What a SHOCK! The major CA health insurers have been fined for delayed and underpaid claims to physicians and hospitals. If it's happening here -- and it is -- it's happening elsewhere in the US, too. Who does this practice help? Duh. The longer insurers keep that cash in their pocket the more they earn on it.
Who is in a better position to haggle on payment -- insurers or their care-giving payees?
How big is the problem? See below.
And people are fighting against a single payer system and/or more oversight of this industry why? Do you people want our doctors to go out of business????
State auditors estimate that one in every five claims, on average, were either late or underpaid.
http://www.sacbee.com/2010/11/29/321928 … z16i5sJO7O
This is an interesting topic, Insurers not paying or late in paying claims reminds me of another entity that does the same thing.
The United States Government.
Doctors who take on medicare patients have been short changed for many,many years by the government, so much in fact that many of them are not accepting medicare patients. The single payer system you want would be the very same entity and would disallow more claims than it would pay, this is exactly what the Obama administration wants.
The answer is to carry Major medical with high deductibles and pay out of pocket for all the visits to the Dr.
Wont happen because too many think free health care is a right, I guess the Dr and his employees are supposed to work for free.
Thank God that a majority of voters have slammed the door shut on Obama and his nefarious schemes.
Yes I have VA benefits, I earned those benefits by serving not because I felt entitled and demanded them.
And if you are trying to make a comparison between a single payer system and VA health benefits don't bother.
"Yes I have VA benefits, I earned those benefits by serving not because I felt entitled and demanded them."
I pay taxes. Why shouldn't I get something out of my money that actually benefits my family, instead of another $2 billion dollar bomber that can't fly in the rain?
"And if you are trying to make a comparison between a single payer system and VA health benefits don't bother."
I am merely pointing out that as somebody who receives government-paid health care yourself, you are not the most qualified to decide what "the answer" is for those of us who don't.
"I pay taxes. Why shouldn't I get something out of my money that actually benefits my family, instead of another $2 billion dollar bomber that can't fly in the rain?"
You get much more than that.
"I am merely pointing out that as somebody who receives government-paid health care yourself, you are not the most qualified to decide what "the answer" is for those of us who don't."
I don't receive government paid health care, I am entitled but I don't use those benefits because quite frankly those doctors scare me.
I pay for my health insurance through my employer.
If you don't have insurance and you don't pay for care out of your own pocket then don't expect others to pay your way.
I don't. I think they are the problem. The insurance lobby has created BAD legislation regarding the regulation of health insurance. Insurance Companies are simply a middle man running up the cost of a neccessity.
Insurance companies aren't the middle man. They are the profit takers! Everything they do is designed to make a profit. As long as health care remains a profit-based industry in this country, the inequities will continue. Money is king!
I was able to buy a sandwich the other day... But those evil bastards at Jimmy John's were ONLY interested in TAKING my MONEY and making a PROFIT!!
Those sick sacks of crap TOOK my money and MADE PROFITS!!
I HATE THEM SOOO MUCH!!! I CURSE THEM TO HELL!!!
... but the sandwich was pretty good!
The difference is, Jimmy John's can't take your money and not give you a sandwich. Until Obamacare passed, insurance companies legally could. Rescission, look it up.
You mean they didn't provide quality service and a delicious product just so you could enjoy your meal???
You mean to tell me they satisfied your taste buds just so they could make a profit?!
PROFIT COMING FROM YOUR WALLET?!?!
JUST BECAUSE YOU WERE HUNGRY AND WANTED TO EAT SOMETHING???!!!!11
Don't you see??? Those pigs were exploiting your hunger just so they could get even richer!
You sidetrack and steal the debate. I thought the topic was health care...
If health care continues to be profit motivated in this country, people will continue to die at the hands of health insurers and hospitals that must be concerned with their bottom line. If you have a family member that falls victim (I do not wish that upon you or anyone else)to a serious disease, you will understand. I have worked in this field for over 30 years and I have seen the greed up close and in person. Yes, everyone needs to make a living and I have made quite a good living in my chosen field, but somewhere along the way, I discovered that the discussion of ethics surrounding the denial of medical care becomes blurred when profit becomes a part of the discussion. Profits in any other corporate model are the driving factor and should be, but should have no place in the health care discussion.
Have you ever called a parent telling them that there will be no life-saving transplant for their child because their share of cost can not be paid monthly? I know that you haven't made those calls. I have and very soon afterwards left that position, taking a job that did not require utilization management, coupled with financial overview.
Did you ever have to make the call to a spouse and try to explain why their husband would not be receiving the $800.00 per dose med he needed (because the insurance company knew the patient was going to die anyway-their denial would hasten his death by 2 or 3 months)? I refused to make that call. 2 or 3 additional months may make little difference to you, but it made every bit of difference to this man's family. I know that because his daughter was my childhood friend. I later told the family why the decision was made. The decision was one the insurance company regretted when the family filed and won a lawsuit.
Stop and think before you start talking about profit being part of all business decisions. Profit should NOT be part of the discussion in the health care field. The health care industry should not be an industry. Plain and simple.
And you dare to compare a human life to a sandwich? Clearly, it is not your life.
By the way, the beautiful young woman standing with you in your photo--think about what might happen to her if she gets extremely ill. You will not compare her life to a sandwich, will you?
Agreed, CJ Wright.
Without the for-profit insurance and pharmaceuticals companies, health care would be a lot more affordable.
Dare I even mention the word "free" like in other civilized countries?
I find it suspicious and creepy that pharmaceutical companies advertise on TV.....
and I find it disturbing to listen to pharmaceutical commercials during the part where they list the side effects. have you ever noticed that the people listing the side effects are always smiling and using a soothing voice and that the music is always relaxing. they usually show scenes of idyllic days on the beach or at the park as well. its a form of brainwashing and it kills me.
I agree. ED, Low T, RA. Drug companies spend millions advertising their patented drugs for which equally effective, much cheaper generics are available.
We have somehow allowed this country to be a haven for Robber Barons! EVERYTHING is for profit...even the basic necessities of life! THAT is crazy. What "civilized" country doesn't care if its citizens....KIDS.....die in the street?
Where is it written in the Constitution..."Ye shall put the making and hoarding of money above all else, and have free-reign to do it?"
