Will Biden's Party choose to keep him out of the debates rather than have him go through the rigors of elucidating his public policy proposals, etc., in a formal debate against Trump, in lieu of recent polls in which up to 55% of Democrat voters believe Joe Biden may be in the early stages of dementia?
The way Trump has done the job, I would think that there is evidence of a more advanced stage of dementia in action, here and now.
Trump has to defend the current state of the economy and his management of pandemic issue, it going to be hard to get Joe too much off balance in the face of Trump's desperate explanations or lack there of.
An interesting deflection, Credence, but one which has no basis in reality. No offense.
None taken. Great, Trump is not exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer and Biden was more than acceptable during his debates with other Democratic contenders.
We will see.....
In 2012, Biden came off as as alpha male when debating Ryan. He interrupted constantly, laughed and mocked frequently. He was a real jerk, but it worked for him.
But that was then and this is now. Today, Biden has trouble remembering the question... which is why the media handles him with kid gloves.
I reject your premise that Trump isn't sharp. In fact, he is very sharp and very shrewd. He retains information exceedingly well and makes very good decisions based upon all the resources at his disposal as well as his own substantial knowledge about business and the market. Furthermore, Trump has excellent instincts. In 2016, he knocked off all of the Republican contenders, one by one.... and there were many of them, most of whom were seasoned politicians. Finally, he knocked over the heir apparent --- self appointed, Queen Hillary herself. She still hasn't gotten over it. No Credence, a dumb person could not have accomplished that.
I could list all of Trump's accomplishments since becoming President, as well as all of the promises he has kept to the American people, but I'll save that for another listener one day.
Agreed, and personally (just IMO) I literally can't believe anyone would vote for such an obviously corrupt and at this point dementia ridden person.
If a man can't even debate, he has no business being president of the United States of America. Period. The American people deserve three solid debates, in person, six feet apart. That's safe.
I go to work every day and Biden can't even come out of his basement? What the hell.
You may want to realize Biden will be finally asked what he would have done differently in this crisis. Joe was very much against stopping air travel from China... If Trump had not done that we could have added many more deaths to our toll.
The current state of the economy --- well this would seem a moot point. No one could have predicted this pandemic or handled the crashing economy. Plus, Trump's economy speaks for itself pre-pandemic. It was the best we have had in our history. Many analysts say the economy will recover very quickly, it's just there waiting to be initiated. One never knows. I have never witnessed Trump showing signs of dementia.
At the same time Trump was stopping travel from China, Pelosi and Schumer were adamant that borders be kept open, which would have effectively killed many more people had the president listened to them.
Agreed.... Trump has never shown any signs of dementia. I had forgotten that Credence made that odd assertion.
Credence meant that his often-crazed behaviour was "demented" not that he suffered from the disease, though she did cloud her intent somewhat by using the term "dementia."
I don't think so. He said, "The way Trump has done the job, I would think that there is evidence of a more advanced stage of dementia in action, here and now."
I disagree that Trump's behavior is "crazed." You have to remember, Trump does not have an elitist mentality, not is he a smooth politician who talks out of both sides of his mouth as Obama did so well.
He is a longtime builder who grew up in Queens and worked in Brooklyn. Builders from Brooklyn or anywhere, if they are successful, are not dainty. They say what they mean and they ruffle feathers. They have a job to do and they don't mince words. That does not mean he cannot govern well. In fact, he has created more wealth and growth in this economy than any other president, not just for higher income Americans, but for middle class and lower class Americans across the board. Obama decimated manufacturing. Trump brought it back. He has done so much for the black community, you would not even believe. But you never hear this from mainstream media because they are in bed with the Democrats. The swamp is long and deep, my friend. If you only knew.
Yea, Savvy, Moonfroth is correct, his interpretation of the intent of my message is the appropriate one.
Trump does not have an arrogant and elitist attitude? I have some beach front property in Colorado to sell you, interested? He is a liar, floorflusher, chiseler, narcissistic, irresponsible and dishonest at his core. We on the left and many independents that can now see the light are going to escort him out from the White House on January 21, 2021.
But we will wait and see....
You may buy into so called the Trump miracle, but me and millions of others beg to differ and we will make that evident this coming November.
Why does the Rightwingers always accuse the press of being against them as if they and their policies are to be immune from criticism, naturally?
Cred, isn’t the question whether or not there will be Presidential debates?
Trump isn’t any of those things, maybe a little cocky at times, but the left has convinced themselves that he is all those things and worse. In the meantime...while ya’ll weren’t looking, caught up in hating on Trump, your Party has been hijacked. Maybe you are all for the U.S. looking more like China. What does Joe think? Gosh we need debates!
Yes, AB, we need debates and I am chomping at the bit.....
Well, Joe Biden has said, "China's not that bad, folks." Wonder what is going through the mind of XI Jinping, President of the People's Republic of China, right about now?
Let's face it, Biden is not a leader in any way, and he simply cannot go toe to toe with President XI. No way, especially now.
Joe is in no way beholden to China, despite the 1.5 billion they invested into his son's financial Investment firm.
I rather like being called "Savvy" which was my original pen name here at Hubpages. That all ended when someone asked me to give them a real name.... as if I were trying to hide something. (sigh). So thank you for the fond memories, Credence.
Over 35+ years ago... or so, a liberal professor, who was convinced the media and all of academia was fair and balanced, decided to do a meta analysis of news media and academic publications--- to determine just how balanced they truly are with regard to politics. He was utterly confident that both sides of the political spectrum were well represented and that no bias existed. To his utter shock and dismay, he discovered that the media and academia did indeed favor the left by approximately 95% or more.
So, it turns out that "Rightwingers" are not making accusations; rather, we are stating a fact which most people either do not know or choose to ignore.
Furthermore, we do not believe our policies are immune from criticism. However, we do believe our policies are best suited to safeguard our freedom and guard against tyranny.
I believe this is an important time for all Americans to read the Federalist Papers.
Thank you for commenting.
". . . we do believe our policies are best suited to safeguard our freedom and guard against tyranny."
Liberals like to say Conservatives are against all change, but the truth is that we are only against radial unreasoned change.
As to your "handle", you are welcome.
In the face of overwhelming approval from academia and the press, what makes the Right, who I consider the very foundation of intolerance and authoritarianism, the keeper of the flame of freedom and the last line of defense against tyranny? That is not the way I see things, as it is a matter of opinion.
The voters will be the ultimate decision makers as to whose policies are "best suited", I am willing to defer to them. After all, I had to live with Trump over the last 3 years.
So, why is the Right always being "picked on" and is considered the ogre by virtually everbody except Rush Limbaugh and Alex Jones? If the Right's principles are so noble it would seem natural that the GOP and Trump would be the natural choice of us all next November, and you would have nothing to fear regarding the outcome.
Credence..... You stated, "In the face of overwhelming approval from academia and the press, what makes the Right, who I consider the very foundation of intolerance and authoritarianism, the keeper of the flame of freedom and the last line of defense against tyranny?"
I take it you mean "overwhelming approval" from the Left. I look forward to responding to your question..
I am not fearful. I was. Now I have peace, strangely. I credit the Almighty for taking the fear away.
I'll get back to you as soon as I can. Appreciate the relevant question.
A 95%+ bias toward anything does not make that “something” better or good. A bias is a prejudice; It is a personal judgement which is usually without reason. Your intimation seems to be that media and academia, etc., which is controlled by the Left, must be correct and thus reliable, given their overwhelmingly large presence of 95%+. That not so subtle indication is absurd on its face. There are two sides of a coin and both sides must be heard in a fair and decent society. Only then can we determine truths.
