I have removed my articles from HunPages for these reasons

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   youssefdoukkaliposted 11 years ago

   First reason:
   Any article is handicapped by moderators if it doesn't  please them. Your article won't appear in search engines purely because it is not featured.
   Second reason:
   You cannot publish your articles elsewhere! Your articles are not even visible in search engines and yet HubPages use the same reason to defend its rules: If the same content is found two times by search engines then your hub rank would be affected. HubPages hides your articles from search engines thus the idea of harming a hub's rank is search engine is moot.
   Third reason:
   I have  seen a lot of friendship between some members and moderators. Whenever a star author or friend of a moderator publish or republish a hub it got featured.
   My two cents:
   I respect the rules of HubPage but I see no reason to publish my articles here, I have 100 visits on my blogger blog, Much of my writing are too technical to be understood by an author of romance novels, yet a lot of people are interested in my writing.

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      Paul Maplesdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      It's true that HP might not be for everyone, although I believe that the moderation guidelines and duplicate content rules are in place for good reasons.
      
      Good luck in your new ventures, I wish you well.

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         youssefdoukkaliposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         I am not bashing this site. I just said that a tiny group of people could not know every subject on earth. You have taken my words out of context. I was not talking about duplicating my articles but about the fact that my hubs are not visible on search engines and in the same time not allowed to be published elsewhere. Remove the blockage on articles and nobody would ever think of duplicating elsewhere.
         Best regards.

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            Alison Dittmarposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            If you write for Yahoo Voices the same rules apply. You really can not write a duplicate aritcle for 2 separate sites, it's just not cool or smart. Writing online is a challenge for sure. I can tell you are angry, mostly because you misspelled HUB pages in the title of this post    that's not good writing!  
            You are correct though in saying that a small group can not know it all, that's a no-brainer- but truly it is the same rules at every "good and established" site. Rules are rules and some sights are much stricter and not as user friendly. I've written for a few and I happen to like HubPages a lot!! It's so user-friendly. Take a break for awhile (I haven't written a new hub in like 8 months- bad me!!) but sometimes that's life. Don't waste your energy on anger over an internet site when you can be using that to write an awesome Hub reviewing online writing sites!!    Yeah! Do that and watch those typo's!

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      page1articlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      The pool of readers is not limited to Hubpages. If you are having problems with duplicate content, or if you feel that are being harrassed by hubpages, look first at your content... look second how google looks at your content, and then at how hubpages might look at your content. If you need help with this let me know. I will happily look at a few of your hubs and give you feedback for free.

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      1. 56

         youssefdoukkaliposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         You want to me to change my hub content to make it comprehensible to hupages moderators?  Are you asking me to change my subject from human anatomy to belly dance and making pizza? I am not guilty if the moderation doesn't know what an "extensor carpi ulnaris muscle" means.

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            Marisa Wrightposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            What's wrong with belly dance, pray?
            
            The bottom line is that if you have a specialist subject - and it sounds like you do - you'll be much better off concentrating on your own blog in any case.  Google has said it wants to favour "authority" sites these days (sites which offer a large amount of good information on a single topic), and that trend is only likely to get stronger in the future.

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               youssefdoukkaliposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               I know you like belly dance so imagine a moderator putting your hub down because he or she ignores what belly dance means?

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               1. 85

                  Marisa Wrightposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  You don't know that's why your Hub was not featured.  Unfortunately we can't judge either - though there's a simple way to rectify that. Just go to your profile and answer "NO" to "Show only Featured Hubs in my profile?"
                  
                  Then we will all be able to see your unfeatured Hub on your profile and offer feedback on why it may not have passed.

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      benashirazposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Don't worry at all Yousef. I'm with you in this equally.

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      1. 56

         youssefdoukkaliposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Thank you:)

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      Uninvited Writerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Well, maybe you'd better stick to your own sites. It's better in the long run anyway. All content sites have rules and they are all basically because of Adsense rules.

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         DrMark1961posted 11 years agoin reply to this

         My feeling exactly.
         It is a shame he and Joseph the swm are not in the same country. They could go out and have a party to celebrate their 15 minutes of fame since leaving Hunpages.