Who made Capitalism our policy?
ugh. Capitalism isn't evil.
For proof of this: Which country would you rather be poor in? China, or the US? North Korea or South Korea? Canada or Brazil?
I already know what your answers are, and I can tell you that the pattern you chose has a direct correlation between Free-Markets - the more free the market of the country, the more you want to live there.
might I add...
NOOOOOOO!!!! NOT PROFITS!!!! AAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!
OF COURSE, YOU would NEVER work for a profit, would you? You're a heavenly saint!
Give me a break - Profits make the world turn because there's no reason to do anything unless you will be rewarded in some way.
What job would you rather have if you were paid $10/hr for each? Garbage collector or Waitress/Waiter? What if you were offered $30/hour for Garbage pick up but only $4 for Waitressing?
Do you see how your answers changed? -- that's how profits work. Someone wants a job done MORE than they want the money it takes to get someone to do it.
The market is good at regulating itself. Capitalism works because it allows the consumer to decide the value of goods and services.
However, capitalism without constraint leads to imperialism. A society in which a few corporations would run monopolies on all goods and services. So, I believe that some government regulation is required.
Unless you like lead in you paint. lol
why would you buy paint with lead in it if you didn't want to?
Monopolies can't exist without governments enforcing them. If there was one paint company that was making nothing but lead-paint AND they were charging $5,000 per can ... what would stop you from either a) simply not using the paint, or b) starting your own competing company that would reap massive profits due to that companies negligence?
Competition counters greed, and both are one in the same.
The issue that you tend to ignore is that the government isn't enforcing monopolies because it's inherently evil and hates free trade, it's enforcing monopolies because the monopolies have become the government.
So you want to counter problems created by government regulation with... MORE REGULATION?
It's a matter of PREVENTION, NOT more INTERVENTION! The government creates the problem, and then pitches the idea for more oversight and control to fix it -- meanwhile, this is what causes the problems in the first place!
Same old story in Washington!
"Hmmm, government distortions in the market have allowed monopolies to turn profit and crush competition despite poor performance. Maybe what we need is... more government!"
Who said anything about more regulations? The problem is corporations buying influence in Washington, so my first prescription would entail campaign finance reform and trying to figure out some way to combat the "revolving door."
I thought the point you were making was that political entanglement with big corporations is what causes monopolization of the market, so we need more regulation to combat this.
Sorry if I missed the point! ... derf derf haha
Kerry, we actually agree with at least one part of your post: "The problem is corporations buying influence in Washington"
Although, i would start earlier - the real problem is the fact that Washington is dishing out the money to begin with. No company would ask for money if the government stopped handing it out - lobbyists cost money, and if they aren't a profitable investment, they'd stop being hired.
As you know, I oppose subsidies, corporate welfare, and the military-industrial complex. We agree about quite a bit, really; we just tend to approach things from exactly opposite angles.
If there are profits involved, then we are all motivated to provide and contribute --
This is ESPECIALLY true for the necessities of life, because there will always be a demand for these essential goods and services; so there will always be profits to be made from these goods and services; so there will always be incentive to provide these goods and services.
With competition, there will be incentive to provide them at a low-cost, quality rate.
Thank God we have a for profit country! How many drugs have been created and tested before administration to humans because the drug companies could reinvest their money into research. If they did not have that money they wouldn't be creating the medicines that are saving our lives now.
The car companies wouldn't be able to create safer and better modes of transport without their profits also. Who would be paying for the air bag systems or testing them before production if the car companies couldn't do it for profit.
Thank God there is FOR PROFIT COMPANIES because YOU would not have a job right now either. Most companies would go automated so that the owner could take in all the money for himself. People would be seen as eating away and a cost to the bottom line. You would most likely not even be employed right now. Each American would have to have their own business to make money and even then "don't make it where you make too much money" or it will be seen as injustice to us all.
You say you are pulling down $50,000 at your company? Well there is a majority of people only making $43,000 a year. The federal government better take the $7,000 extra because you are making too much.
Is that how you want to see America now. Socialism is the New America for some. Do you watch Football or Basketball? Do you choose a team to win? You are no Socialist!
Do you have children? Do they compete in anything? Well I hope you do not cheer only them on and expect them to win. That would be like a "for profit" and not hoping for all to win. Everyone should finish at the same time.
Do your children receive A's and B's? Well, they should share those with the kids getting F's.
At work, if you work! Are you working your hardest? Getting those 3-4% raises each year? Well, share that raise with the people that are not. In fact give your raise away to the people making less than you and NOT receiving a raise this year.
I bet you will not change anything above I stated. You are two faced then. You have two cars in your family? Give one away to a inner city family with none and do not buy a replacement though! Otherwise you must give that one away too.
If you can do all of that than tell me and all the others we need to do our part. But we live in a competition word. If we do compete and always lose than we go on and learn something new. If we do not, than it is their choice to live in shame. It is not my job to pick up the lazy person and give my stuff away to them.
However, many medicines and techniques have been created by those in countries with socialized medicine, moat advances come from university hospitals.
and those hospitals *gasp* EXIST BECAUSE OF PROFITS!!!
BUT WAIT! Health care is a RIGHT -- not a service -- LOL!!
Why are doctors making money off me?! You mean they want to spend years of hard work and dedication to the study of medicine just so they can MAKE MONEY??!!
UGH! PIGHEADED, CAPITALIST, PROFITEERS!
Money is power. Power usually carries with it the pretense of doing good for many. However, money is the most sought after commodity on the planet and most are greedy for it. Hospitals, which should be far more philanthropic are controlled by moneymongers. It's all circular. And when you get a fist full of book learnin' theory and then get in the workforce, a lot of money changes hands and you see how the world really runs.
It ain't pretty.
money is power. So is a gun
But when I trade money for a gun, what happens to the power balance?
1) Both parties lost power, thus the sum power of the group goes down
2) One party gained more power than the other, and thus the sum power stayed equal?
3) Both parties agreed to the trade, and thus benefited from it. Thus the gun was more powerful to the buyer, and the money was more powerful to the seller, and thus both parties' sum of power increased?
Just something to stew on.
Read this, and see if these are "lazy people".
"On Christmas, their cushion will vanish"
By Robert Gavin and Megan Woolhouse
Globe Staff / December 1, 2010
They lost their jobs due to the For-Profit economy. The one where a $3 million a year hedge-fund manager pay less taxes than a $65,000 a year teacher.