When half of the population is denied a voice in academia, media, and even corporate America, we have a problem. That 95%+ does not have the moral authority to tell me or anyone how to live my life or determine what is true and what is false, even though they believe they do. Nor do they have the right to use various shades of intimidation tactics to secure their 95+% control over every aspect of American life. And I am speaking here about the Left, who have taken it upon themselves to impose their views on the population at large. Meanwhile, their performance in Democratically run cities continues to be dismal despite the millions of dollars Congress throws at them for every social ill imaginable under the sun. Any entity, such as media, academia, and Congress, who suppress dissenting voices and determine to stifle half the population is a threat to freedom and will never have my confidence or my vote.
George Washington famously said, “If freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter.”
But to answer your question, the Right is certainly not perfect, but Conservatives have a more “constrained” vision of America, that is to say, we respect the rule of law, we strive to uphold the Constitution, we learn from history, we respect facts over emotional bias. We remember why our founding Father created this great nation in the first place. We remember what tyranny looks like and we battle against it. We see how the Left is tearing America down from within. Conservatives are fighting back, but it is an uphill battle. The swamp is wide and deep and half of America has no clue…. and why would they. Media, academia, and the Democrats in Congress have a powerful propaganda machine and they have used it effectively. Those outside of America, except the dictators who fear our military, which Obama decimated and which Trump, thankfully has built back, have no idea.
I understand that progressives believe they can create Utopia, a heaven on earth, by tearing down the entire system, by whatever means necessary…. And that the end justifies the means. They are wrong. That is where tyranny begins, and it is happening in America now.
You have to ask yourself why the media is controlled by the left, after all those that own and control it are part of the corporate class, our adversaries.
So, why is your 5 percent to be considered gospel?
Conservative seem to say that their ideas are being kept out. You have as much access to the airwaves as anybody. You got your brietbart, Alex Jones and Fox News. Trump won the last time, regardless of complaints about liberal media. Do you think rightwing ideas would be accepted by the masses?
How have the left imposed their views on the rest, elaborate, please.
What is this Democrat party run city stuff? Progressive and educated people more than often vote Democratic and a proponderance of those live in urban centers. I would like to find out how many cities in the top 20 in population are run by Republican mayors. I will check this out. So, it comes down to the "rural" verses progressives.
Your half of the population did pretty well, you got Trump, didn't you?
You say constrained view, every effort to open the democracy to more diverse populations came from liberals and was not the product of constrained conservatives. If you folks had you way, I would be still in chains. This thing about states rights, infinitesimally tardy acceptable change, etc, would have assured that.
What you consider tearing down, I consider the needed changes as such to allow the American experiment to continue. Many of us do not subscribe to your views as much of it sounds like a standard conservative boilerplate.
You have your own propaganda machines, so it's not just the Left.
More rubbish about Obama and the love conservatives have about profligate military spending?
We can't create utopia but we can work toward a fairer more just society, which obviously conservatives want to avoid as they want the status quo and its inequities to continue, unchallenged. So, I will continue to use my efforts to decimate the Right to preclude such an outcome.
We are going to recover from Trump and the Republicans, that for me is the beginning of healing.
Sigh.... You ask a lot of questions, primarily as a deflection, it would seem... and we all give pertinent answers, but we cannot write a book for you.
I have yet to hear your solutions. What are they?
How will Joe Biden and the Democrats bring about a more "just society?"
Do you really believe BLM and Antifa are the answers to your problems?
How did that work out for the Black Panthers, all of whom ended up living in exile or in prison?
Hatred of America is not the solution. You are free. America has already provided all the tools for anyone to live happily, including you.
Most conservative diatribe is bullshyte, Savvy. Sorry, no deflection intended.
My solutions are many of those proposed by Senator Warren in her campaign, or at least movement in that direction.
BLM and Antifa may not be the solution, but they make this society focus and keep the grievances from being ignored as they have been for so long.
I am for the Panthers, do you know anything about them before you speak?
They began in Oakland confronting police who were abusive to the residents there in the mid 1960s. Funny how history repeats itself. They intimidated everyone by exercising their 2nd Amendment rights which white folks are so adamant about protecting now. Govenor Reagan wanted to restrict their right to carry at the time
They spoke of self reliance and uplifting concepts for the Black community, but the powers that be did not really want black self empowerment as it was seen as a threat to the societal order.
I want that freedom to be all the more inclusive over wider areas of American life, of course the conservatives are opposed as from their perspective, "there must an order in things".
As a result, J. Edgar Hoover had authorized harassment and murder of those that were prominent in the movement. Yes, many were jailed, and of those that committed criminal offenses, I do not excuse.
The first laboratory-confirmed case of COVID-19 in the United States was confirmed on January 20, 2020, and reported to CDC on January 22, 2020. "Until now, the first US fatality from the pandemic coronavirus was assumed to be in the Seattle area on Feb 28, but postmortem testing on deaths from Feb 6 and Feb 17 now confirm that COVID-19 was spreading in the San Francisco Bay area weeks earlier than previously thought."https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/04/coroner-first-us-covid-19-death-occurred-early-february
As you see Nancy was more than willing to ignore the virus as late as Feb 24... Yet she has made claims Trump ignored the virus, and did not act quickly enough to stop the spread.
Feb 24th Nancy in China Town.
Now Ladies, we aren't supposed to bring up those FACTS, we are supposed to go along with the revised version. Nancy and Company never ignored the virus, she was never in China Town. They never repeated over and over that the travel ban was only because Trump is racist and xenophobic. We MUST get woke to the program!
Thank you for the additional, relevant information.
"Hard to get Joe off balance"
Have you been following "Joe's Basement Blunders?"
I realize he is you are fully supporting Joe and this your right. A bit ago we were discussing Joe's mentation, and also my view that Biden is innately a racist. I offered a Biden quote in regard to him claiming he takes cognitive tests frequently. Well.....
07/02/20 "At the very end of the question-and-answer session, asked by a reporter if he had been tested for “cognitive decline,” he answered, “I’ve been tested. I’ve been tested constantly.” Biden went on to say he could “hardly wait to compare my cognitive capability to the cognitive capability of the man I’m running against.”
https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/50 … rs-need-to
-- Aug 5, 2020, Today Joe Biden goes live from his basement... Just hours ago Biden says he HASN'T taken a cognitive test: Quote "Why the hell would I take a test?" He also said to the black commentator "Come on man that's like asking you before you came on this program are you on Cocaine? Pause Are you a junkie"?... Seems he in some way he associated being a Black man with cocaine, and being a junkie.
So, did Joe lie about being tested constantly for his cognitive skills in that July 2 interview, or was he being truthful about never taking a cognitive test, or is he having problems with the onset of dementia? Is Joe showing his racist nature bringing up cocaine, and asking a black man if he is "a junkie"?
Interestingly enough shortly after this morning's live show, the DNC announced Joe Biden will no longer travel to Milwaukee to accept Democratic nomination.
Perhaps they should have locked down Joe's PC... Locking him in the basement just won't do the trick. The DNC better come up with something quick to get him out of the debates.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-cogn … ke-a-test/
Sharlee, Biden was not my first choice as he bring too many of his own issues of concern to the table, when I rather not deal with distractions from the goal of removing Trump. But, I loathe Trump as Satan, incarnate. I really don't know how this going to turn out, but am I reflexively against Trump and the Republicans and must vote accordingly.
We will see about relative cognitive abilities once these men are on the debate stage.
I can see you are very sure of your candidate, and I do understand your hate for Trump. It's been well seeded by the media. Just thought although we will hold our noses you may want to be able to see a few of his flaws the general media will not inform you of. Because at some point you may have to depend on a man that has some glaring problems. However, I got the hint, no more negatives on Joe. Maybe you won't have to hear anything much on the man, he is certainly hiding out...You will hold your nose as well as hear no evil or see no evil. A great way to choose a president...
And yes, I do think his dementia problem will be obvious if he debates Trump. We will be able to see for ourselves. Perhaps due to your mind being well made up, you should not watch. That way if Joe folds, you need not consider his mentation. If its just a vote cast due to hate of the other candidate, you should vote early, and enjoy the rest of the circus worry-free.