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      2. 56

         youssefdoukkaliposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Not all sites are the same.

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2. 83

   psycheskinnerposted 11 years ago

   Or you could just edit your hubs and get them featured again.  Your choice of course.
   
   By the way, I am an author of romance novels with  Ph.D.  You shouldn't stereotype people.
   
   You could also give this place more than 3 days. You wrote maybe one hub and it failed QAP.  You could take that as a challenge.

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   1. 56

      youssefdoukkaliposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      You didn't get my point I am not stereotyping people. I don't think  a PhD. could understand biology, astronomy, martial arts, cooking  Chinese culture and so forth. My first hub was about Olympic barbells and standard one. Knowing the differences between the two has nothing to do with a diploma.
      Best regards.

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      1. 83

         psycheskinnerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         "Much of my writing are too technical to be understood by an author of romance novels"
         
         I think I understood you just fine.  Good luck with your endeavors elsewhere.  Don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out.

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         1. 56

            youssefdoukkaliposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Sorry to offend you. But for me  a PhD. means nothing. You can moderate something related to your domain. You are still a romance author in my eyes. I hope you are selling well your fiction, by the way I don't read fiction or novels. Since you are writing novels not scientific research can I assume that your PhD is literature PhD?

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            Rebecca E.posted 11 years agoin reply to this

            psycheskinner-- probably why they don't like you-- you write books! (which now I have to find-- sigh more to read)

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   2. 83

      Marcy Goodfleischposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      PsycheSkinner - I'd love to trade messages with you about your books. Would that be okay with you? I'm a closet novelist, too.

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         psycheskinnerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Feel free.  I use a different name for that writing to keep things tidy.

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            Marcy Goodfleischposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            I will send a PM - thanks!

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            Alison Dittmarposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            And I too published with createspace a novel. Not sure if its on my profile or allowed? ha ha.... but, its on amazon under my name

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   Joseph041167posted 11 years ago

   I am absolutely with  you 100%. I have 17 articles that I unpublished, and I also unpublished my profile. No one can be accepted to Google Adsense with them unpublishing your work as fast as you publish it. These days, no one is ever accepted to Google Ad Sense, even very good accomplished writers with 30 hubs, 3 years experience, over 10,000 views, over 300 followers, and all the accolades. HP became a hang out for FB trolls, and a lot of one-up-man-ship-snobbery, and particularly left leaning FB trolls. Hold on to your material. Not sure how it works now, back in the day, we saved it to disc, they have a differant  kind of drive now? After the search engines re-scrub all the old material, you can still publish your stuff else where, I would recommend that you re-edit and add as much as possible. I am still looking. There are sites out there where you can publish material and do all the same stuff that HP has, links, videos,  photos, the works, and you can even make money at it. I am not interested in HP policing my material. Everything is not meant to be a best sellor. There are personal blogs also. There are small sellors. That is why it is a numbers game just like investing, you put a lot of articles out. No one seems to know when the search engines re-scrub, there are ways to make it happen that I never could figure out, but in time it should happen on it's own. I rather think Hubpages a frawd, I was disappointed. There may be something like "insider-trading" here. There may be paid reps making it look legitimate. IDK. It could be real for very few. It might be like getting a record deal, just, one out of several million make it. It might be a lottery, but there may also be connections. Best of luck, take care.

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   1. 56

      youssefdoukkaliposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Thank you I do agree with you too.

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      A Karpinskiposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Maybe Hubpages doesn't like your articles because you can't spell.

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      1. 56

         youssefdoukkaliposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         There are tons of interesting articles non featured for no reason. If I were a moderator I would not let your school essays get featured. All your hubs are childish and self-centered.  You can't write  or  think.

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            psycheskinnerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            There is a reason an article fails QAP.  It may not be one we like, but there is one.  You might start by finding out what it was.
            
            Or... you could actually leave here and pursue other avenues, rather than hanging around to insult people.

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               youssefdoukkaliposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               I writing an article about Hubpages on my own blog. Please let me  gather enough information here.