It's an economy geared towards helping the rich, and we lesser incomes are subsidizing it!
That's what your 'for profit" economy does.
Who do you think pays for that drug company research? Public Universities! Who pays for those? We do! Who makes the profits.....who dies if they can't afford the drugs.....
Dana Rorbacher railing on the House floor about Long Beach CA citizens paying for dock renovations so the corporate companies can have an easier time re-locating their jobs overseas!
Tax breaks for moving jobs overseas! Corporations paying 0 taxes!
Give me a break...they want to live here free and make money free and don't care who lives or dies....fellow citizens who are helping them get rich!
Time they pay back what has been GIVEN to them by our policies.
Robber Barons. Banks. Gloablcorps. Give it back. CEO's making 5 mil on our dime? Oh hells no.
WAY too top-heavy!
I bet you that when you saw "Make money writing on hubpages", you said "hm... maybe i'll give this a shot!". And I bet that if you didn't see that, you wouldn't have cared about hubpages at all.
Also, your entire argument shows complete ignorance of economics. Why do people lose jobs? Because their work isn't worth the money that they were paid and because they refused to work for less money than they were making. If these people really cared about keeping their jobs they would ask to keep working for the company, but for reduced pay. I feel no sympathy for them - they had their chance.
"But what about minimum wage!! They deserve a decent wage!!" - no. They deserve to earn whatever they agree upon working for with their employer. Minimum wage isn't a "safety net", it's a hurdle that people have to jump over to get a job! The job you get HAS to be worth at LEAST $7.50 (or whatever the number is) in order to even hope to work. This is why jobs are fleeing to other countries, or turning into computerized jobs -- answering phones just isn't worth 7 dollars to a company; flipping a burger patty isn't worth 7 bucks an hour to McD's (that's why illegals are "taking the jobs" -- they don't need to abide by the laws because they're already illegal).
My argument is flawless and consistent. Sorry to burst your bubble.
Here we go! Someone who can tell it right:
Robert Creamer Political organizer, strategist and author
Posted: December 1, 2010 08:39 AM
The Crowd That Had the Party Should Pick Up the Tab
"You hear a lot these days about how there has to be "shared sacrifice" to revive the economy and get the federal deficit under control.
The fact is that for the last two decades the middle class in America has already done plenty of sacrificing. Now it's time for the gang who had the big economic party -- and who caused the economic calamity -- to pay the bill.
The middle class and the poor should not be asked for "more sacrifice" to close the budget deficit. It can be closed without making the middle class and poor pick up the tab.
And it's time the wealthy Americans begin once again to pay their proportionate share of taxes. At least they ought to pay the pre-Bush-tax-cut rates of the 1990s -- which, we should remember, was the most prosperous period in human history."
Thank you thank you THANK YOU!!!
NO ONE should be asked to sacrifice!!!
The "sacrifice" you're talking about ISN"T sacrifice - it's THEFT. The government says "we need more sacrifice" -- but when was the last time that budgets were cut? When was the last time we actually withdrew from a foreign country that we were no longer at war with?
No - the "sacrifice" you talk about is theft. The government officials have VERY VALUABLE positions in that they are allowed to give people cushy jobs (the dept. of H.Land security employs HOW MANY people with full health insurance?!), and they get quite a bit as a reward for these appointments. Now the question becomes "how do they pay for these appointments?" - through tax payer "sacrifice". They raise taxes (or print money out of thin air, thus lowering the value of money), and then pay for the appointments so that they can get something in return.
Taxes are theft, and these "Sacrifices" aren't sacrifices, they are victims of theft.
I disagree. Greed is NOT good. Period.
You can move to Dubai and live tax free, get waited on, treated like a King. What is that called? I don't know, but here, we believe in fairness and equity. Here, we pay taxes--just the way it is.
Poor and middle class have been making up for what the uber rich don't pay. Income distribution? Yeah---to the top!
And here's from a Huffpo blogger:
"Lost in the tax "debate" is that lower and middle even though their federal income taxes may be at a lower rate, they tend to make up more of the tax burden with the more regressive sales, property, local taxes, user fees, licensing etc
We (formerly) middle classers have watched our take home pay stagnate, at the same time costs for basic necessitites like food, fuel, medical, education, utilities and so forth continue to rise
Mr Creamer is correct Wall street had a big party, and stuck the middle class with the tab - in the form of lost home values, stagnant, declining wages, dwindling savings, increased debt, lost jobs and so forth
Funny how all these free marketeers on wall street were the first in line for a handout
Socialism for the rich, your on your own for the rest of us. Privatize the profits, socialize the risks so so wrong on so many levels."
Just ask Michelle Bachmann, who took $250,000 for her FAMILY farm....she is deserving of that tax money, but a man of 52 yrs old who was outsourced from his job is not? Shame on you!
if greed isn't good - then please stop charging money for your labor.
until you do that, you're living hypocritical. You are making a profit on your labor (otherwise, why the hell would you work? If you weren't making a profit, you would be "breaking even" and could never afford one single luxury item ever).
I have thus completely disproved your entire argument, and it took me less than one minute.
Greed is not "charging money". Greed is taking more than you could possibly ever need while others starve in front of your uncaring eyes.
Who's to decide how much someone needs? Wouldn't that depend on what type of lifestyle someone wants to accumulate for themselves?
Are you suggesting that once someone obtains a certain standard for themselves, they should start redistributing their wealth to others who have not done the same?
No, I am suggesting that greed is what I said it is.
Every person obviously decides for themselves. Just as obviously, some are disgustingly greedy.
Of course, YOU'RE not greedy.
Neither am I.
Nor is anyone else who reads this post.
No one is ever greedy in their OWN eyes, it takes someone else to label them greedy.
-- You now see the folly of such a label.
But you're suggesting that any wealth accumulated and kept after a certain point is GREEDY because "they don't need it".
If a business is successful and lucrative because it provides a quality good/service that the consumer wants, and did so under the direction of a savvy, intelligent, and perceptive business owner, then why shouldn't this owner be able to reap the benefits of his/her rewards to the fullest extent?