That's what I will be doing. Just over the crazy at this point.
I don't like the word hate, let's just say that Trump is my least favorite President who has served within my lifetime, and with the noted exception of Andrew Johnson, my least favorite among those that have served before my time to the extent that I am familiar with their records.
To show that my dislike of the Republicans and Trump is more than just media driven, here are a couple of articles that might crystalize the angst for me and people like me.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi … se/594994/
https://opiniontoday.com/2020/07/04/tru … abled-him/
Click to continue on to the Washington Post to see rest of the article.
I will always watch to debates to see for myself how well Biden can perform against Trump's lowball tactics, which I am more than certain that I can expect. Trump and Biden's performances before a live audience will be the "proof in the pudding".
You need not wait to see Biden's performance, he does performances frequently from his basement. Just yesterday he let go of this gem ---
"By the way, what you all know, but most people don’t know, unlike the African American community, with notable exceptions, the Latino community is an incredibly diverse community with incredibly different attitudes about different things,”
Yes, he feels "Latinos' are incredibly diverse showing a great deal of, individuality, that all are not the same but unique. "Unlike African Americans"... Does he believe Black Americans have no diversity, are all innately the same? This line of thinking makes me cringe.
You must realize this man is a full-blown dyed in the wool racist? Dems feel the black vote is all nicely wrapped up. I will keep up the hope that more black citizens really start to realize Joe is and always has been innately racist. As a rule, do not like to predict but in the case of the debate between Trump and Biden, Biden will not only show he is having problems with being confused but will show outbursts of anger. He really can't focus enough to put a coherent sentence or two together, he just says whatever is running through his thoughts.
Come on, he can insult the Black community all he wants, Good Ol' Joe knows the vast majority of Democratic Party supporters will vote up and down party lines, being a Democrat today means being disconnected from reality and common sense.
Joe on President Barack Obama:
“You got the first mainstream African American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that’s a storybook, man.”
Joe on Kids:
"Poor kids are just as bright and just as talented as white kids.”
"So I learned about roaches, I learned about kids jumping on my lap and I loved kids jumping on my lap.”
Joe on Black voters"
“Well, I tell you what, if you have a problem figuring out whether you’re for me or Trump, then you ain’t black.”
We can do this all day, it doesn't matter, from Socialists to Social Justice Warriors they are going to vote Biden no matter what he says... they know the deal, he is just a puppet.
Trump was at Walter Reed on Saturday (again). What was he there for? He had a bad bruise on his right hand afterward. Did they administer an IV? Is he on blood thinners and bruised it?
We should know why POTUS visits Walter Reed so often. All citizens have that right to know.
My understanding is that he was visiting wounded soldiers.
He was. He does so often, but because he doesn't make a spectacle of it, he is even targeted for that. God forbid he ever really have an issue!
It's senseless, how it never stops, never even takes a break, every single thing he does is scrutinized to no end.
In my opinion, Biden will debate. I think the Dems will try to shorten the time of the debate down to an hour. I really can not see Biden being able to stand for two hours. I am not being sarcastic, this man is frail, and showing signs of onset dementia. I am very much disgusted with the Dem party for using this man in this fashion. He will debate, and it will be a massacre. Very sad for this Nation.
I think he drinks beer. Like a lot. Like every day starting at about three O'clock in the afternoon.
As long as he gets home for his beer he will debate Trump and probably do just fine.
... keep him past three O'clock PM, not so much.
What is his nationality by the way? Irish?
(This used to be considered a racist question. Is it still?)
... well, according to internet sources, he IS Irish!
So, his beer drinking explains everything!
I think he needs to get sober before becoming president of the United States of America ...
- Unless we are all on board with alcoholics running the country.
My understanding is that Biden does not drink.
He is better than Trump. My only fear is that he is Biden is so formulaic, not offering the level of change we expect with removal of Trump that apathy may put us in a position of coming up short in the vote tally, with the resulting tragedy of Trump winning a second term.
I seriously doubt there will be a debate. If the polls are actually true this time, then if I'm one of his handlers, or part of the democratic party, I'm urging Biden to avoid any debates with Trump at all costs, since he already has the election in the bag if polls are true, so why mess it up?
Therefore, I wouldn't be surprised if this is the first election year where there are no debates between the candidates.
Or if there is debates still, i wouldn't be surprised if most of them will have his VP pick with him during those same debates to back him up if necessary because I don't think Biden can beat Trump in a debate honestly.
Yes, Trump is an idiot, and made his fair share of mistakes running this country but he knows how to spin things and debate well. He was elected president for a reason, so it would be unwise to underestimate that. Hell, George W. Bush was once called the worst president in US history by Rolling Stone Magazine, but that still didn't stop him from beating John Kerry in his reelection campaign.
Hell no he won't, we all know that.
It is never going to happen, it would prove beyond a doubt that Creepy Ol' Dementia Joe is not the way to go.
Even people that despise Trump would have to be delusional themselves to vote for the man... admittedly many on the Far Left will vote for anyone, convince themselves of anything, to vote against Trump.
I have stated time and again for more than a year I would have loved to have a different option to consider... a Tulsi or Yang would have probably hooked me into voting for them, two people with functioning brains not consumed by the corruption in DC.
Biden... never. And I have been saying that for a year as well. Worst person this side of Clinton, corrupt, establishment puppet, traitor to America and all Americans, the man is as vile as any in DC.
This HP forum has become very quiet. and as a rule, the conservatives are overrun by the liberals giving their opinions on Trump and everything past and present that involves Trump. Now, we are heading toward a presidential election and not a peep... They certainly are not offering any let's compare the candidate's conversations.
Makes one consider they are not willing to discuss the Dem candidate.
Yeah, I'll discuss Biden. It not just about Biden, it is about the Democrats whose platform and ideology are more to my liking than that of Republicans. So, it is more involved than just Biden. I find Trump as a race baiter, AND part and parcel of the party that represents itself as not moving things forward from my point of view. So, if I had to choose between Biden and Satan, the choice is easy.
Anytime you're ready. As for race baiting, some would beg to differ...
Trump is a race-baiter. Have you been at all listening to Biden's remarks from his recent interviews? If I were black, I would be very incensed at hos racist remark. His Platform? There actually is none, well you could have a look at Sander's proposed agenda, and hte agenda Obama uses to win his election, and Oh, Trump's agenda, most of what he already accomplished. Just not sure Joe has an agenda. Very confusing one at best.It would be great to know what he is proposing. I Have researched Sander 110 page of all socialist stuff... Is that the platform you hope to converse on?
I have been listening and he is a "good old boy". I am not pleased with Biden, he is just another corporate Democrat, but he is the only game I. Town .
I am progressive and while Sanders is out there, even for me, a move in his direction if preferable to the status quo or going backwards with the retrograde Republicans.
What terrorizes you give me comfort, I want more Left as the ideal, and will accept moderate Left of center before I even think about any candidate with a conservative agenda, a la Trump style.
All too understandable.
Unfortunately, those progressive ideals come part and parcel of a greater package.
And any package that is championing Open Borders, Defunding the Police, Censorship of Speech, Globalist Agendas is one that I recognize as toxic to all Americans' interests, not just white Americans.
Right. It's called "not having a leg to stand on."
I do not think he will debate Trump. I think his handlers will go through the motions, they’ll acknowledge that they’ve been scheduled and play along, but, they will have excuses; the pandemic, Joe will have symptoms, he will have been exposed to someone with symptoms and so on and so on. They can drag this out in a convincing manner, no problem. They do not want him debating Trump!
Given the current Coronavirus restrictions, ie. masks, social distancing, no audience, etc. I am curious about what the debate format would be if one does occur.
A Zoom debate? Ha. Wouldn't that be a kick. Joe from his basement and Pres. Trump from the Oval Office. ;-)
A Zoom debate. Hmmm. That might work.... The Democrats could pull another Donna Brazile. Someone could hold up the answers and Biden could read them off.... in his basement. No one would be the wiser.