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               1. 83

                  psycheskinnerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  I think you are proving more information than you are gathering, on a forum that is open and ranks quite well in Google searches.  I post here in the full knowledge that the whole world is seeing it, all they have to do is Google my name.

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                     Alison Dittmarposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     Exactly! I've never had a problem with my Hubs not being seen and honest, I'm not THAT great   but I'm working on it- haha!

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         2. 61

            wowtgpposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Go on outta here. You shouldn't insult others.

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            1. 56

               youssefdoukkaliposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               You have to give this advise to those who insulted me first.

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                  psycheskinnerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Adults don't generally still live by the "he started it" maxim.

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                     Melissa A Smithposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     Why should  the person who started it not be acknowledged?

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                        psycheskinnerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                        Anything can be acknowledged.  But you remain responsible for your actions just as much if you go second as if you go first.

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            madscientist12posted 11 years agoin reply to this

            I don't have a PH.D in anything, I'm just a regular college student and all of my hubs are featured.  You need to realize that you have to write articles with content that people want to read.  You may think your subject is AWESOME but if no one wants to read it, you've wasted your time.  Also, you tend to have a lot of typo's.  This may be another reason your hubs aren't featured.

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         Alison Dittmarposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Typo's, grammar, spelling... yep. Important stuff. Like before you paint the room... tarp, paint, brushes, blue tape, just the tools of the trade so to speak. Hubbers and moderators can't move forward in a piece if they can't get past the elementary stuff. Start there and lose the anger, it truly is unproductive. Best wishes.

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   3. 61

      xstaticposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Good Grief!

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4. 94

   FatFreddysCatposted 11 years ago

   You've removed your articles from "HunPages?" Whew. That's a relief. I thought you were going to say you'd removed them from HUBPages.

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      youssefdoukkaliposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Yeah it was relief to me too.

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         quotationsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Perhaps the poster was being sarcastic - equating the hub team with the Huns?

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      NateB11posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      lol

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5. 72

   A Karpinskiposted 11 years ago

   If you don't like Hubpages, then leave it.
   If you have issues with how the moderators are deciding how Hubs are handled, then contact them directly.
   I honestly see no reason why you need to make a statement about it to the forums while simultaneously insulting the intelligence of people who use Hubpages.
   I am only a 20 year old sophomore in college and more of my Hubs are featured than not, and I've never had a Hub unpublished. I don't know the moderators, and I write about subjects ranging from TV show reviews to the fur farm industry. Not necessarily "popular" content.
   So if you want to write more technical articles, and realize that Hubpages isn't the right place...
   Then just find somewhere else and don't insult us with how you're so much smarter than us and it's causing your Hubs to suffer. They're suffering because you lack the ability to write an article that is relatable to the general audience of Hubpages. If you're writing for the wrong demographic, that's your fault.

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      youssefdoukkaliposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I have already left HubPages, this is a shame that a  shallow mind like you can write here. You articles seem to be  written by a 10 year kid. I suffer when I see people like you writing school essays. English is my fourth language and I would be more than happy if HubPages starts rejecting hubs for spell errors.But this is not the case since your articles are full of grammatical errors.

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         wowtgpposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         You need to learn to spell first before advising others. Some people know nothing except bashing and insulting others. You will never succeed if you don't change your attitude.

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            youssefdoukkaliposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            6 days ago you have said :
            (I know it's too early too ask, but I am curious. I have published 6 hubs but haven't  got a single view from search engine traffic yet. So, How much time till  you see some traffic?)
            You are invisible online. Try to improve your subject in order to have more traffic.You will never succeed if you don't change your attitude.

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               psycheskinnerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               He has 9 featured hubs now.  So apparently he worked out how to get visible.

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               wowtgpposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               You just joined 3 days ago, have done nothing except bashing and insulting others, have a hub score lower than me and telling me to improve?
               
               I said that thing 6 days ago when I hadn't figured out the method, but now most of my hubs have started getting traffic from search engines. What have you done?

