President Trump promised to shut down the government if no wall

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   jackclee lmposted 7 years ago

   Do you agree or disagree?
   The American people support the wall yet Congress, especially Democrats are against it.
   The democrats on the other hand has threaten to shut down the government if funding for Planned Parenthood is taken away...

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      GA Andersonposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Hi jackclee, Since you asked, I disagree. I do not support a physical barrier wall, so of course I cannot support a government shutdown over an argument to finance it.
      
      Now, if the "Wall" was viewed symbolically, as in some way to control our borders, then I would have a different answer.
      
      Now, let me ask you a question. Are you a proponent of a physical barrier wall - brick, mortar, concrete, and steel,  or is your vision of the wall any action that will stop illegal immigration? Does your vision of a wall also include Wilderness' "barbed wire with electronic intrusion alarms and immediate border agent response capabilities?
      
      GA

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         Ken Burgessposted 7 years agoin reply to this

         Personally I think we should build a wall that makes the Great Wall of China look trivial in comparison, complete with a full Division being stationed there, watch-towers, gun turrets, at least a quarter mile barrier of mines in front of it, drone flyovers, etc.
         
         I mean seriously, if you are going to put up a wall to keep out the millions of poor, and the drug cartels, do the job right, don't waste billions on something that doesn't even work.
         
         Nahhh... just kidding, see, the way I see it, since everyone is moving into North America from Central and South America, my plan is to move to South America, where I know food and housing is a lot cheaper, people are a lot more laid back, and I can just go disappear to some small no-where's villa in Chile or perhaps Peru and live the remainder of my life in peace.
         
         Most Americans wouldn't even know where to find those countries on a map, so its a great place to escape from the constant idiocy.

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            GA Andersonposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            I might have considered that relocation plan of yours too, Ken. But I heard the mosquitoes there are big enough to stand flat-footed and drink out of a 5-gal. can - and I don't like mosquitoes. So I guess I will have to make-do where I am. At least I know Home Depot has sturdy extension ladders if I need one.
            
            GA

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               Castlepalomaposted 7 years agoin reply to this

               There  are plenty of places in Bolvia that have very little or no mosquitoes and low cost living.

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                  GA Andersonposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  Hmm... Travel guides and health ministries would probably appreciate you sharing your information with them. Because other than the higher altitudes of the Andes, it seems that between the Zika virus, Malaria,  Yellow and Dengue Fevers, all are warning that bug bites, (mosquitoes),  are a major cause of serious illnesses in Bolivia.
                  
                  GA

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                     Castlepalomaposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                     Bolivia has the wettest and driest places on earth . Anything 9000 feet high has very few or none mosquitos. The place where I am living it is eternal spring. Rarly ever freezes or gose over 90 degrees.
                     
                     Andes is the Largest and tallest mountain range in the world. Many areas to never see a mosquitoes.
                     
                     If I ever go to hell,  it will a be by a swam of mosquitoes around my head and giving birth to an accountant.

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         jackclee lmposted 7 years agoin reply to this

         I am glad you asked. The "wall" is always been a generic term to represent many things. The concept is simple, secure our borders. Which means it can be many things depending on the terrain. In some places along the border, a physical wall is called for. In some places, natural barriers can be reinforced with surveilance and electronic sensors. It also extends to people who come here on travel visa and over stay or come and have babies...so they can gain citizenship for their child...the wall also means cracking down on sactuary cities and to deport criminals in our prisons...cracking down on containers, and private aircraft that transport illegal drugs...
         The answer is do whatever is necessary including use of drones to survey...
         People who claim walls don't work are naive. They fail to see how it has worked in many other countries like Israel and Saudia Arabia...
         They also fail to understand human nature. Humans react to things and they will change their behavior based on these type of policy shifts. It they know for sure we are serious about controling our borders, they will pursue other means including going the legal route. It you make it much harder for someone to come here illegally, they will try doing it legally, if they can. That is the ultimate goal. We are not racist because we want to secure our borders. We want people to come here legally following our laws.
         In the long run, it is best for all. Both for our country and for the illegals.

