Why have so many Americans unfriended America ?

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ahorsebackposted 11 years ago
I don't know maybe it's me but I grew up sort of a patriot , family , friends , lovers or who ever ! Once everyone seemed to love our country ! Since the sixties though , something has drasticaly changed , I for one am ashamed of how be-littling people are to our home land , our country , our freedoms , and is it just the freedom of speech thats to blame ? I would like to hear honest , heartfelt answers only ! If you only want to bash America , go somewhere else !
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not sure how to answer that question without appearing to bash America!
  
  Perhaps rather than a long essay I'll just repeat a common WWII British mantra about US soldiers, Over paid, Over sexed and Over here.
  
  I don't think there was any basic objection to any of those, rather the fact that your soldiers would never let us forget it. I think that still holds good to this day.
  It's reflected frequently on these forums that you consider everything about your country and the people to be bigger and better than anybody else, even in the face of contradictory evidence.
  
  ETA. Apologies, I've just reread your thread title and realise that it wasn't aimed at foreigners but at your fellow Americans. I'll leave my post standing though for the sake of a good barny
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  ahorsebackposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Over paid , over sexed and over here ? The greatest nation ever known to send it boys to a country , to Save It from Hitler!..........Hmmmm?
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Hmm, we had been holding our own, but that's beside the point.
  Your second sentence is much more telling and tends to support the quoted mantra.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You should read the manuals our men were sent with. "British people are not aware of common courtesy there may be times when they will invite both you and a negro serviceman to their home in such instances the negro should decline the invitation." Is it any wonder they didn't get a great impression? Not to mention that anyone who studies our history even a little bit knows we sent troops to fight Hitler and the Japanese because we were concerned about the growing threat they would represent to us, not to save Britain.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Nazi party declared war on America on Dec. 8, 1941. If war is declared on America, then there will be a defense response.
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  gmwilliamsposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  + a multillion percent. This talk is falling on John's deaf ears. Talking to him is futile.
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  teamrnposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  That's kind of the way I feel,: if your desire is to bash America or not live by our law (aka. only the Constitution and it's amendments, not movements to update and beautify that document) you still have freedom; FREEDOM TO GO SOMEWHERE ELSE.
  
  Other countries don't like us; not because we have different religions than they do. And, I don't buy into the argument, "they don't like us because we have and THEY DON'T."
  
  I think the reason they don't like us,, is because once we stood for something, we stood for hope, love, where had work got you where you wanted to be, and values and the knowledge that if they tried, one day, they might have what we have. After all, people in other countries are human just like we are.Now they've seen those same values erode and they don't respect us.
  
  You can't love someone/thing you don't respect. It easily gives rise to a hatred mentality.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  AHAHAA no.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, leave America if you are not happy here. No one is holding you. Why not go to Cuba if you love Socialism so much.
  
  Wait...ahahahaa no. You won't do it because Cuba is a filth hole when compared to America and human rights. You are nothing more than a hypocrite who talks trash like a typical Socialist.
  
  Get lost-
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Ah, Will Starr, my apologies, here is one of the hateful comments you referred to.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  People don't like a bully and the US has done a lot of that in the international stage, additionally I think many people here (such as myself) get frustrated by the slow rate of change and how long it takes us to fix simple problems while the rest of the world fixes them and moves on.
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  Dr Billy Kiddposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  The U.S. turned Iraq into a slum, so they hate the U.S. And now, certain political extremist plan on turning the U.S. into a ghetto. They'll be calling people like you and me "peasants" in a few years--after they sack the rest of our pension, take a way Social Security and Medicare, and turn the increased productivity of our work, reflected in wages, over to the wealhty. All of which is happening now. Meanwhile they talk about American exceptionalism....as they plan a war against Iran.
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  Old Poolmanposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I love America as much or more than I ever have. I am very disgusted and disappointed with our failed leadership and many of our policies. The America others see on the news is not the America I grew up in, and not the America the citizens of this country want either.
  Josak is correct, America has become a intolerant bully and can't fix even simple problems without spending billions of dollars and politicians fighting with each other. I am proud of my country, but ashamed of our politics.
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  bBereanposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Ahorseback,
  
  I have fond memories of growing up in the same America you remember. It has been devolving for sometime now, though. Most today, don't recall, or never knew those days. There was a brief resurgence after 9/11, where America pulled together for a common good. Perhaps we could point to that time, for those who experienced it, to give them a glimpse of what those earlier days were like.
  
  I too, was caught up in the swell of emotion after the attacks in New York. My flag came out of storage, like so many others, and went up that day. It remained proudly flying until 2005 when Terri Shindler (Shiavo) was killed. That day, out of embarrassment, I took it down. http://www.lifeandhope.com/
  
  I remain hopeful and guardedly optimistic for the future of America, but must admit the last 5 years have taken a toll on hope, with the only change seeming to be for the worse. We have been picking up steam in the wrong directions on many fronts. This does not change the fact that I would choose to live nowhere else, am proud of what this nation once was and could be again, and remain appreciative of having had the opportunity to grow up in what is sadly turning out to have been a unique window of time in America.
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  Credence2posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Honest people disagree on the best approach to ehnacing life and living in these United States. That does not constitute bashing. I am not a "my country right or wrong person", but our country has to strive to do the right things in its dealing and we must not fear to look at ourselves and ask those questions instead of charging blindly ahead allowing patriotism to blind us.
  
  Since Vietnam, (circa 1966-68) cynicism has been the order of the day for the public at large. There is no longer any blind trust or faith......
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  Dont Taze Me Broposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  ahorseback, I think different people define "America" differently. The America we love is in our minds (yours and mine) the land of the free, the home of the brave where the government is run by "we the people" and is the most successful, greatest experiment in government and the preservation of human rights in history. In others' minds it means something else which may or may not actually be what America is, was or will be. So if Americans have "unfriended" America it could be that the America they dislike is really a figment of their imagination (thank you liberal media and left wing liars) or they see an America that we do not see, an America that we also would dislike if what they see is true and encpompasses the total result but it shouldn't be defined by any brief or unsavory episodes in its history. By comparison to the rest of the world any sane objective observer (without some agenda) would be hard pressed to choose any country in the world they could "friend" more.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  What, countries like Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Libya, Vietnam, Panama, Korea, Grenada, and so on and so on - but wait - they have an agenda so don't count, they don't like being told how to run their countries by America.
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  Dont Taze Me Broposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  It would be easier to discuss with you if you didn't twist my words - I wasn't talking about country's with agendas and please, America tells them how to run their countries? I suppose you favor dictatorships that use chemical warfare like Iraq or maybe you'd like to live in Iran under the Mullas or starve in North Korea or you could have been one of Khadafy's "boys"- be my guest. God forbid we should try to keep a country from sponsoring terrorism against us! I suppose you are a 911 truther, aren't you. Oh, of course you aren't even an American, a real "expert" on the subject of American's unfriending America.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Well I am an American and John is correct, bull like Vietnam is why this country has a bad reputation.
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  Dont Taze Me Broposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  So you think one mistake like Vietnam defines America, that outdoes everything else America is and stands for - that says more about you than about why "Americans unfirend America", like I said before you are one of those with an agenda - you are a socialist, aren't you. And what exactly do you mean by bull like Viet Nam? How is a foreign policy failure the reason to hate the greatest democratic country on earth? - If you know of a better one, why do you live here in a country with such a bad reputation?
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I said things like Vietnam, also supporting operation condor, forcibly opening Japan, providing material aid to the Taliban, The Iraq war, Panama, Guatemala, Nicaragua the list goes on. Not to mention that one little Mistake in Vietnam cost millions of innocent lives making it a pretty big thing to about just forgetting.
  I have not "unfriended" the US I live here, I have family here and I have even forgiven some of those above "mistakes" that lead to the deaths of friends and family of mine but many are not so forgiving and their point of view is valid too, talking about that, refreshing that allows us to prevent it from happening again.
  
  Yes I am an economic socialist not that it has anything to do with my views on US foreign policy.
  
  Edit:
  Oh you added more, I live here because I met a wonderful American, married her and had a family here.
  By Bull like Vietnam I mean us using superior military force to bully the rest of the world and/or undermine democracy overseas.
  I do not hate the US by any definition of the word, what I hate is pretending it's perfect and the ignorance that surrounds that view, perfect example "greatest democratic nation on earth" on what basis?
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  Dont Taze Me Broposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  With "friends" like you America needs no enemies.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Good response
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  Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  "the greatest democratic country on earth"
  
  You think our runaway plutocracy is still a democracy? You're so cute~
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Name me then one country that does not have an "agenda"!
  And how do you disguise genocide as a foreign policy failure? Have you no heart, no sympathy whatsoever for the millions killed by that "foreign policy" failure?
  
  And on what evidence do you present the US as the greatest democratic country on Earth?
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Vietnam is not the reason this country has a bad reputation. What you stated is an opinion, not a fact.
  
  If America is hated so much, why all the illegal immigration and immigration?
  I can answer that for you. The U.S is the most sought after nation to immigrate to more than any other nation which means it is a very desirable place.
  
  America is LOVED, not hated. America is hated by far Leftist who can not get rid of the U.S. Constitution and a strong belief in God.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Actually the USA is a highly sought after destination for immigrants, both legal and illegal because English is the second most common language in the world.
  
  It has nothing to do with trying to get rid of the constitution or not having a strong belief in God (many left wingers are sincerely religious) rather it is a wish that the US would adhere more strongly to its constitution and behave in a more Christian manner.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  There are Americans who adhere to the Constitution. It never said allow abortion or make massive government like the Left is pushing for.
  
  As far as behaving in a Christian matter, everything that the Left supports is not supported in the Bible.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  The left does not push for massive government, that we leave up to the right.
  
  Nothing in the constitution bans abortion either, though to listen to the right you would think it dominated it.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  There is NO amendment that supports abortion. The misconception by the Left to justify sick baby killing and anti family nonsense is not warranted.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  No,there is no amendment that supports abortion, just as there is no amendment that prohibits it.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I have no desire to live anywhere but the UK. To me it is the greatest country in the world. It has many faults, I don't deny that but I can see those faults and not blindly defend my country.
  What I can't do is defend any country that sponsors terrorism and uses dirty bombs against civilians.
  Where is your evidence that Iraq ever used chemical weapons against its own people, and even if they did, how does that justify wholesale slaughter of the people by the US?
  
  BTW, have you ever considered that the opposite of a truther (!) is a liar?
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Shall I go over atrocities committed by England or the Uk? That includes enslaving Blacks, Indians and even other Whites? England even opened up the Opium trade in China and created a huge drug market. UK historically are the ultimate terrorists.
  
  America is the last hope for Democracy. Uk's time faded a long time ago. Uk sucks, Socialism sucks too.
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  Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  America rose and will fall, just like every other empire in the history of the world. I wouldn't get too attached if I were you.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Not like your sorry country.
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  Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I wasn't aware Pennsylvania was a foreign country...
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  It was when I was there
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  Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  That's just Lancaster. We don't talk about Lancaster. :V
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  That's the ex county town of my home county
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  No problem for me if you do, I might even join in - what I won't do is deny or justify our transgressions over 500 years of Empire. (Get that, 500 years, that's about 250 before you were even thought of).
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I am glad you won't deny your transgressions for over 500 years. America will be significant 250 years in the future while your nation will continue to decline some more.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You are hardly significant any more beyond being the worlds bullies.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  We fight the world's bullies. Crybabies like your country sit there and call us names when someone dies.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  No, you are the worlds bullies now. I don't have to remind you do I?
  