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      2. 61

         Philistusposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Hi there. Let me just make it clear that insulting the person rather than debating her argument gives a pretty clear inclination of your stance on intellectual honesty in general, let alone in this specific case.
         
         Karpinsky merely pointed out that your spelling doesn't seem up to par with what the moderators expect out of a hub and,  from what I've seen in this discussion, I am inclined to agree with her.
         
         On the other hand Karpinsky's articles seem to me well written and without any major grammatical error, and saying that they are is quite ludicrous. The content of her Hubs is however not for you to judge, and calling her a shallow mind is, at this point, rather pointless.
         
         English isn't my first language either, I live in Italy, so please, check out my hubs, point out my ridiculously bad spelling and grammar, but I doubt that it will make your hubs or writing any better. If anything, not being featured should give you and incentive to better your knowledge of the English language.

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            A Karpinskiposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Thank you for agreeing with me!
            Obviously I'm not writing like a 10 year old kid if I've done this well on Hubpages so far. And if you think I'm shallow minded, hold a mirror up to yourself and see what that really looks like.
            My writing skills might not be up to par with some of the amazing people of HubPages, but that is mostly because I'm only 20 years old and a sophomore in college. To expect my Hubs to be on the level of someone who has been writing for decades vs just a few years in school would be unfair.
            But that's the last thing I'm going to say here, because you're just trolling at this point.
            But thank you, again, Phillistus, for the support.

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               wowtgpposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               I too fall in your category. Here is hoping that we will be pros after some time.

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               Alison Dittmarposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               I totally agree with your initial post- and let's be honest here, if you spell correctly (!!!) and know your subject then you should be fine and found on google. I don't know of any "tricks" for adsense (really not sure about any of that techno-jargon- yikes/ha), but if you like to write or must write or want to write or consider yourself a writer, then guess what? You are going to write!! Eventually you will learn to edit before publishing. I admire someone who can speak four languages, but HubPages are written in English, so perfect that language in the written form.

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6. 83

   psycheskinnerposted 11 years ago

   The hub is most likely not featured for bog standard reasons. Posting the hub in the hub help forum might be illuminating.

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7. 57

   iworldtipposted 11 years ago

   Dude Get some Grammar classes first!

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8. 61

   nufoundgloryposted 11 years ago

   Youssefdoukkali sounds like someone who has just discovered Internet a few days ago. Just saying.

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   LucidDreamsposted 11 years ago

   Clicked the profile link, apparently banned now!

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      FatFreddysCatposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Awwww, gee, that's a shame. He'll be missed.
      
      Or perhaps not.

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      1. 83

         Marcy Goodfleischposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         I'm trying very hard not to stoop to schadenfreude here . . .

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10. 81

    VictoriaSheffieldposted 11 years ago

    interesting?

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    barbat79posted 11 years ago

    Just a thought, if you do like to write, why not stay? HUbpages is a learning environment as well. So what if your hub is not featured?  If you do wish it to be featured, why not explore reasons it might not be?  We all evolve in life and life does have restrictions and rules.  Or maybe you wish to start your own website that you decide what to write about....I just think it may be lonely and shelter someone from growth.  I hope you decide to stay and write...my writing is not perfect.  I am not in any way intending to criticize, but encourage.  Take my comments or leave them...this is just one hubbers opinion.  Whatever you decide, take care

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12. 93

    peeplesposted 11 years ago

    You know, a few months ago I had the same issue. My favorite topic to write about is true crime, mostly covering in great detail the crimes of serial killers. There is a lot of demand online for my type of writing, I write it well, and I enjoy it. I also love writing about child abuse awareness however the second you write the word rape or incest everyone gets all uncomfortable and hits the flag button. Every time I write a hub about it HP either says it's too mature and unpublishes it, or removes all adds all together. They claim it's google yet google allows their ads on websites dedicated to serial killers. So I would spend days putting together a well thought out hub just to have it unpublished by HP. I told my followers and myself that I would just give up. In a way I have. I no longer write about serial killers. I miss it but I enjoy the HP community so I'm still here. I enjoy the friendships I have made here and don't want to just give that up. So my advice to you is if you have nothing else to stay for don't. But if you have anything else worth saying then stick it out and see what happens.

