In another life, I worked with the National Security Agency on "black box stuff" that was used in the Minuteman missile fail safe system. I held a secret clearance with crypto access. A security clearance could get revoked for many reasons, but none of them included being punished for criticizing your superior.
Trump has revoked one clearance already, but is threatening to revoke more for the purpose of punishing those who criticize him
This brings to mind the classic tale of the Emperor has new clothes. For those of you who don't know it, it is about an emperor who loved to change clothes all the time and have the townspeople praise him for his beautiful clothes.
One day he heard there were two new milliners in town who could make exquisite clothes. Little did he know these milliners were con men and they knew the emperor would pay big bucks for new clothes.
He went to see them and they said they would make invisible clothes for him and the only people that could see the clothes were those who were smart and loyal to him.
Everybody heard about the invisible clothes and when the emperor paraded naked down the street in his new invisible clothes, they praised him for fear of being punished for not being loyal to him or ignorant. There was one little girl who shouted out that the emperor was naked and her father silenced her for fear she would be punished.
The story is about a situation where "no one believes, but everyone believes that everyone else believes. Or alternatively, everyone is ignorant to whether the emperor has clothes on or not, but believes that everyone else is not ignorant
That my friends is what Trump is doing. If you criticize him, you will be punished in one form or another that he calls "counter-punching."
I also believe, there are many who are afraid to tell him he is "naked" for fear of retribution. That's why he has his staff and aides sign non-disclosure agreements that include "thou shall not demean King Trump."
Now, now, folks, I once started a thread comparing some U.S. citizens' acceptance or ignoring of Trump's racist, authoritarian rhetoric and behavior as eerily reminiscent of the early days of Hitler and, of course, was roundly chastised for using the Hitler comparison.
Some people seem to think there is never an appropriate time for that. I say we are enduring some scary, dark days and if we don't recognize the serious threat to our country we are doomed. The threat is the citizens who look the other way or outright defend the assault on our justice system and free press. Our fellow citizens who allow this to continue: their acquiescence to and approval of this behavior is the real threat.
My thoughts too. From where I am on the other side of the Atlantic there is a widespread feeling of incredulity at the things that Mr Trump is allowed to get away with. He clearly thinks that he has some powers usually found only in a dictatorship. Why should we in Europe care? Because he occupies the most powerful position on Earth. How did that happen?!
I am embarrassed and horrified that a significant portion of my fellow citizens continue to support this disgusting man. My apologies. Some of us are working hard to get him out of office.
Ivana said that when they were married, Trump kept a book on Hitlers speeches by his bedside.
https://www.businessinsider.com/donald- … bed-2015-8
Hitler took Germany from a decimated WWI to were it was a thriving nation. He also exterminated 6 million Jews in the process while the population looked the other way. It is not hate that is dangerous, it is indifference. The people were indifferent to what he did to the Jews because he Made Germany Great Again...sound familiar?
Trump comes on board and wants to Make America Great Again. He creates this false reality that under Obama, America was a failed state that only he could fix. He also creates a false reality to his supporters that now he is doing great and wonderful things that no other president in the history of the nation have ever done.
I have heard many people in these forums and elsewhere say I don't really like him, but he is doing such great things for this country, which is another way of saying, they are indifferent to his harsh behavior.
He has even sold the Evangelical Christians on his new reality. Their and his supporters are all willing to be indifferent to his immorality, and cruelness to the media, because he taking credit for an economic trend that Obama started.
ICE and his Zero Tolerance policy are even like Hitler's Gestapo. Just like Hitler, he will punish you for criticizing him. He will take away your security clearances or demean you in other ways, that will make him look superior.
The only saving grace we have, is that he can only be president for 8 years, unless he changes that as well.
"he taking credit for an economic trend that Obama started."
I thought you were making a Joke!
He he he!!
Oh, you weren't.
That's all you got from that post?
Proving the point of the discussion.
The election and his behavior happens in part because of 3 reasons:
1. Massive propaganda, which continues even now.
2. Russian interference.
3. A horrible change in election laws that allowed corrupt billionaires to spend an unlimited amount of money on getting their way.
Not unlike Brexit ...