  Oh yes and I would be quite happy to relinquish our role as the US Aircraft carrier Great Britain and stop being an easier to reach target than the US.
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  jandeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  John some of them are like our naughty little kids who need their hands slapping then one day they will realise how very foolish they were------Do you know John that the puritans----- ones they call the forefathers,Richard Whitely one of the leaders,from this area I live in who are no doubt our G.G.G.G,Grandfathers lived in this very road I am in now-the name for these naughty kids is little upstarts...Time they went to bed eh!
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  jandeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Who are you that you think we don't know the corruptness of our history ? remember and please know that those corrupt acts were done in the name of the ruling class, the class that we leftists ,who you seem to know zilch about ,are trying to overcome.......
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  They think as they are so ill informed about their history that everybody else is too!
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  One can never be il informed about the history of the UK. the biggest slave traders, sodomites and losers on the face of the planet who continue to whine because they are insignificant today.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I love how you live in a universe where being a sodomite is an insult it's hilarious. I would also remind you somewhere about 50% of the US population are also sodomites (statistically speaking)
  
  http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 … x/abstract
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You Leftist are the biggest criminals. I know that as fact.
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  jandeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Or Israel !!!!!!!!! Israel are the real rulers of U.S
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Proof?
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  Justsilvieposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Why do some people assume you are Un-American or Unpatriotic if you dare to voice an opinion or a critique of this country? I love this country, I know our strength and abilities but I am also aware of its shortcomings. I come from 3 generation of professional military and also married a soldier and I will be damned if anyone will tell me what I can say about my country.
  
  Hard as some of you who may find it to believe, we really are not so unique when it comes to believing we have a great country. Most people in other countries think the same way about theirs.
  
  This was country founded by a group of white men, who enslaved other men and treated women as chattel. We killed off, enslaved or disenfranchised the native people who were here before it was “discovered”. We have only started really treating people equally in the last 50 to 60 years a lot slower in some places and in some and it took the National Guard to make it happen there. That some of the people might have opinions that differ from yours does not mean they love this country less, it just might mean that have walked it in different shoes.
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  Credence2posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Gee, Silvie, I could not have said it better, hope that all is good!
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  teamrnposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  "Why do some people assume you are Un-American or Unpatriotic if you dare to voice an opinion or a critique of this country? "
  
  They should not consider your voicing your opinions as your being somehow less patriotic than they.
  
  However, I think that many feel that those who criticize the CONSTITUTION and want to CHANGE it to 'keep up with the times and modernize it'' to suit their agenda, should find other shores
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Spare us the history lesson because we already know it. White men also fought to end slavery as well, or did you forget that part? Women have rights now thanks partly to White Men.
  
  No nation has done so much to reverse the ills of the past like America. America is indeed unique because it was the first nation in the Western hemisphere to end slavery and become a super power in less than 200 years.
  
  No other nation comes close.
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  Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Ed, I am a lucky man. I have traveled and seen wonders all over the world. I have fallen in love in four countries and been incarcerated in the same. I have worked for or with various governments and various multinational corporations. Where ever I go I walk miles a day and absorb the people and land. I have never been in an undeveloped nation and heard a local say, they would like to move to Germany, England, France, Japan or the Emerates.
  A better life is associated with America. That is my view. My country is awesome and constantly getting more awesome. If you do not believe me walk the Appalachians the Rockies or the Sierras. This land is my land, this land is your land, you are great to be a part of it.
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  maxoxam41posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  It is surprising to see people still wondering why America is disliked! Just look at our governments' policies. Just look at our domestic and international policies. Does it ring a bell or shall I continue? Less freedom, more cuts than won't affect the villains (meaning the elite), people are still struggling, the collapse of the economy is imminent... In what way do you feel comfortable to be an American?
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  What America do you live in? Your own version of it?
  I feel just fine to be an America. Better than being in Cuba, Myanmar or China any day.
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  Becky Katzposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I believe that it is because we keep electing politicians that are in it for themselves and not for the betterment of our country. "We The People" do not seem to matter anymore. We are lied to by our politicians, our media, and our corporations. We feel that we have been divorced and the other half got the house and car. Our government keeps growing and our salaries aren't stretching nearly as far.
  We did receive a bit of a patriotism shot 9/11, but then during the Presidential election, we were divided again. Our President decided that he needed to do what he could to divide us and I could see every one of his comments divide the people within days. They were no longer united in a common cause, it was us and them. I miss it.
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  Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Interesting, what is it about this question that got such a wonderful numeric response -- i.e. a vocal majority but also the most shallow commenting around.
  But that I guess is part of the Greatness.
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  PrettyPantherposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Black and white thinking is a sign of....
  
  Google it if you're curious.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I used to have a brown-haired tabby cat. He would be nice one minute and then mean the next.
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Zelkiiroposted 11 years ago
Reasonable Americans hate America because America transferred its power from politicians to businessmen.

And then the rest of the world hates America because America keeps lording itself over everyone else and acts like it's better than them.
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jandeeposted 11 years ago
I Don't see why we cannot have a say when your say is insulting almost everyone who is foreign to you in US. I had many close friends in the US services,many rears ago and they were absolute gentlemen-most-anyway. Unfortunately a few were racist and it was sad the way they had been socialised into that way. Manchester was a mix of everything and they took these servicemen in their stride. When you speak of people resenting stuff that you had and have now lost you should realise that what you had was at the expense of poor countries, for example now the way you are all being punished because your boss class are pouring your money into drones and other torturous things to persecute foreign lands to get their oil and other stuff. You should realise that people from Europe can distinguish between the 2 classes in your country and anybody with an ounce of sense understands that the workers of the world are all having a rough time at the hands of the parasites in charge today.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  The workers in the U.S. are the best paid in the world. Did foreigners recognize that? At least you can move up in the U.S. Foreigners do it all the time after they are done finishing their college at the top educational facilities the U.S. has to offer.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You do realise that the myth about upward mobility is just that, a myth there about about none countries ahead of you on the mobility stakes.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  No your lies and misconceptions are.
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Astra Nomikposted 11 years ago
Some of my best friends are American, so no, I don't hate America. I visited New York once and I was dumbstruck by the scale of it all. Perhaps Americans need to re-discover America, from its history, it's stories, its achievements, discoveries, contributions to the world, and its successes, not judge it by its failures. No place can ever be perfect, and perhaps that is the way it will always be. Or do you want the glass to be half empty?

Try to see America through it's own people. The secret of how any place truly is, comes from knowing and understanding the people who live there. If you want to see a social pariah state, look at the state of North Korea. It is divided from the South part of Korea by the small number of leaders who badly manage it. That is bad political leadership. That's how a failed state looks.
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tirelesstravelerposted 11 years ago
Could it be the media hates the United States. Richard Blum (husband o fSenator Dianne Feinstein ) and Al Gore just sold their media station to Al Jazeria. When was the last time you saw or heard a program that was patriotic and made the U.S. look respectable? Look at how media treats people. Do the reality shows portray kind respectable people as role models? Do reality shows thrive on mean people? Is reality TV real life?
Nika Khrushchev once said the United States would fall, and not a shot would be fired.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Ooooh Al-Jazeera that is a very Arab sounding name obviously they hate America and seek to harm it. Precisely the kind of attitude that is a big part of the problem.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You seek to help the haters of America. This can especially be said with your pitiful comments I have seen so far.
  
  You and Al Jazeera have THAT much in common.
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ahorsebackposted 11 years ago
I guess the bottom line is that everyone loves to hate the big guy on the block , all the little bullies in the neighborhood fear him ! All the good people look to him for protection . Its difficult to be so needed and so hated at the same time ! I personally understand this delemna , and make no appologies to anyone ! And I truely believe that most Americans do too ! So if you [any nation ] feels the need to Unfriend America ......especially to the point of hatred .remember , the drones are coming !
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Vietnam, Chile, Argentina, Uruguay, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Cambodia, The Philippines, Bolivia, Paraguay, Iraq... just to name a few, the problem is often we are the bully.
  
  Also the arrogance in your comment is a big part of the problem, the world does not need us and oh so many people all around the world just want us out of their affairs just as we would not want them in ours.
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  cheaptrickposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  The worst day of my life was in Vietnam; It was the day I realized we were not the good guys. Did I stop loving my country? No,. Did I open my eyes and resolve to do what I could to bring about the change needed? Yes I did. We Americans are in the process of giving America a political enema...shit happens.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Could not agree more.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, your misguided and one-sided put downs are the problem. If you would like to discuss the nations which are Left Wing and bullies, we can do that as well.
  
  I can start with the now insignificant UK.
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  Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  >accuses other nations of being bullies
  >proceeds to belittle other nations
  
  Mmm...delicious hypocrisy.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  The UK left wing! You have got to be joking!
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Uk is a filthy Leftwing welfare state filled with atheist losers. That is no joke.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  That is the biggest joke I've heard all day!
  Cameron is a true conservative ripping pensioners to shreds whilst lining the pockets of his elite.
  He's trying to out Thatcher Thatcher - oh but of course you will think she was a socialist as well.
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  jandeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks, me darling ! Any more compliments ..............
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I find his ignorance about the UK slightly amusing
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  jandeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  OOps! You mean his IGNORANCE ?
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Nah, just ignorance
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  jandeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Shall we set Ossie Osmond on him ??
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Hm, a bit heavy don't you think?
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  jandeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Okay ! Forget it ! We'll send in Father Jack ...........
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  Credence2posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Marquis, Refering to Britain in this way is not very cordial, are you actually the Marquis de Sade reincarnated?
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Nope, Sade was interesting interesting.
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cheaptrickposted 11 years ago
Countries don't Do anything. Americans haven't "unfriended " their country as though it were some Facebook "Friend". The struggle is for equality and to better our country rather than lie down and except the status quo as most of the world has done. Even if it takes a civil war to do it.
"Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants". Thomas Jefferson...It's time.
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Ericdierkerposted 11 years ago
Esperanza

Many people look to the American government and find fault. They should. Many look to our foreign policy and find fault -- they should. Many look to our violence and find fault, they should. Of course many look to our consumerism and find fault and they should. Our two party system is polarizing much of the country, that is bad.

But none of those institutions or people are what make America great. Down here in our multilingual Pacific Southwest most of us know the term: Esperanza. This term is best translated as a dream and hope. This is the reason for immigration, this is the reason great things happen, this is the reason we work hard for our children.

Yes we face many problems from our environment to our corporate greed to lack of compassion. But we always rise to the occasion. And we welcome others to come do it with us. Each day a new "Journey" highers a new lead singer and a fatherless black man becomes President and huge charitable accomplishments and medical breakthroughs just happen!

If I want a friend, I want it to be one with Esperanza!!
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  teamrnposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  "Many people look to the American government and find fault." They find fault (which is their right), but yet they still continue to accept million in foreign aid and misuse that id.
  
