Is capitalism getting in the way of socialism to mitigate COVID-19?

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  1. peoplepower73 profile image92
    peoplepower73posted 12 months ago

    https://usercontent2.hubstatic.com/14944679.jpg
    Currently, there is an extremely urgent need for PPE (Personal Protection Equipment), ventilators, and health resources by all 50 states.  However, the governors of all 50 states are having to compete with each other and FEMA to bid on these necessities to mitigate the spread of the virus to others and among front line health care personnel. It has been expressed as bidding on ebay for 50 states and FEMA. 

    But isn't that the way capitalism is supposed to work?  It based on free market enterprise. But wouldn't it be better if FEMA did the purchasing at one set price and then distributed the equipment to the states on an as needed basis based on models and projected forecast? That is how socialism works and in this case it would not only be more cost effective; it would also be more efficient.

    1. Credence2 profile image79
      Credence2posted 12 months agoin reply to this

      But, no, we cannot talk about that dreaded "S" word.....

    2. wilderness profile image97
      wildernessposted 12 months agoin reply to this

      Yes and no.  Capitalism depends on more than simply highest price; companies are well known, for instance, to deal again with other companies that have done well for them in the past even if a slightly higher cost.

      Similarly, you're assuming that it is reasonable for FEMA to be the only entity allowed to purchase these items, setting the price as they wish without regard to value or cost of production.  You're also assuming that they will distribute those items according to greatest need without regard to politics.  Both are unreasonable - this has been noted many times in socialistic/communistic countries, where production and distribution utterly failed because government held all the puppet strings and dictated production quantities, prices and sales.

      In real life, the best is likely what it always is; a mix of both.  Companies set prices based on competition as well as their own costs, FEMA buys what it can at those (varying) prices and the rest goes to those that want it badly enough to pay extra.

      Government is almost never more efficient in either production rates or price controls over private industry.

      1. peoplepower73 profile image92
        peoplepower73posted 12 months agoin reply to this

        Wilderness:

        "In real life, the best is likely what it always is; a mix of both.  Companies set prices based on competition as well as their own costs, FEMA buys what it can at those (varying) prices and the rest goes to those that want it badly enough to pay extra."


        So what you are saying is that companies and FEMA can set their own prices based on supply and demand from the 50 states competing with FEMA.  Isn't that just pure capitalism?

        And as far as government goes in a financial crisis, doesn't the government always bail out Wall Street and its cohorts by creating more money.  Isn't that socialism?  The only capitalism part of that is that the people that created the crisis always get their bonuses via the claw back policies that are part of the bailout money.

        Trump, right now has created a 2T  bailout by printing more money.  Is that socialism or capitalism?

        1. wilderness profile image97
          wildernessposted 12 months agoin reply to this

          Not sure what you're trying to say except that because government took the only steps it knows to keep a working economy it should become as socialistic as possible.  I don't follow the logic here if there is a known, better way.

          Then you claim that because Congress wrote and passed a spending bill, with 100% bipartisan agreement, that it is Trump that created a bailout.  Are you setting up to blame the president for the deficit spending that Congress demanded?

          1. peoplepower73 profile image92
            peoplepower73posted 12 months agoin reply to this

            Wilderness:  I'm not sure congress demanded the spending, it was Trump who asked for the 2T.  And right now he is asking for another 2T for infrastructure improvements.  That will be 4T added to the national debt of 23.6T  Talk about big government spending!!

            1. wilderness profile image97
              wildernessposted 12 months agoin reply to this

              LOL  Congress wrote the bill and congress voted for it with, I think, but one "nay" vote between the two houses.  They also indicated then that there would most likely be additional bills along the same line.

              But it's all Trump's fault because you don't think it's a good idea.  Are you sure you want to take that road?

      2. MizBejabbers profile image90
        MizBejabbersposted 12 months agoin reply to this

        Now that's a reasonable answer if there is one. I'm proud of you, Wilderness!

        1. wilderness profile image97
          wildernessposted 12 months agoin reply to this

          *bows deeply*  Thank you, MizBejabbers.

    3. GA Anderson profile image91
      GA Andersonposted 12 months agoin reply to this

      This thought sounds good if we lived in an ideal world. But we don't.

      I have heard the news of states competing with each other to buy what they need from Cuomo's briefings, but couldn't the same results be achieved if the states decided not to compete in the market and allow FEMA to be the nation's purchase agent?

      All it would take is state cooperation to do this, and either way, FEMA still ends up being the distributor, (with all those associated problems).

      GA

      1. peoplepower73 profile image92
        peoplepower73posted 12 months agoin reply to this

        GA: 

        Who is going to tell the 50  governors that they should not compete for their supplies and further who is going to enforce it?  The central command and purchasing should come from the top of the federal government, not the states. But Trump appointed Peter Navaro as head of the Defense Production Act. He has no experience running that type of operation. His previous job was advisor to Trump on the China tariffs program.  In fact, it was his idea to levy the tariffs on China.

        As you said, in an ideal world, that would work.  But we don't live in ideal world where the president and his staff are competent in organizing and battling this virus.  Trump is still partly in campaign mode and still can't grasp the gravity of the crisis.  This is evident by his remarks about how he feels someone is stealing the masks and other equipment and his self aggrandizing. In one way I feel sorry for him.  He can't help himself, it's how he is wired. And his task force is incompetent as well because he replaced all his competent people with incompetent people who are loyal to him.

        Cuomo could do it, but he is busy fighting his own battles. Trump says he is the war time president, then he should act like one and be the Commander and Chief of fighting this virus enemy.  The only people he has on his staff who are competent are Dr. Fauci and Dr. Brix.  Trump and his so called task force are letting the states and their front line soldiers flounder on the battle field.

        Mike

        1. GA Anderson profile image91
          GA Andersonposted 12 months agoin reply to this

          Okay, Mike. I tossed in my two cents, but I see it didn't cover the admission charge.

          You obviously have a point to make, so have at it.

          GA

      2. MizBejabbers profile image90
        MizBejabbersposted 12 months agoin reply to this

        I'm not sure about FEMA as the purchaser, GA. We saw those FEMA trailers sitting idly in my state while people went homeless during Hurricane Katrina. Then we heard about those people getting sick from living in the ones that were distributed to the "lucky" recipients. I'm not a socialist, but there is a socialist component to capitalism that actually works. It's called "cooperatives", and they work very well. A bunch of business people (capitalists) get together and form a cooperative such as grocery stores and people in rural electric cooperatives. Combined they have the purchasing power to buy in bulk that the individual business does not have. Then they pass the savings on to the consumer. Why could the hospitals not form cooperatives instead of leaving it up to Big Brother FEMA to blunder through it? I realize there is a time element involved, but I believe they could use the urgency to expedite the purchases. They could form regional or statewide cooperatives which should be much more efficient than FEMA has proven to be in the past.

        1. GA Anderson profile image91
          GA Andersonposted 12 months agoin reply to this

          That is a good point mixBejabbers, another way for the states to cooperate instead of competing.

          GA

        2. peoplepower73 profile image92
          peoplepower73posted 12 months agoin reply to this

          Miz Bejabbers:  I agree with you, cooperatives are a good way to go.  But having medical supply companies have the states vie for the highest bidder is not the way to go. And then having Trump come in with the highest bid does not not help.

          If you watched the task force presentation today, they announced FEMA has 500,000, 15 minute testers from Abbot Labs. But they don't know how to get them to the users who need them.  That tells me there is a disconnect between the states and the federal government possibly caused by bureaucratic log jam.

          1. wilderness profile image97
            wildernessposted 12 months agoin reply to this

            "That tells me there is a disconnect between the states and the federal government possibly caused by bureaucratic log jam."

            Or that they are idiots at FEMA.  Google is your friend; find the 10 largest hospitals in each state and send each one 1,000 tests.  Every hospital receiving them will need them, and UPS or FEDEX can deliver them.  If perchance a hospital in Montana or Alaska gets more than they need, why surely they will share with a more needy facility.

            Problem solved. big_smile

            1. MizBejabbers profile image90
              MizBejabbersposted 12 months agoin reply to this

              Now you've got it. Yes, they are idiots at FEMA. I suggested hospital cooperatives not government cooperatives. Please read my answer to PP73 so I won't repeat it here.

