How to Become Vice President - Never use the P-Word!

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SirDentposted 16 years ago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0wJXf2nt4Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBYtij4Q7sE

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p … B7nMZOjxyw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBR8Z-l8LXg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLIdxF-GHWw

Many videos to watch.
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Leta Sposted 16 years ago
How does one know a troll from somebody who doesn't really know how to communicate?? Sir Dent, didn't you write a hub on trolls?
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  SirDentposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Yes I did write a hub on trolls. Actually I wrote two of them.
  
  Trolls only want reactions to their comments. They try and get a person flustered and defensive. They like to get their lulz.
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Leta Sposted 16 years ago
Sufi-- You are so Englishman sounding,
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  Sufidreamerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Only in the written word - my accent is like Daphne's from Frasier.
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SweetiePieposted 16 years ago
I noticed several have said they avoid YouTube, but I would not avoid it 100%. Respected new agencies such as the BBC also have videos on youtube. Any video sharing website is going to have garbage on it to, but I do not discredit it for that reason. Youtube has many great uses from watching news clips from respected new agencies to making personal videos. I use it to make my jewelry how to videos, which are great traffic to my hubs.

By the way I checked out Make Money's link to the video on YouTube, and it was removed for third party copyright infringement, not because it was not true. Often when general users upload a video that do not belong to them it can be removed because of third party copyright violations, but it does not necessarily mean the video was fake or propaganda.
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SirDentposted 16 years ago
And the troll gets his lulz anyway.
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  Sufidreamerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  lol. Sorry, SirDent - I cannot resist sometimes. It is past 4am, I have finished work, and I am off to bed. He has all night to think of a witty and cutting response.
  
  I hope that I brought a little joy into his life.
  
  Goodnight.
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  SirDentposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Good night Sufi.
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ReuVeraposted 16 years ago
Hey, hey, people. What’s wrong with you? You are almost on the point of shooting rockets into each other .
I chose to go for a beer in Sufi’s house. But without trolls.
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  SirDentposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Hi RueVera.
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  ReuVeraposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Hi, SirDent Are you joining us at Sufi’s house?
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  SirDentposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I never drink anything with alcohol in it. He would have to stock up on Dr. Pepper for me. I also seem to recall he said he is a vegetarian. I may be wrong on that point. If he is, I would have to bring my own steaks I suppose.
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  SweetiePieposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I do not like alcohol either. Why drink something that tastes gross when you can have orange juice or a yummy tasting soda .
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  countrywomenposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Seems like a party where even I am welcome with no meat and no alcohol. I will make Indian Tea(with cardamom oh yes we Indians love spices in everything) and would partake of the Baklava Greek Biscuits(which our gracious host Sufi is going to provide).
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  SweetiePieposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  It sounds like a great party with all these different kinds of food. I am with you on the vegetarian fare too. I have had bakalava before at a really good Middle Eastern restaurant that also specialized in Greek dishes. This was the best little restaurant, but I do not think it is around anymore.
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  countrywomenposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I guess Mike feels we are having way too much fun and its about time to get back to serious political discourse (now my head starts aching with all this sad happenings if I stay around here for too long). Good bye friends.
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  ReuVeraposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I suppose I will follow CW. I put up all reasons and information I had and don’t want to go over and over same things. Who have ears will hear, who have eyes will read. If who doesn’t want to hear and read, I can’t help. I’m on my way to Greece to a peaceful party in Sufi’s back yard:P I’ll bring my own beer, Makkabi and have authentic Gyros Good bye, people.
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  Sufidreamerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I am veggie, but no problem, Sir Dent. You can be the barbeque maestro, although it will have to be kosher/halal. We will have Muslims, so non-alcoholic drinks will be provided. Just got to work out how we are going to fit a few million Israelis and Palestinians into the garden. I might have to ask the neighbours if we can use their land.
  
  It is a shame that politicians cannot be as civilized as us.
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  BDazzlerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Burbon and Fine Cigars for me please. And rare beef.
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  Sufidreamerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  No problem, although you will have to ask SirDent about the beef!
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ReuVeraposted 16 years ago
Israel respects all holy sites, including of Christianity. Israel never prevents people from visiting those sites. Israel keeps holy sights protected and taken care of. Israel will never deny people of different faith to visit holy sites.
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Israel deserves sympathy and support from all freedom loving people. Because, I think they are not going offensive at first... only when they are aroused for a fight, they react in the strongest possible way. Till they confine themselves to defensive fighting, they will certainly win.
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  Paragliderposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  ReuVera - you are living in dreamland - Israel's rulers will not even let Gaza students take up scholarships abroad or let Gaza footballers go to Qatar for a friendly international. They believe in incarcerating, starving and in every possible way subjugating and humiliating Gaza Palestinians. Apart from that, yes, they are nice folks.
  
  Venu - why don't you read the thread from the top? The blockade of Gaza has killed far greater numbers than any home-made rockets. Israel will 'win' this 'battle', insofar as they will murder huge numbers while suffering few casualties. Shame on you for supporting this.
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  The sympathy of right-thinking people always goes with those affected by violence.... be it Israelis or muslims. Fighting should be confined between soldiers only. Neither innocent people should be affected nor "innocent" people should engage in fighting with soldiers.
  My support for Israel is for its existence; not for those who want Israelis to be driven out.... certainly not for those who are living in dreamland.
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  Paragliderposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Venu - The problem with saying "fighting should be confined between soldiers only" is that it simply translates into "might is right". If Hamas built a garrison town in some remote corner and moved all their operations there, Israel would simply obliterate them. So they don't do that. Would you?
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Why cant the Hamas build a disciplined and well trained army? All civilised nations do that. Instead of making people shout "ha ha ha" with raised guns in their hands, they can enrol them in an army and train them.. atleast after 10 months, they can face the Israeli army. I dont think Israel is so much invincible that they can wipe out a garrison of disciplined, well armed soldiers. The Israelis come into Gaza easily because they know the people will only shout with guns and cannot do anything more.
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  Paragliderposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Because they are already under siege.
  And because they don't want a conventional war with a far stronger US-supported enemy.
  Would you?
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Among the 200 (or so) nations of the world, how many are capable of challenging the US ?
  Do they not survive, with some hope ?
  But you think Israel is a strong US supported enemy and they dont want a conventional war. But what kind of unconventional war do you expect?
  Unless and untill you disturb the nest, the bees will not come out to disturb you.
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  livelongerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Apparently not - especially when your most important commitment is the destruction of Israel, even at the expense of your own people's welfare.
  