Damn, I hate being a cynic, but reality forces my hand sometimes.
We have many businesses open such as grocery stores where we come in contact with outer citizens. We wear masks we social distance.
It would think the Trump team could ask for a setting as was used when Biden met with Obama. All could social distance and wear masks if appropriate. Seems our Congress, and the entire Government has worked through the virus, It should not be so much to ask to see our traditional debates. This should not be a problem, many large venues available, I would think there should be no more excuses for holding the debate.
It appears all three debates have been confirmed by both parties, and so far venues were chosen. There is lots of time to make all safe.
A basement debate, at this point nothing would surprise me. If it comes to that, I for one will not tune in.
I think a debate stage and moderator panel, with social distancing, would work. Obviously I don't see them speaking to an audience. But I do think the debates could take place in an in-person scenario. Just no audience to to focus on.
If there even is a debate this year, i suspect they'll all have to be done via zoom because I don't see any other alternative at this time.
There’s a thought!
I was watching a zoom, meet the candidates type forum a few nights ago with two candidates, vying for the same position.
The first, did his thing, he was articulate, he had the perfect camera angle, making for a nice head and shoulders shot. He had a presence about him.
Then, the next candidate was up. You could only see his eyes, not a great first impression... I was reminded of Kilroy or of Wilson from ‘Tool Time’...I don’t know if he was articulate or not....I was too busy laughing!
Maybe Joe’s handlers can suggest they debate via Zoom and while we are distracted by the optics (only Joe’s eyes) a sound-alike is answering for him.
Seriously, I don’t think any debates will happen. We’ll see.
AB....Some news anchors are placing bets as we speak.
I swear that since Trump took office I know more about US politics than I do about my own! Joe Biden may be ill, he may be in early stage dementia, he may be this or that. That he is a candidate for leader of the free world, titular head of (still) the world's largest economy, and c.-in-chief of a military so powerful that one of its aircraft carriers anchored in the English Channel in 1942 could have annihilated the entire Third Reich . . . is simply appalling. I do not think that debate will ever take place. Covid-19 is convenient. A sudden, but minor, illness may prevent him from appearing. Any number of excuses loom as possibles. I think Trump is destroying the very foundations and principles of your beautiful country, and I don't like him, but m,y distaste for the man doesn't blind me to his talents. He can talk. He would destroy Biden.
There is a possibility I have NOT heard yet, and I think it very important. Joe Biden is a man, and he has a family. Almost every hour now, he is insulted, ridiculed, demeaned, laughed at, and mentally abused. At some point, within his person, his heart, he has got to feel humiliated and USED. He may very well cave under this constant chant of 'incompetent'--and if he doesn't cave under this pressure and opt out of the race completely, his family may well insist.
Indulge my scenario for a minute. Imagine him still the candidate + he has named a running mate--let's say it's Sept 3 when he announces he cannot continue, "for personal reasons". There must be a provision in your Constitution for such an eventuality, no? Does the running mate automatically become the Democrats' candidate? No time for a leadership convention--no time. And Covid would rule out a large gathering, no? And I believe that short of a nuclear bomb dropped on the White House, the Constitution prohibits postponing the election.
It's an interesting scenario, no?
Lovely to hear from you, Moonfroth. I'll be in touch.
You pose some interesting questions/scenarios. Biden gets Covid and can't debate? Hmm . . .
Biden bows out to his VP pick . . . Hmm . . . I don't see that happening, but it is an interesting thought to consider. Would the DNC transfer their nomination to his VP pick? I think, if he did bow out, that would be a strong possibility. I don't think they would revert to a runner-up—Sanders et al. pick.
However, I do think you are right that short of a nuclear event the election will not be postponed.
Quite interesting, yes. However, it is highly unlikely that Joe Biden would drop out of the race. This is his 3rd bid for the presidency, and his wife very much wants Joe to win.
In any event, if he were to bow out, the Democratic National Committee (DNC) has the authority to call a special meeting and fill the vacancy. The Chairperson would set a date (quickly). I believe they are allowed to choose whomever they like. The majority vote wins. The winner may or may not be Biden’s VP pick. The DNC may also find it necessary to choose a new VP.
Personally, I do not feel sorry for Joe Biden. I have my reasons. I cannot even imagine who they might choose in such a scenario.
All that being said, I rather enjoyed your description of this powerful country I call my native home. It made me want to go out and buy a big, huge flag for the front lawn and sing the Battle Hymn of the Republic with a big lump in my throat. (sigh)
Yep! He's better than us normal folk so to the dems he can just stay in the basement until the election. It's just not safe LOL.
Savvy has asked the wraith of George Washington to chat with Trump and Biden in Limbo, then offer an opinion on the qualities each man brings forward that would make him a good POTUS
GW: Miss Savvy wiled me with her female wiles to be here. I'd much rather be lounging under my cherry tree (never did chop it down, by the way) waiting for one of my sl . . . waiting for one of my staff to bring me a cold drink.
DT: We understand Mr. Pres . . .
JB: I don't understand . . .
GW: Let's just do George, Donald, and Joe. An informal chat. Presidents and wannabe Presidents together to ferret out the truth.
DT: I KNOW the truth, George. I tell them and tell them but they insist on talking and some actually disagree . . .
GW: But surely they have that right. The eff-effs and I made that clear in the D of I and the Constitution that . . .
JB: Wahzza "eff-eff"? Whozza "dee of eye"? I don't understand . . .
DT: The Declaration of Indignity and the document that gives me the right to tell the people what they need. It's a beautiful thing!
JB: You have two referents for singular "It's". You're confusing me. I don't understand . . .
DT: A poached egg on a plate would confuse you. You . . .
GW: Tut-tut! Gentlemen! This is not what Miss Savvy had in mind. Now, Donald, I understand . . .
JB: I don't understand . . . The lights up here are very bright.
GW: Donald, I understand you frequently say you didn't say something that fifty cameras, two hundred recording devices, and a hundred million viewers, ssay you said. How do you account for that?
DT: I don't have to. I'm the President. My feces hath no odour. I just keep denying this stuff until everyone gets bored. Then I move on to other things. Besides, George, if I say I didn't say something, I didn't say it. Simple as that.
GW: But what about the simple truth that you DID say something? Aren't you accountable to . . .
JB: He is absolutely accountable. He is 100% . . .why am I here? Oops! they said I shouldn't . . .Who are you? I like your jacket. You look like somebody I should know.
DT: (scathing) He's the Holiday Inn doorman, Joe. Accountability doesn't matter. Style and image and honesty and manners, all that stuff doesn't matter. My Americans wanted jobs. They wanted Isis defeated They wanted American strength. I, me alone! I gave them that!
JB: You took away the little health care they had, pumped trillions into bigcorp, Isis is just on recess, every country in the world thinks America is a horse's ass--you gave them that!
DT: ah! Joey wakes up! And all you have to offer is . . .
GW: (starting to fade) I've heard enough . . .(fading even more) goodbye.
JB: I don't understand . . . .
Savvy catches up to George just before he fades into the Potomac. "Well, how did it go Mr. President?" (George is only a Voice now) "300+ million people. Surely 100 million are competent, functioning adults. And these two are the candidates you come up with? Angels of Mercy defend us in our hour of need , , , ," And he is gone.
A brilliant piece of dialogue, my friend. I'll forgive your excessive use of artistic license.....well, except for the part where you mentioned my "wiles." That part was 100% accurate.
It appears, moonfroth, that your satire has caused quite the tempest. Goodness. Whatever shall I do with you.
Good thing you live in such a perfect place, Montooth.
It sounds as if you may have a lot of clout there in Canada (all seeing-all knowing) So do us a favor, take in one half of this Country, the left, those whom hate this Country, as much as you seem to! Then all of you can sit on your perch; passing judgment, condemning us, mocking us....just for fun and sport.