If someone earns enough money to get 1, 2, or 3 in-ground swimming pools in the backyard of their 100 million dollars mansion, then SO BE IT! They don't owe anything to anybody! Why should they be burdened with more taxes because they made choices in life that reaped success?
Tell me why hedgefund managers are taxed at 15%, while teachers are taxed at 35?
Where's the wealth being distributed?
Income disparity....yeah, I think so.
Exxxxxxon/Mobil paid 0 taxes, polluted the earth-water-and air.
Meanwhile, the middle class worker has sunk into poverty.
Repubs say "we block everything unless we get the rich tax give-aways."
Who do they work for? Not me!
Warren Buffet says the poor and middle class pay most of the burden of society already. He says it's their kids who fight in the wars, build the roads, and pay the bills. And he should know....being a member of the upper uber class.
How about lower taxes for everyone? Isn't that what the Republicans are saying?
Or did a Huff Post blogger tell you different?
I thought everyone got a tax cut this year?
I did....for the first time EVER! Thank you Obama!!!
No, that's called "not being charitable".
Greed is looking out for yourself. That's a good thing.
I'm not mkaing a profit. I do not make enough to survive. I am living pay-check to pay-check, and paying bills little here, little there.
My boss, however, lives quite nicely on my labor.
Your boss does live quite nicely "on" your labor - HE GAVE YOU AN F-ING JOB. Without him you'd be starving.
PS - I know you're not cutting it from pay-check to pay-check, because you're spending so much time on this website. You were posting around 2 PM this afternoon, 4:30 this afternoon, and other times that you were likely at work.
And without workers where would the employer be?
without workers, the employer WOULD BE A WORKER!
He would be working on his own until his entrepreneurial spirit led him to gain enough profits that he could hire people to work to increase his profits even more. Then he could hire more people... etc etc.
But, alas, hiring people is an evil practice in this day and age if it's ONLY FOR PROFITS!!!
NOOOOOOOOO!!!! PROFITS!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
But...not everyone can be a boss. Not everyone who is not a boss is lazy, many work just as hard as the boss for little pay.
How many companies out there have been handed down from generation to generation?
I have never said that I think all employers are evil. I believe that there must be give and take in the employer/worker relationship. I certainly don't believe that people should be grateful that their boss gave them a job when the boss needs them as much as they need him.
Do you know my work hours now Evan? This is not a typical 9-5 job. Especially in this seasonal economy of Cape Cod.
We all work odd hours, and try to share the Winter-Slow-Down as best as possible. It's called working together as a team.
You ARE making profit.
If you have a phone and are paying bills, that is a luxury you can afford BECAUSE of your paycheck. Same for car, cable, etc.
How much do you take for granted? Seriously.
Your boss lives quite nicely because he/she took advantages of opportunities that were made available to him/her.
Boy, your boss gets paid more than you do?! 4 realz?? What a n00b! Tax the rich!
PSHAWWW, my friend, pshaw.
I envy my boss and I strive to make choices in life that can replicate his success. If a business is thriving and I know my work is contributing to that, THAT MAKES ME FEEL GOOD!
You just complain about money being made off your labor -- LOL! What a deadbeat society we would have if everyone adopted this mentality.
I've worked for him 10 years. I work hard and always go the extra mile. I can work any department there, and when people are sick, I fill in for them...no matter what the job is.
But since it's a private-sector job, I have no benefits, no guarenteed pay increases....in fact, we all went without a raise for 6 years when he was trying to get the biz off the ground!
I have paid my dues to him. Why should I be struggling, now that he's "made it"?
You seem to think my labor is a commodity to be treated shabbily. Why is that?
Then quit!! If the job doesn't appreciate you, and you can do better elsewhere... LEAVE! get a better pay check elsewhere! Thats how the market works: you abuse your employer, he fires you; your employer abuses you, you leave.
That's how competition checks greed. Your greed checks his greed, and together the two greedy parties reach an agreement.
So take your hard work ethic and skills, and apply them somewhere else! If you really are the angelic, model worker that you portray yourself to be, then you should have no problem seeking employment from someone who treats you better. If you DESIRE MORE (sounds a bit greedy if you ask me), then GO FIND IT! Apply your skills somewhere else, or develop new ones!
You're the one who remains idle at a job that you express dissatisfaction with, so it is YOU who looks at your labor as a cheap commodity. I'm no career counselor, but isn't it a good idea for someone who is not getting paid enough at their job to find financial gain through some other means?
You have NO RIGHT to be paid more than whatever offer your employer puts on the table. You DO have a right to reject or accept that offer.
Greed is good.
The desire to accumulate more is inherent in every individual. Capitalism recognizes and addresses this very human quality.
If you start up your own business and finally turn profits you would be ecstatic -- but you wouldn't say "Okay, good enough." No. You would fine tune your practices, calculating ways to sell more goods, to beat out your competitors.
You greedy prick!
So now you own a business that is allowing you to pull in a six-figure salary -- plenty of money, right? Maybe so, but if an individual wants to continue increasing profits through good business practice that does not make him an evil capitalist pig.
Capitalism rewards those who lack complacency. People who never settle, who reach for more and who continue to desire reap the most from a system that doesn't put a cap on achievement. If this is "evil" then so be it -- I'm the devil.
You can't regulate and legislate a society into economic equality -- especially when it's regulation, manipulation, and distortion that cause the inequality in the first place! Corporations who short-change the consumer (or little guy) while still turning huge profits are only able to do so because they continue to deal and exchange with Washington -- subsidies, special benefits, etc.
End of lesson.
"ZOMG!! If someone else charges me $2.00 for a cup of coffee, but it only cost them $1.50... AND I STILL CHOOSE TO BUY IT... I'M BEING EXPLOITED!! THESE EVIL CORPORATIONS FORCE ME TO BUY THEIR COFFEE!!!"
it's like... how can you even come to that conclusion?!
"You can't regulate and legislate a society into economic equality"
Just the opposite, they have legislated into economic in-equality.
All the Repub policies benefit the rich.
Starting with Reagan. Privitize and De-Regulate. The book-ends of our demise.
Chris: there are two parties in congress.
Deal with it
Your repub blaming further exposes you as an inept interpreter of reality. You refuse to acknowledge any wrong-doing on the part of YOUR party.
And you ironically are the one who accuses FOX of being guilty of the same misconstruing that you take part in.