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            GA Andersonposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            I think you are wrong about what Pres. Trump sees as "The Wall." I do not think it was ever promoted as a "generic" term for many other things.
            
            But that is just my opinion. My perception is that he is talking about a physical constructed barrier. His comments have included references to construction costs, and physical height. I also think that is the perception of most "Wall supporters
            
            I agree with your points regarding what "The Wall" might symbolize to some, but I don't think those are what Pres. Trump is speaking of.
            
            GA

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      Live to Learnposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      What we have here are a bunch of people too big for their pants who will make the rest of us suffer because they will throw a tantrum if they can't have their own way.

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         jackclee lmposted 7 years agoin reply to this

         Do you mean like President Obama did? He did shut down our government over budget debate when he didn't get his way...or did you forget that?
         It is funny how people have selective outrage...or memory...

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            jackclee lmposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            Here is link to the story in case you forgot -
            https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_ … wn_of_2013

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            Live to Learnposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            My memory is not selective. I just find it odd that we forget that both sides are failing us by threatening and/or using these tactics. It isn't right, no matter which side of the aisle you are on.

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               jackclee lmposted 7 years agoin reply to this

               I agree with that statement.

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                  IslandBitesposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  So, do you agree with Trump?

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                     jackclee lmposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                     On some issues yes and some issues no.
                     I am a conservative and Trump is not a conservative.

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                        IslandBitesposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                        The question was about this particular issue:
                        
                        "President Trump promised to shut down the government if no wall'

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               wildernessposted 7 years agoin reply to this

               And quite disappointing that the "man in the street" is following along with the same pathetic tactics.

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                  Live to Learnposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  That too.

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      Ken Burgessposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Pretty good sum up of why its such a problem:
      
      http://www.wannalol.com/p/763380

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      Misfit Chickposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Nope - this is again, just a beLIEf you have been fed by whatever media you insist isn't fake, LoL! Americans DO support border security (oh yes we do!!!); but many Americans don't support a wall (it isn't just Dems). For example, GOP Congressman Hurd - a former US Spy Master - says this:
      
      "Gorder security is important, but building a concrete structure from sea to shining sea is the most expensive and least effective way to do border security. It is 2017, we have sensor technology that can determine the difference between a bunny rabbit and a person. We can deploy a drone to determine what the threat is and confirm there's a threat. Then track the threat until you can deploy your most important resource: your human capital, the men and women in Border Patrol, to deal with that threat. And all of that can be done, 75% of that process I just described can be done with computer vision, machine learning and artificial intelligence and for a fraction of the cost of building a 30-foot high wall."
      
      Also, whatever happened to MEXICO paying for the wall? Wasn't that the original campaign promise? Trump has a LOT of nerve blackmailing this country over this issue - and his supporters need to stop excusing his sh*tty behavior.
      
      Planned Parenthood exists for health reasons beyond just providing abortions - which is all people like you see. And we have good reasons for threatening to protest defunding of that organization.

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         Tim Truzy info4uposted 7 years agoin reply to this

         Agreed. Until you have worked in cities with people trying to survive, you don't know much about Planned Parenthood. It's great to see a discussion on economics on this forum, but if you starve people or don't let them use their own innovations to survive - has anyone heard of Marx? That's the result. I say again: "Let them eat cake." We who are ignorant have seen this story before.

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   Castlepalomaposted 7 years ago

   Also the NAFTA deal with Canada is going sour. Worst North America realationship I've ever seen & where US must have the best realationship between Mexico/Canada. Trump has not even figured out a wall design that stops 32' latters, planes and ilIegal Alien flying over Arizona part.
   
   Gomez
   I compare Trumps behaviour and Trump administration to a "banana republic."  It's all very alarming and everybody is all on their toes. You realize that you're dealing with an unstable person, somebody that really doesn't know what they're talking about," Gomez said.
   
   "Among the three countries, the U.S. is the one with the most to lose," he said.
   
