Counting Illegal Aliens in FL

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Sab Ohposted 13 years ago
So, there seems to be something of a dispute over the issue of counting illegal aliens in the FL census for purposes of demographic information vs. determining representation in Congress.

Thoughts?
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  wychicposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The census is supposed to reflect US citizens...once upon a time, women and slaves weren't counted on the census, so why should we be counting illegal aliens now? Granted, the former two were originally excluded because they were considered less than human...but I'm just talking exclusively about citizenship. If they think the illegal aliens there need to be counted, then they've got quite a job because they'll have to be counted in other states too...California, Texas, and Wyoming come to mind, though I'm sure quite a few states have their share.
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  alexandriaruthkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  they should count it as well for planning purposes and to estimate how many are illegal aliens
  
  I think FLORIDA should follow the CENSUS questionnaire by the US government, they should count and include all those who are staying in the household where permanently or just staying there at times
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  alexandriaruthkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I think they are really counting them anyway, as in the questionnaire theyre asking how many people usually lives there, usually, it is up to the owner of the house to divulge or no,
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  cosetteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  well, like it or not, they have to count these people because they are everywhere and using resources and it helps each state and county know where to put its money to good use. ignoring that huge segment of the population is kind of shortsighted, IMO.
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  ledefensetechposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No they don't, these people shouldn't be receiving free services anyway. As for the state knowing where to put its money to good use, that's laughable. How much money was wasted on the stimulus bill that didn't create a single solitary job? This is a political ploy, nothing more and nothing less.
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  livewithrichardposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  There you go over projecting. The stimulus was a federal mandate and Cosette is right, the State and County and local communities need to know these demographics to fight crime, provide emergency services, build infrastructure etc.. they only get these demographics from a detailed census. Explain the political ploy.
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  ledefensetechposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I did explain the ploy, several posts back. The stimulus bill provided money to states for "shovel ready" projects, supposedly. So yeah, states did have something to do with the federal bill, but you're right, things should not have been done that way.
  
  As for the states needing to know where people are to apportion money, that's a state matter isn't it? Not one for the census or Federal attention. There's nothing stopping states from running their own census to determine where money needs to go, is there? Besides, by running a census statewide, you're much more likely to get an accurate count than you would if you relied on a federal census. In fact, the Federal census could save massive amounts of time and effort if they coordinated with state and local governments to conduct census operations. By using local data, they're sure to get the best data, as opposed to the shotgun tactics they use now.
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  Flightkeeperposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It did create tens of thousands of jobs but at a cost of something like a $100,000 each
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  cosetteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  right or wrong, we still need to know where our money is going, and the reality of our population. that is what the census is all about. how can we be accurate if we ignore a huge segment of the population?
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  ledefensetechposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The only reason we have a census is to apportion representation, not to determine where money goes. That's not the job of the government. In fact, I'd rather not have the government be able to track the movements of it's people. The only reason to do that is to deny them freedom of movement.
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  Flightkeeperposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  LDT, did you just take the crazy pill?
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  ledefensetechposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think so. Why?
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Flightkeeperposted 13 years ago
I thought citizens were the only ones counted when it comes to calculating the number of representatives you have. This is an interesting question. No, I don't think illegal aliens should be counted. I don't think they should use the census to calculate the number of representatives each state should have in the House.
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  Sab Ohposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  But that is exactly how they do calculate for purposes of representation. That is one of the main purposes of the census.
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awareposted 13 years ago
lets make them legal . problem solved
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  Sab Ohposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And what about the next million that will follow? And the next? And the next?
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  wychicposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I have to agree with aware...they'll come whether they're legal or not, but if they're made legal citizens then the government can tax them. What I see happen here all of the time are households full of illegals that make good money on the local farms, and one non-working legal citizen -- usually with kids -- who draws hundreds of dollars of food stamps every month so that less money has to be spent. If these people were legal, they would have to account for themselves come tax time and it's much less likely that this kind of behavior would be able to continue.
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  Sab Ohposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Think a few steps further though about the consequences of such action.
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  wychicposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not saying that all someone has to do is show up and say, "I'm here, make me a citizen." There do have to be certain requirements in place to achieve citizenship, as I said in one of my articles....I can't remember if I wrote it here or on Helium....the key is that we want productive citizens, not just more people to add to welfare when they don't need it. If you can't be a productive citizen, then you have no business being here...unfortunately, we can only deport those unproductive citizens that came from elsewhere.
  