  And when you're dealing with an enemy committed to your destruction (not an equitable division of land, not coexistence, none of the things that well-meaning outsiders imagine it to be) that violates ceasefires, targets civilian populations, and uses its own population as human shields, there isn't a whole lot about "fairness" that seems applicable, at least to me.
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  Make Moneyposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  You are lying again ReuVera. Here's a list of some of the Israel crimes against Christianity.
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  countrywomenposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Mike- By accusing some one of "lying" you may never get them to see your view point. And coming to view point is their meant to be only two view points. Both the view points may have some merit and using a language which is more acceptable like "alternative view" or "another side" of the story does build a rapport to have a more civil discussion. Please don't take my words otherwise since it is a humble opinion of mine. You do have a lot of information to share and the message to get across sometimes needs to be tuned better. Hope you don't misunderstand me and if at all I have hurt you in anyway through my words I sincerely apologize for the same.
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  ReuVeraposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  All information you are giving is always taken from pro-Islamic sites and therefore is highly questionable for its liability, as facts are often taken out of context or twisted.
  But anyway I don’t call you a liar. A liar is a person who tells lies. Lie should be obvious not truth to be called “lie”. If I am giving you information which you are not ready to accept, it is easier to call it lie, right?
  
  https://secured4.catom.com/JCPA/Templat … mp;IID=960
  
  https://secured4.catom.com/JCPA/index.asp
  
  I am done with this thread. You may continue calling me names, trying to insult me. Do it if it makes you happy. It doesn’t make much difference for me.
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  pylos26posted 16 years agoin reply to this
  ReuV...This quote of yours reflects the fable of a maniac, fool, idiot, blatant liar, or, of one that is just plain ignorant of the facts...would you please identify which shell you inhabit?
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  LondonGirlposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  What a great way to have a constuctive discussion!
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  ReuVeraposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  WOW….All those epithets and all for me alone…. What an honor….from trol’s royal mouth…..
  Looks like he doesn’t have other arguments to operate. Let’s see…. His next step will be firing katushas into my garden.
  
  You made my day, hon. If I got you SO mad, I've touched the sore point...
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sandra rinckposted 16 years ago
Thanks Mike!

Whethe you know it or not, I was on another thread asking about what makes a person a jew because I thought it was something spiritual not ethnic.

You just wrote what I thought I recalled about who was Jewish. Good to know, and good info. too. thanks Mike.

I wanna go to Sufi's too, I am down for vegies and beer, but me and whisky, barf! It''s a relationship that cannot be conconsiles. lol.
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  LondonGirlposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  No, not necessarily a religious definition at all. People can be (and often are) completely secular, and Jews.
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Make Moneyposted 16 years ago
Your welcome Sandra. I just read that other thread you are talking about with all the cutting and stuff. Ouch.

I'd take a whisky. It'd be nice to leave the 10% from each side in one spot to fight it out like Sufi says. Same amount from both sides, say 50 on either side with just sticks and stones in an area no bigger than 20 square miles. Who comes out on top wins 20 square miles of Antarctica.
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Make Moneyposted 16 years ago
While we prepare for this party at Sufi's place Israel has ignored another UN resolution for a ceasefire in Gaza that was supported by the Bush administration.

A friend sent this to me today that I believe should be posted here.
From http://www.321energy.com/editorials/mor … 10509.html

Correction the Gaza death toll is almost 800 now, three days after this article was published.

The links to both 'Their origins are in the Kingdom of Khazar' and 'go beyond war crimes' are quite revealing. A Google search for Khazars brings up many sources to prove that the Ashkenazi Jews, the rulers of Israel are descended from the Khazars who converted to Judaism in the 8th century AD. Arthur Koestler an Ashkenazi Jew who took pride in his Khazar ancestry has written probably the best source for Khazar information in his online book called The Thirteenth Tribe.

Mike
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Make Moneyposted 16 years ago
Holy man, even Jews that escaped the Nazis, grand children of holocaust victims and True Torah Jews from Montreal and New York are protesting zionist war crimes in Canada now. It was aired on CTV.
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Make Moneyposted 16 years ago
I hear what you are saying countrywomen and I know by reading your comments you have no intention of hurting anyone. I always look forward to reading your words of wisdom. But I know I will never get anyone like him to see my view point. My objective was exactly what I said, to show his lies. I'm with pylos26, I'm wondering what kind of nut is under that shell. A couple of days a go Israeli authorities said on the news that they would increase the process of getting out "their truth". Every time Israel makes incursions in to other lands it always comes with a major Israeli propaganda war. That propaganda war is played out on all medias including the internet and this forum. He is a part of that propaganda war.

Today I received this from a friend.

Quotes from above web site

Today on the news we hear that 90,000 Palestinians in Gaza have left their homes to avoid the bombings.

I've been thinking for some time now that the reason Israel pulled it's illegal settlers out of Gaza in 2005 was to make it a concentration camp for the Palestinians there. This proves it. The above does not do this article justice, it's best to read the whole article, http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php? … ;aid=11606

Mike
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knolyourselfposted 16 years ago
"And when you're dealing with an enemy committed to your destruction" So why are the one and a half million people in gaza, which is about twice the size of Washington DC, one of the world's largest ghettos, and how did they get there?
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  livelongerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I couldn't answer that authoritatively (don't have the data), but imagine it could be a combination of:
  - their ancestors lived there
  - they chose to move/live there
  - they were pushed out, or chose to leave, territories won by Israel during the 20th century post-1947 wars
  
  Don't see what this has to do with Hamas's aim to destroy Israel as an entity; its aim is not to get more land for Palestinians, and/or to coexist with Israel.
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knolyourselfposted 16 years ago
"they were pushed out, or chose to leave,"
Would you choose to live in Gaza for good?
"its aim is not to get more land for Palestinians,"
If you would not choose to live in Gaza, but had been driven out of your former home, one would think yes, their aim should be to get more land or rather get their land back. How come the Israelis should have the right to exist, but the Palistinians should not? The reason Hamas is hated is because they refuse to accept the occupation.
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  livelongerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  No, but we're not talking about me. I'm sure there are more than a handful of people who live there who want to live there. Like I said, I don't know the breakdown of people who want to live there permanently, and those who see themselves as there temporarily.
  
