This is why we think you hate this country.
http://www2.nationalreview.com/video/vi … 310_C.html
Even if one did, everyone who looks like they might come from the same ethnic group of the person that did should have to show a government ID card to the police when asked for it.
So let me see if I have this:
desecrating a flag in protest = hates America.
talking about seceding, killing the president = good patriotic folk.
Am I right?
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Why do you hate the Bill of Rights?
Nobody has a problem with anyone peacefully gathering.
Or preventing free speech.
I didn't say they couldn't desecrate the flag.
I just think people that do and those that support them hate this country.
Why do you hate me exercising my right to free speech?
No, they don't hate it, they're exercising one of the most sacred rights granted by it.
Stupid people do silly crap like that all the time. The best way to get even is to not legalize them. Remember the altered national anthem in spanish? It's just a dumb way to bring attention - negative attention and it doesn't help their cause any.
How do you propose identifying those who desecrated a flag or sang the national anthem in Spanish, in order to deny them a path to citizenship?
I don't propose to identify them. Just don't legalize the illegals until they go home and do it properly.
Good thing the Wampanoag didn't feel that way. White folks would have had to stay in Europe.
A great example. The case of the Native Americans are exactly why you should enforce legal immigration and protect your borders. They lost an entire continent because they let a few Europeans settle.
For once you came up with something that I agree with Ron, even though that was not your intention.
So Mexicans are now going to give us blankets infested with smallpox?
Which European country will you now be willingly returning to.
It's the right thing to do in your opinion. You don't want to live here as the descendant of illegals do you?
Man you fall for every anti-american blanket-infested smallpox story!
I haven't said anything about Americans returning to where-ever. In my case I'd have to be split up because I'm a teensy part native American. So since it was your idea, you get out.
And now, as a descendent of those murdering illegals, you want to keep everyone else out.
Seems conveniently illogical.
Isn't that the history of this country?
The minute someone gets in, they want to keep everyone else out.
Illogical? Hello, do you let someone steal what you stole?
Okay, I'll go with that. How about immoral?
Immoral? How so? You think letting the Mexicans steal from the Native Americans is more moral?
It's not a great example at all. The English/Spanish/etc. colonists to the New World used a combination of superior weaponry, enslavement, forced relocation, and germ warfare to annihilate an estimated 90% of indigenous North Americans.
For the current Mexican influx to compare in the slightest they'd need to be wielding space alien laser death rays, carrying diseases that kill 80-90% of afflicted US citizens (but only 30-35% of Mexicans), and herding the survivors into Nazi style forced labor camps and desolate relocation camps thousands of miles from home.
Of course it's a great example. When the Mayflower landed, did the settlers get permission from the local Native Americans? No they just landed, settled, chopped down trees that they didn't themselves grow to send back to England for money. There wasn't a whole bunch of em and after a hard winter the Native Americans could have wiped them off but they didn't. This was a mistake because it encouraged future settlers to come in.
Hellooo! Lesson to be learned. Protect your borders.!!!
Just for the record most of the early European settlers in America did not come here illegally. For them to have been illegal there would have had to be an immigration law for them to violate and that did not happen until many many years after The Unites States declared it's independence.
Also for that record, there are a lot of Americans who, like me, have ancestors who came here, legally, generations ago (but long after the English settlers). So you have a lot of Americans who came from legal immigrants generations ago, who had nothing to do with the whole settlers/Native Americans thing anyway, and were born here.
That same, old, thing about people either pretending not to understand the difference between illegal and legal, or else being incapable of seeing the difference, keeps going on over and over and over.
illegal immigration is a nonsense term.
As soon as you can explain why "Someone moving to another area of the Earth in order to have a better life" can in ANYWAY be immoral.... i'll buy it.
But until then, we just have a tyrannical law passed by people who think they can constrict the flow of people who want a good life.
Yeah, as far as I'm concerned it's only immoral if you're stealing from others to do so. In this case, I don't think it qualifies since all they're "stealing" is crappy jobs (some of them literally slave labor) that no American would want to do anyway. We can kick out illegals or we can have cheap food. We can't have both.
