Some Questions About the Israel-Hamas War that Need Answers
The world is witnessing a war again, the Israel-Hamas war. The heart-wrenching pictures of death and devastation have already scarred our hearts and wounded the world in a fatal way.
We all know that a war is ugly always. However, in modern times, we at least have a responsibility to ensure that civilians do not get caught in the crossfire. Isn’t Mossad such an effective intelligence unit? Can’t they find and eliminate the leaders of Hamas, or those who are directly responsible for the carnage on October 7 and the succeeding days in Israel, and eliminate them while leaving aside the innocent citizens of Gaza? You watch all these American movies where they are so smart that they kill and capture the terrorists without harming the civilians using technology, and expertise. Where are those American experts, hostage negotiators, war strategists with a big heart, and commandos and marines who care? Or what is all this technological finesse that Israel and the US claims that they have developed for?
So many questions abound in all the people who have some sanity left in their minds. Why such an extravagant waste of human life, children killed on both sides in the most horrible ways?
How can one justify waging a political war by the means of terrorism, which exactly Hamas is doing. Instead, using all the resources that they have in their hands, as is proven by the number of rockets and war infrastructure that they have developed, why don’t they wage a propaganda war across the world to bring the world’s attention to the plight of the people of Gaza? The entire Arab world is so mighty that if they decide to bring the Palestine issue to the mainstream debate, they can easily do that.
Please, let us put this escalation to ‘good’ use at least once. Let us find a solution this time so that all the lives lost are not in vain. There are so many people on both sides who are sane and wise. Can the UN form an intervention group comprising such people who have influence, power and a strong moral foundation, on both sides? Can such people sit together, talk to both sides, and do not stop till a solution emerges, please?
Why do a minority terrorist group or a small group of politicians and their vested interests get to decide the fate of millions in our world that is claiming to be a civilisation?"War is a place where young people who don't know each other and don't hate each other, kill each other, based on decisions made by old people who know each other and hate each other, but don't kill each other... ” - Paul Valéry.
That's all I have for now, but I will get back to you.I was taught that wars are fought for economic reasons, but now I believe they are fought to have control over land. If you look at Putin and Ukraine, Putin wants the land back for Mother Russia.
The same thing with Palestine and Israel. Netanyahu and the Israeli's settlers think Palestine belongs to Israel, while the Palestinians want their part of of the land to be for them. People make borders, not nature. Israel has made many borders to control the Palestinians, so they can colonize Palestinian land.Jimmy Carter said Palestinians Gaza is the worlds largest open air prison. To be colonized sounds nice. In 1500s only 1.5% Jew's and 98,5 non Jew's in Israel. Today 74,% Jew's and 80% of them are Zionist. Noone is allowed to be anti Zionist or an American gets fired.
"Why do a minority terrorist group or a small group of politicians and their vested interests get to decide the fate of millions in our world that is claiming to be a civilization?"
The situation where a minority terrorist group or a small group of politicians and their vested interests appear to wield disproportionate power and influence over the fate of millions in our supposedly civilized world is a complex issue that should raise concerns about the fragility of democratic and societal structures. What contributes to this phenomenon?
Perhaps the imbalance of power and resources can grant small groups the ability to exert significant influence over another group. Whether through unacceptable tactics, financial control, or manipulation of public opinion, these groups can disproportionately affect the lives of us all.
Also, systemic flaws within political systems, including corruption and the concentration of power, can enable a select few to manipulate decision-making processes in their favor. This can undermine the principles of democracy and accountability.
Lastly, the media and information landscape play a crucial role, as distorted narratives and misinformation can sway public opinion in favor of these groups. To address these challenges and ensure a more equitable world, it's essential to strengthen democratic institutions, promote transparency, combat corruption, and foster a media environment that values truth and objectivity.
This issue underscores the ongoing need for vigilance and reform within our global civilization to ensure that the interests of the many are not overshadowed by the few.Sharlee: You have done a wonderful job of generalizing the ideals of what it would take to bring peace to worn-torn countries and regions. You have even covered not only the good aspects but also the bad ones. You also presented it from both the political side as well as the human side.
However, here is an article I wrote about six years ago that still applies to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict today.
https://discover.hubpages.com/politics/ … t-ConflictThat was an excellent comment. Why and how can you support Trump and MAGA relative to that?
Your sounding more like a classic liberal
Finally have a concrete answer for that one.
Support for Trump, versus support for Biden... I want to keep the context clear that is what we are discussing.
As I said... bout four years ago when discussing why Biden was the worst of all nominees to choose from, he is "the establishment" he is the opposite of "We the People".
So, I finally found something that helps explain "the establishment":
Patrick Bet-David Deconstructs BlackRock's Influence and ESG Ratings
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mvh4o6x3-GQ
Understanding who pulls the strings and how, helps define "the establishment" other than merely saying Financial Institutions and International Corporations and the Military Industrial Complex.
What is Trump then?
He is NOT "the establishment", he is not going to do what any of them want him to do. This is why he was eviscerated by them in the MSM, by the politicians who they control, by "the establishment".
Trump is a lot of things, good, bad... whatever... but one thing he is not, is a puppet that is going to do whatever he is told to do. He is a guy who did not want to be responsible for millions of people dying in a war(s) that could be easily avoided. If nothing else.
Which is more than we can say for the Administration we have today.The problem, Ken, is that Trump's so-called independent views and actions have shown themselves as authoritarian and dictatorial. I will accept the status quo any time over that option. Trump and his standalone values are worse than the "puppet" in my mind. Trump was just in office when these things were not occurring, I would certainly not give him any credit for the fact that they did not occur.
I will check out your video and let you know....Things did not occur, because he chose not to make the choices which would have led to those things.
Authoritarian and dictatorial how?
In order to put into context my statements you must first watch the video which explains the corporate totalitarianism that most do not recognize.
Another good watch is below, longer perhaps... so I suggest dropping in at the 14 minute mark and hear what it says for a few moments. This information helps explain what is going on in America, and across much of the world today:
1984 Tried To Warn You
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZOWRbixDPwThis pretty well speaks of what I think of Trump and the people who support him
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/ … ism-420681
The video piece is just an anti-Soros rant, has that not always been the boogie man for your standard Right-winger?
The establishment is more than the sum of 25 years. Certainly we have problems with excess corporate power. My issue with you is the cause and the solution. People like Trump are the cause, so I can hardly expect a solution from them.I might point out that without the whole hearted cooperation from politicians that corporate power would not exist. If they cannot buy the votes they want they have very little power over anything.
And no, Trump was not the cause of that cooperation.The video did not specifically target Soros alone. BlackRock, Vanguard, etc. are of bigger concern, they control 88% of the market. The richest 25 people have more wealth than the bottom 50%, etc.
All I am doing is explaining how your politicians, and your Party, is nothing more than yes-men to those who are causing the world's problems so that they can enrich themselves more.
If you refuse to see this, and continue to try to label those who expose it as rightwingers or trumpsters, well, so be it. I'll refrain from further bothering you with Wrongthink.
Do you not find that much of what I mentioned remains pertinent in our current political climate? Although these ideas are not novel, you inquire about my support for an America-first agenda. Did we not witness a more transparent White House, and an administration that, in my perspective, tackled issues affecting Americans while also managing foreign affairs, particularly in trade and peacekeeping?
It seems vital to focus on the present, especially when America requires attention. We can't be good neighbors if our own house is not in order. Consequently, I am currently seeking a new president who can address our challenges and work to prevent exacerbating problems they may struggle to resolve.
Do you feel we are headed in the right direction?"Did we not witness a more transparent White House, and an administration that, in my perspective, tackled issues affecting Americans while also managing foreign affairs, particularly in trade and peacekeeping?"
-------
Not from my perspective, that is where we disagree.
I could see room for improvement but the past Administration would not be an example/model of what that would look like.What specific challenges or negative aspects of the previous administration's governance did you observe? I understand that there was a notable ideological divide in society, but what aspects of Trump's performance as president do you consider to have been detrimental to the country? ( not his demeanor or his what some feel lack of character, but his performance in the job)
There is always room for improvement, to strive for a better Nation.Jumping in . . . I had great expectations Trump would get something significant on infrastructure done. He didn't.
The entire establishment was against him, they could barely keep the mask on, they really didn't, it was fairly clear the machine was set to depose him and his efforts before he was even sworn in.
The fact that a record number of Republican Congressmen chose to retire rather than seek re-election in 2018, to ensure Democrats regained control of Congress, tells you a lot about how deep the roots go in DC.
I like to compare the two... Obama appeared to be a man of the people and was adored by most, was articulate as any since Reagan, was suave like Clinton... but he was a tool of the establishment as much as any.
Trump was brash, arrogant, narcissistic, unapologetic.. to the more educated and refined he came across as a deplorable buffoon who was a disgrace... but he was more a 'man of the people' and did more to further the average American's interests than any President in the last quarter century.Good point -- During his election campaign, Trump made a commitment to collaborate with Congress on the matter. However, given that the Republicans held the majority in the House of Representatives before the 2018 Midterm Election, Trump refrained from pursuing any congressional initiatives for infrastructure spending. He was well aware of the historical GOP stance against government spending, considering it contradictory to their ideology. Trump seemed to weigh his decisions and pick his wars carefully.
Plus, he had a full plate with other pressing matters and most likely recognized that pushing for an infrastructure spending bill would be a challenging endeavor. One he would not win. Having already encountered difficulties with the ACA Healthcare law, which was one of his failed initiatives, he, as a non-ideological pragmatist, opted to avoid wading into another highly contentious and ideologically charged issue, such as infrastructure spending. One must keep in mind, that Trump is a businessman man knew what a losing battle looked like. He did make some efforts to work with states with several Federal initiatives to bring up infrastructure. https://www.epa.gov/newsreleases/epa-ad … ccelerated
Consequently, this particular campaign promise was not fulfilled to any great extent.That is fine and dandy, but I am still disappointed.
Hey, me too --- but I am a bit more worried at this point about all the cash we are borrowing to support two wars that would seem not our responsibility.
We have such a smorgasbord of gigantic problems infrastructure has moved to the bottom of my list. My priority is threading water until we can get new leadership and a more American-first agenda.
But, I would love to see some of the money Biden won for infrastructure make its way to projects. I am sure some have, but I have not been interested in following up.Me too, that people still believe in Presidents. Where a third of the economy is drugs.
I like the Mexican President and the drug cartel police, where I only pay 10% tax at most. Only thing don't deal drugs.
Simple
"What specific challenges or negative aspects of the previous administration's governance did you observe?"
Let me count the ways, and remember, Sharlee, you asked for it as I always have always said, Trump is a phony populist.
https://www.epi.org/publication/50-reasons/
Here is another even closer to home. Another morsel of agony..
https://www.pewresearch.org/2021/01/29/ … residency/
Being found lacking in character and appropriate comportment is part of the President's "Bully Pulpit. A man whose words, for good or ill, resonates around the globe. So, stupid and insensitive remarks that he makes will be a demerit against him. These concepts are part of his job description.This is from Wikipedia, highlighting major foreign policy events happening during Trump's regime. "
U.S. foreign policy during the presidency of Donald Trump (2017–2021) was noted for its unpredictability and reneging on prior international commitments,[1][2][3][4] upending diplomatic conventions, embracing political and economic brinkmanship with most adversaries, and stronger relations with traditional allies. Trump's "America First" policy pursued nationalist foreign policy objectives and prioritized bilateral relations over multinational agreements.[5][1] As president, Trump described himself as a nationalist[6] while espousing views that have been characterized as isolationist, non-interventionist, and protectionist,[7][8][9] although the "isolationist" label has been disputed.[10][11] He personally praised some populist, neo-nationalist, illiberal, and authoritarian governments, while antagonizing others, even as administration diplomats nominally continued to pursue pro-democracy ideals abroad.[12]
Upon taking office, Trump relied more on military personnel than any previous administration since the presidency of Ronald Reagan,[13] and more on White House advisors than on the State Department to advise him on international relations; for example, assigning policy related to the Middle East peace process to senior advisor Jared Kushner.[14] Former ExxonMobil CEO Rex Tillerson was Trump's first Secretary of State, appointed for his experience and contacts in many other countries, particularly Russia.[15] During Tillerson's tenure at the State Department, budget cuts and Trump's reliance on White House advisors led to media reports that the State Department had been noticeably "sidelined".[14] Former CIA director Mike Pompeo succeeded Tillerson as Secretary of State in April 2018.[16]
As part of the "America First" policy, Trump's administration reevaluated many of the U.S.'s prior multinational commitments, including withdrawing from the Trans-Pacific Partnership, the INF Treaty, the UNHRC and UNESCO, and the Paris Agreement, and urging NATO allies to increase burden sharing. The Trump administration introduced a ban on travel from certain Muslim-majority countries and recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. He sought rapprochement with North Korean leader Kim Jong-un as part of efforts to denuclearize the Korean Peninsula, though North Korea expanded its nuclear arsenal. Trump withdrew the U.S. from the Iran nuclear deal and increased sanctions against Iran, precipitating several confrontations with Iran. He increased belligerence against Venezuela and Nicaragua while overseeing drawdowns of U.S. troops from Syria, Iraq, Somalia, and Afghanistan, while agreeing with the Taliban for a conditional full withdrawal from Afghanistan in 2021. He also increased U.S. drone strikes in Africa,[17] and continued the U.S.'s war on terror and against the Islamic State terror organization, including overseeing the death of its leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi in October 2019.[18] In January 2020, Trump ordered a drone strike in Iraq which assassinated Iranian major general Qasem Soleimani.
The Trump administration often used economic pressure to advance its foreign policy goals.[19] Trump's import tariffs agitated trade partners and triggered a trade war with China. He also signed the United States–Mexico–Canada Agreement (USMCA), a continental trade agreement which replaced NAFTA. Trump's administration brokered the Kosovo–Serbia agreement, the Abraham Accords, and subsequent Arab-Israeli normalization agreements with Bahrain, Sudan and Morocco."Too bad you couldn't site a better source.
When I write articles for various publications I'm not permitted to use Wikepedia as a source.
It is known for being unreliable.Any source can be biased to different degrees. I just wanted to remind all in this discussion about the major milestone events at that time, on the foreign policy front.
Readmikenow: He could have done worse. He could have used FOXNEWS.
Because that same comment can be used to describe what is going on here, in America, today. Especially regarding how the media is used to sway people to support a minority of corrupt individuals that can disproportionately affect the lives of us all.
Things in America today have become severe, more so than most older people such as ourselves recognize. The focus has not been on us so much as it has been on the younger generations.
Those of us who are older, do not see much on how the young (under 25) have been assaulted by the 1984 Goerge Orwellian like Subjectivism that will allow them to be controlled by an authoritarian overpowered Federal Government which we see spreading out to encompass every facet of our lives today.
Subjectivism is the doctrine that "our own mental activity is the only unquestionable fact of our experience", instead of shared or communal, and that there is no external or objective truth.
There are not two sexes... there are 72. Men who say they are women must be accepted as women. Open Borders are "secure". Crime is not crime, etc. etc.
The assault on what had always been concrete fact...stealing being a crime, a human being a human (rather than a furry make-believe identity) is very real, especially for the young.
Hamas is designated as a terrorist organization by several countries, including the United States, Israel, Canada, the European Union, and others. However, it's essential to note that the issue of the Israel-Hamas conflict is highly complex and has diverse perspectives. The call for a peaceful resolution is a shared concern, and many hope for a solution that prevents further loss of innocent lives.
True. Wish the world could see beyond violent solutions. It is the same tragic drama unfolding century after century.
Certainly hate can lead to murder. Although I remember more physical bullies and violence in my youth. I learn fighting skills and managed to protect myself and my love ones circle, without seriously harming anyone. And today, I see alot more online, media, political fighting and divided people. Yet less deaths in wars and actually physical violence because we do have stronger laws against violence than ever before. Today, I've learn the art of not fighting with a thicker skin, because people can get hurt. The weaker people are, the more dangerous they are. Encourage peace and love for every opportunity we encounter conflicts in an over ego world.
There is an ancient narrative about a promised land. Then, there is the issue of control over land and water sources in modern times. One simple fact that Israelis must realise is that you cannot live in peace if you have an oppressed, deprived, and thirsty neighbour. No doubt, Israel has been an oppressive regime, almost a terrorist state, and great injustice was done to the Palestinians. However, Israel and its people have a right to exist. They must not be punished for what happened in history and what their politicians with extreme views do. And every human life is equally precious. The collective punishment of the Gazans for what Hamas did is totally unjustified. The two-nation proposal of the UN was a beautiful idea. Jerusalem, which is an important religious place for the Jews, Christians, and Muslims, might have become a model of religious syncretism, a place where all can come together and worship. Why are we not able to celebrate our diversity instead of being divided by it is a question that humanity must start pondering in-depth. I think if the world's political leadership wills so, we can have a far more equal and peaceful society.
Being mini anarchist and non religious has been the most lovely and peaceful state of well being that I could imagine. After the blues and red people fight each other to total exhaustion.
Maybe they will turn into together purple My daughter made an animated film story called purple people. She ended up scraping the film.Here is an article I wrote about six years ago about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, but it still apples today.
https://discover.hubpages.com/politics/ … t-ConflictLooks like a total opposite landmass reverse from Palestinians in 1946 to Jewish/Zionist 1948. They simply won't get along, best to decide in the division of the land territories and systems.
Thank you. Will read the article and get back to you.
Castlepaloma, as you said, this is absurd violence after some point which has already passed.
I would like to make some points.
How many Israelites live in Gaza?
Zero...none. Thousands of Israelites left or were removed from Gaza in 2007 in an effort for peace. Why does everyone forget this effort?
Why does Hamas exist in Gaza? They were voted in by the citizens of Gaza who voted out the peaceful Palestinian Authority.
The United States as well as the world has given millions of dollars to the Hamas government since 2007 for hospitals, schools, and infrastructure. What did they do with the money? They purchased weapons, dug terrorist tunnels, etc. There are videos by Hamas of them turning construction materials donated to them into weapons. Hamas does not care about its citizens. That is why they put their weapons in the basements of hospitals and schools.
It is in the Hamas Charter to kill Jews and destroy Israel.
The Citizens of Gaza come and go as they please from Gaza. Thousands of people in Gaza have work visas and travel to Israel for work daily. They can be in Israel but Israelites cannot go into Gaza. That is how it is.
I have a relative by marriage who is from Israel. I've been there a few times. It is not as the world thinks it is there.
If Israel put down their weapons there would be millions of dead Jews. If Hamas put down their weapons there would be peace.So well said. It has now become the rant to many to label Israel as warmongers. History shows each and every conflict they were in, they were badly provoked. I am glad you shared your own experience. Because it is much like my own. Jews are peaceful human beings.
The rhetoric that is now being spread is unfounded and dangerous. You stand out and should be proud to have shared your truth.Jews are peaceful human beings.
---------
That is a generalization that I would not necessarily support. It is a stereotype I have heard since I was a kid.Please take some time to look at the past conflicts that Israel has been a part of. You will see they were provoked. There is no doubt that they were not wanted from the very first days and that they have fought to keep Israel. But, they are peaceful people.