  I do believe that Palestine should exist (along the lines of the 1967 borders). The problem is that while Israel has accepted the idea of a Palestine since the UN partition, the Palestinian side often has not. And Hamas, the ruling government of Gaza, sees the destruction of Israel as one of its foundational goals.
  
  The reason Hamas is hated is because they want all of the land of Israel for themselves, they violate their own agreements and target civilians, and they use their own population as human shields when they face retaliation.
  
  Israel is no innocent party, but let's not kid ourselves.
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  Mishaposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Why shouldn't they? Isn't it the land of their ancestors? They lived there for dozens of generations, and then Roosevelt, Churchill, and Stalin came and say - Oh, and you know guys, those Jews got heavily oppressed recently, so we decided to sooth them by giving them your land...
  
  How sick is this and how twisted should we be to not recognize that as the root cause for a few generations of ensuing war?
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LondonGirlposted 16 years ago
Many Israelis are not from Russia or Poland, but had never left the area.
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livelongerposted 16 years ago
Got oppressed recently? Oh, come on, Misha. Jewish history is filled with being more than oppressed. They were routinely hounded by the ethnic majority and murdered (by the thousands and millions) because they had no homeland of their own to find refuge in.

And as London Girl said, there has been a presence of Jews in Israel for centuries. More and more moved there, because, as I said before and anyone could easily understand, they were not treated well elsewhere.

Like the Kurds, Jews did not have a homeland and were therefore constantly at the mercy of the countries that "hosted" them.

I should say that anyone from either side that lives in the fantasy that the other side's presence in the area is only recent, and that is the reason several million of them should immediately vacate, is sadly deluding themself. Both sides need to realize that they're not going to get everything they want, and that the only way they're going to have a semblance of a normal existence is to coexist.
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  Mishaposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I don't see where we disagree here
  
  May be just in exact numbers. First - genocide of WWII was exceptional even comparing to usual Jews fate. Second I really doubt you can talk about millions of Jews on this territory prior to the WWII.
  
  Again, I am far from saying Hamas is an angel, I am trying to explain why they even exist at all, and why this is not going to end any time soon, especially if Israel continue to recruit new members to Hamas from all over the Arab world by killing civilians...
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  livelongerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Well, you can look at the Spanish Inquisition, if you need another example from history when Jews were killed en masse. Should they just wait around for another, and just enjoy their lives in the meantime?
  
  As for the Jewish/Arab populations in 1947, it looks like about 600,000 Jews and double the number of Arabs (Wikipedia). I'm not sure why 1 million is a magic number, where if you don't cross it, then you must vacate the country.
  
  Hamas exists because there are plenty of Arabs who have never lost the goal of ridding the world of Israel altogether. I'm sure it gets a lot of its funding from other Arab and/or Muslim states, but recruiting them? How many Hamas members are Iraqi, Moroccan or Tunisian? My guess is close to zero.
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Mishaposted 16 years ago
I don't know real numbers, but my bet is the number of Jews who always lived there is lower than the number of immigrants by many orders.

It is not the point though. The rulers of the land were muslims for centuries, and the majority of population, too. I wish someone could chime in with reliable numbers, I don't really have time to do a serious research on this now.
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  livelongerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  You seem to have strongly-voiced opinions on a matter for which you have admittedly little information on.
  
  Regardless, how far back are you going to look at to set in stone the balance between Jews and Arabs (not all Muslims, mind you)? In the early 20th century, there was a large migration of Arabs into Israel - do they "not count"? Maybe they should be expelled, too, and only those who can trace ancestry there from the year 1875 should stay.
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  Mishaposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I used to be a blind Israel supporter for quite some time, I did have strongly-voiced opinions back then. Now I don't.
  
  I don't want to fight you. This whole situation makes me sick. If you have the numbers proving me wrong, voice them. I will change my stance if they are reliable.
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  livelongerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  It's possible to be neither a blind Israel supporter or a blind Palestinian supporter. It's not hard to be critical of both sides. And I have no interest in fighting you either, and don't see our thread as one of fighting. But, regardless, if you're busy, you're busy, and are not obligated to reply.
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  Make Moneyposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  There was no such country as Israel in the early 20th century livelonger. Misha didn't have the exact numbers but he was right.
  
  From http://books.google.ca/books?id=dZwKWOP … t#PPA49,M1
  
  Livelonger the large migration to Palestine in the 20th century that you are talking about were Ashkenazi Jews from Russia and Eastern Europe. Do you still think "they should be expelled"?
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  livelongerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  You're right - it wasn't called Israel. It was the British mandate of Palestine.
  
  As for your numbers, why did you choose 1849? What's magical about that year? Why are numbers from the 20th century irrelevant?
  
  I am aware that most of the Jewish population growth came from immigration from Eastern Europe. So what? In the early part of the 20th century, there was also immigration into Palestine from other Arab countries, mostly Egypt. Again, so what?
  
  I am not arguing for anyone to be expelled...are you?
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  Make Moneyposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I'm just trying to correct your errors livelonger. I didn't choose 1849, that's just what the book says. It also shows the numbers for 1914, 10% Jews up from 4% in 1849.
  
  And you can't deny that you did suggest the expulsion of Arabs from their homeland.
  
  No there was not Arab immigration into Palestine in the 20th century. There are Palestinian refugees in Jordon, Lebanon and Syria waiting to return to their zionist occupied lands. Yes of course, the zionists should be expelled from the occupied territories. The UN recognized a more than fair portion of Palestine for the zionists in 1947, the rest is occupied.
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  livelongerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  First, I was ridiculing the absurdity of cherry-picking a historical date and saying only those who lived in the British Mandate should be allowed to stay, and the rest should be expelled. I do not think anyone should be expelled, and to me, whether they immigrated before or after WWI or WW2 or 1875 or any other date is immaterial.
  
