How much does moral behavior affect the social fabric?
p.s. Jeromeo answered the question quite nicely, i think.
In a way it was all moral and social stuff. In a way it was nothing to do with it.
The empire tried to expand too quickly (due to greed) so its forces were spread too thinly. This is why society collapses. They, literally, just got wiped out.
Translation: Modern America is comparable to Ancient Rome. The moral corruption that was rife then is also prevalent now and will cause the collapse of the United States if allowed to go unchecked. You can (and must) stop this by subscribing to the same spiritual/religious and political beliefs I subscribe too. If you don't then we're all going to hell in a communist/atheist hand-basket.
Summary: Repent, the end is nigh!
There's some evidence that lead poisoning was a contributory factor in the decline. Wine acids and lead are a lethal combination. The Roman aristocracy arguably destroyed their own intelligence with poisoned wine and lost the ability and interest to keep on top of matters out in the field.
I know that sounds like a crazy conspiracy theory, but it's reckoned to have been a factor, if not the whole truth.
But there's your answer - if overindulging in wine (which they did) is immoral, then yes, immorality was instrumental in the fall of the Roman Empire
Roman society collapsed over a long period of time. It didn't just happen over night. The true wonder is why ancient Rome lasted so long. Christianity was brought in as a state religion to shore up the social decay that was evident. Rome had really grown too big too fast. The city, for example, became dependent on grain from Egypt. When Egypt suffered drought then famine Rome also suffered from lack of grain.
Christianity didn't help the Roman situation as much as Constantine and the other Roman emperors that came after him were hoping it would. Christian bishops when they came into real power were divided over what Christianity was all about. If Jesus was the equal of his heavenly father doesn't this suggest that there are, in reality, two gods? There were bishops who were all for this two god approach. Constantine, however, went with the idea that Jesus was from the essence of the one and only true god and this belief has come down to us. Divisions in Christianity meant in the end divisions between Eastern style Christianity and what has become Western Christianity. Dividing the empire into east(Constantinople) and west (Rome) seemed to hold some promise. It worked for a while.
When the barbarians from the north sacked Roman a number of times I suppose you could then say Rome was finished as a formidable power. These barbarians, especially the Normans, created the holy Roman empire in remembrance in part of the ancient Roman empire but that is another story.
My take at any rate.
Don, that was good ! This is a big question with much to comment on, maybe the makings of a new hub !
They fell because they too could not spell society or collapse. LOL
OK. But I warn you, I have some good canines. LOL Don't cha just hate that ya can't fix that? They need to make a way for us to edit the title too. LOL
Their grammar may have been atrocious too?
Greed,moral/political corruption, & being extended to far militarily.
I guess we got them all working about now.
Its interesting that some notice what the romans did wrong, but they don't see the comparison. Good answer btw Jeromeo
you are absolutley right. They had a large welfare state as each roman citizen was guaranteed certain amounts ofgrain and meat, which caused incredible entitlement. They could no longer afford their society. The moral and political corruption was immense. It is a story that could be told of us in the future
I read today that half of american children are fed by welfare.
According to Rousseau's 'War & the Lasting State of Peace' Rome never collapsed - the senators just swapped their gowns for clerics' robes
Roman elites would use the church and state to their advantage. While one family member may stand to inherit the family wealth, other siblings would often join the clergy, therefore keeping family wealth centralised. At the same time the families would give money, lands, etc, to the church....
The non-church administration, however, lost its tax base over time.
The prestige of being a Roman elite had to do with service to community. The town council, per se, would be responsible for paying taxes to the center (Rome). Yet, over time this feeling of civil pride faded as tax demands from Rome increased. People, more and more, would hide their wealth, and therefore keep from having to serve on the town council (and be liable for tax payments).
They would sell their lands to others (while secretly retaining them for themselves) in order to show the state that they were poor, and therefore unable to serve their communities.
The Roman elite in the church never had this problem, and through their missionary work with the Germannic peoples they came in contact with, whether in the territory that would become England, or France, or Germany, to keep their status intact.
Too few have read Rousseau.......
I thought so.
But seriously, if you see the world the way I do, Rome didn't collapse and is still collapsing, as is all the world we know as Earth, the Universe and Infinity.
