abortion is the destruction of cells that have full potential to be a human being.
I think the debate actually leads us into the question of "are we actually separate entities, or are we all just "life" and just one entity.
respectfully. Let's let each woman decide what she would like to do and we go about judging our own business.
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come on Kimberley, stop beating about the bush and sitting on the fence, what are you trying to infer here
My guess is that she can't uphold her argument intellectually, and so prefers to not face it.
As a practical matter, this argument does nothing to solve the problem. Assuming a pro-choice or a pro-life stance does nothing to solve the problem. Yes there is a problem. Depending on which side of the spectrum you fall on, the numbers are somewhere between almost 900,000 and 1.3 million abortions performed in the U.S. yearly. Anyway you slice it, that's a problem.
As long as those politically active on the issue continue to squeeze themselves further into their left or right corner, abortions will continue to be performed in obscenely large numbers.
The goal of both sides should be to decrease the number of abortions performed. There are dozens of practical reasons, for wanting the number decreased, that have nothing to do with whether or not abortion is murder. Education and outreach are the keys, but not the disgusting and obnoxious "education" the right's so called family planning centers inflict on any unsure pregnant woman they can get their hands on, and not the everything is just dandy, abortion without consequences garbage that groups like Planned Parenthood peddle.
You are right of course - it is the society that is the problem, a society largely directed by christians pushing their stone age views instead of addressing real life in an even handed manner to improve society generally.
There is certainly plenty of blame to go around. My personal and political preference is not to have laws influenced by any religion excepting where that religion directly influences the voting public as any faction might.
People i engage with on this subject tend to chastise me for not adopting a stance one way or the other. They presume that i do not already have a stance or that i am comfortably in the middle. I would argue that, while there are upwards of 850,000 women having abortions without effective pre-pregnancy counseling; options education; pre-abortion counseling; and post-abortion counseling, whether i believe they should be legal or not is irrelevant, particularly if a legal determination isn't pending.
I say, both sides should work toward the same goal, the logical goal, of less abortions, not through intimidation and fear (look at the numbers folks it's not working), but with the effective dissemination of educational information and outreach. At the same time, they should be reaching out to women who've had abortions with counseling opportunities. PP's responsiblity should not end with the referral. The right to lifers' response should not be to poor on the guilt after the fact (isn't Jesus all about forgiveness?). No matter where a woman stands on abortion, after having one there will be psychological stress that needs to be dealt with appropriately, some might say compassionately. It's an area both sides fail at miserably.
Get women the education and the help they need, get the numbers down, and then talk to me about the legality and morality.
Contraception is the way to go. Abortion should never be sued as a means of avoiding unwanted pregnancy. There are just too many products on the market to avoid it.
This is true and is a troubling trend of the time. Society has lost it's conscience and the will to discern that which is right and that which is wrong. Irresponsible behavior for a few moments of pleasure give no pause to people and yet they feel as a "victim" when they come up as expecting parents.
Regardless of when you feel life begins there is no accountability for personal actions. If you become pregnant take responsibility and either strive to make a proper family or place that child up for adoption so that the child may have a chance at a life which you cannot afford. None of us have the right to deny a child's life because of reckless behavior. It is among the pinnacles of a prideful heart that only looks at mirrors for priorities.
Yes I agree. Using abortion as contraception, shows nothing more than lack of responsibility. For your own actions. If a person chooses to have sex with no regard to the consequences, then chooses abortion to resolve the problem, it is reprehensible. Too bad others don't want to see that.
This would be true - maybe - if people behaved in an intelligent and responsible manner. Unfortunately morons, wasters, and children having more unwanted children only perpetuates the faults in society that are one place where we might find some agreement.
Abortion is not "murder" under the law. Those who call it murder are misusing the language.
the "law" is not always right or moral
Abortion is murder according to God's law. Prostitution is legal in some states, but I am sure you would not approve, if your daughters did it.