  As for the occupied territories, yes, I think Israel should withdraw from them, but you do realize that Hamas wants Jews expelled out of the entire Levant, right? Their beef is not only over the West Bank and Gaza.
  
  As for Arab immigration into Palestine: apparently the record is fuzzy. (Wikipedia). Whether it was 13,500 or 100,000 Arabs who immigrated into Palestine (like Yasser Arafat), I don't think it matters. I just think it's odd that the fact that Arabs immigrating into Palestine is fine, but Jewish immigration shouldn't count and the Jewish population of some arbitrary date before the waves of immigration should instead be used in order to assign ownership of the land.
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  Make Moneyposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  No that's another myth livelonger.
  From http://www.redpepper.org.uk/The-truth-about-Gaza
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  livelongerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Your source's "proof" does not dispute the fact that Hamas calls for Israel's destruction in its charter; it conveniently ignores it. The most generous concession has been a 30-year truce in exchange for the 1967 boundaries. But it has never, unlike the PLO in 1988, dropped the destruction of Israel from its charter.
  
  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/978626.stm
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  LondonGirlposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Expelled to where?
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  Make Moneyposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  To the 1947 UN mandated land of course. That was more than fair when you consider the Jewish population of Palestine in 1849 was just 4% and only up to 10% by 1914. They are going against UN resolutions by not getting out of the occupied territories.
  
  Actually when you look at the 1947 UN plan it even looks like a divide and conquer plan for the zionists. Three separated parts for the Palestinians and one solid part for the zionists.
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C. C. Riterposted 16 years ago
Man what a thread anyway. Paraglider you sure started a good one. The way I see it is that Israel is a present day gordian knot. We need another Alexander who knows how to undo an impossible knot to untie. I think we will never get one. I guess the sword is the only answer it's a sad situation for all and no winners as yet. We all are losers as it affects the whole globe.
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Ralph Deedsposted 16 years ago
This takes the cake. Olmert is bragging about how his phone call to Bush forced Condolezza Rice to change her vote on the U.N. resolution that she had helped draft! I hope Obama cuts Olmerts nuts off if he doesn't end up in jail where he belongs!

Olmert bragging about going around Rice to Bush http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/13/washi … amp;st=cse
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  ReuVeraposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I don’t know about real situation, but I support your opinion the Olmert belongs to jail and it beats me how he is still in power. He was supposed to quit long ago, for Israel sake. People of Israel despise him, believe me.
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  Ralph Deedsposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Even if true, it was very stupid, and inexcusable diplomatically, for Olmert to brag about calling Bush to rein in Secretary Condolezza Rice. I bet his indiscreet remarks didn't make Bush happy, not to mention Rice and plenty of Jews in the United States. He must be borderline mentally defective.
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  ReuVeraposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I absolutely agree.
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  Ralph Deedsposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  We can all agree on this guy!
  Click here: MP3 Player SoundClick
  
  This is hilarious! .
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  Ralph Deedsposted 16 years agoin reply to this
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  Make Moneyposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Just amazing. You give them a trillion dollars and they still dictate to your elected officials. Can you say the United States of Israel?
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Paragliderposted 16 years ago
Hamas in its make-up and rhetoric is very similar to the IRA (Irish Republican Army), with a political wing and a militia. The IRA used to call for a united Ireland and the total expulsion of the British occupiers. Many people in the US supported them with cash donations to help them buy more weapons and explosives.

Eventually, the solution wasn't military and didn't involve expulsion of peoples. It involved dropping the "we never talk to terrorists" rhetoric and starting meaningful discussions with the political wing, to come to a compromise. No other solution is ever possible.

Necessary to the solution was the replacement of the hawkish Thatcher/Reagan double act with John Major and Bill Clinton, reasonable people both. Let's hope Bush's successor has read this bit of history.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Not the plan. You do not talk to "terrorists".
  
  http://www.kugli.com/Classified_Ads/adi … ace_Dubai/
  
  Looks like Mr Obama is having to make a few changes to his promises of change.
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  livelongerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I understand the parallel, but it's an imperfect one:
  - even if the English had been expelled, they had England to return to; without Israel, Jews don't have a homeland
  - the IRA didn't target civilians; Hamas deliberately does
  - the IRA doesn't include the destruction of England in its charter, it recognizes the UK's right to exist
  - the IRA wanted political unification of the Irish state (religion not explicitly defined); Hamas relies on an ideology of establishing a Muslim religious state over the entire area
  - unlike the IRA, Hamas has never agreed to abandoned armed, violent struggle and resolve it through peaceful negotiations
  - the IRA doesn't support the denial of history or racist propaganda against the British
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  Sufidreamerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Half right, livelonger.
  
  The IRA did target civilians - apart from high profile bombings such as Warrington and Omagh, there were numerous shootings and kneecappings etc. Many of these attacks were on the mainland, but the British did not respond by invading Falls Road. Likewise, the Loyalists also targeted civilians.
  
  At the time, Eire was under a Catholic constitution, and so any unification of Ireland would have meant the Protestant minority living under Catholic based rule.
  
  It was not just about expelling the British - the loyalists had lived there for hundreds of years, Northern Ireland was their homeland. If Ireland became united and they wanted to remain British, they would have had to leave. The troubles were a lot more complex than simply 'British Out.'
  
  The point that Paraglider makes is that the IRA never agreed to abandon armed struggle - it was a neutral third party that brought this aspect about. The same approach is needed in the Middle East. This approach is also working in Cyprus.
  
  It is always going to be an imperfect comparison. No two situations can ever be the same, but negotiation is the only way. In addition, in both of the above situations, the people brought about change - they were fed up of having little future. I am pretty sure that the extremists do not speak for the vast majority of the Israeli and Palestinian populations. We received a letter from our Israeli friend recently - she is worried about her son, who is due to enter the army soon.
  
  The people in Northern Ireland forgot what they were fighting for, and the problem became a complex and intertwined web of nationalistic and religious issues.
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  Paragliderposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Everything is imperfect - that's why we seek compromise. But some of your assertions are very imperfect too -
  
  1. Most of the six counties residents had been there for generations and were in fact more Scots than English. That is why the Northern Ireland dialect is classed as a variant of Scots.
  2. The IRA most certainly did target civilians, and not just in Ireland but in England too. Letter bombs, public post box bombs, pub bombings, you name it, they did it. Central London was quite dangerous for a while.
  3. The IRA wanted 'Brits out' - ethnic cleansing of the six counties. They never expected to get it, but that was their stated aim.
  4. The IRA never agreed to abandon armed struggle UNTIL the UK started to engage in talks. The process took a long time.
  5. The IRA and the Orange Order were equally selective and wrong in their representation of fact.
  