              1. peoplepower73 profile image92
                peoplepower73posted 12 months agoin reply to this

                MizBejabbers:  I read your comment again and you did say hospital cooperatives.  This is the sentence that I misunderstood: "They could form regional or statewide cooperatives which should be much more efficient than FEMA has proven to be in the past."

                In Cuomo's presentation today, he did say that he is re-organizing New York's public and private hospitals into one cooperative without regional  boundaries. In fact they are moving some patients from up state to down state to make to make the care more efficient.

          2. MizBejabbers profile image90
            MizBejabbersposted 12 months agoin reply to this

            I think my suggestion was misunderstood by a couple of people. I didn't suggest states forming a cooperative, I suggested hospitals forming a cooperative. I think anytime you get a government or governments involved there will be graft, greed and a bunch of shifty hands in the mix.
            I didn't watch the presentation today, but it sounds like FEMA is up to its same incompetence it showed at the trailer fiasco during Katrina. I don't think FEMA can be trusted to organize a one-car funeral.

      3. Ken Burgess profile image91
        Ken Burgessposted 12 months agoin reply to this

        Yeah Cuomo sure made a show about how awful it was that they didn't have enough Ventilators, went on and on about how the President should do something.

        Cuomo the next day responded to a comment from Trump on Twitter that there were thousands of ventilators in New York not being used. "Yes, they're in a stockpile because that's where they are supposed to be, because we don't need them yet," Cuomo said. "We need them for the apex, the apex isn't here, so we're gathering them in a stockpile."

        Darn... if only Capitalism hadn't gotten in the way of getting them those ventilators.

        As for the masks, gloves, etc... it would be easy to gather them up, except that they have been rerouted to China for months now.  While China lied to the world that they had this under control, they were buying up all the stockpiles or medical supplies (including masks and gloves) they could get their hands on.

        I'm sure that might have been newsworthy and noticed, if our brilliant politicians in the House weren't making it the top news story everyday with their impeachment efforts, distracting the nation from everything else.

        And then blasting the President for restricting all travel from China... that racist pig, its all his fault... well, him and Capitalism.

    4. Ken Burgess profile image91
      Ken Burgessposted 12 months agoin reply to this

      If it wasn't for Capitalism we could be like China!

      China... where they harvest organs from political prisoners.

      China... where they kill doctors that tried to warn the world of this virus.

      China... Radio Free Asia (RFA) reported that funeral homes in Wuhan have disposed of at least 42,000 corpses. It also cited social media posts by some city residents all saying Wuhan funeral homes are "handing out 3,500 urns every day." At this rate, "42,000 urns would be given out".

      China's "official" figure for total deaths resulting from the disease is only 3,305.

      Socialism... Communism... never seems to work out well for the average Joe, especially in times of crisis,  Prove me wrong.

      https://www.ibtimes.com/china-coronavir … al-2949925

      1. Nathanville profile image93
        Nathanvilleposted 12 months agoin reply to this

        Hi Ken,

        I think if truth be known; the claims being made about China is an over exaggeration. 

        No one denies that the local Chinese Government in Hubei Province tried a cover up, and quite likely the deaths in the early stages from COVID-19 in Wuhan was higher than official recorded.  However, after the National Chinese Government in Beijing got wind of the situation they pushed aside the local government and took matters into their own hands; which included informing the WHO and copying the COVID-19 DNA sequencing to all LABs around the world so that a vaccine can be developed post haste.

        One of the facts, which gets overlooked by propaganda against China (as we know from the way the virus spreads in each country around the world) is that the number of virus deaths start off small and grow exponentially over time.   Therefore, for the period of cover up the actual number of deaths in Hubei Province is likely to be closer to the Official figures than the bloated figures quoted in the propaganda e.g. the Official Figures better fit the statistical trends on the linear charts than the bloated figures in propaganda.

        Part of the problems muddying the waters, and fuelling the propaganda is the war between the USA and China (Trade War, and war of words); further fuelled by the current campaign of the KGB of misinformation to further drive a wedge between China and America e.g. Russia’s attempt to thwart China’s continued desire to Westernise.

        With respect to your link to the International Business Times, as supporting evidence to your claim; I would suggest a word of caution!

        International Business Times ‘Content Quality’:-

        •    International Business Times has been accused by Google for excessive search engine optimization activity e.g. re-working and re-posting the same stories in the hope of getting better Google results.

        •    International Business Times have been criticised for Frequent Practice of ‘clickbait’ e.g. publishing articles that are deceptive, sensationalised or misleading with the express purpose of earning advertising revenue through hyperlink text or thumbnail links, and follow through links.

        Although they themselves have been involved with some smear campaigns, International Business Times isn’t all bad; they have also joined forces with other News Media to combat ‘Fake News’.

        So although the link you provide (as source evidence) for your statement isn’t a totally unreliable source neither can it (on its own) be trusted as totally reliable e.g. read with caution; and independently fact check the claims they make in their article.

        This News Paper Article takes a more balanced and more realistic approach:  https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ … how-report

        Also, don’t dump Socialism in with Communism when you make sweeping statements like “Socialism... Communism... never seems to work out well for the average Joe, especially in times of crisis”

        For example:  If I understand correctly, workers who have been furloughed in the USA, apart from a once off £1,200 pay out only get the equivalent to unemployment benefit?

        Whereas in the UK, all employees who are furloughed during this crisis are being paid by the British Government 80% of their normal wages, so that even though they are not currently working, they do at least have an income near to what they would normally earn to pay the bills and buy food.

        Also, the NHS, which is pure Socialism, is the National Pride of the British People: 

        •    NHS Thank You Song https://youtu.be/_zwgncGG9t4?t=30

        1. Ken Burgess profile image91
          Ken Burgessposted 12 months agoin reply to this



          A fair counter.

          Allow me to give some things for you to ponder.

          First, the Trump Administration's decision to restrict/deny all travel to and from China.  Which the WHO vehemently disapproved of at the time.

          The decision to do so began on 27 January, and the complete ban was implemented on 30 January.

          Next lets consider the economic situation the world was in, the fact that China's economy had been in a depression for over a year, Europe had been in negative interest rates for over a year, and that the Fed was giving out hundreds of billions of dollars to banks to maintain the necessary reserves for months going into this crisis.

          COVID-19 has put the world in a "Fog of War" scenario.  While we panic about the virus, while governments lock down the population world wide, there is a lot going on.

          To understand the economic situation globally, let me refer you to this video:

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBXjlNNNFus

          Its a few years old, but that is what is good about it, Ray accurately explains the debt cycle, the once in a lifetime (once in a century), situation that was fast approaching and why.

          We will have to wait and see where this leads, to fully understand the whys of it.

          Interestingly enough, the Relief Act that Congress passed here in America had reference to a Digital Dollar and Digital Wallet in several different segments that was struck from initial versions... I find it interesting that the supposed initial drafts had mention of something that does not exist...yet.

          Also look at the situation China was in, the depression was real, they had exhausted their means of keeping the economic engine running through debt and government spending, Hong Kong was in open revolt, and there were real fears that it would spread to provinces beyond.

          There is nothing, absolutely nothing the CCP wouldn't do to maintain control, no amount of lives lost is to great, no amount of world disruption is to grave a scenario... the CCP will remain in power and in control at all costs.  To deny this is to deny reality.

          I do not know if you have spent time in Asia, but I have, they have a different mindset, how they perceive their society and government is different from the West, the emphasis in those nations is on the whole, where as in the West it is on the individual.  The State above all else in Asia, in the West we are confused about if we want to even have Nation States and borders, and feel the need to continually change leadership on a regular basis.  I would need to write a book to properly explain how down-to-the-roots different our civilizations are.

          There is a great deal here at play, other than COVID-19.  Time will eventually lift much of the "Fog of War" and we will get a better idea of what went on.

          However this "Russia’s attempt to thwart China’s continued desire to Westernise" seems utterly off base.  The CCP would never allow their nation to "westernize" its laughable to think that the nation that created the Social Credit system we will soon all be living with has been influenced away from "Westernizing" by Russia.

          Russia is a backwater town compared to a Metropolitan center that is China.  Russia sends them oil and gas, and China helps prop them up... not the other way around.