As someone married to a legal immigrant, my heart also goes out to anybody so desperate for a better life that they're willing to leave their home, family, and country behind.
A lot of them don't have any other choice than to do it illegally - it costs thousands of dollars in fees (more if you hire a lawyer) and years of waiting to get a green card, let alone citizenship. In some cases, the wait can literally be decades - if you're a 4th priority family-based would-be immigrant from the Philippines, the USCIS is processing your application right now if you filed it in April of 1990. And of course there's the usual bureaucratic snafus - my husband's application got delayed because somebody inadvertently assigned his A number to some lady in New Jersey. She got hers earlier than she would have; my husband had to wait two extra years while the mix-up was corrected.
Work permits are also much harder to come by than you'd think. Most work visas require higher degrees of education than the typical illegal immigrant has, and the easier types of visa to get, such as F-1 student, require you to demonstrate that you or your sponsor have a full year's tuition, room, and board at an American school in your bank account, and we all know how cheap that is! Working your way through is not possible, unless you/your sponsor can demonstrate financial hardship, and it's not possible to apply for a hardship-based work permit for at least one year.
I would simply like to comment on the idea of immigrants ""stealing" ... crappy jobs... that no American would want to do anyway"
they aren't stealing anything (as you point out sufficiently via the sarcastic quotes!) -- all they're doing is offering to do the same labor for cheaper! Thus they are making things cheaper! - They are decreasing the demand for labor, thus making labor cheaper for all employers! They are marvelous wondrous people!
Think of it this way - if the world had 10 strawberries, strawberries would be expensive! But if there were a billion strawberries, then strawberries would be cheaper!
If the world had 10 people to do labor, then labor would be expensive (and it would be cost efficient to create machines to do labor) and thus the end product would be expensive! But if there were 10,000 laborers, then labor would be cheaper and the prices of the things that are produced would be cheaper.
Never once said that moving to another part of earth was immoral.
But entering into a country where you are not a citizen without going through the proper immigration procedure makes one an illegal immigrant.
I have never heard of an immoral immigrant.
i never claimed you did! You're entirely missing the point!
Any law that makes "making your life better" illegal is complete nonsense and should be completely ignored and even INTENTIONALLY broken.
I'm not saying that YOU claimed that illegal immigrants are evil... or whatever you're construing my argument to be! I have not claimed your heart to be black!
I am simply saying that the law is nonsense!! My friends from Japan have lived in the US for upwards of 15 years... AND THEY CAN'T BECOME CITIZENS!!! They can't get green cards!!
Illegal immigration is complete and utter bull ****!!!! We must do away with it, and embrace EVERYONE who wants to come here.
It has nothing to do with identifying people who did these things. It has to do with people who entered the country illegally while millions of us had to wait on line, actually follow the law, apply years ahead to come here, have documentation to receive jobs and add our skilled talents to the work force of America... not add to the 10% unemployment problem by competing for the same jobs with people who are here legally and just want to work for their money.
The most interesting thing is not a single one of you illegal supporters denounced this act.
what's to denounce? some guys put some poo on a symbol of government?
I mean... I disagree with the poo ... but... didn't we already address this issue with the burning of the flag?
Its not a symbol of government the flag is a symbol of the United States.
If it were possible to put "poo" on a symbol of government I would put it on Barack Obama.
He represents the inefficiency and incompetence of government.
The symbol in question is the official flag of these United States of America. This Federation in question is a system of government agreed upon by 50 individual states.
The US IS government, thus a symbol of the US IS a symbol of government.
OK first of all Jim, Obama has only president a year and a half, this country was run inefficiently and imcompentley (big time) for 8 years prior to his becoming president. We were in the toilet when he got there. No pun intended.
I also find it interesting that no one says anything about the fact that regardless of their opinion coming into the country illegally is still A CRIME. And as someone stated earlier, grossly unfair to those who take the time and money to it properly. Additionally, illegals (and i know this for a fact) HATE HATE HATE having to pay taxes and do NOT want to be legal and on the books paying taxes to this government. They would rather send it back to the country they come from and let their relatives spend it there. They prefer being under the radar and just using our public services. That is not MY opinion that is my observation.
you have your argument all backwards.