  Yes, that begs the obvious; what are we doing PROVIDING the aid to countries who don't appreciate it and don't use it wisely, or worse still, AGAINS US? Shouldn't our government have it's head examined for donating nearly $70 Billion to countries whose leaders don't always 'dole' out the money to the intended recipients,, should we cut off foreign aid to everyone (especially since we're broke) and stop being the world's policemen and requite every country to APPLY for funds for a certain project?
  
  This is a discussion we should have as Americans.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I take it you don't understand how foreign aid works!
  Usually the money is tied up in such a way that it can only be spent with the donor country and even if it isn't you can be sure that aid is "buying" a piece of the country.
  
  And hey,if they do use it against you, well never fear they will most likely be using American made objects against you.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Beggars can not be choosers.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Nope, not much sense in that reply.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  That is because I am correct.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Do you really think so! You spout on from a position of ignorance about a country that you obviously don't know the first thing about, and yet you reckon you are correct!
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You obviously do not know the first thing about America. Yet you spout your ignorance. Stop looking at Leftist t.v trash.
  
  Your country sucks. Mine doesn't. My country invented many things that yours take for granted such as the World Wide Web and the very software your pitiful self used to get on the internet.
  
  So do not come here talking trash about America when they are the reason your pitiful self has what YOU DO TODAY.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Tim Berners Lee is an Englishman as was Alan Turing.
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  Hollie Thomasposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  John, don't be silly man. America invented everything, therefore the internet was invented by an american named Google
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  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  No, that was Al Gore - a different American. I thought everybody knew that!
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  Hollie Thomasposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Ok Wilderness, I stand corrected.
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  jandeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  It isn't your country.
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  Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  And none of it would've been possible without the Sumerians inventing, you know, writing, yet I don't see you talking about how awesome Sumeria was.
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jandeeposted 11 years ago
How much do you owe to china teamrn ?
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  teamrnposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I owe in foreign debt about $52K-$142K, how much of it is to what country, I'm not sure. But the money owed to China....they owe &750 billion to the US, not including interest on that debt,
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  How much does China owe the U.S?
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  teamrnposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  READ, "how much does China owe the US' in my post above but I'll tell you again: close to a trillion dollar (including interest)
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you teamrn.
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healthyfitnessposted 11 years ago
I am an immigrant to this country and I absolutely love it!
People are not as mean as everyone makes them seem and the opportunities for success by far exceed that of anywhere else in the world.

I think the main problem is that most Americans forget just how good they have it, or as the old saying goes "You don't know what you have until its gone"
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Petra Vlahposted 11 years ago
The post is suppose to address the WHY are evermore Americans unfriended their own country and not about the way the rest of the world sees and feels about America (that part we know and it has been discussed repeatedly on the forums).
As they travel the world and get to know other ways of life, more and more Americans are getting pass the slogan "we are the best and the greatest". People are disillusioned with the way the country is being run by incompetent and corrupt politicians, by greedy and selfish corporations. The "american dream" is still alive ONLY in the minds and hearts of people from other (mostly undeveloped) countries, but is dead and buried for most Americans as they see their future getting farther away from what they have hoped for themselves and their children
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WillStarrposted 11 years ago
The answer to your question is in the many hateful replies you are getting from the far-left, whether they are Americans or not. America is the greatest nation on Earth, built by hard working, rugged individuals with high moral standards, and that is what the blood sucking, leftist leeches openly despise about America.

The America haters are all on the left. That's all we need to know.
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  teamrnposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you Will for putting in a nutshell...There are some far right kooks, but they, too love their country, though it manifests in a strange way. Timothy McVeigh comes to mind.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  We must be reading different threads! I've not seen one hateful comment. I'v seen, even made, highly critical comments but criticism isn't hateful.
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jandeeposted 11 years ago
Petra you are so correct (except where the question was added to ,I think,,when Horseback said all nations)
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WillStarrposted 11 years ago
Everyone attacking America here is a known leftist, and many are not Americans at all. One is even an avowed communist, with her precious little red book...written by the worst mass murderer in history!

American is the greatest nation the world has ever known, and that just galls the leftist kooks. That's why they try to lecture and scold their American betters.
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  Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Because racism, misogyny, and the insurmountable gap between rich and poor totally makes you great, right? Ask the Roman Empire how that's workin' out for them.
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  teamrnposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  How do you ascribe a hatred of women, racism to Will Starr?. There is a gap between rich and poor, but I don't see what that gap has to do with the American greatness that Will Starr speaks of.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Such BS... Thats why people hate America... when utter fallacies are spouted about a previously and potentially great Nation.
  We have made mistakes... We Can Should, Will correct them. The people have the final say. If we do not exercise that say or worse... loose that say, then we'll see an America to be hated... now?
  NO!
  Not quite yet.
  Take it back, I say.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  People like Zelkiiro is why I HATE Socialists and the Left wing in general. Concerning America, the vile Leftists are always anti patriotic, they are cowards, they do basically the same thing they say the Right is doing too. They nit-pick Amendments that they say shouldn't exist and then these Leftist lunatics talk of a living breathing Constitution.
  
  Liberals, Socialists, Communists, Democrats, Democratic Socialists, Social Democrats, Anarchists, Left-leaning Libertarians are all TRASH.
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  Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  So the Left is trash for thinking huge corporations shouldn't be the dictators of a free market and a democratic government?
  
  Alright, which big conglomerate is sponsoring you to spout your drivel?
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Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years ago
I am tired of beating around the bush. Resist the NWO! It is trying to take the US through the push for socialism. If we hate America they will be able to destroy it and take it.
Resist the NWO by resisting all propaganda toward Socialism. We can resist the NWO by embracing the original precepts of the country by holding onto them tightly within our minds. Focus on the Founding Father's intents for us... they knew it would be hard to hold onto a free country. But, if this nation is on the same page against the attack, (which is gaining in strength and speed,) being waged upon us, we should be able to hang on to our freedom. We have to fight hard... through love. NOW!

Hatred and negativity will not help and is a sign of the enemy.
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  teamrnposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I feel that anyone who is NOT willing to, like you say, Kathryn, "by embracing the original precepts of the country by holding onto them tightly in our minds" and I'd add hearts, ought to find a different country.
  
  The USA was founded on the principles of the Constitution. COULD THAT BE MORE PLAIN? That's our form of government PERIOD. If you don't like it, LUMP IT and leave.
  
  That Constitution calls for a Constitutional democracy which allows for different political parties, but in your heart of hearts, if you can't ABIDE by the Constitutional principles (which is the law of the lag) and only want to change the Constitution, you'll be met with resistance all the way. Just pack your bags and go elsewhere. I[m staying. There I've said my peace. Ciao
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  Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You seriously believe in that so-called New World Order? Do you also believe in alien abductions, feng shui, and the Jersey Devil?
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, there has been a push from behind the scenes for a long long time. it is now gaining in strength. Wake Up!
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  Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  So, is red a good color for the chi in my living room?
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  ...Is that a hint of something you know and we do not?
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  Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Feng shui! I thought you believed in stupid garbage like that if you also believe in the so-called NWO.
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  innersmiffposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  The existence of NWO is completely un-controversial. It's pretty much accepted in politics that world-governance is the ultimate aim of western powers, both Bush's, Gordon Brown and Pops referring to it directly, and long term domestic and foreign policies mirroring the wishes of the Council on Foreign Relations.
  
  It's funny, many people will readily admit that global governance is the aim, and a good thing. For some it's a 'conspiracy theory', for others it's 'cooperative globalisation'.
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  teamrnposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Zelkiiro, Do I believe in the NWO? As far as nations organizing to foster living TOGETHER peacefully, instead of conflcitually, I believe in it. But, I believe that to obtain it, the world of banking will change and we'll all be carbon copies of each other. To that extent I DO NOT.
  
  I do feel that anyone who does not believe in living the way the Constitution directs us to, AND that includes all the founding docs and the amendments, ought to leave and don't let the door hit them in the butt on the way out.
  
  So, unless you intend to live by the Constitution and not try to change it, (like progressives are wont to do) and support our Constitutional democracy;grab your purse and passport, take a trip to the bank and head on to the more prosperous (NOW-with emphasis on NOW) Finland, etc. That won'd last for long.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I can believe that.
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WillStarrposted 11 years ago
I categorize the never-ending left wing attacks on America as 'hateful' comments. You can dispute that if you wish, but it doesn't change the fact that all the America haters are on the left, like you.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Thus proving how wrong you are. I don't hate America, I don't even dislike it. I find its foreign policies abhorrent but that is not hating the country.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You are indeed an America hater. Every single comment has negatively been addressed to the U.S. from you. So please do not lie. I have answered most of the bile you have posted.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You haven't answered any of my points. You might have thrown a bit of a distraction in their way, but not answered.
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WillStarrposted 11 years ago
I didn't say you hated America. I said you are on the left.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  What you said was " You can dispute that if you wish, but it doesn't change the fact that all the America haters are on the left, like you."
  
  If you didn't mean to accuse me of hating America you should have worded that differently.
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ahorsebackposted 11 years ago
All of these . or most at least , are good questions and comments for our chewing on ! While I agree America has made mistakes , its only corporate American influences in our politics that is to blame ! The military industrials influences , Hallidburton , Blackwater , Boieng , G-E, lobbyisms by financial interests have helped create and carry on the misdeeds ! Viet -Nam etc., The American people will never stand for outside interests ...NWO. etc, having thier way here ! I would personally rather we burn in revolution than join them ! The founding fathers ...they all knew this too ! As to keeping our nose at home , I would unhook from the world in a miniute , No more foriegn aid , no more defending those who can't themselves ! No more ass kissing the middle east .
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  YEP!
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WillStarrposted 11 years ago
The left has been attacking America since the late sixties, calling America all sorts of vile names and hurling endless accusations. To me, that is pure hate speech, so I simply ignore those who blithely deny that America is hated by the left. They can deny that they personally hate the US, but the group hate is obvious and beyond deniability.

Barack Hussein Obama is implementing the 'dreams from his father', an ardent America hater, and is determined to keep his oath to 'fundamentally transform' the greatest nation on Earth into another failed Euro-style socialistic state.

I don't think he will succeed, because more and more Americans are becoming increasingly alarmed at his massive spending and the soaring inflation that necessarily follows. Our dollar is now worth just four cents, and it is teetering on total collapse. I don't doubt at all that Obama would be quite pleased if it did fail, as long as he can blame it on Republicans.
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  Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  "another failed Euro-style socialistic state"
  
  Huh. Last I checked, most of Europe (especially Finland, Sweden, Denmark, The Netherlands, Switzerland, and Norway) were not only prosperous, but faring far better than we currently are.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  NWO speak, right there.
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  Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  She's onto us, Jim! Release the hounds!
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  So, move to Europe.
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  Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, let me just gather up my $400 and buy a passport, a plane ticket, a house, a car, and all the various visas to be able to start the job I apparently already have in a foreign country I have yet to visit.
  
  /facepalm
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  There is Wish, Hope and Will. Which one do you have?
  Probably just Wish.
  I, for one, am very sorry you are stuck in a country that you despise so much.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Do I take it then that if you are ever critical of your other half you could be said to despise them?
  
  "Oh dear you've put on a bit of weight (and I despise you for it)"
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  uh, he despises it.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  No, do you?
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Okay John, Sometimes you make sense, sometimes you don't. This time is one of the latter. I love this country. In fact I have a cousin (of long ago) on my mother's mother's side and we have a picture of him in a locket. He had long hair and he fought in the revolutionary war. Yes, It is in my blood to stand up for this country. We need to get away from the influence of anything which takes us away from the precepts which that cousin of my mother's mother fought for.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I only asked if you despised everything you were critical of!
  