We will not mind, we will be much too busy dancing in the streets and celebrating.
Hmm . . . I thought that conversation was funny. And close to accurate . . .
I thought it was insulting and condescending. IF, I read too much into it and overreacted, my apologies to Yves. (aka: "Miss Savvy")
Maybe I was addressing the wrong comment. I was talking about Moonfroth's ghostly conversation. I thought it was cute.
AB.... Moonfroth and I have been friends for years. We have vastly different views on some things, but on other matters we are kindred souls. I consider him a friend. We have mutual respect for one another. He meant no harm. He enjoys satire.... because it is meant to highlight the absurd.... and when you think about it, politics is really quite ridiculous when all is said and done. He is entitled to his opinion just as we are entitled to ours.
I understand your passion. No worries. It's Friday. Put your feet up and enjoy a nice bottle of wine with your wonderful husband. I intend to have a vodka on the rocks. Lol.
I never meant to imply that he isn't entitled to his opinion, just seemed like yet another hit on the U.S.A. to me...and that is getting old!
My apologies to you as well, Mr. Moonfroth.
P.S. It will be margaritas for me! Have a great weekend!
Oh, yum, yum!
AB, just know I understand completely....
You are always welcome to express yourself here as you see fit. I know your heart is in the right place.
Do not think for one minute I do not see various interpretations of the things people say and write...
Have a margarita for me. I've already started on my 2nd vodka. I'm way ahead of you. Ha!
Ha! And I am finishing my second martini, so I am not sure who is ahead. ;o
Ha! And I am finishing my second martini, so I am not sure who is ahead.
Damn, this forum has gotten a bit subdued lately, (without all the anti-Trump threads), maybe we could turn it into a drinking game. ;-o
Kettle One on the rocks with a twist. I'm ahead.
Actually, I am currently binging (again) on Thomas Sowell YouTube videos. I haven't seen all of them yet.
Question: Do you have a favorite book of his? Debating on purchasing:
Intellectuals and Society
A Conflict of Visions
Debunking Systemic Racism & Having Common Decency.
Have you read any of those? I'm leaning towards Intellectuals and Society, but I might get all three. Anyhoo, have a good night. Stay hydrated.
I am a Sowell fan. I recently read A Conflict of Visons and found myself wondering why he isn't more accepted among Liberal circles. Yes, I understand he is a Conservative voice that they would prefer to ignore, but his thoughts are so grounded by common sense and supported by reality that it is only dumb to ignore him because of an ideology.
I do get a hoot will I hear him referred to as an 'Uncle Tom'
The man has a brain and he uses it.
Perhaps you haven't noticed, but there is very little grounded by common sense and supported by reality within Liberal circles today.
And by "Liberal" I mean the Progressive Left aka anyone still supporting and claiming to be of the Democrat Party.
The Liberal world of Universal Healthcare, Universal Basic Income, Open Borders, No Police, Censorship of Wrong-Think Speech, etc. etc. has nothing at all to do with common sense or reality... its takes a suspension of both to be a supporter of today's 'Liberalism'.
Awesome. Thank you. I'll order it from my local bookstore, and perhaps another one of his. I wish all of America and every foreigner would read his books and accept the the facts, frankly.
.....and it was Ketel One (not Kettle). I had the good sense to stop at two. Ha!
And clean, but slightly dry, Stolis martinis for me. Cheers.
Oh give your head a shake, AB Willyuth! Learn to smile a little 'midst the chaos, or perhaps try some cursory research into the people you get in your crosshairs before you pull the trigger. I am on record as a huge fan of the principles that founded the United States. I have more good friends who are American than are Canadian. The Declaration of Independence is arguably one of the finest pieces of short prose ever written. YOU don't hesitate to denigrate Joe Biden as a joke, and you bewail the fact that every twitch of Trump's is put under a microscope (poor Donald . . .). The President of the United States is the most powerful leader on the planet; his actions impact the entire world. You do not OWN him, and I bloody well have a right to comment--in the case of my last post with a dumb little satire--on politics in your country. Candidates for POTUS should be the best of the best. No matter how fervently you support Donald Trump vs Joe Biden, would you seriously argue these two are 'the best of the best.?
THAT is what my little satire is about.
Oh, AB, I'd like to think you got a little carried away with the passion of the moment, but in your last post you made a throw-away remark that any Americans who were to the Left HATED their own country. Do you really stand by that indictment?
Thanks, Moonfroth, I would like to ask the same question. I see almost a universal tendency of conservatives to resent comments that come from those residing outside the US. It is as if you don't have any right to an opinion, this I fail to understand and consider unwarranted.
I also hear the Right accusing the left in regard to hating the country, also unwarranted. So, Bill Clinton, Barack Obama and Joe Biden hates America? Is that not delusional on its face?
The Right has it own agenda , which they believe is as American as Apple pie, and any and all disharmonious and dissenting voices are the equivalent of treason. That kind of reasoning only comes from the Political Right.
Cred, any "agenda" which I may have is in keeping this great Republic of ours intact. Benjamin Franklin, wondered/questioned if we could...if we would...if we had the fortitude to do so. I want to prove him wrong. I don't want to be the generation that caved, do you?
AB, keeping it intact does not mean an automatic resistance to change. Just because we advocate somewhat left of center does not mean that we want the Republic to unravel. Franklin put forth a great question and in over the last 231 years, we have managed to succeed. We have endured challenges as least as great as this one in the past.
Cred, if the "change" you speak of has anything to do with the Marxist movement which has found its way into this Country, then I will resist, until the day I die.
Uh Uh, no way buddy. You don't get to lay that thing about folks that complain about foreigners commenting at the feet of Conservatives.
While it may be true that some of the complainers did have a conservative bias, Jake and Randy came to mind so quickly that I had a moment of dizziness.
Nope, these forums prove that action is a bi-partisan tool. If you see it as a "universal tendency of conservatives" then I think you may be looking at things a little too narrowly. ;-)
GA, Yes, I do make the claim, I don't want to mention names but at least three had taken this attitude in regards to my English compadre who offers us the view from the other side of the pond.
I have never seen this attitude from Jake or Randy.
Being BLUE means not fearing the concept of diverse ideas and points of view regardless of the source. What does RED mean?
Well, my recall of Jake and Randy, relative to comments from foreigners is different. But the point isn't worth the time to go back and find the comments to support it. So there it lays—a bone of contention.
RED means resistance to radical emotion-driven change. Not any just change as you claim.
"RED means resistance to radical emotion-driven change. Not any just change as you claim"
No, GA, that is PURPLE not RED. I would have liked to have thought that you were not part of the RED crowd.
Oh hell Cred, There are just too many crayons in the box. Of course, that was a Purple thought—a mix of red and blue. The blue part says change is okay and the red part says just not radical emotionally-driven change.
Better? Or maybe you just caught me on a RED day. (they have been outnumbering my BLUE days here lately)* #stoptheinsanity
*author's credit to Live to Leann
Red/Blue/Purple = defining limits. "Colour between the lines, children!" In Huxley's Brave New World , children go to sleep with recorders under their pillows droning softly all night long I'm an Alpha. It's so good to be an Alpha. I'd hate to be a Beta. Beta's are bad, Alphas are good and right, I'm so glad I'm an Alpha . . . " Huxley's novel, of course, is a subtly cutting satire of the grave dangers of over-identification with group values. From this outsider's POV, the two great parties of the United States appear to be in considerable disarray. The Democrats seem to have lost their core values and the Republican party is dividing within itself into pro- and anti-Trump camps. Red/Blue/Purple -- are these colours of any real significance any more as signals of belief and abiding values?
Do they HELP the American people rally around moral, spiritual, political, and functional goals designed to further individual happiness and national strength? Not that I can see; rather, they seem like faded signs from past campaigns--they served a purpose once, but that purpose may no longer prevail in the present needs of the country. Any country.