It isn't "unfair" to those who come "legally" - If two people come to this land, and one does it in a fancy jet and one does it by having his daughter raped (this is a method of payment for getting across the border: look up "rape tree"), it isn't UNFAIR to the rich guy in a jet that the daughter got raped!!!
It's UNFAIR to EVERYONE that wants to have a NICE LIFE that they have to put up with STUPID IDIOTIC UNFAIR AND UNJUST laws to attempt to live a better life!!!
My friends who have lived in the US for over 15 years WANT to live here in the US, but because they came out of their mother in a land called "japan" the US government says that they can't without doing 8 billion different things and putting their lives on hold for decades because they don't earn 6 digits in income.
Immigration laws are UNJUST and need to be purged. They are a detriment to the ideals of "wanting a better life for your family". Anyone wants to have a better life, but is PRO-immigration laws is a complete hypocrite.
And to address your second point about the welfare state we currently live in... how is that the fault of the immigrants? If we allow the government to steal half of our paychecks and then give the money to random people... why are you complaining? you've allowed the state to steal your money! End the welfare state!!!
Did you miss the bit where they were called crazy, or do you consider that a compliment?
Most of us 'liberals' who you think 'hate the country' tried to get get medical aid to the first responders of 9/11. That came up last week in the US House of Representatives and the conservative 'patriots' of the GOP blocked help. And Jim, you approved of it.
Being patritic is not about what you do with the Red, White and Blue. It's what you do about the people who live here. As Ron said, the GOP s**t on folks who are dying with lung problems because they cleaned up the site of the World Trade Center without proper gear because Guliani and others (all flag wavers) hid the truth about the health hazard.
I don't approve of desecrating the flag. Maybe because I'm a veteran. It's the wrong way to make a point. But what you to TO the people of this country is WAY more important than what you do to a piece of cloth.
No, you approve, these are your people doing this.
I said that I disapprove. How do you get these are my people?
Perhaps rather than directly contradict my posts, you can pply to HP for my password and you can log on and write my posts - You seem determined to put words in my mouth that I did no say - and grant to me opinions that are yours - not mine!
and the people YOU call evil and malicious morons who can't think (paraphrasing here, but I distinctly remember you commenting on them being "morons" and people who can't think) donate more money to charity than Blue states.
The issues aren't "liberal vs. Conservative" (similar to your statement about red white and blue), it's about hating tyranny vs asking for more.
Desecration of the US flag by an American citizen.. simply by virtue of his close proximity to it ....
I just remembered, California used to belong to the Mexicans.
No it didn't, it belonged to the Spaniards.
Nope. It belonged to the Spanish first, but after Mexico declared itself independent in 1821, its territory initially looked like this:
Wow! I did not know that about Mexico. How did US acquire that territory? War?
A combination of war and theft.
The quick and dirty version is this:
Mexico initially invited US settlers into Texas, hoping for help fighting the Indian tribes there. When US settlers started outnumbering Mexican settlers in the region, the Mexican government freaked out and prohibited any more US settlers, but the US settlers ignored them and kept coming anyway. When the Mexican government of the region tried to emancipate slaves in the region, the US (Anglo) settlers got mad and declared independence, resulting in the Texas Revolution and the state's eventual annexation by the United States.
This ticked off the Mexicans, leading to the Mexican-American War, which the Mexicans lost, ceding the New Mexico and California territories to the US in the process.
Nope, it belonged to the Spanish, we took it from them during the Spanish American War, then the Mexicans tried to get it back but we had the Mexican American War and took that back and stole even more!
One thing I find interesting and unfair is that I, as a New Zealander from the other end of the earth, could get a green card at about 1/10th the time and expense of an equivalent Mexican. I am not planning to do this but I did investigate it with a full time immigration Lawyer.
What are you talking about? The Spanish-American War occurred in 1898 and involved a dispute over Cuba.