  That said...people seem to have the impression that, given the chance, the entire world would come to the US...where does this assumption come from? We're not exactly overcrowded as it is, so if it's productive people who will benefit the economy as opposed to presenting an additional burden, then we could sure use a few more of those. People in areas with high unemployment seem to be forgetting how we got there...we have to have consumers in order to have businesses, and the more varied the consumption the less likely we will see such nasty crashes as has recently caused an issue.
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  Sab Ohposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I respectfully suggest you are still not thinking through to consequences
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  wychicposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And I would love to see some additional points of view here...an explanation of the line of thought is generally more effective than simply telling someone they're wrong .
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  Sab Ohposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It's not a matter of being "wrong," you are entitled to your point of view, but I wonder if you are considering what such action would do to distort our electoral process, how it would encourage an unimaginable wave of further illegal immigration, and how it would devastate our economy.
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  wychicposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  This is where I would like to hear some supporting points...because I honestly don't think it would have the kind of devastating effect that people think it would. Representatives change with population within a state, and that population can change dramatically from movement within the country just as easily as it could from outside. For instance, in Wyoming we have all small towns and vast tracts of land where no one lives. We have enough space that it is possible for huge businesses and housing developments to suddenly spring up, government lands to be opened up for development, and for the population to change dramatically enough to alter our representation (suspending disbelief for a moment, since most of the country can't find a good reason to live here ). Birth rates could increase, adoption rates from within our outside the country could increase, and any number of things that would affect the population.
  
  Next...where does the economic devastation come from? Thousands of businesses have been going under because of the lack of customers, and even in some cases the lack of available qualified employees. We're hardly straining our country's resources, and it would take a heck of a lot to start overburdening the entire country.
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  Sab Ohposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "Representatives change with population within a state, and that population can change dramatically from movement within the country just as easily as it could from outside."
  
  You don't see the difference between the two?
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  Sab Ohposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "Next...where does the economic devastation come from? "
  
  From higher unemployment and greater welfare outlays vs. tax revenue, for one thing.
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  wychicposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And this is a greater devastation than the current revenue leaks we have from people shipping their entire paychecks to their family living outside the US? I guess I don't see why there's the automatic assumption of more welfare and higher unemployment, because where there's a demand businesses have a better chance of flourishing and creating jobs. Any percentage of population increase is likely to come with a proportional increase in welfare, but also a proportional increase in tax revenues.
  
  From an economic standpoint, our major problem is that money has been flowing out of the country instead of flowing within it. Granted, the biggest problem has been imports, then borrowing money from the exporting country in order to be able to buy more imports. However, immigrants whose families can not join them in the country because of citizenship issues also present a large leak in the economy. If their families were here they would have to buy all of their household goods, groceries, etc. within the US, they'd likely buy a car, maybe a house, and all of that money would at least have a chance of staying here. Sure, some will go for imports, as pretty much anyone's income will, but it won't be every cent the worker didn't need for subsistence.
  
  As for changes in population...there is a slight difference between immigrants and US citizens moving between states, though as far as representation is concerned there is no difference between legal immigrants and natural-born citizens...should we all stop having babies for fear of throwing off the balance of representation?
  
  And just wanted to clarify, since I know the tone of text isn't always what it's intended to be...I'm not arguing, I'm debating . I love to hear all the different views, especially on these controversial issues, because it really helps to think about, re-evaluate, and qualify an opinion on it .
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  Flightkeeperposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  One way to plug that revenue leak of money flowing out of the country when it comes to illegals is to not hire them period. When they get those fake ss# they are committing identity theft and creating a lot of problems. There should be more enforcement on the employers to do their id check and penalize them heavily if they ignore the rules.
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  wychicposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Very true, though I do wonder how easy it would be for people to find out whether an ID is real or not? There are plenty of legal immigrants too, and many of them need jobs in order to be allowed to stay.
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  ledefensetechposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Illegals will always have the inside track against native born citizens because of things like the minimum wage laws. Americans, simply put, are too expensive to hire. Since US firms now are forced to compete globally, there is great pressure to reduce the cost of just about everything involved in business. One major expense is employees. Until and unless businesses are allowed to set wages commensurate with the wages in the rest of the labor market, American workers will continue to lose out.
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  Flightkeeperposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That's why the focus should be on enforcing the id check on employers.
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  livewithrichardposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  A good majority of the Mexicans that come here illegally do not want to become Americans. They only want the jobs and the money to send back to their families in Mexico. This is why many cohabitate and share expenses while living here. It's not about citizenship its about jobs.
  