In my view, I find them to be very strong people who thrived after the war. A war that took so much from them. They kept their innate values and thrived.Were the Jewish settments after WWII created with the cooperation of people already living there? So, I guess that I will have to separate the "good Jewish people" from the Israeli government who continues to allow massive settlements in disputed territory to the detriment of the Palestinians. This is and has been an ongoing complaint going back decades. Hamas or no Hamas, the Israeli Government is still complicit in these matters. Even the US state department found this an issue of concern. Obama was the only one who want a more even handed approach in the region while Trump and now Biden, wanted to suck up to Israel at any or all costs. While their government absconds with land, they in fact are and is part of what can be called provocation.
Not everybody subscribes to their fables which basically says, we are entitled to it all and you are entitled to nothing. What a great foundation to start negotiations.
Any people as a whole is peaceful by nature. There will be a tiny minority who want to create trouble in any society. And leaders who lack farsightedness and vision and pursue narrow interests. Then, there are matters of colonisation, the histories of the Jewish holocaust and displacement of Palestinians, religious differences, fundamentalism, resistance, diplomacy, and of course terrorism involved. If you put 2.1 million people in a congested box, deprived of mobility and opportunities for a better life, radicalisation potentially happens. But that is no excuse for terrorism and harming innocent people. Maybe Israel could have been more involved in providing education in Gaza and empowering the younger generation there at least. Maybe the international community could have intervened for a two-state solution in a more sincere way. At least from now onwards, the international community together with Israel and Palestine, as two free nations, and the people of both 'countries', need to work towards better solutions and peace; try to heal and forgive each other, which has become very difficult and almost impossible now. But we owe at least that to the children of both sides. I copied this picture from 'The Guardian' and kept it with me, which for me, equally represents the pain of both sides though this picture is from one side.
Courtesy: The Guardian
Also, if any of you are interested, please read the book by Paola Caridi. The name of the book is, 'Hamas: From Resistance to Regime'. She, by a tiny fraction, stops short of calling Hamas a terrorist group but it is implied in her words that Hamas has turned into one. Also, in her interview with Karan Thapar, a brilliant and very sensible Indian journalist (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtGyBoVmbSI), she shares the curious information that the political leadership of Hamas is somewhat cut off from the decisions that the military leadership of Hamas makes. But she also says that the political leadership is complicit. Let me make it clear that I am in no way related to this author, her interviewer, or the TV channel link I am sharing. The interview was helpful for me as I was trying to understand the meaning and logic (or lack of logic) of all this violence erupting."If you put 2.1 million people in a congested box, deprived of mobility and opportunities for a better life, radicalisation potentially happens."
What are you talking about? There are two ports of entry into Gaza. There is one in Israel as well as one in Egypt. People from Gaza daily travel into Israel for work. They do this by the thousands. How is this putting them in box? Remember, Palestinians from Gaza can freely travel into Israel. Israelites are forbidden from going into Gaza.
"The Israeli Coordination of Government Activities in the Territories (COGAT) said last month that it had issued about 18,500 work permits to Palestinians in Gaza."
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/2 … -west-bank
The only people depriving the people of Gaza of a better life is Hamas.
Hamas doesn't care about it's own people.
That is a fact.About 70% of Gaza citizens are refugees from their own land of Palestine since 1948. Israel has fought 8 surrounding counties and made an agreement with Egypt on conditions of border crossing. There is about 100,000 Palestinians refugees already in Egypt and 100,000s refugees in surrounding counties. Gaza citizens can not go in or out of their totally Israel occupation concentration camp. As you know the average citizens is very ignorance about politics for when they voted for Humas. They were wrong just like us on how we voted for Trudeau or Biden. Personally they all are pro wrestling tag team magalomanics for the head of the snake financial mad greedy institutions. I declare my private independent from them. We the people, alway end up the true consciousness and the true leaders of our nations and world. Many leaders from western nations are calling to stomp out Gaza. Like Hitler aim to stomped out gays, Jew's and atheist. Guess what they came back stronger. Yet, even more so humanitarian like countries are calling for pro Palestinians. And maybe a larger protest than the 9/11 false flag war in protest worldwide. I find all major wars false flag and hell on earth, a mental illness beyond compare. This is the most dangerous situation since war world 2. Israel actually using many illegal world war 2 tactics now. US can not afford economically two major wars at the same. Along with other start ups with Russia and China. They will spend themselves to death like USSR did. And poverty is the ultimate killer along with stupidity.
"Gaza citizens can not go in or out of their totally Israel occupation concentration camp."
This is a blatant lie and falsehood. Why would you say something so demonstratably false? You have problems with reality.
READ
"The Israeli Coordination of Government Activities in the Territories (COGAT) said last month that it had issued about 18,500 work permits to Palestinians in Gaza."
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/2 … -west-bank
Thousands of people from Gaza are in Israel daily. Many for work and many for other reasons. AGAIN, Israelites are NOT permitted in Gaza. I once flew into Tel Aviv and had a conversation with a very nice Palestinian man going to visit his family in Gaza.
The goal is to destroy Hamas, and they need to be destroyed.I am not sure why he is lying here but he is not alone. There are also people in the US congress that are lying like this. I doubt any of them have been to Israel or Palestine or are aware of the large number of Palestinians that work in Israel.
It is a fact that there are some 18,000 Gaza residents who have work permits to work in Israel. Many were and are trapped in Israel after the attack, and are being placed in the West Bank.
https://www.france24.com/en/tv-shows/bu … eturn-homeThe Israeli's who occupy Palestinian territories believe it is their God-given right to that land. Therefore, they have a history of bulldozing down Palestinian houses, making refugees of people in their own land, and then rebuilding them for their own houses. It's called resettlement of the land and occupation by the Israeli's who live there.
A world war II general said, the only way you can control a city is to turn it to rubble and that is precisely what Netanyahu has done to be able to find the hostages. But it also provides him a way of ridding the innocent Palestinian people from their own land, again making refugees out of innocent people.
I believe he doesn't want to separate HAMAS from the people. This gives him the excuse he needs to create genocide, the same as what was done to them during WWII. He has cut off electricity, food, and water for those people.
Biden asked him to let them exit into Egypt , but as far as I know there are hundreds of trucks on one side and desperate people on the other side of a closed gate...so the Palestinian people are trapped in their own land and barely surviving at this point. It is sad, but the more of them who die,the more the Israeli's can rebuild rubble into houses for themselves.Why do you think that Israel has anything to do with what the Egyptians will allow on their border with Gaza? As far as I understand the situation Biden needs to speak to the Egyptians if he wants the boder open, not the Israelis.
"I believe he doesn't want to separate HAMAS from the people. This gives him the excuse he needs to create genocide, the same as what was done to them during WWII. He has cut off electricity, food, and water for those people."
I disagree, The Jewish people are peaceful, and yes when provoked they will fight back. They have held off now for over two weeks, and have warned the people of Gaza that they will be coming in to weed out Hamas and get back the people that were taken from their homes.
Yes, they have cut off water, and electricity. I would think that they were good neighbors to even have ever supplied the people of Gaza with the fruits of their infrastructure. The people of Gaza are backward and never thrived as those in the West Bank Palestinians, who have chosen to work side by side with Israel to make the West Bank a good place to live and work.
Over 20,000 Gaza citizens work in Israel, this somewhat makes me believe they hope to also live and coincide with Israel. In my view, at this point, this is a war, and in war, many are injured and killed. Israel has been wise to give the citizens the option to leave for their safety.
Very sad situation. However, the time has passed for this terrorist, time to rid the world of this barbaric human being, and those that support them. If Israel does not do the job, they will forever be attacked.
Biden asked Eygpt to let Americans exit Gaza, he also asked that they let in aid for the citizens of Gaza. They have complied with both. They will not allow Palestinians in. What I have read is --- "Jordan and Egypt have said they won't take in Palestinian refugees from Gaza. Experts on the Middle East told Insider that economic and security reasons are at play."
The people of Gaza are known to be warring people, they just are not wanted due to the ideologies they bring with them. They voted for a terrorist organization to govern. As you will note many Gaza citizens who were trapped in Israel on the day of the attack were allowed to enter the West Bank. They were not killed, they were asked to go to the West Bank. I am not sure how anyone could think Jews would promote any form of genocide--- To each their own.
On a second note, Biden has nothing to say about how a sovereign nation conducts its war. I am very sure BiBi feels Biden allowed Iran to make billions in oil revenue that is now paying for the missiles and weapons Hamas is using to conduct their war.
I would hope Israel once they have pushed out the terrorists will build a city where terrorists will not exist. They should have no ground to live on if they don't live in peace."I am very sure BiBi feels Biden allowed Iran to make billions in oil revenue that is now paying for the missiles and weapons Hamas is using to conduct their war."
Biden chose to loosen a sanctions in order to try and gain some lost ground in terms of Iran's quest for nuclear weapons.
Is it not concerning that since Trump pulled out of the Comprehensive Plan of Action (JCPOA) which capped Iranian uranium enrichment at 3.67% Weapon-grade uranium is considered to have been enriched above 80%. Oddly, Trump's own administration agreed that Iran was adhering to this deal.
In 2018, Trump withdrew from the deal. Iran has since ramped up uranium enrichment at a pace not seen since its signing. Trump's sanctions allowed Iran to get closer to nuclear weapons than ever before. This war between Israel and Hamas will mean little if Iran obtains nuclear capability and thanks to trump it looks like they're pretty darn close.
Trump sanctions hit Iran hard but oil isn't their only income.
" But over the past four decades, Iran has had a lot of experience with sanctions and has learned to withstand their impact. And it's no different this time. The Iranian economy is a very diverse economy, and manufacturing is really one of the most important areas,"
https://www.npr.org/2020/01/16/79678102 … m-pressure
I think we have to stop simplifying things to the lowest common denominator. Hamas’ attack on Israel is bringing pressure on Biden to clamp down on Iranian oil exports, even at the risk of provoking a spike in world oil prices. Oh just another thing to blame on Biden. Nuclear weapons in the hands of Iran or cheap gas, hmm? Far too many Americans are dim-witted enough to choose the latter.
God only knows what would be happening right now if we had Trump in office.Guess we will never know. But we are living and paying for all of Biden's blunders. As are the people of Israel.
Any specific evidence that Hamas’ decisions have anything to do with Biden? Can we ever move beyond party loyalty?
Surely Hamas’ relationship to the Israeli government is far more important in its decision-making than vague perceptions about Biden’s intestinal fortitude? It would be ludicrous to think otherwise. Which raises an important question that the GOP candidates ought to answer: If only “strength” can deter a terrorist attack of this kind, do they think Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has been too soft on the West Bank and Gaza? Is his government, which is full of far-right extremists in key positions, too indulgent and weak?
Of course not. By Republican standards, Netanyahu’s government is brimming with strength: cruel, oppressive, indulgent of violent thuggery on the part of settlers, contemptuous of human rights and committed to crushing any Palestinian hopes for self-determination. Clearly, that version of “strength” has not given Israelis the security they sought.
Nor was Hamas deterred by what they know and everyone knows will be a furious Israeli counterattack. If history is any guide, the Israeli offensive will bring the deaths of multiple Palestinians for every Israeli murdered.
Here in America we also fall prey to an unfortunate tendency of believing that everything that happens anywhere is mostly about us. But it isn’t. Foreign actors have their own motivations, incentives and goals. We might sometimes factor into their calculations, but getting them to do what we want will always be complicated.
If you asked DeSantis, Haley or any of the other Republicans practicing their angry faces in their bathroom mirrors even the most basic questions about Hamas...who leads it, what its history is, what its goals are, how we might assess its next moves it would be a shock if any of them had the barest idea. (Americans in general can't answer these questions either) And if they were president right now, what would they do to demonstrate their strength? Drop nuclear bombs on Gaza? Find some new way to punish Iran? Trump already walked away from the agreement that had been constraining Iran’s nuclear program; you’ll recall that he very strongly claimed Iran would come crawling back and give us every concession we wanted. It didn’t happen. They don't care. They are certainly not influenced by us as much as we like to believe.
No, if they were president they’d be doing pretty much what Biden is doing: reiterating America’s support for Israel, condemning Hamas, and sending more military aid. They’d just say they were doing it strongly, with strength and strongness. And it would make no difference at all. Blah blah and blah.I can honestly say I disagree with every point you shared. In my view, Biden has inadvertently started a war due to his inability to think and make sensible thought-out decisions. All the dancing about could ever divert from the mistakes he made to ultimately financially support Hamas and Hizballah. He has a great deal of blood on his hands. And the entire world is watching and will in the end point to his ineptness. He needs to be removed.
Not sure how you can continue to make excuses for Biden. However, that is your right.Sharlee: Everybody should read this. It is the text from an article I wrote about six years ago, but still apples today. It is the history of how the Jews and Palestinian have come to the same land.
It takes you from the time of the Zionist Movement to where we are today. In order to understand what is going on today, I suggest you read this to go back through history to understand the motivations of both sides.
The Zionist Movement and the Horse Chestnut
The Zionist Movement started in the 1600's and was about getting the Jewish people to consolidate into one area, preferably Palestine. During World War I, the British and French were fighting the Ottoman Empire.
Theodore Herzel was in charge of the Zionist movement at the same time. The British were in need of acetone to process cordite for their explosives. However, the acetone was made by distilling it from timbers, which were in short supply in Britain. As a result they were importing timbers from America.
At that time, there was a Jewish biochemist, Chaim Weizmann, that was part of the British Ministry and also a Zionist.. He was given the task of developing a cheap way of extracting acetone from other materials. He found that he could distill acetone from horse chestnuts by using a bacteria fermentation process. As a result, the British were able to produce mass quantities of acetone to process cordite for their explosives. Cordite is a propellant that makes artillery shells smokeless so they can't be traced when fired..
This innovation helped them win WWI. As a result, Weizmann became highly recognized by Theodore Herzel, the leader of the Zionist movement, Lord Balfour, the Foreign Secretary of Britain, and Baron Rothschild, a Zionist sympathizer with a lot of money..
It should be noted that later Chaim Weizmann was to become the first President of Israel.
Lord Balfour
The Balfour Declaration
The common interests of Herzel, Wiezmann, Rothschild, and Balfour resulted in the Balfour Declaration of 1917. The motivation for the declaration was three fold.
President Wilson was uncertain about being an ally to Britain, but two of his closest advisors were Zionist
Russia was in a revolution and they wanted to keep them in their war by being sympathetic to the Jewish population.
Britain wanted to attract Jewish financial resources.
The following is the text of the Balfour Declaration.
"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."
Notice it states a "national home" for the Jewish people, not a state or nation. Also in the last sentence it states that, "nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine."
why-israel-and-palestine-are-in-constant-conflict
The Basel Program of 1897
The First Zionist Congress was held in Basel Switzerland in 1897. Theodore Herzel presented the following mission statement for Zionism.
"Zionism aims at establishing for the Jewish people a publicly and legally assured home in Palestine. For the attainment of this purpose, the Congress considers the following means serviceable:
The promotion of the settlement of Jewish agriculturists, artisans, and tradesmen in Palestine.
The federation of all Jews into local or general groups, according to the laws of the various countries.
The strengthening of the Jewish feeling and consciousness.
Preparatory steps for the attainment of those governmental grants which are necessary to the achievement of the Zionist purpose.
It is item four that is pure genius. It can be decoded to mean the Zionist and Israel will have endorsement by other countries in order to become a legitimate country. The Palestinians did not do that. The Balfour Declaration does not call for Palestine to be a legitimate country.
The British Mandate 1920 - 1947
An agreement was made during WWI between the British and the French to divide up the Middle East, after the war. France would have control of Syria and Lebanon and the British would have control over Iraq, Jordan, and Palestine. This agreement was made in secret and was called the Sykes-Picot Pact, named after the creators of the agreement.
The Sykes-Picot Pact was actually implemented after the war. The British were granted possession of Palestine by the League of Nations. With this system, colonial territories were to be administered by a foreign power until the local population was deemed ready for self-rule.
The 1920s and 1930s saw an increased immigration of European Jews into the Palestinian Territory. This was because of a rise of Zionism and ever worsening political conditions for Jews, especially in Germany.
From 1920 to 1947, there were increasing conflicts between the Jewish immigration and the Palestinians, resulting in many battles for land. The British were caught in the middle and in 1948, they gave up control of the Palestinian Territory and gave it to the newly formed United Nations.
in 1947, the United Nations proposed partitioning Palestine into two separate states. But that never happened.
why-israel-and-palestine-are-in-constant-conflict
Passia Center
In 1948, the Arab Armies invaded the land. The map shown below is in French, but it gets the point across.
why-israel-and-palestine-are-in-constant-conflict
Philippe Rekacewicz / Le Monde Diplomatique)
The Israeli Army counter attacks in 1948
The Israeli forces won the 1948 war, but they pushed well beyond the UN-designated borders to claim land that was to have been part of Palestine, including the western half of Jerusalem. They also uprooted and expelled entire Palestinian communities, creating about 700,000 refugees, whose descendants now number 7 million and are still considered refugees.
The 1948 war ended with Israel roughly controlling the territory that you will see marked on today's maps as "Israel"; everything except for the West Bank and Gaza, which is where most Palestinian fled to (many also ended up in refugee camps in neighboring countries) which are today considered the Palestinian territories. The borders between Israel and Palestine have been disputed and fought over ever since. So has the status of those Palestinian refugees and the status of Jerusalem.
As a child, I remember watching T.V. and seeing bulldozers pushing down Palestinian houses and making refugees out of the people living on their own land.
why-israel-and-palestine-are-in-constant-conflict
Philippe Rekacewicz / Le Monde Diplomatique)
The Israeli Land Grab in 1948
1948 - Gaza controlled by Egypt and the West Bank controlled by Jordan
1967 - The Six Day War Israel occupies Gaza, the West Bank, and Syria's Golan Heights which are beyond the borders of the UN partition plan of 1947.
1981 - Israel annex's the Golan Heights and Egypt's Sinai Peninsula
1982 - Israel returns the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt
2005 - Israel Withdraws occupying troops and settlers from Gaza, but maintains full blockade of the territory. pushing Palestinian unemployment up to 40%.
Fatah, Hamas, Hezbollah
We have all heard of the resistance groups that are against Israel's occupation of the Palestinian territory. Here are the major differences:
Fatah - Associated with Palestinian politics - based out of the West Bank - predominantly Sunni Muslim
Hamas - Associated with Palestinian politics - based out of Gaza - predominantly Sunni Muslim
Hezbollah - Based in Lebanon and supported by Iran - predominantly Shia
What they do have in common is they are recognized as terrorists groups by the west and they do not recognize Israel as a nation.
American Support for Israel
The U.S. support for Israel actually started with the Zionist movement. However, it picked up real momentum during the cold war with the Soviet Union. At that time Israel was instrumental in providing intelligence about the Soviets and the Mid-East. The support today takes many forms, including financial, religious and political.
Financial - The U.S. gives Israel 3 billion per year. Seventy four percent of that must be spent on U.S. goods and service including military arms.
Religious - Some Christians believe the second coming of Christ is supposed to happen when all the Jews return to their homeland. Therefore, it is in their best interest to support Israel.