          1. Nathanville profile image93
            Nathanvilleposted 12 months agoin reply to this

            Ken; I shall start with your video.

            Firstly (my background) I do have qualifications in macroeconomics, microeconomics and economic history at ‘A’ Level (essentially, just one step below Degree Level).   Therefore, I do understand the economic situation globally.

            Secondly, I watched the whole video carefully, and Ray Dalio presentation was faultless; he gave good sound Advice for Investors’ portfolios; and interestingly, he has confidence in China’s leadership in managing their economy, and feels that their capabilities are equal to any country in what needs to be done.

            Further to what Ray Dalio said, that’s why in Britain, the Labour Government in 1997 made the Bank of England Independent to the British Government e.g. making the Bank of England responsible for monetary policy, so that monitory policy in the UK is made for economic reasons, and not political reasons; thus leaving British Governments to manage just Fiscal Policy for economic or political reasons.

            Yep, Trump’s decision to ban all travel from China, and later from Europe, to slow the spread of COVID-19 was prudent; something a lot of countries were slow in implementing.  So I don’t see any contention there.

            Actually, China’s economy was NOT in depression (recession).  Its economic growth had slowed to around 6% annual growth in 2019; which was still better than most countries around the world.   And yes I know that interest rates in the USA and EU have been very low for some while.

            As regards to China:-

            Firstly, it was not in depression, just economic slowdown, but still in growth, at around 6%; and doing a lot better than most counties in the world, including the USA and Europe, who were also in economic slowdown (low growth), and much lower growth than China.  But what you may not be aware of is that while the USA was having its Trade war with both China and the EU (dampening world economic growth); China and the EU were stepping up Trade with each other to both countries Economic benefit. 

            To this end, opening up the old silk-roads, which now extend all the way from China to London, has been a great economic benefit to both Europe and China.

            China's New Silk Road London-Yiwu https://youtu.be/zMcBhN49LRo

            Yep, we are fully aware of Hong Kong’s open revolt, and the CCP’s real fears that it could spread to other parts of China.  Yep, we do know that (like Russia) China has a very poor humanitarian record; we haven’t forgotten the 1989 Tiananmen Square massacre, nor forgiven China for it.  Yep, we know that China, just like other Regime’s around the world (including Russia) would stop at nothing to maintain control, and such Regimes don’t value individual rights as we do in the West. 

            But when it comes to Trade, we have to be pragmatic, just as the USA and Europe Trades with a number of countries around the world with poor humanitarian records, and turn a blind eye to what happens in those countries.

            No I have not spent time in Asia, but my Australian cousins (who I keep in close contact with), do quit frequently visit the area; and now they are retired, spent two months holiday in Asia last year.  Also, our close neighbours and friend (two doors away from us) are Chinese immigrants, so I’ve learnt a lot about China and its culture from our friends and relatives.  So I do know that the Chinese Government’s philosophy (just like Russia’s) is on the Nation as a whole, rather than on Individual Rights.

            Yes, economically, and to a large extent politically (overtly) Russia is a backwater town compared to a Metropolitan centre that is China; but that is of Russia’s choosing, because Russia does despise the West.  And yes, China does have limited (but important) Trade with Russia, but then so does the EU.  But that doesn’t stop Russia’s desire to destabilise the West; and taking advantage of COVID-19 Russia (KGB) have been active in the past month in a campaign of ‘Misinformation’ on Social Media.  Russia’s main target has been the UK as they see it as the weakest country in the Western World, because of Brexit e.g. the one Westernised Country most as risk of destabilising politically and socially, and being ripe for (in their eyes) communist uprising.  To further put pressure on the UK Russia have in the past few weeks posted 7 Russian Warships in British waters; all of which have to be shadowed by the Navy at a time when the British Forces are pre-occupied in providing their services in the fight against COVID-19 e.g. building hospitals, maintaining supply chains etc.

            However, the KGB have also focussed on the divisions between the USA and China, seeing it as a weakness that they can exploit to (in their eyes) further destabilise the West.

            Russia sparks Royal Navy alert as Putin sends seven warships to British Channel and North Sea of the coast of Britain https://youtu.be/SzjFhUzMzJE

            1. Ken Burgess profile image91
              Ken Burgessposted 12 months agoin reply to this



              I disagree with this, China's stock market had lost more than half its value, its government did what ours is doing now, pumping trillions of dollars into buying stocks and propping up businesses.

              They were trading food for oil and gas to Russia, and their citizens in return were eating lower quality food (rice made out of plastic, rotten rat meat put in stews) this was not occurring ten years ago when their economy was truly growing at double digits.

              Numbers can be manipulated and falsified, if China says they were at 6% growth, good chance they weren't even at 1% over the last two years.

              Just like the numbers of their sick and dead from Covid-19 can be falsified.  What the actual truth is will remain unknown.

              So we have to go by other factors, this article argues a similar point to your own in regards to where China is/was at:

              https://www.investopedia.com/articles/i … ood-us.asp

              Their Stock Market crashed in 2015, and again in 2018, and their Housing Market was filled with crumbling newly built apartment complexes and a glut of buildings no one was living in.  They built complete cities that barely has any population at all.  By 2019 they were on the precipice of complete economic failure.

              This was being noted and projected as far back as 2016:

              https://www.marketwatch.com/story/this- … 2016-06-30

              You can go much further back than this however, to see that China's eventual collapse was certain, its the nature of debt economics after all.

              https://www.gold-eagle.com/article/chin … depression

              China made the inevitable fall many times worse by doing everything to deny and delay it... and how do you hide this collapse when it finally can't be pushed back any more? 

              A pandemic perhaps, and what is to come in the months ahead.

              I would say we are in the first inning, of what will be a nine inning game, the world has many months of hardship ahead of it.

              -----
              On a completely different topic, it is interesting to see your perspective on Russia and how much of a threat you feel it to be.

              I hadn't taken into consideration that this recent Russia phobia the media has been pushing since Trump's election might have some of its roots outside the US.

              People here in the US don't realize how much the UK influences what occurs in our politics and media. 

              Helps make a little more sense about the incessant hysteria over Russia, while we all but ignore the real threat China.

              1. Nathanville profile image93
                Nathanvilleposted 12 months agoin reply to this

                Well the sky is blue, the birds are singing, and the temperature here in Bristol is 20c (68f): It’s early in the morning, and the first summery day in a week; so I’m back out in the garden to do the summer planting of the crops, and to enjoy the good weather while leisurely doing the other gardening (with the odd pint of beer, and perhaps a ploughman for lunch) in our back garden.

                I was fortunate that I got most of my garden supplies just days before the lockdown (all Garden Centres in the UK are now closed).  The only items I couldn’t get, because it was too early was the tomato plants; but I’ve got plenty of strawberry plants that have multiplied since last year; so I’ll just double my strawberry crop instead of growing tomatoes.

                Therefore, given the change in the weather; I’ve flagged this and other emails to get back to them when I have a spare moment.

                Just as a closing point Ken, with regards to your comments of China vs Russia, we had a similar debate a few years ago when we were discussing propaganda in the News Media. 

                At that time we had opposing views e.g. you didn’t see Russia as a threat, but in your eyes China is.  And conversely, I know Russia is a threat to the UK (Europe) and the west, particularly the UK, as its prime target.  Whereas in recent years China and Europe have built up a good Trading Relationship; not just with goods, but also in exchanging technology, and expertise as well e.g. China is now the world leader in solar panel technology ‘Research and Development.  So quite naturally I do have a different perspective on China than you.

                I’ll be back when I can………………………..

              2. Nathanville profile image93
                Nathanvilleposted 12 months agoin reply to this

                Yep Ken, I know we disagree over Russia and China; we’ve had similar debates in the past.

                No one disputes that China’s economic growth has slowed; but it’s not a depression.  All three links you provide are by right-wing American publications.  And all three publications made predictions of doom and gloom in 2016 or earlier; none of which has come to pass.

                The 2nd link is from 2016, and the 3rd link form 2004.  The article in the 1st link did (at first glance) to be a recent publication e.g. dated 25th June 2019; but on close examination, the date stamp reads “Updated June 25, 2019”, not published.  And on reading the text carefully, all the references to data are for 2015, not 2019.