  I recently heard there are approximately 8 million illegals who are actually working here in the US (many more who are not) and there are approximately 8 million unemployed legal citizens in the US. I have to ask myself, are the illegals working here really doing jobs Americans don't want to do? Because the math points to a logical solution to our jobless problem.
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  livewithrichardposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You're assuming that illegals don't pay any taxes at all. Most of them do pay taxes, state sales taxes as well as state and federal income taxes. They're most likely paying it under a false or stolen SS#, usually a child's SS# that won't find out about it until s/he tries to establish credit after turning 18 or has to file their own taxes at tax time. For the most part, the collected taxes are never refunded and who knows what happens to the money then.
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  wychicposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Good point, I'm sure some do . That would explain how many illegals are able to get jobs in certain restaurants and such places that are supposed to require W2s
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No, just another problem created.
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  rebekahELLEposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  they do come in and teach our young children the English language when they are barely able to speak it. some of them teach in preschools where children are learning basic language skills. yes, there is a problem.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Let's send them home. Problem solved.
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  awareposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  my family came here in 1753 . how bout yours?
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  ledefensetechposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Should I pack my bags? My mom is a first generation immigrant.
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  Flightkeeperposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh yeah, part of my family was here when he saw yours and knew you guys were trouble.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  (I'm of Cherokee Indian descent, so I guess you could say part of me has always been here.)
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  Mishaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Legal immigrants in 1753? Thank you for the giggles
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Misha your combining two seperate statements from two seperate people talking about two seperate time periods...
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  Mishaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I see what you mean LOL. You should have clarified then, cause it really sounds as you are regarding Aware's family as legal immigrants
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  in 1753 Might Made Right, today we are suppose to be more civilised.
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  Mishaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It is still the same, just camouflaged with some deceptive rhetoric
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
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sneakorocksolidposted 13 years ago
Close our borders! Save America for Americans!
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  Sab Ohposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  We are not North Korea. Don't overdo it.
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  manlypoetrymanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What country on the face of the planet...allows you to be a citizen...just by showing up in their borders, Sab Oh?
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  Sab Ohposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not sure any country does. And I'm very sure I made no comment to that effect.
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  manlypoetrymanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well then...my bad...I wasnt sure which way you were going with that comment about North Korea.
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  IzzyMposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Britain??
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  manlypoetrymanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Really?
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That does not surprise me
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IzzyMposted 13 years ago
They don't really. It just seems like that. With people from all countries seeking entry under the asylum clause, skipping all the other European countries to get there, by the way, there are now reports that by 2025 the asylum seekers/illegals will outnumber the British.
A bit scary when you think they could then win elections and impose Sharia Law if they so wished.
A lot of the asylum seekers are granted leave to stay, but those who are refused just go underground, and no-one seems to enforce their removal!

Ooops sorry to jump this thread!
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1974posted 13 years ago
First of all, making them citizens for the sole purpose of taxing them is ludicrous. The majority of the illegals in Florida are migrant farm workers. They work for cash.

If you really want to tax the illegals, there needs to be a fair tax system. Get rid of the IRS and have a national sales tax, problem solved.

I also don't believe the reason for counting them is to be able to represent the state population in Congress, I just think they want more federal aid money (that's based off of census numbers).
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  wychicposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The majority here are migrant farm workers who work for cash as well, but those who would participate as a citizen in the country have no way to do so. Many of us have jobs that would allow us to evade taxes if we so chose, and plenty still do, but many of us pay our taxes because it's what's expected to live within this government. There is no government where some people won't fall through the cracks, that's the price we pay for having a bit of freedom instead of a Big Brother society, but that doesn't mean that we should leave a chasm for an entire segment of society that we know is there to fall into.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I agree the income tax needs to be revoked, sales tax increases to compensate, to me, makes sense.
  
  I say count the illegals, so we can Identify them and send them to their own country.
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ledefensetechposted 13 years ago
This is just another scam by certain groups of politicians to get more people on the dole so that they can control they way they vote and be assured victory in any election.

wychic, money flows into and out of economies all the time. Where they money goes, really isn't that important. As far back as the 16th century, scholars noticed that money flowed from places that had too much, Spain for example, to places where there was not enough, like England and France. Believe me, this "Buy American" stupidity will only make things more expensive for Americans and hurt the poor in the long run.