  Another difference - setting aside old history, in living memory Britain never carried out a major assault on the IRA. Bloody Sunday was probably the low point, but it was nothing to compare with what Israel is now doing in Gaza. Israel's actions make a negotiated settlement ever less likely and almost guarantee the perpetuation of the conflict.
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  livelongerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  The occupation of Ireland by Britain also lasted about 400 years, much shorter than the 40 or so years of Palestinian lands by Israel.
  
  Sorry about the English/Scots mixup - but, in either case, the loyalists had a homeland to return to. Without Israel, Jews do not.
  
  The perpetuation of the conflict has, unfortunately, not been solely in the hands of Israel. It's clever policy that sustained, low-level antagonism by Hamas for months doesn't seem to merit the recriminations of outsiders. But yes, the ferocity of the backlash of Israel is clearly meant to communicate a message to someone. Maybe Iran.
  
  At any rate, it seems Israel is banking on an eventual negotiated settlement with Fatah, not Hamas. I doubt very much Fatah minds seeing their rival being squashed out of existence.
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livelongerposted 16 years ago
Sufidreamer: Well, I certainly hope you're right. The PLO certainly moderated its stance, and now the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank is the partner that Israel is slowly working with.

The problem still remains that Israel is the only homeland that will accept Jews that face persecution or death elsewhere in the world.
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  Sufidreamerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  No worries, livelonger - most people have long since accepted that Israel has more than earned the right to exist, through blood and sheer stubbornness.
  
  Like you, I hope that we are not having this same conversation in 15 years time! I lived in Ireland when the Good Friday agreement was signed and it was a truly wonderful time, with fear and hatred replaced by hope and dreams. Even the Omagh atrocity could not derail the process.
  
  I would love to see the Middle East experience that feeling in my lifetime.
  
  Not going to be easy, but there must always be hope.
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  countrywomenposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I also hope for a peaceful solution but why 15 years can't it be sooner.
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  Sufidreamerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  That would be very nice, CW
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Mark Knowlesposted 16 years ago
Was working in central London 1978-1981

Never would have suggested or condoned bombing the crap out of Ireland, knowing full well that the British had a big hand in creating the situation.
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  Paragliderposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  So was I, and neither would I, because so we did.
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knolyourselfposted 16 years ago
"Israel's actions make a negotiated settlement ever less likely and almost guarantee the perpetuation of the conflict." That's the deal. They want the land and not the peace, they being the zionists.
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  aka-djposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I don't agree. They had the land, legally obtained, (spoils of war, after they were attacked).
  The Gaza was given back as a peace deal. They wanted peace more than land. Even now, the plan is (appears to be) eliminating the scource of constant rocket attacks.
  Hammas has catagorically ruled out a ceasefire, or peace talks.
  Who would fare better? Palastinnians within Israeli rule, or Israeli's within Hammas rule? That should shed a somewhat different light on things (for some).
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  Make Moneyposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Israel moved their illegal zionist settlers out of Gaza in 2005 so they could make Gaza a fenced concentration camp for the Palestinians living there. Now we are witnessing an attack from land, sea and air by the fifth most powerful army on the planet against that concentration camp. Anyone that supports this action is demented.
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Make Moneyposted 16 years ago
Being of transplanted Highland Scot extraction myself I'd just like to clarify that the "Irish Scots" of the Northern Ireland plantations of the 1600s were mostly Germanic people like the English, Dutch and Germans that were planted in the lowlands of Scotland in the 1200s. Prior to the 800s the Irish and the Scots were basically the same people. Under a UN mandate the Irish of the Republic could very easily claim an indigenous land claim for Northern Ireland just the same way as any other indigenous people around the world if they so choose. Not trying to start a side track argument to this thread, just adding to the conversation and stating facts.
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  Paragliderposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  That's all true. I just mentioned it because it often surprises people how close N Ireland and SW Scotland dialects sound compared with the dialects of the South.
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Sufidreamerposted 16 years ago
The whole Irish problem is a lot more complex than people think. The Catholics cheered the British Army into Northern Ireland, believing that the perceived British sense of fair-play would prevail.

Sadly, they were mistaken.
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  Paragliderposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  All territorial 'problems' the world over are complex. That is why the only solution is pragmatic - talking your way forward from chaos to order.
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Make Moneyposted 16 years ago
You are very well read Paraglider. It's a pleasure knowing you.
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Mishaposted 16 years ago
I would suggest to Vera, ASU, Livelonger and others who think that Israel is doing the just thing in Gaza to go read this hub http://hubpages.com/hub/Witness-to-a-Massacre
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  livelongerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Why do you think that I think Israel is doing the just thing? Because I disagreed with you in an earlier thread?
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  ReuVeraposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I’ve never said either anything about Israel doing a just thing. My point is that Israel is doing what Israel is forced to do.
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  livelongerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Just to be clear - I don't believe Israel was forced to do this. It chose to make the response severe enough to send a message, maybe to punish Gazans for voting in Hamas - I don't know. But there are far too many civilians being killed for this to be a proportionate response to Hamas's provocations. But Israel will continue to overreact when it feels like it is on the verge of extinction. (Let's try not to forget what Iran has been saying and doing over the past few years)
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  Paragliderposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Livelonger -
  Iran - some nuclear energy research technology - no nuclear warheads
  Israel - a nuclear power - best estimate 150 to 200 nuclear warheads
  
  Of these 150, how many do you think might be used against Iran if it begins to look that they might be on the point of manufacturing one viable weapon?
  
  On the verge of extinction?? From Iran???
  