                Also, although from a macroeconomic aspect, the data as presented is in itself is sound; the Heading of the Article is Propaganda e.g. it clearly suggest that China is in Economic Collapse; whereas, the rest of the article, after the introduction only speculates that in 2015 China’s economy is in imminent risk of collapse.

                However, none of the three articles you present makes the claim that you make that China’s citizens are now so poor that they have to result to eating lower quality food, such as rice made from plastic or rotten rat meat, nor that society has collapsed to the point that newly built apartment complexes are abandoned and crumbling, and new cities are not being populated.  That kind of claim is very synonymous of propaganda and fake news.

                I’m not saying China doesn’t have its problems, any economy where growth slows has problems; but a slowing in growth is not a recession.  And even recessions are not fatal, unless they are deep e.g. 1930’s and 2008.  Albeit a deep recession is something the whole world now faces (including China) because of COVID-19; but that is a separate issue.

                With China transitioning from an Agricultural country to an Industrialised country, there are still rural parts of China where there is still poverty, but their cities are growing and thriving; very much a similar pattern Britain went through in the early part of the 19th century as it transitioned from an agricultural based economy to an Industrialised Nation.

                FYI, in spite of the economic slowdown, China’s economy is thriving, they produce more solar panels than the whole of the rest of the world put together, and as such are the world leader in solar panel technologies; which has benefited which has benefited Britain and the rest of Europe as we make rapid progression away from fossil fuels to Renewable Energies.  Also, Britain, the world leader in solar wind technologies have benefited by sharing our technologies and expertise with China (Export).  Although since around 2012 Britain has been installing new solar wind turbines around its coast at around one new wind turbine per day; China as surpassed us by installing on average two new wind turbines per hour.

                China is also a world leader in electric cars; the car of the future.  So to suggest that their economy is in such a poor state that they have resulted to trading food for oil and gas, as if that is the only Trading they do is an exaggeration; and tantamount to propaganda.  With the Silk Road now fully operational, linking London and the rest of Europe to China by train; there is a healthy Trade link between China, Europe and Britain that is beneficial to all.  In fact, just yesterday 300 ventilators arrived in Britain (for the NHS) from China.

                Your suggestion that the COVID-19 pandemic was a deliberate ploy by China as a way of hiding your allegations of China Economic collapse is nothing short of propaganda and the makings of ‘fake news’

                And FYI, I am not being blinded by Chinese propaganda, or similar British Media propaganda (which you have hinted at in one of your recent posts in this forum).  I do have insider information from our close neighbours (and close friends of ours) who are immigrants from China, and who themselves keep in close contact with their relatives back home; nipping across to China periodically to see their family. 

                Plus, we also get to see a lot of Chinese tourist in Britain, in fact we get far more tourists from China than we do from America; so although we haven’t visited China (albeit our Australian cousins has), we are getting to know and understand the Chinese people from the tourists that visit the UK.

                Chinese tourists make new source of growth for UK:  https://youtu.be/YMvC7xXyb_4

                1. Ken Burgess profile image91
                  Ken Burgessposted 12 months agoin reply to this
                  1. GA Anderson profile image91
                    GA Andersonposted 12 months agoin reply to this

                    Well damn Ken. I was glued to your documentary link, (this one: The new chinese world order - VPRO documentary - 2016  for its full 47 minutes.

                    It provided more than a few very provocative things to think about. Thanks.

                    GA

                  2. Randy Godwin profile image59
                    Randy Godwinposted 12 months agoin reply to this

                    Ken, I've told you about using Youtube to back-up your claims. Try using reputable sources, if you can find them, to support your opinions.

                  3. Nathanville profile image93
                    Nathanvilleposted 12 months agoin reply to this

                    As regards your 5 points, China’s Empty Cities; China’s Crumbling Buildings; China’s Plastic Food; China’s Strong Alliance with Russia and China’s Global Reach:  Having watched your videos I will take each point in turn as follows:-

                    #1:  China’s Empty Cities:  You only have to fact-check this phenomenon on Wikipedia to realise that the News Media have inadvertently misrepresented the facts; and quite understandably so when you understand the full situation.

                    The phenomenon of under-occupied developments in China (often referred to as ‘Ghost Cities’ by the News Media) was first observed in 2006.  The problem with the News Media in the West has been that in its haste to report on developments in China, it has inadvertently resulted in ‘misinformed reporting’ because of a lack of understanding of the Chinese methodology.

                    Firstly, China’s large population guarantees an ongoing demand for housing; and commodity housing is considered a more secure way to store money (value in property). 

                    Also the Chinese are not building to meet current demands like we would in the West; they work on a 20 year timescale.   Many developments criticized as ghost cities in the past did materialize into economically vibrant areas when given enough time to develop, such as Pudong, Zhujiang New Town, Zhengdong New Area, Tianducheng ; most of these so called ghost cities do eventually became occupied, when given enough time.

                    China is only doing what we did in Victorian Britain, but on a grander scale because they have all the modern machinery, whereas back in the 19th century Britain everything had to be done by hand e.g. cheap labour from Ireland.  Nevertheless the Victorians built canals, the railway network, the London Underground, cities sewers, water supply to every home etc., and all at breath-taking speed by today’s standards.  And to this day most of that Victorian engineering, including our sewers and water supplies is still used because it was built to last.

                    #2:  China’s Crumbling Buildings:  The video on this in your link is a fake news video.  The buildings they describe as only three years old are not new buildings as they claim.  They are old buildings waiting for demolition; the big give away being the discoloration on the stone show its age e.g. 99% of buildings in the UK are brick, stone (of all types) and concrete, so I am well familiar with the ageing process of stone buildings.

                    #3:  China’s Plastic Food:  Firstly, China Uncensored (the people making the video).  When you fact check, it appears they're a propaganda channel first and foremost and their main goal appears to be to further the Falun Gong's personal platform (but that’s a separate, controversial  and complex subject).

                    Anyway, the video itself admits that the plastic rice story (that you refer to) “has never been confirmed”; and I think it should be obvious that it is a fake news story.

                    As regards, Fake eggs, so what, we make fake cheese and other fake foods in the West, made in a similar fashion with some foods using similar chemicals; most particularly in the USA e.g. a large number of many American processed food products are illegal in the EU and UK, and many other countries around the world, because they use artificial chemicals (some similar to those listed in the video) that are banned in foods in Europe and the UK because of their toxicity.

                    Also, with reference to the fake rice; the video does state that the Chinese Authorities do have difficulty in enforcing strict ‘food safety standards’; something which I’m sure will change overtime.  Fake flour was common place in Britain during the Victorian era (when we were at the same level of Industrial development that China is today).

                    10 American Foods That Are Already Banned in Other Countries https://youtu.be/JQ_SYqevGi4

                    #4.  China’s Strong Alliance with Russia:  So? They are both communist countries, and therefore will have an akin to each other just as Western Countries feel an akin to each other in our belief of freedom and democracy.  Also, the USA’s Trade wars with China and the EU in recent years is bound to strengthen the relationship with China and Russia.

                    #5.  China’s Global Reach:  Yeah, So?  I watched the video, and it poses no threat to Europe e.g.  The Old Silk Road that extends all the way from China to London, England; allowing quick and easy ‘Trade’ by train between the UK and Europe with China.  It’s something the UK and the EU welcomes, as it benefits us.  But as the video states “The United States feels this is a direct threat to their sphere of influence.”, and as quoted at 35 minutes into the video ““America will try to pin the blame for its own economic problems on China”. 

                    After all, Trump doesn't only have a Trade War with China, he also chose to have a Trade war with the EU; so therefore it should come as no surprise to you that Trump’s Trade wars with the EU and with China is only going to further strengthen ties with China and the EU (and UK).

                    The train that's made the 7,400-mile journey from China to London https://youtu.be/4Y9nfWXywMs

              3. Nathanville profile image93
                Nathanvilleposted 12 months agoin reply to this

                Ken, as posted earlier, I’ve had a busy and productive day in the garden, therefore just catching up on some of the HubPages posts and emails before I call it a day.  Couple of weeks ago (while we had a mild patch of weather) I tidied up the front and back gardens, pruned the trees, burnt all the pruned wood, and emptied all the compost bins.  Today I tidied the greenhouse and prepared the seed beds in the vegetable plot.  Tomorrow, I shall be sowing the first batch of seeds for the summer crops.   So like today, HubPages Forums will take a low priority.

