If God is Almighty, Omnipotent, All knowing etc.etc.............
If God is Almighty, Omnipotent, All knowing etc.etc, why he do not stop the bad things his children are doing (especially in his name) and the bad things happening with his children?Absolute power corrupts, as the story and so called spiritual leader continues
Yes we are almighty and all knowing but since most do not remember where we come from then we use our free will, our thoughts and emotions to do everything going on in the world.
God is everything and since we are part of God, we create. Simple as thatWe all came from Adam and Eve? Only a few truly really believe in Creationism, where most people believe or think there was a Evolution process.
Yet I do think these is some form of higher energy out there we are connected to it and we can tap into it and we can be a co creator of it.Bet you can't say that while standing next to a black hole. Simple physics tells us that without energy, you wouldn't even exist. If you were to stand next to a black hole, you would evaporate and be gone.
I don't fear death like most people or to speak my mind.
1. If I were truly convince by Yahweh (one and only God) my only choice. was a black hole of hell or Less pain, I might repent his offer
or
2. Only the Bible was the only thing thing that made sense and everyone else deserves hell
Both are not plausible, so no worriesWhy are neither plausible? If God exists, why is it implausible that the Bible would be His word?
It's full of human errors and human emotions and human flaws, even in it's literal translation. A god of that level of power would either have none of those flaws or would not exist. Of course this would be hypothetical to the idea of god being possible.
Well, it certainly documents human errors and human emotions and human flaws. Perhaps I haven't seen enough of your postings, or it's just been too long, but what exactly are the flaws of God's that you're thinking of?
God is one big human error. As for the flaws of God's... You seriously need me to list them for you or have you read the bible? I am sure you could guess what I think they are. God expresses a wide range of human qualities... Rage anger and hatred are among them and mercy being none of them. Don't look back or I'll turn you into a pillar of salt! Let's kill all with a flood because I failed to make you flawless even though I knew you would not be, that's what I get for making you have free will... Wait we don't have free will, we are controlled by our nature.
You mean humans have a wide range of attributes that reflect God? Horrors!
I've had the conversation before. Either you think God made man or you think man made God. God is not Zeus, but if you try to turn Him into that then it's easy to pick Him apart.There is no real way to define a being who is fictional.
But a being who is NOT fictional can be defined, even if it's difficult.
Because if He did then:
A) He would short-circuit the cycle of prophecy in his word (the Bible.)
B) He would rob us of the very humanity that so many people hold against him in the first place. If we couldn't choose not to love, we could never really love. If we couldn't choose to not do good, we could never really do good.
A lot of people seem to think it would be better if God simply changed us over to robots, incapable of thinking or deciding for ourselves. Would it? Would we really be better off that way?Because HE sent HIS teachings and instructions to show man how to live in harmony with one another and man refuses to hear and follow what HE instructs. He is being patient with man and there will come a time that HE has appointed HE WILL remove all who refuse to come to HIM.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
To repentance means that we turn from our ways and back to HIS ways which HE has prescribed. People refuse to do that because they want to be their own god and do as they please.
TORAH, the first five books of the holy scripture prescribe the Father's teaching and instruction. If a person is outside the TORAH that person is called rebellious by the Father. HE is waiting for people to come back to HIM and do what HE instructs before, once again, and for all time, destroying the rebellious and disobedient.Okay, this thread has been open for a very short period of time and I'm already sick and tired of looking at it at the top of the forums' main page.
So, let's get this out of the way and make sure it's easy to understand for those who are of limited understanding, which is most likely many people who read here.
First off- IF a G/god existed, and said G/god was "almighty", Omnipotent(isn't this "almighty"?), All knowing(omniscient), then I must inform you that you left out one other critical description of said G/god and that would be Omnipresent, which btw- would make the G/god automatically and virtually not probable, not possible or most likely non-existent.
Secondly, if any individual who holds a belief within the constructs of irrationality, such as an Omnipresent, Omnipotent and Omniscient being/entity would have any dealings with the creation it created, which it gave consciousness and free will, to bestow choice, is absurd.
Thirdly, the actions of the individuals on this planet only have themselves to blame for what is happening in this world. Yes, you may see yourself as being a responsible person, but under closer scrutiny you would hold water? or would you be- most likely be in a ditch taller than you stand.
Enough said on this topic. Have fun.Interesting conclusions. Maybe the whole point was to take a lump of carbon and turn it into a diamond.
"I must inform you that you left out one other critical description of said G/god and that would be Omnipresent, which btw- would make the G/god automatically and virtually not probable, not possible or most likely non-existent."
IF the OMNIPRESENT non/God you detest and try to prove to those of us who KNOW HIM quit thinking of you for just one blink of and eye, YOU would cease to exist.
So as it is, HE LOVES YOU with an everlasting love that will never, ever, ever, ever quit.
albeit the outside influences that infect your mind screaming for you to say what they want like a puppet
FATHER, please, DO SOMETHING AND STOP THIS abusive ranting on your children. DO SOMETHING like you did with Saul or maybe Nebachadnezzer. that would be my 'human' choice. Make him into an animal that eats grass. YES!
PLEASE DO SOMETHING YAHVEH!
This creature made in YOUR image is so distorted SHOW IT ITSELF IN THE MIRROR OF YOUR LIGHT AND TRUTH PLZ PLZ PLZ PLZ PLZ FATHER.Yeah, God. Go ahead and DO SOMETHING.
Save a few starving babies in Africa maybe.Techniques of Bullying
from hub posted by ksinll
Why is it so clear to so many, but not to the bullies?
and when someone tries to deflect the bullying what happens?
more and more and more and more and more
do we see this happening here against those that KNOW YHVH?
That may be reason enough to get them banned from hubpages there is tons of proof all over the "Christian" bashing
wars
- Negating or criticizing your efforts without giving direction for improvement
- Contradicting your ideas without justification
- Using emotional guilt trips to prevent you from retaliating
- Neglecting to give you important informationI know. You need to stop being such a bully Shallah. Leave Cags alone. How dare you ask God to turn him into an herbivore?
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I am going to and there is plenty of evidence for those that have the right to remove Hubbers from the site.
Be nice folks this forum is for everybody, if you don't like someone, ignore them, don't report them, unless they threaten to psychically harm you
I have reported all the posts and comments that contain abusive words. and will continue doing so
Those that are doing it could be arrested..
not merely banned from HUBPAGESArrested for asking God to save African babies?
No no no not the church Police, please please anything accept the over populated Church Police.
Thank God I am not Muslim right now.
arrested. lmao. i think you have lost it bud. or are you smokin bud?
I could never get as high and one sided as Religion dose.
If that were actually true. So what? You must like to hear yourself talk. Again, it's that ego thing.
Now, ask me I care that you believe that?
Not likely. I have searched inside myself and no one, not you or any other living creature on this whole planet is going to tell me that there's some G/god inside me.
I know the teachings of Jesus and you don't follow him. You claim to believe and know him, but your actions state otherwise and this post is just another tirade from someone who was abused when younger. You can tell yourself all you want that you're healed, but if that was the case, then you would have no reason to talk about it, unless you're attempting to boost your own self esteem or self confidence.Did your really read the teachings of JESUS. Did you read where HE took a whip and overturned the money-changers tables in the TEMPLE and sent them flying in every direction?
HE was violent with sickness and disease when he drove it out of people and with the pigs that went screaming and squealing down a the hill and drowned in the lake in the pigs
YOU haven't read everything Jesus did because it isn't all written down. And why do you keep saying that since HE IS GOD and YOU DON't EVEN believe in HIM?
So YOU DO believe in HIM after all you keep pointing HIM out to me as an example.Nice sentence structure. I've read the bible several times. I've researched it specifically, as well as world history and many other topics connected. I know what the bible says so you can quit posting scripture.
Pure fiction.
It all isn't written down? So you're claiming that the Bible, including all other religions which mention him, don't have the full story, but you do?
I'm not saying he is a G/god. I'm willing to go out on a limb and believe the man existed. But, not as any religious book would speak of. I don't believe in him. I have no reason to believe in him. I have a clear understanding of his overall message, but without the mysticism junk most apply to it.
I point him out hoping you would see how your actions are counterproductive compared to Jesus' true teachings. Yet, your ego continues to get in the way of such attempts. Please grow in awareness so that you can see that your ego is preventing you from understanding and perceiving.YOU are attacking our FAITH. YOU are saying in indirect words that I and all other believers in YHVH, or what scripture tells us that we are idiots for believing a fairy tale
that is verbal abuse.No my dear. I'm attacking the irrationality of your belief. The basis for it.
Actually, it's not verbal abuse by any stretch of a lunatic's mind, much less the people who think irrationally and form irrational beliefs based on nothing more then someone else interpretation of Jesus' teachings.Keep it civil. Debate and disagreements on points of substance are okay, but personal attacks, petty bickering, trolling, and thread hijacking are not tolerated.
Be helpful and supportive. We’re all here to learn, so please be constructive when providing feedback.
you telling me my beliefs areb irrational is abuseYou reported my post. Btw- what did you give for a reason? I am curious what you told the moderators? If you don't mind, let me know.
I asked you what you said? I know they are going to see for themselves. I was asking you what did you tell them.
This way I will know if I am going to get banned from the forums or not. Being banned isn't anything new to me and you reporting post after post, after post is only going to get you in hot water with staff, especially if they are not valid reports.
So, do try to be honest with me and tell me? If not, then I will take your actions as that of someone who isn't going to be honest with me.
And, if you're not going to be honest with me, then I know you're not honest with yourself to begin with. If you don't like that logic, then you're welcome to report me for insulting you yet again.
However, it's a proven fact that you cannot do anything, like love or honesty, without first being both to yourself. If you're not with yourself, then you won't be with other people. This cannot be avoided. Sorry.
wow, you are one angry christian. shouldn't your god be backing you up here or does he have such faith in you that he lets you fight your own battles. oh, wait, you aren't fighting them, you're trying to get others in trouble by making them look like they are bullying you. strange behavior for someone who claims to be a follower of an ever loving god.
No, it's not strange for members of her cult. It's a requirement!
go read CS Lewis and Josh McDowell then come call us idiots
Call you idiots? You're the one that made the statement. I didn't say any such thing.
It was actually C.S. Lewis and Josh McDowell who gave me that final push into atheism.
Yes, I'm serious.ShalahChayilJOY
So what if Cagsil thinks most people who are ancient or Spiritual side are irrational. So what if Cagsil adds very little to their constructive lives. So what if states God dose exist then claim he is not an Atheist. If Cagsil opinions is not strong enough in changing himself first, allow him to self destruct, no skin off your nose.
Remember- Thou Shall not Judge. let he be Judge by God
What's next? are you going to report all Atheist, then after that go after most People who do not agree with Yahweh?
Telling God to turn someone into an animal that eats grass sounds much more like bullying than a theological disagreement.
????
telling God? No one tells God to do anything and I know that, duh
I KNOW that my God won't do that, that is my frustration and sorry humor.
These guys are merely putting people down left and right and have been told over and over and over and over that their words are
demeaning
belittling
offensive
humiliating abuse
they refuse to stop
Techniques of Bullying
from hub posted by ksinll
do we see this happening here against those that KNOW YHVH?
That may be reason enough to get them banned from hubpages there is tons of proof all over the "Christian" bashing
wars
- Negating or criticizing your efforts without giving direction for improvement
- Contradicting your ideas without justification
- Using emotional guilt trips to prevent you from retaliating
- Neglecting to give you important informationBy this standard everyone arguing for or against should be banned, EVERYONE!
@Chris Neal-
Here is the explanation you apparently missed in this thread.You are wasting your time. Chris does not believe in reading anything and will simply make facts up to suit. He is here to fight only - no debate or discussion with this one. He seems to get his jollies this way like a lot of christians.
Hey Mark, I know. It's like talking to an empty hand.
And you say you don't call names!
Again, interesting...
Hmmm....
I think someone said they hate hypocrites? Was that Mark Knowles?
And wasn't it Mark Knowles who said it was rude to talk about him when he wasn't there after he had already done it about me and then would proceed to do it again?
Interesting....
Thanks (I think.)
Of course you know I don't agree with a lot of that.
But again, you call names. You asked me where you do that. You don't come out and call someone an idiot, but you might as well.
And I still don't understand you. You talk about what "Jesus meant" but this is exactly the kind of thing you would say that had me believing you are an atheist.Judge not lest ye be.... Nevermind, no one believes that especially not Christians.
On the contrary, some of us try very hard to live by that.
Ironically, it's probably the most often quoted Scripture by non-believers.I have yet to see ANY Christian truly live by that.
Free Will. We have the ability to choose to do good or ill as we please. I believe that people are basically decent, yet within all of us resides the ability to do evil. Which is why we have law.
He is the Rock! His works are perfect. All His ways are just. A faithful Judge, Father, King, Redeemer Who does no wrong,who is upright and just. Deuteronomy 32:4
He shall very, very, very soon. In the meantime He is calling for people to come back to Him and receive power to overcome the 'bad' habits and faults that cause them to not be nice.
The paradox is that while Christians argue for freewill, they are unwittingly arguing against eternal salvation. They have to believe in both freewill and God's omniscience because God could not promise eternal salvation to those he has no control over. Without controlling their behavior he can not prmise that they will eternally qualify as citizens of a Heaven whee there will be no sin. We could argue forever, but they know if they cede to reason the whole thing collapses. How long can we keep saying the same things to people who have already said all that they intend to say?
The hypothesis that God can only offer eternal salvation to those He has control over is a little overstated. Yes, we should willingly give ouselves to Him, but He doesn't take away our personalities.
And if paradox can be true for things like Jesus being fully God and fully human, why can't it be acceptable for God having omniscience and man having free will?
(Yes, Mark, I know you don't accept it, but that's not what I meant...)
Its a simple case of not knowing.....
Firstly who God is, then that result in not knowing who his sons are.
So those you see and crittersize and sons of God most likely are not....and that too is dependant on whether you yourself are not doing the samethings....
Jypocrites never ever ever see God...but they are most vocal in crittercismHow is it that God has given mankind dominion over the earth and the freedom to create what ever kind of society we choose. Apparently the kind of society that we have chosen is hatred, suspicion, greed, killing, war, etc. and we are the perpetrators of these events but we placed the blame on God for the evils that we are doing.