  Questioning isn't moving you away from anything, it could just as easily move you back to what your ancestors fought for.
  
  From where I stand you seem to have moved well away from any ideals that the founding fathers had.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  how?
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
  
  Pretty socialist that and how for away from it you have flown. There is not one mention in there of "some" or "few".
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  teamrnposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Hardly (If ever) critical of other half(, John Holden. At the time that 2 become one, they agree on a lot, but they also agree that there will be disagreements in their relationship that they'll work out..
  
  However, FUNDAMENTAL disagreements (the kind involved in any pre-marital counseling, that most don't take seriously) in philosophy or irreconcilable differences, are grounds for a divorce.
  
  If the couple, or participants in a partnership (person and state) invested 10 minutes thinking about his/her future with his/her partner, instead of looking forward to what is NEVER a free ride, this problem would be avoided.
  
  So, long answer to your short question. If you and your other half disagree, that's ground for discussion. If you can't even discuss without a fight-that's grounds for seriously rethinking your partnership. Now, apply that to our nation and see where people fall.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You do realise who is refusing to discuss here don't you? And it isn't the left.
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  teamrnposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  John, by implication, you say that the right isn't wiling to discuss. I plead ;guilty' to being on the right, but I'm discussing, just like Will, Kathryn, a horseback and others are.
  
  Their discussions have MEAT.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Will doesn't discuss, he just throws insults, Kathryn, well I'm not sure what Kathryn does but there isn't a lot of discussion in it, Horseback makes some valid points but doesn't really enter into the discussion and as for the others, who? Marquis?.
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  teamrnposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, they;re faring better than we are by some standard s NOW. But when they go down,, they'll fall and HARD.
  
  The US of A doesn't have to, hasn't given into temptation to change it's form of government-YET, but regularly we re erode the Constitution.
  
  Since no one ini DC is acting like a grownup, we must come to the table and demand 'grownup ship' to take our country back. After another revolution here, will we have the guts, the intestinal fortitude to write a document so short that says SO MUCH without spending 30 years in parliamentary procedure problems and 'he said, she said' battles?
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Thus demonstrating the basic American misunderstanding of the rest of the world!
  
  There is nothing socialist about Europe, we have all the same "leaders" that you have.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  the "leaders" being the Corporations, as he has explained time and time again.
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  teamrnposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Nothing socialist about Europe????? Help me understand what you mean, truly. I'd like to know, because right now my jaw is loved into position.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Quite simply the capitalists still run Europe, not the socialists.
  
  Hope your jaw soon becomes unloved -- help, no I don't, I'm sure you have a lovely jaw
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WillStarrposted 11 years ago
"What you said was " You can dispute that if you wish, but it doesn't change the fact that all the America haters are on the left, like you."

If you didn't mean to accuse me of hating America you should have worded that differently."

Nonetheless, I did not say you are an America hater. I said you are a leftist (which you finally admitted some time back, after first denying it!). People who do not know you should be made aware that you are a very dishonest man.

I also notice that you did not deny that all America haters are on the left, because it's so obvious that they are.
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  Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  So I'm guessing the Religious Right, who love nothing more than destroying the First Amendment and trying to turn what's left of our democracy into a theocracy, aren't included in that exclusive "America hater" club?
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  BLA BLA BLA Is this being a troll?
  No, It is freedom of speech.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  False, the Religious Right has the RIGHT to protest attacks against Christianity done by the secular Left. The Left wants to destroy Christianity.
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  Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  And the Constitution states that the government can't stop them, because the US government cannot sponsor or support any religion.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  The U.S government can not force secular nonsense on the Churches either ie. forcing churches to pay for baby-killing contraceptions.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I did not deny that all America haters are on the left because it is patently absurd.
  
  I'm pondering what to do about your typical right wing slur on my character.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Your character was in question as soon as you started posting your anti American trash.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I'm so sorry, I'd forgotten that the mighty America went weak at the knees at the first hint that they didn't get everything exactly right.
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  teamrnposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  What didn't they get exact;ly right?
  
  2 things are missing only TEO things
  
  1. term limits But they never thought, it NEVERr dawned on them that people woulnd't just put in a few years and go back to the farm or doc offices , laser office or wherever
  
  2. They didn't propose any kind of campaign finance reform to keep candidates on an equal playing field. I propose that during reelection seasons, that air time be free, to prevent money from corrupting an election.
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  teamrnposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  John, I'm really curious as to what you feel the "mighty Americans" didn't get quite right. Care to discuss?
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WillStarrposted 11 years ago
"So I'm guessing the Religious Right, who love nothing more than destroying the First Amendment and trying to turn what's left of our democracy into a theocracy, aren't included in that exclusive "America hater" club?"

I have never met a religious American who wants a theocracy. I challenge you to either prove that absurd allegation or apologize for your blatant and hateful leftist falsehood
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  Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  State-sponsored religion = theocracy. Ask any Christian, and they'll tell you they want America to be a Christian nation with the Bible being mandatory teaching in schools with Biblical laws enforced. If that's not a theocracy...no, there is no rhetorical alternative, that is a theocracy.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  More lies. So what are you, some Leftwing atheist?
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  Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  A Centrist agnostic.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  A centrist agnostic is no better than a far Left atheist.
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  innersmiffposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You're not helping your cause here.
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WillStarrposted 11 years ago
"I'm pondering what to do about your typical right wing slur on my character."

Telling the truth is not a slur. You did falsely deny being a leftist.

Or are you going to deny it?
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  And when exactly did I deny being a leftist? Come on, seriously, what did I claim to be?Ultra right wing?
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  jandeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  He wouldn't know anyway cause he/they think Obama is a leftist so it is a little difficult to get any sense.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  The crime in question is a little hazy now but as I recall I denied being a political Liberal (which as you know is more right wing than left) but accepted that I was liberal in my outlook on life.
  
  For that he has stalked me for many months, accusing me of being "a dishonest man" went too far and I have done something that I have never done lightly. Whether any action is taken we shall have to see.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Liberalism is a failure. Give your life instead to Jesus.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Liberalism is a right wing concept and in that I would agree that it is a failure. I will however hold fast to liberty promoting liberal values.
  
  I don't remember Jesus ever preaching the sort of narrow way that you tread.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Liberalism does not mean liberty or promoting values of the sort. Even Jesus would agree.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus was a liberal.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I have heard that lie before. I do not think Jesus was for abortion or sex out of marriage. I never heard Jesus once say that he was for gays or lesbians marrying either.
  
  Calling Jesus a Liberal is sickening.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yet I don't remember him ever saying anything against either abortion or gay marriage either.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Liberals aren't "for" abortion or sex out of marriage nor are they "for" gay or lesbian marriage.
  They just say it's none of our business - get on with your life and make your own peace with your God - who isn't me, or anybody else but yourself.
  
  In the real world many liberals are against abortion and many right wingers are for it. The difference being that the anti right wingers want to impose their will on everybody else, whereas the liberal doesn't, they want people to be free to make up their own minds without big daddy government telling them what to do..
  
  Didn't Jesus throw the money lenders out of the Temple, didn't he feed five thousand,didn't he say that it was easier to pass a camel through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven? How sickening is that?
  
  By the way, Liberal with a capital L has a different meaning to liberal with a lower case l.
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  jandeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Eh John ! I always thought he was a revolutionary Communist and that was why he was murdered the same as Che and Kevin and Joe Hill and Victor Jarra and a million others.............
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  teamrnposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  "And."
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  Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You mean the Jesus who preaches on giving up all material possessions to follow him and aid the poor? I thought that went against everything your church and your Fox News tells you to do?
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  jandeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Don't worry about it ! Jesus would send him packing................
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You need Jesus more than I do.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Stop reaching for straws. If you want me to get into the Bible, well then I shall.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yes do, I want to hear about how Jesus didn't really preach compassion.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Compassion did not mean supporting people drug habits or making a massive government for a group of lazy people to stay on welfare, have a bunch of babies out of wedlock either.
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  jandeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Why was Jesus persecuted and crucified ?
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus was persecuted and crucified for humanity. He was betrayed by Judas and turned in to the Romans.
  
  Jesus died for the sins of the others who would follow. The sins being those who are atheists, drug users, prostitutes, philanderers, gamblers ect.
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  jandeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yes as a reminder of the doings of the keepers of wealth and what they will do to keep their greedy mits on it, my friend...
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  jandeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  His profile is no more ! Gone ! Finished ! As Monty Python would say......
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ahorsebackposted 11 years ago
Unfortunately we can't have a discussion without the perfect pattern of our liberal party divisiveness , taking hold as planned and designed by liberals , A hidden agenda of the left , revealed ! Destroy our constitution , burn our patriotic followings our heritage and love for country , at all costs ! The socialistic left in America has a plan ! The N.W.O ! But .......who''s gonna pay for it like everything else America pays for !........Ask Russia about your future plans , ask eastern Europe ! It didn't work there , it sure as hell won't work here !
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  But politically Liberals are not left wing, think liberty, libertarian and all the other libers of the right!
  
  If the US is anything like the UK it isn't the left that is destroying our heritage and love for our country, that is another right wing myth.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Liberals are LEFT of moderate. You could almost say Liberals resemble Socialists. Liberals believe in high taxes like Socialists, Liberals believe in massive government like Socialists, Liberals cling to Socialist notions in spite of socialism’s consistent record of failure—out of blind faith.
  
  Arrogance, false compassion, emotionalism, and blind faith in a system that not only does not work but breeds laziness, sloth, and irresponsibility— these are the characteristics necessary to be a socialist.
  
  Liberals are doomed.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  So why do you support a system that breeds laziness, sloth, and irresponsibility?
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I don't, That is why I am a socialist
  
  I am more than happy to compare rates of economic growth in developing socialist nations or quality of life in developed socialist nations with anything you have.
  
  Perhaps you are forgetting the socialist catchphrase. "He who does not work neither shall he eat" Welfare is a purely capitalist problem caused by it's inability to create sufficient work. Welfare is only a necessity in capitalist systems.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You are a welfare bum who gets a check every month. Of course you and people like you who live in small developed Socialist nations will be happy.
  
  You are a lazy and silly person. Yet you are happy about your current situation.
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  teamrnposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Josak, if you're socialist, you shoulldn't be living under the laws of a Constitutional democracy. But, I seem to recall that you live in another country-right?
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  teamrnposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  John, she's got a point about the discussion remaining ON TOPOC,
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  teamrnposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  John, do you think liberalism-libertarianism=liberty?
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  No, I think liberalism + libertarianism = liberty.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  On the contrary plenty of conservatives are also not too blind to see it, hubber wilderness for example or even Ron Paul, that our policing of the world has often been irresponsible, unnecessary and intrusive, sometimes just downright evil.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  America's policing of the world brought an end to the Cold War and saved many nations from being invaded by the Communist bloc. Ron Paul is an idiot to ignore that.
  
  Capitalist Democracy defeated unnecessary and intrusive far Left Communism and will do the same for blind Socialism.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Brought an end to the cold war huh...
  