  (p.s. - MakeMoney, thank you for that comment)
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  livelongerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  When you have a religious-based government that isn't concerned with practical realities and compromise, but in a divinely-inspired caliphate, then yes, there's reason to be concerned that Iran (or Hamas) would be willing to sacrifice their own populations' safety to achieve their goals. In fact, it's not hard to argue that Hamas has already done that.
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  Mishaposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Reading that I thought you were talking about Israel. It appeared I was wrong, but this is a revealing misread - there is no real difference between the two in that sense...
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  livelongerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  AFAIK, the government's ruling party (Kadima) is not religious-based, it is secular. If it were religious in the same way that Hamas is, its goal would be the establishment of a greater Israel that spills considerably into Jordan and Egypt, that makes no room whatsoever for a Palestinian state.
  
  Practical realities and compromise - that means it recognizes the other side's right to exist. You're going to have a tough time understanding the Israeli government as being fundamentally the same as Hamas, unless you're seriously misinformed.
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  Mishaposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Well, I was not too precise I think. It is definitely not that religious as Iran government (you were not talking about Hamas there). However, it acts as it isn't concerned with practical realities and compromise, at least lately. In that sense I do not see big difference, one even may think the Iranian government concerns itself with reality more than Israeli one...
  
  As for other hot spots on the globe - I think the reason for lower international attention is they don't pretend to belong to "civilized" countries, so nobody expects civilized behavior from them.
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Everyone pretends to belong to civilised countries. International attention is only on Israel and Palestine... or even smaller countries with around a million population. "International" do not confine to a few countries. It is their mistake if they avoid attention on other areas. But if and when another upheaval comes to the world, the correct standings of all countries will be enlightened. Some will walk with the cake; some will walk with a bowl. Until then, the present setup will keep boasting about themselves.
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  livelongerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  How so?
  
  I don't think that's the reason at all.
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  Mishaposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Umm, I thought this whole thread was devoted to "how so". Can re-iterate of course - instead of trying to dampen guerrilla activity with negotiations, Israeli government chose to create more enemies by assault on civilians - does not look like a concern with practical realities and compromise. Iran on the other hand does not engage in any military activity against Israel, understanding all well that the current balance of power is not in Iran's favor - which looks like a realistic behavior.
  
  What do you think is the reason then?
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  livelongerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry, my "how so" was about how Iran is more concerned with practical realities/compromise than Israel is. When you put it that way, Iran definitely is at least in touch with reality enough to not launch an attack. However, it doesn't recognize Israel's right to exist, and somehow imagines a scenario where Israel is destroyed (Israel, on the other hand, imagines that a Palestinian state could be formed if it weren't so antagonistic to Israel's existence).
  
  A combination of:
  - lingering anti-Semitism among populations that have disliked/hated Jews for centuries (these are the types that invariably talk about "Jewish bankers" and similar conspiracies when talking about Israel)
  - European guilt over the Holocaust, and the need to feel some sort of redemption by painting the descendants of their anscestors' victims as bad as they were
  - extraordinary sensitivity towards the "holy land" by Muslims and Christians
  - a need to sympathize with Arabs because of guilt (over their mistreatment), because they control so many petroleum resources, or because they fear violent reprisals
  - thinking it's a big deal because all of the above groups think it's a big deal, and a subconscious tendency to follow the crowd
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  Mishaposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I think you forgot one more reason, that seems to be more powerful than all your combined, may be except for antisemitism - Israelis (and diaspora) made a big deal out of it for more than half a century already, and everybody got used to the fact that Middle East matters are a big deal. Now it backfired
  Also, not sure about European guilt being manifested in such a perverted way, but won't argue over this, cause I just don't know.
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  Mishaposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I wouldn't think that this is a real reason. Of course we don't know their motives, but they are not really cornered. Even if we don't touch on nuclear weapons, they still have an enormous official monetary and military support from USA, and don't forget about quite a few rich and influential Jewish families all over the World that no doubt provide both financial and even more importantly political support unofficially.
  
  So, frankly, I do not see any reason for Israeli government to feel on the verge of extinction. Some less informed Israeli people definitely may feel that way, but not the government.
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  livelongerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not sure you and I are talking about the same things anymore. Money does not buy you a protective shield from a nuclear attack.
  
  Well, you're entitled to your opinion. But I suspect nonchalant sentiments like these are routinely ignored by Israelis as "just not getting it."
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  Mishaposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I don't really understand why you keep returning to nuclear weapons. To the best of my knowledge the only country in the region which possesses them is Israel. So what shield you are talking about? From Israelis nuking Israel? I think they are smarter than that.
  
  Well, my sentiment is all but nonchalant, not sure what prompted you to think it is. In fact the topic is pretty painful to me, cause I used to be absolutely one-sided on this, and now I am in the process of re-defining my views as we speak. And it is very personal - my former wife was a Jew, and at some point we almost emigrated to Israel, her sister's family lives there, and I know quite a few people from there. Far from indifferent, trust me on this.
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  livelongerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, but Israel recognizes its neighbors' right to exist and it is impossible to imagine a scenario where they would deploy nuclear weapons in order to wipe out the existence of a neighbor they don't think should exist at all. That's not the case at all with Iran, which continues to try to procure nuclear technology, despite sitting on one of the largest oil reserves in the world; you're right, though, that they clearly don't have nuclear capabilities...yet.
  
  Sorry, I didn't mean at all that you were indifferent to this matter. I meant very specifically that you expressed a certain nonchalance about the real threat that governments like Hamas and Iran's posed to Israel's existence, like "I don't see what the big deal is." I lived in Israel for a short time and have known quite a few Israelis, and I'm saying that sentiments like those are routinely met with a shake of the head and "well, you don't/can't understand."
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  Mishaposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I should have misread you then, sorry.
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  livelongerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I always try to understand why things happen. It is clear from me that, given their not-too-distant history, the fact that a half-billion people surrounding them want them out (or to kill them), and that the world (outside the US) is disproportionately critical of them, that Israelis feel backed into a corner and are pretty fearful. You have to remember that Jews have a long history of being nearly wiped out again and again. They don't want to face another Holocaust while the rest of the world twiddles its thumbs and turns away.
  
  Israeli violent responses like the one we're seeing will not go away until that oppressive sense of the world taking sides against them goes away.
  
  We saw the US react out of fear in 2003 against Iraq, but at least the US is big and powerful enough for that existential fear to eventually dissipate (even though most of the world continues to hate it).
  