Political - American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) is one of the most influential and powerful lobby groups in the U.S. They have the power to influence congress and presidents by donating money to those who believe in their cause Therefore, influencing the policies that benefit Israel, in their quest to secure their homeland from the Palestinians.
Analysis
After doing the research and analysis on this subject, I realized that one could write a book or a hub on each of these sub-topics. It became a challenge to encapsulate the essence of the history so that I could put all the pieces of the puzzle together in one coherent article. My analysis follows:
The Two State Solution
I don't believe there will ever be a two state solution. The Palestinians want their country back and the Israelis want as much of the Palestinian territory as they can acquire by colonizing, settlements and building blockades, and walls. This will continue on in a give and take basis forever or until one side defeats the other side. The chances of Israel being defeated by any of the so called terrorist groups is none. Israel can protect themselves with a superior military including the "Iron Dome." Here is a link to video of the Iron Dome in action.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p … grYxtQcOCc
Palestinian Dehumanization
The Palestinians have been dehumanized by the Israeli blockades and walls that restrict their economy and quality of life. In the West Bank there are bypass roads for the settlers, but the Palestinians are burdened with a matrix of check points under military control.
Prior to the mass immigration of the Jews into Palestine, the Palestinian people were mainly farmers that toiled in their own land. When the Zionist movement started the Jewish people that settled in the country were much better educated than the Palestinians. Until this day, the Israelis have made a point of keeping Palestinians from improving their education. Palestinians are not allowed to attend Israeli schools.
The Population Density of Gaza
The resistance/terrorist groups don't help matters much as they are hell-bent on destroying Israel. The question is, do they really represent the will of the people? Gaza has a population of 2 million people living in an area 5 miles wide and 25 miles long who are refugees in their own country. That density population is twice that of New York City. The West Bank is also populated with scattered settlers among the Palestinian refugees.
Conclusion
After doing the research to write this piece, it has become clear to me, that the government of Israel is intent on disposing of the Palestinian people by whatever means they can exploit so that they can expand their Jewish state as far as possible. They have made life miserable for the Palestinian people. They provoke war so they have an excuse to destroy Palestinian civilians, their homes villages and buildings. Yes, Hamas has tunnel systems into Israel, but what do people do when they are held captive in their own country. This is all done under the guise of 2,000 years ago, God told the Jews they should return to their promised land.
Sources: Wikipedia Vox, If Americans Knew, BBC News, Huffington Post, New York Times, Jewish Virtual Library, Washington Post, Forbes.com, Passia CenterYour dedication to self promotion never ceases to amaze me.
RMN:
You call it self-promotion, but what do I have to gain from this other than to provide the history of what happened and how it applies to today? I'm sure you are a history buff. Do you dispute this history? I believe everybody should understand the history of this conflict to put everything in proper perspective.
It is important to approach this issue with an understanding, of yes, the complex historical and geopolitical factors that have influenced the situation of the Palestinian people. But we need to look at today, what has not been solved, what has been lost, and what could have possibly been.
History tells so much about why we see war in the region. What it does not tell is why the Palestinians after many hundreds of years do not seek to live in some form of peace. Would a people not at some point hope to move on to thrive, and stop warring?
It is important to approach this question with sensitivity and an understanding of the complex historical and geopolitical factors that have influenced the situation of the Palestinian people.
The Palestinian territories, the West Bank and Gaza Strip, have faced significant challenges due to a long-standing conflict with Israel, and the creation of political instability, and socioeconomic difficulties, due to years of warring. Warring against a Nation that there could be no winning in the end.
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict, as you shared, dates back decades, and has resulted in military occupations, territorial disputes, and security concerns. This long conflict has disrupted economic and social development in the region for the Palestinians and ultimately kept them from thriving in their own land. Yet Israel thrives, due to perseverance, and the hope to build a strong nation.
In my view, they would lay down their weapons for good if they could feel safe. This has been an impossibility due to the Palestinians continuing to battle, decade after decade. Instead of making an attempt to thrive and build on their own. Perhaps realizing they need to live side by side with Jews, to become a civilized thriving nation. It is clear the many wars they have lost, have left them depleted, and with less and less territory. This new conflict will most definitely cause them to lose more space. They will be pushed out, and no one will take them, most likely due to their reputation for being a war-like people. This is already evident. They are not being welcomed into the Nations around them.
They now have even greater limited access to resources, due to the destruction of infrastructure during the many conflicts that have had a negative impact on their economy. They rely on aid to survive due to their many social, religious, and ideologies. Internal political divisions between Palestinian factions, such as Fatah and Hamas, have hindered effective governance and economic development.
All the warring In the case of Gaza has brought a blockade that has significantly restricted the movement of people and goods, which strongly affects the quality of life in the territory. Does Israel need to have borders -- I would say yes they do to protect their citizens against the terrorists.
If the Palestinians had been better neighbors, could there have been peace in the region for all? They lost much of their territory due to provoking Israel into war. This will surely occur once again, in my view, Israel saw firsthand what happened to their ancestors in the holocaust, and this opened old horrific wounds. However, now unlike what happened in the holocaust they can fight back very hard, and they will make sure they rid themselves of those that want to kill them. They most likely will push the Palestinians very far from their borders to prevent them from hurting or killing any more of the citizens of Israel. It is the only common sense thing to do at this juncture.Sharlee: I don't know where you get this idea that Palestinians are warring people. They are more from an agro society than the highly educated European Jews and are peaceful people.
What would you do if your house was pushed down by bulldozers and rebuilt as part of a settlement for Israelis and made a refugee in your own country? As far as provoking goes, I think you have it backwards, the Israeli's have provoked the Palestinians ever since the Balfour Declaration was signed and that is a fact.
There will never be a two state solution because Netanyahu would love nothing more than to remove the Palestinians from their land so that his people can settle in the land that they think they have the God given right to. He always says the Palestinians don't recognize Israel as country. It is the other way around. He will never recognize Palestine as a sovereign country.
Your last paragraph is nothing more than your opinion. It is not based on fact. Again, you have to separate the Palestinian people from HAMAS, I believe the average Palestinian does not want to have another holocaust. They just want to be respected and live in their own land. Netanyahu has done what the Nazi's did to the Jews in WWII, he has made refugees to people in their own land.
All the checkpoints for Palestinians are manned by the Israeli military. There are hundreds of check points they have to go through, just to enter Israel. This is from the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA)
https://www.unocha.org/publications/rep … ugust-2023
Here is another one about checkpoints. You have to scroll to move the presentation to the next slide.
https://interactive.aljazeera.com/aje/2 … index.htmlI have to agree with your assessment, in whose minds do the Palestinians always remain the ogre in the conflict?
Is it possible that Israel policy toward them is a contributing factor?I'd like to say that I very much appreciated your historical summary. Great job with such a complex subject.
Far to many Americans do not understand the reality of the Gaza strip. Some seem to believe it is a city like any other city.
Since 2007 it has been under a land, sea and air blockade imposed by Israel. Years of conflict and the blockade have left 80% of the population dependent on humanitarian assistance to survive. Access to clean water is not possible for 95% of the population, and there are continuous power shortages which impacts essential services like health, water and sanitation.
Almost half of Gaza’s people do not have enough food, around 60% of children are anaemic and many children suffer from stunted growth due to malnutrition. More than 1 million Gazans live in 8 refugee camps within the zone.
The blockade has sealed off Gaza from the rest of the world, crippling the economy and trapping residents including a generation of young people who have no hope of prospects for development. 70% of youth are now unemployed.
Hamas came to power not by being militant and intent on the destruction of Israel but by providing social care, hospitals and education to children. That was their promise to a desperate people. That was their appeal and it was met to a small degree.
Israel’s closure policy blocks essentially all Gaza residents from going to the West Bank, preventing them from pursuing opportunities within Palestine and from traveling abroad via Israel, restricting their rights to work and an education. Restrictive Egyptian policies at its Rafah crossing with Gaza pens them in from the other side. Israel, with Egypt’s help, has turned Gaza into an open-air prison.
Shouldn't Israel end its generalized ban on travel for Gaza residents and permit free movement of people to and from Gaza? How is what they are doing any different from apartheid? Do people realize that over half of the population in Gaza are children?
Black and white thinking will help no one, and has no place in any serious analysis of the current situation. Many truths exist here simultaneously. How can peace can prevail in the Middle East as Palestinians are denied their rights?
Let's remember that Hamas is not the Palestinian people; in fact, Hamas displays dictatorial power over their own people in Gaza.Willowarbor: Thank you. I feel it is necessary to understand both sides of the conflict and how it all started.
An interesting post. You comment that Hamas has improved Gaza with schools, hospitals and "social care". Potable water is necessary for life - where are the desalination plants he built? People require food to survive - where is the agriculture he provided? Virtually all the fresh water (even the sea) in Gaza is polluted by sewage - where are the sewage treatment plants? Hospitals cannot operate without electricity - where are the generation plants? Hospitals and schools are wonderful, but they pale beside the necessities for life itself.
Hamas took what few resources he had and bought weapons instead. Weapons used to carry out his stated goal of wiping Israel off the map - he has done almost nothing to help Gaza, instead forcing total dependence on other countries for their food, water, power and everything else.
Then you want unrestricted travel...to terrorists intent on destroying Israel! That's madness, nothing else, and no nation in the world would permit such a thing at their own peril.
No, in this matter Hamas must be removed - there is no other option. What is happening in Gaza is terrible beyond words but at the root it is no different than the US chasing after Bin Laden through any country harboring him and his band of cut throat terrorists. Harbor and aid such people and your country will face war, just as Gaza is, for others will not permit it.Hamas made promises to get into power. Promises that appealed to an impoverished people. I have never claimed they fulfilled any of those promises to any large degree.. my point being, the people of Gaza put Hamas into power not because they wanted to kill Jews but they wanted a better life.
It's tough for me to rationalize imprisoning millions of people into a small swath of land. Surely there must be other optionsAfter all these years, "black and white" thinking and solutions may be all that is left. Nuanced approaches and 'shades-of-gray' decisions haven't worked.
Consider the history of nations and national leaders that have tried to help find a solution. Most were intelligent, sincere, and backed by resource commitments, yet the problem remains.
GANuance seems to have all but fallen out of the public discourse today. Black and white thinking and polarized views seem to attack each other ignoring the fact that things rarely are that simple.
Oversimplification is a killer
I find it incredible that many seem unable to criticise a specific action of a person (e.g. politician, leader) while praising another separate action. The assumption seems to be that criticism of one action, automatically puts you in the camp of “against”. And praise of an action automatically puts you in the camp of “for”. The Israel Hamas war is a great example.
This kind of oversimplification just does not cut it if you are interested in the truth.
Our world is so complex. Situations or issues are impacted by history, circumstances and multiple confounding variables. Looking at things case-by-case and appreciating the importance of nuance is fundamental.
On an interpersonal level, fully blown saints and sinners are rare. And, there are many sinners masquerading as saints.
So, if we are to have any hope of cooperating effectively, we must try and become more aware of basic errors of black and white thinking. Going further, these errors are also a breach of ethics when they are consciously done. It is unethical to ignore the nuanced truth, in favor of a simplified story that you like for whatever reason, most likely because it backs-up your beliefs.
This forum quite honestly has become increasingly frustrating due to all of the overly simplistic, black and white thinking that goes on here. Too many only receive half of a story along with misinformation from the news bubbles they're locked into. Tribalism has absolutely over run a balanced, nuanced assessment of any situation for far too many. Any sort of consideration of factors that may draw an individual toward the center are just flatly ignored most of the time. I just don't find that the black and white thinking allows for much of any real discourse anymore.
Historically, Gaza has faced socio-economic difficulties, and the Palestinian people never thrived. The reliance on Israel for essential resources like water and electricity is a notable aspect of this reality. One can only label them third world.
There have been political choices that have put them in a negative situation, including the election of leaders with affiliations to organizations considered to be violent terrorists. Not only Hamas but they have a history of supporting one terrorist group after another such as the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO), and Fatah. They have proven themselves through decades that they support warring terrorist groups. Not sure why it seems some ar willing to ignore that fact.
Time has passed for peace between the two, and Hamas committed genocide. Hopefully, the Palestinians will find a home in a Muslim country where they will live in peace. Although such arrangements have yet to materialize, Eygpt has refused to take them in.
The ongoing situation is undoubtedly a tragic one. However, in my view, it was unfortunately foreseeable, given the long-standing conflicts between Israel and the Palestinians. I don't think Israel will once and for all solve this ongoing crisis.
It would seem they have little interest in living in peace with Israel. If they did they certainly could have. There are two sides to this conflict. One is civilized, and do not support terrorist, one has proven over and over they do not support violence.The environment created by the Palestinians and the Jewish people splitting up the small area which is Israel is unsustainable and it needs to change.
No more Two-state.
One-state ... with everybody believing in the REAL "God" of the Bible.
not a FAKE "God" who advocates killing.
The rights of freedom of speech and freedom of religion should be fought for. Not territory, land, resources or anything else.
God of the Bible gave the Jewish people, Israel. Let them have it ...
in respect for the real God of the Bible.
And if you do not want to believe what is written in the Bible, heaven help you.Psalms 137:9
Isaiah 13:16
Deuteronomy 20:16–17
Genesis 19:24
Remember God committing genocide of everyone but Noah?
Remember God hardening Pharaoh's heart so he had a reason to kill all the firstborn?
The god of the Christian bible is probably the most bloodthirsty, violent, murderous entity ever created.... so you are saying the God of the Bible is just as blood thirsty as the God of the Koran?
Certainly, the final paragraph of my comment clearly expresses my personal view. I must emphasize that I lack knowledge about how this ongoing conflict will ultimately end. I don't claim to be an expert on the history of Israel, but I do recognize that Israel has never initiated conflicts, and often sought resolutions rather than initiating wars with its neighboring nations. These resolutions have sometimes involved displacing Palestinians from lands they had occupied.
The installation of checkpoints began in the 1990s, prompted by conflicts with Palestinian militants who had initiated suicide bombings as early as 1989. Israel's primary objective was to safeguard its citizens from such violent attacks. Importantly, throughout this period, Israel continued to permit Palestinians to work within its borders.
It's important not to overlook the fact that Israel has consistently faced external threats and terrorist attacks. In my opinion, it's crucial to consider the broader historical context of the region and acknowledge that Israel has been under attack by outside forces since its establishment.
Here is a link that shows the unprovoked violence Israel has ensured throughout now decades. It would be hard not to consider these many violent attacks when considering why Israel felt checkpoints were very much necessary ---
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_P … de_attacksHow is penning 2 million people within a narrow piece of land not apartheid?
how is massive seizures of Palestinian land and property, unlawful killings, forcible transfer, drastic movement restrictions ok? All are all components of a system which amounts to apartheid under international law. This system is maintained by violations which Amnesty International found to constitute apartheid as a crime against humanity, as defined in the Rome Statute and Apartheid Convention. Palestinians are treated as an inferior racial group and systematically deprived of their rights and yet we expect a thriving people?
How does one thrive living a refugee camp?How does walking into Jewish homes and killing them in horrific ways excuse anything, I mean anything? You can dance around this particular issue we come out at the other side where a terrorist group that represented the Palestinians and committed genocide on Jews.
How did the Jews thrive in the same land? Palestinians were long in that same land and did not thrive. They provoked wars and were pushed into smaller and smaller areas due to being a people who were incapable of living in peace with Jews.
They adopted and supported one terror group after another... I note you ignore the points I have shared. How we came to this very war. These are warring people who always have been.
It would seem after all the defeats they have had, they would stop attacking Israel. It is now most likely they will be run off from Gaza, or monitored much more closely. They will never expect Jews, and Jews are not about to continue down the path they were on. This needs to be resolved so the citizens of Israel can live in peace.
It would appear your empathy is preventing you from seeing the full picture.
This problem needs to be solved in a manner that will deter the Palestinians from continuing to provoke war with Israel. This ongoing going threat needs to end. No people who commit genocide should be allowed to walk the earth, period.No people who commit genocide should be allowed to walk the earth, period.
Are you comfortable in picking through the millions of Palestinians and deciding who supports terror and who doesn't? Or are you completely comfortable with just obliterating all of them? If so, remember that 50% of those in the Gaza strip are under 18 years old. Your continued description of Palestinians is warring people is just so incorrect. Now terrorist groups consistently committing terror is more accurate. But a grouping the whole of Palestinian people as warlike is just not right.
Not at any point have I condoned Hamas for their attack in israel, please do not infer so. I can tell the difference and know the difference between Hamas and Palestinian people who do not support Hamas. Again, the black and white thinking that just really prevents any sort of informed discourse. I can refuse to condone Hamas while supporting both Israelis and Palestinians. Why can't this be done more? To see all aspects of why a conflict has come to be rather than summarily pinning it completely, all on one side?
I'm ignoring points? You have not addressed the living conditions in Gaza which are solely imposed by Israel. Is it not apartheid? Do you understand what the educational system is in Gaza for the young? Israel has bombed a great majority of the schools and they therefore conduct education and shifts with the buildings that remain. Please let me know how you overcome something such as this. You seem to imply that there is equality of opportunity in Israel and Gaza. As if they are identical lands of opportunity. You seem to be completely ignoring the fact that imprisonment in Gaza has had an impact on the situation. I believe that this can be recognized. The only reason that it is not is that people want to remain in their tribe.
I wouldn't say that empathy is preventing me from seeing anything. I'm seeing that there are more factors than just Israel "good "and Palestine "bad" that contribute to the current situation. It's much more complex than media presents.
It would also seem that you're ignoring all of the attacks that Israel has made upon Gaza through history. I'm certainly not ignoring the history of the conflict between the two. I understand the history. Israel is by no means completely innocent.
You've accused me of skirting much but again, you haven't answered if Israel guilty of apartheid by its definition? If corralling people within a perimeter because they all must pay for the sins of some, is completely okay with you just say so.
Also, would Hamas have even been formed in 1987 if it weren't for some of the conflicts between Palestinians and the Israelis? Specifically they were formed after the first intifada, the Palestinian uprising against Israeli occupation of the West Bank.I expressed my views earlier, so repeating them in response to your comment would be redundant. I'm not particularly interested in engaging in hyperbolic discussions.
I never insinuated that you support Hamas for their attack in Israel; I pointed out simply that it would appear your empathy is preventing you from seeing the full picture. I made no other statement that could be taken as personal.
Although you now have shared this --- I must admit I found this statement abhorrent
.Given our differing viewpoints, I think it's best if I step away from this conversation. This approach allows us to exercise our right to free speech and choose when to engage in discussions that are worth our energy." I can condone Hamas"
That was A typo that was corrected. I can condemn or not condone Hamas while still supporting Israelis and Palestinians. The context supports that. I think many here must realize now that I commit frequent typos as I use dictation and don't always go back to check.
I see that you do not want to address the apartheid question, there's nothing hyperbolic about it in my opinion. I am only acknowledging that both sides have culpability in this ongoing conflict. It is not black and white.
The full picture for me that is not being realized is that millions of people are penned into a narrow strip of land against their will with little opportunity to make any sort of life."I see that you do not want to address the apartheid question"
Apartheid is the implementation and maintenance of a system of legalized racial segregation in which one racial group is deprived of political and civil rights.