I think that is an irrelevant question.... why? Because his actions in themselves show that he is not All knowing, Almighty and Omnipotent or all good. Take Job for example. God placed a bet with Satan to see if Job would turn away from God.... now if you are an all knowing all powerful being why would you place a bet with ANYONE? And WHY would anyone be stupid enough to place a bet with you knowing that you would lose? So this whole thing about Satan being such a clever liar is idiotic. So anyway, if you are all powerful and all knowing, you would know that Satan is about to destroy the life of your most loyal servant and you are going to let him suffer (because when you go to heaven it'll be all better? That is like cutting off someones Body parts with no anesthetic and then sewing better ones back on.... REALLY?! You may be better than ever but your life was destroyed, mentally.... and for Job, do you think his family and slaves will forgive him or God? Oh, but it's okay, because the Family and Slaves weren't as loyal as Job.....
In the end it just shows that one, God is not Good, and he is also not all knowing or all powerful. In fact he sounds like he is the mirror image of Satan.... perhaps God is a guy with a split personality and he is simultaneously God and Satan.... The Bible is a twisted fairy tale.It clearly wasn't a bet. More of a debate regarding the nature of free will. The whole purpose of life, the bible, job, all of that, is to teach all of us the nature of free will and why there must still be a central focus in all things for everything to work.
It's the equivalent of the Avengers, to let my inner nerd show. Each human is incredibly powerful in our ability to create or destroy. Any large cooperative project, any collaborative effort of any kind, any team of superheroes, no matter how talented or capable or wise the individuals, must still have a central focus and purpose. A team lead that all respect and follow. Businesses use it. The military uses it. It's just plain necessary.
God illustrated to Satan through Job that these beings He created were capable of remaining focused on what's important without being overridden by their own will to rebel if they don't like what's happening. Job's will didn't override and determine that what he found important didn't take priority over what God deems important. Satan attempted to make the point that beings with free will can be pushed to lose respect for or faith in their leadership. God obliged. We all learned something.Face palm, did you read what I wrote, it doesnt matter what the reason for it was, a debate makes it no better, Hello! Omnipotent/omniscient! Not to mention that both the nature of omniscience and the nature of how humanity actually functions negates the idea of free will. Take even the concept of critical thinking skills, for which the believer does not possess in any way, cannot counter act animal stimulus response.
You're missing the point. God is omniscient. We're not. He knows the outcome. We don't. This isn't for His benefit. It's for ours. Life is for our benefit. God wants us to have free will, but we have to be able to wield it responsibly. Everything He has done is to teach us. As we've proven throughout history, we can't just be told. He can write down the ground rules in rock. We'll break them. He can explain it to us. We don't get it. Like children we learn best by experience. Wisdom cannot be given. It must be earned.
Just because God knows what you'll do doesn't mean you don't have to the choice to do it. He still allows you to do whatever you wish. He respects your free will and will not override it, though He's capable. Critical thinking does not lead one to the conclusion that omniscience and free will can't coexist. Just knowing what you'll do doesn't take away your ability to do it.
And yes, our will overrides animal instinct all the time. And many times our allowing animal instinct to override our critical thinking is what often gets us into trouble. We have a lot to learn. That's why we're here.So in other words you are saying god wanted to teach us a lesson of love and simultaneous teach us that he's an evil ignorant monster?
And no you can't choose to do something which is not in your nature or knowingly against your best interests. Hence, why free will is nonsense.But, but - it's the only way they can explain away evil and not make it god's creation. God is only good.
This concept is one of the reasons I rejected their nonsense in the first place and the reason these guys are so aggressive.
This is one of several dichotomies that makes their Invisible, Omnipotent Super Being impossible.Sorry you didn't understand. See above.
What makes God impossible is his very nature, he contradicts every definition that defines him for the sake of what? Teaching us a lesson? How does turning a woman into a pillar of salt for looking back at the destruction of a city by a hateful God teach us anything?
People of faith refuse to read between the lines because it would cause them to question their own faith and prove to them that their own God is not good and has very human characteristics because he is a character created by humans.
A Human's wishlist for a God especially back in those days is some guy with supernatural powers that created everything and deals justice how we would want to do ourselves even though such a being would not actually do such a thing. Or logically need to.
The way you would determine if a lesson is either unnecessary or wrong is to think of an alternative lesson that teaches the same thing.
If I were omnipotent and all knowing why would I need to debate with Satan on the nature of freewill? And if I wanted to teach the human's a lesson on free will I wouldn't need to do it IN THE BIBLE.
Showing you exist to your followers does not negate freewill or free choice. Obama exists, he's the president, he runs the nation, how many people choose to follow him and how many people choose not to follow him.... and how many people just don't care?
You see His actions as monstrous and you're allowed, but that doesn't make it so. Some may consider the training that navy seals go through as monstrous, but it prepares them. Our delicate modern sensibilities make a lot of things seem monstrous to us. We're kind of spoiled.
"And no you can't choose to do something which is not in your nature or knowingly against your best interests. Hence, why free will is nonsense."
If that were true there would be no fat people and no suicides.I'm pretty sure most suicides were 'knowingly' carried out. Someone who chooses to take their own life must override the body's instinct to survive by physically taking action to kill the body. Even fat people, myself being larger than I should be so I can speak on the topic, often eat or drink things they know they shouldn't, that aren't healthy.
Free will wants what it wants. Many times those wants are selfish and don't take into account the affect it will have on others or even ourselves. Free will is powerful and only a life like this could prepare a being to wield it.Sorry you didn't understand. Denial is a powerful thing. Look at the nonsense you believe.
You can eat what you want - it will not affect you - will it?
"Knowingly," against their best interests?The one thing I do agree with and that you make abundantly clear is that denial is indeed a powerful thing. The level of denial it takes to convince yourself there is no God and no power higher than ourselves all while knowing and understanding that each of us are physically made up of a colony of trillions of cells working in perfect harmony honed through generations of accumulated DNA, debating a topic we philosophically disagree on through minds able to reason using images/words/abstract thought/etc. collected over a lifetime and stored in biological matter via technology we invented using those same minds, standing on a planet unlike any other in known existence due to the sheer balancing act of elements and conditions, etc.... takes a phenomenal level of denial. More so, I would argue, than my stance. So, yes, I agree with that totally.
And back to spouting nonsense. It is really complex, therefore a goddunit.
This is why your religion causes so many conflicts. It is not possible for you to be honest and therefore you will always spout nonsense as a defense.The thing about denial is that it is the process by which you believe in something despite the evidence. I can only speak for myself in that I have seen no evidence to support the existence or necessity of a God type being.
I have plenty of evidence that supports some other explanation and for which I choose to believe in only what the evidence shows is not denial.
Like I said, if you are shown that something is not possible, not likely, or in other words, not responsible for a given event, why would you believe that it was? Denial.
Headly, I have shown you in one of your hubs, why it is not logical or correct yet you do everything in your power to defend your point contradicting yourself at every turn.... you are the very definition of a person in denial.
"Free will wants what it wants. Many times those wants are selfish and don't take into account the affect it will have on others or even ourselves."
Wants, you can't not want something that you want? And why would you kill yourself? Why is anything you do not selfish? Suicidals don't do it because they are selfish they do it because they are in pain.
A friend of mine killed himself last year, not because he was selfish but because he was selfless, he believed he was the cause for the pain of the ones he loved, whether or not that was true was not for us to know.
But I can tell you he had a drinking problem for which he fought hard. How can you fight a choice? Because it's not a choice. Hence, why free will is an illusion. think of something you do that you can't stop, in order to counter act nature you have to force it, and sometimes forcing something you have a natural tendency to do, can have unseen harmful effects on you or everyone you know. Freewill and free choice are not the same.Look, I can't even imagine what that must be like and I promise I'm not making light of this. This whole topic is of the utmost importance in my mind. It causes more conflict than any other. Conflict that we actually know enough to now resolve. That's what I'd like to get to.
So I don't mean to come off as harsh or insensitive here. I hate to hear stories like the one you just told and I'm sorry for what you and he and his family endured. But please understand it's still choice that got there. The body cannot be dependent on something until you've willfully provided enough of that substance to make it dependent. True, some are born inheriting dependencies from their mother in those cases where the mother willfully introduced something that her body, and subsequently her child's body, became dependent on. It's still all free will. And it's not always our own that hurts us. The will of others hurt us too. Whether selfish or selfless the intentions, many still get hurt.
That's why it takes the entirety of human existence to really learn. Free will is a powerful thing. Nature rolls right along just as it has for ages. All the things we deal with in this modern age, all the hurt, all the hard times, all of the wars and hurtful actions and all of that are created by us from the day we stopped living in such harmony with nature ourselves and started willfully making our own way.You are really ignorant of the nature of addiction aren't you, and you continue to contradict yourself about free will.
"True, some are born inheriting dependencies" Contradicts "It's still all free will." I am the God of war, I am the God of peace. You can't be both. I am dead I am alive. "Free will is a powerful thing" Free will doesn't exist, you can say God is a powerful thing, but you have to prove a statement before you can assert it, this whole argument is about freewill and whether or not it is real and you assert it is before you prove that it exists.
"All the things we deal with in this modern age, all the hurt, all the hard times, all of the wars and hurtful actions " Are not a product of modern times they are a product of life, if we stop doing these things it is because we have died. every action good or bad has consequences that are good or bad. Free will, following or breaking rules, will not change them.
"willfully making our own way." There is no other way, I am not going to follow someone else's way especially someone who I find either wrong, bad, stupid or nonexistent and even if someone exists and is good it would be wrong for them to decide how I should live, because it's no better than anyone else telling anyone else how to live. Everyone has different things that makes them happy and they should be free to do those things that makes them happy.
The subconscious is powerful, but it has nothing to do with free will. Our conscious mind is in constant check with our subconscious mind. Your conscious mind doesn't want cake, that your subconscious mind saying "go to the fridge and eat all the cake and grab a beer, do it, do it". Your conscious mind mostly will say "dude, it's not even 9 am yet, lets go get a muffin and coffee". We are not aware of what the subconscious mind is saying, but people that are more conscious (aware) make better choices.
Headly, the world and nature being what it is the necessity for such actions as preparing us for such hardships is redundant. And being redundant, to take such action as is demonstrated in the book of Job and be label responsible for it makes God morally and spiritually reprehensible.
Meaning, not only is he a monster but he is also a coward and a selfish prick and not worthy of being worshipped by anyone.
As far as fat people and suicides, yes there would be, why? Because people who get fat don't have a choice, their lifestyle has led to a certain amount of unrestraint (ever wonder where the term weak willed comes from?) the nature of addiction is the inability to choose, your body has chosen for you. As far as suicides go, that is a very stupid example... and shows a certain amount of insensitivity and ignorance on your part to why people commit suicide.As far as allowed, what's stopping me or anyone from seeing this? It's not choice, I can't all of a sudden see a serial killer as a good person and never will.
Look at yourself, trying to convince me that God is good, you have been taught to believe God is a good person and do everything in your power to prove it to me because if I can be made to believe then your life wouldn't have been wasted on believing in someone who is evil.You're assuming way too much about my motivations. I do not ever expect to convince you. I'm simply pointing out errors in logic in a discussion I can't resist. These are questions important to ever human being. They go right to the heart of what it means to be human. I'm not witnessing to non-believers or advancing some religious agenda.
Traditional religion alone is inadequate to explain things. A godless existence, especially at the level we now understand it to be, is also inadequate if you really think about it. I just like to encourage smart people to think and push conversations forward when they get stagnant.I never assume anything, I simply point to things that are true. Things that have been demonstrated to be true.
"I'm simply pointing out errors in logic in a discussion I can't resist."
Did you just prove that you have no free will???? YOU CAN'T RESIST is the very definition of no free will.
You can't correctly define what it is to be human and the Bible doesn't have anything to do with modern understanding of the human condition, it is outdated in that respect.
"A godless existence, especially at the level we now understand it to be, is also inadequate if you really think about it. "
You'd have to prove this statement because it is the most illogical and irrational one I have seen from you lately.Haha. I knew you would key in on my statement about not being able to resist as I typed it. I can and have resisted. But yes I am prone to get sucked into these things just as I'm prone to eat too much. I still have the will to not do either, and sometimes I willfully don't. Other times I willfully do. It's still my choice.
The bible is still very much relevant and should be viewed as fascinating insight into the workings of the human mind in ancient history if nothing else. It has a gigantic impact on life still today, even in these forums. And as I try to illustrate, it fits seamlessly into known history and if we could just strip away all the nonsense humans have tried to make of it over the centuries, and just look at it for what it is, we could learn a lot about ourselves.
DNA is a perfect example of my statement. DNA is a form of accumulated knowledge that makes life possible. For it to work this basic building block that works as a system for collecting and storing successful traits of surviving species had to be established right from the start. It's an organized system we're just now figuring out. It allows us to unlock and understand our existence all the way back to when life first sparked made up of nothing more than simple elements.
The human mind is another example. The leaps in logic it takes to justify our human mind springing up from the raw materials we're all made of takes a much longer leap in logic than the explanation that another 'mind' much like ours existed before it.
The will that drives life is another. The will to survive and procreate is as much a propulsive force behind evolution as gravity is to the formation of the universe. This will has no explanation that doesn't require abundant amounts of speculation.
Not just the level of complexity, but the level of organization involved, especially to the degree we understand it now, makes more sense to have an intelligent designer than to justify as happenstance out of nothing more than cause and effect. There's nothing to prove. It's just an acknowledgement that there's still plenty we don't understand and it would be in all of our best interests to not rule out anything we can't possibly know for certain yet."But yes I am prone to get sucked into these things just as I'm prone to eat too much." You keep admitting to the fact that you can't escape your own nature. That you lack free will.
When people say they are tempted by the devil they really mean, I have no free will. When people say, "it is my nature do do this" it's the same thing as HAVING NO FREE WILL. That is the facts of life, deal with it.