No problem Sneak, we all have been there. I did a porate thread, shoulda been pirate. The Roman Civilization fell because of corruption, and bad spelling, you ever try spelling Latin? LOL
It was probably because of Boudicca our most famous Celtic queen, she wipped their a...s. and after she fought them and they eventually killed her, they thought to themselves, my God do we have to live in britain and marry women like that? Bright red hair streaming out behind her, screaming and wipping the horses in her chariot, stabbing and swinging a sword in every direction. and that was on a good day! imagine if they asked her for a cup of coffee, and if she woke up in a bad mood! A mad English woman chasing them around the bedroom with a machete... does'nt bear thinking about, the Romans being so refined and all!
Gay marriage and gun control.
Oh yeah, and socialized medicine.
I think the Roman Empire fell because the big money machines of the day were in bed with the government. Just sayin'.
(shrugs) I think they had a good run...time eventually caught up to the corruption and internal struggles...because, lets face it, people suck!
It certainly didn't help that the Roman government couldn't come up with the right answer to a relative no-brainer question, "Those Goths want equal treatment, and they're getting restless. What should we do?"
Maybe if they'd laid off the poisonous wine they could have thought that one through!
There are many theories about what led to the collapse of the Roman Empire. Some say that constant barbarian incursions into Roman territory had a lot to do with it. Overextension of military forces and the maintenance of said forces became too much of a burden.
I think I've heard some experts say that bad governance by tyranical emperors and their extravagant spending on various building projects for the purposes of self-glorification is said to have been a factor.
Then again, it could have just been tainted wine as Paraglider has suggested.
Perhaps all of the above contributed in some way to the fall of the Roman Empire.
Like Dubai, you mean?! Especially the self-glorifying building projects - man made islands, world's tallest tower etc...
Plus ca change
is strange, a wealthy nation looking to add assistance for their future
Dubai isn't naturally rich. It built its real estate, commerce & tourism empire on borrowed money and inflation. It doesn't have its own oil or gas, unlike Abu Dhabi or Qatar. It's now a burst bubble, dependent on Abu Dhabi to bail it out.
The Romans were unimaginative bureaucrats, like the UK government today. Their society inevitably became stale and started to moulder away.
The Roman empire lasted for nearly 2000 years. It itself is a great thing. As generations pass by, people tend to become heroes themself, instead of glorifying their elders.
In the case of Rome, the neighbouring countries improved enormously. England established monarchy and annexed neighbouring states of Scotland, Wales and Ireland. It became powerful and had more influence on other European countries. That is one reason.
The discovery of new lands in east, west and Africa made Rome lose its importance. With new colonies and new sources of revenue, the European countries stopped caring about Rome. That is another reason.
As long as the Christian influence ruled over the Romans, they were strong intact. After the founding of Protestant sect, the original religion, which later became Catholic lost its glory. With religious glory vanishing, Rome lost its supremacy. That is the third and final reason.
Your timeline is skewed. Adopting Christianity as a state religion coincided precisely with the beginning of the fall of the empire. There's a lesson there for the U.S. Of course you would have to be able to read to learn the lesson...........
So skewed, I don't know where to begin. Suffice to say, England didn't annex anybody during the Roman Empire. It was itself part of the Roman Empire. The Scots were also so feared that Hadrian's Wall was built to keep them out of Brittania. Upon rumors that the Irish were even crazier, the Romans opted to simply not bother with them.
As for adopting Christianity, I think there were indicators that Rome was declining well before Constantine's time, such as the persecution of the Church. Whenever a government puts so much effort into targeting one particular group, it's obvious they only want a scapegoat for their own problems.
European colonization occurred long after Rome fell.
Care to explain how Protestant religion existed before the Catholic one? If I recall correctly, the bible took decades if not a century or more to be completed and distributed. How can a religion base it's teachings solely off of a book when said book has yet to take a completed form? Tradition would seem to be a neccessary element here.
they were replaced by a better society, politically, more organized, new religion, fresh new set of world order...the English civilization I call it
But bear in mind that England did not become a major world power until after the Norman conquest in 1066, nearly 600 years after the most common date given for the "fall" of Rome, 476 AD, and that it was only one of many European countries jostling for position for another ~600 years after that. It wasn't until the 16th and 17th centuries that England really became a dominant power, and not until the 18th and 19th centuries that it really reached its zenith, about 1500 years after Rome's fall.
would you call it dark ages after the roman empire fell down
"Dark ages" puts it mildly, to be frank.
It's hard even to fathom how far Europe fell and how long it was stagnant afterwards. Charlemagne made some attempts at improving the situation in the late-8th century - that's 300 years after Rome fell, longer than the United States has been a country. The 600 years from Rome's fall to the Norman conquest of England is longer than Europeans (a few Scandinavian sailors excepted) have known that America existed.