Have you ever thought about working for them? In the end, political slant is political slant, doesn't really matter which way it falls.
Please explain the wrong-doing of Democrats in this current fiscal mess.
And the income disparity not matched since the Robber Baron era of the 1930's.
How are the Dems responsible?
Decreased privacy of the individual.
INCOME DISPARITY PRECISELY BECAUSE OF GOVERNMENT TAKEOVER OF OUR ECONOMY.
Increase in Taxes -- a fundamental error of perceiving our economic woes as a revenue problem rather than a spending.
And it goes on.
But it doesn't matter. These problems are not strictly Democratic, but this is just another point you will continually miss. You see, not only must you defend the inept policies you so fervently support, but you must also demonstrate why these policies are only right when your Dems impose them.
And you fail. Miserably.
Your arguments have been owned from all angles through theory, fact, and real-life scenarios that demonstrate the errors in your political philosophies. But no, you continue to lament on about the grief Republicans cause -- it's like listening to Sean Hannity ramble on about Obama pre-2008 election. It's downright irritating.
You 2 are clueless.
But you are getting your way. The unemployed will be thrown to the streets, while the uber-rich will be helped even more.
.....remind me again---what jobs were created here with those Bush-era tax cuts?
I hate bush. Don't, for a second, think I'll ever defend that sleaze bag.
You look at an economy and think that we need jobs. This is Keynesian nonsense. Jobs are NOT the tell-all end-all of economic goodness.
I have a brilliant plan that would increase employment to 100% instantaneously! Let's blow up everything that uses electricity. Employment will SKYROCKET to 100% as people suddenly need to forage for their own sustenance.
You now see how pointless "jobs" are to an economy.
Jobs are pointless to an economy. Wow. That one blew my mind.
Can I ask you----what is the point of living?
I made a great argument - that jobs exist as a symptom of trying to achieve a better lot in life, and then you retort with a meta spiritual question from millenia ago.
Let me answer in the negative: the meaning of life is NOT to get a job.
You are thus refuted
and to follow through even further-
if you lived in an economy where no one worked, but could, just by saying a sentence, have anything they wanted without waiting at all... Would you say that this is a good economy despite the fact that no one worked? or would you say that this is a horrible economy BECAUSE no one worked.
I can already hear the gears grinding away.
I'm going to shock Evan by agreeing with him twice in one post. We need about 100 million more farmers in the US. If more families could meet their own basic needs in a self-sufficient way, we as a society would be weathering this recession a lot better.
It's funny how completely different ideologies can lead to similar conclusions: ultimately people DO want to help their fellow man -- no matter if you're an anarchist or a communist.
Real quick about the farmer thing: I'm just saying that we don't know for sure the most efficient way to farm. We both have our theories but neither of us knows for sure
Let us know how you feel after you have worked for as long as a lot of us here have.
"i'm older than you, thus your insights are pointless"
... ugh... really? is that what this debate comes down to? ... I'll call up my grandpa (90 this year) and ask him what he thinks about working.
OH WAIT ! I already know - he was a hard worker who invested his money wisely enough that he can pay for the luxury of health care in his old age. and for his astronomy hobby.
My other grandpa was an entrepreneur - he started a company that now makes digital cameras for microscopes: Diagnostic Instruments. (website: http://www.diaginc.com/ ) This company was started about 30 years ago in my grandpa's toolshed. it now is an international business that is providing important hi-tech tools needed by companies that do countless important things for our lives. The company now provides an income and a better standard of living for around 100 people.
But, no, "Uninvited Writer" and "lovemychris" can only view my grandfather as an evil man who 'exploited' his workers (by giving them pay checks) to the point where he made enough profits that he could afford a nice home and could pay for bringing up 6 children -- all who have college degrees: 3 are engineers, 1 is a radiologist, one is an architect/carpenter, and the other is my mother (she has two children who are college educated and EVIL BECAUSE THEIR LIVES WERE PAID FOR BY EXPLOITATION OF WORKERS!! MWARRRRRRR).
PWNT. PWNT hard. Dont' play the "age card", because I know countless people who are older than you who agree with me.
My grandfather came here from Lithuania and was a weaver at a factory.
At 65, he tried to start a union so that workers didn't have to put up with the dangerous working conditions, low pay, and long hours. The owner of the factory kicked him off his job.
This was in Worcester, Mass...not far from Fall River--you know, the place made famous because all those women DIED in a fire which happened because of dangerous working conditions.
Much like the mining fiasco that happened here recently.
Lax standards to save money.
Poverty wages to increase profit.
And the people who should be "so lucky" to have a job are risking their lives for the boss man so he can vacation in the Bahamas.
Meanwhile, they can't pay the bills.
There has to be some give and take in society. In the United States, it has been all take for the upper classes.
We are all citizens.
This crap of the rich getting richer while the poor get poorer is no way to run a country.
And it has happend with gvt help.
Giving the upper 2 percent a break in taxes, while the rest have to make up for it is stealing from the poor to give to the rich.
It needs to stop.
If you want to live tax-free---there is Dubai.
If you google it, you will see there is no end to the serfs you can exploit to your benefit. They have no choice, as there is no such thing as equality there...they don't even pretend. Like we do here.
Why didn't he just quit? why didn't the others start their own company that would compete? Why didn't they pool together their money to buy an emergency fire prevention system for their factory?
There are SO many alternatives to "government mandates".
Anyway, my point wasn't about our families' experiences. It was that mindless arguments like "you're still young and thus foolish" don't hold ANY value in a forum like this
Exactly! What you describe, UW, is the classic symbiotic relationship.
Where the employer exploits its workers or its customers, harming them for its own gain (aka greed) is a parasitic relationship.
The employee "exploits" their employers as well!!!!!
Listen to the people on this forum : " waaaaaah I have a job that provides me miraculous items like a computer and the Internet.... They owe me more!!! Waaaaaa"
Who's exploiting who?
Wow- i really cannot believe that people are this ignorant! Having had over 300 employees at one time I will tell you that yes, while there are great employees, they are few and far between, most are merely mediocre some good but there is an increasing need for employers to have to teach their potential employees what a work ethic is.