It would seem this is what Hamas has done in regard to the Palestinian people. They were voted in to lead the people yet you seem to separate them from the people --- So it would seem Hamas is committing apartheid.
Of course, if the Palestinians support Hamas this would not be applicable.
Israel has left the Palestinians to Govern themselves, they have no say in what they do or who they vote to govern.
I removed the statement that had a typo from my comment.
Sharlee: You never answered my question. What would you do if your house was pushed down with a bulldozer and you were made a refugee in your own land and your house was rebuilt to house settling Israeli's?
That is precisely what happened in 1948 when the European Jews settled in Palestine right after the Holocaust. And it has continued constantly since then up until now.
Those houses that were attacked by Hamas, at one time were occupied by Palestinians. That is what the Israeli settlement and colonization is all about. They encroach on the land of others and build their Kibbutz on what was Palestinian land and homes because there are those who believe they have the god-given right to do that.
When a people have been dehumanized by others if is very easy for them to justify whatever they want. That is what Hitler did to the Jews and it started in Israel with the Zionist movement. right after WWI with the Balfour Declaration.
You and I know nature abhors a vacuum. The Palestinians were left without any real representation, other than countries like the US trying to establish a two state solution. The leaders of Israel play the passive aggressive role, they go through the motions, but there is no effort to do have a two state solution. If they did, they would have to give back the Palestinian land they now occupy with their settlements.
You think understanding the history about the conflict isn't important and we should only deal with what is happening today. However, when the history has been the same from 1948 and before, it is very important to understand and put yourself in place of the people who have been made refugees in their own land.
This is from the United Nations publication on Palestine.
https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-193492/
This is from the United Nations Human Rights Commissioner
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases … -west-bank
This is a link to my Hub page with all the illustrations and maps to show how the Israeli occupation has progressed through the years. Please indulge me and read it. It will give you a clearer understanding of what is happening today, based on what happened clear back before WWI with the Zionist movement. That Zionist movement is still being practiced today by Israel.
https://discover.hubpages.com/politics/ … t-Conflict"You never answered my question. What would you do if your house was pushed down with a bulldozer and you were made a refugee in your own land and your house was rebuilt to house settling Israeli's?"
Your question is too simplistic to answer. I look back on the fact that both sides give different stories of what occurred in 1948. The Jews claimed they were satisfied to live in one land beside the Palestinians, the Palestinians created a war, that the Jews fought and won, and yes, they were then not willing to live side by side with the Palestinians. History gives two stories. One that states the leaders of the Palestinians told them to leave their land and prepare for war, they did, and the war proceeded. They lost, and Israel claimed the lands they had deserted.
So, I would be very sorry if I listened to leaders who told me to leave my land and chose war instead of living in peace with the Jews. I would be very sorry I left and did not choose peace.
I will say I found no sense or justification for this statement you shared.
"Those houses that were attacked by Hamas, at one time were occupied by Palestinians. That is what the Israeli settlement and colonization is all about. They encroach on the land of others and build their Kibbutz on what was Palestinian land and homes because there are those who believe they have the god-given right to do that."
I now ask, do you feel the killing, and butchering of other human beings was a God-given right?
All of the history shows a very glaring fact --- The Palestinians provoke every conflict with Israel. They have long used terror tactics, and it is time they are stopped. They certainly have taken their warring into the realm of genocide. I have always felt due to their long history of provoking wars, they are war-like people. Many leaders have tried to bring solutions to the area, but the Palestinians want one solution the Jews to leave the land.
Your view shocks me and scares me. When is it acceptable to kill innocent citizens? Oh, I forgot the Germans found it very acceptable. We can not accept this kind of genocide ever again.
For me, I am for stopping this kind of ideology cold... As the world was in World War ll. Stamping out anyone who can commit such crimes. And ostracizing anyone who promotes or excuses such crimes."What would you do if your house was pushed down with a bulldozer and you were made a refugee in your own land and your house was rebuilt to house settling Israeli's?"
How did it get to be their land? Israel was a nation state in that area since the bronze age. Thousands of years. When modern Israel was created in 1948 the land was under the control of the British and French. Before that it was part of the Ottoman Empire.
There has never been a Palestinian nation state in the area.
You do realize that Israel only bull dozes the homes of people who have committed terrorist attacks that have killed Jews.
Again, if Hamas put down their weapons there would be peace.
If Israel put down their weapons there would be a massive amount of dead Jews.RMN; What comes first the terrorists attacks or the pushing down of houses with bulldozers? In my book, pushing down some ones house and making them a refugee is a terrorist attack.
Here is a little bit of history for you.
The Zionist Movement and the Horse Chestnut
The Zionist Movement started in the 1600's and was about getting the Jewish people to consolidate into one area, preferably Palestine. During World War I, the British and French were fighting the Ottoman Empire.
Theodore Herzel was in charge of the Zionist movement at the same time. The British were in need of acetone to process cordite for their explosives. However, the acetone was made by distilling it from timbers, which were in short supply in Britain. As a result they were importing timbers from America.
At that time, there was a Jewish biochemist, Chaim Weizmann, that was part of the British Ministry and also a Zionist.. He was given the task of developing a cheap way of extracting acetone from other materials. He found that he could distill acetone from horse chestnuts by using a bacteria fermentation process. As a result, the British were able to produce mass quantities of acetone to process cordite for their explosives. Cordite is a propellant that makes artillery shells smokeless so they can't be traced when fired..
This innovation helped them win WWI. As a result, Weizmann became highly recognized by Theodore Herzel, the leader of the Zionist movement, Lord Balfour, the Foreign Secretary of Britain, and Baron Rothschild, a Zionist sympathizer with a lot of money..
It should be noted that later Chaim Weizmann was to become the first President of Israel.
Lord Balfour
The Balfour Declaration
The common interests of Herzel, Wiezmann, Rothschild, and Balfour resulted in the Balfour Declaration of 1917. The motivation for the declaration was three fold.
President Wilson was uncertain about being an ally to Britain, but two of his closest advisors were Zionist
Russia was in a revolution and they wanted to keep them in their war by being sympathetic to the Jewish population.
Britain wanted to attract Jewish financial resources.
The following is the text of the Balfour Declaration.
"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."
Notice it states a "national home" for the Jewish people, not a state or nation. Also in the last sentence it states that, "nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine."
So in my book, Israelis' did not comply with the Balfour Declaration and started the takeover of Palestinian people and their land which still exists to this day and will continue forever until they rid the territory of every last Palestinian."Palestinian people and their land"
How did it get to be "their" land?
Learn some history. Israel has had a nation state in that area since the bronze age. There has never been a Palestinian nation state. There has only been land referred to as Palestine.
As far as I'm concerned, modern Israel has been a country since 1948. They've fought many wars and have earned the right to exist in the Middle East.
As far as I'm concerned, Israel will be there long after we all depart this world and will be around for our great, great grandchildren to read about.
There is nothing you or anyone who thinks like you can do to stop it.
If Israel puts down their weapons their turmoil will never end. This has gone on for much too long, and now we see genocide. And it appears from what I am witnessing in the media, that some are willing to accept this due to their very skewed perceptions. My God what is going on when one can make excuses for killers, and those that support killers?
We have some really sick-minded people in this world.
Sharlee: There may be two opinions, but history is history and it is usually written by the victors. It is not simplistic at all. It requires understanding and empathy to answer the question. The fact that you did not answer my question speaks volumes about what you think of the Israeli settlers and how they made refugees of of the Palestinians..
"Palestinians told them to leave their land and prepare for war, they did, and the war proceeded. They lost, and Israel claimed the lands they had deserted."
Where did you get that Idea that Palestinians told them to leave their land. Did you not read the UN reports about how the Palestinian houses were removed so the Israeli's could settle there?I did answer your question, in detail. You may have missed it. Here is the link
https://hubpages.com/politics/forum/359 … ost4311926
This is an article that sheds light on what historians have shared about the Palestinians who were told by leaders to leave the land their given land.
https://mondediplo.com/1997/12/palestineSharlee: You did not answer my question. You re-worded into something else: Here is your answer.
"So, I would be very sorry if I listened to leaders who told me to leave my land and chose war instead of living in peace with the Jews. I would be very sorry I left and did not choose peace."
That has nothing to do with the question I asked you. You weasel worded into something else. Here is the question again, but in more detail.
You live in house for a certain period of time and one night when you are asleep, you are awakened by the sound of a bulldozer pushes your house down. You have to leave and pack as many things as you can into a suitcase...and now you have no place to go, so you start walking down the street. You are now a refugee, you have to look for food and water, and a place to stay. What would you do?
You did not answer my other question about the UN reports. Did you read them or not?"What would you do if your house was pushed down with a bulldozer and you were made a refugee in your own land and your house was rebuilt to house settling Israeli's?"
The questions written are hyperbolic. It can only be answered if one believes the Palestinians were pushed from their homes by Israel. I have cited historians who have made claims they left of their own free will, told by their own leaders to leave...
To answer your question any differently I would need to just assume, believe that they were pushed out of their homes. Which I personally do not believe. I believe the Palestinian people are warring people. They had a state, actually more land than Israel, and they just could not accept Jews as neighbors. They provoked war after war and committed one terror attack after another. They have more than proved themselves to be warring people.
We are on opposite sides in regard to this long-standing problem.
I feel empathy for any Palestinians who have been caught up in this war and don't believe in the ideologies of many in Gaza, However, my sympathies are with the people of Israel, who have been once again attacked, this time with the purpose of genocide.
Yes, once again they will lose. But this time they need to be rooted out, and stopped once and for all. The people of Israel need to be safe and live in peace. Terrorists have no place on this earth.Sharlee:
"Yes, once again they will lose. But this time they need to be rooted out, and stopped once and for all. The people of Israel need to be safe and live in peace. Terrorists have no place on this earth."
Who are the bigger terrorists, the ones who destroy peoples houses are the ones who want to live in peace?
Once again you did not answer my question about the UN reports. Here are the links again. I know you must be afraid to read them because they present the real truth about how Palestinian houses are destroyed by the Israeli soldiers.
htttps://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-193492/
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases … -west-bankSharlee:
"Yes, once again they will lose. But this time they need to be rooted out, and stopped once and for all. The people of Israel need to be safe and live in peace. Terrorists have no place on this earth."
Who are the bigger terrorists, the ones who destroy peoples houses are the ones who want to live in peace?
Once again you did not answer my question about the UN reports. Here are the links again. I know you must be afraid to read them because they present the real truth about how Palestinian houses are destroyed by the Israeli soldiers.
https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-193492/
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases … -west-bankThe UN... OMG, are you kidding? This Bias bunch of fools. I was hoping Trump would have kept his promise to boot them out of America.
Your article has no details on what precipitated the deaths, no investigations, just accusations.
Hey, it is clear you support the Palestinians, I Don't, never have, never will.
"Who are the bigger terrorists, the ones who destroy people's houses are the ones who want to live in peace?"
The ones that cut off babies' heads, tortured and killed innocent citizens, and took hostages to use as bargaining tools destroyed in a war that the Palestinians provoked.
The UN originally came up with a wonderful solution by dividing the land, with the Palestinians actually receiving more land, and the Palestinians would not accept the deal. Israel did and was satisfied with all to live without borders... You need to really do deeper research of what occurred in 1947 up to this day.
You can support both Palestinians and Israelis. One group aren't all devils and the other angels. If you'd read the events that have transpired from the Balfour declaration on I think you'd have a deeper more complete understanding. This is not a black and white issue. But if you need to ignore factual history that implicates BOTH groups in the ongoing unrest, then so be it. And no, I don't support terrorists but Israel is in no way 100% innocent through our time in terms of their treatment of the Palestinians. There certainly has to be a solution other than apartheid. I don't support wallling people ( 50% children) into an area and depriving them of basic rights. An eye for an eye means everyone dies. You're right, terrorists have no place in society but ALL Palestinians aren't terrorists.
I'd encourage you to do much more reading, including first hand accounts of life in Gaza by those who live it. These accounts can be found from decades back.
Check this out from an Israeli in 2015.
Question on Quora: Should I support Israel or Palestine? https://www.quora.com/Should-I-support- … e=questionWhat is BLACK AND WHITE --- We witnessed genocide. The time has passed for a peaceful resolution to this crisis. In my view, a war is the only way, once again to make an attempt to hopefully stop this group from provoking war. One would think they would have stopped after 75 years.
I have always supported Israel, and always will.The situation at hand is far from straightforward. We have witnessed a harrowing genocide, and the hope for a peaceful resolution has now waned. In my view, it appears that war may be the only option left to quell the provocations of this warring group, even though one would expect them to desist after 75 years. And yes, regrettably, many Palestinians find themselves embroiled in a conflict they may not support, and I hope that, in the aftermath of these three weeks, they will seek safety far from the battle's reach.
It's disheartening that they face a lack of refuge, mainly due to concerns about potential complications they might bring with them. The Arab nations ought to extend a welcoming hand, but regrettably, their reputation has not endeared them to these now-displaced individuals. There are times when, unfortunately, war becomes the sole means of addressing an issue, and in this instance, a hard stance must be taken against those perpetrating genocide.
I have consistently supported Israel and will continue to do so.
Yes, it would be so bad with no war in Israel and Ukraine.
The only reason that Biden could have thought he would stop the Iranian nuclear program by relaxing the sanctions is if he had an Iranian spy in the middle of his administration.
I guess that would never happen though.Our best evidence at the time told us and the Trump administration that the Iran nuclear deal was working and they were adhering to it. Let's try and remember that Trump had literally no foreign policy experience at the time. According to his top advisors and cabinet members, the very basics needed to be explained to him.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ … l-trump-unYou know, based on your comment to Sharlee, that the Iranians had no intention of dismantling their program and were just using the threat to toy with Biden. It does not matter if anyone on his team had more experience than Trump: he is a poor excuse for a negotiator. The answer as you so well know, was to leave the table and impose sanctions.
Sidestepping the Iranian spy in the Biden cabinet point?
"Sen. Ted Cruz is pulling the curtain back on three "Iranian spies" who were allegedly working at senior levels within the Biden administration, claiming that one of the Iran "sympathizers" is regularly accessing classified materials while working as a chief of staff in the Department of Defense.5 hours ago"
https://www.foxnews.com/media/sen-ted-c … government
https://www.dailywire.com/news/top-bide … d-c-reportBoth links are in the right of center median news scale. I not would believe Ted Cruz if he told me the sun rises and sets....
That is an excuse to undermine a program Obama created that had a chance of working. Dismissing a viable, working program over right wing conspiracy theories does not set well with me.
I am not saying that Israel did not try to live in peace with their neighbours. Indeed they tried. The other side also tried. In my part of the world, which is supposed to be one of the most dense semi-urban places in India, the population density is 850/sq km. In Gaza, it is 16500. Can you imagine that, such deprivation? As a privileged nation, Israel could have done more to help their neighbours. As a modern society, it should have walked that extra mile and more. And no war is inevitable. Israel could have used its supreme intelligence and technical tools to seek out and destroy Hamas silently and not cause harm to the Gaza civilians. The Arab countries and even the now defunct yet alive PLO could have issued a statement sharing the pain of Israel just after the Oct 7 attack and distanced themselves from Hamas. So many things were possible but did not happen. What Joe Biden did, pacified the fire a little which I think was wise to do. Was that enough? No.
"Israel could have done more to help their neighbours."
Israel along with the United States and the world community gave millions to the people of Gaza for the building of hospitals, schools and improve infrastructure. Thousands of people come from Gaza to get medical treatment in Israel. Hamas used all the resources given to it to purchase weapons as well as build factories to make weapons. They used equipment given to them for construction projects to build terrorist tunnels. It is in the charter of Hamas to kill jews and destroy Israel.
There is no easy way to deal with a governing body that does not care about its people and only wants to destroy its neighbor.
"Israel could have used its supreme intelligence and technical tools to seek out and destroy Hamas silently and not cause harm to the Gaza civilians."
Do you realize that Hamas is the ruling governing body of Gaza? How can you silently destroy an organization consisting of thousands of people? They maintain weapons factories, underground terrorist tunnels, and more. They store rockets and weapons in schools and hospitals because they Israel won't attack them. If you have a solution to that one, I'd like to hear it.
What country border can a Gaza palestinians cross right now? Answer- none. As I've said before they are trapped like fish in a barrel. Certain Palestineain with permits are allowed into Israel, that is still totally occupation and control of that human being. Israelis can still torture or kill them at will with no opposing views accepted. Israelis are as free as hell. What is really difference is hardly anyone in the world in media coverage couldn't see the real illegal Apartheid since 1948. Or the murdering in twice the numbers of 9/11 which really looks like on film. Except planes not ever knocking down skyscraper before or after 9/11.
Can't believe the most secured border in the world had 15 entrances to it. To kill over 1000 Israelis by trucks, paraglider, guns and weak rockets, wail missing 40 beheaded babies as evidence. Then took up to 250 hostages with no opposition from Israelis soldiers, for a period of 8 hours. That has every marking of an inside job like 9/11.
I'm terrible sorry some Israelis ancestors were tortured and killed by the Nazis , yet the Israel leaders are acting the same.
If any Palestinians could cross anywhere they would in a heartbeat to save their lives. From my world historical studies of warfare on museum work I do and Gaza. Is these criminal war tactics are of world war two and some way worse than civil war tactics due to lack survival possibilities of fuel, water, food.medicine, crunched bodies under rubles and white phosphorus munitions , on ground swept, weapons of mass destruction and properganda machine. The US given Israel more funds than any nationalist country in the world and ever since world war 2.
I think their aim is to drive Gaza citizens again to tent living, like 5 million Syrians are now. Except worse 4th world health condition in desert of Egypt. In the globe order of build back better, lie of the century. Now the whole world is watching this time. Going to be very difficult with not calling it a genocide and a threat to the world on camera.Have you not asked yourself why the Egyptians do not want the Palestinians in their country? If one of my neighbors asked for refuge I would give it unless he was a known murderer and thief.
This is something many are not willing to understand. Great point. Nations that want peace, do not want others war pouring into their streets.
Makes no sense to me. Why would Egyptians love Zionist more than their own brother Gaza Muslim Palestinians, they had no war with them. And already have 100,000 Gaza refugees in their Egyptian country.
The Gaza Strip was under Egyptian military rule from 1949 to 1956 and again from 1957 to 1967. From the beginning, the area's chief economic and social problem was the presence of large numbers of Palestinian Arab refugees.
After Egypt lost the war with to Israel they had an occupation agreement to who comes in or out of the border. Who wants to argue with 4th largest military in the world who kicked their butts twice.
Most North American know very little about the middle east, they think they are all Arabs.Dont you think the reason that the Egyptians do not want to take more Palestinians into their country as they realize it is going to lead to more unrest? They know that the Palestinians, from the time they are in grade school and read books telling them to hate the Jews of Israel, are going to want their country at war and there are always going to be Palestinians willing to commit terroristic acts to start that war?