When you think about how much has happened in those 600 years and how little we know of anything that happened in the 600 years after the fall of Rome, it really puts things into perspective.
Hey, I am English, and I'd say both Rome and England were not exactly "civilized"! I mean, the Romans were a military empire; if someone conquered half the known world today by military might, we wouldn't praise them, would we? Who praises the Soviet Union for example?
As for the British empire, well, ditto...
I mean, at least the Americans didn't go marching around the world to achieve the might they did (though native peoples would disagree with me). They've done a fair bit since then, of course, but it's pretty impressive that they were such a power by the middle of twentieth century while they only had a few, small colonies...
...I mean, in comparison to the British: who basically stole everything they could find, the world over.
(Let's see how this one plays out: a Brit defending the US, and a bunch of Yanks leaping to the defence of the English, perhaps?!!!! )
Being greedy turned on them and led to self destruction.
It happens in all situations when the fundamentals are greed.
Here's a great web site that outlines the multiple factors that various authors have attributed to the decline.
http://www.visualstatistics.net/East-We … tivity.htm
Interestingly, some of those same factors are present in the USA today.
As far as I was aware I thought a big part was the use of lead, from cosmetics to lead pipes. All that lead poisoning in the higher classes must have been a factor....
The use of alchemists to produce gold from lead. What they ended up doing is producing gold colored lead which was then made into goblets, plates, and other things that the aristocracy used. This made them dumb and thus they did dumb things.
Or like any empire, they outgrew themselves and rotted from the inside out.
Who knows. Who really knows. None of us was there...
I am pretty sure it wasn't sleeping around though...
Rome fell due to coruption on all levels. The most devastating was moral because it affects all aspects of life.
Possibly true. It seems reasonable that a widespread lack of stability in the family unit could erode a civil society, for example (if that is what they had). But, again, none of us here (I assume) is a professional ancient historian, so...
I wouldn't listen to me I don't know much of anything.
When asked how long did the Roman empire last for this site says this.
Romulus Augustus was deposed by the Germanic chieftain Odoacer. (Source)
This map fairly clearly shows that the Western Roman Empire fell to Germanic tribes such as the Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Vandals and Huns. The British Isles were not invaded by the Angles, Saxons and Jutes (the English) until after the Romans left the British Isles in the 5th century AD.
From 610 with the birth of Islam the Eastern Roman Empire fell to the Islamic sword. Note in the first map below how the middle east was Christian before the birth of Islam. This gives a clearer meaning to the Crusades when you consider they were just meant to secure a safe passage for pilgrims to the Holy Land.
The above 3 maps are taken from this Source under the title of 'Whom invaded Whom, again?"
Note the Khazar Khanate in the above map. This was a powerful kingdom in the 700s made up of Aryan Turkic tribes. In 740 the Khazarian King had his whole empire convert to Judaism. They are now know as Ashkenazi Jews and make up the majority of the Jews today. (Source)
This just a comment, so don't dump all over me.
The reason societies fall, is because they are too convinced that changing anything in the way they live will somehow greatly
effect them. Like they might suddenly all drop dead if thier Capitalist country suddenly became a socialist or communist country. They are so full of their old ideas, that anyone who threatens that idea needs to be taken out with war.
If it isn't government related, societies continue to fight over religion. And, back then, if your were an emporer, you considered yourself a god, and whomever did not obey your wishes was executed on the spot. I would assume it was more than likely a war over religion that was their downfall.
One thing I have always loved came from "John Lennon."
The song was "imagine". A world with no governments, no religions, no money. What would that be like?
The problem is a lot of people can't imagine. And those who are in power wouldn't even dream of it. That is why a great society falls, because they eventually get so stuck in their ways, that when they can't do any better, they lash out, and go out looking for people whom they think are less than them and try to convert them to their ways. Usually with bad results.
Obviously nothing has changed, and we are the new Romans.
Ah - just condensing here - but if I get what you're saying correctly - "failure to adapt/inability to adapt/refusal to adapt" causes collapse - both for the Romans and any society?
Let's all hope that history will not repeat itself in our generation. The greatest empire on earth at that time was not defeated by their enemies.
The empire collapsed from within the government, the political needs for power and greed.
Sounds a little like what is happening today.Time will only tell if history will repeat itself?
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