Martin Luther King's specific focus was race when he "had a dream" that a day would come when a man would be valued exclusively for the "quality of his character". For me, there is a huge lesson in that expression of hope. I think it is desperately needed in the United States right now (in passing, it is needed in most countries, including my own). America and its people don't need to be "great again". Surely, as this chaotic mish-mash of fractured events and self-serving, too-often corrupt individuals shuffle towards November 3rd to be born, the American people want to come out the other side of it all, happy.
I would suggest that if political groups made it their fixed purpose to find women and men whose strength of character and personal integrity impelled them towards fulfilling that simple goal for the people they served, a great stride would be taken towards the change in consciousness needed to make Mr. King's dream a reality.
Yes, Yves--we're wayyyyyy off-topic. But, maybe not.
[ASIDE]--snuggled in the Himalayas bordered by India and Tibet is the tiny (half the size of Indiana, saith Wiki) constitutional monarchy of BHUTAN (pop. about 700,000. This little place has been a political entity for over 1200 years. Its legislature is constrained by and fully accountable to a concept which it is forbidden to contravene in any way, called the Gross National Happiness. All its actions, proposals, regulations, and laws, must contribute to the GNH.
To do otherwise, is against the law. Food for thought, no?
The Democratic Party would never choose a candidate based on integrity. To do so would be to relinquish their incredible power. As for Republicans, because they are so individualistic, they sometimes get in the way of one another. Nevertheless, the Conservative goal is to preserve the Constitution, to preserve freedom, to lift people up to be whatever we want to be.
Conservatives wish to preserve America and honor the Constitution. Progressives wish to dismantle America. This is a simple fact, unknown to many here and abroad.
Thomas Sowell, an economist, who may be one of the wisest men in America, highly educated, has some things to say about the dismantling of America. If it is any consolation to you, he does not like Trump either, due to his bad manners, I think, but neither does he blame him for our problems. I would encourage you to view this video with an open mind. It will give you a clearer understanding of what is really happening in America. The video is 10 years old, but it is still relevant today.
I almost feel like offering a sarcastic, "Gee thanks for the link Savvydating." because you know I am a Sowell fan and you should have known your link would lead me to follow a half-dozen more Sowell links. And down the rabbit hole, I went . . . ;-)
There are so many quotable Sowell statements in your link, but I urge others to pay particular attention to his statement from about 22:30 to 23:00 regarding how the Federal government has expanded its power—beyond that given by the Constitution—over the states, and our lives.
By offering Federal money. It is like they say; "Follow the money."
And his ending quote that says it all:
"Please take to heart the lesson of what happens when you vote on the basis of rhetoric and symbolism, instead of using your mind, it doesn't matter how smart you are unless you stop and think."
Amen to that thought. That is my mantra: Learn from history's lessons. We aren't anything new and unique. We are just another version of what has been played out over and over again throughout human society's history. #stoptheinsanity
Hahaha.... I hear you. I do the same thing.
Thank you for pointing out the segment regarding the Federal government. Strangely, I breezed over it, having watched it late at night and having already been bug eyed from viewing so many of his Hoover conversations. I'll check it out again, especially as you were kind enough to note the time frame for the segment. (It can be a bear trying to go back and find what you're looking for).
"Follow the money." That says it all, unfortunately.
I would talk more about some of the things Shelby Steel has said regarding Corporate America's habit of throwing money around to certain causes, out of "white guilt" but that is a whole other discussion. Or is it?
Yves -- you indicate I need a "clearer understanding of what is happening in America" (ie. what I wrote revealed I did NOT so understand), and you said that Thomas Sowell "also" disliked Trump, "But neither does he blame him for [America's] problems" (implying that I do). I do not think my last couple of posts warrant these conclusions . . . but my writing may have been too metaphorical in its reader expectations, leading to your understandable judgments. Having said that, could we side-step any 'she-said-he-said'--which never goes anywhere--and get back to what America is trying to do to and for itself. And where Donald Trump and Joe Biden 'fit' into the game.
First, let's git down and git real basic. I read voraciously, watch videos etc. bearing down on issues from different angles, visit the States frequently, and talk with my many American friends (of which you are very much one). Usually about the state of your Union. Your politics and social imperatives are volatile and fascinating; ours, by comparison, are as flat as piss on a plate. Asked to compare Canada and the States, the late Robin Williams said, "it's like a well-appointed comfortable apartment above a meth lab."
VOLATILE. Your country right now strikes an outsider like me as a powder keg sitting in an open Field of Possibility, a long fuse lit and burning shorter and shorter, men and women on each side of the fuse frantically blowing on it, while a very few are in the long grass searching for the lost pair of scissors someone said were there, hidden from view.
No one has yet thought to go to the powder keg and yank the fuse out.
Most of the posts on this thread have explored the Left and the Right, the not-so-left with the not-so-right, Progressives vs Conservatives, professed death before Marxism, debated pragmatism vs idealism--it's been a fascinating roller coaster of a ride. I've learned a lot, and I'm grateful to every one of you for that, especially you, Yves--you're a well-read, thoughtful and skilled socio-political analyst. But through it all, for me, the BASICS comprising the core explosive within that powder keg have not really been addressed.
Many of you were probably amused at my naive suggestion that happiness should be the focus of all significant political activity. And it was pretty silly for me to introduce an obscure, simple little country buried in the Himalayas as a model for the enormously complex problems facing the most powerful Nation on the planet. Well, then I'm naive. But maybe not so much. I would, for example, be horrified and fight with ferocity against the State "deciding" what comprised "happiness" for me. And liberals, no matter how much they might profess otherwise, incline that way (it aws said of my late Aunt Daisie: "Daisie would give you the shirt off her back. . .as long as she could tell you how to wear it.") No. I'm talking about party strategy meetings, conventions, individuals in political roles of every kind, initiating conversations about happiness as a matter of routine, to make that goal an integral part of the narrative. All narratives.
Is this a big Change I'm suggesting? I don't think so. I think it's a reminder. I think it's a return to the basic principles that prompted your predecessors to found your great country in the first place. Right now, the average American surely wants the dignity of meaningful work to sustain himself and his family; reasonable access to top-quality health care; inexpensive access to world-class education; safety and security in his home and on the streets; trust in those he has assigned to represent his interests; and respect from the other Nations of the world, and a big stick for the dictators and despots who choose to threaten it. overfocus in any one of those areas to the deprivation of others will produce imbalance, and imbalance does not serve the interests of happiness.
Lots more to say. . .but this is enough for now. Thanks for reading . . .and (almost forgot) I've been reading Thomas Sowell for years. I consider him that rarest of men--a clear thinker, a man of consummate reason. A Gatekeeper who has not received the recognition he deserves from the American people. Better hurry--I think he recently celebrated his 90th birthday.
PS . . .I didn't get around to how I think Trump and Biden 'fit into' this 'happiness' scenario I'm asking you to consider. I'll try to do so next time.
"I would, for example, be horrified and fight with ferocity against the State "deciding" what comprised "happiness" for me."
With this I think most people would agree. Certainly I am irritated by claims that the EU has a much better standard of living that Americans...because a high priority is put on things they like but I don't care about, while the things I DO care about are set aside as meaningless to Europeans.
But it gets more interesting when you say:
"Right now, the average American surely wants the dignity of meaningful work to sustain himself and his family; reasonable access to top-quality health care; inexpensive access to world-class education; safety and security in his home and on the streets; trust in those he has assigned to represent his interests; and respect from the other Nations of the world, and a big stick for the dictators and despots who choose to threaten it."
Now it is YOU that is defining "happiness" for Americans, and again I don't think it fits well. First is that self-supporting job - While it may be true for the majority, it is a very slim majority, and we see that with the number of people happily living off of charity. When half the nation contributes nothing to the running of the country it says something about being self-supporting. Greed for ever more "things" overcomes that self sufficient concept.