Sab Oh, the devastation comes from increased taxation. The problem with allowing the government to determine how the money is spent is that they will allocate money according to rewarding political support, not necessarily where it will do the most good. The "stimulus bill" is a perfect example of how unions and other politically connected groups benefited, even as the unemployment rate skyrocketed. We will only see a true recovery when the government stops spending money and lets the citizens of this country keep what they earn and get on with the business of rebuilding the economy.
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awareposted 13 years ago
their here already they work and live here they have kids here . make them legal so they can pay tax. charge a fine to help pay for their assimilation into the states. .i m in Florida . i work construction for 20 years here . i know many of these people .their good people . that will make great Americans .
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Aya Katzposted 13 years ago
Ledefensetech, good point. I wonder if American workers will soon start to pretend to be illegal immigrants so that they too can get a chance at those below minimum wage jobs.
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  Flightkeeperposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I think teenagers and entry0level workers are the ones who lose out to the illegals. It's why the immigrations laws should be stricter.
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  ledefensetechposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Minimum wage has destroyed more jobs than all the illegals in the history of the US has.
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  Flightkeeperposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No doubt but we're not talking about minimum wage, we're talking about illegals.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  A BELOW minimun wage job would be a big raise for me since I haven't been able to get ANY kind of job for over two years now, thanks in big part to the ILLEGALS that have stolen the jobs I am qualified for, and making those jobs pay oh soo much less....
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  ledefensetechposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The problem isn't the illegals, but with the minimum wage act. By increasing the wage, you actually destroy jobs. Think about it. If you can afford x amount of workers at y wage, then you're forced to increase the amount you pay in wages, you'll have to hire less workers. Chances are good, when facing global competition, that you can't simply raise your prices, because that will cost you customers. Lose enough customers and you go out of business. That won't help the unemployment numbers any. That doesn't even include all the hidden burden on businesses like unemployment tax, workman's comp insurance, social security, medicare, etc.
  
  All of those things are actually paid by the employees. Rather than eat the cost of those things, employers simply pay less to employees. The cost gets passed on to the customers of the labor market, in other words.
  
  While I agree with the elimination of the income tax, we should not replace it with a national sales tax. If you give the government too much money, they then start to use all that money to buy votes. Why do you think they make such a big deal about how much money a certain community will get from government contracts? That doesn't mean that whatever government contract you get is the best way to use that money.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If truly you believe that then you won't mind me stealing what is yours...breaking the law and supporting criminals, is what your advocating... all the pretty words and reasons why they 'have' (are forced) to be criminals does not change the fact that they are criminals.
  
  And the age old saying that employers should be the ones to decide who gets paid what, simply leads us straight back to a feudal society. the haves (rich, lords) and the have nots (poor, peasants).
  
  Your way leads us to the United Corporations of America. I prefer the United States, but thanks for playing.
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  ledefensetechposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh Lord, another progressive bot. Sorry man, but I'm not interested in drinking that kool aid. You might want to do some reading on things like the feudal period and stuff before you start making unfounded comments.
  
  It's not just the employer who decides how much to pay, you can always walk away from a job offer that you feel is beneath your skills. That's what makes it different from a feudal society. Thanks for showing your ignorance.
  
  Now what you estimate your value to be worth may be, heck probably is, inflated. People tend to value themselves more highly than may be warranted. The bottom line is that if you can't justify why an employer should keep you on and how you best serve the customers of the company, your job is better off eliminated.
  
  Heck you've admitted to taking a below minimum wage job in order to work. Shouldn't you have the opportunity to do so. I mean, it's not like that's going to be your forever job, it sounds like you just need something to get on your feet. Minimum wage, not illegals are keeping you from that. After all I'd rather hire Americans, just for language reasons alone, than illegal immigrants, but if I'm prohibited by law, I'll go the illegal route.
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ledefensetechposted 13 years ago
Illegals aren't much of a problem, they're more of a scapegoat that politicians use as a smokescreen to misdirect the public from their own blunders. If we eliminated things like minimum wage and other laws that make it too expensive to hire American workers, you'll see less demand for illegals. Less demand for illegals, less of them will cross the border. So it really is germane to the discussion.
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  livewithrichardposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You're partially right here. The market of supply and demand would replace the minimum wage efficiently except for the enormous over supply of illegal workers in this country. The problem with your supposition is that you think all the illegals here are low wage, under educated, blue collar workers when in fact many are professionals with college degrees. Many of these are people that just melted into society after their educational or work visas expired. These are the people that hold hundreds of thousands of high paying jobs that don't even take into consideration the minimum wage because nobody in those professions would fathom that idea.
  