Choosing to do something or choosing to not do something is not a demonstration of free will, it is a demonstration of being influenced to make a certain decision based on the stimuli in your environment. By having the stimuli you have been manipulated to make a certain decision. You can't decide to go against your own nature because that is not something you can decide to do. Take the controversial issue of homosexuality. If you are not gay you cannot choose to be Gay, the idea is revolting, it's against your nature and you could never find it enjoyable.
I know I could not.
"The will to survive and procreate is as much a propulsive force behind evolution as gravity is to the formation of the universe." your entire argument is against the possibility of free will I hope you know.
"This will has no explanation that doesn't require abundant amounts of speculation." That's also not true if you know anything about physics, check out my last hub on my Final words as an Atheist. (it just means I don't intend to write another hub on Atheism, but I could change my mind. Depends on what happens to me, my decision is influenced by many things beyond my own will power).
"It's just an acknowledgement that there's still plenty we don't understand and it would be in all of our best interests to not rule out anything we can't possibly know for certain yet."
We need to rule out what is NOT possible or even Likely before we can find what is ACTUALLY the cause or the answer to ANY question we happen to ask, we cannot be open to every possibility for the sake of being open minded, that's not an open mind, that's a stupid mind.Free will is a will apart from God's. You cannot prove God's existence, therefore you cannot determine with any certainty that free will exists. This is all true, and I understand what you're saying.
But understand I am not contradicting myself. Free will didn't always exist. According to Genesis, nothing had a will of its own until Adam. This includes early humans; homo erectus, habilis, heidelbergensis, neanderthalensis, sapien, etc. 99.9999+9999% of evolution happened without it. Life was propelled by a will that had to be there. A will to survive, fight or flee, protect and procreate. That will had to be there. According to Genesis God instilled that will into all living things.
From Adam on it was different. And humanity has been the exception to nearly every natural rule since. So, all of us who are from both natural human and Adam's bloodline, there is a duality. There's our natural, physical form that has natural instincts honed over numerous generations, and then there's the willful actions born of our willful minds.
I realize you won't accept what I'm saying, but hopefully you can see how I'm not contradicting myself. I have natural/instinctual drives (Id), I have rational/reasoning motivations (ego), and I am mindful of moral implications/God/society (superego). The difference is, unlike every other living thing, humans can be propelled by their own will. They can imagine and invent things to make life easier or more fun or more convenient. But we can also destroy, often through those same motivations.
Free will's effects can be seen in the dawn of civilization in Mesopotamia when the Sumerians became the most prolific inventors to ever exist. Humans have not been the same since. Genesis can be matched up with key events that lead up to the birth of those first civilizations; sumerians/egyptians/indus valley culture/akkadians/babylonians/greeks/romans. Down to the number of centuries in between each event. The flood, the dispersing of populations at Babel, the first city (built by Cain according to Gen 4), all of that.
I'm trying to point something out that has nothing to do with church. Nothing to do with Baptist/catholic/protestant/Jewish/Muslim/Christian. If I'm right, and I have good reason beyond faith to think I am, then civilization is the result of free will's introduction into the world. First through Adam, then planted like seeds through the dispersion of Noah's descendants at Babel into an already populated world. This is what an open mind has led me to. So far, this one explanation lines up well with what we know and manages to not contradict any known facts. At least nothing that anyone has been able to illuminate thus far."But understand I am not contradicting myself. Free will didn't always exist. According to Genesis, nothing had a will of its own until Adam. " From this statement on you are pretty much assuming everything else because you do not have the knowledge or evidence of these things to determine whether or not they are true.
I cannot bother to comment more than that because at that point we would be arguing the mythology of your view of "free will". You'd first have to prove the existence of free will and then you can argue it's "origins".I know. Like I said before, if free will is a will apart from God's, and you can't prove the existence of God, then you also cannot prove the existence of a will apart from His. However, there is significant evidence of a dramatic change in humanity in the same time and place that Genesis is set in that does not as of yet have much of an explanation. When you can't prove it one way, you look for the next best option.
Often experts look to technological capability to try to determine when exactly humans changed as far as mental capabilities. For example, some see the increase in artifacts around 50 thousand years ago as a sign of when humans adopted 'modern behavior', like this ...
"Some scholars argue that humans achieved anatomical modernity first, around 200kya, and only later did they adopt modern behaviors around 50kya. This hypothesis is based on the limited record of fossils from periods before 50kya and the abundance of human artifacts found after 50kya."
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_humans)
I'm doing something similar here that maybe explains
.... this .....
Early Inventions: The ancient Sumerians were very smart. They invented, amongst other things, the wheel, the sailboat, and the first written language, frying pans, razors, cosmetic sets, shepherd’s pipes, harps, kilns to cook bricks and pottery, bronze hand tools like hammers and axes, the plow, the plow seeder, and the first superhero, Gilgamesh.
They invented a system of mathematics based on the number 60. Today, we divide an hour into 60 minutes, and a minute into 60 seconds. That comes from the ancient Mesopotamians.
Some Mesopotamian words are still in use today. Words like crocus, which is a flower, and saffron, which is a spice, are words borrowed from the ancient Mesopotamians.
Government: The ancient Mesopotamians created a government that was a combination of monarchy and democracy. Kings ruled the people. Elected officials who served in the Assembly also ruled the people. Even kings had to ask the Assembly for permission to do certain things.
Law and Order: Law held a special place in their civilization. Sumerian laws were not written down, but people knew what they were and they knew what could happen to you if you broke the law. The Sumerian laws clearly said how you had to behave and what your punishment would be if you did not behave correctly. The laws that were later written down by the ancient Babylonians were, for the most part, laws first created by the ancient Sumerians.
You can see why we say that these were extremely clever people. We owe them a lot!
Cities: Ancient Sumer was a bustling place of three or four hundred people. (Just kidding.) The ancient Sumerians built many cities along the Tigris and the Euphrates Rivers. Archaeologists believe that their largest city, the city of Ur, had a population of around 24,000 residents.
(http://mesopotamia.mrdonn.org/sumer.html)
.... and this .....
http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingLists … ncient.htm – “From around 3500 to 3000 BC there were great and very sudden advances in craftsmanship and technology, which culminated in the working of copper, stone mace heads and ceramics.”
.... and this .....
http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingLists … ulture.htm – “As the first great civilizations took shape in Sumer and Egypt, a people of unknown origin who were centered in the Indus Valley in modern Pakistan and India began constructing their own series of cities. These were as remarkable as any the world had yet seen, and at the same time trade flourished, and a system of writing evolved.”hhhmmmnnn
tell me
would you prefer to be loved because someone chose to love you
or because you were unable to choose to love freely
but had to
is it truly love if it is forced?
demanded?Love, I think, is what I find most astounding about God. Just the fact that He doesn't have to love us. He didn't have to give us the ability to choose whether or not we love Him back. Life as we know it was created for us just so we could exist with our own minds, make our own choices, and choose for ourselves whether or not to love Him or even acknowledge He is there at all.
He could have just made us like every other creature in the natural world, content with simply surviving and having no will that compels us to do anything beyond that. Works of art and music created by grand orchestras and inventions and technological capabilities and architectural achievements and great literary works are all products of the gift of the free will that God gave us. These things wouldn't exist without it. But that same gift also gives us the capability to be destructive, to be selfish and self-serving, or to convince ourselves He doesn't exist or that we could actually know how He could have done something better.
Can you imagine if God were truly cruel? If He didn't love us like He does? How incredible is it that He actually does? That He'd create all of this for us? That He'd actually sacrifice His own son because of His love for us? I often get into an analytical gear and lose sight of how amazing it all really is.
"The bible is still very much relevant and should be viewed as fascinating insight into the workings of the human mind in ancient history if nothing else." I never disputed this statement, I am disputing it's significance as a historical record, it is a record of human beliefs and mythologies, but it cannot be viewed as an accurate account of anthropological or even prehistoric events.
Your statement on DNA and the human mind is also a statement made out of ignorance for the subject. DNA is accumulated but to say it had to be established from the start claims knowledge you don't have and you contradict your statement about what it is in the same sentence. You say it's accumulated knowledge? But how can knowledge of an established start? You don't know what DNA is or why it happens or why it works. You are half right, DNA is basically cellular memory. It is built by the cell to establish a working collection. What works is used again. But it does it on such a basic level a child could do it. Your knowledge on DNA is outdated as well as your knowledge on the mind. Leaps in logic? You don't have the basic concept of the workings of the han mind to argue this point and toy know it so stop trying to use it as an example to someone who has been taught about the workings of the brain.
Please don't just make blanket statements declaring me ignorant without including what known facts I have contradicted to make you think so. While I am not a geneticist or neuroscientist, I assure you I am way more knowledgeable on the topic than you're giving me credit for. I am not opposed to being wrong, but if I am I would really appreciate some specifics so I can learn and correct my misunderstanding if that's the case.
I think my point about DNA is pretty clear. If we're going to knit-pick the specifics about at what point it first began or whatever then we're going off-topic. Basically, a fundamentally simple system was established at the cellular level where each cell would replicate and hold an exact copy of the same 'blueprint' of the organism they are a part of. From the Cambrian Explosion on at least, this was in place. Everything that happened since depended on it. I don't think I'm taking any large leap here. It's carbon-baring sugars and phosphates that just so happen to bind together in such a way that cells can pass on successful mutations to future generations. Accumulated knowledge, so to speak, that makes life as we know it possible.
The mind is something I've studied way more extensively and know what I'm talking about when I talk about leaps in logic. I am not speaking haphazardly about any of this. I back up to the best of my ability my every belief and my every comment. If there's something I have in error, please feel free to point it out, but give me specifics.Do you know that DNA looks like the Hebrew aleph bet? Since YHVH spoke Hebrew, that means that our DNA is HIS words keeping us alive. Research it and eventually you will find it is so.
So you have a degree in one of these science's? You studied psychology, brain physiology, you know all the different parts of the brain and their functions? You know exactly when life occurred on earth!?!? Wow, you must have a time machine!!!! Or be really old! Or have studied this where???? I think I have made somewhat of a point since you have admitted to no formal training and I have had what? Formal training? I don't think I need to tell you, since we have already been through this and I have had this conversation with you before.
Sorry for the sarcasm and snide remarks but you will defend your point if view to death even if it is shown to be wrong you will find a way to make it appear right.
God stepped down from HIS throne on the highest heaven and 'put on' mortal human flesh. He walked the earth and healed the sick and cast out demons.
HE destroyed evil
HE prevented the stage IV cancer that was supposed to have spread through my entire lymph system from killing me and I did not need chemo or radiation.
HE hung on a tree after having been flogged, beaten and having HIS flesh shredded to empower us to conquer evil. THE SPIRIT in man is stronger than the flesh..
After all HE took from Roman soldiers, HE cried Father forgive them. They don't know what they do." with force and power
The spirit of a man is what sustains him
flesh profits nothingSince God is often Satan in the OT, I'm not surprised people are confused.
- Larry Wallposted 12 years ago
0God created mankind with free will. Jesus came to earth so that he could die for our sin, "Whosoever believes in me shall not die but have everylasting life." Because God gave us Free Will, everyone has not chosen to believe in him and until that universal belief is accepted, there are going to be problems, wars, abuse and all of the other things we experience on a daily basis. We had paradise once, I cannot tell you if it was a small garden or covered the world. I cannot tell you if we lost it overnight or over time. I cannot tell if that when we had paradise we were as we are today and after paradise, the process of evolution had to start over. I cannot tell you and no one on this earth can tell you.God has a plan. Believe in that plan. Quit trying to second guess or outsmart God, you are going to lose every time. Believe in him. Believe in the teachings of Jesus, love your neighbor, help your fellow man. These are the steps we have to take.
Define free will.
"Quit trying to second guess or outsmart God" it's not about second guessing him it's about proving to the believer that God is fictional and also showing the believer why we have chosen to NOT believe in him.... his very nature contradicts his very nature.Define free will:
My right to Believe in God as the Creator of the Universe and to believe that Jesus is may savior, if I believe in him.
My right to believe in an after life.
My right to disagree with you.
I cannot prove God exists. I accept it on faith.
You cannot prove that God does not exist.
Thus wanting us to think about it as you pose the question is really a waste of time.
I have thought about it. I believe I and other believers are right and you and those that think like you are wrong. The one difference is that the believers will pay for you in the hope that you become believers. You cannot pray that I quit believing, because you have no one to pray to--if you do, then you must be a believer of some sort.
There are a lot of fourms and questions all dealing with this are similar issues right now. No one is offering anything new. I doubt that one mind has been change because the issue is being discussed in an antagonistic format--I will accept my share of the guilt--but plenty lies on your end.
Why do you care if people chose to believe. What better alternative do you have for them--the freedom to be released from all moral restraints. I will keep my faith and follow my Lord.
Thank you.So - as far as you are concerned - the opposite of believing the nonsense you believe is no moral restraint?
What would you be doing if you didn't believ in majik?It shows me that when you do not have a valid argument, your only recourse is to result to insult and you are placing yourself above God in that you think your viewpoint is the only viewpoint that people should have. I will definitely pray for you--you need all the prayers you can get.
Belief is not free will it is free choice, there is a difference.
Free will is the ability of agents to make choices free from certain kinds of constraints.
However, you are constrained to choose something for which has no evidence for it's existence and it requires faith to believe. But just because you chose to believe in it doesn't mean that you did it through free will.
"You cannot prove that God does not exist." I can prove that the Biblical God doesn't exist and I have many times, and I have in a hub I wrote, but you, having no free will cannot go, oh, I only choose to believe in what is true, I believe because I have no choice, I have faith.
faith is opposed to reason. Faith is confidence or trust in a person or entity. So even if you found that your God were not true, you would still choose to believe in him and you would be in denial over that choice being wrong or your God being proven wrong, you would contradict the very truth that God is fictional.
I don't care if you believe in something that is nonsense, but when you publicly announce you believe in something someone else does not you invite a response positive and negative. So why do I respond to you? Because I am here to debate anything for which I disagree with, I am here to argue FOR what I feel is right, true, real and GOOD.
"What better alternative do you have for them--the freedom to be released from all moral restraints" I am totally repulsed by this statement.