   Add this to all the wars to come, America may shut down and may reconsider a Federal Government players in it. It's probably Trump real concern is the Bluff of the deal.

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      jackclee lmposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      A banana republic? That made me laugh... what's next...?with TDS.

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   Will Apseposted 7 years ago

   Shut down the government? Lol. The US has no government.

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      jackclee lmposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      You are absolutely right with regard to our Congress. They should all be sent packing...
      Keep the national parks open and the national defenses... but all other agencies can take a break and we will see what is really needed and what is fat and bureaucracy...

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         crankaliciousposted 7 years agoin reply to this

         They should all be sent packing? Except that people keep voting for them and this is a democracy. What exactly do you mean? How about getting big money out of politics? How about limiting the amount of money a candidate can spend on an election? How about eliminating PACs and SUPERPACs? By and large, the people who are in office and there because they've been able to generate the most money to finance their campaigns, not because they have the best ideas.

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   crankaliciousposted 7 years ago

   So I was driving through California recently. I didn't feel like it was very hard to figure out where illegals worked. You could see hundreds and thousands of Mexicans picking fruit everywhere (I'm sure some where legally here and others were not). Why aren't enforcement agents constantly raiding these places? You know why? Because they have a tacit arrangement with the businesses. If those people didn't pick the fruit, you know how high the prices for strawberries would be? How about the price for a hotel room? Food? Have you ever seen somebody who cleans hotel rooms or works in a restaurant kitchen who wasn't African-American or Latino? I probably have, but it's rare.
   
   I'm trying not to point this out as a matter of racism - I certainly know how hard those jobs are and I wouldn't want to do them - just as observation. The number of immigrants in those jobs, legal and illegal, is astonishing.
   
   What I'm saying is that there's a price to be paid for eliminating that cheap labor.
   
   I'd support a stop on ALL immigration to this country. Just stop it all so there's no question about the prejudice of it. Nobody who's not already a legal resident of this country simply can't come here.
   
   The other part to this is enforcing the employment of illegal immigrants. Businesses who employ illegal immigrants must be fined or put out of business. Consistent raids of every hotel chain, restaurant, and farm will basically eliminate the problem. It will also send the cost of travel, hotels, easting out, and fruit, sky high.

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      wildernessposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Once spoke to a farmer who was open about hiring illegals.  If he did not, he complained, he would be out of business.  Not earn less for his family; completely out of business.  I believed him; the practice is so wide spread that he could not compete paying normal, legal wages.
      
      The whole thing is, in a way, the same problem we see with farming out our manufacturing or other business/labor, even though the labor is inside our borders.  Like or not, we're going to pay the price for that greed and shortsightedness.  Whether in higher taxes to cover the costs of foreign labor or in higher prices for goods produced with American labor.

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         crankaliciousposted 7 years agoin reply to this

         Two interesting comments, Wilderness (from you and me). A real discussion to be had. Peanut gallery? Crickets. I think message board participants mostly want to feel self-righteous and yell at one another.

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            wildernessposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            Well, I hadn't equated the two (illegal aliens and offshore manufacturing) but they seem similar when I think about it.  Either way we are grasping for low cost labor, giving our jobs to other countries.  The illegals repay a minor portion in sales taxes and such, but the costs of having those illegals is far more than they return even when their production is added to their taxes.

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               crankaliciousposted 7 years agoin reply to this

               Throughout American history, "illegals" have always done the worst kind of work and it's usually the work that many people do not want to do. It's not only a question of what they return, it's a question of whether that work would get done at all. But, perhaps, the market would demand that those who get that work be paid higher wages, which would then result in all of those areas increasing prices to the consumer. Certainly there must be a way to allow for legal immigration of unskilled labor to meet demands.

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                  wildernessposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  First, take away the food stamps and then see how many will work for their food.  At whatever job they can land.
                  
                  Second, I would expect prices to rise.  We're living off the low cost of other countries now, and it cannot continue indefinitely.
                  