  But back on track, these illegals are being tallied in the census which will completely change the political representation in certain locations. They should not be counted for that purpose but they should be counted just to know where they are and who is providing they asylum.
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  rhamsonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Your solution will only result in lowering the standard of living that is already a race to the bottom.
  
  If you want to get rid of the illegal immigrant workers throw a hefty fine on the employers that hire them.
  
  To eliminate the minimum wage would be tantamount to declaring war on the labor force and to those that are hungry enough they can work two or three jobs to make up for the loss of income.
  
  Your plans would only cause the country to further drive a wider separation of the very wealthy and the poor.
  
  Are you sure you didn't run a coal mining company in an earlier life. Your solutions sound strangly reminiscent of their practices. Everyone will owe the company store.
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  ledefensetechposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  We've established, I think, that you don't know what you're talking about. We already fine and punish employers who are caught. It doesn't work. All you'd do is replicate the failed "War on" policies that our government has failed at since Prohibition.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If that isnt the kettle calling the pot black...
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  rhamsonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well, I hope you are not speaking for the whole forum, because I would be loathe to think there are so many that espouse the unfounded theoretical BS you lay on so many in here. You act like you are an authority and make outrageous assertions that make no sense.
  
  Sure we have fined "some" employers such as Oscar Meyer for the illegals they hire but a couple of thousand dollars? They save that in a few hours of production by underpaying their slave labor workforce.
  
  To eliminate the minimum wage only delays the inevitable. A slave labor workforce and an elimination of the middle class.
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ledefensetechposted 13 years ago
Well sure some of them are here after their visas have expired. But they're educated, can presumably speak the language and are well positioned to assimilate into mainstream US life. Nothing wrong with that. In fact that could be seen as a validation that the US is doing something right, as people come here for education and wind up staying due to the opportunities afforded here that presumably are not afforded in their country of origin.

As to your second point, that's why I said this is a ploy by politicians to get another dependent group to vote the "right way". After inclusion in the census there will be pressure to normalize their status or offer amnesty, asylum or something that will give them the vote. Once they have that, politicians will have little to fear from Americans who do not use or need government programs and will have another captive population to increase the chance they will be elected and continue to increase the dependency of the population on the government.

Early progressive literature is rife with comments attesting to the need to control the masses and the best way to do it was by making the masses dependent on something other then themselves for their livelihood. That is exactly what we have today with the obscene Great Society programs of the 1960's and the obsolete "emergency duration measures" of the New Deal. Adding illegals to the census is just another way to skew political power to a particular viewpoint.
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  rhamsonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Too much to dispute with you on this series of comments. Besides, you have established that I don't know what I am talking about so I guess there is no purpose in disputing this any further.
  
  You are either very naive or too young to know any better.
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  ledefensetechposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  We've already established that you're intellectually lazy. Otherwise why just post quotes? You just don't know how to debate facts and rely solely on rhetoric to make your point. Weak and sad.
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  rhamsonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I really think you flatter yourself in using the plural when validating your opinion. The attacks you make only reinforce the empty assertions you make. To discuss the pertinent theories you profer should have some foundation which you do not offer. Your bias favoring an extreme capitalist society is quite plain and with recent events unchecked capitalism has caused a catastrophe for this country.
  
  Your assertions have no substance.
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  Mishaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you for the giggles
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Unchecked Capitalism is like having 15 people playing monopoly and starting the game with only one person owning all the properties...it makes no sense.
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  ledefensetechposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That's a vivid image, but it makes an awful lot of assumptions.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  AMEN
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
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rebekahELLEposted 13 years ago
opinions are our right, why tell someone their opinion is wrong?
if you want to discuss, fine, but why tell someone their opinion or viewpoint is wrong? that's just wrong. people look at issues with different perspectives.
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cosetteposted 13 years ago
um...

wow

okedokee.

(backs away slowly)
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yenajeonposted 13 years ago
There are other reasons for the government spending millions of dollars to have a census report. Its more than just to count the population. In terms of future budgeting of schools, medicare etc, those 'illegal aliens' need to be factored in!!