                Anyway, in giving a brief reply to your final point, in your post above e.g. China vs Russia threats to the West:-

                I’m rather sceptical that the UK does have any real influence in American politics or media e.g. Americans don’t seem to have much appetite for a healthcare system more like the NHS, comprehensive labour protection laws or tighter gun controls, just to mention a few.  In fact our two cultures are so different that it’s often difficult to find common ground that we can agree on.

                As regards Russia and China; you view China as the Real threat whereas Brits view Russia as the real threat; and for very good reasons.  Living in Britain, all my life Russia has been a consistent threat here, on many levels e.g. propaganda (misinformation), military and cyber-attacks etc.  From your comment, you see that the Russia threat to Britain is just imaginary; where it is not, the threat is real.  As an example, Russian submarines have on occasions been caught off the Scottish coast, attempting to follow the British nuclear submarine into the deep seas as it leaves the Scottish coast for its six months covert duty, deep under the oceans (where it cannot be tracked) somewhere in the world.  Britain has four nuclear submarines, each carrying up to 40 nuclear warheads, with at least one of the four British nuclear submarines being hidden under the oceans at all times.  So that in the event that Britain is destroyed by the Russians in a nuclear war, the submarine can retaliate.  And the arrangement is that in the event the British Government was to be wiped out by the Russians in a nuclear attack, is that the Authority for the captain of the submarine to take action is already given in a signed and sealed envelope in a sage on board the submarines.

            2. Ken Burgess profile image91
              Ken Burgessposted 12 months agoin reply to this

              I know I responded to this paragraph already, but I had to revisit it after watching this video, watch from 38:20 on, as China is discussed, this is the 'depression' I am talking about.

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlGELg8Ises

              1. Nathanville profile image93
                Nathanvilleposted 12 months agoin reply to this

                Listening to Mike Maloney’s video, as you suggested (I watched the section you referred to and other parts of the video); he’s a showman, putting on a good performance in his videos to plug his books; make his money from his videos and books. 

                His economics sound convincing enough to the average viewer, but it is flawed; I get the impression that he’s mixing economic theories with right-wing political spin.  Apart from the video being five years old, the predictions he made about China’s deflation had the reverse effect to what he claimed e.g. instead of China’s bubble bursting, causing civil unrest within China, because (unlike most of the rest of the world) China still has a fixed Exchange Rate, which allowed them to devalue their currency against the rest of the world in 2015, the effect was not as he predicted but instead it boosted China’s economy by making their exports cheaper, which then had a negative effect not on China, but on the rest of the world.

                This article, from the same time period is far more balanced, and gives a more honest picture of reality as it was at that time:-  https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 … -deflation

    5. Sharlee01 profile image86
      Sharlee01posted 12 months agoin reply to this

      I get your analogy with regard to Capitalism.  However, this should not apply to a National crisis.

      It appears this is a problem of price gouging, pure and simple. Hopefully, the President will address this problem and have those that are gouging penalized by law. President Trump signed an executive order to prevent price gouging, March 23, 2020, which addressed just such hoarding o or price gouging on medical supplies. This order came within days of his request to Governors to try to purchase medical supplies on their own

      ".Trump is authorized under the Defense Production Act to prohibit hoarding of needed resources by designating them as scarce or threatened by people accumulating excessive amounts, Barr said.

      The executive order signed by Trump on Monday gives Health and Human Services (HHS) Secretary Alex Azar the authority to designate certain supplies as critical, meaning those found to be hoarding or price gouging such equipment could face criminal action, Barr said."

      https://thehill.com/homenews/administra … of-medical

      1. peoplepower73 profile image92
        peoplepower73posted 12 months agoin reply to this

        Sharlee:  It is not a matter of hoarding by the users that creates the price gouging.  It is the source companies that are holding out for the best price they can get by having states compete by bidding higher prices.

        In other words, if an N95 mask normally sells for $1.00, the companies are holding out to sell that same mask to the highest state bidder for $5.00.  That is price gouging and free market capitalism at its worst. My point is, if the feds were to control the pricing across all states, they could regulate the price to a fixed reasonable cost for all users. But Trump refuses to do that.

        1. Randy Godwin profile image59
          Randy Godwinposted 12 months agoin reply to this

          This reminds me of the $14.00 peanut butter and jelly sandwiches during Katrina. This when restaurants were offering spaghetti dinners in New Orleans for much less than that. Dubya's cronies made a fortune on the Katrina crisis, as they did on the Iraq invasion. Re Haliburton.

          It's the Republican  business model all over again.

        2. Sharlee01 profile image86
          Sharlee01posted 12 months agoin reply to this

          It looks as if the President's executive order to prevent price gouging was directed at companies to stop price gouging. I have not been able to obtain a copy of the EO.  AG Barr stated "We have received evidence recently. We have already initiated investigations of activities that are disrupting the supply chain and suggestive of hoarding,” Barr said, noting the probes are targeting people hoarding on an “industrial scale” or “manipulating the market” for profit."


          "Stephanie Grisham

          @PressSec
          President @realDonaldTrump just signed an EO to prevent hoarding & price gouging of supplies needed in our war against the #Coronavirus. This sends a strong message – we will not let those hoarding vital supplies & price gougers to harm the health of America in this hour of need."

          https://www.cnn.com/world/live-news/cor … 1fff113fb4

          It seems that the companies that are openly taking bids from states on medical supplies are clearly manipulating the prices of these medical supplies. Instead of selling at a set price, some companies are gouging. I would think these companies could be charged with price gouging due to manipulating the prices in order to make more profits.

          I have not been able to locate the actual EO. It would be interesting to read the full document.

          The problem is clearly with the companies even taking bid at a time of crisis. However, I very much agree the bidding war could have been averted if FEMA did the purchasing at one set price and then distributed the equipment to the states.  Hopefully, the companies caught taking bids on any medical supplies will be penalized.

          1. peoplepower73 profile image92
            peoplepower73posted 12 months agoin reply to this

            Sharlee:  That's all well and good, but it is not just a matter of issuing an executive order.  It's enforcing that order and so far I have not seen any evidence of that.  Here is what HHS says about it.

            https://www.hhs.gov/about/news/2020/03/ … order.html

            1. Sharlee01 profile image86
              Sharlee01posted 12 months agoin reply to this

              I agree I have seen nothing to indicate AG Barr has gone after these companies for taking bids on equipment. Thanks for the link... Very informative.

              1. peoplepower73 profile image92
                peoplepower73posted 12 months agoin reply to this

                Sharlee:  I just found this at the bottom of that order.

                https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files … ention.pdf

                1. Sharlee01 profile image86
                  Sharlee01posted 12 months agoin reply to this

                  It well appears this EO does not cover price gouging. It appears Some of the media has misrepresented the order by implying the ordered covers any businesses.  Not good.  The other day at the president's press conference a reported asked about the fact FEMA was biding alongside Governors for Vents, and the prices were being driven up due to bidding against  FEMA. I have not heard of any solutions to stop this bidding. I felt that EO covered it, I see it does not...  Not good

                  I noted a Phone number... To get further information

                  Bryan Shuy: 202-703-8610 --- Disconnected or not working at this time.

                  1. peoplepower73 profile image92
                    peoplepower73posted 12 months agoin reply to this

                    Sharlee:  Here is Trump's Executive Order to prevent hoarding and of health care equipment...You be the judge and let me know what you think.

                    https://www.federalregister.gov/documen … f-covid-19

    6. Eastward profile image91
      Eastwardposted 12 months agoin reply to this

      Chomsky not only holds that it is capitalism getting in the way (he's quite critical of capitalism under Trump), but that neoliberal capitalism is especially to blame. Overall, he states, that "the distinguishing feature in responses seems not to be democracies vs. autocracies, but functioning vs. dysfunctional societies."

      https://truthout.org/articles/chomsky-v … apitalism/

      1. Ken Burgess profile image91
        Ken Burgessposted 12 months agoin reply to this

        Chomsky the highly intellectual critic that comes up with no solutions.