Israelis are legends in their own mind, they are fake Jews because David from holyland wasn't born in the 1800s . Israel has been a great kill joy and destructive sacredness of their Muslims of the 8 occupation surrounding areas. Fear and resentment is not the same of love for what they have for each other. Making Israel behind the 8 ball.
What do your comments have to do with the question?
Kids don't need to read any books at school on how to hate Israelis. When can know by experience how horrible the Israel treat them first hand.
https://forward.com/opinion/476665/i-gr … lence-and/
Egypt do not take in Gaza citizens because their Occupation border agreement. Israelis are busy ethnic cleansing them first, before sending them living into tents in a Egypt desert. Like they done to 5 million Syrians.Kids don't need to read any books at school on how to hate Israelis. When can know by experience how horrible the Israel treat them first hand.
https://forward.com/opinion/476665/i-gr … lence-and/
Egypt do not take in Gaza citizens because their Occupation border agreement. Israelis are busy ethnic cleansing them first, before sending living intents in a desert. Like they help doing to 5 million Syrians.
"What country border can a Gaza palestinians cross right now? Answer- none."
Answer...there is an entry and exit point in Egypt.The Rafah border crossing between Egypt and Gaza closed shortly after it had opened Saturday morning to allow trucks carrying humanitarian aid to enter the enclave, which has been cut off from deliveries of food and other essentials since Hamas militants attacked Israel on Oct. 7.4 hours ago.
It only allowed a small fraction of trucks allowed through wail many trucks are waiting at the border. Some arrangements allowing American, Canadian and European fly through. Still many trapped because Israel plans is to stomp out as many Palestinian as they can, so they would not ever come back to their homes again. Even Biden said Israel could loose some of their creditability. Whippy f.
"Maybe Israel could have been more involved in providing education in Gaza and empowering the younger generation there at least. "
Palestine has received aid from the US and other nations for decades. Money that was intended to build schools and infrastructure. They were and still remain very backward, this was the case long before Israel was settled. Actually, Israel is responsible for bringing better infrastructure into Gaza and the West Bank. They also brought better education and jobs. Palestinians work in Israel. These are people who did not thrive and still don't. It is not the fault of Israel.
Hamas seemed to be their solution, they wanted their land back and refused to live peacefully beside Jews. Hamas are terrorists, and it is clear they now have adopted the killing of innocent civilians. This kind of ideology is not civilized, and it needs to be stopped. It would benefit the people of Gaza to join with the Jews and rid their land of these murders.
It is very unfortunate that the Palestinians seem to have accepted the tactics Hamas uses, because of this they have forced the hand of Israel to stop this form of war. The Palestinians have a very long history of starting a war but feel they should not be warned against it. This is a skewed thought process. It can only lead to more deaths of their people.
It would be lovely if these two people could live side by side. But realistically that has not been the case. Perhaps that day will come.It is the fault of Israelis, British and US. They dumped victims of holocaust survivor from Germany and Russia into countries into Palestine in 1947. Then Israel had war with 8 Muslims countries kicked their butts. With US given Israel 250 billion dollars more than any nation in the world. I've toured most of the middle east, very interesting to visit. Yet wouldn't want to live there. As well as the US anymore, which did did for 20 years. US is more dangerous to travel than the middle east except in the war zones by the US. I've been more education from traveling than any school of north American indoctrination camps. One thing worst than the American oversea slavery trade. Was the longer and higher numbers of Arab slavery history.
As far as history of war battles
1st France
2nd British
3rd America
4th China.
5th Japan
In world world 2
1. USSR 27 million killed
2. China 14 million killed
3. 7 million Christian killed
4. 6-8 million Germans killed.
5. 4.5 to 8 million, US 1980 since Muslims kill
6 2 to 6 million Jews killed.. debatable between Judaism Jews and Zionist.
Americans killed 420,000. Killed .
Although Zionist made more war movies and old American western films that killed.
Hollywood represents US culture.In my view, large cities around the world can be dangerous. The US's larger cities do have an increase in crime. The reasons are many, all of which could be solved. However, most politicians could care less about crime. They have bigger fish to fry. They don't live with it... And it would be expensive to solve.
The Jews went to their holy land after the war, feeling they were entitled to. They were not accepted. I don't think they ever will be. It is such a diverse subject, hard to weed through all the problems that occurred due to their choice to return and claim land that was long settled by Palestinians.What many don't except is Judaism was once the rightful owner of David in the Hollylands of Palestine. And Judaism jew's and many Gulf countries mix well with Palestinian living in peace together. Accept Zionist who occupation Israel is a cult religion invented in the 1880s disguise as Jewish. . As you know Muslims take their birthplace, constitution and their religion to their whole soul of their well being. To be kicked out of their home a few times. Reminds me of our native American story moving in Tepee. Then put into the world largest prison, then being boss around every day, Then being decolonizating of their culture, land and religion for 75 years. The only God I'm aware of, is nature and my art in my universe. The fake God called Government, charges me on half my money. Yet at least I can do up phony contact with them. Being a volunteer agreement laws that I still have choice to sign or not. If I can get away with the latter. And play the matrix game better than the Government. I live a private life and nobody owns me. Unlike the Israel who owns everything in the lives of Gaza Palestinian. Looks like they are destroying their homes again and moving them down into Egypt to set them up in tents in a desert. Using the model like 5 million Syrians who still living in tents, just hoping to survive the winter.
I would die, rather than be that kind of slave or prisoner. And certainly a Zionist being a fake God of war can go to hell on earth Even the real Jews don't believe in Heaven. Any apathy?
Shar,
Have you ever been to Israel?
Most people don't realize when they go there that the Church of the Nativity, the place people go to see where Christ was born, is in the West Bank. Bethlehem is in the West Bank. There are not the problems there like there is in Gaza. Why? It is governed by the Palestinian authority. They work with Israel and together they provide a peaceful place for tourists to visit and experience. So, my point is, it's possible for Israelites and the Palestinian Authority to have a peaceful existence.
Hamas is the problem.I have never been to Israel. I did know that the Palestinian Authority has worked well with Israel to keep peace, and actually a prosperity that is not what you see in Gaza.
I hope that the Palestinian Authority/West Bank can stay out of this war. It would be sad to see the progress in that region marred by terrorists.The Zionist have more secrets than anyone could imagine. I had two prior Judaism Jewish girlfriends who I loved deeply and were so beautiful. Yet Secret's from Zionist is a great waste of time.
peoplepower73, I read your article. It is really a very good explainer capturing all the nuances, many of which we often forget to notice. Once again, thank you for sharing.
Israel's conflict widens...
The USS Carney, a U.S. Navy guided-missile destroyer in the northern Red Sea, on Thursday, shot down multiple missiles and drones launched by Iranian-backed Houthis in Yemen that the Pentagon said were potentially headed toward targets in Israel.
It is the first time in recent memory that a U.S. Navy ship in the Middle East has engaged missiles and drones that were not directly aimed at the vessel.
It's also the first U.S. military action taken to defend Israel in the current crisis and with the U.S. and other countries trying to contain the conflict between Israel and Hamas, the possibility that an Iranian-backed proxy group fired missiles and drones at Israel is sure to increase growing regional tensions.
The ship was in the Red Sea on Thursday evening local time when it intercepted three land attack cruise missiles and several drones, Pentagon spokesman Brig. Gen. Pat Ryder said at a press briefing. U.S. officials on Friday told ABC News that the Carney had brought down four cruise missiles and 14 drones launched by the Houthis, an update from the three missiles and eight drones reported earlier.
The Houthis is another terror group thought to be financed by Iran
https://abcnews.go.com/International/se … =104147141Heard one report there is 2000 US troops on the ground. Who saving those million kids?
Another proxy war for sure, this will not be ending until they know America is no longer bogged down in its futile efforts in Ukraine.
I wouldn't put it past this new alliance of nations of planning on this, spread America's military efforts out, force it to engage in multiple locations, the Dollar is near the breaking point, our military is not up to the task of putting boots on the ground in multiple locations...
The ignorance and arrogance of this Administration that chose war over negotiating peace with the one opponent that had the nuclear capability to keep it at bay... is bringing war and ruination to the western world.I completely agree with your perspective. It's evident that this situation appears to be another proxy war, and it's alarming how it might continue until the U.S. diverts its attention from its efforts in Ukraine. The idea of spreading America's military efforts thin, especially when considering the strain on resources and the challenges of deploying troops in multiple locations, is really concerning. The potential consequences for both the U.S. and the world as a whole are troubling, and the preference for diplomacy over war could have been a more prudent approach, especially when dealing with a nuclear-capable opponent. It's a complex situation with far-reaching implications, and your concerns are mine.
I mean how much worse will this all get before Biden is seen as unfit to do the job? Look at the screaming mess we are in...
I think it will become worse when the draft is reinitiated. I read a couple of articles on the problems with recruitment, and that our military is badly depleted. Oh, my will liberals start to scream when their little gems are drafted.Just like how the Roman collapse with too many major wars in too many places at the same time. Europe is in even harder times than us. Because of global warming, they will be freezing to death this winter. Europe follows US in war which is outrageous.
Wail US printed fiat money is not worth toliet paper in many places. Saudi Arabia did follow US lead , now no more. Gold is real money being replaced in eastern currency and US won't buy in to it. I kept saying 15 years ago that US fiat currency and Pedro dollar will collapse. It's why housing first, freedom 2nd and food 3rd was most important business to me. And the real war is about economics and social structure substainablity."Just like how the Roman collapse with too many major wars in too many places at the same time."
What we could see is a world war, and I would surmise the US will be heavily relied on due to most European nations do have not the stomach or the military to fight a war.
I think the US and gold they still maintain the biggest gold reserve in the world.
Not really sure about the problems the EU is having with Global warming, I have read Germany is returning to coal this winter. This does not say a lot about their fight against global warming.
"Government officials in Germany have approved a plan to bring some shuttered coal-fired power plants back online in an effort to avoid energy shortages this winter. Cabinet members on Oct. 4 said they would support putting on-reserve lignite-fired power plants back online from now until the end of March 2024."
I think the great push for clean energy needs more work and less talk.
I think there is a lot of information that is not completely true in regard to climate. Very scientific stuff... Not sure armchair scientists should be predicting anything about climate. It is clear from what I have learned that we have growing problems, that have accelerated over the past 20 years. However, in my view, real feasible plans are needed to combat global problems. There are many pros and cons in regard to wind and solar, that are not being considered, which could cause very serious problems to our soil and water. But hair-on-fire individuals are talking above all of that.Gold left the banks in 1972, although some Politicans do think the US currency is backed by gold. It was backed by oil some. Yet, BRICS and members are dominants in energy by oil, gas, cobalt and uranium.
Oh well, America has the busiest money making print machine in the world. The test will be the crys and screams this winter in Europe. Imagine tropical immigrants tented in homelessness Canada and Gulf of the middle east in the starving games.
https://www.globalfirepower.com/countri … ry2=turkey
Turkiye is prepare for war, they have a bad blood relationship with Israel. They may have a stronger military long term than Israel. Please doG don't let it be so.
(... and Israelis (and Zionists) need to respect those who are not Jewish.)
BTW:
Q. Who ARE the ZIONISTS?Zionism is a nationalist and imperialism movement that emerged in the 19th century to enable the establishment of a homeland for the Jewish people in Palestine a region roughly corresponding to the Land Jewish tradition In the book Torah which Zionist don't exist.
Following the establishment of Israel, Zionism became an political ideology that supports "the development and protection of the State of Israel. The Zionist were the hired warriors in connection with maxiam in Russia called the f__kers. Theodor Herzl was the founder of the Modern Zionist movement. In his 1896., Since the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, Zionism has continued primarily to advocate on behalf of Israel and to address threats to its continued existence and security.
Zionism has never been a uniform movement. Its leaders, parties, and ideologies frequently diverged"ancestral" country. Zionist make up 80% of Israel population.And have been the warlords and landlords ever since the start of their existence 1947. Peaceful my.., ask me no questions and I will tell no lies
Two most frightening words, we allow and we are here for your safety.
It is only conservatives that are simplistic enough to take a side regardless if taking that side is a fair and just solution. It is much like "my country right or wrong". It is an not an excuse for my country to behave badly. Israel is not seeking a fair apportionment of land between itself and Palestinians. Their aggressive settlement policies has been frowned upon by Western Europe and called provocative by the United States. I don't believe all that white folks juju about God's chosen people and land given to them by God
But in the conservative mindset, when choosing between the Cowboys and Indians they will always choose the cowboys. How many old westerns do you have to see to realize that? Clever how Hollywood had turn a historical travesty of theft and deprivation into how the West was Won. And, I guess that I don't really have to wonder why....
It is not pro Palestinian or pro Israeli, but pro lasting fair and equitable agreement for coexistence for both sides, even if it means two separate states. Israel has been an impediment to that goal at least in the 50 years since I did my thesis criticizing Israel regarding it.Playing cowboys and Indians, everyone wanted to be the cowboys, I was OK being the Indian. Later in life I married a native American. The native American strongly participated in the writing of the Constitution and 80% caretakers of the natural environment. Probably I feel more brown or native inside than white.
I'm sure 10,000s are died in the Gaza massacre. Hard to imagine the world watching and among them are so many heartless people cheering on the ethnic cleansing. And think that constitute to genocide, crimes against humanity, or war crimes. . Dozens of clinics and hospitals have to shut with babies in incubator that die in 5 minutes. This apocalypse mean unveiling the truth and those support this insane greedy madness will be haunted for the rest of their lives, the extra buck won't matter. If they have any conscious.Well, living in Big Island Hawaii, there is this term, haoelie, which is literally translated as "newcomer", but has been used as a rather derisive term for whites coming in from the mainland.
Being a person of color, I was given the benefit of the doubt. I was considered to be an honorary 'local' with a tweet here or there.
But haoelie is more of an attitude rather than a proper noun. Whites that adopted attitudes of locals and local ways cease being haoelie, It just takes longer.
Same with my stay in Panama for 6 months, only whites are truly identified as "gringo", even though from a geographic point of origin, I was one as well. Being a person of color, I get the benefit of the doubt, with a wait and see attitude. Again, we worked hard to dispel the image, by welcoming the locals, not economically exploiting them and quickly trying to get some fluency in the Spanish language. The locals recognize this as separating us from other US expats. They rewarded us by taking us in, showing us how to avoid paying "gringo" prices for the same stuff they acquired much cheaper. There were several aspects of life there that were unpalatable, but it was a small to pay. So, too, gringo can be an attitude and not a definition for an individual.
Treating people the way you want to be treated usually breaks down more than a handful of barriers.
So, as for Israel, like I said, Netanyahu will use this situation as the equivalent of the "final solution" for the Palestian question and people. He is a hard right brute, who could not afford to let an opportunity like this pass him by.Think Netanyahu brute force will finally back fire on him. Although still can't imagine the outcome clearly.
From being a whiteman and on all my world tours. The only racist feeling I got was I was charged too much everywhere I go. Ever since Trudeau racist theory, it's like high noon on who is racist. Being a boomer, white, straight male I'm on high alert all the time. Have a house in Belize and have a native friend who does my shopping, after I look over things. I speck spanish, It brings down the price of dentist work like a 10th compared to the cost back home.
Like I'm automatically wealthy or sponsored by my Government outside of Europe and North America. Today more to the reality, the common white man lives on the Indian reservation like everyone else, unless your wealthy.
My country, my people, my religion...but we all have common ancestors. Recently a historical study came out in my region based on DNA tests of the different castes living here. This study unequivocally proves that the high-caste Hindus of our region have their DNA closest to Muslims, a low-caste Hindu community, Greeks, and Arabs. A warring Arab and Jew would most probably have common ancestors if we trace back their lineage. So, there is no logic in saying one group is inherently good or evil. It comes down to the choices that each generation makes, and their leaders make. The succeeding generations often are caught in those choices. One good thing I see amidst this conflict is that the US and the Arab countries are trying to bring about peace through negotiations. Especially, it is commendable how the Arab leaders have responded. and even a minister of Lebanon, in an interview, genuinely (as far as can be perceived from an interview), expressed his hope for peace. Peace is possible if all parties decide to value human life, freedom, and human dignity irrespective of religion and nationality. Maybe that is the only way in which those who lost their dear ones, those who are victims of hatred, can find lasting closure; by ensuring that no more lives will be lost. It is as simple as that. Every human life is valuable. If Israel starts thinking rooted in that point, I am sure they can come up with better ways to eliminate Hamas (or rather the Hamas mentality) from among the people of Palestine. Listen to what the Saudi Prince Turki al-Faisal said at the Baker Institute in Houston. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKZKiu6St7s. Such sober voices must prevail.
You are right, good guys and bad guys can readily change with the circumstances.
Promotion of peace has always been a threat to power and control for far too many for far too long.
If Israel dealt with the grievances of the Palestians rather than trying to association their pursuits to the desires and ideology of killers like Hamas, perhaps we can make progress.
Thanks for the link.... I seem to have so difficulty getting it to play I will work on it.
"It is not pro Palestinian or pro Israeli, but pro lasting fair and equitable agreement for coexistence for both sides, even if it means two separate states."
Do you realize that has been suggested more than once? When Israel was going to be created in 1948, Israel agreed to two states, the Muslims wouldn't even discuss it. There have been many peace negotiations when Israel agreed to this, and the Arabs would accept it.
They don't want peace or a two state solution, they want to kill Jews and eliminate Israel.
Have you ever seen the Charter of Hamas?
"The Hamas Covenant portrays the Jewish enemies, in contrast to the purportedly heroic jihadist warriors, as ruthless Nazis. It states, “The enemy behaves with cruelty and atrocity, showing Nazism between a man and a woman, or between an adult and a child… The enemy relies on the breaking of bones, shooting women, the elderly, and children – with or without cause… In their heinous acts, they treat people in the most brutal way, like war criminals” (Article 20). Therefore, “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated what was before it” (Opening of the Covenant)."
https://besacenter.org/hamas-is-a-jihad … struction/
I hope those on the left realize Hamas would have no problem killing them.I'm in agreement with Deepa link above of Saudi prince. US/Israel no matter what Muslim defense military is called, they will be labeled as terrorists. No terrorist group in modern history of the world, will compare to the German Nazis that were predominantly Christian, And US predominantly Christian and their largest ethnic group are Germans. US killing Muslims at a ratio of a 1000 to one and other brown countries around the world. Is not only racist yet genocidal since the 80s. Plus, US own native American is where Hitler (white supremacy) was most impress with US greatest genocide in human history. It's gives common white people today a bad name, along with many European.
Be careful pointing the one finger on who are the terrorist, your pointing three fingers back at yourself. In Israel case pointing 20 fingers back at themselves.
West most often say we have achieved endless wonderful things for humanity. Yet when ask about their greatest atrocities from the west. We, me?... west, can't be talking about me, then the hysterical blaming game starts.Huh?
Where do you come up with this stuff?
Guess what? No matter how much you try to justify Hamas with political rhetoric and throwing misguided interpretations of history...what they did was wrong.
There are those on the left who do this to hide their antisemitism.Antisemitism only gose one way to the Arabs and Judaism Jewish.
I agree , yet two wrongs don't make a right. Exspeacilly 1000s of Gaza children. Not needed to pay the ultimate price and the ultimate haunting of these mass murderers.