Otherwise, we'll be underbudgeted again with the issue of trying to come up with the money later, when we need it to accomodate those 'aliens'.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Those Illegals need to be gotten rid of. Not budgeted in.
  
  'criminals'
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  ledefensetechposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  School budgets are supposed to be local issues, not federal ones.
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  yenajeonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  yes but consolidated public schools get funding from the government. Especially schools in low-income sectors! Each state get appropriated funds from the government! The state then uses that money for whatever they decide upon including education.
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  ledefensetechposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And that is why kids are no longer educated, but rather indoctrinated. Plus it further removes the parent from the educational process, which many studies have found to be detrimental to the ability of students to learn.
  
  Have you ever heard or Dr. Max Gammon? He did a study on the NIH and found that an increase in funding for the NIH did not mean an increase in beds. His theory states that instead of going to output, all increased funding for government enterprises goes to bureaucracy. Which is why even though we've been increasing the dollar amount per student in the US since 1970, we don't educate kids nearly as well. While Dr. Gammon studied health systems, his theory is easily adapted to many government run or assisted programs.
  
  http://hadm.sph.sc.edu/Courses/Econ/CLA … edman.html
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  livewithrichardposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Indoctrinated? You don't have any children going to school do you? You make this statement as if it were universal across this country and it's not. There are more qualified schools than unqualified and we normally see the bad schools in the most urban settings and the most rural settings. The fact that we have increased per student funding every year is true BUT adjusted for inflation those dollars are less than what they were 20 years ago per student (you also have to account for the increase in illegal students, accommodating those student with their language and cultural barriers, and an ever growing student body).
  
  The real problem is that we allowed the Fed.Govt. to strong arm its way into an area that has always been reserved for state control. NCLB is the worst legislation that ever went through congress. Increase the spending and eliminate the huge bureaucracy that came with NCLB and you will see states implementing curriculum's that benefit the communities they serve, as it should be, instead of trying to prepare every student for college when the majority of students do not want or will not attend college. It's the biggest waste of money in our country.
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  rebekahELLEposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with everything you say, although I do believe there are students that absolutely need to go on to university. there are brilliant minds in students and they have every right to a decent college experience. it not only educates but it often helps to give our future CEO's, physicians, educators, scientists the necessary education and opportunity for research grants that are needed to improve and move ahead as a country.
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ledefensetechposted 13 years ago
That is exactly my point. The Federal government should have nothing to do with education. Educations has always been and should always be a local matter. The Feds have bulled their way into education, as you put it by gaining control of the purse strings. Now we all have to dance to Federal wishes if we want money for our schools. You'll get no argument about NCLB from me.
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SweetiePieposted 13 years ago
Even two hundred years ago kids were "indoctrinated" rather than "educated" if you want to boil it down that way. Seriously, I have more faith in people and society in general than some people do. Also, when you think about it if you were in the shoes of an illegal immigrant there might be mitigating circumstances that would propel you to jump a border. This does not mean these illegal immigrants are criminals in every aspect of their life, and many of them actually apply to become citizens once they get here. I am not advocating that people do this, but if you live in a third world country and cannot afford the visa to come, your motivations are extremely different than people who have the leisure and resources to post on forums.
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  livewithrichardposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  But criminals, none the less. Do we reward criminals in this country? Obviously we do in this area. I think it all boils down to this one aspect, once they cross our borders illegally they are doing a criminal act and we cannot justify it by simply stating they were trying to provide a better existence for their families. Isn't that what most criminals claim?
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  SweetiePieposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You and I have the free time to post on the forum, and these people often do not have money to feed their children if they stay where they are. It may not be the most admirable way to enter the country, but oftentimes people do what they have to do to come to the US. I do not advocate it, but I simply do not have time to judge people. Also, there are many US citizens that break the law every day, and in worse ways than some mom who crosses the border because her children do not have enough food to eat in Mexico. Anyway, I just have more belief in the future, and I do not believe the world is ending in 2012.
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  ledefensetechposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Nevertheless Sweetie, indoctrination is indoctrination rather than education. The problem with indoctrinating someone is that you set the stage for something like the Inquisition or the gulags or something. Education, on the other hand, gives someone the tools to understand the difference between education and indoctrination and makes it much less possible for an "authorized" atrocity to occur.
  