Lets not even talk about those that abuse the system or even steal from the employer, then scream over someone else being promoted or given a raise while they themselves do nothing to excel. Then see what happens when I fire the lazy thieving bum, I am tied up in courts having to prove that I documented everything to justify the firing. Now wait that doesn't cost me any money- lawyers from the ACLU work for free don't they for the lazy employee, but if I should lose the case you should see their bill. But that is the LIBERAL mentality of fairness, how dare I make money off of paying someone else a wage, I obviously am someone who got handed everything, so it is ok that they take it from me. THANK goodness, I sold out.
Hail the entrepreneur. Notice how the government has crushed this man's spirit to create and benefit society.
BINGO. These people think it's all about the greed of the EMPLOYERS -- they always portray themselves as the beaten, bloodied earnest workers who are paid much less than they should be. PLEASE.
Workers are not entitled to anything besides what they agree to be paid! If they do not reap the rewards necessary to satisfy the amount of work they put in then WORK SOMEWHERE ELSE.
Any businessperson who "exploits" their workers isn't going to have that much success. Who would work for them?!
My job provides me a poverty wage.
My labor provides my boss a luxurious life-style.
There is no middle ground in this country anymore.
Exaggeration doesn't win arguments.
Keep finding time to debate people over the internet in between slaving it to the man and trying to make ends meet on your "poverty salary".
There IS a middle ground. Just because you haven't personally been able to achieve it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
All I know is, I wouldn't want to work for either of you. And I am a very hard worker...
And...I am on my break at this minute...
It appears you take a lot of breaks, and what a shame too, I paid very well, and always let the employees show off his or her character- Yours is starting to show what type of a employee you are
See how you don't want to work for me?
GOOD! I'm sure you're a hard worker, but no one is forcing you to work for us - it's voluntary! Your greed for your own self interest competes with mein own.
The sad point of this whole conversation ins epitomized by the attitude of Uninvited Writer. The companies are the evil entities not the people who put out the false claims that need to have millions of dollars spent to investigate their claims- fraud is rampant in this company and woe be to the company who stops to investigate it. More to the point Insurance companies make a 3% margin, and have to report to the government for permission for any increases. By the way that is a very modest profit margin by any stretch of the imagination- but the far left would have you believe that they are stealing from everyone. WOW what arrogance- I know lets make those who complain about that 3% go out and take all the risks and start their own companies, then they can complain, but until then they are all just flapping their ignorant gums
It all stems from Marx's complete misunderstanding of the term "wealth". So many people latched on to this idiotic idea that wealth can't be created, and thus in order for one person to gain wealth they necessarily steal it from another.
It's disgusting that the writings of this man - writings which can be blamed on hundreds of millions of deaths throughout the world - are still held to such esteem!
I'd like to comment on your "lets make those who complain about that 3% go out and take all the risks and start their own companies, then they can complain, but until then they are all just flapping their ignorant gums" comment...
-- Would you agree that perhaps there should be some sort of "entrepreneur requirement" for voting? sorry to put you on the spot, but this has become a mild issue lately thanks to the Tea Party. Maybe a property requirement to vote?
Having frown up in Europe, the only part of their political society that I agree with is the requirement that all young males of 18 must serve 2 years in the military ( I favor the Marine Corps) it amazes me how much a young person will grow up in a 13 week boot camp. Oh I know that there are those that would say that the BOOTS are getting brained washed- but actually they are being forced to grow up and to think.
Outside of the military proviso, I would like no other requirement for voting- this is a Republic (NOT a Democracy as the left would have us to believe) so we really can not force any one to believe one way or another, nor to I want to. The free market must, out of necessity, have a free market place of ideas to grow. Ignorance of business will continue as long as there are people out there who believe they are entitled to something someone else has.
People with very bad attitudes are a liability to humanity. There are plenty of predatory companies in the world, and you can blame them for a lot of things, but a person is STILL responsible for their own bad attitude and behavior. All this pissing and moaning by some of you guys, bragging how good you are, and then telling others here they are lazy only reveals more about you than them. Very sad, angry little people.
you are very right their are plenty of people with bad attitudes, and their are a few predatory companies out there, however believe it or not the companies customers will take care of them. If you think that that will not happen go and start a company and offer services or items below acceptable standards and see how long you last.
But while you are basking in your liberal fantasies, do no forget about the large amount of individuals out there that are, let us say a little less then honest. If you cant think of some i will give you some that literally cost millions of dollars every year.
How about the woman who buys a dress for a special occasion, then returns it after the occasion (uncleaned of course). The company cannot sell it as new, oh well, she needed it and the company can afford to take the loss. Or, let us not forget all of the shop lifters, the bad checks, stolen credit cards. They really do not cast the company do they'
Yes you are so very right , these upstanding examples of human integrity are really sad. I sincerely hope that you are not one of them.
Gag me with a spoon. I suppose nobody had those insights before you offered them here...I think you were the one spouting off about who is lazy and who is not. I don't see how you qualify in making that judgment looking through a computer screen at a cyber avatar. The additional verbiage you just offered seems more like a personal diatribe than a contribution.
However, IF I'm in error, I apologize. The jury is out, however.
What a load of crappola/shinola!
Poor Poor companies eh? HA!
If left to their own devices, they will rob cheat and steal! AND provide poor quality AND not care who is injured, poisoned or dead thanks to their ineptitude and greed for money over all.
Fugoutta here with your superior attitudes about Business.
They would be NOWHERE without labor, and you should realize that.
Unless you want to go out and do your own dirty work for the measly wages you pay. And then cry about a minimum wage. Cry about having to pay taxes, pay employees, pay anything but your trips to Switzerland to visit your money.
If you only value your bank account, you are a poor example of an American. Which most business these days are....the big ones anyway.
Unions had to come into play for all the exploited workers in history. Don't forget, nor re-write it!
PS: you can't "just quit" a job....not even in my grandpa's day. It's not like there are a lot to go around. They all went overseas with the tax-give-aways from Bush.
When did I say anyone was lazy? I think you have me confused with one of the 2 anti-labor guys here.
I was just answering attack for attack. You 3 vilify workers and hold up owners as Saints.
And spare me your false humility. It's quite obvioius you see yourself as superior to me.