Then you mention access to the best medical care possible, along with the best education possible. Americans are not willing to pay for these things - that "self sufficiency" thing again - and thus do not want them badly enough to work for them. A pie-in-the-sky dream, then.
Security - as we fight to remove law enforcement in our cities, we can hardly claim that people want security. It is, I think, a minority demanding this, and an ignorant one at that, but a large minority.
Respect from other nations - I don't think a very large majority of Americans care one way or another about other nations and what they think of us. When a majority of Americans can't find France or Germany on a map it says something about how concerned they are with the rest of the world.
Trust in leaders - it would be a rare American that would trust any but the politician they voted for, and usually not that. Trust in government is dead in this country.
A strong military - again, a very large number of Americans are tired of policing the world and would cut our military in half, or more, if they could.
Bottom line; just as the poll takers in the EU, you have a decidedly slanted view of what happiness means in America.
Wilderness..... I would say that my views are not the same as yours, but that is the beauty of Americans. We are quite diverse, after all.
For example, I would never want our military cut in half; I do believe most Americans want a good job, security, and law enforcement. That being said, there are Americans who apparently prefer not to work, but I do not think they comprise half of America.
Mayor DeBlasio, who stupidly defunded the police by 1B, does not speak for most Americans who do want law enforcement. He does not even speak for most New Yorkers, which is why wealthy people from his City are leaving in droves.
As for medical care, ours is still the best in the world when all is said and done. The problem today is that Obamacare messed up a good system and brought insurance premiums up by 300%. Turns out, free stuff isn't free. But you know that better than any of us, I suspect.
As for what other nations think of us, well... if Denmark laughs in my face, I could not care less, (I've had them do it) but I would just as soon not become the laughing stock of dictators around the world if Biden becomes president.
Long story short, we all have slightly different views. The thing that unites us is our freedom.
TECHIE COMMENT--I don't post to HP often. Only when Yves' willfully wandering web woos me weluctantwee. ANYHOO: When I 'minimize' a draft comment, the damn thing disappears forever! What's the trick to retaining your text??
Wilderness and GA Anderson--thank you for responding to my post about Happiness, Much appreciated. With all respect, however, you have caught and returned to me a very different ball than the one I threw. Then moved the goalposts in the dark.
I said, "let's talk basics". I then suggested a mental map--perhaps call it a 'dream list'-- of the fundamental values of the American people. Me, a Canadian, having the bloody temerity to TELL Americans what they value (hand me my musket Martha! we're being invaded from the North!).No.No. I would not presume. The first three 'basics' are basic to humans. It seemed to me that our discussion of ideologies and political personalities needed to be re-grounded in the aspirations of the people themselves. Stage 1 was to state the aspirations clearly, as ideas. In your responses--especially yours, I think, Wilderness--you leap-frogged ahead to practical action or inaction,, and took issue with my points on that level .
But I had not arrived there, yet.
Nor am I entirely comfortable attempting to describe the ways in which the American people go about achieving their basic goals, both as a society and as individuals. I find it bewildering, for example, that you permit major hospitals--HUGE health care facilities--to operate as for-profit corporations and that individuals accept-as-normal staggering monthly health insurance premiums. And I will offer, with respect, the opinion that these are the kinds of issues that affect the happiness o the people and that should be at the centre of discussion about the merits of the two candidates, Trump and Biden.
Your last thought gives us a place to start. I hope it is interesting enough to keep you around awhile. ;-)
You say you are"bewildered" that for-profit hospitals are allowed. So let me ask. If a non-profit hospital is available to folks would you be against a for-profit hospital also being available to them?
And relative to the staggering monthly health insurance premiums, that is a choice of an individual to pay that vs. paying tens, or hundreds, of thousands of dollars for serious medical treatment.
But, that thought requires the consideration that it is a reality that most serious medical procedures/services truly do cost multiple tens of thousands of dollars to provide—regardless of who pays for those costs.
An MRI has a serious cost, (they are million-dollar technological wonders that actually do cost a million dollars), as does a surgical procedure. My point is that those costs; the doctors, the equipment, the facilities, the duration of stay, must be paid by someone. It is not 'free' regardless of the payer, (3rd party health insurance, single-payer national healthcare, or nationalized medical systems), so the choice seems to be that the individual pays, via direct payment or healthcare insurance payments, or government nationalized care payments-which is everyone' paying for everyone else's medical costs.
I don't say that to argue for or against nationalized healthcare, but only to assert the foundational fact that healthcare provision is not free.
Depending on the societal system, (as I understand, your Canadian system is nationalized healthcare), the cost to the individual is either their responsibility or the responsibility of their fellow citizens—through government taxation.
At this point in time, Americans, as a majority, still prefer the personal responsibility of their own medical expenses via our system of healthcare insurance. That is the happiness of their choice. A minority of Americans choose national government-paid healthcare coverage, (Medicaid).
And there lies the basis for my original question; "If a non-profit hospital is available, do you think a for-profit hospital should not be allowed?"
*As for your "TECHIE" question, I am puzzled. Minimalizing your browser window should not affect the content of the tab/window you minimalized. But, if you leave your comment "reply" box via "back arrow" or previous screen navigation it is normal to lose your reply box comments. Happens to me all the time when I have been dormant too long and need to re-log-in to HP. I have learned to copy my comments onto the clipboard before attempting to preview or post them.
Thank you, GA Anderson, for a clear delineation of the health-care options available to Americans. No, I do not object to a small for-profit hospital, or surgical out-patient clinic, down the street from a standard Canadian hospital, funded by taxpayer dollars. These resources are available now. Let me try to put the Canadian medical care system in perspective. When Obamacare was embryonic and proponents and detractors were engaged in full battle, our system was brought forward as an enlightened model of state-of-the-art health care for all . . .or as an imposed socialist sop to the masses who had no choice in the kind of second-rate treatment the State deigned to make available.
That last is not a joke. In similar language, it was put forward in a wonderfully ill-informed judgment by a US Senator in the lead-up to Obamacare. In an earlier post, someone (I think it was Yves) said that American medical treatment is the best in the world. Perhaps. Perhaps not. So many different barometers for "the best in" can be brought to bear. For over 150 years, Canadian doctors and research teams, for example, have been at the forefront of medical breakthroughs that have impacted countless milions throughout the world. Dr. Salk came up with the vaccine that eliminated polio; Dr. Banting's research in the 1920s resulted in insulin, for which he was awarded the Nobel prize in medicine. Canadian doctors and researchers invented Pablum, open heart surgery, isolated the genes that caused cystic fibrosis, introduced the methodologies for transferable stem cells, and developed the HIV cocktail that prevents that condition from developing into full-blown AIDS. I'm just getting warmed-up, but perhaps that's enough to establish Canada's credentials as a world leader, shoulder-to-shoulder with the United States, in sophisticated, game-changing medical breakthroughs and procedures.
[Apologies for leading the thread away from the specific Trump/Biden topic. I'll be brief]
GA Anderson, you make the point that there ain't no free lunch: medical treatment must be paid for by someone. Of course. You also point out that the American temperament PREFERS to handle such payments individually. Only a "minority. . .choose . . . Medicaid." I will leave the issue of "choose" for another discussion, another time. The general distinction you draw throws into relief a fundamental difference between the American and Canadian national character that is seldom mentioned and, when it is, usually misunderstood as "good" or "bad", depending on the stance. Americans focus on the freedom of the individual; Canadians focus on the good of the Tribe. That certainly doesn't mean we're at all lacking in fierce individualists, but our inclination, for example, is to trust our elected officials and the expert groups we turn to for assessment of specialized situations. We are distressed when we find they have lied or failed in their fundamental responsibilities to us. Governments have fallen up here over a single falsehood revealed. Turning to something like health care: we call it "universal" health care, and practice it in a way that I think would grate on the sense of propriety of many (most?) Americans--I'd appreciate opinions on this next point: if a hardcore heroin addict who's been on welfare for the past ten years, steals to support his habit, hasn't paid taxes since god-knows-when, and is just a leech in every way, is brought into Emergency and diagnosed with a brain tumor . . .he'll get whatever surgery and other treatment he needs, and most Canadians will mumble "fucking leech", shrug, and carry on. We accept that kind of thing as part of the life of the Tribe. We don't like it, but we accept it. Which is all very grand of us and very stupid at the same time. Remember, no "good" or "bad". I'm trying to describe, not judge.