        1. peoplepower73 profile image92
          peoplepower73posted 12 months agoin reply to this

          Ken Burgess:  He only has no solutions because he is a threat to your values and beliefs.  The solution is to place life above money.

        2. Eastward profile image91
          Eastwardposted 12 months agoin reply to this

          Hopefully participants in the forums (granted we aren't as high-profile as Chomsky) aren't held to the same standard. U.S. politicians don't seem to be in this business either, except to the extent they can use the system to bestow some benefits upon themselves and their elite circles.

          As far as intellectual critics go, we could go with Harari and dismiss both capitalism and socialism as insubstantial steps along the path to our eventual servitude of the technologies we create (given that we don't completely annihilate ourselves with nuclear war or some other turpitude).

          1. peoplepower73 profile image92
            peoplepower73posted 12 months agoin reply to this

            Ken:  What solutions does Trump and his minions have to mitigate the virus?  He operates on gut feel and has a total disdain for science.  This virus doesn't care about his gut feel, other than it could make you vomit if you contracted it.

            Speaking of disdain, I have a total disdain for Trump.  I'm 81 years old and he violates every thing my parents taught me about morality and how to be a good person. I can't even stand to watch him distort facts and broadcast misinformation in his task force addresses.

            Now he wants to relax social distancing for Easter.  That tells me he really doesn't understand what social distancing is about or he doesn't care because he is recommending that to play to his evangelical base.  It's appalling that he would recommended something that would allow the virus to spread like wild fire.

            The only thing he really cares about is protecting his brand and he does it by lying, self aggrandizing, and attacking others who disagree with his twisted view of himself and the world he lives in.

            I feel better now.

            1. Ken Burgess profile image91
              Ken Burgessposted 12 months agoin reply to this

              I'm glad you feel better now, maybe it will help you accept the fact that he IS the President, and there isn't going to be anyone replacing him.

              Not now.

              Not in seven months.

              We are in the beginning stages of a crisis we can't even begin to measure, this is an off the charts disaster in the making, and its global.

              The House Democrats, Schumer, and the MSM that supports them and continues to attack Trump are truly traitors to the Nation at this time.

              Why?

              Because they are still focused on their petty, and currently irrelevant political ideologies and beliefs, their falsehood fabricating and Trump hating.

              This pandemic is going to kill hundreds of thousands, maybe hundreds of millions.

              Civilization is going to collapse, piracy and riots are going to become the norm, throughout the Western world, and even worse is going to happen in the developing nations.

              The global economy is on the brink of collapse, the dollar could become worthless, and when that happens every bank, every business, and every currency the world over becomes insolvent.

              THAT is what we are facing... THAT is what we are slipping toward,  and anyone still attacking the President and playing at politics is just helping us reach that catastrophic outcome.

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9LtPKvoCEo

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1x7QeOzb4g

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9mxpkPEy0Y

              1. tsadjatko profile image64
                tsadjatkoposted 12 months agoin reply to this

                Couldn’t be said any better Ken!

                Thank you.

              2. Sharlee01 profile image86
                Sharlee01posted 12 months agoin reply to this

                Ken, Found an interesting article that chronologized the actions Trump took as he received information fro WHO and CDC.

                I appreciate Trump's daily updates, the updates on what is being done give me a positive feeling that the all is being done. In my opinion, it's time to look at the positive instead of dwelling on the negative.

                https://thefederalist.com/2020/03/31/th … he-danger/

                1. Randy Godwin profile image59
                  Randy Godwinposted 12 months agoin reply to this

                  Here you go, Shar. Why don't you check a site out before you link to it? DOH!  yikes

                  "Coronavirus pandemic misinformation
                  During the coronavirus pandemic, The Federalist published numerous pieces that contained false information or information that was contrary to the recommendations of public health experts and authorities.[26] The Federalist published articles denouncing social distancing, as well as articles claiming that fears over the coronavirus pandemic had been overhyped by the Democratic Party and the media. The Federalist co-founder Sean Davis said that Democrats were intentionally trying to "destroy the economy" as a “last-ditch 2020 play”, and that "All they care about is power. And if they have to destroy your life and business to get power back, they will." The Federalist published articles calling on the government to quickly end social distancing directions, and to open businesses again.[26] The Federalist co-founder Ben Domenech attacked a prominent Imperial College analysis which estimated the loss of life due to the coronavirus pandemic; Domenech attacked the analysis for revising its figures downward, but the only reason that the analysis did so was that the analysis incorporated the social distancing and shutdown strategies that had increasingly been implemented.[27]

                  It published a piece by someone identified as a physician in Oregon who recommended that people hold "chickenpox"-style parties for the coronavirus to build herd immunity, but the recommendations were contrary to those of public health experts, and the author in question did not have a medical license and had worked as a businessman for decades.[26][28][29] At the time, experts warned that the number of new infections should be kept down so as to not overburden the health care system.[30] The Federalist was subsequently temporarily suspended from Twitter because the website used the Twitter platform to promote fringe ideas that contradicted public health experts and were harmful to public health.[29] Reddit also removed links to The Federalist article on its platform.[31]"


                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Federalist_(website)

                  1. tsadjatko profile image64
                    tsadjatkoposted 12 months agoin reply to this

                    And Randy’s idea of a reputable site is Wikipedia? LOL

                    https://connorsstate.edu/disted/wikipedia/

                  2. Sharlee01 profile image86
                    Sharlee01posted 12 months agoin reply to this

                    I wanted a factual timeline this author gave one. I have verified the dates. Here are just a few other references with the same timeline. I wanted to prove how quickly Trump went into action, the dates say it all. I was not looking for Trump tweets or his opinion statements only what he
                    initiated to problem solve.


                    https://www.brookings.edu/research/the- … nd-themes/

                    https://www.businessinsider.com/coronav … nts-2020-3

                    https://www.donaldjtrump.com/media/time … ronavirus/

                2. Ken Burgess profile image91
                  Ken Burgessposted 12 months agoin reply to this

                  Yes Shar, any amount of objective research will show that Trump was acting while the Democrats (and WHO) were blasting him for acting to protect America from the virus.

                  And now they are trying to say he didn't act fast enough, there are no "aha-gotcha!" moments anymore... from the Russian Conspiracy to the Corona Investigation it has been one long string of Democrat ineptness and corruption and falsehoods and fabrications.

                  You really have to be living in an alternate reality (one CNN will happily create for you, MSNBC as well) to have any faith in the Democrats in DC anymore.

                  1. tsadjatko profile image64
                    tsadjatkoposted 12 months agoin reply to this

                    Yeah, remember this: Dr. Fauci Said Coronavirus ‘is not a major threat to the people of the United States’

                    https://youtu.be/ooZdq9qHNg8

                    Is the media on Fauci’s back for that? The advice he obviously had to be giving Trump who relies on his advisers to give him accurate advice?

                  2. Sharlee01 profile image86
                    Sharlee01posted 12 months agoin reply to this

                    You are correct it is apparent to me that there is a segment of the population that will not view facts as facts. It matters little what actually was done how quickly it was done. What they see is Trump did it, and that makes anything he did BAD...  President Trump could not have acted faster or been more organized at solving every problem that has cropped up. I would shudder to think what would have happened with any other president at the helm. He is doing a wonderful job.

                    WHO needs to be investigated, and China needs to financially pay for what money our Government has spent on fighting this virus.

                    Between me and you. The Dems have made such fools of themselves I find after each of their aha-gotcha's that I feel they could not possibly maker bigger fools of themselves. But, then they do.

                  3. Randy Godwin profile image59
                    Randy Godwinposted 12 months agoin reply to this

                    You forgot Fox News, Ken. Or do you agree with their opinions?

              3. Eastward profile image91
                Eastwardposted 12 months agoin reply to this

                I'd agree it isn't very productive to hyper-focus on political differences and spilled milk for the time being. Trump is the President and has authority, but whether on his own or in coordination with his advisers, he certainly is responsible for failing to act soon enough and aggressively enough. This Snopes article is fair at taking the oft-circulated timeline of his comments and expanding them into their surrounding context:
                https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/timel … responses/

                Now isn't the time to play the blame game, assuming we make it through this, it will be time to hold our leadership accountable for this horrific failure and the countless deaths that could have and should have been prevented. It'll likely take decades to determine what that number is (approximately).