I fight for what is moral and good. There is no freedom of moral restraint and never will be. No matter what the ideological belief system is (except nihilism and chaos anarchists). An atheist is a very moral person, I am an extremely moral person.
Look at the things I am against:
Hate, murder, rape, violence of any kind towards others, incest, slavery, racism, sexism, theft, breaking any sort of social contract (adultery, back stabbing, lying, cheating, or any other agreement between two or more people). How am I immoral? You can follow whomever you choose, mickey mouse, donald duck, superman, it doesn't matter, just don't preach to others and EXPECT to not be argued against, I am not mad that you are doing it yourself to me, I am angry that you are a total hypocrite,
You first qualify what will be your question with the information "If God is Almighty, Omnipotent, All knowing etc" but then your question "why he do not stop the bad things his children are doing and the bad things happening with his children?" is not based on your qualifier but is based on your own assumption that God is not stopping what (you likewise assume) is bad. In other words, the only way your question makes any sense is if we start with two giant assumptions; first, that things His children are doing and things happening with His children are bad - ans second, that He is not stopping these.
You (we all) are looking at Niagara Falls through a 12" B&W tv screen and evaluating it's beauty and wonder. God is in eternity, we are in time . . . He is before, during, and after all that we experience as our current now, He is not bound by time, not restricted by one moment passing as the next takes it's place before about be intrudes, etc, etc. There is no analogy in our material reality that properly compares; if 2 ants start at one end of a field and head for the other end, and one covers that distance in 16 minutes and the other one covers it in 14 minutes, that is inconsequential to us, we would make no distinction but say it takes an ant about 15 minutes to cross that field - but to the ants that 2 minutes may seem a lifetime. Or, if my teapot is whistling and after I turn the burner off you enter the room, you may ask why I'm not doing anything about the whistling teapot - because it takes a few moments for the burner temperature to drop enough for the teapot to stop whistling.
In other words, how do you know God is not stopping what you are calling "bad" from happening . . ? . . because it doesn't look like it to you, because it's not happening fast enough for you? I reject your premise, I believe God IS stopping evil and is doing so according to His own plan and purpose, whether it fits yours or my own private notions about how things ought to be or not."In other words, the only way your question makes any sense is if we start with two giant assumptions"
"God is in eternity, we are in time . . . He is before, during, and after all that we experience as our current now, He is not bound by time, not restricted by one moment passing as the next takes it's place before about be intrudes, etc, etc."
Both are assumptions.
In a hypothetical argument an assumption based on logic is allowed, God follows no logic and there is no logic to the existence, nature, character or necessity of any sort of God.
There is not enough evidence to even conclude such a God exists.
Any statement about God or the validity of the Bible is pure assumption and speculation."In other words, how do you know God is not stopping what you are calling "bad" from happening . . ? . . because it doesn't look like it to you, because it's not happening fast enough for you? I reject your premise, I believe God IS stopping evil and is doing so according to His own plan and purpose, whether it fits yours or my own private notions about how things ought to be or not."
If this is his way of "stopping" evil, then he is a very impotent or sadistic and evil God.artblack01 ~
MSr - "God is in eternity, we are in time"
art - "Both are assumptions"
It certainly isn't an assumption that we exist in time - whatever terms we want to use for it and however we understand or misunderstand it, we observably exist in a circumstance of past, present, and future . . . this, as I'm writing, is not the same moment (however we phrase it or understand it) as the moment you wrote what I'm responding to, and when you read this it will not be in the same moment I am in now writing it, etc. There's no assumption about it, we live in a linear time reality.
As to God existing in eternity, outside of time, this is no mere assumption . . . I didn't just make that up or conclude in my own head that this must be the case - this is what God reveals to us as the truth in Scripture. I recognize you reject Scripture as owning and presenting any manner of authoritative truth, I'm only saying here that asserting that God exists in a timeless eternity is not mere assumption, it is based on an assertion made in a text I do count to be authoritative . . . and that in itself is no mere, or pure, assumption, or speculation . . .
art - "Any statement about God or the validity of the Bible is pure assumption and speculation"
I do not, and did not, assume or speculate that there is a God and that the Bible presents a valid revelation of Him. I was not raised to believe this and I assumed nothing. I read the Bhagavad Gita, Dhammapada, Koran, Apocryphal books, etc, etc. I examined the textual record of the ancient documents and investigated the historic development of translations, etc, of the Christian Bible. Because God is an invisible Spirit and because so many so indiscriminately adopt some goofy religious scenario in their lives doesn't mean that anyone who believes there is a spiritual reality in addition to the material reality we can observe, that any statement about God or the validity of the Bible, must be operating under the circumstances of mere assumption and pure speculation.
art - "If this is his way of "stopping" evil, then he is a very impotent or sadistic and evil God"
You're evidencing my point; so if you walked into a room and found one fellow with a cookie and another without a cookie you would 'know' this was unfair? If you walked into a room with a whistling teapot you would know that nothing has been done to stop it's whistling? Because you can't see any purpose or plan to how things are falling out in this world you know that (if there was a god) that God must be impotent? Because He's not doing things your way He must be unable to do anything at all? And, how do you come to determine God must be evil? Where do you get a notion of evil, or good, from? If there is no God then how do you come to own the idea that there is even such things as good and evil? Where did good and evil come from?You make many assumptions.
Let's begin:
First you took my statement out of context, cherry picker.
When I said both are assumptions I meant God is eternity and He is not bound by time. The main assumption being that God exists. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough but then again you never asked for clarity you just jumped to another assumption. You can examine any records on mythology and assume they are true all you like, it doesn't make them true.
"Because God is an invisible Spirit " Another assumption on the existence of God.
"one fellow with a cookie and another without a cookie you would 'know' this was unfair? " The answer to that is obviously no.
"Because you can't see any purpose or plan to how things are falling out in this world you know that (if there was a god) that God must be impotent? " Any reference to a God having reason or purpose or being a part of our lives in any way shape or form is assumption on your part and is not a believe I have. I do not believe in God, I don't think God has anything to do with reality. And I don't see the state of anything good or bad as proof of his existence or nonexistence, they have nothing to do with each other. The commentary about his impotence is more of a snide joke.
I don't see God having any place in this universe, he is an unnecessary explanation for anything needing an explanation, he is the God of the gaps, meaning things whose causes are unknown for you would be caused by God for me would simply be, NOT YET KNOWN. God has nothing to do with anything.
Good and Evil are human concepts of pain and justice. Anger and happiness. It is a social understanding that didn't come from any deity, every culture has a different deity and a slightly different sense of good and evil but they are all based on the same concepts of feeling good or feeling bad and the causes and effects of ones actions. God has nothing to do with it.It's a good thing God believes you're real or you wouldn't be ...
And it's a good thing Thor is real or we wouldn't know when it was gonna rain, it's a good thing Ra is real or we wouldn't have the sun, it's a good thing leprechauns are real or I couldn't get my pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.... Etc.
To think God has anything to do with anything is completely foolish, especially when one has a more realistic alternate explanation for just about everything we have now.Well, I don't particularly like the name "God" as it does imply so many different images of 'gods' made in the minds of men
There I agree with you on that-god, the idea any individual holds of a supreme being made in their image boxed into their box
How does the earth stay in its orbit around the sun?
How do the stars stay in place in the sky?
How is it possible that H2O can take the form of liquid, steam or ice? How does snow fit in there? is it ice? sort of but not quite?
Why do you believe there is no Creator that made man in His own image and hung all the stars in the sky and called the sun, the moon and all the things created into being and order?
I cannot prove otherwise
I just would like to know why you don't believeAll those questions have answers and thanks to the Internet you can easily obtain them. I recommend minute physics on youtube for a fun look at why the earth doesn't fall into the sun. All those questions have been answered. The reason I don't believe in a creator is because there doesn't need to be one. Many of the events going on in the world and observable universe have been explained and on a small scale replicated... If you have a question, one that you would normally attribute to a god, you can find a non-god type answer in science websites.
I have a hub that explains why god is not needed for the universe to exist.
There are many smaller reasons but the biggest is god (no matter what you call it) is man made, and nothing more than an idea to explain what we cannot, or could not at the time.
Not true. The only reason to state that to know anything about the validity of God of the Bible is to make an assumption.
Using the Bible as the basis for what we can know about God, there are indeed parameters and sets of logical rules.It's all assumption on believers' part because they are told to believe or else.
None of which actually coincide with true logical rules. Again, using the bible to validate itself is foolish.I take it back. You make assumptions about a lot more than I gave you credit for.
You don't actually know everything I've said about my own experiences, do you?Even though I don't think JC is not the only light , the way and the truth. I don't know what your experience have been or what goes on behind your eyeballs Chris,
I can only go by what makes good sense, some of JC makes good sense. It's just not the be all and end all bible attitude that makes us all get along with other group egos or myself in a friendlier world.
Cagsil dose not consider well enough where you are coming from and where you are going and just calls spiritual ideas BS , irrational or foolish is his theme. Until some day he will have to accept the fact that we are all spiritual being first, having human experiences, for now it makes him madder than hell.I don't like to assume too much about anybody, even Cagsil, because I have done it in the past and it usually came back on me. And also because I hate it when other people do the same about me.
It's difficult to carry on a decent conversation, sometimes. The trick is to not get too carried away your own self.No trick Chris. With the right knowledge and a specific understanding, it is something which you can teach yourself.
I'd like to think so, but as my interaction with you and with others has taught me, it's something I must be constantly on guard against.
Even though there are a few things I don't agree with Cagsil on, I do have equal respect for him, even if he dose not for me or a few others, it's hard to tell.
Chris being against many things is likely your source of your problems or being against is at least part of the problem. Christianity are against a lot forms of people and things , in which dose not treats other groups and individual with the same equal respect, see the viscous cycle.I think you're assuming an awful lot about me.
I know myself well enough , to tell you what is real about me, and will say so, Just tell me what is real or not real if my response is not true about you.
It's an assumption not based on reality that we are spiritual beings or that there is a spiritual realm.
I'm sure you've had experiences Chris. I'm not doubting those or dismissing them. I guess you really don't seem to understand that the bible itself cannot validate itself. It's ignorant to claim it should be able to do that, when we as a collective species don't do that with any other book in existence.
Any information gathered and displayed in any book published to the masses is meaningless when it comes by a mystic based ideology.
All religious books in existence are exactly that- based on mystical theory. Decades ago it was deemed that anything in the "mystical" realm and stated would be considered intellectual dishonesty of the individual.
There's absolutely NOTHING mystical about Human Consciousness, which is the cause for "mystical" theories. It's thinking without understanding. Mystics in the day and age Jesus walked the Earth were in greater numbers than those who were not. Why? is a question you should be asking yourself. If you don't know, then go find out.
And, I'm sorry, but it has absolutely NOTHING to do with a G/god that is written in any book on this planet.
It does have to do with where humankind was at in it's own development.
Aside from that- As I have stated time and time again on the forums, and apparently must repeat myself.
The G/god of Christianity is not probable or not possible. Omniscient, Omnipresent and Omnipotent cannot exist in one place. To say that it does, is completely outside any rules of logic.That last statement, I agree with.
Which is why I've said often that you cannot fit God into human conceptions. I thank you for not dismissing my experiences, and I'm sure you probably disagree with what they ultimately are. If you read the hub, you would know that I was not the kind of person who was ripe for any kind of "mystical experience." I wasn't lost, I wasn't looking, and I wasn't surrounded by much in the way of religion or spirituality, let alone "mainstream" Christianity. I thought it was all pretty silly, when I bothered to think about it at all.
I understand what you're saying and once upon a time I would have agreed with you.
The way the Bible validates itself is by fulfilling prophecies written thousands of years before. It's the only religious book that does that. But it's hard to wrap your mind around it. I have trouble. Admittedly, I'm not the smartest guy in the room, but still, I know there are things that don't make sense and I have to take on faith. I hope that doesn't cause you to grind your teeth, but the fact is that there is enough that has been proven to me that I can do that.
Chris, to use the Bible as basis for anything, contradicts any logical and testable facts we currently have about history and nature. Nothing in the Bible has ever been verifiable without making assumptions to it's claims. We assume that just because someone states that they saw God or they spoke to God or they witnessed something miraculous then we can conclude that it's true. However, there are flaws in that idea. First of all, we can not take testimony as a statement of fact, otherwise we might as well conclude that the millions who have either seen or experienced UFOs and Alien Abductions are telling the truth of are not mentally unstable. Second, most of the testimony written in the Bible is based off of oral statements from several generations, we can conclude that they are not EYE witness testimonies. There is NO first hand written testimony confirming anything miraculous the Bible has said anywhere in history. Any true event is based off of primitive understanding of events in their world and most natural phenomenon we take for granted they would attribute to a deity's influence and will.
Be careful of absolute statements. I assume what you mean is that none of the miraculous things in the Bible can be independently verified, but you have stated that nothing at all can be independently verified, which is not true. There is archeological evidence all over the place in the Middle East that verifies the history of the Bible.
I wrote a hub. I say it often, but it just saves time. There's a reason I accept the Bible and it's not blind faith and it's certainly not because of any "indoctrination" I received in my youth.
To someone who has never known God, either intimately or vicariously, I can understand how the Bible seems to contradict all kinds of logic. I used to be that person who thinks that way. But the fact is that even if you don't believe, there are too many unanswered questions to simply dismiss the Bible. It's also why so many are so eager to believe in extraterrestrials.I am not saying that there is not some historic basis to the Bible, it was written by people of that era, it was their primitive explanations for the events that occurred and therefore they would use what we would call supernatural explanations for things they had no logical or rational explanations for. They would make up stories, characters and even sometimes events, like explaining how and why a volcano destroyed an entire city (they were all sinners and God was punishing them).
The most you can do with the Bible is treat it like a book of folk tales and legends and myths. There is a history present but it's to be taken with a grain of salt. Same with extra terrestrials, what is that UFO in the sky, an alien? of course it could be a plane or a bird or even a reflection. It's called arguing from ignorance, you can't explain something so you argue that the only thing it could be is God or UFOs or Ghosts, but you have no evidence of this, yet you still suggest because there is not an explanation that you are aware of it must be God.Yeah, I understand what you're saying and to some extent there is truth to that. All I can say, I have heard from God. I know that usually cuts off a lot of people right there, but if you read the hub you'll see what I believe and why. It's not arguing from ignorance. You may very well say that I'm arguing from delusion (you certainly would not be alone) but it's not from what I don't know.