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    1. 83

       Marcy Goodfleischposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       Your hubs sound like they would be very interesting and would get good readership.  I teach a university course about Serial Killers, and it's pretty popular with the students. There's a huge fascination with that topic, as you know!

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          Rochelle Frankposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          I have one hub about two murderers I had met who killed their parents. It gets a trickle of views-- more than many of my hubs, though I do nothing to promote it, and have even thought of deleting it, because it is a subject outside of my usual posts.

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       2. 93

          peeplesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Yes Marcy, in the beginning before I got "known" (I guess) by moderators the hubs about serial killers were getting great views from google. Even after google ads were removed they still got great views, but I guess I felt if they were going to take half of their ads and unpublish the other half I might as well take them down. It must be fun teaching about them. Sounds like something I would love to do or even take. There's so much to learn about human nature and psychology.

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    2. 85

       Marisa Wrightposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       It is about Adsense.  You are right, you will see Adsense on blogs about serial killers and sex.  The point is that here on HubPages, everyone's Adsense earnings are at risk, not just one blog owner's.
       
       Just recently, Wizzley (one of HubPages' competitors) lost all its Adsense advertising for several weeks, all because one member uploaded a graphic image, which Adsense decided it didn't like.  Fortunately they were able to appeal and get it sorted,but can you imagine the disaster if they hadn't?  It would've been the end of the whole site and all the writers would've suffered.
       
       That's why HubPages errs on the safe side when it comes to deciding what to allow and what not to allow.  I know that's annoying when you want to write about something that sails close to what's permissible, but personally I'm glad HubPages takes it so seriously.
       
       Also, don't confuse flagging and moderating.  It doesn't matter whether your Hub is flagged once or a hundred times -  all flagging does is put your Hub in a queue so HubPages staff can look at it, and make sure it's not breaking any rules.  When a moderator looks at a Hub, if they're satisfied there are no rules broken, the flags are dismissed and you'll never even know it.

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       1. 93

          peeplesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          My issue was the constant approved, not approved, approved, back and forth with some. They would lose ads then get them back then lose the ads. I still have a sexual abuse hub that is published that has lost ads then got back several times. So what happens there? Are  moderators in disagreement about it or is there part of the flagging system that after so many flags automatically takes ads until review? I don't know if anyone knows the answer to that or not but I would love to know. When it comes down to it I understand the rest of my ad issues. Which is part of why I'm still here.

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             Marisa Wrightposted 11 years agoin reply to this

             It doesn't matter how many flags a Hub gets, all that happens is it goes in the queue to be looked at by moderators.
             
             I agree the whole approval process is confusing. There's the initial QAP process (which is an approval for quality) and the moderating process (which is an approval for both quality and compliance). Then there are the automated filters, which are run from time to time. 
             
             It's very possible for a Hub to get passed by a moderator then picked up again by an automated filter.  And every time you edit a Hub, it gets sent through the filters again. 
             
             The bottom line really is that anything that is against Adsense rules is either not allowed on HubPages, or it's allowed without ads. You may be lucky and escape detection every now and then for a while, but you will always have this crazy dance of approved, not approved, ads, no ads.  Is it really worth the hassle? 
             
             Anyway, I always say that if you have a subject you're really passionate about, you should have a blog about it, not just a HubPages account.  There you have total control and can say anything you like.

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13. 64

    kohuetherposted 11 years ago

    Has anyone clicked on his profile? He's been banned. This isn't even worth our energy.

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       wowtgpposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       Finally!

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          kohuetherposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Ha ha. What a toxic person! It didn't even matter if he was right or wrong in the end. Toxicity is stressful!

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             wowtgpposted 11 years agoin reply to this

             True that.

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14. 68

    pinto2011posted 11 years ago

    Your are right. This person has been banned.

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15. 60

    yupperclubposted 11 years ago

    hubpages is a great place to publish unique articles...and what's wrong with the approval process?  Its an easy way find out if your article is positively unique...why spam the internet?  And you only need to publish the article once...like I said, why spam?