There's this really cool thing called time. It exists to keep everything happening all at once, or in the wrong order.
People fuss about the flag, and I believe that those who treat it like a sacred object are off base.
"Actually following the law"...
My great grandfather, who's home nation was in part destroyed by the United States, came to this nation on the fast track because he had money and a business that Americans were very interested in.... He paid a donation into the medical school fund for the son of a certain American and my great grandfather and his family were quickly enabled to come into this country, although the promise of salary and pension that he was promised by these Americans back in Egypt were then denounced by the organization that promised said things..
There is no standardized version of immigration, and it takes away from the whole debate when people generalize by using "do like the rest of us" theme...
All of this is just a tangenting side show wasting time and distracting us from realizing what the crux of our quandries are...
First and foremost the American Bubble view has to disappear...We have to learn about the evolution of immigration policies in this nation and notice the inequality of treatment that has been and continues to be doled out...
We have to realize that whatever undocumented immigration is affecting us has been motivated and spurred by us.
We had Chinese "undocumented" problems, and still do...
But when immigrants are largely men, and social taboos/laws forbade/forbid the mixing of men and women along ethnic lines, lonely men far from home will try to create a life that most of us find "normal", "typical", and "humane."
Mexicans have been targets of abuse since Anglos (British or American) started rubbing elbows on the western frontier between the Sabine, then Nueces, and then Rio Grande.. They have always made for excellent cheap labor because they could easily be deported, whether or not they were American citizens, and regardless of what promised the United States made to them (Bracero Programs of both WWI and WWII).
Mexican Americans who fought and died in American wars were denied the G.I. Bill until the Civil Rights Era...it was not until the 1950's that Mexican-Americans were legally considered "intelligent" and "understanding/cognizant" enough to serve on juries, and they only found their pathway to some sort of "American Access" on the coattails of legislation designed to empower disenfranchised African-Americans...who's access to American immigration opportunities were dramatically cut after they could no longer be used as chattal......
So to has the Mexican and Mexican-American fared.....the illegal, unconstitutional repatriation of American citizens of Mexican descent during the 1930's and other hideous acts by the U.S. and state and local governments towards "undesirables" have left deep scars that I believe won't ever heal....for it is too easy for sleezy, scumbag politicians and their financiers to fan the flames of fanatics and those who hide their bigotry....whether it is based on religion, gender, nation of origin, language spoken, or socio-economic status.
It is easy to elect charlatans and destroyers when projecting animosity amongst and towards others works so well.......
BTW, I love when a previous poster talked about illegal immigrants taking jobs away from American citizens. What jobs are we talking about? The less than minimum wage jobs in restaurants and in agriculture that illegal immigrants overwhelmingly work in? If you wanted those shitty jobs, I'm sure the patriotic and unpunished small businesses that create a large demand for this labor pool would be happy to hire you.
The truth of the matter is that we want illegal immigrants because we recognize the value they provide to our economy. But we also want to scapegoat them and make them an internal enemy at the same time. Impose jail time on anyone caught hiring an illegal and you will destroy the demand overnight. But that would not be a political expedient solution. And it might work. We do not want it to work.
Our dirty little secret is that if we destroy the labor pool of for these jobs that no one else wants (at least not at what is being paid for them) then we will cause ourselves a serious self-inflicted injury. Expect prices for food in restaurants, especially California, Arizona and Texas, to substantially rise as restaurant owners go out of business or substantially raise prices due to the need to pay human wages. This is without getting into the loss of sales tax revenue.
An immigrant rights group with a sense of humor actually issued that challenge to American citizens: http://www.takeourjobs.org/
I have yet to hear of anyone taking them up on it.
I signed up. No, really, I did. But there's nothing on their list in Michigan, apparently.
HIspanics (illegal) out here where I live are earning $12, $15 and even $18 an hour. They demand better pay and have gotten it. With our country in the economic crisis it is in now, I bet there ARE Americans willing to take these jobs. They work hard all day but some of these guys are making over $1,000 a week - TAX FREE!!!