Believe it or not, I'm going to try to spin this example of our health care systems back to Trump/Biden. First of all, an apparent diversion. Bernie Saunders, it seems to me, espoused a vague kind of "for the people" stance that smacked of "socialism" and was perhaps received by Americans as placing the heroin-addict just depicted as on-a-par with a hard-working American taxpayer (is that a fair depiction?). In other words 'social leveling' was positioned AHEAD of the Individual. That doomed him and his platform, I would think, because whatever one thinks of Trump, he presented himself as the non-politician Individual who owed nothing to Big Corp or Big Pharma and would be his own man in Washington. That characterization surely appealed tremendously to a voting public fed to the teeth with the ways of the professional politician who had lost touch with the individual American worker. Rightly or wrongly, the mantle of socialism was draped over Bernie's shoulders. And he was doomed in the American consciousness.
Deep respect for the Individual is engrained in the American character, sanctioned even in the closing lines of the D of I where--though united in a common purpose--each individual Colony maintains its identity as a separate entity in its participation in the rebellion.
I'm not sure where the hell I'm going with all this. I used the example of Canadian health care as an example of a kind of tribalism that would not wash in the United States. Trump came along at the perfect time, holding forth himself as the strong Individual who would pull together the tattered bits of the social fabric and provide the strong sense of direction Americans felt they needed in Washington. He seemed to promise a return to the basics--jobs, security, national dignity, the efficacy of the Constitution. A more Tribal approach--Bernie at the extreme; Canadian health care as a metaphor for the kind of re-definition of America that Democrats seem to envisage (?)--might be what Biden represents. I do not know. I'm throwing a lifeline from my bobbing raft back to my American friends on the shore. Blub . . .blub . . .blub . . .blub . . .
I have been pondering your comment for about 20 minutes now, trying to pick a direction, but you provide so many options I am still unsure of where to jump in. So I will take the easiest first.
I should start with a mea culpa. I was wrong to include Medicaid as an example of "choosing." Ideologically it might be viewed as one, as in "If you worked to better yourself, or if you had made better life choices, you wouldn't need medical assistance." but I don't support that as a general statement. For too many folks that struggle is beyond the reality of their capabilities.
I will make you a trade. I will offer an American view on your heroin addict illustration in exchange for an explanation of why you qualified the for-profit hospital answer with "small?"
It is my opinion that us Americans have a much more prevalent Darwinism component in our "tribal" thinking—relative to cultural expectations, than most Canadian or European perspectives.
Regarding Americans, I think most "Conservatives" would probably resist giving any but life-saving "free" medical services to your addict unless there was some evidence of an effort by that addict to not be an addict. Whereas I think most "Liberals" would be fine with offering not only that life-saving care but also free dental and gender realignment services as well.
I don't mean to shortchange your efforts in your comment, but you offered enough for several new threads on their own, so I will also try to bring this back to the Trump/Biden topic of the thread.
I agree with your thoughts about Trump portraying the individual and Biden/Sanders portraying the tribe. And I agree that it is the degrees of each that will define the debate outcome.
I think Biden will hurt himself, and the Liberal agenda, by going too far in his "free stuff" and "tax the rich" offerings on the debate stage, (I certainly think he did in the primary debates). As I understand it, even all of Biden's proposed new taxes to fund his agenda were implemented, they will still fall about $30 Trillion short, (over a 10-year period), of paying for his programs.
Even if it isn't a $30 Trillion shortfall, Trump will tear him apart on those pocketbook issues.
Beyond our current pandemic issues, the only forceful line of attack I can see for Biden is Trump's character. Ironically, I think there is more ammunition there than Biden could ever use, (or need), but I don't think that single attack-track will be enough.
On the other side of the stage, if Trump goes overboard with his name-calling and verifiable false statements then all Biden will have to do is be quiet and let him dig his own grave.
Well, damn Moonfroth . . . "as flat as piss on a plate," "it's like a well-appointed comfortable apartment above a meth lab," your comments are an enjoyable read. and it's nice to meet another Sowell fan.
I don't think your point about "happiness" is a naive one. But, if there is any naivety there I would say that it may be in your thought that "happiness" is simply the satisfaction of a few "basics." Or to be precise, I don't think your basics are basic enough to be applied to a societal population.
I understand the appeal of your listed basics because they include a couple of my own, but I don't think they are universal basics. Wilderness pointed out one perspective that seems to support that, and when the subject is a society of human animals I think Ayn Rand nailed the problem with her crude description of us as three distinct categories; producers, moochers, and looters.
Each of those groups will have a different set of basics that defines happiness for them. And I am all for that. Except for the most basic of basics that I think comprise happiness; security, sustenance, and shelter, I think happiness, (as applied to us humans), can only be described as 'beauty' often is—it is in the eye of the beholder.
Now, to bring that winding thought back to the conversation of U.S. politics, the volatile powder keg metaphor you used is not one of no one thinking to pull the fuse from the keg, but would probably be more aptly described as the battle between folks trying to pull the fuse and folks trying to stop them from doing it, aka the politicians of political factions.
Simply put, who are you, (generic you of course), to tell me what makes me happy, or how to live my life, or . . .
My favorite metaphor for happiness is the Baskin-Robbins business model—ice cream for everyone means a flavor for everyone.
Apply that to your thought that the focus of politics should be our happiness and my view is that the activity shouldn't be to provide that happiness, but simply to secure the possibility of attaining it.
Hi Moonfroth.... I appreciate your question and plan to respond back relatively soon.
“I'm talking about party strategy meetings, conventions, individuals in political roles of every kind, initiating conversations about happiness as a matter of routine, to make that goal an integral part of the narrative. All narratives.”
Moonfroth.... I believe we (as individuals) have the means to attaining happiness now. The U.S. Constitution, as you well know, drafted the ideals of happiness and freedom. Our Amendments secure those rights, even today.
And as Abraham Lincoln famously said, “Folks are usually as happy as they make up their minds to be.”
However, policy discussions that are fruitful can increase happiness for important causes. If only the other side would come to the table.
For example, many minority children who live in poorly run cities, nearly all Democrat cities, are suffering from poor educations. Conservatives wish to allow these children to have vouchers so that these children can get out of failing schools and attend a charter school that is successful. Unfortunately, teachers’ unions, run by Democrats do everything in their power to shut down charter schools, even going so far as to destroy the buildings or enforce unreasonable rules which make it impossible for them to teach properly. They (the Unions) do this to secure the jobs of inept teachers who under-perform in public schools. Some of these teachers literally read a magazine all day long while the students run amuck. This is what the Democrat Party supports today because the Unions support the Democrats. Conservatives reject this abuse of children.
When a student does somehow manage to get into a charter school, usually through a lottery system (and not because he has been specially selected due to his talent), he does as well or better than kids who come from well-to-do neighborhoods or kids who go to expensive private schools because their parents can afford it. These "poor" kids usually go on to college and do spectacularly well, yet the Democrats are turning over every stone to deny them this privilege.
That, my friend, does not contribute to happiness. It only contributes to more kids hanging out in the streets with nothing to do, eventually getting into trouble by selling drugs and ending up in prison.
This is what Conservatives are up against when we try to have “discussions” (in which one side is always absent, by the way) and only one of the reasons why we do not want Biden or any Democrat for President. This is today’s reality and it is especially sad for our children.
Enough for the time being…
Biden will try and avoid the debates, because he could be a loser as Trump has a way to charm the camera and grab attention.
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