No one is calling the Saudi military terorists, no one is calling the Egyptian military terrorists. They are a military that fights against other soldiers, unlike Hamas and other terrorist organization. You might want to look up the definition of terrorist. It is not what Trudeau said it is and is not what you seem to think it is.
Terrorists and the military are different. I totally agree. What Hamas did was terrorism. The Atlantic journalist who watched the recent screening of uncut footage of Oct 7, specially screened for foreign journalists, described the acts of Hamas as "pure, predatory sadism". There cannot be a more precise description. However, when the Israeli military started to kill Gazan civilians in hundreds, it could not be called a military action anymore. And the Israeli society, who have seen the innocents being killed in their country, must be careful not to do the same thing in retaliation. Israel needs to find another path, to take out Hamas. A political fight loses its moral standing when it slips into terrorism. In the same way, self-defence loses its moral standing when it slips into revenge in the form of collective punishment of innocent people who have had never a say in the larger scheme of things.
By that logic, we should also posthumously condemn Eisenhower, Roosevelt, and Truman for war crimes since the destrucution of Dresden and Hiroshima were war crimes and not proportional responses.
The US and the allies wanted to destroy Nazi Germany and its supporters like Japan. The Israelis want to destroy Hamas and their supporters.
Innocent civilians were killed in the bombing of Dresden. Do you think that it was justified because some of them supported the Nazi party, or should the allies have just said "Oh, well it wasnt those Germans who invaded the rest of Europe. We should just stop call a cease fire because it is the moral thing to do."
https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/commen … dp=enabled
The mass amount of wars in the history of world are in the US and in Europe. If these wars are not unjust or acts of terrorism, don't know what is. No matter if you call it terrorist beheading or blowing up a human into dozens of body parts ,it's the same. Hadn't heard of terrorism until they were in battle with Muslims.Killing a soldier who goes to war is not the same as killing innocent children. It is not even close to being the same, which is why it is condemned as terrorism.
https://efe.com/en/latest-news/2023-10- … -by-hamas/
I can't find names ,or photos of Israelis children that Hamas killed. This burnt baby doctored with AI doesn't count as evidence.
What about the 1000s of Gaza children killed? and 10"000s to come.This is a list of names and ages of civilians that were slaughtered by the terrorists of Hamas in that attack. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/202 … 5cf0210000
You wlll not find it if you are looking on a leftist leaning site like Google that wants to provide misinformation. If you take a look at that list you will notice adults and children."You wlll not find it if you are looking on a leftist leaning site like Google that wants to provide misinformation. If you take a look at that list you will notice adults and children."
Why would I assign the rightleaning web sites anymore credibility? It seems that for the rightwinger the only acceptable medium is one which tells you what you want to hear. Is it any wonder the rightwinger loathes mainstream media in favor of clearly biased sources?That link was on the front page of Duckduckgo, hardly a rightleaning web site. I am sorry you are not able to admit that Google is biased, but when you look for the peoole killed by Hamas on that search engine all they tell you about is all of the pages about civilians killed in Gaza.
Is it any wonder that the joke website MSNBC is now the laughingstock of anyone that is able to look into the truth?By the way, Google also does this for any web site that does not follow the WHO guidelines, and for any veterinary web site that dares to offer any alternative views. If you look up the negative reviews from a big pharma product, like Cytopoint, you will not find it on Google. If you look at independent search engines lo and behold the things have already been written.
I looked more than Google, they all mentioned Israelis children killed in hamas 7th October
attack. Children being under age 18. They just didn't went into details. Could be a sign of some bias
Probably legit duckduckgo. Can't imagine posting photos and ages and getting away with it.
I love looking at Jewish women so went down your entire list, Had two prior Judaism girlfriends . So beautiful, fun and smart, they were not much like the Zionist I did entertainment business with.
Studied 3 Muslims war zones, it's their practice not to kill children. Was surprised Hamas killed 15 children according to duckduckgo, line up the ducks. Many media said Hamas targeted schools to kill children. October 7th was a Saturday no kids at school. The Israelis list had mostly children that could of been mistaken for Adults. Youngest was 4 years old, not anything like 40 beheaded babies. That one got my goat, I knew from the start. Just dded 25% more to 15 children killed list for unbias opinion. Consider our 1300 killed , 20 kids seem possible by accident. Where a kill of 3,500 children in Gaza and probably 5 times more kids under the rubles of the Israelis air strike bombers..
Like you I don't count soldiers innocent, they are 9 times out of 10 murderers in a uniform or more often Palestinians rock throwers. Like David, Rock and roll the giant.
Tell me who killed by accident and who killed on purpose?
Being a part-time licenced private investigator sometimes pays off.If you look at that list you will see children aged 5, 6,7, and eight. One survivor of that raid reported Hamas firing into the porta-a-potties and they had no idea who was in there.
I certainly do not think you could mistake a 5 year old for an adult.UN General Assembly adopts Gaza resolution calling for immediate and ... https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/10/1142847
Dominantly Muslims nations worldwide condemn Israel of genocide.
Most children victims were late teenagers. No Israel babies on the list to justified 40 beheaded babies. Then compare 3500 Gaza children dead and lots of babies killed. Compared to 15 Israel children , yet no babies on your list.
If you can't see the difference between an accident and on purpose. If I showed you a picture of a cow, could we agree it's a cow?
Same with all the pictures of mass destruction on videos happening Gaza. Over a million displaced, 15,000 missing almost 3 weeks.
Compared in a period of 8 hours in the most secure border in the world, grow a heart.
Ok, Doc, you convinced me, research shows that Haaretz is not just another rightwing rag.
From the Right, every mainstream media source is "biased" against them. But if everyone in the room tells you that you are drunk, perhaps you should sit down.
No one denies that there were mass casualties resulting the Hamas attack. I never had trouble finding out about the extent of casualties in Israel from most any reliable and reputable source.
There is supposed to be difference between a responsible government amongst the family of nations and a terrorist organization. Israel, I presume is the latter. Its world class military organization should be able to target Hamas and minimize civilian casualties.
Dropping a nuke on Afghanistan or Iran after 9-11 would not be considered as a proportional response to the attack by a responsible world power..It's why many are calling Hamas vs Israel the second 9/11. And more at stake with Russia, China and middle east ... west vs east unrest
Hadn't heard of terrorism until they were in battle with Muslims countries. Canada was amazingly peaceful for 150 years until Trudeauism invaded with genderism, carbonism and covidism. He Is at his happiest with LGBTQ pride and drag Queens and they are pro Palestinians. They could blend in well in Israel, if the try a parade into Palestine, they may get stone to death.
US wouldn't call Saudis terrorists. US only invaded countries who refuse US Centro banking and oil sharing. US can easily forgive the 15 Saudi who drove the 9/11 2 paper planes who the Twin Towers. And building 7 just self destructed. About 5 trillion can change anybody mind. Too bad Saudis ditches US for BRICS, karma is a ditch.
Trudeau broke a 150 peaceful code in Canada. Looks like Jews and Ukraine IS4US
"The expansion of Israeli settlements in the West Bank has led the majority of Palestinians to believe that Israel is not committed to reaching an agreement, but rather to a pursuit of establishing permanent control over this territory in order to provide that security.[127]"
------
No one is supporting Hamas, Mike, but that does not relieve Israel of being a honest broker in negotiating correction for grievances of the Palestinians. While this is an intricate and complex matter, to think that Israel does not play a role as to why things are the way they are is naive.
The goals of Hamas and that of Palestinians may well not be the same, as Israel and the American Right would have you believe.I would say when people focus on anything other than the murder of over a thousand innocent Jews as well as over 30 Americans, it's deflection.
Hamas is a terrorist organization.
They started this war with Israel. They attacked soft targets like women, children and babies because they are cowards. Hamas does not have soldiers. They have savages.
They MUST and WILL be eliminated.
As far as I'm concerned at this point in time that is all that matters.The following is my understanding as of Oct 26th.
Israelis deaths 1,400
Hostages more than 200
Palestinian lives lost over 5,000
Injured 15,000
Those numbers give me pause.
Yes, I too say eliminate Hamas. But, at what cost? I toss and turn on that myself.I know that Hamas is a terrorist organization, but in the meantime can't the Israeli government stop with illegal settlements on disputed land?
Hamas may well be eliminated, but there will be no peace for Israel, ever, without a just resolution to the Palestinian question.
How high a price do the residents want to pay?Israelis is not the indigenous people .Or have any other pro Israel arguments.
I made a new post on that and an example of my museum historical work.
Israel is totally surrounded by Muslims countries. Mike sounds like US General Custer last stand, Holy Cow look at all those freaking Indians.
Cred,
A two state solution has been proposed at the beginning of the creation of the modern Israel in 1948. It was also something Israel was willing to agree to at the Camp David accords as well as the Oslo accords.
In 1948, the Palestinians refused to even consider such a proposal. The next times the Palestinians walked out when the subject was about to be discussed.
So, who wants peace? Who wants a two state solution?
Not the Palestinians. If there was a two state solution, and peace was to come to the area, the Palestinian leaders know they would lose a lot of power and influence in the area and around the world.
It's not about peace with the Palestinian leaders. It's about power.
Tell me what the Palestinians have done to bring peace to the area.
I would love to hear what they have done other than murder innocent Jews.Tell me what the Palestinians have done to bring peace to the area.
I will check this out with a broad perspective view...lThe region (or at least a part of it) is also known as the Holy Land and is held sacred among Jews, Christians, and Muslims. Since the 20th century it has been the object of conflicting claims of Zionist and Arab national movements.
Palestine mainly exports cement, base metals, iron and steel, food and beverages, furniture, plastics and dairy products. Palestine's main exports partner is Israel (over 80 percent of total exports)
Why are the liberals in the US congress and the universities calling out for a Palestine from the river to the sea? That means they want the destruction of Israel. They are being simplistic.
I need a second opinion, Doc. Where can you document from a reputable source that this is occurring?
Are you serious? Have you not seen that congress member from Minnesota or that woman from Michigan calling for the destruction of Israel for war crimes?
I have pretty of examples of extremists from the side you always root for who have openly consorted with the Klan and Nazis. Does that define the Republican Party?
Does that extremist who is calling for the destruction of Jews in Israel rate in your book, or are you only willing to call out those on the other side?
The point is Doc, i don't judge an aberration as a general trend and attitude, nor define an entire group based on the musings of extremists on either side.
If i did, the people you pine for would be considered not much better than Satan and the depths of hell, Itself.
I don't want the destruction of either side, but only thru fair and equitable negotiations can that possibility be avoided. I know that principles of fair and equitable evades the conservative mindset, but regardless....
Over the past 75 years, numerous agreements have been reached. In 1947, the United Nations partitioned the land into two states, with the Palestinians receiving the larger portion. Regrettably, they did not accept the agreement and have been engaged in conflicts ever since.
In contrast, Israel has not been the primary instigator of many conflicts. This raises the question of their willingness to consider alternative solutions. They just never have.
It would be wonderful if they would make an attempt to live in peace, but history tells a different story.
A two-state solution would be wonderful, but it has always been a none starting point for the Palestinians. So, where does one go from there?By constantly taking land and building settlements, the credibility of the Israeli government remains suspect. Israel does not have to be the instigator to continue its provocation, forcing others to act.
The world just watch while Gaza gets bombed n' nobodies shocked 'cus it’s just Palestine
Very true, over so many years the problems have become so complicated. It would be hard to say what is right or wrong anymore. I see no real end to the conflict between the two.
However, that would mean Israel would need to give up on what it strived to build and relocate millions of their citizens... I don't see that as plausible.
"It is only conservatives that are simplistic enough to take a side regardless if taking that side is a fair and just solution. It is much like "my country right or wrong". It is an not an excuse for my country to behave badly. Israel is not seeking a fair apportionment of land between itself and Palestinians. Their aggressive settlement policies has been frowned upon by Western Europe and called provocative by the United States. "
Throughout history, it is evident that the UN's land division, where Palestinians actually received 70%, was met with their refusal, leading to 75 years of recurrent conflicts. This stands as an undeniable fact. Israel, on the other hand, accepted the UN's proposal and was willing to adhere to it.
Has Israel ever initiated a conflict without provocation? Yes, they did take control of land after winning conflicts, a common outcome of warfare.
Israel has made genuine efforts to foster peaceful relations but has faced challenges, including suicide bombings and provocations. Their right to self-defense is unwavering.
The Middle East witnessed positive developments following Trump's Abraham Accord. Hopefully, Palestinians will recognize that peace is a superior way of life compared to perpetual conflict.
Talks of a two-state solution resurface once more, as they did 75 years ago. Perhaps this can serve as a starting point for progress.
From a historical perspective in my view, Israel has diligently pursued peaceful solutions for decades. Until the need for checkpoints arose in 1990 due to escalating suicide bombings. It is essential to approach history with an open mind rather than taking sides, and one must be void of bias when looking at what history provides. Israel has never initiated conflict, yet yes they have won in the end, and taken the spoils of war.
In my view, Israel tried long and hard to come to solutions.In my view, Israel tried long and hard to come to solutions.
According to the views of the US Department of State, they are not trying hard enough, Sharlee
The aggressive building of settlements in Palestinian Territories has been considered ill-advised.
Just like the white settlers of the 19th century speaking of peace treaties while taking more land from indigenous people and consigning them elsewhere.
Does the narrative ever really change?However agreement in the pass 75 years between Palestinian and Israel must have been the most Rottnest sub human animals deals ever to agree upon. I've not ever treat my dog on his worst behavior like that.
Somebody must fire the Prime Murderer.A breath of fresh air?
Palestinians are invited to join the human race and have been promoted beyond being mere animals.
All of my hopes that such a solution could be found as a win-win for both sides.But we all are Animals. Biblical text messing around with biological definitions again. Nobody is no better or worst than me.
Can we all get along society? It's possible.
Someone needs to answer this for me? Why is it that students cannot express support for the Palestinians without being subject to a ban on their free speech by the pinheaded Republican?
Do these people not understand what free speech means? And yet you rightwing types expect me to give these sorts of people any credibility?
The GOP Presidential candidates are determined to outdo one another over which among them are the more tyrannical and fascist. Not everybody supports and agree with the Israeli position, we all should have the right to disagree and voice that disagreement peacefully.
We have the Jackass DeSantis feeding his cabal of animals just that much more red meat, to stand first in line among competing despots.
I must keep these kinds of people out of office and I do all I can to discredit the Right from every angle and with every fiber of my being.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics … ael-hamas/
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/ … 24708.html
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 … s-censored
But the infernal and dastardly rightwinger will stop at nothing to continue to link rational Palestinian grievances with Hamas, as they all think they are so clever. Clever like the "Emperor's New Clothes". It the same game the Israeli government has been playing for years....I find lines between left and right blurred more and more. There is extremist left or right ideology I find unbalancing. Like the more scavenger like bald eagle with two wings of the same bird. Palestinians and Zionist is more like two fleas fighting over ownership of an old ancient dog.
I will offer a view, though may be contended by others. And, I am in a writing mood, so take caution this is of length.
It is an overall view, perhaps, of the strong Christian (Evangelical) Right influence on the conservative segment of the populace. Especially with the recent conflict between Israel and Palestine, though Hamas is the instigator and supposedly the target in retaliation for the unjustified horrors they committed upon Israel on Oct. 7th.
(As I write this now at 2 am PDT I am listening to a televangelist speak about the conflict using what happened with Canaan and the Canaanites)
I have always taken the perspective that the Christian (Evangelical) Right is brimming over with Self-righteousness! Self-righteousness is defined by Mr. Webster as, "having or characterized by a certainty, especially an unfounded one, that one is totally correct or morally superior."
I feel that is the attitude today by both sides with the conflict between Israel and Hamas, and alongside that are the views expressed by those who support the everyday populace of Israel and Palestine. In my view that is what the examples in the article you referenced were doing.
Then add into the mix nationalism and religious loyalties. Central to them are beliefs and belief systems. A complex dynamic set full of emotions. Beliefs are exercised by attitudes.
11.4: Attitudes, Values, and Beliefs by Indiana State Universtiy (A relatively short read)
http://kell.indstate.edu/public-comm-in … d-beliefs/
That phenomenon is spilling over today into the general populace as the conflict heats up. Justification is sought for supporting Israel supposedly founded on Biblical truths for whom the land belongs. And, the Jews's right to be there. Along with that is the traditional thought our nation with Israel is the strongest of alliances.
So, without a doubt, everything Israel does is justified. Therefore, any group having an opposing view is not wrong, but morally wrong. In other words, are committing sin against God.
Don't get me wrong, Hamas is evil in my eyes and I condemn them to the depths of Hell! But, I don't take that perspective with the everyday Palestinians any more than I do with the everyday Israelis. They both have suffered from the actions of Hamas!!
"Do these people not understand what free speech means?" IMHO, the nitty-gritty of Free Speech is it always comes with a cost. It is an illusionary concept. A concept is abstract. It is not concrete.
The cost can be as simple as feeling guilt for what was said later. It could be someone disagreeing and criticizing the person who spoke. Oddly, or perhaps just a reality of humanity, the messenger rather than the message is attacked.
Or, it can go to the extent of arrest, lawsuits, or the example the article you shared demonstrated. Countering Free Speech is an MO politically by any position. At question, in my mind, is to what extent is the cost, penalty, or downright cruel punishment!!
Some articles to consider:
Support for Israel shifts among young US evangelical Christians
Israel’s treatment of Palestinians – increasingly seen as unfair – turns younger churchgoers away from Christian Zionism. by Aljazeera (June 1, 2021) Notice the date.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/6/4 … ans-shifts
In face of Israel-Hamas war, maybe Christians should be on every side by National Catholic Reporter (Oct 27, 20230
https://www.ncronline.org/opinion/guest … every-side
"The tensions and fear do not respect borders. We've seen already the anger and frustration play out in our streets, in gatherings of American Jews opposing Israel's response in the nation's capital, in the anguish being lived out in mosque and synagogue, in the search in our institutions of higher education for the correct positioning and language to explain sympathies for one side or the other."
Palestinian Evangelicals Call Western Church to Repentance, Criticized in Return by Christianity Today (Oct 27, 2023)
Middle East Christians assert their rejection of violence as they relate frustration with lack of Western recognition of the reality of occupation and the collateral damage of bombing campaigns
https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/ … ments.htmlThe evangelical Christians are self righteous and hypocritical. Not everybody subscribes to their understanding of Biblical truth. In my world there is no one or anything beyond the need for scrutiny.
There is no excuse for the actions of Hamas and the casulties resulting from their attack. But, Israel is not absolved from culpability for creating the environment where such a thing can happen.
Regardless, we should all be able to express ourselves and our opinions without threats of banning or muzzle from primarily One Side...
Thanks for the article's links.....
When I lived in Saudi Arabia from 1990-1994 I learned something I'd never known before. Any Arab county could provide the Palestinians a home. They don't want them. They refer to them like we referred to Blacks in the 1950s. The Arabs want them right where they are - Gaza - as a thorn in Israel's side and something to point to as people Israel suppresses. They could solve this problem if they wanted to. They don't. They are more interested in obliterating Israel who occupy land they won in a war Arabs started.