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    insuranceagentguyposted 11 years ago

    Thanks for posting this.  I'm still on the fence with adding a lot of content here although I agree with and am fine with the rule not to use republished content.  I don't see any good reason to publish the same article all over the web.

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    intelpagesposted 11 years ago

    For myself, things are still working out fine though I hope I won't ever come to this point. Nevertheless, doesn't really matter where we all go since there are a lot of alternatives to HP. Good luck!

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18. 0

    Educateurselfposted 11 years ago

    First of all you should know hubpages provide us a free platform of writing, hubpages invites us to write without buying domain name, write to earn your rewards. I personally thought that hubpages gives us everything free in fact they offer us to write and earn money.
    If your hubs are not featured or not to become featured then it's not a matter of issue. Write and share your writing with millions of peoples, write to get and deliever some knowledge, write to become more good at writing, after all this your hubs will become featured and you will make money.
    Can you believe me I am from Pakistan and english is not my first language, but I still write because writing gives me everything and my hubs got featured. One thing writing is not a magic or earning money is not a one day work you will need patience then believe me you will get your rewards.

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    ftclickposted 11 years ago

    Yahoo voices allowed a writer to copy my content and I filed a DMCA which did nothing but have them send a boilerplate reply with counter-litigation threats

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20. 81

    VictoriaSheffieldposted 11 years ago

    I had a situation with Triond but I used it in a positive way. I deleted the article from Triond since they did not accept it and posted it on my personal blog. Either way I win!!

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    GwennyOhposted 11 years ago

    It's unbelievably sad when people don't understand that on HP, quality writing, meaning proper English included, is such a big deal.  Also, so many figure they should be able to publish their article anywhere they want.  Hmm if every author did that, what an unbelievable mess the Internet would be. 
    
    Sorry if I repeated anyone else's general response.  I didn't read the entire thread.

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22. 83

    psycheskinnerposted 11 years ago

    OP has been banned and cannot reply, so it might be time to let this thread die?

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23. 84

    SidKempposted 11 years ago

    In as much as we are here to make money, I see three options:
    1) Keep focused on HubPages. (That's what I'm doing now.) My experience is that the rules make sense, they are clear and fair, and the community is very supportive. This is a place that does a lot to help make success happen for online writers. This would include improving (or removing) hubs that don't stay featured, figuring that HubPages is using featuring to improve our results with Google, as intended.
    
    2) Keep going with HubPages, and develop an alternate location for things that don't work here. In this case, we keep featured hubs here, and we keep writing more. At the same time, we remove un-featured material for use elsewhere, and develop things that wouldn't work on HubPages there. This approach is also useful if we are developing multiple streams of revenue (not only ad revenue).
    
    3) Leave HubPages. That's okay, though, personally, if you write well, are friendly, and have interesting things to say, I'll miss you. Staying focused is very important to the success of any writer. If you have a place that works, or a dream to follow, go for it!

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    CloudExplorerposted 11 years ago

    Nice useful tips SidKemp I hope many folks new to it all here actually choose to follow many of these, you're definitely on point in every way here with all you've stated up above. Nice response, and I hope that person who started this post will find success elsewhere, even if they got booted from Hubpages.
    
    As for me I'm not going anywhere, I love writing on HP and networking with good people like yourself here on Hubpages, and mainly because I have never had so much awesome vibes sent in my direction ever before.
    
    Hubpages is truly awesome in my honest opinion, the problem isn't Hubpages at all, I believe its with a persons patience and maybe a bit of false expectations as well. I actually like the rules here online as well as those on HP, because I took the time to learn them all, and did the much needed research to solidify my presence here, and even if I myself am not the best writer of them all.
    
    One thing I learned both off and online is that humility will indeed take any of us a great distance in life for sure, if anything. I hope more writers learn that aspect of things and by continuing to believe in their efforts, someday they may indeed reach the top and achieve online success, but if they quit, or spread to much negativity, egotistic ways and all it will surely backfire in the end.

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       barbat79posted 11 years agoin reply to this

       thumbs up!

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