Moonchild, I am not sure what illegal immigrants you are talking about that are earning $18 an hour. Is it the people working in the kitchens of local restaurants, washing dishes, cooking food and taking out the trash? Is it the woman that comes through the office park at night to empty out your waste bin, vacuum the floor and clean the bathrooms? Are they the migrant farmworkers, are they commanding $18 an hour? You would find the link Kerryg posted to be informative. This group will help you get a job that would otherwise be filled by an illegal immigrant. Good luck to you. I am sorry for the Americans that are willing to do the jobs illegal immigrants are doing, under the conditions they are doing them and for what they are being paid. Despite the need for some people to blame the joblessness rate on the dark-skinned people coming across the border, that is not where the blame lies.
No they are not the dishwashers, maids, etc. Although I do know a hispanic housekeeper that makes $14 an hour (here illegally) and these other guys and one woman are in the landscape business. One guy makes $18 an hour, he just became legal and is now complaining about the taxes and does not want to have to pay them. A woman (his wife actually) makes $17. Another 2 men make $16 an hour and some women make $12 or $13. There are new people to the business also but they only make $9. Luckily for me I don't need a job.I don't blame them at all. I blame the government if Americans are pissed off because all they have to do is assign these people a "number" so they can work here and pay taxes. Then the other Americans who do it won't be so angry that they are carrying this weight alone. Having this closeness to the hispanic community I know A LOT about what they do and aside from not paying taxes, they lie about working since it can't be proven and get free health care and know exactly how to bilk the system, Still, again, this is the governments own damn fault. If Americans are pissed about it, they should bitch and moan to their congressmen/women. Not blame the hispanics.
Just so we don't forget in using the word "hispanic" loosely, we are not talking about the many U.S. citizens that are hispanic. These people (along with Indians, Italians and other people that tend to have darker skin) have become a class of second class citizens in the form of apartheid that Arizona has imposed. If you have dark skin, you are subject to having your walking papers demanded of you because a police officer has a reasonable suspicion that you are here illegally based on the color of your skin. There is nothing you can do to avoid this taint. I don't care how many fair-skinned "real americans" you procreate with, chances are that your descendants will never be white enough to join the ranks of the elect. I would never willingly spend time in Arizona or any place where someone could demand my walking papers if I'm standing around on the street because they suspect my status (and the status they suspect me of has itself been made a crime). I have no desire to play act what it would be like to live in a Jewish ghetto or day trip in apartheid Johannesburg. This law is a stain on our nation and I am ashamed of anyone that supports it. If we based our citizenship on merit, there are a great many that should be stripped of it. And, for the record, a great many U.S. citizens hate paying taxes and do everything they can to avoid it. Spend some time around people in the service industry and see how carefully your waitpersons and bartenders report their tips. And let's not get into how the rest of America plays with its tax deductions. Hating taxes is a national pastime.
All those who live in former Mexican territory and willing to move out, and give it back. Raise yer hands please. No one said a word about our National Anthem being desecrated by that guy. P-ewww! Moonchild is right on.
There was a certain Senator from Illinois who would later become President of the United States....
During this man's tenure in the senior house of the national legislature a war broke out...a war he called illegal and denounced...
Abraham Lincoln's speeches and other published statements against then President Polk and the aggression of American arms against Mexico are available online, and I encourage people to read whatever they can..
"The Welfare State"
It's privatized equivalent....it's "back to America's small government roots" is the master's plantation....Corporate responsibility was found in iron foundries and mines throughout the young nation........that's what it was, right?
And what was the role of "legal immigration" in all of this....and what of "illegal?" The reports generated by Mexican governors to the President of Mexico regarding the weight of undocumented American immigration into their country are recorded.....but rarely taught or spoken about.. Imagine what Mexico's status would be if they controlled San Francisco, Los Angeles, and the oil, copper, gold, silver, agriculture of the San Joaquin Valley...
Imagine if Americans had lived up to their hype, and stayed within their original borders, and respect the treaties that they arrange with others...
America's wealth was built by two transcontinental railroads that would not otherwise exist.....and it flows from there....
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