                  Finally, I think we have plenty of unskilled labor in the country already.  The problem isn't not enough people, it's motivation.

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               Will Apseposted 7 years agoin reply to this

               You got it. That is supply-side economics.
               
               Great for investors, not so good for everyone else.

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                  wildernessposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  Don't know that investors actually profit, either - when everyone does it (and they do) the result is that prices drop and swallow up that low cost labor.  The beneficiary has been the consumer, but the bill is coming due, and coming fast.

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                     Will Apseposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                     In the longer term, even investors will suffer, I reckon. But for the last thirty years, supply-side economics has been a feeding frenzy for anyone with a decent amount of capital to invest in emerging markets.
                     
                     Interestingly, the Chinese have been driving up wages at ten percent a year for over a decade. They want Chinese workers to buy more goods and reduce the country's dependence on exports. That is demand-side economics in action.

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   DLayneposted 7 years ago

   Disagree.  I am over using that method.

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   Tim Truzy info4uposted 7 years ago

   We can agree: All and all politicians are the "brick in the wall" (Thanks, Pink Floyd). Although the song is about education, our politicians could use a little of that. A wall, physical or not, would not stop determined people. (According to a report I read, most drugs and illegal immigration comes through tunnels. under the border or "mules" carry these things into America.)
   Our president wants to reduce the budget for foreign aid. This is even after 16 generals indicated that was a bad idea. Simply put: If we don't want others to come here, help them create a place worth staying in.
   Planned Parenthood is a good thing. How many women die trying to perform their own abortions? How better to reduce the burden on the country by allowing people to make choices for their own future? It also helps control population explosion.
   In this, both Trump and the Dems are wrong. We need a functioning government.
   In any case, I must ask Trump supporters: I thought Mexico was supposed to pay for the wall? What happened? He shifted the responsibility to us-and now-threatens to stop our government from working.

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      jackclee lmposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      For your education, you don't need to write a check to pay for something...
      There are many ways to make Mexico pay for the wall.
      Just one example, a tax on the wire transfers from US to Mexico...
      We have taxes for just about everything...one more will discourage the illegals from sending money home and pay for the wall at the same time. A win win in my mind.
      A physical wall works if applied properly. It wouldn't  stop 100% but even 95% is a huge improvement.
      The wall by itself is not enough, it is a symbol. What is needed is better border patrol, increased crackdown on sanctuary cities, and tightening of tourist visas and tracking them for over stay...
      All these are common sense ideas to protect our soverignty. Kate's law is another one that will discourage people from re-entering here illegally and committing crimes...
      
      What you and most other liberals fail to undestand is that we are dealing with humans. They are very adaptible and they respond to policies. If they get the impression we are not serious about our borders, more will come...on the other hand, if you send the message we are serious, guess what, they will look for other means like legally applying as everyone else in the world...who wants to come here.
      How hard is this to understand?
      
      What you are pushing for by doing nothing is prolonging this inequity and enabling them to break our laws and be treated as second class immigrants and being exploited. As a conservative, I want the best for all people. The best for these immigrants is to stop coming here illegally.

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         Will Apseposted 7 years agoin reply to this

         If you need a symbol I would go for a broken parrot.
         
         

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            jackclee lmposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            Definition of insanity by Einstein -
            Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result...haha

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      Castlepalomaposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      TIM
      In any case, I must ask Trump supporters: I thought Mexico was supposed to pay for the wall? What happened? He shifted the responsibility to us-and now-threatens to stop our government from working.
      
      The WRATH of Trump, and broken parrots. Lol.

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   Sharlee01posted 7 years ago

   Why not stop all the what if, and say hey maybe...  Let me remind all, he won, and he won on a bold agenda. An agenda that many of us vote for him. One only his to have an open mind, One of his promises was to build that wall.  He is keeping many of his promises. Is Mexico going to pay for the wall, no.. Are more working, have we replaced the money in our stock portfolios. Is illegal border crossing down? Is our military now able to see a doctor when needed?  I could go on and on...  Time to wake up to facts, and do some real research. Media propaganda is resulting in hysteria. Will he  cause a Government shutdown?   I don't know.  I do know Obama caused a shutdown to push through Obamacare, and not many became so outraged. If he causes a shutdown, it will not upset me.  I  as well as millions voted for change. Sometime change can be brought about not by protesting, but just standing strong with your silent conviction.