  Actually most of the policing failed (like Vietnam) at the cost of millions of innocent lives and the places where democratic governments were overthrown and replaced by fascist dictatorships to prevent communism or socialism have all elected socialist or communist leadership since overthrowing those dictatorships.
  
  Currently more than a quarter of the worlds nations have elected socialist parties in power (members of the socialist international or statedly socialist . That is without even getting into social democratic, revolutionary liberalism and communism. The number grows larger every year at the expense of capitalist nations, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You are concerned about innocent lives but the problem was caused by Communist North Vietnam trying to FORCE its evil way onto South Vietnam. It was more like a stale mate there. We both know that North Vietnamese Communism will cease to exist and the people will truly experience freedom and democracy. They will not experience the tyranny and fear of the far Left Communism no more. I hope you also feel the same way when Stalin killed over 20,000,000 INNOCENT LIVES. Communism is a failure.
  
  The Marshall Plan was the reason America acted against North Vietnam, the same reason goes for North Korea. Communism is EVIL. Liberalism and Socialism follows Communism in the threshold of evil.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  North Vietnam did not force it's way into South Vietnam, you need a good history lesson , there was supposed to be an election for re-unification but the US blocked the election from occurring because the communists would win thus forcing war.
  
  I am not personally a communist but Vietnam is doing pretty well and all the independent polling shows high support for the government, personally I would prefer a democracy and the stats make it more than apparent they would choose a far left socialist leader if given the right to vote.
  
  And of course I do, Stalin's purges are unforgivable.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  North Vietnam FORCED its way onto South Vietnam as far as we are concerned. I need no history lesson from a shiftless and lazy individual such as yourself. America was enforcing the Marshal Plan.
  
  Which Vietnam is doing pretty well? I am pretty sure it is not the part that tried to force the Communist trash onto the rest of the people.
  
  You think the people of Vietnam would choose irresponsible and massive government over hard work, perseverance and wealth?
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  teamrnposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Vietnam is doing pretty well . I'm still a little stunned at this statement. Please tell me how. Couldn't be the North. You really think the South is doing pretty well? Do talk
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  teamrnposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  "Vietnam is doing pretty well " and all the inependent polling? What about REAL anecdotes.
  
  In Vietnam, SOME people in the towns live life much as the western word. BUT, make your way outiside of the cities, and women are dropping babies in the rice paddies and not much has changed.
  
  My physician goes over to Vietman several times a year and altho he's a specialist, he teaches doctors the basics and they are woefully inadequate,
  
  The North Vietnamese leaders squander any aid that comes their way that is intended for the relief of those in outlying areas, which happens to be most of the country.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  And what exactly is life like outside US cities? No poverty, no shortage of medical attention! I believe you.
  
  And if Vietnamese doctors are so inadequate wouldn't you have done better to train them in a practical way rather than just giving them more work to practice their inadequate skills on?
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  teamrnposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, John, I've heard it first hand from several sources. In the US of A, we still have running water and people get airlifted to hospitals if need be. In rural Vietnam, it's no day at the beach; granted, people don't know what they're missing, but their comes a point in time when walking around in crap and filthy water isn't healthy.
  
  As far as Vietnamese doctors and my docs, mission, I'm confused as to what you're talking about. They need basic training TO become MDs. I don't know what is more practical than basic training in their country, in their culture, in their language. Who is giving them " more work to practice their inadequate skills on?"
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I'm talking about a little thing that you seem to have forgotten about - war.
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  teamrnposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, John, I've heard it first hand from several sources. In the US of A, we still have running water and people get airlifted to hospitals if need be. In rural Vietnam, it's no day at the beach; granted, people don't know what they're missing, but their comes a point in time when walking around in crap and filthy water isn't healthy.
  
  As far as Vietnamese doctors and my docs, mission, I'm confused as to what you're talking about. They need basic training TO become MDs. I don't know what is more practical than basic training in their country, in their culture, in their language. Who is giving them " more work to practice their inadequate skills on?"
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  jandeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Aren't you the lucky one ------I was the one who had to go begging in streets and pubs along with other ETHICAL people to scrimp and save in order to purchase an Ambulance that was filled with medical aid and Blood to be sent to Vietnam(your nightmare) FREELY transported by the Soviets so don't tell me about VIETNAM-you are ,as you say, CONFUSED and overbearing.........
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  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I don't believe you'll find very many American women dropping babies in the rice paddies they work in....
  
  No, John, poverty, or poor medical care such as seen in Vietnam is very rare in the US. Those living in poverty here are "poor" only in relation to other US citizens; relative to much of the world they have riches beyond wildest dreams.
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  jandeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Not to mention landmines and Orange snow to welcome the new babies .
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  jandeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You dear marquis are so ignorant. I am amazed at your lack of factual information.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  No, you are the one who is ignorant. Lack the facts? What facts silly little red commie loser ARE YOU SPEAKING OF?
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  jandeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Josak you are too gentle !
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Communism KILLS like drugs.
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jandeeposted 11 years ago
Josak my friend ,my comrade!,
What the hell are you saying about Stalin ????Tell me my friend !!
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Josak knows that Stalin was a crazed murdering maniac responsible for the deaths of more than 20,000,000 Russian people. Like a FOOL you believe in Communism trash.
  
  Josak has displayed to me that he has some form of sense UNLIKE you. Moa Zedong was no better with his lovely murdering of millions of innocent Chinese people. I guess the Cultural Revolution worked well there in China.
  
  One thing the LEFT knows how to do; that is kill millions of people by starving them or placing them in labor camps. This is how the LEFT thinks about humanity.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Personally I think Stalin ruined something which could have been amazing, the USSR had faults (in my view primarily not embracing democracy) but it's beginnings were a new hopeful thing, the first nation in the world to legalize homosexuality, the first nation in the world to give women equal rights, workers rights, the first nation in the world to embrace true internationalism and Stalin ruined that, he sent people to gulags for being gay, we revoked women's rights, he removed the right to organize labor, he descended into nationalism. So I am not a fan to put it mildly.
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  jandeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  ?
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jandeeposted 11 years ago
Josak ! What are you scared of ? Why do you say you are not a communist ??
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  He knows better now.
  
  Josak is now part of DEMOCRACY.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  So is Jandee.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I am a socialist and I see there to be an important difference, I believe that people should be able to own their own space, their home etc and be able to do whatever they wish there. and I believe in democracy which puts me at odds with the dictatorship of the proletariat ideal.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  People do own their own space, home and etc. People can NOT do whatever they wish because it may be harmful. Take for instance, there could be a man who likes to look at, touch and have sex with 10 year old girls.
  
  Would you allow that? After all, he is just doing whatever he wants.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Seriously?
  I was referring to the fact that under a communist system all property is community owned.
  
  Also obviously not, I did not think it required qualification that they may do whatever they want in their own house so long as it is not harming others.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Josak, property is confiscated and state owned. You own NOTHING under Communism. You are just a unit, that is all.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  How are you struggling with this? What you just said is precisely what I was saying without the extremist nonsense about being just a unit.
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  Education Answerposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Josak,
  
  Socialist governments take, and then they take more. I can find a better way to spend my money. Since when has the government ever been efficient? My money is best spend by me, not a government that provides for me with my own money. I can do that without any government intervention.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Needless to say I disagree, in a complete socialist system there is no taxation anyway so what you are saying is incorrect.
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  Education Answerposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Where would I find a "complete socialist system" as an example?
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  teamrnposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Where is there a couple socialist system? In theory that may be true, but where is it operable, in practice? Atlantis? Negril Bay? Hedonism?
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  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Eden. Or heaven, maybe.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  In the same place that there is a full capitalist system. As I have proved on several threads before several socialist countries (like say Australia) have lower corporate and personal taxation than we do. So socialism = taxes is the mindless repetition of those Americans who seem to have no idea there is a world around them.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You are a tool of the Left. that is all. Liberalism, Socialism, Communism will never win.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  They already have, capitalism is essentially gone, there is not a single true capitalist nation left on earth.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Dream on commie.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Good factual answer
  
  Shows very clearly that there is no response to the facts, the transition is inevitable.
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  Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Go ask a homeless man how nicely Capitalism has treated him (and his family). Maybe you can also ask him how much he owns and then lecture him how the government would be taking away his rights by providing him with a home.
  
  Please say all homeless people are lazy. Please say all homeless people are homeless because of their own faults. Please prove to everyone that you have no brain and say all homeless people are junkies.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Most of the homeless receive a first of the month check. That is how they are able to supply their drinking and drug habit, smart guy.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Statistically speaking the homeless and those below the poverty line have slightly lower alcoholism and drinking rates and only minisculeley higher drug use rates than the average population.
  http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/oct96/niaaa-23.htm
  
  Just more ignorance.
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  squeeknomoreposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Perhaps you could check it out for yourself. Get out in the trenches and you'll see the truth.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  "the statistical truth is that I am wrong so I will refer to unverifiable and uncheckable sources based on my personal significance" Fixed it for you.
  
  Your personal "in the trenches" view is irrelevant to national policy which is based on statistical fact.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yea, ignorance on your part. You love making excuses for people who choose to become welfare creeps and homeless drug addicts.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  The vast majority are not, just as much as the average non poor and homeless person. Welfar eis an entirely capitalist problem.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Welfare is not really a capitalist problem. It is an excuse for the Socialist Left to create more needless programs and blame the Right.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  In socialism it does not exist. Capitalist systems require it because without it people who can't get work and thus cannot even feed themselves and their family create massive crime waves and political extremism.
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  jandeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Tell me! How many homeless people and out of employment people are there in your country ?
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  jandeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  YOU seem to know all about it.
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  teamrnposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  My 2nd try. That homeless man will say that compared to what socialism could have provided, he had the POTENTIAL for doing better under capitalism. Sure, he would have received clothing and shelter, but it would have been at your expense. That's no big deal, because we always want to help the less fortunate, right?
  
  But, what happens when YOU have no more cash to pay for the homeless man's food and shelter? He AND you become homeless together, so now that makes 2 homeless people, so they reapply to the government for 'homeless benefits,; the government obliges and beings to carry twice the debtt it has. Plus,
  
  Under Captailism the system would provide for housing and shelter of the same homeless man, help teach him a skill that he could market and make his way in the world. He's have his pride that would be intact and then BEAM when he finally 'made it.; This would be no temporary fix, where socialism, provides a temporary fix which leads to a permanent life on dependency rolse and a way or thinking that I AM OWED, BECAUSE I CAN'T DO IT FOR MYSEL and while I'm at it, I have a brother who has a wife and daughter and they;re out of a job. Can you help them? Soon it is a DEPENDENCY CLUB.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Socialism isn't capitalism - lite, For a country to run out of resources to feed and cloth its inhabitants it would have to be bereft of all resources.
  YOU don't have to pay for anything FOR anybody else because nobody is homeless and hungry (besides hopefully, the bankers).
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  teamrnposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Eventually, John, when you siphon off enough money from the Bill Gates and Mitt Romneys, they'll have little and the country will have no where to turn to feed the homeless.
  
  But other countries will still want borrowed money paid back, bills paid, etc; so the government will give less, the homeless will get more restless, and eventually the homeless, will get so little, they'll rise up against the very government that fed and clothed them and sheltered them: LIKE GREECE.
  
  Being bereft of resources can easily happen when you have fewer and fewer people working and more and more people dependent on the government, draining it (for lack of better term) of resources.
  