I won't say what I think of that since you probably already know or think you know what I would say. You do know what I mean when I say arguing from ignorance (which is the same as arguing from delusion)? You see, hear or feel something for which you have no rational explanation for nor evidence to prove concretely something for which you believe, so you use a supernatural explanation for which no one can truly repeat or document such an event with any amount of accuracy.
Ever hear of the origins of the Chupacabra? It's a great story and I love to tell it.I looked it up in Wikipedia. Quite a story!
Okay, I understand you a little better now. Actually, I learn quite a bit in these forums.
Had I just had the one experience, I would be more likely to agree with you. But I've had a string of experiences that fit a pattern far too neatly, and fit in with my understanding of God. I have had experiences that I couldn't explain and didn't fit the pattern and I don't know what to make of them. I'm not that quick to try to explain things.
I've also had experiences that I don't discuss.
It's also not like I never think about and wonder about these things. I've thought long and hard about them. I'm not the smartest guy, it's true, but I'm not the dumbest either.If you feed a dilusion you become more dilusional. Like exercise. The more you exercise the stronger you get. The more you study and think and read the smarter you get. The more you do something ye better you get at it. I spent a long time looking for falsehoods and truths and studying the difference between reality and fantasy.
So you're going to tell me about my own experiences?
Isn't that a bit presumptuous? Do you like it when people do that to you?
IF: God exists and is as described, then it is not an assumption, it is, in fact, the only possible explaination. But, that is if God exists and is as described. One question. How the heck did Moses know to describe something in such a way so as to keep the argument going for 3-4000 years? Must've been a pretty sharp oookie.
There are plenty of religions that start out that way that have existed longer than 3000-4000 years, Hinduism is far older. There are also new religions growing rapidly, like Scientology, and will probably be around for ever as well.
Many believers should know heaven can't exist on earth either, so why do they purge and kill in his name trying make the world a perfect place when they can just wait to die to go to their sanctuary?
Well, with an attitude like that, how do you expect to get to Oz?
"If God ... is all knowing etc.etc....."
Just to be on the safe side, I sent him a postcard.Why would all knowing, omnipotent God admit to making a mistake:
1 Samuel 15:10-11 where he said he "regrets making Saul king?"Because those men who invented him were mostly illogical primitive men who had no idea how a god should think. But even more worrisome is modern educated humans still put faith in these old story tellers and run their lives according to those old myths.
Rumour has it around the Palace that he said the same thing about Obama!
I'd wager this is just as true as any other thing you have suggested on these forums and based on equally factual evidence.
WAS I ADDRESSING YOU? The answer...maybe. How rude! Unlike many atheists, you don't seem to have a clue what is written in the bible. Because I say this...you think that, and because I said that, you think this. Just assume that I don't make any sense to you, leave it at that, and go bother someone your bothering bothers.
It sounded like you did in the comment after he commented, you shouldn't have commented to his comment if you weren't commenting addressing him in his comment to you before your last comment....
No problem, Dude. Your assumptions concerning me are amusing, but not worthy of response anymore. So yes, I have no problem ignoring your posts. The same as I do the troll who posts in technicolor, the homophobic divorcee, or the ridiculous Mormon priest. Perhaps you should converse with them. I'm sure some commonalities can be found among you guys.
Maybe god's priorities are just different. I remember one day I had a cup of water beside me on my desk. I reached out to do something and almost knocked the cup over. I thought if I were still a Christian, I would thank God for not letting me spill water all over my desk.. But it occurred to me that even as I sat there millions of Pakistanis were drowning in flood waters What allows me to thank God for some petty favor while he ignores the pleas of those who are really suffering. What allows me to think God has a purpose for my life but not for the other guy?
That is a very good question. I've seen many Christians get angry with God because they thought they had done everything right and then tragedy strikes. They forget that life's not fair. There own arrogance leads them to think God is here for the sole purpose of protecting them. Then something bad happens and they say "Why? I did everything right, I go to church, I pray, I don't work on Sundays..."
My motto is: S;i* happens to good people. And the reason S;i* happens to good people is there is no God watching over them.What indeed? Why would you even think that? If God has a purpose for your life, He most certainly has a purpose for the Pakistani's as well.
I would say it's sad that so many atheists and agnostics accuse us Christians of thinking that God only has us in mind and not the other people's, but there are too many who live that way. Which makes it even more sad.Yes, if the Pakistanis are Muslim, then your god does indeed have a purpose for them! The same purpose he has for anyone else not a christian.
They'll dry out quickly in the place he's got planned for them! :lol; Don't believe me, Chris? Ask any Southern Baptist. 
Yeah, but I'm not a Southern Baptist. I have my own beliefs and thoughts about these things.
So do Southern Baptists, Chris! Read your bible!
I do! And nowhere does it say I must be a Southern Baptist!
If He were to stop His children from doing certain things, would that not make His children robots? We have free will; He is certainly omniscient, so He knows what will do. But, He still gives us that choice. Yes, it saddens God to see His children do wrong in His name. But, if He were to stop us from doing those things, would we not be perfect?
If he knows what we will do before we do it then how do we have a choice? Isn't free will just an illusion then?
I'm asking if we really have free will if our future actions are set in stone already.
They are not set in stone, He just knows what we are going to choose. For example, if I went to pick the blue shirt from the closet, He all ready knows. Does that mean that the blue shirt was set in stone? No, I could easily choose the red shirt. He would know that I would choose the red shirt as well.
If he already knows the decision you make, then your not going to choose something else, because you've already made the decision. The outcome is already set, all your doing is getting to it.
So if someone offers me a million dollars, I have the choice to say yes. God just because of his all knowing, knew I would say yes; this doesnt mean that I have to say yes, I can also say no, it is just that he would know that too
If he knows what choice your going to make, regardless of whether or not you "THINK" you actually have a choice there, then it's already predetermined. Otherwise he couldn't possibly know until you made the choice.
Why can't He possibly know?, is where I am coming from...I mean there are many things I can not explain about Him. Like why does he love me so much, that he chose to die on the cross for me, I do not know but I am sure glad for it! God is unfathomable. I do not have a reason for everything he does.
He can't know your choice if you haven't made it yet. If he does, then the future is predetermined. That's my entire point. It's not that he CAN'T know it, just that if he does, then it's already set, which means free will/free choice doesn't actually exist, since you've already made the choice. If you hadn't, he wouldn't know the outcome.
And what did you do that was so atrocious that someone else needed to die for you? I have a child of my own, and I love them very much, and I would die for them. At the same time, I'm not going to commit suicide for them without a reason. If it's a choice of their life or mine, then yes, I will die for them. However, I'm not going to sit here and put a bullet in my head just because I love them. And before you bring up him dieing for our sins, the sins of the father being passed on was absolved in Ezekiel, long before Christ. Unless you went out of your way to purposefully commit a sin, you were sinless before hand. He couldn't have died for your sins then.
This is not to say that your God doesn't love you though. He/She/It probably does.Lucky for me I can find reason for everything I do and Ultimately there is a reason for everything
But if he's omniscient wouldn't it be impossible for him to NOT know everything possible whether you choose it or not? I admit the concept of omniscience is hard to wrap my head around.
Yes autumn, I would have to agree, God and His attributes are very hare to fathom and understand.
The point is, that if he knows EVERYTHING, then you don't have free choice or free will. He already knows what your going to do before you do it. I'm starting to see however that it seems people don't want to understand it, which is their choice.
Why? Why is it not possible that God will know what will happen but the fact that we don't means we must make a choice? Does this also mean that if you can see the outcome of a situation that is developing (because of wisdom and experience) but the person(s) involved in the situation cannot, your knowledge of the outcome means that thier choices are predetermined and they therefor lack free will?
First, your trying to apply a human condition to a divine being. Secondly, it's no where near the same as what I'm saying.
What I've tried to explain, which seems to fly over most everyone's head, is that there is no possible way to know what choice anyone is going to make long before they make it, unless the future is set in stone already. For God to be omniscient, means that he knows a choice your going to make 10 years from now, when you haven't even been presented with the choice yet. If the result of that choice is already set, then you don't have the freedom to choose, nor do you have free will, because everything your going to do, is already laid out.No, I haven't missed that. You're not even close to the only person saying that here. What I'm asking is, if God can see what's going to happen but we can't, then why can't we have free will? Why is it predetermined as if we have no control over it? It seems paradoxical, what I'm saying, and I am obviously not exlaining it well because it's not just that people disagree with me, which I would expect. It's also that they don't seem to get what I'm saying at all, like when they argue for predestination I just go the totally opposite direction.
I don't know. Maybe I'm not smart enough to explain this idea I'm wrestling with.You don't understand it - that is why. What you are actually doing is defending a nonsensical belief.
Many people have explained to you why it is nonsense, but - because you must believe it for your god to exist - you are clinging to it and - sorry - making no sense at all when you try and defend it.
If it was possible for us to make a different choice than the one that god knows we will make - that would change the future and your god would not be omniscient.
So - either - 1, we have a choice and it is not predetermined, which means your god is not omniscient, or - 2, the decision is made already and set in stone - in which case your god knew what the outcome is going to have been and did not give us free will.
Make sense?Actually, Mark, you're the one not getting it. The way God is described, He's the creator of all things, including time and space. Yet you seem to think He'd still have to conform to it. You see time as linear because that's how it is to us, and you project that same linear view as if God would be restricted by it, only able to go back and forth between past and future. So in a dynamic future, it really gets confusing.
Think about it this way, if God is described as being omnipresent, then He's everywhere right now, He was everywhere yesterday, everywhere a hundred years ago, and will be everywhere a hundred years from now. Now, just put all of that together. It's all still Him. He's the same in every moment, unchanged, unaffected by time, existing outside of it. God is also described as having a different perception of time than we do. To Him there is no difference between a span of time 24 hours apart or 1000 years apart. To Him they are one and the same.
It also describes God as not knowing our decisions, like Abraham/Isaac. We create our choices because He made us creators. Through making choices we create something that didn't exist. There is no past/present/future to God, so our choice either IS because we made it or ISN'T because we didn't. It's not like God didn't know yesterday, you decide today, tomorrow God knows. It's that every choice we made was created by us and became part of existence, therefore He knows. If we hadn't created it, He wouldn't know of it.
I know it's hard to wrap your head around, but it is possible for there to be both free will and an omniscient God.No - what you said does not make any sense. Your god is already there in the future when the decision is going to have been made so my points stand, your god does know what I am going to have decided and you are speaking nonsense to defend your ridiculous beliefs - sorry.
I see you need to feel that you have superior comprehension skills and understand something that I am incapable of wrapping my head around.
This is one of the many reasons your religion causes so many fights and I would appreciate it if you stopped insulting me in this fashion. Thanks.It's not a need to feel superior. It's that what you say makes it obvious you don't get it. It's nothing against you. It's a hard concept to grasp, especially if you give no credence to the idea of God actually existing. But it makes total sense.
Take the story of Abraham and Isaac. If God had never put Abraham in that position then Abraham never would have had to make that decision, therefore it wouldn't have existed, therefore God wouldn't know what Abraham's decision would be. Once the situation existed so that Abraham had to make a decision, that decision became part of existence, therefore God knows.
Even explaining it is hard because our language in itself is so intertwined with the concept of time. Trying to explain anything like this is hard to do without using words like 'until', 'after', 'once', or 'yet'. To God, He experiences every moment everywhere simultaneously. There is no past/present/future. There's simply what does or does not exist.There you go again telling everyone what it's like to be God.
I'm simply describing what the bible describes. It's all there. I'll provide references if you care to see them. The whole theme throughout all the books of the bible, the whole point of life in general, is free will. The creator gave us the power to create things not of His making. He made everything in existence except for the choices we make. He knows everything about everything except the choices we make. It even says He knows the desires of our hearts better than we do. But we're capable of creating our own choices and decisions. To God, there's no past/present/future. There is what does and does not exist. If we create it, it exists, He knows about it. If we don't, it doesn't, He doesn't.
I get it just fine thanks. You are simply talking nonsense - no offense.
You do not have greater comprehension skills than me and telling me you do over and over is insulting. This is why your religion causes so many fights and I would appreciate you not insulting me any further - thanks.
Impressive knowledge you have of this god thingy's inner thought processes and experiences. Not that you are trying to feel superior or anything.Mark, given the many conversations I've had with you and the many conversations I've read between you and others, it's pretty obvious here that you're projecting your own stuff onto me. This whole superiority thing is your bag. Not mine.
No - not at all. You started out telling me you understand where I do not. This is standard fare for your religion.
This is why your religion causes so many fights.
You just don't understand because it is too difficult a concept for you to grasp because you are so busy being self righteous and superior to defend your insane beliefs.That's what a conversation is. You and others were discussing a topic. I could see through your descriptions a fundamental issue with how you are looking at things that's making it difficult to see how omniscience and free will can co-exist, hence the subject of the forum, so I attempted to illuminate that issue to hopefully encourage understanding. I'm simply participating in a discussion. How you react to what I said, or perceive what I said, is all you.
Here is the problem. I cannot know for certain no God exists, and you cannot know for certain a God exists. We cannot PROVE something doesn't exist that has never been seen. We can only prove something does in fact exist. We can prove that bats exist, but we can't disprove aliens exist.
This is where you come in. YOU have to prove the existence of God, we can't disprove God exists.
We are showing you paradoxes and using logic. You are giving God more and more abilities and powers to allow him to exist within these parameters.
The truth is... Yes such a God could exist, but just not likely. No more likely than Zeus or Peter Pan or the Tooth Fairy. The only evidence you have is a 2000 year old book that is riddled with violence and contradictions. You keep stretching words to make them fit. One day is like a thousand and a thousand is like a day could mean anything. It could mean somedays he gets a lot done and then he goes surfing for a thousand.