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   Tim Truzy info4uposted 7 years ago

   Wow! A conservative, Jack! You want more taxes! And how would that be monitored--for your information--taxes seldom change behavior completely. People just find other routes. Why do you think so many people work (under the table?" Retirees do it all the time.
   By the way, I enjoy all my Hub pages friends, conservative or not. We probably have a more realistic discussion of the topics than our government officials. (Who am I? Conservative? Libertarian? Liberal?)  I am a concerned American.
   Inasmuch, I took an informal survey of thirty Americans, the results would surprise you. They don't want to do the work migrant workers do. Several companies (Tyson Foods, RJR Nabisco, and others) are complaining they can't find enough workers for the fields. So when we talk about immigration; it's good for a nation. (Ask the aging population of some European countries.) Exploitation? Didn't you know that's the capitalist way?
   Of course, shut them all out! (lol) They will just find a way to knock the wall down. Or corporations may bring the sledge hammer.

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      jackclee lmposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      I am glad we are having this discussion. Those people you say don't want to do the work... that was our creation. Did their ancestors refuse to work? Of course not. That is what build this great nation. When you offer entitlements on average of 40,000 a year in benefits, no wonder people don't want to work for minimum wage...
      I used to work at a non profit where people with disability work P/T for minimum wage. They are very happy. However, they are not allowed to work more than 20 hours a week.Can you guess why?
      They will loose part or all of rheir benefits if they make above a certain income. That is how screwed up our system has become.
      If you take away the food stamps and the housing subsidies, we will see if Americans will work in the fields and anywhere...

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   Tim Truzy info4uposted 7 years ago

   Yes, but they will start a revolution. Why should the 1 percent stash away their profits why people around them starve? Why should bit corporations have the right to take from the land, take their profits offshore, while the nation they took from perishes? As I said, we tried "supply-side" economics, and this has been the result.
   Our ancestors didn't have the responsibility of being a global leader. Our ancestors, Jack, probably wouldn't be allowed in this country if portions of the right-wing ruled. (Jim Crow; restrictive immigration for Asians, Africans, and certain "undesira ble Europeans was the standard in the early 20th century.)
   Go ahead. Take away their Food Stamps. "Let them eat cake." Famous words, huh!

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      jackclee lmposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Tim,  your ignorance is astonding. The early immigration waves of each ethnic groups were part of our makeup as a melting pot nation. They contributed to our development as a nation. There was no free lunch then. People came here to work and better themselves...
      In 2017, it is a very different situation. We have unemployment and under employment of 15% of our population. We have food stamps and welfare going onto 40 million people. Some of them are able bodied and could work but chose not to...
      We also have illegals in our community upwards of 20 million and more...nobody knows for sure...
      
      Have you been to some of our cities in the east and west coast? Some cities are 90% or more of one ethnic group. In NYC where I grew up, queens county, downown Flushing is like a city in Taiwan or in China. This not not about race as much as you want to make it out to be. Our country are plenty generous. We allow over 1 million people from all over the world to immigrate here legally every year.
      
      But there is a limit to our generosity. Given the open border policies we have been on, in a few decades, our country will no longer be the same. We have people and groups that comes here and don't speak our language. They don't know our heritage, they don't or want to assimilate. They are happy to do their own thing...
      There are some that comes here to exploit our generosity, with welfare and food stamps...abuses...
      No other country in the world has this as a public policy.
      We cannot sustain it.