Alright, why should the Palestians have to seek a new home?
why should I be intimidated to return to Africa? This is my home.
I cannot hope to compete with the experience of someone who lived in the region.
The international community has spent decades trying to get parity on this issue for both sides, if it could solved as simply as Palestinians abandoning the land in Israel's favor, wouldn't it have been done long ago?
I won't buy that Israel does not have complicit role in perpetuating this crisis.
Disregarding all of this, are not people free to express a dissenting anti-Israeli (note:not anti-Semitic) without being muzzled by the Right?When discussing the Palestinian situation and the question of seeking a new home, it's crucial to acknowledge that the historical and geopolitical context plays a huge role. The Palestinians have deep historical ties to the region, as do the Jews. The conflict is rooted in a long history of competing claims and aspirations from both sides.
It never started with Palestinians being forced to seek a new home, but rather in 1947 the UN addressed the underlying issues and found a just and equitable solution for both Israelis and Palestinians. The Palestinians would not consider the two-state solution that the UN came up with. Even though they got much more of the land than the Jews. Israel has faced one conflict after another from that time to today.
The international community has indeed tried to achieve parity and a peaceful resolution, but the complexity of the situation, with multiple stakeholders and historical grievances, has made it impossible. It would seem the Palestinians should realize after so many lost wars, and losing much of their land due to these wars, that Israel is a state, and will never hand Israel over. The solution is simple -- they need to stop warring and try to come to some form of a two-state solution.
It's essential to emphasize that people should be free to express dissenting opinions and engage in constructive dialogue without being muzzled. However, it's crucial to distinguish between legitimate criticism and hate speech or bigotry. In my view, both sides have valid concerns.
It is important to consider cooperation and understanding from all parties involved is and was necessary to solve this conflict Thus far after 75 years, the Palestinians have no real interest other than reclaiming all of the land that is Israel.
No other arab country wants the Palestinians who are vacating Gaza. Ask yourself why.If you look below that shows 32 countries carrying over 15 million Palestinians, 7 times greater than Gazans.population.
If we look at an Israel map from 1946. Palestinians had the most of the land then it all reverses to Israel owning the majority of the land in 1948.
US has far more influence over the corrupted Israelis military forces than people realize, learn from the best plus 250 billion $. Biden says the death toll of Palestinean are not accurate. Yet UN confirms of the private medical Palestinians body count along with their names. The US and Israel don't do body counts for Palestinian or Iraqis. Biden said he saw photos of the 40 beheaded Israelis babies, yet no names. Public saw a one burnt baby done by AI. I don't believe that as much as I trust Biden saying vaccines are 100% safe. Even Israel was honest enough to find vaccines was a horrible failure.and they were 100% vaxxed
These two Israelis soldiers I do respect for their bravery, truth and conscious.
https://youtu.be/37MFa7ZKQWo?si=4BQpQ_yim5lWq7Ke
The world pendulum swings with every gun and bomb ticks. Don't let your consciousness be a haunted.https://www.britannica.com/topic/two-state-solution
I sort of like this synopsis of what went on.
While it is an issue of many components, Israel taking it all without accommodating Palestinians is certainly not the answer.The closest thing I can relate to this Gaza slaughting of 1000s of innocent civilians. Is the Gandhi stopping the British from 600 year rule under the connon and occupation. By the same means of the slaughter of innocent east Indians. in Gaza It can't be unseen by the entire world now. My faith has been alway by the collective consciousness of the people. After 75 years it's probably has to take a great tragedy of innocent people to change the greatest abuse. , Not the abstract thinking like Winston Churchill and Rothschild Zionist who got them in this cluster Freak show in the first place
What did Gandhi say about the British Empire?
He professed as much when questioned on the subject in 1948, a year after India gained its independence, and a few weeks before his death. “I hold extreme views about British connection,” he said. “In spite of my love of the British people, I think that their imperialism has been their greatest crime against humanity..I like the Brits too, their sense of order and discipline has set a standard.
Imperialism has been practiced by most Western Powers well into the 2oth Century, so the Brits are not the only ones. Much of the problems in the Middle East and North Africa has come from Western Powers imposing an order on people and territories in other societies,Just got scoop from an American military intelligent who actually work with the pior Prime Minister of Israel and the recent one. On what really Hamas was planning for over two years. Like a chess game Hamas and prime minister of Israel, both don't care about the Palestinians at all. Hamas did go in and aim was slaughter these innocent Israelis. In order to make Benjamin so outrageous deranged he at any cost genocide the Palestinians. Just to have the entire world watch Benjamin true evil color shown. He is about the most evil tryran on the face of the earth. My mind is incapable of this kind of military evil strategy. Yet it makes uncommon sense that an Americans military intelligence agent who knows how Hamas and Benjamin think by working with both sides would operate.
Here is the link
https://www.facebook.com/10009087298388 … mnirLUhozF
A an American CIA agent who really knows his stuff
https://www.facebook.com/10009506600277 … l/?app=fbl
I appreciate the informative link, which provides a concise and precise overview of the enduring conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. When we step back and examine the historical backdrop of this issue, it becomes evident that viable solutions have remained elusive. The root of the problem appears to lie in deeply entrenched ideologies, primarily centered around religion and a shared claim to the same land as their homeland.
Despite numerous proposed solutions that seemed equitable, it is clear that the Palestinians have not fully embraced any of them, perpetuating the cycle of conflict. This situation reminds me of the biblical story of the Judgment of Solomon, where two women both claimed to be the mother of a child and were willing to divide the baby. In this case, both sides seem willing to "split the baby," making a peaceful resolution appear increasingly unlikely.
Considering the current trajectory, it is difficult to envision a peaceful resolution. History suggests that the conflict will persist, and Israel's superior military power will likely prevail, leading to an increased Israeli influence over what remains of Gaza. This pattern seems poised to repeat itself.
As I previously mentioned, I still believe the two-state solution offers the best path forward. However, it would require Israel to relinquish some of the territory acquired in previous wars. Realistically, I am skeptical that Israel would be willing to give up land. Nevertheless, I believe that doing so would demonstrate good faith and could signal to the Palestinians a genuine desire to be good neighbors."Realistically, I am skeptical that Israel would be willing to give up land. Nevertheless, I believe that doing so would demonstrate good faith and could signal to the Palestinians a genuine desire to be good neighbors."
There is the rub, Sharlee, if we want to talk about parity and a just settlement, both sides need to be prepared to compromise.I can't argue that point. The problem is, will they? They have a long history of conflict, and I don't see Israel giving up all they have strived to build and have come to enjoy.
Sharlee,
I think you also have to take into consideration the number of wars the Israelites have fought and the number of their military dead to get the land they have as well as to survive.Great point... I don't think after all that they have gone through, and as I mentioned all that they have built, that they would consider a two-state solution where it would require giving any of the territories, as you say fought for. They fully thrived through all kinds of adversities. The Palestinians never thrived, and have been supported by aid from other nations's kindness. Instead of taking the UN's deal of a two-state solution, where they got much more territory than Israel --- they chose war, one after another.
History shows they want all of the land from river to sea...
A two-state solution would be good. But, I see no real solution that will be agreeable to either side. Israel has tried for many years, and at this point, I think they are one hundred percent done with any form of negotiating. Under international law, Israel has always met the standards for recognition as a sovereign state.
It would seem no one can dictate the future of Israel, but the people.
No one has the right to truely interfere. One can correlate the Ukraine and Russia crisis. Just because Russia wants to claim Ukraine as its own, they have no right to. Ukraine is a sovereign Nation.
Proper context is required.
When did Hamas come into being, and why?
What is their stated goal?
They are not a terrorist group, they are an elected government, voted in by the people... more so than our own federal government for sure... to do what those who voted them in, want them to do.
Its not going away anytime soon, and the people at the top deciding if it is going to be an issue or not, aren't interested in any compromise or care what anyone outside of the region think or want.
They especially don't care what America thinks or wants... this is one more conflict, one more situation, most of the world doesn't want to see us involved in.The actions of Hamas and the negotiation of a fair settlement to land disputes in the region are different things. It is just "conservatives" that want to make reasonable requests from Palestinians akin to accommodating terrorists.
Basically, that says that everything Israel wants, it is entitled to, and I won't buy that. Without a greater commitment to comprise and a settlement, Israel will always have to sleep with one eye open and that can be grating on the nerves.You misunderstood my point.
Sometimes I believe you do so deliberately rather than address a point made.
In this instance I do not believe I was clear.
First, what is Hamas, let me offer this link, one made prior to recent events, yet answers the question, even if from a Israeli perspective.
https://www.jta.org/2021/05/20/israel/w … ng-in-gaza
Is Hamas an army? A government? A terrorist organization? The answer is: all of the above. For more than three decades, Hamas has fought, quixotically, to destroy Israel, first through suicide bombings and later through barrages of missiles from Gaza, which Hamas has ruled for more than a decade.
Going further back is more revealing, and helps broaden one's understanding, this link is good for that:
https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/pol … vice-jihad
the records show, Hamas meets in the mosques and hospitals it maintains to plan terror attacks, buries caches of arms and explosives under its own schoolyard playgrounds, and transfers and launders funds for terrorist activity through local charity committees. This book catalogues the alarming extent to which Hamas' political and social welfare leaders support terror.
Drawing a portrait of unprecedented accuracy, Matthew Levitt exposes the real Hamas: an organization that threatens peace and security far beyond the borders of the West Bank and Gaza.
Hamas and Hezbollah alike political participation is just another means -- alongside good works and militancy -- to achieve their goals. Even were Hamas to agree to a long-term hudna with Israel, this would not indicate an end to its struggle against Israel but a shift in the prioritization of its means of doing so.
So... as I have asked you before... what are the goals of Hamas?
Answer: Hamas’s stated goal is the elimination of the State of Israel and its replacement with a Palestinian state governed by Islamic law.
That is what it exists for.
That is what every member of Hamas strives for.
That is what the majority of those who voted for Hamas, who put them in political power, want to see them achieve.
Now tell me, how do you plan on negotiating with that, when nothing less than the destruction of Israel will ever be acceptable?No, you are not listening, let's take Hamas out of the picture. Do you really think that the Palestinian land dispute would just go Away?
It is unfortunate that so large a segment of the Palestinians supported Hamas, but Israeli continual bulldozing and land grabs certainly has forced them to take a hard line as the more moderate advocates have been unsuccessfulYes, there are plenty within Israel that do not recognize Palestinians as a separate people or nation, and never will.
‘No such thing’ as Palestinian people, top Israeli minister says
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/no-s … ister-says
Good luck with that.Yet Israel wants everyone else to recognize them. Respect will have to be a mutual affair or the region will remain perpetual powder keg. There will continue to be no peace for anyone. How long can life go on in a world of pins and needles for the Israelis?
Then it will never happen, for 100% agreement of millions of people is impossible.
I believe you are correct, there is going to be an escalation, there will be no peace for anyone.
I am waiting for the last domino to fall, that will be China. Then we will have a completion of our WWIII scenario, with the majority of the Middle East, Russia and China lined up against America and its allies.
Its not a war I think we will win.
The Deterrence is gone.
Russia has stood down America and NATO in Ukraine.
The once feared Mossad and IDF intelligence was shown up by Hamas.
The myth that America or Israel has superior technology and unmatchable weapons, that their intelligence is vastly superior, no longer exists.A world war 3 start in the west and end it the east .
One hope , those billionaires and thrillioaire that never stop thinking of ways to kill everyone. Who are cold blooded snake, Even these snakes and Crocodile still love their young and family.I believe there is nothing more that Netanyahu would love to do is to rid Palestine of all of its men, women, and children.I have come to the conclusion the leader of the Palestinian territory at the time of the UN Partition screwed up by not accepting the deal the UN offered him.
He was under the impression he and other Arab countries would go to war and defeat the Jews who had taken over their land, But that didn't happen because the other countries were more sympathetic with the returning Jews who survived the.Holocaust.taking over the Palestinian land for the newly formed Jewish state, called Israel.
The Palestinians who were living there were made refugees in their own land as Jews started building their kibbutz on Palestinian land...And that is just the beginning of the conflict that is happening today.You know, Castle, I always believed in reality that national boundaries and all of that particularly in modern times is a mere illusion. The only real flag is the one with the white field and the dollar sign in the middle.
Nationalism and patriotism is just a ruse, a tool to be used by moneyed interests who know no international boundaries to motivate the masses at the risk of their very lives to acquire greater wealth and power for themselves. But, I don't know, I can go back to Ancient Rome and such was the case then, too.Not to be preaching, yet to offer a perspective is the following:
I Timothy 6:10-11
10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
I used italics to emphasize, "Righteousness". That is not Self-righteousness.
Just to think that Israel has three other countries that they have stronger enimies with than Gaza. Lebanon, Syrians and Iran.
I divorce my Government, but they keep bossing me around and demanding half my money
Once Nelson Mandela, IRA, were called terrorist by America. More than any group in the world, American
are called Terrorist. Kinda looses it's meaning.
Democide is more used now by Israelis towards Palestinians. Democide is 6 times more deadly than genocide.
Democide refers to "the intentional killing of an unarmed or disarmed person by government agents acting in their authoritative capacity and pursuant to government policy or high command. Death by Government, but has also been described as a better term than genocide to refer to certain types of mass killings. Covers a wide range of deaths, including forced labor and concentration camp victims, extrajudicial summary killings, and mass deaths due to governmental acts of criminal omission and neglect, such as in deliberate famines like the Holodomor
A former American marine has gone Palestinians, he burnt his American passport.
https://youtu.be/u5dq2ilfCJ4?si=8IBQwjcx2X_tjtDE
Credence 2: No one need be muzzled. Americans just need to be aware there is much more to this regional situation than the latest headline.
A few people on these posts, talk like Palestinian are sub human or wild animals like they have rabies or leprosy. How is humanity to survive by punching down so hard on any group of people. If they don't get UN humanity supplies much faster, most Palestinian will die of disease.
Because of some Israelis Occupational inhumane forced war agreement and threats like no countries will accept them ever.
Here are the countries have accepted these animals. Animals, I mean that in the mammal sense of the word, I love them too
– West Bank
3,190,000[1] (of whom 809,738 are registered refugees as of 2017)[2][3][4]
– Gaza Strip
2,170,000 (of whom 1,386,455 are registered refugees as of 2018)[1][5][2][3]
Jordan
2,175,491 (2017, registered refugees only)[2]–3,240,000 (2009)[6]
Israel
2,037,000 [7]
Syria
568,530 (2021, registered refugees only)[2]
Chile
500,000[8]
Saudi Arabia
400,000[9]
Qatar
295,000[9]
United States
255,000[10]
United Arab Emirates
200,000[11]
Lebanon
174,000 (2017 census)[12]–458,369 (2016, registered refugees)[2]
Honduras
27,000–200,000[9][13]
Germany
100,000[14]
Kuwait
80,000[15]
Egypt
70,000[9]
El Salvador
70,000[16]
Brazil
59,000[17]
Libya
59,000[9]
Iraq
57,000[18]
Canada
50,975[19]
Yemen
29,000[9]
United Kingdom
20,000[20]
Peru
15,000[citation needed]
Mexico
13,000[9]
Colombia
12,000[9]
Netherlands
9,000–15,000[21]
Australia
7,000 (est.)[22][23]
Sweden
7,000[24]
Algeria
4,030[25]
I wouldn't want to live in Saudi Arabia with their lack of freedoms laws, no matter how wealthy they are. There is alot more Palestinians than Americans living in Saudi Arabia. Americans allowed 15 Saudis on 2 planes to knock down twin towers and another building that just self destructed. Sounds familiar to October 7th. Because all is fair in war, Centro banking and oil. Now that Saudi Arabia is joining the BRICS, I wonder if Americans will be treated like Palestinian. Because their own homes are collapsing for at least the poor.
Good thing I've got a thick skin, if I had a bleeding heart sharks would get meWe actually lived in Saudi because my husband served in the U.S. Army. Assumptions are dangerous things.
I'm curious what type of work your husband did for the Army (MOS).
I only know of US Air Force bases in Saudi Arabia.
Was it a special assignment?RMN: The US Army has had Army and Air Force advisors in Saudi since the 1970s. There are two branches of the Saudi military: the national guard (not part time like ours) who basically guard the royal family from the other side of the army which is the general armed forces. My husband was an advisor to the national guard during and after Desert Storm. Do you remember the battle of Khafji - the one time Iraq ventured into Saudi in 1991? SANG fought and won that battle and US forces were awarded the Bronze Star. Do you remember the office building that was bombed in 1995 in Riyadh? That was the building the US advisors worked in. It was the first attack against Americans by the organization that would become known as al Qaeda. We lost four friends. US advisors and their families are still there. I wrote a book about the experience, if you are interested.
Was your husband special forces?
Sounds like work for someone from special forces.
They are labeled as "advisors" in many places around the world.
I was in Saudi Arabia as a civilian.
It was a culture shock and I was only there for a few weeks.
How long did you live there?My husband was airborne/ranger/infantry but never special forces. During Desert Shield/Sword there were many deployed Special Forces added to the organization and they were the "boots on the ground" with the Saudi soldiers. It was definitely a culture shock - especially 30 years ago. We lived there from September 2, 1990 to July 4 (my personal Independence Day) 1991. My husband has been back several times before he retired from the Army.
If your husband was an airborne ranger, he was considered special forces.
He spent some time at the Army vacation resort known as Fort Bragg. I know it well.
I would only return to Saudi Arabia if it was necessary for my business.RMN: I understand. He was never assigned to a Special Forces unit.
Thank you for your service.
To resolve pain, we inflict more pain. To right a wrong, we do more wrong. That is what we are. Israel, Palestine, Jews, Muslims; all are terms we invented. As the famous entomologist, E.O. Wilson remarked about Socialism and Communism, the above are all great ideas but it seems we are the wrong species. We complicate simple things and destroy everything beautiful. It is pathetic that we call ourselves a civilisation.
Crazy amount of oxymoron words many will throw around today. Like Civil war or military intelligence and Queers for Palestinian.
The Prime Minister of Israel is one of the worst tyrants against humanity on the face of the earth. Both him and Hamas don't care at all about their people. it's a chess game of what ever it takes. I knew something was fishy about October 7 incompetence of Israelis border. Here is a link that makes uncommon sense . From an American military officer who work with Israelis military intelligence.
https://www.facebook.com/10009087298388 … mnirLUhozFA MESSAGE FROM SON OF HAMAS LEADER MOSAB HASSAN YOUSEF
https://twitter.com/giezwacoin/status/1 … 5680535885As they say, there are two sides for every story. This is from the Palestinian view point and starts with Ben-Gurion and the Zion movement. Let me make myself clear. I condemns Hamas for what they have done to the Israeli people, but what Israel has done to the Palestinians should not be praised as well. It is a necessarily long read. I believe to understand this conflict in all it nuances, it should not be oversimplified.
Here is the Basic Premises of Ben-Gurion and his Zionist movement.
Some of the rules of behavior set by Ben-Gurion remain and are influential to this day. Existential Insecurity: “Israel’s security problem is unlike the security problems of any other country: It is not a problem of borders, sovereignty – but a problem of physical existence, simple and straightforward.”