  "YOU don't have to pay for anything FOR anybody else because nobody is homeless and hungry" Eventually you have to pay the piper. Why do you think Margaret Thatcher said, "The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."
  
  Dream on and what utopia did you just emerge from, Pollyanna?
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You're fixated on capitalism!
  Socialism doesn't involve taking money off wealthy people and giving it to poor people, in fact it doesn't involve money at all.
  It doesn't involve the government giving money to the poor and it doesn't involve borrowing money off other nations that needs paying back.
  
  Socialism isn't liberal capitalism.
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  teamrnposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You say all the things that socialism ISN'T. What IS is, then??
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I'm sorry for the C+P job but endless repetition is tedious.
  
  "A socialist economic system would consist of a system of production and distribution organized to directly satisfy economic demands and human needs, so that goods and services would be produced directly for use instead of for private profit driven by the accumulation of capital. Accounting would be based on physical quantities, a common physical magnitude, or a direct measure of labour-time in place of financial calculation. Distribution would be based on the principle to each according to his contribution."
  
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism
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  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Where can I find such a socialist country? I want to trade my ton of cow manure for a ton of gold...
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Tough, you'd find that your ton of cow muck would be worth more than a ton of gold.
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  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I'll take my chances. There's always foreign trade, where richer nations produce or want things beyond basic necessities.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not actually sure what use gold is apart from a none corrosive switch contact and tooth fillings, I mean you can't eat it and you'd have to be pretty sad to sit around admiring it.
  It's only value is in its scarcity, if gold became less sought after as a status symbol its value would disappear.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  She said that for one of two reasons, she either did not understand socialism or she wanted to disguise the reality of socialism from her chattels.
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  squeeknomoreposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  - just because some people went to town with capitalism doesn't mean it is a bad system. We just need to revolutionize regulation!
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  When I look around me I find it hard to agree with your statement that capitalism isn't a bad system.
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  Hollie Thomasposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Far better to let the one homeless man remain homeless, yet continue to fund pointless wars and banker bailouts, because, a homeless man is so much more expensive.
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  teamrnposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  But, no, the homeless man must be cared for and given a chance to stand on his own two feet. Given the tools that you and I had, But when he continuously tosses those tools aside and goes back to living on the stresses, because it's FREE MONEY, there's a certain level of stupidity involved in the government that is being played the fool.
  
  I made it really clear that in capitalism, the desire to care for the homeless is right up there. But when you've taught the homeless to fish and they don't use the skills that they've learned TO GO FISH (rather they take advantage of you) you have a choice to make. He made his choice and now you have your choice.
  
  'Teach a man to fish and he'll eat for a lifetime'-that's what Capitalists believe. Liberals believe that if you GIVE him a fish whenever he wants one, he'll be beholden to you for a lifetime. Indentured servitude. That's not doing the homeless many any favors and it's only making you 'feel good.'
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  The only reason anybody would be homeless under socialism was if they could work but refused to. Socialism isn't about caring for the homeless, it's about there being no homeless and no need for anybody to be homeless.
  
  Capitalists actually believe that if you teach a man to like fish he will buy it off you for a lifetime.
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  Hollie Thomasposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  But, no, the homeless man must be cared for and given a chance to stand on his own two feet. Given the tools that you and I had, But when he continuously tosses those tools aside and goes back to living on the stresses, because it's FREE MONEY, there's a certain level of stupidity involved in the government that is being played the fool.
  
  Do you honestly, honestly, believe that the vast majority of homeless people would find life on the streets more desirable than a job and a home, because, well, they have a bit of FREE money in their pockets? I'm speaking as someone who has worked with many homeless people, people who have committed petty offences in order to receive a prison sentence, because at least then, they might get the opportunity to access those 'tools' to which you refer. There are also homeless people who had access to the same 'tools' as you and I. The difference between me, you and them is circumstances and events. Sometimes their circumstances are of their own making, but frequently this is not the case. It appears that you believe homelessness could never happen to you.
  
  Where does your knowledge regarding the homeless stem from?
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You have to remember that there are two basic options available, one is to blame the system, the other to blame the victim.
  To blame the system would be unthinkable, it would damn everybody who supports that system therefore people have to make a concious decision to forego the comfort of a warm home and prefer instead to sleep under newspapers in freezing weather, after fortifying themselves with alcohol, which of course the righteous will also damn them for.
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  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  To blame the victim seems equally unthinkable; all people are, after all, equally capable of working, equally desirous of working, have equal skills and abilities and have equal needs. Nor is it possible that unusual circumstances put them there (think broken leg here); it has to be the system.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  So you think a system that will make a man who breaks his leg homeless, fair!
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  gmwilliamsposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  The system DOES NOT make anyone homeless. Barring certain circumstances, people are responsible for their own lives and fates. In America and first world nations, many unsuccessful people want to be such. If they did not, they would not be that way. Successful people want to be thus and plan and live their lives accordingly. In other words, people are what they want to be. If one wants to own life, he/she can. Conversely, if one wants to be owed, that is upon him/her. Enough said about the issue at hand. John, either you OWN your life or you are OWNED.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I own my life free from any capitalist or corporate owner.
  
  Can you say the same?
  
  Do you remember your history lessons, about primitive tribes, who would just abandon their injured to fate. Who would put out their girl children to be eaten by wolves?
  
  I like to think we've moved on a little from those times, though you obviously regret it.
  
  How can you insist that people are responsible for their own lives whilst upholding a system that makes somebody else responsible for whether they eat or sleep in comfort or not?
  Where the economic climate has a far greater impact on life than any other climate and yet is further out of the control of most men than any other climate?
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  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Fair? Of course it's "fair". Far more fair than life and nature, where a broken leg means death rather than losing a chunk of wood and sheetrock.
  
  A more reasonable question would be "Is that result desirable" and the obvious answer is "no". Nor does it happen very often - it almost always takes a far, far more serious injury/illness that a broken leg to cause loss of a home.
  
  But you want to discuss "fair"? Anyone that loses their home from being off work for a few weeks while a broken leg heals is living far too close to the line. They bought too much home, they spend everything on cell phones, satellite TV, eating out, movies, etc. instead of saving a little. In other words their greed has enticed them into living a lifestyle they cannot afford; is it now "fair" that their neighbors pick up the cost for their poor choices? To maintain an unsustainable lifestyle that the "victim" wants but cannot afford?
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  It was recently estimated that the majority of people were only one or two pay checks away from homelessness.
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  Hollie Thomasposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  A more reasonable question would be "Is that result desirable" and the obvious answer is "no". Nor does it happen very often - it almost always takes a far, far more serious injury/illness that a broken leg to cause loss of a home.
  
  Actually Wilderness, that is not the case. Nor is it the case that many people find themselves homeless because they have lived beyond their means. I'm not suggesting that there aren't people who have been financially irresponsible, but this is the exception not the rule.
  
  Homelessness occurs when events occur which are outside of an individuals control, eg. breakdown of a relationship, escaping abusive relationships, sharp increase in the cost of living (food, utilities etc.) ill health (particularly those who suffer from mental health problems) loss of employment and/or pay cuts.
  
  Interestingly, but not surprisingly, individuals from lower socio/economic groups are less able to cope when crisis hits. They do not have the disposable income/savings to cushion any shortfall in earnings, nor do they have assets at their disposal to liquidate. They are also far more likely to be tenants than owner/occupiers. In comparison to their middle class counterparts who are far more likely to successfully obtain short term affordable credit to 'tide them over.' The poor, unfortunately, have to turn to payday lenders,and as we already know, this just exacerbates the problem.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  +1
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  jandeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Hollie, as the name of Maggie Thatcher came up in the same subject of the Homeless, well it is a repeat situation of her time as we are now in the middle of not hundreds of homes being repossessed but thousands. Cameron is a fan of Maggies and conned his way in as we know. I hope our writer realises that it is not one person but many,many families which would result in children going into care(I remember that one) Dogs abandoned in their thousands. So multiply that -size of US-It already has TENT cities!! If she thinks the examples she gave of the two wealthy blokes will ever be without ! Well ! She is in cloud cuckoo land and must be in love with drones and war .
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  jandeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  What you mean is that then we all go into the bakers and collect our bread then off to the shop for our milk and other groceries of the day-all free of course.
  We have hair that is not grey as we no longer worry about our mortgage as such things are history,all our children are healthy and extremely well educated as health care and education as well as houses and food are the rights of all.
  Sounds good to me.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Jandee hates work.
  Jandee is lazy\
  
  Jandee hates merit
  Jandee wants everything given to him/her
  
  Jandee hates U.S.
  Jandee is still upset that Communist U.S.S.R fell
  
  Long live America. Long live capitalism. Death to Communism. Death to Socialism.
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  jandeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Sounds like you mean death to me as well? Just shows what a loving being you are. Why are you so terrified of Rule by the majority ?
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  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe because a simple rule by majority, without major safeguards, will always result in the majority overrunning the wishes and rights of the minority. And the biggest single problem here is demanding that the minority give up the goods, materials and money they've earned in order to support the minority.
  
  Given a chance, people will always vote themselves "free" money at the expense of others; it is seen in a big way in the US as that Rule by the majority runs roughshod over the rights of the minority in this manner.
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  jandeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yes but you are meaning under capitalism whereas I am meaning Socialism.
  You have only experienced how people react to their conditions under Capitalism i.e greed and self without being socialised into empathy as is the case in a Socialist country,an equal society.
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  jandeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Josac, I read and understood that you ended the sentence with -as long as -harming no other- so what is marquis on about ?
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  jandeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Re. above comment should read "as long as it is not harming others"sorry about mistake in earlier comment
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  jandeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  They would probably be put out of their misery by a b.......t, hopefully.
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  teamrnposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  What? Do you really THINK that capitalism is like that?
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  jandeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  What are you on about !!
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  jandeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  ?
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Marquisposted 11 years ago
The problem with the clueless Left is they do not deal with individuals. They like to create systems dedicated to erasing the problems not seeing that people choose to do wrong.

I think the Left has no concept of right or wrong. They do understand how to waste money on needless programs though.
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ahorsebackposted 11 years ago
When will the world finally admit that each and every socialist state lies in failure mode ! The republic of the United States , in all of its stregnths of capitalism is a success . It was from the beginning ! Our economy is as much as 30 % of the worlds economic success . Not bad I'd say ! Let something fall apart anywhere in the world and the U.N.[on American soil ] requests or even demends our involvement ! Viet Nam , a failure ? According to the veterans I know , the only thing they wern't allowed to do was succeed before they came home ! Politics ! So, say " thank you America "for saving london from Hitler , Paris , Rome, So thank you America for saving the Phillipines , Burma , Africa....While were at it maybe you might thank the vast , silent majority of tax paying Americans for subsidising the breadbasket of the world , To make it so that a bowl of rice and corn , grain and education costs pennies to third world nations who won't or can't feed thier own ! Yes socialistic countries love to hate America and Americans , but don't worry , we won't hold that against you the next time you ask for help from the big guy on the block !
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Vietnam was a failure, we lost, Philippines we colonized and they fought a war of independence against us. WWI and WWII we only joined because there was a threat to the US not to help anyone, what is so complicated about this.
  Also the vast majority of "socialist" economies either already have higher wealth per capita than us (like Norway) or are growing much faster than us so the failure mode is grossly and hilariously inaccurate.
  The US is a mixed system anyway.
  Additionally we are nowhere near the worlds food basket nor do we subsidize it, South America is (Sugar, rice, potatoes, soy, beef) followed by South East Asia (Rice, Coconut etc.)
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  ahorsebackposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  South America ? , Southeast asia ? Big difference in lifestyles and quality of life . Please site a real equal to our nations contributions , and use real facts !
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  South America and South East Asia are the breadbaskets of the world that is what I was referring to with those.
  