If you're referring to my post, it wasn't directed at you, it was directed at Ed. So I apologize if there is a misunderstanding.
you really do only see what you want. I never vilified workers, just those who lie cheat and steal. And where in the world you you get the idea I am anti-labor, go back and read the post again. I am literally speaking from personal knowledge having worked 20 hours a day 6 to 7 days a week for 23 years. I built my company from a 1 man operation to over 350 people. Employers are not evil and employees are not either , but there are bad people on both sides of the issue. So unless you have walked a mile in my shoes, as a business owner with employees you speak from a total lack of knowledge. I have on the other hand had both good and bad bosses, What I had a boss. yep, sure did, had to work to save the money to start my money grubbing business. you really need to see beyond your dogma. And forget about false humility, I built the company, you didn't , i planned it out hired the right people to make it grew and allowed them to grow with me. OH, yes i made lots of mistakes and I paid for every one of them. And you know I never asked any of the employees to help pay for those mistakes- they never went without their paycheck, but there were times when my family did, thank goodness we saved when we could. Never could take a long vacation, rarely took more then 3 days off at a time. and Sat through audits every time the IRS didn't think I paid enough in taxes, with tax lawyers in tow as the IRS rarely knew the tax laws. Sounds funny doesn't it but it is all true.
So yes I was a business man for many years, and yes I have had a lot of bad experiences with bad employees, and bad managers and bad bosses and bad laws. I am not patting myself on the back but it is very tiring to see young people get filled with the garbage that the employer is always bad- IF YOU DON'T LIKE YOUR EMPLOYER DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.START A BUSINESS. But as you seem to know it all, you probably will just keep complaining. Sad
I guess cyber space is okay to lose all respect for others since you really don't know they're real. At least that's what I'm gathering from your responses to others.
I am not complaining. I am stating the way I see it. You choose to throw the label on my words to diminish them.
We all experience what we experience...and you seem to think my experience isn't worth a crap.
Oh, and you know...there is one way to see if how I feel is right.
What is the income disparity now in this country?
Where is the middle class?
WHAT destroyed it? G R E E D.
I HATE IT WHEN PEOPLE FEED THEIR FAMILIES!! GRRR!!!
Every word i've typed has been next to lost, so I'll just post this. Watch if you feel you are secure enough to tear down his arguments
I hate it when people work and have to choose between feeding their families, or heating their house.
That link made my computer freeze up!! That is a sign. Hold up the sign of the cross....not going there!!!
And not interested in philosophical debate....I want to know what these people are going to do who can't find a job?
I want to know why a billonaire needs $103,000 more dollars in his pocket when it will increase the money we need to borrow from China by 700 billion over 10 years.
How is that good policy?
Wow they are still complaining. So the rich never earned their money, and you have the right to take it from them, hmmmm.
There you have it folks the progressive theology at work- don't stop the spending take it from the people who make the jobs. WE are entitled not those that earn the money.
Sorry lovemychris, You can see that the European style of government is working real well and you want to bring it here?? lets see where can we fir Greece and Portugal.
what a sad state of affairs when the "sit on my butt and offer no solutions crowd" can dictate to those who make more money that we have to pay more in taxes.
Personally I am happy that there are those individuals who can earn vast sums of money- GOOD FOR THEM- it proves the American dream is alive and well. Should they pay a higher percentage in taxes, NO that would be stealing
Bush stole when he started the Iraq and Afghan wars, and the prescription medicare drug bill, and did not pay for them. THAT was stealing.
Just as they must STEAL to make up for those bonuses the rich will receive.
They just announced the tax commission's proposed cuts and savings....
878 billion they came up with....the tax give-aways will cost 700 billion--they have not even made a dent! And geuss who is taking the brunt? Seniors and the disabled.
Hey --weren't those seniors workers at one time? Or do you think all of them who will be asked to 'sacrifice' are "sit on my butt" people?
Just think...you could save all this with no sacrifice at all! Ask the billionaires to give up a lunch...one lunch for the good of the country. Think that's asking too much?
I mean, they do get the very best fruits that America has to offer....is One Lunch too much for them to "sacrifice"?
Apparently so. So now those who cannt work will have to suffer even more....just SO the rich can fatten their already stuffed wallets.
What a country you Repubs provide. Enough to make you sick.
Jan Shakowski (sp?) has a plan that will do it all without asking people who have an $18,000 a year income pay even more to be poverty-level poor.
A billionaire doesn't need a billion bucks, but he earned it. And he earned it by volunteering offering his goods or services to others who voluntarily gave money for those goods/services.
Who helped more people? Mother Theresa or Henry ford?
Obviously the profit driven millionaire has done more
EVERYBODY who works earns it!!!
And as a percentage of their incomes, the ultra rich pay less than anybody!
That is robbing Robin Hood to pay The King.
ps: the deficit commission report offered by the 2 chairman keeps the tax bonuses and all the tax loopholes for the rich. Care about the deficit? HA!
That's incorrect. The more you make, the more you pay. Especially if you are single.
Warren Buffet pays tax at 12%. His secretary pays at 32%.
Obviously 12% of 6 billion is more that 32% of $100,000 (just geussing on the wages)
But, as a PERCENTAGE, she pays more. He gets to keep 88% of what he earns. She gets to keep 68%.
She contributes more of her sweat and blood to America. Who do you think gets more out of it?
James K. GalbraithEconomist, Author
Posted: December 3, 2010 09:59 AM
Casting Light on "The Moment of Truth"
"The report of the National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform, issued on December 1, 2010 by Chairmen Erskine Bowles and Alan Simpson, is entitled "The Moment of Truth." The words appear in block caps on the second page, weighty and portentous. They reappear in the first paragraph of the preamble: "Throughout our nation's history, Americans have found the courage to do right by our children's future. Deep down, every American knows that we face a moment of truth once again."
These sentences set the tone. The first is a bald-faced lie, as a Westerner like Senator Simpson knows perfectly well. To the contrary, we have often fallen under the sway of robber barons, water barons, oil barons, bison-killers, clear-cutters and strip-miners, hell-bent on maximum pillage in the shortest time. Only occasionally have a few heroes like Teddy and Franklin Roosevelt, Gifford Pinchot and Harold Ickes Sr. emerged to battle for the most precious physical elements of our heritage -- and then only with limited success."
We are at that moment again. Do we give it all away to the rich? Or do we show some concern for the other 90% of us?