GA: The Emperor has no clothes ... an interesting thought peoplepower73, but I don't see it that way. I don't think it is an applicable analogy.
GA: I don't see it as folks refusing to say what they really see for fear of retribution, I see it as folks seeing what they see because they want to see it.
M: This is what I said: I also believe, there are many who are afraid to tell him he is "naked" for fear of retribution. That's why he has his staff and aides sign non-disclosure agreements that include "thou shall not demean King Trump."
M: What I mean by many, is mainly his staff and many in the GOP as well as some Dems, not the populous.
I agree with everything else you stated. I think Trump plays to people's fantasies by lying, exaggerating and glorifying what they want to see and hear.
They are willing to look the other way about his mean and cruel behavior of punishing in one form or another those who criticize him. His supporters could care less about the 2,300 children who have been separated from their parents. They see Trump with clothes, not naked.
They don't care or understand that he is acting as an authoritarian who is creating an Economic Nationalistic, Isolationist country, as long as they believe they are getting or are going to get what they see as Making America Great Again...even though it has always been great.
The Emperor has no clothes ... an interesting thought peoplepower73, but I don't see it that way. I don't think it is an applicable analogy.
I don't see it as folks refusing to say what they really see for fear of retribution, I see it as folks seeing what they see because they want to see it.
The question is what are they seeing? Domestically, it seems the economic numbers they want to see are there. I say "seems" because I am not convinced that the numbers are painting a true picture, yet - emphasis on "yet," and also because I don't think the domestic economic picture is the whole picture.
I completely agree with Trump supporters that our domestic economic interests should be a priority, but I am concerned that they are being viewed as the whole picture, which I disagree with.
I think there are things that are more important, but less tangible, than just 'stats'. Whether those stats be coal miner's jobs or trade balances.
I think our national identity, that is, what Americans think America stands for, is almost as important as economic stats. I only say "almost" because if your country is going down the tubes economically, then you don't have the luxury of holding to an "identity."
My worries aren't found in your Emperor's new clothes" analogy, it is in the historical examples of the dangers of nationalistic and isolationist thought. That is the camp where I see Trump supporters.
Going back to a previously used phrase, I am wondering if the medicine, (as viewed by Trump supporters), of the cure, is worse than the disease.
I am struggling to maintain the optimism that the disease is worse than the cure.
That last paragraph tells me you have been partaking in too much of the Kool Aid proffered by the likes of the 'left-wing' media, methinks.
The Nationalist/Isolationist thought you are concerned about, is in reality about people wanting to see a rebalancing of Trade Agreements, limiting immigration (and thereby forcing companies to fight over the employee pool available and raise wages which had been stagnant for well over two decades), and supporting the Constitution and Bill of Rights rather than going with the Liberal/Progressive belief that those documents are obsolete and need to be trashed because we are in 'The Current Year'.
Deeper than that, which it seems I constantly have to bring up because so many want to ignore it, is the issue that some 70%+ of Americans don't trust their government, don't trust Congress to do what is right for them, and feel they have been sold out to the Globalization agenda and/or Corporate greed.
That is why we have Trump, and this is why his popularity continues to go up, despite all efforts of the Political class, biased Media and their pundits to disparage him. People see Trump taking on 'Fake News', phony Politicians that have lied to them for decades, and foreign nations that have taken all their industrial jobs, and they love him more than ever.
Its a Trump thing, its a 'I want a better job and better pay' thing, not a National Socialist thing, not a Isolationist thing. The left, and anyone for that matter who doesn't recognize these facts, are way off the mark.
Its why the Dems (anti-Trumpers) can't gain any traction, they can't recognize why people support him, and why he is gaining in popularity, they keep calling him a racist, sexist, Russian-puppet and expecting the American people (those not already duped into believing anything that is shoveled their way) to buy into it... but they don't, and they won't.
Take comfort in knowing that eventually the Pendulum will swing the other way, back towards Globalism, Socialism, and Open Borders... just not in 2018, or anytime in the foreseeable future.
That "... too much of the Kool Aid..." and "... methinks," was weak Ken, and not up to the standard I expected. Just as was twisting my "nationalistic" to "National Socialist."
The defensiveness of your reply prompts me to wonder if you see things the same way as I viewed jackclee's comments; If it isn't rah-rah Trump, then it is anti-Trump.