Basic Suspicion of Arab Intentions: “The Arabs in Israel must be judged according to what they might do, not according to what they have done.”
Contempt and Condescension Toward the Jewish Immigrants from Arab Countries: “Those from Morocco had no education. Their customs, the customs of the Arabs. They love their wives but beat them... Maybe in the third generation someone will appear among the Jews of the Mizrahi denomination who is a little different, but I don’t see it yet.”
Distrust of the Nations of the World: “On its long journey on the stage of world history, for 4,000 years, covering most countries of the world, east and the west, north and south, our people has constantly met with expressions of hatred and enmity, false accusations and assaults, persecutions and torture, destruction and slaughter… the hatred and enmity …took many different forms, but its contents did not change much…”
Ben-Gurion also stated in 1937, that every compromise over the partition of the land should be accepted but the borders of the State must not be set: “The possibilities for expansion will not be realizable if, from the first moment, the Jewish state does not direct all its efforts, its actions and its relationships – in construction, in the creation of power and in the establishment of its relations with its neighbors – toward our expansion in the country, with the desire, agreement and cooperation of our Arab neighbors.” This premise guides Israel today.
All these statements haunt us till this very day and serve as a basis for the policies of our leaders and even as grounds for the sentiments of the general public.
This reality was softened during the term of Prime Minister Levi Eshkol, who replaced Ben-Gurion in 1963. His government moderated the authoritarian traits dominant during Ben-Gurion’s rule, such as the cancellation of the military regime in 1966. The Six-Day War broke out in 1967, however, and Israel found itself in control of the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, the Golan Heights, and the Sinai Peninsula. This conquest was particularly significant for the Palestinian population in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, where Jewish settlements soon began to spring up in their midst.
The Occupation and the Emergence of Religious Zionism
Thus began the period of occupation that continues to this day. Israel controls a huge population (in the case of the Gaza Strip, from the outside) by trampling on human rights, confiscating land, collective punishment, expulsions, house demolitions, torture, creating an infrastructure of tens of thousands of collaborators, mass arrests (hundreds of thousands) including children, widespread imprisonment, killing and injuring a population which does not want to live under occupation - including those who are not engaged in violence. According to the occupiers’ doctrine, all resistance to the occupation is considered terrorism, and the occupied are not allowed to express their protest against the occupation in any way, even nonviolently.
This state of affairs has lasted for more than 55 years and has destroyed Palestinian society. Both right- and left-wing governments have expanded Jewish control and settled some 200,000 Jews in occupied East Jerusalem, and approximately 475,000 Jews in some 125 settlements, and more than 100 illegal outposts in the West Bank. The effects of the occupation have spilled over into the State of Israel itself in many ways, such as discrimination against Palestinian citizens of Israel, delegitimization of the Jewish opposition to the occupation, restrictions on the free flow of information, etc.
These developments were led by the religious Zionists beginning already in 1967, with the support of the Greater Land of Israel movement that arose from the political, cultural, military, and social elites of both the left and the right. The influence of the Gush Emunim movement founded in 1974, after the shock of the Yom Kippur War spread and penetrated all aspects of the Israeli regime: political, social, economic, judicial, security, educational, and cultural. The entire system was captured by the idea of a Greater Land of Israel and cooperated fully.
The judicial system, including the Supreme Court, accepted the lies of army officers and provided legitimacy for settlement construction under the guise of building military bases and, over time, found ways to authorize all the violent methods of the occupation. The economic system financed this enterprise. The educational system justified it with the removal of the Green Line from maps of Israel already in 1972.
The military protected the security of the settlers and helped them expand into Palestinian areas. Without the support of all the governments, right and left, it would have been impossible to establish and maintain the occupation and the settlement of Jews in the occupied territories. The religious Zionists and supporters of the Greater Land of Israel penetrated all the corridors of government and furthered their aims with strength, cunning, and determination. Israeli governments violated Israeli laws and proper procedures in providing support for the settlement enterprise, which also violates international law. All this was done in spite of the vast majority of countries around the world, including Israel’s friends, which view the settlements as illegal and call for ending the occupation.Emotional intelligence is most lacking in both sides. If it not Hamas it will have be some other form of Government and military for Palestinians. Can't imagine living in a world at this level of this over emotional inefficient, hateful and murderers way of thinking.
The biggest question that needs an immediate answer is why did Benjamin Netanyahu ignore a report detailing the plans of the attack by Hamas?
They even had intelligence of Hamas running their training exercises for the attack.
Israeli officials obtained Hamas’ battle plan for the Oct. 7 terrorist attack more than a year before it happened, documents, emails and interviews show. But Israeli military and intelligence officials dismissed the plan.
The approximately 40-page document, which Israeli authorities code-named “Jericho Wall,” outlined, point by point, exactly the kind of devastating invasion that led to the deaths of about 1,200 people.
Then, in July, just three months before the attacks, a veteran analyst with Unit 8200, Israel’s signals intelligence agency, warned that Hamas had conducted an intense, daylong training exercise that appeared similar to what was outlined in the blueprint.
Is this pure stupidity and incompetence? I do not believe that Israeli military and intelligence has ever been considered inept. Quite the contrary actually. So what is this?The document circulated widely among Israeli military and intelligence leaders, but experts determined that an attack of that scale and ambition was beyond Hamas’s capabilities, according to documents and officials. It is unclear whether Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu or other top political leaders also saw the document. Read more New York Times ---
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/worl … gence.html
It will be interesting to see if a full investigation is done, and what it will provide."The biggest question that needs an immediate answer is why did Benjamin Netanyahu ignore a report detailing the plans of the attack by Hamas?"
Does it really matter?
There is evidence that FDR actually intended to get Japan to attack.
"Ten days before the attack on Pearl Harbor", Henry L. Stimson, United States Secretary of War at the time, "entered in his diary the famous and much-argued statement – that he had met with President Roosevelt to discuss the evidence of impending hostilities with Japan, and the question was 'how we should maneuver them (the Japanese) into the position of firing the first shot without allowing too much danger to ourselves.'" However Stimson, in reviewing his diary after the war, recalled that the commanders at Pearl Harbor had been warned of the possibility of attack, and that the poor state of readiness that the attack had revealed was a surprise to him"
There were people who knew 9/11 was going to happen before it occurred.
"The 9/11 attacks were a shock, but they should not have come as a surprise. Islamist extremists had given plenty of warning that they meant to kill Americans indiscriminately and in large numbers. Although Usama Bin Ladin himself would not emerge as a signal threat until the late 1990s, the threat of Islamist terrorism grew over the decade."
Like the American leaders; is Netanyahu guilty of anything more than poor judgement that lead to a catastrophe?It does matter and we get to the bottom of this. We need to know if a leader of a country we are providing aid to ignored intelligence because of ineptness or did it willfully. Benjamin Netanyahu is a zealot and the truth needs to be uncovered. What if he purposefully ignored this information from a year ago? That would be heinous in so many ways. I'm not willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, I want the facts.
These are issues for the citizens of Israel to address.
In the course of history such things are not uncommon.
Whatever Netanyahu has done will never justify the actions of Hamas.So true, but some like to dance around the pure barbaric atrocities, rape, killing children, putting babies in ovens to die... It is in my view inexcusable to even try to divert from such crimes, and blame any other for what Hamas has done.
At best, we can truely see and identify those that seem to have this form of mindset.What mindset? To be able to see things are they actually are? It is no diversion to be able to hold two atrocious realities in a mind at the same time. Because Hamas is barbaric and horrendous does not automatically make Benjamin Netanyahu a saint. It will not absolve any sin he commits, or has committed.. not in my mind anyway.
Acknowledging The faults of Benjamin Netanyahu certainly does not diminish or let Hamas off the hook in any stretch of the imagination. I continue to struggle on this forum that for every black there must be a white and for every good there must be an evil and in every situation we have to cast our characters as such. I don't buy it sorry. It's so simplistic and denies the realities of a complex situation.
Currently we have credible report that he ignored the planning of the Hamas attack, why?
He is either extremely inept along with his intelligence and military. We know that the Israeli intelligence and military is not that inept.
Did Netanyahu leave his people open to an attack to have reason to commit the full on genocide of the Palestinian people that we are all here in America comfortably sitting back and watching in real time? Talk about a mindset LOL. And that seems to be at the forefront of the reporting in Israel and in the minds of Israelis.
Yes it is for their citizens to take care of but as a citizen of this country I'm not in favor of money funding Netanyahu under this cloud of suspicious motives. The man may have sacrificed his own people to launch this war in Gaza.
Currently they are bombing the south of Gaza where they instructed Palestinians to move to. They literally have nowhere to go within that strip. It is actual shooting fish in a barrel. This is okay with the righteous, Christian people of America? It's hard for me to rationalize the needless killing that's going on in Gaza. Please don't tell me again about the atrocities of Hamas.. I realize they were barbaric. But what if Netanyahu left his people vulnerable to attack on purpose?
Many put stock in polls. 76% of Israelis want Netanyahu out.
Just a story from an Israeli resident..
"Noam Tibon was swimming in the Mediterranean Sea on Oct. 7 when he heard sirens, followed by an alarming text message: Hamas militants had infiltrated his son's community in southern Israel.
He told his son to lock himself in a safe room. Then Tibon, a retired major general in Israel's army, grabbed his pistol, hopped in his car — and drove south from Tel Aviv, making phone calls along the way.
"I tried the chief of staff, the southern commander and the division commander — I know all of them — but nobody responded to me," Tibon, 62, tells NPR.
No one responded? Hamas was let to do their bidding for 7 hours... Let that sink in."What mindset? To be able to see things are they actually are? It is no diversion to be able to hold two atrocious realities in a mind at the same time. Because Hamas is barbaric and horrendous does not automatically make Benjamin Netanyahu a saint. It will not absolve any sin he commits, or has committed.. not in my mind anyway. Acknowledging The faults of Benjamin Netanyahu certainly does not diminish or let Hamas off the hook by any stretch of the imagination. "
Your proof that Netanyahu knew of any of the said information. As I said some respond to the mindset of guilty before proven innocent. Plus the reality is the Palestinians voted for Hamas to represent them. These people have a factual 75 years of history that show them provoking war after war with Israel. Wars that they have lost on every occasion. They have lost much of their land due to wars, and this time, I assume they will be policed, and have no land to call their own. This was a long time coming but will be what is needed to stop their sick aggressions.
Is it not hypocritical to accuse others of ascribing to a "black and white" mindset, when you continually exhibit that very form of mindset? In my view, this is a very leftist talking habit, and they are typically exhibiting that mindset in the very comments they are bringing up. Sort of silly.
Your view is clear regarding the Oct 7th. You have a right to see it as you see it.
Not sure why you look to place blame on the injured party. Odd in my perspective.
"Did Netanyahu leave his people open to an attack to have reason to commit the full on genocide of the Palestinian people"
Sorry but am not sure how anyone could even share such a despicable sentiment.
"They" have nowhere to go because their reputation precedes them, no one wants them, and no one ever will. They have a 75-year reputation for unprovoking war.
From my view what has "sunk in" is the atrocity that these barbarians committed. In my view, the Palestinians need to be pushed as far away from Israel as possible. They are, and always have supported war with Israel.
Personally, and honestly, your view sickens me. The only genocide that I have witnessed is what Hamas did on Oct 7th to innocent men, women, and children. There is no grey that in any respect be applied to the crimes they perpetrated. How any human being could excuse what occurred sickens me. Hopefully, you understand we think very differently about this situation, and you shared your honest views, as I have now shared mine.
You are diverting, looking for someone to blame other than the barbarians who started a war and committed genocide.
Thus far it is unclear if Netanyahu even saw any of the information.
In my view, it seems like you buy into a mindset that believes in - guilty until found innocent. As many on the left are well known for. Your posts frequently share that attitude.I don't think I ever said I believed that he was guilty. Only that suspicious of him is being widely discussed in the Israel press and among Israelis. Almost 80% want him ousted. I would like the facts uncovered. No, he does not deserve a pass. It is also certainly no diversion to consider all aspects of a complex issue. Anything else would be narrow-minded. Maybe that's the difference, I'm not looking to blame anyone. I'm not looking for a "side" to support. I can acknowledge that the issue is more complex than anyone here cares to recognize. I can recognize that Hamas is barbaric and at the same time recognize that the government of Israel may have had a role that needs to to investigated. Oh why is that so difficult? As far as genocide, I'm sure there will be much learned in the future.
I did not accuse you of saying he was guilty. This is what I said -- "In my view, it seems like you buy into a mindset that believes in - guilty until found innocent. As many on the left are well known for. Your posts frequently share that attitude." Note the word "seems". I believe all who posted on this subject have individual opinions on the problems between Israel and the Palestinians. Most here have included a long history. Which ultimately must be taken into account. The root of this war goes far back into the history of the Palestinians. In each war that they have started, they are not willing to take the consequences, which is putting their own in danger, destruction, and loss of more land. Each of their wars has produced death and more loss of land. This war will be no diffrent. This is not my view, it is history. One would find it hard to feel overly empathetic due to this history. I feel empathy for the death they have brought to their children who have no chance of ever having the chance to thrive beyond waging war on Jews.
Throughout your comment, you insinuate that Benjamin Netanyahu may have played a part in not preventing an attack on his people... Right down to the last sentence --- "No one responded? Hamas was let to do their bidding for 7 hours... Let that sink in." You are smearing and slandering this man without cause, just because you can. This is another very common ploy of leftists. Through a shadow over an incident or words to twist it to your liking. This form of mindset is nonsensical and works to sew misinformation which can foment discord and ultimately can foment hate.
Perhaps you may read your comment, and ascertain its clear context.
Your comment in full --- "What mindset? To be able to see things are they are? It is no diversion to be able to hold two atrocious realities in a mind at the same time. Because Hamas is barbaric and horrendous does not automatically make Benjamin Netanyahu a saint. It will not absolve any sin he commits, or has committed.. not in my mind anyway.
Acknowledging The faults of Benjamin Netanyahu certainly does not diminish or let Hamas off the hook in any stretch of the imagination. I continue to struggle on this forum that for every black there must be a white and for every good there must be an evil and in every situation we have to cast our characters as such. I don't buy it sorry. It's so simplistic and denies the realities of a complex situation.
Currently we have credible report that he ignored the planning of the Hamas attack, why?
He is either extremely inept along with his intelligence and military. We know that the Israeli intelligence and military is not that inept.
Did Netanyahu leave his people open to an attack to have reason to commit the full on genocide of the Palestinian people that we are all here in America comfortably sitting back and watching in real time? Talk about a mindset LOL. And that seems to be at the forefront of the reporting in Israel and in the minds of Israelis.
Yes it is for their citizens to take care of but as a citizen of this country I'm not in favor of money funding Netanyahu under this cloud of suspicious motives. The man may have sacrificed his own people to launch this war in Gaza.
Currently they are bombing the south of Gaza where they instructed Palestinians to move to. They literally have nowhere to go within that strip. It is actual shooting fish in a barrel. This is okay with the righteous, Christian people of America? It's hard for me to rationalize the needless killing that's going on in Gaza. Please don't tell me again about the atrocities of Hamas.. I realize they were barbaric. But what if Netanyahu left his people vulnerable to attack on purpose?
Many put stock in polls. 76% of Israelis want Netanyahu out.
Just a story from an Israeli resident..
"Noam Tibon was swimming in the Mediterranean Sea on Oct. 7 when he heard sirens, followed by an alarming text message: Hamas militants had infiltrated his son's community in southern Israel.
He told his son to lock himself in a safe room. Then Tibon, a retired major general in Israel's army, grabbed his pistol, hopped in his car — and drove south from Tel Aviv, making phone calls along the way.
"I tried the chief of staff, the southern commander and the division commander — I know all of them — but nobody responded to me," Tibon, 62, tells NPR.
No one responded? Hamas was let to do their bidding for 7 hours... Let that sink in."Presenting the facts is not slander. The IDF did not respond to the attack until 7 hours later. That's a fact. I recounted the story of one man in my post above. He concurs that no one came until 7 hours later. Yes, despite having some of the most advanced intelligence in the world. It's a fact that they sat on knowledge that they had for a year that Hamas was preparing to attack them. They even chose to ignore the visual facts that Hamas was running through drills. None of this can be ignored or swept under the rug. And let's be very clear that because I make this statement does not automatically make me a supporter of Hamas.
Neytanyahu can be incompetent, Hamas can be barbaric and innocent Palestinians are dying... all these statements can be true at the same time. None of the statements place blame or support.Your comments offer conjecture... You view without any form of source to back up such conjecture. Is it fair to make such statements without proof? I have not read anything other than conjecture on the Oct 7th timeline.
I have read that it is unclear if Netanyahu was aware of the reports you speak of.
Perhaps you could offer a source that the information was shared with him.
"all these statements can be true at the same time. None of the statements place blame or support."
Really? Here are a couple of your statements that say appear to offer contexts that "place blame"...
"The biggest question that needs an immediate answer is why did Benjamin Netanyahu ignore a report detailing the plans of the attack by Hamas?
They even had intelligence of Hamas running their training exercises for the attack."
"Benjamin Netanyahu is a zealot and the truth needs to be uncovered. What if he purposefully ignored this information from a year ago? That would be heinous in so many ways. I'm not willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, I want the facts."
No problem with sharing views. But don't claim that context in your comments doesn't in this case place blame. Because it's clear your views do openly place blame. Can't have it both ways.
Related Discussions
- 211
All Things Israel and Palestine
by Scott Belford 12 hours ago
First, let me say that I support Israel's right to exist, always have and always will. I also support Palestine's right to exist as well.Let me also say that the Donald Trump of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, is trying to destroy everything that Israel stands for. His one-state solution...
- 40
Israel V Palestine What is your solution
by safiq ali patel 10 years ago
The topic of Israeli and Palestinian relations comes up often. Be it when bombs and shelling kick off in the disputed territories, or be it when either side steps up a campaign for recognition. We have all over the years got used to the Israel and Palestinian Issue being a hot topic of debate. In...
- 27
What is your stand regarding the war between Israel and Palestine?
by Lady Jen Palven 11 years ago
What is your stand regarding the war between Israel and Palestine?
- 20
3 isreali kids killed, 1 Palestinian burnt.
by Deforest 9 years ago
Who will benefit from it? The Palestinians or the Israelis? Remember the King David hotel bombing by the Irgun in 1946, in Ramla in 1948, the Buenos Aires Israeli ambassy bombed by Israelis in 1992, Sept 11 in the US... Killing those three kids would fit their modus operandi justifying to the eyes...
- 14
What's your solution to the Israel-Palestine problem? Would like to hear your p
by Shil1978 13 years ago
What's your solution to the Israel-Palestine problem? Would like to hear your personal solutions!!
- 24
Israel and U.S.stand alone. Gaza is starving like world War 2.
by Castlepaloma 3 months ago
https://youtu.be/9s_R9XRbEnU?si=lQ9dszQdQSCDqikTGaza per capita is starving greater than anywhere in the world. The greatest weapon in world War 2 was starvation.. the world demands anther ceasefire. I protest every US war in my lifetime, except the Cold war of USSR. Because War solved nothing. and...