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    Tim Truzy info4uposted 7 years ago

    Jack, first of all, I don't do name calling. It's beneath me. Nor do I question another man's intelligent. I was taught better than that. Perhaps, you don't know this: the beginning of wisdom is "I don't know." So, calling me "ignorant" is a compliment.
    Second, the "melting pot" is an illusion. We are more a nice conglomerate of people. Haven't you seen how people in cities tend to stay in their groups. It's more a stew than a well-formed dessert. (China Town, Little Italy; German Town; all in the same city). Are you stewing in your sauce now?
    If your ear is glued to the Fox's mouth, what you wrote, and the conservative glib you spit out is expected. Thanks. I'm done here.

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       jackclee lmposted 7 years agoin reply to this

       Ignorance is bliss! - Thomas Gray.

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          Misfit Chickposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          You would know all about that, Jack. Diversify your media sources, learn to think your own thoughts, and you will be AMAZED at the broader perspective you gain about your own reality.
          
          I've noticed that you're ignoring my insightful perspective again - so I repeat:
          
          ...whatever happened to MEXICO paying for the wall? Wasn't that the original campaign promise?
          
          Why is it okay to you for Trump to blackmail this country, now? Why do you insist on building a wall instead of the much less expensive options?
          
          Answer: Building the expensive wall pours millions of dollars into our economy - which is not much different than 'bailing out banks' as far as using American taxpayer dollars in a dysfunctional way goes. Its a ridiculous expense that GOP want so they can get back pats (and money!) from the large corporations that would obtain contracts for building this wall - plus, LOOK! Job creation!!!
          
          Its an illusion meant to twist their base into a twitterpated state of ignorant bliss while they acheive their selfish goals that keep this nation in a state of stagnation.

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             jackclee lmposted 7 years agoin reply to this

             There you go again assume...so much about me when you know very little. Why don't you believe me when I tell you I do check many sources...how do you think I came to my conclusions about the main street media... Unlike the left, who rely on spin, I actually watch all these programs and decided for myself who to trust...and who is really biased...
             
             As far as the wall goes, you have not been paying attention. I have explained the idea of the wall as a symbol of both physical and generic. It is a wall in the sense it is meant to protect us from illegal immigrants. Mexico can and will pay for it but not necessarily up front or with a check. There are numerous ways that can be accomplished which might be hard for you to comprehend.
             The American people over whelmingly support this. Yet, our politicians and media consistently defy the wishes of the people...why? Isn't it democracy?

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                Will Apseposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                Apparently, most Americans do not have much faith in Trump's wall.
                
                
                
                http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 … ay-for-it/

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                   Castlepalomaposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                   Trump, still is not building the wall, and I think he will not finish it.
                   Good news to the world.

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                   Misfit Chickposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                   Jack wrote: "Unlike the left, who rely on spin, I actually watch all these programs and decided for myself who to trust...and who is really biased..."
                   
                   Also, "Mexico can and will pay for it but not necessarily up front or with a check. There are numerous ways that can be accomplished which might be hard for you to comprehend. The American people over whelmingly support this. Yet, our politicians and media consistently defy the wishes of the people...why?"
                   
                   Hmmmm... Who has the more difficult time understanding stuff according to this graphic, Jack?
                   
                   Keep trying... one day, your brain just might break through the fog. I, for one, have high hopes.

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    peoplepower73posted 7 years ago

    Raising the debt ceiling is how we pay our bills for the last fiscal year. The government operates on a credit card where they spend the money that was budgeted for in one fiscal year and then by raising the budget debt ceiling, they pay for the expenditures of that fiscal year in the next fiscal year. That debt is then added to the national debt. Trump's national debt is almost 20 trillion dollars. Here is the link to the real time national debt clock.
    http://www.usdebtclock.org/
    Here are the unattended consequences of shutting down the government.
    The 16-day government shutdown of October 2013, which was the longest since 1980, resulted in an estimated $24 billion in lost economic output, or 0.6 percent of projected annualized GDP growth, according to the Standard & Poor’s ratings agency.
    Here is the link to why Trump will probably not shut down the government for his wall.
    http://wapo.st/2wDK4MC?tid=ss_tw&utm_term=.063...

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