  Israel is tiny and has a lot to worry about when it comes to its continued survival. I'm not excusing its attacks that have killed so many innocent people to punish Hamas. I'm trying to understand why it's done so.
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  ReuVeraposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I took a look. Lots of disturbing pictures and heart breaking testimonies. If one takes an effort one can compose the same hub with the difference that Israeli victims will be telling their stories. It will be endless. I can give a link here to another hub, pro-Israel, and then you’ll give one more link. Don’t you think that this way it will never end, like in a quarrel of two house wives? Each will find something to answer back.
  
  http://sderot.aish.com/SderotPetitions/15Seconds.php
  http://www.terrorismawareness.org/what-really-happened/
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQSfeNkJgBI
  
  Instead of being a blind supporter or a blind accuser may be it will be better if one just thinks?
  Gaza was always a sore point in that region. In 1948 it went to Egypt according to land distribution. In The Six day War when Israel was forced to self-defend itself against several Arab countries, Israel captured lands from Egypt. Later when Israel and Egypt established peace, Israel returned Sinai to Egypt but Egypt didn’t want to accept Gaza back, by no means. “You keep Gaza”, they said. No Arab country wants to do anything with Gaza which became a home of terrorists. No Arab country openly sounded their support to Hamas in this conflict (besides Iran which is bankrolling Hamas).
  After Hamas took over control in Gaza things were only worsening. Why you do not want to see that Hamas terrorist are causing even more damage to Gaza civilians than Fatah was doing.
  The war that not Israel initiated is going as any war would go, with casualties from both sides. There is no war invented yet without deaths. Gaza casualties are mostly terrorists, why people can’t understand it? Civilians are used by Hamas as a live shield, how is Israel able to help it?
  There were mistakes and Israel admits them. There was even friendly fire, when Israeli soldiers were killed by Israeli fire. A la guerre comme a la guerre... Sad, very sad, but this is how it is.
  Most likely Israel will quit first, but not because of international pressure. As a matter of fact this time there was no really international pressure. Israel achieved some of its goals by eliminating some of Hamas leaders and destroying its military power to a big extend. Israel didn’t get Gilad Shalid back, an Israeli soldier who was kidnapped in last Lebanon war and is kept hostage in Gaza.
  Unfortunately, Hamas will recover as dragon’s heads, since dragon itself was not eliminated...
  Americans, do we remember this? Did it teach us anything?- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrM0dAFsZ8k
  
  As Golda Meir said once, “We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children. We cannot forgive them for forcing us to kill their children. We will only have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us.”
  http://northernva.typepad.com/rubicon3/ … -hate.html
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  Make Moneyposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  What a sick vile way of thinking. Do all zionists think like this? Trying to blame someone else for your war crimes.
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  Mishaposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  That's exactly what irked me immensely here Mike.
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knolyourselfposted 16 years ago
"We will only have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us.” "
General William Westmoreland after killing hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese said something to the affect: They have so little value for life they way they sacrafice themselves so.
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  ReuVeraposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  This is what I meant when I said "It will be endless. I can give a link and then you’ll give one more link. Don’t you think that this way it will never end, like in a quarrel of two house wives? Each will find something to answer back."
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knolyourselfposted 16 years ago
Agree that is the nature of the duality. The only way out - transcend.
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Make Moneyposted 16 years ago
You welcome Paraglider. Call me Mike if you like.

The news today is saying that Israel targeted another UN sponsored school in Gaza again.

Some of you may be interested in reading the discussion countrywomen and I have been having on this page http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/10470?page=6
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knolyourselfposted 16 years ago
Do believe that Israel is the only political state in the world where it is required that on be of a specific race and religion to be a citizen.
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  LondonGirlposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  About 20% of Israelis are non-Jewish. Israeli Arabs are Christian and Muslim, not Jewish.
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knolyourselfposted 16 years ago
"About 20% of Israelis are non-Jewish. Israeli Arabs are Christian and Muslim, not Jewish."
That is only because they were there before the creation of the Jewish state.
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  LondonGirlposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  So? It shows you don't have to be of a specific race or religion to be an Israeli national.
  
  In addition, Israel has the same type of immigration laws most countries have whereby a spouse etc of an Israeli national can become an Israeli citizen.
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ReuVeraposted 16 years ago
Today Israel decided on one-sided fire cease. The war is officially over.
Never the less, the same night Beer-Sheva, Ashkelon and Ashdod (my home town) got rockets from Gaza.

I am the only Israeli and the only Jewish on this forum. It explains why we see the same situation from different sides with different eyes. No matter what I say is turned against me, the same as happens in the world about Israel.
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  livelongerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  That isn't completely true (that you're the only one sympathetic to Israel in this forum, or that Israel doesn't have friends in the world). But it is true that you have a basic point when 100 times as many people can be killed in Darfur as in Israel/Palestine, with a much more muted outcry around the world. (Not to mention Rwandans...)
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  ReuVera, Some may be far from Israel, but will like your welfare. I, as an Indian have no motives in taking sides. But Israel's confidence in existance is very much astonishing. You dont care about the number of countries against you or the number of people against you. Only ensuring your existence !
  
  Israel's rescue mission on 4-7-1974 in Uganda, when nearly 100 jews were rescued from Idi Amin by Israel is certainly a historic event to be remembered forever. ("90 minutes at Entebbe"). Your first defence minister Moshe Dayan was said to have continued fighting even after losing one eye in the battle field. How many brave-hearts are there in history? You can count easily.
  
  You never seek sympathy from others, showing video footings about people wounded in enemy bombings, as Palestinians do.. But it is better to avoid bombings in Palestinian areas.
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  Paragliderposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  ReuVera - Israeli forces are still in Gaza. The borders are not open. The caged Palestinians still have no hope and no future. The 'war' has further destroyed their infrastructure and killed 1200 of their people, many children and noncombatants among them. Why do you believe that the mass killers have the authority to declare the war over? Did they hold talks with Hamas?
  