Warren Buffet's tax bracket is 35%. If he's paying 12%, he is either defrauding the government or he's paying an army of accountants and lawyers to find loopholes. Either way, 35% of his income is taxible.
Now, during tough economic times the rich make a fourtune! That's because they have more disposible income. Which means they can take advantage of those who are desparate and sell off their assets at bargain prices.
Fraud and loopholes are part of the tax system -- yet another reason why tax brackets are an awful solution to very serious economic problems.
I think the actual figure he's cited is about 17%, not 12. Presumably, most of his income comes from dividends and capital gains, which are taxed at 15%.
Well that explains the figure. Even still we are not comparing apples to apples here. In any case the 15% rate expires this year. Dividends and Short Term Capital Gains will be taxed as normal income. Longterm Capital Gains will be taxed at 15%.
Some people have the ability to work FOR a business, but are not able RUN one. Tis the way it goes.
The ones who are capable of running a business shouldn't pay more in taxes, especially when they are giving financial opportunity to the ones only capable of working for one.
Everybody envies the rich. The only difference is some work hard to emulate their success, obtaining work experience, completing degrees, building contacts, taking risks, and using their minds to ensure an equally lucrative lifestyle. Others, conversely, sit idly by and lament on about how their boss makes more than them; how society is unfair; how's there's no room for improvement on the little guy's part; and (perhaps most absurdly of all), how the guy who DID make it needs to help pay the little guy's way to the top (despite already being the one's who employ these people).
I'm glad I fall into the former, upset I need to listen to the latter.
you don't "earn" money, you agree to do something with someone else in exchange for money.
Earning money almost means "entitled to", but that's not correct. You agree with X to do Y for Z. You do Y, X agrees that you did it, and then X pays you the Z that he promised you.
youtube makes your computer freeze, and then you spout religious rhetoric? did I miss something?
One more and then I'm out for the day-- this from a comment on that article:
"Somebody has to backfill the enormous hole created by massive corporate bailouts, likely near-trill ion-dollar tax cut for the very rich and endless wars that, while off-budget , still need to be paid for.
This hole is becoming a black hole that sucks in everything around it and lets nothing escape, not even light. We will face the direct burden of funding an ongoing orgy, never really knowing where our meager dimes are going, and yet the appetite for more just increases.
This is an enormous scam on the American people. Borrowing trillions to further enrich the already rich, then asking the rest of us to pay off the note, is disgusting ."
I whole-heartedly agree!
Maybe this isn't well understood yet, but capitalism and free markets died 2 years ago when the bailouts happened. Trillions went into prop up 'free' markets. Its just a house of cards.
If you want health insurance, then you have 2 choices, let private 'for profit' companies provide it where they dictate the rules or let the gov't run it. Simple choice, just decide which one turns your nose the least. Here in Canada, we decided to let the gov't do it, some what inefficiently, but it is seen as human right to have affordable access to primary health care so its better in their hands.
3.2 trillion to be exact. And we know this thanks to the law that Dennis Kucinich, Bernie Sanders and Ron Paul put through to make the Fed fess up to where the $$ went, and how much,
sorry---NOW I'm done.
If doctors were directly competing with each other for the patient's dollar, cost would be low enough! And you wouldn't need to make a co-payment when you get a little bump on the head!
Patients and doctors could then negotiate prices and treatment without third party insurance companies second-guessing these decisions every step of the way.
Health care is a SERVICE (a damn profitable one, and rightfully so!), one that is provided by someone who invests their time and effort into acquiring the skills necessary to deliver it!
A free-market exchange is the best way to deliver health care. Period.
Sorry EPman, I would want my doctors worrying about treatment, not negotiating prices with insurers. That is beyond inefficient and will just delay your care. Capitalism and health care do not line up like most businesses even though you wish it would.
if you think that our current health care system has anything to do with capitalism, you're not very well informed.
the AMA exists and has a government monopoly on how many doctors are allowed to exist.
Insurance exists largely because of government incentives.
I dont' even need to say anything more!
Not sure if I wrote it wrong or you read it wrong, but my point is that insurance companies, as an intervening third-party force, do exactly what you say they do: increase inefficiency and delay care.
That being said, you are incredibly wrong about capitalism not being able to handle health care. All our problems with costs and treatment can be traced back to health care's deviance from the free-market.
Doctors provide a service, patients pay for it!
No one wants to own up to this EP. We have "divorced" ourselves from health care cost in this country. Its caused this idea that we need/require health insurance. The fact is that most don't.
If the Federal and State governments allowed casinos the advantages they allow insurance companies, the people would burn them to the ground!LOL
I agree one hundred percent. It's absurd that I need to make a co-payment for a checkup. Why are costs so high that I can't pay out of pocket for these minute health services? Prices obviously don't reflect the actual cost of care -- it's distortions in the market caused by deviance from a free-market system of delivery.
Healthcare, free markets, capitalism, profits, whatever. None are impervious to coruption. The system isn't working and whether it might be better than any other system simply adds neglect to our current failure. I don't presume to have an answer, but, I can presume that the current state of health care in this country has problems. That is the beginning point. Until we agree that every individual has an inherent right in the perpetual struggle to live and that this right is not determined by class or wealth, we argue needlessly. Wealth should determine privilege when it concerns the comfort of our lives, but, it should not determine whether we live or die. That is akin to supplying life boats only to first class passengers and everyone else should fend for themselves. Wealth may afford the luxury of a more comfortable lifeboat but not the fundamental right to a lifeboat. Profit is not an evil in and of itself. It has the potential to become evil when it is held as the highest good. Our system, is a noble system, but only when constrained by a moral framework. At some point, profit at any cost, becomes obscene. I apologise for not putting forth a solution, but it seems pointless if we can not agree that there is a problem.
If I was inclined to paranoia I might see it as a vast conspiracy.
Big Pharma comes up with a new drug.
They rush approval through the FDA
They promote it to the medical community (as they always have) through what is basically a system of bribery
They spend millions to promote it to the public to pull demand through the medical establishment
The public gobbles up the new drug like candy
A few years go by.
People start getting sick and dying from the drug
Suddenly there's a big recall
And guess who gets to make money now?
Yep. The lawyers.
Class action city, baby!
But Big Pharma says, "Oh well. You win some, you lose some."
And they're onto the next new breakthrough
And the cycle repeats
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