I have to say it is a little insulting when you assume we are unable to understand. We do understand what you are saying, but what you are saying is just a way making it possible for there to be a God within these parameters and we don't buy it.Can you not see that that's exactly what's happening here, just the other way around? And it can be just as insulting. Often, science is pitted against the idea of God and those that do will claim superior comprehension over others simply based on their allowance of God. That alone is often used to then assume believers are unable to understand.
You're right, neither can be proven with certainty. So, I too am using logic, and grounding it in what the bible describes. It's not me expanding God's capabilities. It's our expanded understanding that makes us more capable of better comprehending the full expanse of his capabilities. We grew, He didn't.
The 'violence' and 'contradictions' you see are due to an inaccurate grasp of God and what's being described. When your grasp of the view you're opposing is flawed to the point that it reduces that opposing view to something simplified, it's easy to then argue against it as illogical. So, I'm trying to offer a more complete understanding based on what that ancient book says.
If it simply said "a day is like a thousand years", and stopped there, then you'd be right. That could mean anything. But it doesn't. It goes on to say the second part, "AND a thousand years are like a day". This can only mean one thing. There is no difference to God. 1 day = 1000 years.It doesn't imply knowledge of the future, it only implies time passes differently to him. This is what I'm talking about. You assume it can only mean one thing because that is what you want it to mean.
How does that imply time passes differently? Either saying "a day is like a thousand years" OR "a thousand years is like a day" would imply that. But both only have one meaning. 1=365000, 365000=1.
Please explain how that can mean anything else.A Day is LIKE a thousand years. A thousand is LIKE one day. It could mean perception of time.
It could mean (as I've said before) that on some days he does a lot and cramps in 1000 days worth of stuff and the on he goes on vacation for a 1000 years and during that time he does only 1 days work.
It could mean many things, but it certainly doesn't imply time. YOU implied the time because you want it to be there.
No - you spoke nonsense and said that you grasped something I do not because I was having trouble understanding.
That is why your religion causes so many fights - you think people who disagree with you don't understand something that you understand when in fact you are speaking nonsense.
I perceive you to be claiming a greater understanding than me because that is what you claimed. Please stop insulting my intelligence in this fashion. Thank you.And you mean to tell me that you're completely unable to see that you're doing the exact thing you're accusing me of? Often in the same post.
Of course. As a Christian - you are doing unto others as you would have done unto yourself, so I am doing it right back at you like you asked me to do.
I see you missed the irony. Not surprised - too busy defending an untenable position to actually think. This is why your religion causes so many fights.
In any case it is not quite the same. I am sticking to reality - you are invoking majik and saying I don't understand when I disagree. Not the same thing at all. You probably don't understand that.I do understand that's how you see it. Reality includes God, and is therefore not "majik". We differ in opinion on a fundamental level. Nothing wrong with that. But what you don't seem to get is that I'm not 'doing unto you' what you're 'doing unto me'. You're projecting your own stuff onto me, making me into something more than I am. Manufacturing something you can then be appalled by.
I know you'll probably just dismiss this, but I'll throw it out there anyway. One of these days you should take some time to pour through your comments. Don't look at who or what you were replying to. Just look at your comments. I think you'll see a pattern there. You basically have the same conversation over and over again, repeating many of the same things, though you're talking to totally different people who have totally different views, even from each other. The reason for this is because you're not actually having a conversation with these individuals so much as you're arguing with yourself through projecting your own stuff onto others. Your view of Christians is similar to that of an extremist Muslim's view of the collective 'great Satan'. Most every Christian in your eyes is 'doing unto you' the same thing you're accusing me of now. I promise, that's not reality.That is just your perception. The fact is that I interact very differently with people who do not claim to have a greater understanding than I do.
I am not projecting anything on you either. You specifically claimed to have a greater understanding and in a very condescending fashion also.
So - I assumed that is how you wanted to be spoken to.
In any case - god is not included in reality. Reality is measurable and exists. Your god thingy exists outside of reality according to you. Now you are claiming it is part of reality? Bet you don't understand why that is a contradiction either.
Still - at least now you are saying we have a difference of opinion - not that you understand something I am incapable of grasping. That is a start.I'm sorry that's how you perceive what I'm saying. I don't mean to be condescending. I respect you as a very intelligent individual. And I don't make assumptions one way or the other about what you know or understand. I can only work with what you say. What you say reveals a flawed grasp of the God you're arguing against. With those flaws in place your arguments often make sense. Fix the flaw and they don't. That's what I was trying to do.
For example, your comment about me saying God exists 'outside' of reality, making it seem like I contradicted myself. That's not true. Actually, according to the bible (and not me), it's both. God both exists "physically" in Heaven where He observes life from His throne. It also says that His spirit is everywhere, and that no creature is hidden from His site. In fact, it consistently makes that distinction.
And not to point out the obvious, but if the claim is that God created reality, how could the creator of reality not be part of reality? In that sense, reality wouldn't exist without Him, therefore He's an integral part of it.
I never said, and never meant to imply, that you're incapable of grasping any of this. I would expect the same of you if I made some statement about a topic that you're well-versed in that made it obvious to you that my grasp wasn't totally accurate. I want you to correct me. I wouldn't waste time arguing with you if I didn't respect you and value what you have to offer in the conversation.And there you do again. Telling me that you understand something I do not.
This is why your religion causes so many fights. I suspect that your inability to grasp this is a product of your desperate need to feel superior.
You don't even seem to be able to understand basic concepts. If your god created "reality" it must have existed outside of reality - or reality already existed and it did not need to be created.I am not, and do not feel, superior to anyone. There are things you're stating about God I know to be inaccurate based on what I've studied for myself. There are some things I'm going to have a better grasp on and some things you're going to have a better grasp on. That's just reality.
And speaking of reality, the view you're suggesting about that basic concept you say I'm unable to grasp.... your view only works if God were not a participatory player in that reality. In this case, the creator of that reality. That's how He's a part of it. He's the creator of it. Without His action of creating, there would be no reality. Therefore reality is dependent on His involvement. Without Him there would be no reality. That's how He's also a part of it.And once again you claim superior understanding. What have you "studied" exactly? Only the one majik book - right?
Sorry you didn't understand. Let me try and explain it more simply for you.
For your majikal super being to have "created reality" - it must have existed before reality existed. Therefore it exists outside of reality.
In any case - reality is measurable. Your majikal super being is not measurable. If it existed in reality - you would be able to show it to me. And you cannot - therefore your understanding of reality is flawed.
You have now reverted to telling me I am wrong and you have superior understanding. I could say god is a bowl of petunias and you could not say I was wrong, just that you disagreed.
This is why your religion causes so many fights.You're so condescending, Mark. There's no need for that. I'm not sure how you read what I'm saying, but I can assure you I'm not being as ... whatever... as you seem to think.
I get what you're saying. I'm not sure how you don't get what I'm saying. Probably has something to do with your total lack of respect for me. But, I'm an idiot, I'll try again.
Yes, I have studied the bible. God reveals His nature to us through the 'book of scripture' and the 'book of nature'. I've studied both. I've also had life experience. This is all related.
But in regards to what we're discussing specifically, the bible addresses it. Like I said before, God has a "physical" form (image/likeness (Genesis 6), face/hands/back (Exodus 33) in heaven. Then there's His spirit, aka immeasurable, which is everywhere (Psalm 139)....
Psalm 139:7 - Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence?
As I'm sure you're familiar, God exists in 3 "forms". The first is outside/before/after existence. The second, His spirit, is here there and everywhere.
We're talking about the God of the bible as described by the bible. So yes, that is my source. If I use how He was described by these authors over 2000 years ago, it illustrates how God can be both everywhere and exist outside of space/time/universe/reality.
You seem to think that this same Being who is described as capable of creating reality is still somehow bound by the rules of the reality He created.
Just because you simply have something wrong doesn't make me "superior" because I point it out. You describe God in a way that is not supported by scripture. Seeing as how that's the only source we have, whether you think it's "majik" or not, if you're going to argue against Him existing you should at least accurately represent how He's described.I did. Majik.
Sorry you didn't understand - or address my points. Your argument is nonsense - as is your majik book. It is not that you understand something that I do not - you are speaking things that make no sense. Nonsense.
Let me try again. As you seem to be having trouble wrapping your head around this.
If your god existed in reality - you could show it to me. Can you do that?
And this is only one god we are talking about - yours. There are billions of others. The bowl of Petunias for example.
Or 3- God is capable of knowing the future without interfering in our ability to freely choose whether we will do action 'x' or action 'y'. Because we are responsible for the choices we make, and that is in the Bible.
But he breathed life into us, right? Is there not something of us in him then? Who else could we be but who we are with such a beginning? We have to be who we are. There is no choice. That is, if you believe your book of myths.
Yes, He did breath life into us. It's not so much that there some of "us in him" as there's "Him in us." So, yeah, there is a choice. That's in the Bible, too.
This does not make any sense, and you did not address the point that was made. Odd that you understand so fully what god is capable of - and it always boils down to exactly the same thing - majik.
I don't know why you guys don't just start using the proper word, because it is always majik when god does something that is impossible.
And then you go on to accept that it is a paradox. I wonder if you actually know what you are saying half the time.
Is is a paradox or does god make the paradox vanish with majik?Why Mark! How crushingly overpowering you are! So manly! So superior! I just can't stand up to your overwhelming logic!
Of course, you're wrong, but still overwhelmingNot that you are here to tell anyone they are wrong.
This is probably your most honest reply so far.
It makes me crazzy when I'm listening to a debate and I see and agree with the point that both parties are making... but can't totally agree with either.
As far as predestination is concerned? I think it is more like comparing when we are born to a log falling into the Mississippi River up around Chicago. Unless the natural order of things are interupted, it is predetermined where the log is going to go. What condition it is in when it reaches the Gulf of Mexico is a totaly different question.
There must be 1,000,000 events possible that the log might encounter along the way, few "if any" are predetermined. But it will either reach the Gulf still being a log or be scattered in part, along the bottom of the river as decomposed matter.
Some things in life are predetermined from the point when certain decisions have made. Such as ... the tree didn't have to fall into the river.Yes I agree, Jerami. Christians do remind me of soggy logs with their reasoning abilities
YEP! soggy logs is one analogy!
Thing is It isn't just Christians who are all WET.You are right again, Jerami. Also Muslims, Mormons, Hindu, or any other group who believe in any of the traditional gods.
But you aren't claiming to know for certain what time and in what condition the log will appear. You are merely speculating future events, like betting on the ponies.
There is no way for us to see the future for certain. Even if you traveled at the speed of light for a years out in space and a year back, you would not come back to the future. You would come back to your new present. Because you can't travel back in time you don't get a glimpse of the future.
If God has knowledge of the future then our decision have already been made or he knows what we will choose. What's the fun in that.
The only possible way it makes any sense is if there is no God. It's sad, but right.It is predetermined that one of the ponies will win.
And if you sliped a mickey to half the ponies you would know which ones wouldn't win.
I think I get what it is your trying to ask Chris. You want to know why God can't know all possibilities of everything that were ever going to happen to you no matter what choice you made. I can't say that's not possible. What I can say is that in order for him to know the EXACT choice your going to make, instead of the possibility of you making another choice, then it's already predestined for you to make that choice. You may feel like you have control in that situation, but if a being already knows the exact choice you will make, then you have no control over it, though it may seem like you do.
Now what it seems like your talking about is probabilities, which is whole a different scenario from being Omniscient.That's a good theory but it's not exactly what I was saying. I write a lot of posts late at night when I'm tired. What I was trying to argue is actually paradox, which I've been somewhat forcibly reminded is something that a lot of people simply can't accept. For instance, the whole idea of God coming as a man, therefor being both fully God and fully man, is something that many people simply can't accept.
I can dig it.
From a purely human logic (and this is a logical statement) it is either/or. Either God's omniscience extends to forever and He knows everything that is going to happen, therfore man has no freewill and is predestined for whatever he does, OR man has the freedom to choose what he will do and where he will go, thereby cancelling God's omniscience and nullifying predestination.
What I'm saying is both/and. Both God is omniscient, therefore He knows full well what will happen in any and every given circumstance, and we are not, therefore we are responsible for the choices we make.
The two most likely responses to that are:
1) That is not logically possible so I must be wrong (depending on who posits this it may be followed by epithets, insults and general derision, or not, some people are very nice,) or;
2) That makes God a really horrible being since He knows what horrible things are going to happen but He allows us to go through them anyway.
As for the first one, if God does exist, then paradox is just part of the landscape. Jesus is fully God and fully man. The God is who three persons but one essence. If you know God exists, then you have to accept it. It's not easy, I know it's not, but if it's true then you must accept it.
As for the second, all I can say from my own experience is that if you know a loving relationship with God (and it certainly goes both ways) then you know He's not. He does a lot of things that I don't understand, but I don't need to. And I know how that probably sounds.I've taken my time in formulating a reply to this Chris because I want to be understood. I don't want you to think I'm disagreeing just to disagree, you are after all entitled to your own opinion. This is just my opinion on the matter.
For God to exist, he must exist outside of time and space. Within time and space we contain logic and reasoning. We are part of the space-time continuum and we can only identify things that are in it. If we step outside of it, then we cease to exist with in it. We do not know how to step outside of it, nor do we know if it's possible to re-enter it once outside of it.
The concept of God then, knowing what we know about space-time and God both, while not ludicrous (at least in my point of view) is in improbable. If he does exist though, then he is outside of space-time and knows nothing of space time. He exists without knowledge etc. This is of course my opinion which uses both what we do and don't know.
Of course, being outside the time stream itself, it's possible that he is able to see all branches of it if certain choices are made in certain ways. This is of course, going back towards probabilities as he would be playing the odds when trying to force events on being he gave free-will to. It's probable that A will occur, but in the time it takes for them to get to B, something may change and they may jump to D instead. That is him seeing probabilities though and not actually knowing the future, but knowing the different probabilities that exist.
I hope this is easy to follow and I apologize if it's not.This is a very interesting concept. If I'm understanding you correctly you think God exist outside the time-space continuum and he would be (as you said) without knowledge of space time.