  If you want to talk about quality of life the US is surpassed by dozens of socialist and social democratic nations.
  
  http://nationranking.files.wordpress.co … 1-qli2.png
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  Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  But America's #1 at obesity~!
  
  WE'RE NUMBER ONE!! WE'RE NUMBER ONE!! WE'RE NUMBER ONE!!
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  What does that have to do with the failing system of Socialism? Keep to the topic at hand loser.
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  Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  It's the only thing America is #1 in, of course!
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You mean you want Americans to be skinny little bony malnourished airheads like Europeans?
  
  lmao
  
  More than half of adults in Europe are overweight or obese, according to a new report issued by the Paris-based Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development.
  
  Over the past two decades, obesity rates have more than doubled in most of the member states of the 27-member European Union, according to the Journal of the American Medical Association report. It also indicates that one in seven European children is overweight or obese, and that the problem is set to rise even further.
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  jandeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  What it is saying is ---European--Womans waistline 28 inches last month
  overweight this month ,Womans waistline 29!/"inches this month.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Surpassed by dozens of of nations who make their own polls and fabricate the end results. Sorry, we do not believe the bile that a bunch of Democratic Socialist or Social Democrat nations have happier people. They are only happy because they are welfare bums, hate working for anything and are narcarcistic nihilists.
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  Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Got any sources of your own to compare those statistics with, or are you just sippin' the Kool-Aid?
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162- … 91704.html
  
  Also, the British, generally considered the most overweight people in Europe, are considerably smaller than Americans. According to this BBC article, "on average, British men weigh 79.75 kilos (175 pounds) and women 66.7 kilos (147 pounds)."
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  "the facts prove me wrong so i am going to claim it's a conspiracy" fixed it for you. so sad
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Conspiracy theories are not facts. Provide facts or shut up with posting your lame nonsense.
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  teamrnposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Josak:
  
  "Also the vast majority of "socialist" economies either already have higher wealth per capita than us (like Norway) or are growing much faster than us so the failure mode is grossly and hilariously inaccurate. "
  
  I believe 'ahorseback' wasn't speaking ABOUT AS WE SPEAK, THE PRESENT, but they are on collision course for eventual downfall, but riding hight now.
  
  The NHS of Canada is just one example; "YES, YOU CAN HAVE THAT MRI because seizures from epilepsy have gotten out of control, but not until we find a machine that will be free to 'do it' in about 6 months! "
  
  So, yes, they HAVE the items, but when you can use them, is open for discussion. Why do you think Canadians come here in masses for health care? One example.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Oh so this is based on your prophesies of impending doom sometime in the future? Need I remind you that Canada has a better life expectancy than us and according to the UN provides much better care for the average Canadian, however if you are wealthy it will be faster to pop across the border to do in in the US.
  
  We do not get much medical tourism though, we are a huge country with two big land borders and no sanctions yet we get about 60 000 medical tourists per year, Cuba on the other hand (as an example) is tiny, is an Island and it's difficult for Americans to get there and they get 20 000 a year. Which if you adjust it for population means they are getting dozens of times the medical tourists.
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  Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Help me here on the second big land border.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Land border with Canada, land border with Mexico.
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  Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you. Wow you do ramble a bit. Ok now I am getting your tilt. "we are a no good lousy country that you just love to death" I definitely had dogs and girlfriends like that. But sooner rather than later I left em.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I do ramble no doubt
  
  I don't think America is lousy, I think it's great, like most people however I think it could be better with some different decisions being made.
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  Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Right on brother. When my brothers, sisters and country are screwing up, I gotta step up. Even if it hurts. Only dumb dogs sleep in the road.
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jandeeposted 11 years ago
Hello Horseback.

Well that's the whole world covered in a few lines of scribble. Thanks for your considered opinion Horseback.
I suggest that Obama quits and you very swiftly take over as you know the deal,in fact I think your writing gives an indication of your genious
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Your jealousy is showing.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Obama should quit. He was way over his head to begin. Biden would be far worse than Obama though. Biden is a Leftist loose-canon.
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ahorsebackposted 11 years ago
Well now that hurts so much when you attack me for being patriotic , Obama should actually step aside and let Anyone run the show better than he has ! Personally I'm more of an isolationist , let the world dig itself out of thier own socialistic quagmires ! Jandee , I'm not as formally educated as many [you]are yet , I own the rights to more common sense than the average American self loather does. And way more than American bashers from outside of Americas borders !
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I wasn't aware you could copyright and own the rights to common sense
  
  Your comments are just factually inaccurate.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You do not have common sense to speak of. Your thinking and personal habits are inaccurate.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You don't even know the first thing about my personal habits
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  jandeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Careful Josak ! He has you on google,maybe he's got us all on google !! Knows just what we are doing..
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Jandee, you know you suck, right?
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  squeeknomoreposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Be careful, Marquis, I know someone who got kicked off for three days in responding to all this. We need you here... but don't kill yourself over it!
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  jandeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Don't worry about it ! I can well take a little rubbish from a little rubbish, never shopped anyone in my life so won't start now.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I have seen how you think and it is very perverted. That is why you support sodomy, same-sex marriages and other sick thinks the Left supports.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yup those are all great
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  test
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  There is a world of difference between "supporting" and "not opposing" though I doubt you will get it.
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  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Needs to read and understand a little from Voltaire, doesn't he?
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I think reading and understanding would be a good start
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Don't we all, he is still beyond even our time.
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  jandeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You need a little help my friend............
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  Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Really you never heard of Ben Franklin?
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry I don't understand your comment. (Probably me being thick) could you clarify?
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  Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  The copyrighting of common sense.
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  jandeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Horesback I do understand what you are saying but you don't seem able to get what we are saying. We are not "bashing" any one of the majority of good people in US. After all we ,every country, has it's own culture which is why people love to travel. The THING that we are bashing is the very mistaken belief that this thing called capitalism, which is really Imperialism----Wanting and taking from others as is acted out by Israel with your country as it's lackey -remember Israel has more nuclear power than anyone else.
  
  As far as Obama goes I don't really see that he has any power whatsoever !
  He is the figurehead and one is as good as another in that they are PLACED there by the RULERS and my friend,if you really knew how FEW of these RULERS there really are, you would be astonished !!
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You really do not know what capitalism is. Second, you really do not know what imperialism is either. If you did, you would know that imperialism existed way before America ever existed. You also have the very things that you take for granted thanks to capitalism, not your worthless spread the misery system.
  
  What rulers are you referring to? If you can give no proof of names, well then you should let it go and stick to facts instead.
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  jandeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Horseback,you are misrepresenting me, I did not say Obama was not able I merely pointed out that in my opinion YOU would be more able as President
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  teamrnposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  ahorseback, KUDOS FOR SPEAKING YOUR MIND. However, in my mind, President Obama was in over his head from the get-go. Yes, he was a community organizer, but doesn't know what makes up government or a community.
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ahorsebackposted 11 years ago
By the way , we once kicked the political tyranists who like so much to run other peoples financial and political affairs , and hold a thumb over our freedoms out of America . Its just time to do it again that's all ! And we will !
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ahorsebackposted 11 years ago
Just who says, Josak ? Which facts are inaccurate ?
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ahorsebackposted 11 years ago
That is one of the greatest tools of leftists , Accuracy in statistics , you tend to bend statistics and polls to your own needs in any debate . Remember there is only one truth !
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copyrightenforceposted 11 years ago
I Agree With - Marquis
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ahorsebackposted 11 years ago
As to the opine that I don't understand what I speak of : my facts are "inaccurate ", there you go again , making up the rules ! I make no appologies for capitalism it is only what we allow it to be ! Imperialisms? Not here , not ever ! Liberals always throw labels at any chance they can ! Thats why you won't see using facts or statistics , they can be and are, adjusted especially by liberals to justify thier arguments . It just burns me that those who complain the most about our great nation do so with such venomous and unjust , immature hatred ! I and many will never appologize for being American . Our system works , our political system too ! And most every American that I know at least ,works as well . Americans aren't known much for sitting around complaining about the world , we act !
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  jandeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Horseback maybe you live in the deep country and never converse with the younger generation ! Nothing wrong with that but maybe an explanation...
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ahorsebackposted 11 years ago
Oh and flag me if you will , as thats how most of the like minded liberals win an argument , they merely shut or shout down the voices of moral righteousness .
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  Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You do realize there's a handy "reply" button below each person's post, so we can see who you're referring to, right? Good Lord, that's like the first thing you're supposed to pick up on in any message board.
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Wayne Brownposted 11 years ago
Senator Joe McCarthy made it quite clear what was going very wrong with America back in the late 40's and early 50's. He called out the commies that infested high government places...put there by our own intelligence arms in the aftermath of WWII. For his efforts, he was labeled a kook, a drunk, and just about everything else in the book. His points were valid so he had to be discredited and dishonored in order that his perspective could be undermined. Many years later, it is clear that he was right and our country has been overrun the actions and directions of this never-ending cancer which we brought upon ourselves. We are now raising generations who are never taught the pitfalls of socialism or communism but actually are urged to learn of it and appreciate it as an "alternative culture" the evil capitalist life of greed and theft which our educational system seems to distain. Prehaps it has much to do with all the socialist and communist who are in high educational places teaching our young impressionable minds that Utopia does actually exist but we cannot get there until we destroy the country that we currently live in that has nurtured generation upon generation of people who have lived and enjoyed freedom, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Today, our children are being taught that these concepts have little value in light of the potential security that a big and all-knowing government can supply. This is what is wrong with America today. ~WB
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  The filthy members of the New Left counterculture are responsible.
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  squeeknomoreposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I concur.
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thecatgalleryposted 11 years ago
America is no longer the country it was theoretically established to be--"the land of the free, the home of the brave where the government is run by "we the people" with preservation of human rights." This country is run by money--big corporations that have the money to buy and rig elections and sneak through dangerous products for consumers for the profits they make (from oil companies to pharmaceutical companies). Money buys politicians who vote on laws to bring in more money to the corporations. The Government is not run by the people. The people's voice is ignored by those on the right (who are in the wrong), to a large extent because all their information comes from sources like Fox. These people should change their station and listen to the truth, not the Fox distortions (another entity bought by money to promote the big money makers). That "preservation of human rights" is a widely distorted phrase. I used to love this country until I had the opportunity to live and work in Europe. Now I wish I had never left Europe to come back to this mess. The Republicans and their far-right Tea Party have really destroyed the country. They have to have their (big money-supported objectives) way or else, no compromising. Their idea of saving the country is to take away Social Security and Medicare. What a sick "preservation of human rights". And I haven't even gone into the love of this country for wars. Again, the big-money war machine gets rich from the wars. America was such a nice place to grow up in decades ago, but it's a different country now.
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  teamrnposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  "America is no longer the country it was theoretically established to be-" So since America is no longer the country which it started out to be, are you just planning to roll over and play dead and let someone trample all over your rights?
  