  Richard, are you aware that until the 1920's there were few restrictions on who could immigrate here? Immigration laws are a relatively new thing. Basically they were a response to people's anxiety over the closing of the frontier. There were a group of people, much like there are today, who see this country's economy as a zero sum game. There's only so much to go around and if we don't "protect" ourselves from the great unwashed masses, we'll be overrun and subsumed by un-American peoples.
  
  That idea was a load of bunk then and it's a load of bunk now. Our economy is only limited by the creativity of our people and our ability to build successful enterprises. The more people we have, the more creative people build successful enterprises on US soil and the better off the common man is. Where we get ourselves into trouble is this horribly misguided "multiculturalism" some have embraced in this country. That's a sure way to higher crime and a more divisive society.
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  SweetiePieposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Children have been indoctrinated since the beginning of time, but not to the level that you believe either. I do not think everything is so extreme, or outlandish.
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  ledefensetechposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Of course you don't that's your indoctrination talking.
  
  To a certain point you are correct. But again we differ in our view of natural law. I believe that there are certain concrete laws by which, if we live our lives according to them, promote societal harmony and increase civilized behaviors among the population. Your stance has always been one that is much more relative and situational.
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  SweetiePieposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Stop with the insults, you are indoctrinated yourself in many ways. I actually have a very diverse way of seeing the world, and I am very intellectual despite your insults. I simply do not cower and take on your worldview.
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  ledefensetechposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Settle down, it was a joke, not an insult. Jeez, you really are touchy aren't you?
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  SweetiePieposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I am perfectly calm actually. No, I just actually have to stick up for myself. My mistake to come to this forum anyway. I have better things to do with my time. Anyway, it does not matter what I think anyway, I doubt anyone here cares.
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  Mishaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  True dat
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  SweetiePieposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I was not talking to you. Anyway, I am sure there are lots of people who love my opinions here. Much as you do not like it, I do actually have some friends on Hubpages.
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  Mishaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Not sure why did you decide I do not like you having friends here? In fact I am quite happy for you.
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  SweetiePieposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Honestly it is a bit rude to intercede in a comment I was making to someone else. You like to make people feel unwelcome Misha. However, in the end I am too spunky and kind hearted to care really. Did not exactly appreciate your little thread about Lita either, but I did not give you a fuss about it either.
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  Mishaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  My thread about Lita? Don't remember one.
  
  And forums are a common conversation space, and I am free to answer any post or part of a post I want - as well as you.
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  SweetiePieposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Forums are for public viewing, but it was obvious that I was not addressing you. Anyway, I was referring to the key word thread, and might I add Lita was actually an enjoyable person on this forum. She has her own opinions about Hubpages, which you simply do not share. Lita is my friend, and I just want people to know I value what she has to say about many things.
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  Mishaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  This thread was not about Lita, it was about funny keywords, and Lita happened to be one of them. Since you won;t believe me anyway, here is the screenshot of my GA page:
  
  And frankly, if you share her opinion about HP, I cannot help wondering what keeps you here.
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  SweetiePieposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I do not 100% percent share her opinions because some of those are her personal ones. She is still my friend, and I always enjoy reading her writing. You do not even know why she wrote what she wrote, but I am sure she has her reasons.
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  cosetteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  oh actually he didn't make a thread about Lita. he made a thread about keywords, and her name came up in the search. then i asked about her because i hadn't seen her around, so that is how that came about. but i don't think he said anything bad about her. i miss her too. she was a good writer. i know she went through a very hard time here with another poster, which is unfortunate
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  SweetiePieposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You know the thread is not about her completely, but the how there is a fresh air thing because she is gone, talk about lack of consideration. That is just his opinion, and I would suggest people keep in mind there are two sides to ever story. This forum is not always the most welcoming place, and to be honest that is the only reason I said anything. I still talk to Lita actually, and she is doing great.
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  wordscribe41posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I miss Lita, too. I'm glad to hear she's doing well. She's an incredibly talented and intelligent woman. I hope she comes back. Hi SweetiePie.
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  SweetiePieposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Wordscribe! Lita is not coming back, but she has moved on to her own projects .
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  wordscribe41posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That's sad. I agree with Cosette, she was one of the Hubbers I admired. I still do. We had a funny night with HubTub together.
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  rebekahELLEposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I miss her too, she's a highly intelligent woman and some could not relate to her in that regard, so they criticize, it happens.
  I'm sure she's doing fine.
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  Mishaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks Cosette,but I did say a couple of words about me enjoying HP more without her, and this is how I feel
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  Sab Ohposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Did you just call yourself intellectual? That seems like the kind of thing that people inspire others to say about them by their words and actions. I mean, does a comedian stand up at a club and say "I'm funny!" and expect anyone to buy it? That attitude strikes me as very odd.
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  SweetiePieposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I know I am intellectual, and I do not need others to confirm that. I know what I know, and I am very bright .
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  Sab Ohposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Don't you see how that doesn't mean much when you simply declare it about yourself? I can't imagine how you grew up that this kind of thinking makes any sense to you.
  