                We need to place a lot more faith in the scientists and medical professionals, and pressure our politicians to follow their expertise and lead. Politicians need to serve as communicators of the appropriate messages, from the experts. They need to communicate the truth to the public to try and help as many people as possible.

                It's mad that there still isn't a countrywide mandatory quarantine and that Wisconsin is even continuing on with in-person voting at the polls. It seems inept decision-making is continuing, with politicians on both sides of the aisle fueling the worst.

      2. peoplepower73 profile image92
        peoplepower73posted 12 months agoin reply to this

        Eastward:  Thank you so much for that article.  I think Noam Chomsky is right on. The march of capitalism to place money above everything else has been going on for years and is very insidious, except when it raises it's ugly head in the form of a global pandemic. 

        Everybody should read that article, even though it is long. It makes sense to those who have an open mind and have seen what neoliberal capitalism has done to not only our country, but to many others as well.

    7. profile image61
      hammerbillposted 12 months agoin reply to this

      Socialism, it's little brother, modern Liberalism and it's big brother-Communism, are all forms of government that rely on the imperfections of capitalism to justify their existence.  While capitalism is, indeed, the optimum monetary system for a government, it cannot be perfect in an imperfect world.  Statists heckle it at every opportunity-usually citing coincidental but largely irrelevant disruptions to the system as evidence it doesn't work.  Is your population ridiculously obese and hooked on opioids causing a shortage of medical care in a supply and demand crisis?  Blame capitalistic health care-not obesity.  Is your government printing up and handing out trillions to corporations (Obama bailouts)?  Call that capitalism-then criticize free markets.  Etc.
      The problems America faces cannot be solved collectively.  Americans have been so conditioned to look to government for solutions, have accepted massive debt in lieu of saving money, and have become so sloppy with health that simply collectivizing a problematic people is no solution.  It's just rearranging the problem.  The people are ripe for heckling by Socialists that promise a solution they can't deliver either, but like Obama Care-which promised to fix our health care system only to have Liberals once again ten years later saying millions can't get health care, Socialist plans simply won't ever be held accountable for failure even as they spend trillions trying to, that won't ever be recovered.  And by the way, capitalism is not Socialism's doctor either.  It's a system of prevention, not cure.  Once that first fiat dollar is printed, the slippery slope has begun.  Yes, you are in an arcane way correct: capitalism cannot help us now.  Government involvement in the means of production and wealth redistribution has damaged us beyond repair.  But the caveat is now that Socialism won't work either.  As long as it can take longer to try and there is no means to hold the officials who try it accountable for its ultimate failure (usually due to the passage of time), deluded and desperate people will no doubt fall for its empty promises.

  2. Readmikenow profile image98
    Readmikenowposted 12 months ago

    Anybody who believes in socialism has never lived under socialism.  I visited my relatives in the Ukraine for the first time in 1970s when I was a teenager.   At that time, it was part of the USSR. I could tell you so many stores from that trip as well as what I heard from my relatives who lived there.

    You people who think socialism is so great have no idea what you are talking about.  I say spend some time living in Venezuela or North Korea or other places where the government controls the means of production.  That is socialism, the government controlling the means of productions.

    European countries are not socialist countries, as most western Europeans are not.  ALL of them have many elements of capitalism in their economic structure.  More than one Scandinavian leader has said capitalism is the fuel the runs their social programs.

    1. peoplepower73 profile image92
      peoplepower73posted 12 months agoin reply to this

      Readmikenow:  The socialism I'm talking about is not communism.  It is the Federal government taking a leadership role in this crisis, instead of having the states fend for themselves and put more lives at risk.  I'm not going to go into a big long litany of about socialized health care would be more efficient than having the states compete against each other for health care resources. But here is an example of what they are forced to do.

      https://boston.cbslocal.com/2020/04/02/ … -politico/

      1. Readmikenow profile image98
        Readmikenowposted 12 months agoin reply to this

        You don't know what socialism is at all.  I don't know how to deal with people like you who believe you have a point but lack the understanding of the concept of socialism.  It is NOT based on individual interpretations. 

        "The socialism I'm talking about is not communism.  It is the Federal government taking a leadership role in this crisis, instead of having the states fend for themselves and put more lives at risk."

        Only God above knows what that means.  It has NOTHING to do with socialism. 

        If you don't believe me here is a definition of it from the Merriam Webster dictionary.

        "Definition of socialism
        1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
        2a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
        b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
        3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done."

        Truly, you need to study some more political science.  I believe you have no idea what life is like for people who live under a socialist state. 

        Here is a good article on the difference between Socialism and Communism.  They have similar goals.

        "Marxism emerged in this milieu. Engels called it "scientific socialism" to distinguish it from the "feudal," "petty-bourgeois," "German," "conservative," and "critical-utopian" strains the Communist Manifesto singled out for criticism. Socialism was a diffuse bundle of competing ideologies in its early days, and it stayed that way. Part of the reason is that the first chancellor of newly unified Germany, Otto von Bismarck, stole the socialists' thunder when he implemented a number of their policies. Bismarck was no friend to socialist ideologues, whom he called "enemies of the Reich," but he created the West's first welfare state and implemented universal male suffrage in order to head off the left's ideological challenge."

        https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answer … ialism.asp

        1. peoplepower73 profile image92
          peoplepower73posted 12 months agoin reply to this

          Readmikenow:  This is from your link:

          "Socialists can be pro- or anti-market. They may consider the ultimate goal to be a revolution and the abolition of social classes, or they may seek more pragmatic outcomes: universal healthcare, for example, or a universal pension scheme. Social Security is a socialist policy that has been adopted in the unabashedly capitalist United States (as are the eight-hour working day, free public education, and arguably universal suffrage). Socialists may run for election, forming coalitions with non-socialist parties, as they do in Europe, or they may govern as authoritarians, as the Chavista regime does in Venezuela."

          I can appreciate your experience and your relatives living in the Ukraine under communist rule.  But as stated above in your link, there are many forms of socialism.  And the form that we use in America is not communism.  Neither is Bernie Sanders' Democratic Socialism.  The means of production is not controlled and owned by the state (the federal government).

          Again, what I'm concerned about is having the states bid for health care products.  They should be a regulated fix cost, controlled by the federal government.  Price gouging is a manifestation of  capitalism, not socialism.

          Trump has called himself the wartime president and has invoked the Defense Production Act (DPA).  And he has asked GM and other companies to make ventilators and other health care products.  Yes, that is a form of socialism, but I see that as no different than car manufactures building bombers and tanks during WWII. They were on contract to the government and were paid by the government. As a matter of fact, that is what a military is.  It is a socialist organization, just like defense contractors.

          Some people in this country are stuck in the cold war period when communism was a threat to our way of life and every time they hear the word socialism, they freak out and immediately equate it to communism of the 50's and 60's.

          As stated above by your link, there are many forms of socialism that are not like the USSR communism. And there are forms of capitalism that exploit people and organizations, like price gouging and that is what this forum is about.

          1. wilderness profile image97
            wildernessposted 12 months agoin reply to this

            Our government (or nearly all governments, for that matter) are not competent to set prices.

            They either take kickbacks and set prices so companies make huge profits or they set prices so low the company cannot survive in order to placate the populace.  In more simple terms, governments are not concerned with reality and costs, just their own pocketbooks and the votes of the people (in our system of government).

            As just one example, consider the price of power in California.  Regulated and set by the state, it is so low as to prohibit proper maintenance of the distribution system...with the result that half the state burned down from fires caused by that distribution system.  And then the people blame the power company for not having the money to do proper maintenance!

            1. peoplepower73 profile image92
              peoplepower73posted 12 months agoin reply to this

              Wilderness: So you think it is better to have state governors competing with each other and source companies for health care products than to have fixed price control?

              I don't know how old you are, but I remember during WWII, we had rationing that was controlled  by the government.  We had coupons for gas, food, clothes, and other commodities.  It was war time, just like this is war time.  What is missing now is competent leadership to regulate the procurement and distribution of these products to the states on an as needed basis.