  Don''t you have a desire AT ALL to have America back tto be what or what America was theorized to be? Or since you don't think the idea, the trial worked, do you want to bend the Constitution around to fit your progressive agenda? If that's the case, go somewhere else and bend THEIR Constitution. Leave mine alone.
  
  But, if you feel like getting in there and rolling up you shirt sleeves, putting in an honest day's work to make America great agin (I think we all admit America is on a cusp and can go either direction), by all means, please stay and help America be better than it ever was before.
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Education Answerposted 11 years ago
Americans haven't unfriended America; America has unfriended Americans. Since when does a friend listen in to your conversations, spy on you, look at your emails, and make a kill list with your name on it? Does this sound like America? Thirty years ago, we'd be calling this science fiction, perhaps 1984. We might even claim it's the Soviet way. Now it's the American way. That's why Americans are concerned. Our country has turned its sights towards its own citizens.

It's sad. I love my country, but my country feels that it must invade my privacy and keep a close eye on me. Something is inherently wrong with that mentality. "Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose."
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  teamrnposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Education, I've been following your statements for a long time. This one hit home for me and the brining in of Janis Joplin was so apropos, but the words are priceless and couldn't fit better, FREEDOM'S JUST ANOTHER WORD FOR NOTHING LEFT TO LOSE..."
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  teamrnposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Education, I've been following your statements for a long time. This one hit home for me and the brining in of Janis Joplin was so apropos, but the words are priceless and couldn't fit better, FREEDOM'S JUST ANOTHER WORD FOR NOTHING LEFT TO LOSE..."
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  Education Answerposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  teamrn,
  
  Thank you. I get passionate about our country, and I really thought the quote would fit well.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  So what you are saying is that freedom is not a desirable position!
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  Education Answerposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Nope. Freedom is the most desirable position.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  But nothing to do is anathema to capitalists!
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ahorsebackposted 11 years ago
Perhaps apathy in America will be replaced by the need to complain about government and then do something about it ! I suspect more people complain than become active in the voting booth ! We really just waste our energy here perhaps !
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  teamrnposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Ahorseback, Of we think that hard enough, it becomes the self-fulfilling prophecy, that WE ARE WASTING OUR TIME, HERE.
  
  We may differ on some issues, but agree on others that we MUST GET AMERICA BACK TO AMERICANS. We need your enthusiasm and energy to accomplish one of the biggest tasks this country has faced.
  
  What's the name of the song, "don't give up on us..."
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John Holdenposted 11 years ago
"This talk is falling on John's deaf ears. Talking to him is futile."

No, not deaf ears, and talking to me is not futile, unlike telling me, which is, and telling me myths in the expectation that I will believe them is even more futile.
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ahorsebackposted 11 years ago
John um......HUHH ?
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John Holdenposted 11 years ago
"And the biggest single problem here is demanding that the minority give up the goods, materials and money they've earned in order to support the minority."

Surely you meant the majority giving up their goods to support the minority!
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  squeeknomoreposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Your mistake, John, is in believing that because Some powerful corporations have not been playing by the rules and got in bed with Some politicians... The whole system of economic freedom should be shut down. This is where your beliefs are s e r i o u s l y flawed.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  If you truly believe you have economic freedom then it is not my beliefs that are flawed.
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  squeeknomoreposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  The potential has always been and has allowed the corporations to become the power sources that they are. What is your solution to all this?
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  squeeknomoreposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  What the US needs is a president who will take the time, attention, focus and effort to REVOLUTIONIZE REGULATION. And if he won't we need to petition him to do so. We need to stop back room deals, bonuses, and bailouts. It is a flaw in the system which must be dealt with in modern times in the spirit of the Constitution, brought to modern terms.
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  Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Large, sweeping social changes like revolutionizing regulation have only occurred during times of peace, as trying to do anything like that during wartime would require a division of attention.
  
  Before we can do anything of the sort, we have to stop playing our little game of World Police with other countries' wars and devote our military force to defending our own shores with smaller, more passive outposts only in those places where it's absolutely essential. Then we wouldn't need the outlandishly ridiculous military budget we have now, and could devote some of that cash to improving the lives of our own citizens.
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  squeeknomoreposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yet, we have to do a certain amount of policing as that has always been in our best self interest. Keep it to the intent which it has always been: to defend our allies against injustice/ tyranny.
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  jandeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Correct.
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squeeknomoreposted 11 years ago
But, this president won't act on on behalf of the people against the over powerful corporations... which is proof he is bed with the NWO. Lets see if I get kicked off again.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  No, it's proof that the corporations are more powerful than the President.
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  squeeknomoreposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  The President can do something about this. Not abide by it.
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  squeeknomoreposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  The power of this nation is the multitude of people on the same page. If the president wanted to do something proactive, not only for the people of this country, but all the other democratic nations in the world, i.e our allies, maybe the fight (against the progression of the NWO,) could be won.
  F i g h t to win freedom for the individual and the power of self sufficiency.
  G i v e u p to socialism.
  Isolation of the difficulty: Good for what ?
  Economic Freedom: Allowing freedom for the good of the individual.
  Socialism: Sacrificing Individual freedom for the good of the whole.
  Which do you prefer???
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Has it never crossed your mind that the USA is at the heart of the NWO?
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  squeeknomoreposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  of course, part of the NWO, against the wishes of the people. I would say the majority are clueless.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Of course this is not true.
  Please name an individual freedom you would lose under a socialist system.
  
  Additionally you should define things without bias.
  
  If you describe Socialist as "Sacrificing Individual freedom for the good of the whole."
  Then you should define Economic Freedom as "Sacrificing the good of the whole for individual freedom"
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  squeeknomoreposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  - the right to keep the money you earn . If you leave t he money in the hands of the individual, he is much more frugal, and appropriates the money much more wisely. Believe it or not, there is an extreme amount of waste in all government programs. They never stick to a budget and if the private citizen tried to get away with the things that the federal government does he would soon find himself in jail. It is only a concept of sustainability and that is why the constitution planed to reserve the actions of the federal government to only two things: the protection of the country and the regulation of inter state commerce,all other actions are reserved for the states.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You mean freedom from taxation that we already have now?
  
  You do realize several socialist states have lower taxes than the USA and a complete socialist system requires no taxes at all?
  
  So no, factually wrong, try again.
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  squeeknomoreposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Individuals have always been more prone to frugality than any overly bloated government beuracracy. this is due to fiscal laws and the necessary need to sustain our attempts of surviving. Believe it or not there is an extreme amount of waste in every big government program. If the common citizen were to try and get away with what these programs succeed at ,he would find himself in jail. It really is only a question of sustainability. This is the reason that the constitution reserved the actions of the federal government to only the protection of the country and to the regulation of interstate commerce. All other actions of the government are reserved to the states.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  So that's a no on providing an individual liberty/freedom lost? Ok then
  
  IF you want to compare democratic small government nations against democratic large government nations in terms of economic growth, quality of life, happiness index I am happy to do so but you won't like the results.
  The proof is in the pudding as they say.
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  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Who defines quality of life and happiness index? You, or the person that has different wants?
  
  I got into this one before, and the definitions given of each were most definitely slanted heavily towards socialism, not consumerism. Let me make the definitions, using what I value, and you will find very different results.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Go on then, do it.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  They are international measures based on health, prospects of a comfortable life etc. they are based on research done around the world asking people what was important in national terms for them to be happy, it's supposed to represent the views of the majority, obviously some individuals place importance on different things but it's an index for the general population.
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  squeeknomoreposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  - security is not as important as liberty. "He who values security over liberty deserves neither security or liberty."
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I did not see security in there anywhere, the happiness index covers "democracy and freedom" as one of it's categories that is based on how people feel about how free and represented they are in their country.
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  squeeknomoreposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe the socialist countries you are referring to, Mr Josak, are not funding school lunches, etc.
  
  Here in US, Illegal government executive agencies are passing laws without the yea or nay of Congress. Our government has become too big. That is why we are broke... yet they keep wanting to do what they are not authorized to do under the Constitution.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  School lunches and programs of the sort are very very common, i suspect they probably are, one significant difference is less "defense" spending and more actual defense spending, which is cheaper than creating and maintaining an offensive army.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  test
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You should take your own medicine.
  
  You have done NOTHING but use Socialist bias in every post.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Whereas, of course, there isn't a shred of bias in any of your posts!
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  Education Answerposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Wouldn't we lose the right to not use government healthcare under a socialized system?
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  No, you'd be perfectly free to go into the woods and treat yourself with nuts and berries.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Nope, most systems have socialized care and the option of private care for those who wish to/can afford to buy it.
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  squeeknomoreposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  - what if most opted out? no socialism. Socialism is not a voluntary setup. (And the health care program would be unsustainable, otherwise.)
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  And capitalism is!
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  Education Answerposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  What's the penalty? With Obamacare, isn't there a penalty for opting out?
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  No penalty in the UK, though you really have to continue to pay into the NHS even if you don't use it directly, which is fair enough as in the UK private medicine provides no basic training and uses a lot of NHS paid staff and resources.
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  squeeknomoreposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  wow, good answer, Eduction Question!
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Already answered, people do not have to take socialized healthcare.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Bullsh+t -
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ahorsebackposted 11 years ago
Corporate America pays for the trillion dollar campaigns that put these guys in office to start with , whos gonna bite the hand that feeds them ? Obama sure as heck won't , I think the whole presidential campaign is a smoke and mirrors game to deflect the attention away from senate and congressional pilfering and profitizing . We need Term limits bad , we need perhaps a two party presidential team , and we need for American voters to get off thier kiesters and vote a whole lot of scum out of office .
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  squeeknomoreposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Right. Step one:
  Vote out the career politicians.
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  squeeknomoreposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Step two: get the real picture and spread the real picture.
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  Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Sounds like a good start. I'll continue:
  
  Step two: Mandatory surprise IQ tests for all political applicants. No one with an IQ less than 140 should be allowed to hold any position.
  
  EDIT: I like my step two better.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  A lot of career politician Democrats would be out of office.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Most politicians would be out of office full stop.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Most politicians would be.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Did you know that I ran for mayor of Detroit once?
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  squeeknomoreposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Too bad you were not elected, Marquis.
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  Marquisposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yea, I received only 3 votes.
  
  Even my mother didn't vote for me. She said she knew "how I was."
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  squeeknomoreposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Things will change as we become more enlightened. Founding Fathers were ahead of their time.
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  squeeknomoreposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  we all need to understand the Constitution and how it is designed to protect us!
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  teamrnposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  "we need for American voters to get off thier kiesters and vote a whole lot of scum out of office ." I couldn't agree with you more. But that begs the question, HOW?
  
  HOW do we get them off of their keisters when sooooo many of them deny the sheer existence of a problem, or are sooooo busy with their lives they don't have time to deal with the problems that this country fact?
  
  HOW do we convince them that they have to MAKE time or the country that they and their children love, will not be there-or will be there in a FAR DIFFERENT form from what they think?
  
  We have to rid a lot of this country of it's laissez-faire/'I could care less' attitude. Let's put our collective heads on. HOW do we do it without using scare tactics?
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copyrightenforceposted 11 years ago
ceg tek - Interesting Article
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