  If I say "I'm 8 feet tall," does that make me 8 feet tall?
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  SweetiePieposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Actually I have had many people tell me this, and I know it myself. Anyway, I do not cower to people who try to make others feel like second class citizens .
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  Madame Xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You've just entered the twilight zone
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  SweetiePieposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  See I know I am intelligent, and anyone that tries to make others feel that they should not hold their head high, well you just have to wonder.
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  Madame Xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Tech, I agree with you for the most part but I don't think it's about "not enough to go around". What we have to "protect" ourselves from is people who come to this country and don't understand our system of government or what kind of sacrifices are required to stay free.
  
  I mean the small stuff, the everyday stuff. The going-to-the-matt with some petty govt bureaucrat over their abuse of power "just because". A lot of immigrants don't want to, and don't know how to keep these petty little jerks in line.
  
  So yeah, in one sense we are "overrun". And while I welcome people from other places the onus in on them to become American in the truest sense of the word. Otherwise they can just stay home.
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  ledefensetechposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Madam, we are flooded with citizens who don't understand our form of government, those are the people we should really fear, not immigrants. Immigrants at least, have to show some rudimentary knowledge of American history and our theory of government. In many cases they know much more than native born Americans.
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  Madame Xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah Tech, and those "citizens" came from immigrants who never bothered to find their spines. You don't just come here and get to "be free" - you have to work at it. But a lot of them figure that the job of getting here was all they had to do.
  
  But I do agree that there are a lot a lot of lazy people who just figure that there will always be someone else to do the dirty work.
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  ledefensetechposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I think our immigrants are more willing to fight for freedom than you think. At least the ones from former Soviet Bloc countries. They have, after all, lived the nightmare. Look around, there are plenty of citizens who want to rush headlong into the dubious salvation of socialism. Not as many as there once were, I think , but we still have a long way to go.
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  Madame Xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, you have have named the one group who truly appreciates what America is about especially because they've been through it already
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Madame Xposted 13 years ago
Hello Misha
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Mishaposted 13 years ago
Hello Ma'am
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Madame Xposted 13 years ago
"Humility, thou art a jewel"
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  SweetiePieposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I do not have to be humble, especially when others are telling me I should think less of myself. Anyway, maybe you should try to be more uplifting, and less disparaging by making little remarks about how anyone that has healthy self-esteem is Twilight Zone.
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  Madame Xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  SP, you bring this on yourself. If you KNOW you're so intelligent you wouldn't have to keep telling everyone you are.
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  SweetiePieposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I do know I am intelligent, and I am well within my rights to say it. I bring nothing on myself, it is just that some people are not kind hearted as me . You like to group attack, and I did nothing wrong here . Simply said Lita is my friend, and I value her insights. I do not agree with everything she says because I am not in her mind, but I do take exception to others who declare she is not a valuable asset, or was not a valuable asset. Anyone who group attacks, well they have unsolved issues with junior high.
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  Sab Ohposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "I do know I am intelligent, and I am well within my rights to say it. I bring nothing on myself, it is just that some people are not kind hearted as me"
  
  I can't believe there are people who really think this way. I thought this was just the stuff of bad movie dialog
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Mishaposted 13 years ago
* biting on his tongue*
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SweetiePieposted 13 years ago
At least I can stand up for myself even when several people try to poke fun at me. That is a true sign of my maturity to be honest. Implying someone is twilight zone, or thinking that they should not know they are intellectual is all a bit silly.
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ledefensetechposted 13 years ago
Rather germane wouldn't you say?
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cosetteposted 13 years ago
i'm glad. i have a lot of respect for professional writers, and she was also a great hubber.
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cosetteposted 13 years ago
oh well that is because she was being followed around all the time and it was hard to read all that, i know. i hate to see situations like that.
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cosetteposted 13 years ago
hmm too bad. she was one of the first hubbers i noticed when i came here. i was like, in awe of some hubbers, and she was one of them.
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