My point is, the fact that it is legal does not make it right. In eternity we have to answer to God, not the Law!
Abortion-murder or contraception?
The ignorance that is required for someone to use abortion as a contraception stems from pure stupidity.
Abortion is a medical procedure and without it, the right to choice is voided.
The truth be known- it is as Evan said- the destruction of cells that would end in the creation of a human life. There is no dispute.
But, ask yourself this- Would you rather destroy one life or two?
how would not getting an abortion destroy any lives?
If you cannot figure that out, then have your local adoption center explain it to you or have an adopted child from some screwed up foster home explain it to you.
Or have some parent who wishes they never had kids explain it to you.
But, don't think for a second, everything would be hunky dory if a woman was FORCED to carry full term.
Not only is two lives ruined, but countless others get destroyed in the process. And, if you cannot see that, then you need to get out more.
Yes well I have known a couple of girls who did have abortions, and it desroyed their lives. They found it hard to live with themselves. One is struggling, while the other one is dead. She committed suicide because of the deep depression she went in to.
So abortion destroyed two lives. That I personally know.
That wasn't the point.
Someone gets an abortion and finds themselves depressed and commits suicide from it, then they weren't too bright to begin with and probably shouldn't have been making life altering decisions, such as getting an abortion. Then again, I don't know this person.
As for the second one, I'm sure you haven't let her live it down, simple enough, for her to be depressed. I can see you doing it.
Either way, you missed the point.
No I haven't missed the point. I'm just saying there are a dozen different scenarios where we could say lives are ruined either way you look at it. However, to give a baby a chance, by giving it up for adoption would at least give that baby a chance. And most if not all babies go to good homes, not foster care. At least here in America. This list of parents wanting newborn babies is so long, that none of them should have to be in foster care.
That's where rights come into effect though. And, this is where you and I will separate.
You believe rights of life are "god" given. And, I don't. I understand rights as bestowed because of life(birth) is achieved.
This leads to what AP said about it earlier, possibly in another thread, about the value placed on life. It is obvious the value of one life super-cedes that of another.
Yes, science has deemed that life begins at conception, however, the Law does not. Changing the Law, rules out abortions, which has adverse consequences religious people refuse to consider. Their narrow view on the life of the child is all they pay attention to and not the consequences of outlawing abortions out-right.
When you outlaw abortions, then you infringe upon the right of the woman. You rip away their ability to control their own life. Yes, if responsible, then they are not likely to get pregnant, but even accidents happen, where conception takes place even with protective measures taken.
If no abortions were allowed in the world, the population explosion would be so huge, that there would be no place to put everyone and that cannot be allowed to happen. Over-population is already happening in certain areas. A prime example, look at how many live in other Countries and the amount of land will eventually run out. That means what? Larger buildings sky high to house them or they begin to die because a lack of resources.
When you look at the topic, don't just look at ONE child, look at the rest of the world and the people in it.
The waiting list for white babies is long.
And I know several catholic girls who were forced to carry their unwanted child and it has ruined their lives and made them embittered at the hard life this consigned them to by missing University and getting a good job, also leaving them with only second rate partners because they had a child attached.
This is no argument either way.
"The ignorance that is required for someone to use abortion as a contraception stems from pure stupidity."
Which is it ignorance or stupidity?
"But, ask yourself this- Would you rather destroy one life or two?"
There is another choice that doesn't require destroying any life.
Cells? It is a few cells the day after conception, and double that amount the day after, and double again the day after...by the time the woman has missed a period it is more than a few cells.
The fetus at this stage has laid down the foundations of life. All the internal organs have been formed, not matured, but formed. It is almost a baby in miniature.
Look at this hub - an no this is not shamelss self-promotion - I want you to look at the pictures of the 6 week old fetus(at this stage the woman is 2 weeks late with her period) and tell me its just a few cells.
With all due respect to the feelings of those who take an emotional view of this topic.