If I am understanding this correctly you've invented another paradox and please forgive me if I've missed something but, how could God who is unaware of the space-time continuum create a space-time continuum? Did he lock us in something he himself doesn't understand? How can he be all knowing and unaware that he created something that he doesn't understand?That's the entire point Rad Man. If he exists outside of it, then he has no knowledge of it, yet he is suppose to of created it and all the beings it. I can't explain it, but for some reason, as I have found when looking deeper into it, there are a lot of Christians who assume it's possible.
Yes. Based on the revelation of God about Himself in the Bible, it's entirely possible and indeed likely.
God is not boxed in by materialist assumptions. He is omnipresent, which means that if there is indeed an "inside" and an "outside" to the space-time continuum, then He is present both inside and outside.See know you've explained it differently than EinderDarkwolf. He stated that some christians think God has no knowledge of time. I pointed out and I'll do it again. If God exists without time, why would he create a world for us with time?
I'm still formulating a response to the initial posting, so I'm not sure. Let me think about what he said and what you asked.
I like your honesty Chris. I think I recently saw someone accuse you of being dishonest. I was about to step in, but you were doing fine on your own.
Of course they assume it's possible. They have to make the illogical logical to keep the faith. They want it to work therefore it works.
If I understand correctly, Einderdarkwolf's idea of God (and possibly yours too) is one that, like a human being, would have limitations placed upon him that the Bible does not. Yes, God does exist "outside" of the world in that Judaism and Christianity do not subscribe to pantheism but instead believe in a personal God, not meaning that we believe we each have our own god, but that God is a person, distinct unto Himself. But He's not limited in what He knows.
I have to say I am confused to what Einderdarkwolf thinks because he doesn't appear to describe his personal beliefs. I don't subscribe to pantheism, because that makes the assumption that there was or is a god. Although it is a neat way of being an atheist and still believing in a God (kind of) or of being a Christian and still understanding nature, I think it's just that, a way of speculating how we could have a God in a world very void of a God. That's all any of this is, trying to tie in a God to this world. I think it's fascinating when you get seemingly intelligent people trying to rationalize what God may be like, just to hold on to the idea of God.
I see what you're saying.
On the other hand, if there is really a God, it would be important to understand whatever we can about Him.
Understood, and appreciated. I also didn't want to respond reflexively, but wanted to think about it a bit.
I'll admit I'm a little lost here. Why must God exist outside the continuum? Why can He not exist both inside and outside? I know this is only your opinion, so I'm not arguing, but I am struggling to understand. When I read the Bible I don't see a God who exists outside of logic and reasoning. I see one who created logic and reasoning, and who sometimes chooses to work outside of it.
Again, I'm struggling to understand. What you are describing is certainly a god but not (in my opinion) the omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent God of the Bible. I guess there's too much about where you're coming from that I don't know (no pun intended.)
Again, this describes a god, but one that is limited by time and space, even though he is "outside of it." At least if I understand you correctly. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
No, I think you explained what you are thinking well enough, I'm just not sure of the why. You've given me a lot to chew on.God came into our space-time continuum through Jesus and that is how we can know God.
From what I've read about space and time, if your outside of it, then you cease to exist in it. It's like the argument of the glass being half full or half empty. Either way it's still got something in it. If you empty it though, both sides have to agree that the glass is empty because it contains nothing. By the same token if you fill it, both sides have to agree that it's full. When talking about space and time, there is no halfway point. It's either in space and time, or it's outside of space time. There is nothing both in and out. When it's in, it has a form, energy, and a molecular structure. When it's not, it doesn't have any of these things.
With having taken the time to really think about this, can you tell me which passage or passages in the Bible directly say that God is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient? I don't remember it ever saying such a thing. I know at one point it says that he is the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End, but I don't remember it saying he was omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient.
Everything we know has limitations, no matter how much it is wished otherwise. I'm sure you personally can understand that much. Everything that exists inside of our universe had limitations on it. What I was stating though, is a god who exists outside of space and time, and is able to see all possible answers to all possible choices and where they branch off. It's different from actually knowing the future before it happens, yes. If the future is already known, no matter what, then it's already determined, which is the entire problem. However, if he's seeing every possible choice and how it branches off, that's something different all together.
I'm sorry that it was not so easy to follow the first time and I've tried to break it down the best I could.Interesting that you choose to put limited on God while others avoid the paradoxes but giving God more and more powers. For instance, as I've said before the paradox you've created is that how and why would God create a world for us with time and space when he clearly would not understand it in the first place.
Others will simple avoid this by saying God in both in and out of time and space and that God can't be fully understood by us because of our limitations.
I for one find it silly that a God wouldn't have a beginning and an ending as everything we can see and measure does. Even more silly is that God is seen as male. Why? I don't know, it seems to me that where this is male there is female and mommies and daddies.
I also find it silly that a God would create time and space for us when he has no concept of time or space himself.
Everyone (well not everyone) just trying to find a way for a God to exist in this very natural world.What you actually wrote was easy enough to understand, it's just that I struggle to understand where it's coming from. I guess my biggest difference, and the one I've had the hardest time overcoming, with you and with many of the other people who argue that the whole "predestination v free will" debate is false because either way, God cannot be God, is the insistence that God has limitations. When I read the Bible, I see a God who has no limitations (other than self-imposed ones, basically God cannot tell you He does not exist.)
In the Psalms, David asked repeatedly where he could go that God would not find him? There are other verses that imply the three omni's. Certainly those words don't appear in the Bible, but the concepts are very much there.
It's been said many times that God entered space and time through Jesus, and that's true, but God has certainly affected space and time in other ways as well, not the least being the creation of the Earth.
What is the point if your god already knows your fate before you're born, Chris? There is no use to run the program at all. Skip to the chase, as it were! Chunk most of the folks in hell and get on with it!
It makes no sense and I'm a logical type guy. I suppose YOU would say this is how god made me! Do you think god makes us with good common sense or is it simply acquired with experience? Why is it most who can't see an invisible god are more logical than those who do?
Are they? I'm not so sure about that.
I've known a lot of Christians, and they tend to run the same gamut as those "who can't see an invisible god." I've known non-believers who I wouldn't trust to cross the street by themselves, and I've known believers who, by the definition you've given, should NEVER, EVER believe in God because they look at the world through sensible glasses.
I don't have all the answers. But I do know God doles out common sense to who He pleases. And it's not deficient on either side.
Yes, if you believe God has knowledge of the future then your choices have already been made. If you believe God has knowledge of a possible future then you may have free will. You can't have it both ways, free will and an all knowing God don't go together. That's the paradox.
I agree that it's a paradox. I was just under the impression that an omniscient God would have knowledge of all possible futures and also the future that your choices ultimately make. It doesn't matter to me whether we really have free will or if it's an illusion, I'm still living my life.
Two points:
1. The only way God can know what we will do before we do it is if it has already been decided. if the future is immutable and destined to follow only one course then yes, free will is an illusion. if the future is forked and I can take whichever fork I choose and God already knows which fork I will take then all other forks are already false and again my free will is an illusion.
2. The argument of free will as an explanation for why God allows people to do evil betrays a lack of imagination on God's part. It wasn't free will that allowed someone like Hitler to survive his childhood diseases. There is not one patch of ground on this Earth where there is not something with the potential to take one's life. The airplanes that destroyed the World Trade Centers did not have any free will for God to violate. If God is omnipotent and omniscient there are any number of things he can do to stop people from doing evil without violating their free will.But if everything is predetermined then why do anything? We simply sit down and then, whether we want it to or not, our bodies will get up and do whatever we have been predetermined to do.
If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice.
There is no paradox without the concept of God.I completely agree. It's just that I believe in God, therefore I accept the paradox.
Apparently it's a prerequisite of christians.
Yes, Randy, it is! You have to believe in Jesus as fully God and fully man, which is a paradox, and that is a requirement.
The whole "predestination v. free will thing," that's still being debated. I just know what I believe and why.Yes, I know why too, Chris. The same way Muslims believe in Allah and the paradoxes in his old myth book. The same way any religious follower knows. They convince themselves to know these things. They always have,
All I can say, Randy, is that since you haven't read my hub (singular, I don't expect you to read 40 some odd poems) to find out why I really believe, you don't quite know what you're talking about.
Fresh ammunition, Randy!Yes, tell us all who don't think like you we are wrong, Chris. Hail the prophet Chris Neal! God's messenger has spoken to us, people. I'll bow down to you when I have the time.
Are you okay, Randy?
We had this very conversation once before. I think it was a year or so ago, and no, I don't remember which hub it was on. But the words were very similar, even the part about bowing down to me.
If this is about me and Mark, that's between me and Mark. If you're really frustrated with me because I keep saying you should read the hub, I'm sorry. If you ever actually would read the hub, you'd see that it's not that way at all.
I'm not the smartest guy in the room, obviously. I'm not the most charming (obviously,) the nicest, the cleverest and almost certainly not the most handsome. I don't know anything that other people don't know. Not everyone believes it, but the knowledge is readily available to anybody to read.
And I try hard to be honest. If there's something I don't know, I say I don't know it.
As I've said, I'm under no illusions that I'm 'converting' you or Rad Man or A Thousand Words or Mark or johnny. But I am presenting what I believe as honestly as I know how, and as intelligently as I know how.
The hub simply lists a series of events that have happened to me and to my wife that, put together, I can't dismiss, I think God is using them to get my attention. I didn't expect you to believe it. I just wanted you to read it and get a better idea of where I'm actually coming from. I was hardly immersed in Christianity at any point in my life. When I converted, I was not prepared for Christianity and didn't understand it very well at all. I've had the same exposure as you (probably) to Christianity growing up and was just as convinced back then as you are now.
I didn't choose Christianity. It chose me.
And I'm no prophet.Maybe I owe you an apology. On a different hub, it was pointed out to me that I was coming off as if I thought I had special knowledge straight from God. That kind of threw me, and I took a step back and realized that I probably was, even though I didn't see it in myself. Ironically, the very hub I kept trying to get you to read was my way of explaining that I don't claim special knowledge. I've never, ever heard a voice and I was tired of people who acted like they knew what I've gone through without verifying. Any time I claim anything about the character of God, or anything that God said or did, it's straight from the Bible, which literally anyone (in most parts of the world) can read for themselves, even if they disagree with me.
BUT...
I can see where maybe I was coming off as some kind of self-proclaimed prophet, and maybe even being a little bit if a jerk about getting you to read that hub. I apologize for that. I was wrong.Thanks, Chris! I'm glad to hear you aren't trying to speak for god and are simply basing your opinion on the bible.
So - given that it is actually a paradox that only goes away by believing regardless of the logical proof and facts that disprove it - will you know stop pushing the idea to others?
As soon as God ceases to exist Mark! You have my word!
God does not exist. You yourself agree it makes no sense.
This is why your religion causes so many fights.A) I did say God is an irrational concept. There is no argument about that. But God is not a concept, He is a living being. Therefore, He does exist.
B) Even if my religion "causes so many fights," there wouldn't be anywhere near so many if you weren't so eager to join in.
You scrapper, you!Ah - I see - it is the unbeliever's fault for not accepting nonsense. K then.
This is why your religion causes so many fights - none of you accept responsibility for your actions. It is always some one else not doing wot u sed god sed that is the problem.Wow, Mark! You almost came close to actually showing that you understood what I was saying before taking it and twisting it!
Progress!I understood it just fine. I turned it into a more honest statement. Sorry - I guess that bothers you some huh?
Not at all. Had that actually been what you'd done, I would have been fine with it.
That is what I did. As always - you feel the unbeliever resisting your ridiculous claims is the problem.
When in fact - you are the aggressor and cause of the conflict.
This is not unusual amongst people of your persuasion. You are incapable of rational thought in certain areas and are driven to break the very commandments you claim to live by.
But - I forgive you. You clearly don't know what you are doing most of the time.Thank you Mark. I feel better now that you've forgiven me.
I didn't actually do anything, though.
I didn't accuse "the unbeliever" of not accepting anything and therefore being at fault. What I said was that you, Mark Knowles, are eager to join in these fights that you are so quick to accuse others of starting. It takes two to tango, Mark.
People are who they are, and attempting to beat them over the head with your version of how wrong they are may satisfy your need to be right, but that's all it does. I was quite taken aback by some of the things said about Earnest when he died, and I said so to some of the people who said them. I've never read any of his hubs or posts, but based on things I was told by some people and by the people who claimed him as a friend, I would probably not have gotten along with him any better than you are determined to not get along with me. Nevertheless, that didn't justify some of the things that were said.
And I know better now than to think that you will ever accept that I am who I am, but that makes me sad, not angry.
But, though it's possible that I "clearly don't know what I'm doing most of the time," I'm in no doubt at all about what you do most of the time. And you enjoy a fight.Right. My fault. Got it. My need to beat them over the head. Gotcha. All me not accepting you are a religious zealot who tries to win arguments by making stuff up that is garbage. Right Oh! All down to me liking a fight. I could not possibly have a genuine grievance with your irrational beliefs. Not possible I think your religion is detrimental to us as a society. Nope.
You are who you are. You lie to defend your religious nonsense, generally make stuff up to suit and throw all the blame on anyone who stands up and asks a few questions.
Why would I accept that exactly? This is much of the reason why I despise your religion and many of it's adherents.
No - Ernest would have given you as hard a time as I do. More so, possibly, as he was previously an evangelical and despised them perhaps more than I do for having persuaded him to waste so much of his youth in that pursuit.Since you read my posts, do you actually think I don't like it when people ask questions? Do you think I don't say "I don't know" when I don't know?
An honest question, even if it's from somebody who obviously thinks I'm full of it or that religion is bad all around, I deal with. The "questions" you ask (at least the ones you ask me) are based on assumptions and suppositions that you can't justify from what I actually say. If you don't like religion, that's fine. I think by now I've proven I can talk to people who obviously don't agree with anything I say. I'm quite aware of what people on this forum think of me. And I can accept people for who they are, Mark.Fists back up huh? That didn't last long - did it? All me - I am making assumptions and suppositions that I cannot justify. You never lie or make stuff up. All me falsely accusing.
Not you at all.
This is why your religion causes so many fights.
Dear me.Yes, I "hear" you.
No, my fists are not up. I am allowed to speak in my own defense, that's not picking a fight.