              So you think it is better to use capitalism to sacrifice the lives of people, just because you think the government is corrupt?  The government is corrupt, because the leadership at the top is not only corrupt, but incompetent to manage this war time crisis.

              You are right about one thing and that is Trump's main focus is about getting votes to get re-elected and protecting his image and his brand.  He will do that no matter what the costs is to the people, financially and to their lives.

          2. Readmikenow profile image98
            Readmikenowposted 12 months agoin reply to this

            "I can appreciate your experience and your relatives living in the Ukraine under communist rule."

            I don't think you can.  Unless you've lived that way or have relatives who lived that way, or even seen it for yourself, you have no appreciation of that it means.  As I said before, I could tell you many stories.

            I agree there are many ways to be a socialist.  That is like saying there are many ways to play the game of football.  They all have one thing is common, a football.  All of socialism has one thing in common, control of a country's means of production.  Communism does it with an authoritarian approach, socialism tries to achieve its goals of control by working within an established system.  It's the same house with different colors.  Socialism is curable, communism is terminal.

            I don't know what to say when people believe socialism is based on how a government uses its resources.  In western Europe, they have many more social programs based on using their resources obtained by a capitalist economic system.  I could get into the former soviet countries and their brands of socialism, but lets just say none of them are doing as good as if they would embrace total capitalism of their economies.  Nothing generates income for a nation like capitalism.  If they use only some of it or all of it, socialism is not even close to being able to meet the economic needs of a nation. This has been proven many times.

            1. tsadjatko profile image64
              tsadjatkoposted 12 months agoin reply to this

              Well said Mike. I think you would agree with this article I found, Socialism: The Opiate of the Corrupt and Ignorant

              https://economics21.org/socialism-opiat … -calomiris

              1. Readmikenow profile image98
                Readmikenowposted 12 months agoin reply to this

                Tsadjatko, Excellent article!

                Here is the part I would wonder if those on the left are able to comprehend.

                "Not only has socialist theory been wrong about the economic and political fruits of capitalism, it failed to see the problems that arise in socialist governments. Socialism’s record has been pain, not gain, especially for the poor. Socialism produced mass starvation in eastern Europe and China, as it undermined the ability of farmers to grow and market their crops. In less extreme incarnations, such as the UK in the decades after World War II and before Margaret Thatcher, it stunted growth. In most cases, socialism’s monopoly on economic control also fomented corruption by government officials, as was especially apparent in Latin American and African socialist regimes."

                1. tsadjatko profile image64
                  tsadjatkoposted 12 months agoin reply to this

                  Nothing difficult to understand about that, which makes one wonder whether those on the left have inhibited or arrested comprehension or just choose to embrace evil.

              2. Nathanville profile image93
                Nathanvilleposted 12 months agoin reply to this

                I love the way so many Americans not only run scared of Socialism, but consistently lump it all together with communism; as if all forms of Socialism was synonymous with communism. 

                FYI:  The Article you reference and link to in your comment is published by Economics21; Economics21 is a political right-wing conservative American Institute, and therefore by its very nature natural biased against Socialisms.

                The Economic21 Institute’s research seeks to develop and promote ‘free-market’ ideas, and therefore quite naturally is biased against Socialisms.

                In that article the Economic21 Institute quotes the CEA in its study “The Opportunity Cost of Socialism” as showing:-

                “…that the socialist approach to “single payer” health care advocated by many on the left would cost much more and deliver much less….”

                However, if you actually read the full report by the CEA (which in itself is naturally biased against Socialism, because it’s written by a right-wing Administration for a right-wing Administration); the CEA report makes four references to “single payer” (three relating to healthcare) but it does not actually state what the Economic21 Institute claims it says. 

                The additional text surrounding the statement the E21 falsely claims the CEA makes is tantamount to propaganda.

                Furthermore, it is an unfounded statement as the NHS (National Health Service) in Britain is testimony to the fact that a Socialist Healthcare System can be run cheaply and efficiently, while providing a high level of healthcare to all, free at the point of use.

                In fact the NHS is one of the cheapest healthcare systems in the world, costing the average tax payer just $2,000 per year; which is a lot less than most Americans pay for their health Insurance.

                The National Health Service explained https://youtu.be/bDdZCv5v2Rg

                1. tsadjatko profile image64
                  tsadjatkoposted 12 months agoin reply to this

                  So in a nut shell your answer isn’t to specifically refute any one point made in the article but to shoot the messenger.

                  The predictable left wing tactic employed whenever their brainwashed mind is left with no way to reject the truth and they can’t possibly indoctrinate anyone in the face of it.

                  So they must shoot the messenger which also is how socialists keep power, kill, lock up, or censor their opposition.

                  1. Nathanville profile image93
                    Nathanvilleposted 12 months agoin reply to this

                    Nope, I know from reading your comments that there is no point whatsoever even trying to sensibly debate the issue with you; because you are nothing but aggressive and dismissive towards anyone who disagrees with you.

                    For example, contrary to your rebuff that I didn't "specifically refute any one point made in the article"; I did specifically rebuff the claim that "the socialist approach to “single payer” health care advocated by many on the left would cost much more and deliver much less" Specifically by giving the NHS as evidence that the claim made in the report is incorrect.

                    Beside, I was born, and live, in a country where Socialism is an intricate part of our daily Social and Cultural and Political life; and I have nothing to fear from it:  I see the benefits of it everyday.

                    The latest example of the NHS (Paid for by the Government) and free at the point of use for ALL (True Socialism) is the building and equipping of a 4,000 bed hospital in just 9 days (one of just 3 being built in Britain) to tackle COVID-19; the largest such hospital of its kind in the world.

                    Coronavirus: Prince Charles opens NHS Nightingale hospital https://youtu.be/mZz0OlEx-1Q

        2. profile image61
          hammerbillposted 12 months agoin reply to this

          It’s not like governments are static.  Didn’t Marx say Socialism is merely part of the road to Communism?  Was he wrong?  Part of the irony of it all is that Communism can’t even exist anyway, so of course you aren’t referring to it.  What we refer to is the disaster that always results when the futile efforts to divert attention from real solutions to problems-which can only happen on an individualistic level, eventually get escalated as far up collectively as possible.  Escalating problems to ever increasing levels of government is never a permanent solution.  It’s a diversion, a kicking of the can.  Cultures of people who save money or develop strong family ties as for emergencies, like Japanese, don’t do this because of the state.  They are more prepared because of culture or individual choice.  Americans borrow until they can borrow no more then blame capitalism for not taking care of them.  Sad.  With all Socialism’s failures you always hear “that really wasn’t Socialism”.  Nobody every says you need to keep tweaking fascism til you get it right.

  3. Wesman Todd Shaw profile image93
    Wesman Todd Shawposted 12 months ago

    Why is it no surprise the old man who wants to take everyone's guns so they can be at the mercy of criminals is also a person pushing a toxic economics agenda based entirely in covetousness?

    I can't say I'm surprised. Once you hate people enough to where you believe taking power away from the common man is a good thing, you simply hate people enough to want them to suffer under the hellishness of socialism.

    Why do you hate humanity? Nah, I don't think I care to hear the ridiculous reply.

  4. hard sun profile image83
    hard sunposted 12 months ago

    Spain UBI:

    "While the immediate goal of the program will be to provide relief to families that have lost income due to virus-related lockdowns, the country is developing it with an eye toward making it a resource "that stays forever, that becomes a structural instrument, a permanent instrument," she said, according to Bloomberg."

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics … r-BB12dYJr

    Just throwing this out there as it relates to the topic. I also remember a recent discussion where it was debated as to whether Europe had altogether abandoned the idea of UBI. Mr. Yang is not a crackpot, he is a realist.

  5. wmhoward4 profile image76
    wmhoward4posted 12 months ago

    The bailout is not due to a failure of Capitalism it is from a virus that started in a Communist state. The measures applied are not pure Socialism they are more like the theories of John Marnard Keynes.

    The real question is if you think Socialism is so great, does this mean you are OK with the 100 million people murdered for Socialism in the 20th Century? And is it OK that Socialism did NOT save Venezuela and people are starving and being shot?

    Communism and Socialism kills more people than any virus ever will.

 
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