Do we place too much value on individual human life anyway. Does it matter if some people die 'unnecessarily' would it matter if useless peoples in society, maybe career couch potatos for example, were to be killed off for the good of the whole. Whilst this is something I would not advocate for many compelling reasons it does make a question. A baby has no real value to anyone except its parents etc until it starts to interact with society, starts to think independantly. We already do not give a child many rights, these are held by the parents, when a baby is murdered the killer is usually dealt with more leniently than if they killed a grown person, I guess because a baby has less 'value' ?
I think the balance of value of a human life has tilted (for some people) too far, maybe. There is also a logical argument alongside the emotional argument I think ?
We hold these truths to be SELF EVIDENT, that ALL MEN are created equal, and are endowed by their creator with certain INALIENABLE rights, that among those rights are LIFE, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
I'm sorry, there is no higher right than to life. None. Especially NOT some mythical "public good".
If you want to know why terrorism is rampant in the world, why murder, mayhem, cruelty and repression are rampant in the world, why there is so much in terms of evil going on... Just read t he above writer and it is all clear. The "intelligentsia" have convinced themselves that material goods and things for "collecitve" distribution are more important than life itself. The exact same rationale that has brought every monstrous evil in the world.
What you hold is your own fear of death. It is not a truth it is an opinion.
And so far it is religion itself that has brought about most of the monstrous evil in the world. The sooner you become a myth along with the myth of your god the better for mankind.
That is just plain amazing. Well, I take it back. It's not. The visceral hatred of disagreement exhibited by those who consider themselves to be intellectuals, up to and including the devaluation of their lives, is lost even to themselves. They believe in their own superiority so highly, that they place themselves in a position of worthiness, even to judge another's ability to live.
And in all that, fail to grasp why ordinary people see them as unworthy of respect.
Contraception is the prevention of pregnancy. Pregnancy occurs when egg and sperm come together to form a new life. Murder is the act of ending another's life. Abortion is the act of terminating a pregnancy. Therefore abortion is not contraception, and it is murder by definition.
You're a bit extreme dear. Try to lighten up and grasp a world-view, not just definitions.
That is my non-emotional stance. I understand that there is argument of definition. Those are my meanings of each word. This is a very controversial subject. If you want my opinion on abortion I see it as being irresponsible for your actions. I think people shouldn't use it as a way out from their mistakes and anyone who has sex should understand the risks of pregnancy.Every time I have sex, no matter how much protection I use, I think 'there is a chance I can get pregnant' and ask myself 'am I willing to accept that responsibility if it occurs?'. I also believe that in the case of rape, stds, and life threatening circumstances that abortion is okay. It is still murder by my definition but I see it more justified. Just like when you kill a home invader its called justified murder. So my question on abortion is "when do you see abortion as justified murder?".
I don't see it as murder. I see it as giving woman a choice.
Women make the choice of having sex...it's not even about using protection. Everyone knows sex can result in pregnancy so they should be prepared in case it does happen and not just say "oops I fucked up". People need to learn to accept their mistakes and take responsibility for them. It's a major problem in our society not just with abortion but with lawsuits and welfare, people want an easy way out. I'm not saying it's always wrong but as children we were taught to take responsibility for our actions and some people don't understand that this is a huge problem. Also since abortion is legal I find it very wrong that men don't have a choice to keep the baby and a woman can just go get one without the father's opinion. What if the father wants the child. I understand it's the woman's body but a segregate mother can be put in place.
Yes, having sex is a choice. Glad we got that out of the way.
Prepared? Protective measures are not 100% fool proof.
More people do take full responsibility versus those who don't or are you neglecting to notice that.
Yes, there are plenty of ignorant people in the world, but look at the leaders who are supposedly leading by example? Or the role models society has?
You are calling it murder, yet you're not saying it's always wrong? Make up your mind would you.
Why? Does a woman have to scream rape first? Then, action has to be taken on the consequences of the rape charge.