No, I don't lie or make things up.LAWL
OK then - Got it. All me. You are just defending yourself which is not the same as having your fists up.So I'm not allowed to defend myself? Doing so means that I'm blaming you for everything?
Dear me.
I never attacked you. I understand it is all my fault though - you already told me on numerous occasions. LOL No wonder your religion is responsible for so much conflict. You wouldn't be a Mormon by any chance would you?You called me a liar and said I make stuff up. This was before I ever "told you it was all your fault." But... you've never attacked me.
Believe it or not, this was not how I was hoping this conversation would go (nor, believe it or not, was I looking for you to "take the blame.") What I was hoping for was an actual conversation where, although we don't agree we can still treat each other as adults and as human beings. People have those, you know, even me.
But your answer is your answer. Thank you, and good night.Awesome that you no longer think you are privy to knowledge that I do not understand and your majikal super being will no longer punish me.
Sorry you feel the need to be so dishonest with me.
But - you are what you are. One last question that you did not answer - even though you answer all questions - You wouldn't happen to be a Mormon would you?Where in the world did you get any of that stuff? Are you actually reading what I write or are you reading someone else and saying it's mine?
If you need to ask whether I'm a Mormon or not, then I tend to think you have not read my stuff...
If what you do is predetermined, then there is no choice. If you haven't made the choice already, then the future is not written. Omniscience requires that the future be predetermined. With a predetermined future you have no free will nor do you have free choice, these things have already be done, otherwise omniscience doesn't exist.
Predetermined? I could determine that if I give a kid a dollar, what that kid is going to spend it on. There are some factors that go into doing it, but it doesn't take away the child's choice.
Making an educated guess (as we were all kids once that turns into a highly educated guess) is not the same as something being predetermined. Take for instance trying to determine if walking out your door and down the road whether or not your going to get hit by a moving vehicle. You knows that the chances for that are slim to none, however if you are meant to get hit by that vehicle, was determined before hand, then you will be hit by it even if you stay in bed. Some weird coincidences will fall into play to make it happen. That's something being predetermined. You can't make any guess at all about it, and no matter what, it will happen.
Well it seems as though it doesn't make sense. Nothing is predetermined.
Being omniscient isn't enforcing a predetermined state. It's about knowing the outcome of every action, and the subsequent actions after, as well as the entire path including end, for all choices available.
Omniscient is having unlimited knowledge, awareness; perceives all things.
Having or being omniscient, as a G/god, doesn't mean predetermination exist. Using the two in connection doesn't make sense.
All people mean is God already knows the outcome, regardless of the choice made. You still get to make the choice, they are just saying that God knows the choice you make because he knows all the choices you're ever going to make.
Nothing in this life is meant to happen. We can only make things mean something. Living without meaning? It's a wasted trip.I enjoy your input Cagsil. I've never believed our lives are predestined and wondered how it worked in relation to also having free will. I feel enlightened with your explanation.
Being omniscient means that you already know everything past, present, and future. If you know the future, then the future is already set. Which means it's already predetermined.
True. if god already knows everything why run the program at all? He could simply throw the sinners--including me, of course--in hell without all of the trouble of going through the motions of temptation, forgiveness, etc. since the decision is already made. It's not as if anything is going to change or he'd know that too.
But then, he already knew Satan was going to rebel against him before he created him to be perfect, if the bible is to be believed. But the perfection was apparently flawed as Satan was tempted by god himself, as who else could penetrate god's perfection? What a convoluted mess god created for himself and for us!
That's are problem! We lay all this weight on God. How could anybody know what God is and what he is capable of. We can guess from what our hearts tell us and from what is written in all the holy books; that God is love. God created man in his own image. God is a jealous God. God made a few mistakes with his children. There is a war going on in Heaven! How do some people equate all these human traits as being perfect and infallable is nonsense. God is a guy...a really big guy with alot of power; but he's still just a guy. We know he loves us. Just love him back and stop expecting more from him than we expect from ourselves. He does his part!
That's easy for you to say, I suppose. But without some evidence there is actually a god--and the old book is so wacky with it's confusing contradictions that it can't be trusted for anything concrete--it's difficult to even comprehend there being one. Should we really have to guess about stuff some claim is so essential? What's the point?
"Dear God,
How about dropping all of the mysterious BS and make yourself known if you want us to believe in you. Otherwise, you've only got yourself to blame if we just watch TV instead. We don't have to guess what's coming on next because we have a TV Guide. Perhaps if you reformatted your old tome to be more up-to-date it would be easier to know what channel you are on."
Signed,
A disgruntled customer!
You know a lot of different people wrote the bible and other holy books. They were inspired by God to write the bible but they still had to put their own little ideas into a book people would read for all time. And of course they used a little dramatic license to tell the story they want your to hear.
I have no reason to believe whoever wrote the old novel was inspired, nor what they were inspired by if they were. Some of it sounds as if Old Nick may have written a chapter or so himself.
No, I don't believe the authors were anything but common men with vivid imaginations. A bit twisted too.
Inspire by God is not the same as God's word. So what percentage is BS? All? None? 50%?
I made up a song to go with that
:SATAN'S CLAUSE OR GOD'S LAWS:
You better watch out, You better not cry
You better not pout, I'm telling you why
(Mugged Santa) or Satan Claus is coming to town
He's making a list, Checking it twice;
Gonna find out who's naughty or nice.
Satan Claus is coming to town
He sees you when you're sleeping
He knows when you're awake
He knows if you've been bad or good
So be good for goodness sake
Boy I can do without someone watching me,24/7, like big brother
The power I have when I give a kid a dollar is not to be compared to the power of a being who, the Bible tells us, does all things for His good pleasure.
Rad Man said ...We are not aware of what the subconscious mind is saying, but people that are more conscious (aware) make better choices.
= - =
I think it is Sometimes our subconcious mind that is saying "Don't Do IT" when we shouldn't be doing it.
Why does it have to be either-or? When the two come together in agreement is when it can be said that we have piece of Mind.I thought that is what I said. Your Subconscious mind want cake and beer, but your conscious (aware) mind get a muffin (cake) and coffee to appease the subconscious. We are however completely unaware of what the subconscious does. Aware vs unaware. Spend some time around a narcissistic person and you see how strong the subconscious mind is. They are never wrong and will change their own version of events to make themselves look right and then try to convince others that their version of the event is correct. Their conscious (aware) mind is not very aware at all.
I think that for some of us it is our conscious mind that wants the cake and the unconscious mind attempts to prevent this from happening.
I may decide to go out on the town to wine and dine and chase the ladies and suddenly get an upset stomach or a back ache or headache? I’m just saying that this works both ways.The line can definitely be blurred. The unconscious Id just wants to appease cravings and instinctual desires; food, sex, sleep, etc. It's the engine that drove evolution. Survive and procreate. But sometimes it's the Ego that wants something more. Where 'lady chasing' is concerned, it could be the Id's primal desire to mate, or it could be the Ego's need for acceptance. To be wanted or desired by the opposite sex. In the case of cake, the belly ache would be enough for the Id to not be interested, but the Ego may use food to repress desires of the Id beyond food cravings. For instance, the Ego may turn to comfort foods after being rejected by the opposite sex.
You may be right. This is an issue that I've given very little thought.
I'm just talking about how it seems to me.
It seems to me that if or when these two sides become aware and/or accepting of each other, a form of compromise is achieved, piece of mind is achieved then conflicts "seem" to be moved outside of self.
This might seem to be a good thing, but then outside of self seems to become more chaotic.
I think I’ll give this more thought.Did you ever have that feeling somethings just not right? I remember when I was in college and the country had a beer strike (I don't remember why, but we couldn't get beer). So a group of friends drove to Buffalo for the weekend to party. Keep in mind we were 19. 19 is good to drink here but no in the U.S.
I just didn't go and at the time I didn't know why. They got back with stories of fighting with bouncers...
I certainly wasn't my conscious mind that told me not to go.
Interestingly the conscious part of the mind is in the left hemisphere. The right brain can't talk, and is not aware, but answers. Google split brained patients.
Unfortunately, you can never fully be aware of the unconscious mind. Our conscious mind is the rational thinking part of our brain while the subconscious mind is the baser, often primal, suppressed part of us. Those things you keep from yourself will often come out in dreams, those hidden fears, come out in dreams, those secret hopes and wishes, come out in dreams. Dreams will always show you what you hide.
Freud described these two things as the Ego and the Id. The Id being the moral primal/instinctual desires of primitive man, or the 'pleasure center'. The Ego is the more evolved, rational side that consciously tries to find socially acceptable ways to feed the need of the Id. In this way the Ego is kind of a mediator between the unconscious Id and reality. Most, I think, are not consciously aware of this.
I'm no expert of anything except that I know more about myself than anyone else does (I think?) I have been observing myself, my actions and decision processes for the last 40 years or so of my 62 years.
It seems to me that my subconcious mind has made more inteligant decisions than my concious mind has.
But what do I know?
If it is as I have described, and God dwells, as Jesus said, within us all, then, it only stands to reason that 1) It is up to us to change our existence. 2)If anyone will be 'saved' from some future cataclysm (It does happen here, ya know) It will be because we all woke up and started having the gonads to save ourselves. Otherwise, heaven is full of whiners.
Some people can convince themselves of anything. If this wasn't true, then there would not have been so many gods in the history of our planet. Gods do not fare very well--meaning gain a large group of converts--unless people can convince themselves their particular deity is real.
This is true for any god, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Greek, Roman, ancient, or new god. If no one believes in them they do not last long. Sorta like Tinkerbell and saying fairies aren't real.
It's all about free will. God has power in the lives who want Him but none with those who reject Him and, unfortunately, children suffer at the hands of those who use their free will for evil.
No, it's not all about free will. It's all about self delusion. Fortunately, we all don't have to indulge ourselves in other peoples delusions, no matter how bad they want us to.
You are indulging in my delusion by responding to my comment.
She has a point there, although Claire is entertaining.
I feel the issue is that people project their idea of goodness onto god. i believe God is absolute being or being itself. Like the Sun or any force of nature, I believe God is neither good nor evil, God simply IS and that every being in existence is a fraction of the totality that is God. A human trying to understand the nature of God is like a carbon atom trying to understand the nature of a human.
Well said, and I love the name. Welcome, Prof McMurder.
How can one know something or proclaim that something exists if one is incapable of even understanding it's nature. If you cannot even understand the nature of something then you cannot proclaim that this something exist or is the cause of anything that exists. The best you can say is "I don't know if this thing exists or not".
A thing's existence is not based on our ability to grasp it's defining nature. Let us agree that man exists (or we wouldn't be having this conversation), however, I don't believe either of us have a full understanding or even a minute understand of the nature of man.
Good point. I like this guy. The human mind is the perfect example of this. The only reason we all agree it exists is because we all experience it for ourselves. Externally, it's just as undetectable as the God that the bible describes.
Don't you think , we can get a closer understanding to everything that is incomprehensible now, within time?
Well you seem to have a good grasp of him. How are you able to understand him and others not?
That's my point exactly, i don't understand the nature of God. There's no way to truly understand the totality of being. It's like trying to understand nothingness because whatever you thing nothing IS, it isn't that.
Prof Mac-Murder.
A human trying to understand the nature of God is like a carbon atom trying to understand the nature of a human.
That is deep, what is the brain size of an Atom?I don't know. However, brain size does not equal complexity. Whales and elephants both have brains larger than that of humans.
The Human brain size is the largest in relationship to it's own body size of all animal..
If God made a man according his image and put human in charge of all animal. Then...Is not your statement, just a made up silly idea, lacking good sense.That's if I believe in the Christian mythology of God making man in his image. To me the Christian myth of God, the creation of man, and the bestowment of dominion over the animals is "a made up silly idea, lacking good sense."
The problem Mark, is not that we can't show it to you, you just can't believe it when you see it. It's SOOOOO BIIIGGG! And, I will admit, hard to tell what it is from the inside. Kinda like being Jonah tryin' to figure out where the hell he woke up. Inside a whale? Naw, couldn't be. Welcome to the whale, BUBBA!
No - the problem is you can't show it to me because it doesn't exist. LOL That you think you see something I cannot see.
This is why your religion causes so many fights - no matter how many times you lie and pretend to be a Druid.
Oh, great and powerful Mark 'The Wizard Of Oz' Knowles...what, exactly religion is it your perception that I, this humble self, carries the banner for? My religion didn't cause many fights. Didn't really stop any, either, but you don't have a clue one about 'my religion'.
Wasn't the Wizard of Oz pretending to be GOD?
No! You could actually see and hear him. No self respecting god is allowed to do either of these things! It's in the How-to-be-a-god rulebook. You've probably noticed all the gods "religiously" keep this rule!
God is loving. that is why he give free will to his people to choose to believe or not. He wants to challenge your faith.
wordoftheworld
I challenge you to have faith in yourself first
Get back to me with your improved results, because praying for it at best, gives you only a 50%/50% chance
God is Almighty - Omnipotent? BS at best.
God is all powerful, yet cannot create a rock in which he himself cannot pick up.1) Cag...you take a hypothetical rock and turn it into a non-hypothetical rock. Miraculous. I would say that he did, indeed make such a rock. It is the rock of your dis-belief...and only you can move it...but, you haveta stop being so 'boxed'. 2) Mark, you constantly hint that you know everything, so, nobody can fool you. Stop trying to paint yourself as a genius...I already checked the Mensa Rolls...and you ain't on it.
He's also present outside of man and inside of man, in fact, God exists in everything, so, to say 'where is God' is a really silly question. Some people just can't grasp the simplest concept. There is only one thing in science that exists in everything...ENERGY. The external God is equivalent to what one might term a 'thoughtex' A being of pure energy, and all else lives inside of that energy, like the bacteria that live in our digestive systems (YUCK!!!)
You seem so sure of that. Do you have any evidence to back it up. I don't know why you would think people can't grasp the concept. Of course they can understand the concept, they just don't believe you. To help you understand I'll type the same sentence, but change a few words.
(Some people just can't grasp the simple concept of there being no God.)
I know you understand the sentence but don't agree. Just because people don't agree doesn't mean they don't understand.
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