Except for the 70% number, (I think it is probably a majority, but am doubtful of your 70% peg), I mostly agree with the points you offered. I also believe those problems need fixing, and our Constitution and Rule of Law protected. Hence my reference to the medicine being worse than the disease.
But ... and sticking with the "medicine" analogy, it is the side effects that I was speaking of.
Side effects like our president's public actions embodying lower standards than any of us would ever want our nation to stand for; personal attacks, name-calling, blustery hyperbole, and self-aggrandizement. Maybe, those actions are the only way to win the battles he has to fight ... maybe. Maybe those character traits are his natural defense against the massive opposition to him and his actions ... maybe. But if so, then my thoughts go back to the question about the cure being worse than the disease.
I would take no comfort in thinking that the pendulum could swing back the way you say. At this point, my only comfort is the hope that we are seeing a real-life Francisco D'Anconia.
Of course Francisco was just a fictional character, but, he was fighting a Trumpian-type battle. Even so, it seemed this thought still applied:
"“Ask yourself what it is that a code of moral values does to a man’s life, and why he can’t exist without it, and what happens to him if he accepts the wrong standard, by which the evil is the good.”
"At this point, my only comfort is the hope that we are seeing a real-life Francisco D'Anconia"
Didn't he deliberately bankrupt the family business to stop anyone else from running it?
Maybe my recollection is wrong.
Almost right Don. He bankrupted the family business, (his business, there were no other family), in order to bankrupt the "takers" that had taken over the government.
The "takers" were using the power of the government - that they controlled, (and worse powers - like blackmail), to usurp the fruits of the nation's producers to enrich themselves and control the "moochers," (the non-producers of the nation).
But that was not the aspect of Francisco that I was referring to. My reference was to his portrayal of himself as one of the "takers," a deliberate facade adopted solely to allow him to do what he needed to do to oust the "takers." And that was my early hope, relative to Pres. Trump's public actions.
I admit, its far from my best.
The public’s trust in the federal government continues to be at historically low levels. Only 19% of Americans today say they can trust the government in Washington to do what is right “just about always” (3%) or “most of the time” (16%).
Fewer than three-in-ten Americans have expressed trust in the federal government in every major national poll conducted since July 2007 – the longest period of low trust in government in more than 50 years. In 1958, when the American National Election Study first asked this question, 73% said they could trust the government just about always or most of the time.
http://www.people-press.org/2015/11/23/ … 1958-2015/
Only 19 percent of Americans — about 1 in 5 — say they trust the government "always or most of the time," according to a study released by the Pew Research Center on Monday.
https://www.npr.org/2015/11/23/45706379 … government
Majority of Americans See Congress as Out of Touch, Corrupt
[The Majority] believe that most members of Congress are "out of touch with average Americans" (79%), "focused on the needs of special interests" rather than the needs of their constituents (69%) and corrupt (52%).
https://news.gallup.com/poll/185918/maj … rrupt.aspx
Poll: Young Americans Trust Trump More Than Media or Congress
A study of young Americans shows that, even though they skew Democrat, they trust President Donald Trump more than they trust the media or Congress to ‘Do the Right Thing” all, or most, of the time.
Fair enough Ken, 70% it is. Whether a simple majority or 70%, your point is carried; a majority of Americans don't trust their government.
An interesting thought would be how that distrust is placed. By that, I mean is it personalized, like all Congress is crooked - except my Congressmen, or, is it ideological, like Conservatives don't trust the government to protect the Constitution, vs. Liberals not trusting the government to interpret it correctly.
As a side-note, and intended only as an observation; I am currently reading J. Edgar Hoover - The Man and The Secrets," by Curt Gentry. It sure doesn't generate a feeling of trust for the FBI. I am sure most have heard of the alleged' abuses of power and secret files of Hoover, but this read certainly causes me to wonder if the FBI has changed it's spots since Hoover's time.
If only 19 % of America has trust in the federal government , I wonder today , What is the percentage of Americans that have no real clue about how the federal government actually works to begin with?
Too many Americans , especially the young have only a shallow understanding based on the idealisms "What do I get from government " ignoring that we as a people actually ARE the government .
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