You are joking right? Most men are incapable of taking care of themselves without a woman's help, much less take care of child.
It could be, providing two grown adults make that decision. But, not likely to happen.
I understand all your points, I have looked at both sides of the spectrum. People know that contraceptives are not 100% effective and that was my point on people knowing the possibility even if it is slight and taking responsibility. Yes, through my thoughts a woman should report rape to abort the baby, woman should ALWAYS report rape regardless, it is very important. As for men not being able to care for a child is stereotyping. There are many single fathers out there. Men can take care of themselves, just as woman can. There are times when a man can't, but there are also times when woman can't. All these things go back to responsibility. You don't have to agree with how I see the world, just take the time to consider and understand my point of view. I have done so with your thought it's only considerate to do so.
I have considered your side of the argument. And, I've also seen the other side of the argument. Hence, my position where the rights of the woman is all that matters.
Men, in most case, and no it's not stereotypical, cannot take care of themselves. And, Yes, woman are actually more responsible than men. This is proven factual.
For the longest time, woman have always had to be more responsible than men, because more responsibility has been placed or pressured upon them.
Yes, there are a lot of single fathers out there, but again, your argument is narrowed down to a lessor of which is actually happening.
And, yes, I don't have to get you to agree or even agree to disagree. The whole point of the abortion argument is futile to begin with, because as I have already said earlier- it should even be a topic for discussion in the first place.
Well I agree, this is an opinionated issue and it could never be resolved.
That is the sole reason why others continue to make it a public outcry...to control what others are allowed to do.
The topic itself is a private matter, and should not be subjected to what other people think or say.
Edit: If you're interested..I wrote a hub on it.
they who don't want to face the truth make up doctrine to suit their needs.
If you could you'd prob make a suicide clinic too?
Why is it that the very people who advocate less government intervention in people's lives in other areas want government to intervene in people's private lives when it comes to famil planning? A bit hypocritical, dontcha think?
If you believe abortion is murder, by all means, don't have one!
And yes, it would be lovely if every girl/woman who finds herself pregnant and unable to parent her baby would put the baby up for adoption. Doesn't seem to work that way, tho.
That's why our foster care system is bursting at the seams and why Child Protective Services (CPS) caseloads are beyond stretched. That's the reality.
Tell me, who is advocating governmental involvement in family planning, besides the left?
Abortion is justified when the woman facing an accidental pregnancy chooses to terminate the pregnancy. No "justification" required, as the action is legal.
just because it is legal doesn't make it right.
Justified murder is legal...that was my point...
If it is legal then it is not murder.
and I can't help but correct your English as I am an English teacher - you meant surrogate not segregate I think? and then even an adoptive parent is not surrogate, that is when another woman carries your child.
Sorry to be pedantic
In our court systems we call abortion, and killing another to defend yourself "justifiable murder" it is a legal form of killing another.
Yes I meant surrogate, and I did mean when another woman carries your child but for the father not for another woman.
Woman's rights? Isn't it murder regardless of who's civil rights are involved? She used her rights when she opened her legs,didn't she?
And if she was raped, I'm sure she was asking for it.
True. She was probably wearing a mini skirt, a low cut blouse and lots of makeup.
To Ron Montgomery and Ralph Deeds: With all due respect to you both, not everyone who has been raped, have asked for it and whether the women were dressed provocatively or not, men should not judge them by their appearance and just go raping them. This is a very "delicate" subject and it needs to be handled the same way.
To answer the question: Abortion-murder or contraception? I do agree with some of the replies here that there are other alternatives not to have an abortion. Yes, it is true that sometimes, it seems better to not carry the baby the full-term if the woman is not willing to do so or regrets it for the rest of their pregnancy, but they can always put the baby up for adoption, which I think, is better than the other option-of course, this is just my opinion.
Taking religion out of the picture, isn't it life when sperm meets egg?That's biology. Simple stuff.
How many abortions have been performed world wide?
If everyone one of those aborted children had been allowed to grow up and have however average number of children that exists in that country, what would the world population be today?
What effects would that have had on other statistics such as, starvation, homeless, unemployment etc ?
In summation... I think that if a woman chooses to have an abortion? that is between her and her God if she has one and/or
her own conscience. As is any thing else that she does whether I approve or disapprove.
If she asks for my help or opinion THEN that is a different matter.
If you get my help you are obliged to HEAR my advice. Whether you take it or not us up to you.
Is abortion murder ? That would be between me and my God IF and when that situation comes into my household.
Until then ?????????????? ??????
Murder is a legal term that doesn't include abortion.
It's the systematic removal of principle laws hidden behind the concept of civil rights. Right or wrong has been replaced with political correctness.
So u int askin a kwestion - u am sezin wot god sed. TKsensei?
Sure - we dune take the right srious from a igrenunt wot got no edumakashun innit.
Styill - another fogt ansures.
Sorry -how many unwanted kids u adopted agin? Sock puppet Smith dun adopted no kids innit.
Shouldn't this be more of a responsibility issue and less of a religious standpoint?
Contraception - proactive thinking in preventing unwanted pregnancies.
Abortion - after thought of not being proactive and being irresponsible for one's own actions. An easy way out.
Under certain cirumstances, such as gang rape, rape, incest, I can understand the need for abortion. Whereas, when one does not take the time or forethought to prevent a pregancy that one does not want, then the persons involved are completely irresponsible and are given the opportunity to negate their responsibility of their actions. On the same note, some people are not fit to be parents.
Even when contraception is used 100% of the time (and used correctly), accidents can happen. Why is it "proactive" to use contraception to prevent pregnancy when you're not prepared for it, but "irresponsible" to have an abortion if the contraception fails despite your best efforts? Half of all women getting abortions report birth control use during the month they became pregnant.
Though there are women who use abortion as their primary form of birth control, they are much rarer than you'd think. A woman of normal fertility who used abortion as her only form of birth control would be experiencing two or three unplanned pregnancies per year. Abortion rates simply are not high enough to support the belief that it's commonly used as a first, not a last, resort by women.
No one is arguing that abortion is a good idea.
Making abortion illegal is a WORSE idea. We tried prohibition in the 20s and repealed it became obvious the solution of prohibition was worse than the problem of drinking.
Before abortion was a safe legal procedure, women killed themselves in various ways attempting to self-abort. Is that what you want?
The issue is not whether abortion early in the pregnancy is a good idea or a bad idea. The question is WHO DECIDES. It's either the govenment or the woman. I think it should be the woman.
Exactly. Only the most hardcore child-free types actually support abortions and want more of them.
Pro-choice people simply recognize that making abortions illegal does very little to prevent them. Western Europe, with some of the most liberal abortion laws in the world, has the lowest rate of abortions in the world. North America, which also has relatively liberal abortion laws, also has some of the lowest rates in the world. Africa and Latin America, where abortion is mostly illegal, have rates of abortion anywhere from 50-200% higher than the US and Canada.
Additionally, the rate of maternal mortality caused by botched abortion is 3,000% higher in countries where abortion is illegal than countries where it is legal. In other words, people campaigning to outlaw abortion are effectively campaigning to end more lives, because not only do abortion rates tend to rise in countries where abortions are illegal, they are also far more likely to kill both mother and fetus.
Nobody wants abortions to happen, but improving access to comprehensive sex education and reliable contraception will do far more to reduce the rate of abortions than making them illegal.
Abortion is murder according to God,sure. Is it not murder according to biology?
Odd that this turns into religion,when there are many other concepts here. I think it's inappropriate from the viewpoint of a helpless embreyo, I don't need God for that one.
'many other concepts'... Spoken like a lawyer for the defense trying to confuse the jury in a loosing trial. There's ONE concept if we are talking about the earliest stages of pregnancy when almost all abortions occur.
Does the woman own her body or does the state own her body?
No need for confusion. It is really simple. Does abortion terminate life? That is it. Those other concepts? Try responsibility,accountability or logic.
Even your 'simple' is obscure and misleading - if I step on an ant I terminate a 'life'.
" Does abortion terminate life? " JR asks. Well answer me this, Junior.
Does masturbation terminate life? All those sperm with the POTENTIAL for life just wasted.. Ahhh you say without the fertilization of the egg, it's not life. I know a woman who miscarried in the second month. There was no funeral. Why? Because no religion or society considers a natural abortion that early a death. But if it's life, as you think, then it was a death. No death certificate, No funeral. Nothing.
I don't consider cracking an egg into a bowl of flour to be a cake. There's a lot more that has to go into it. I respect your right to call it a cake and believe it's a cake, but don't demand that I share that opinion. The SCOTUS has decided - it's not a cake until it's 'viable'.
Again, try minding your own business and stay out of other people's life. How is that?
Just a friendly forum,people! I don't get an opinion,but you do? I enjoy the forum format,I might just learn something from you all. There's no need to get angry!
Cags, I don't involve myself in other people's affairs. This here is a FORUM.It's for civilized people to discuss issues and their opinion. Yes, other people have opinions. It isn't real. Relax. I don't get nasty when you voice your opinion.
Doug, you make an excellent point with masterbation. I saw another cunning reply about an ant. I just can't get by a death created in a womb. That seems backwards to me. Maybe you guys have it all figured out. Could you yes or no a question,though? Is abortion murder?Yes or no,now people.
Didn't say you don't get to voice your opinion. But, it's best to let you know that your opinion is irrelevant, because it only deals with your life.
My biggest point in this thread is that "abortion" the topic itself needs to go away and never be brought up again. The only reason it's brought up is because (a) religious folk don't know how to mind their own business and stay out of other people's life, and (b) too many advocate groups trying to build separation between citizens.
Thus, the topic is a private matter and not one that people should really be discussing. However, since abortion is legal and that is the Law which ALL citizens live by, including religious, then the subject is moot to begin with.
You forgot (c) it makes for an interesting forum.
Discussion of issues is never IRRELEVANT all the time there are people who can't catch up there is a danger of us getting dragged back into their ancient world, but with modern weapons.
The meaning of life, defining life, the middle ground of opinion - are all relevant.
But he does bang on without any new stuff so boring may be relelvant but never irrelevant
I think if a person is having an abortion it should be manditory for them to get their tubes tied during the oppertaion.
by brittvan22 6 years ago
There has been rowe v. wade, etc. Is abortion clear cut murder or do you think there are special cases and exceptions?
by Grace Marguerite Williams 4 years ago
liberalization and the broadening of women's reprodutive freedoms, especially in terms of a woman's right to choose and the issue of contraception? What makes some conservative men view a woman's greater reproductive freedom and/or choice is an affront to "morality" and "family...
by Grace Marguerite Williams 5 years ago
NEVER, EVER understand about a woman's unmitigated right to choose & control her reproductive destiny?
by dingdondingdon 7 years ago
I have a genuine question for the pro-lifers who believe abortion is murder.What about miscarriages?If we're defining a fetus as a life, and defining terminating that fetus with being the same as killing you or killing me or killing any other person on the street, then what does that make...
by JRs 4 years ago
Is abortion about women’s right or is it about the right to life?I get so mixed up in that debate, it would seem that the right to life outweighs any right of personal choice, but many see it much different. What is your opinion about abortion? What supersedes what? Do men have a right to a...
by theirishobserver. 8 years ago
THE SAD FACTS:1 out of every 67 deaths in the WORLD is an American abortion.1 out every 4 deaths in America is an American abortion.Half of the deaths in the world are from abortions.Abortion is the leading cause of death in the world. It kills as many people as ALL of the other causes of...
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