  Please stop making this personal. I (and many others) have stated publicly that I do not support Hamas. I don't think there is a single pro-Hamas writer in this forum. But still less do I support mass murder. That is not turning your words against you. You and I are of no importance when the facts speak for themselves.
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  ReuVeraposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I am not making it personal, it is personal for me. My house is there, my family lives there for 8 years under “Color Red” siren. They have 15 seconds in Sderot, 25 seconds in Ashkelon and 35 seconds in Ashdod to get into the shelter. Gaza people have much more time to take a shelter if it were their choice. I told you that Israel makes announcements enough time before they point bombing at places of military interest.
  You and others keep saying that you do not support Hamas. Of course you don’t, I have no doubt in this. You sympathize with Palestinian people, that’s right. I do too. Then how you do not see that it is Hamas who makes Palestinians people victims. Gaza is a big heavily populated city stuffed with weapon storages under civilians’ houses, under schools and mosques.
  Hamas overtook power in Gaza stripe by overthrowing Mahmud Abbas (Abu Mazen) and then made people elect them officially. Palestinians are afraid of Hamas even more than they are afraid of Fatah. (Off-topic, about being a legally elected government, as you know, Hitler came to power through elections too.)
  In 2005 Israel withdrawn its Army from Gaza and even forced Jews living there to move into Israel. Gaza got its autonomy. Autonomy should be autonomic, shouldn’t it?
  You never answered me anything when I was asking why Palestinians are waiting that others will welfare them, why they can’t work for themselves, grow their own food, build their own businesses? Israel supplied to Gaza pipes to update the old sewage system. Instead, Hamas used the pipes to make Kasams (rockets) to fire into Israel. As a result a Palestinian village was flooded by excrements in 2007. You blamed Israel. Hamas spends all money sent to Palestinians for recovering their military stock. Keep closing your eyes to this. Keep calling names to people who tell the truth. Keep calling them liars and idiots. Only time will show the real picture. I hope we all will live till then.
  I announce ceasefire and withdraw myself from this no-hope- thread. I don’t think you will regret this, as I was so inconvenient to you. Thanks to all those who see or who tried to see the real picture.
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  Make Moneyposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  You've said that a couple of times now. From the Sderot wikipedia we can read "Sderot was founded in 1951 next to the Gevim-Dorot transit camp, partly on the lands of the Arab village of Najd." So you know what you can do to avoid the rockets.
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  Vladimir Uhriposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I do not know where is your thinking, Para...
  If you would be a doctor, you would know that treatment of symptoms is not effective, let say treatment of cancer's symptoms. The root has to be treated and addressed. Mass killing is the symptoms of hate and evil. If you are not for Hamas, why you hate then Jews and why you do not talk to Hamas and explain that shelling rockets for 8 years my have a consequences. Make them understand this.
  I would not understand if my government would not respond for shelling my country with rocket for 8 years.
  Israel was hesitating before because there is pro Filistinians, I mean Palestinians movement and hating wrong people. Palestinians learned to do propaganda in Soviet Union. Why people siding terrorist? At least terrorists have this perception. It encourages them to fight as Vietnamese had encouragement from China.
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aka-djposted 16 years ago
After all the pages of posts, what have you alllearned?
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  All of us have forgotten about "how to become Vice President".
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  Paragliderposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  OK, I started this thread and here are a few things I've learned:
  1. Very few, if any, writers have supported Hamas's tactics
  2. A very small number have justified Israel's actions
  3. By a large majority, writers have condemned Israel's brutality
  4. The only people who have attempted to offer a solution have insisted on bilateral talks
  
  I have also learned details which I had not previously known with any accuracy, particularly from the dated territorial maps that Mike has posted.
  
  How about you aka - what have you learned?
  
  The Vice President issue was to demonstrate that it was/is political suicide in US to be even-handed in Middle East affairs. Palestinians never gets a mention except to call 'them' terrorists. Do you think that will change with the new leadership? The signs are at best mixed.
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  aka-djposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Unfortunately, I have had very limited time on the internet, so I haven't really read much. Just bits and pieces.
  
  I have a hunch, that for the first time ever, the US may back away from supporting Israel's government. Not sure why I feel that way, but we'll see.
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Things will not go that way.. I am sure 99%. Because, America's writ runs in the middle east through Israel only. Otherwise, they can never set their eyes on middle-east.
  (Wait for 2 more days.)
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  Paragliderposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Venugopal - I agree with you that US will not withdraw support from Israel. The best we can hope for is that they also extend recognition to Palestine and try to restart a bilateral peace process.
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  aka-djposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I didn't mean in the early days of Obama. My thoughts are a little further down the track.
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  countrywomenposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Aka-Dj- I didn't get it when you mentioned "back away from supporting Israel".
  1) If US is trying to be NEUTRAL to resolve the dispute and bring lasting peace then I personally would consider that a positive step (the perception of Pro Israel doesn't help peace talks).
  2) Or did you mean back away from always taking the same stand of supporting Israel no matter whatever they do even then I feel it would be a positive step showing that US can be OBJECTIVE in dealing with them on a case to case basis. Maybe it may also enhance the image of US that it does still have a considerable clout in controlling Israel whenever they may go out of control.
  
  No matter what the stand of US is going to be but in the long run US does understand Israel's right to exist and will never weer away from that basic position. Let's wait and watch how Obama deals with this situation before prejudging him one way or another.
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knolyourselfposted 16 years ago
Will have to break the rule. I am a Hamas supporter.
Believe it was Howard Dean who called for a more balanced stance
concerning the Palistinians when running for president. He was out of the race 3 weeks later. Remember the Howard Dean scream?
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  Paragliderposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Hamas is the elected government and should be recognised as such. Failure to recognise an elected government is bound to marginalise and radicalise them, forcing them to rely more on their military wing than on their political wing. As a general rule, attempts to legislate for another country merely produce resistance.
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knolyourselfposted 16 years ago
Israel destroyed the infrasturcture of Lebanon this last time, what a few years ago, the theory being the population would turn against hezbollah. The same now with Gaza and Hamas. Who is going to repair this mass destruction? Will be only be Hamas. They are a total service organization, health, education, child care, infrastructure, political organizing, reconstruction, police, defence and democratically elected. Bottom up. Top down govs like US and Israel can't stand bottom up. It threatens their existence.
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  Paragliderposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, except that they are starved of resources to do it, courtesy of the blockade.
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Uninvited Writerposted 16 years ago
And this latest attack will not change anything at all. More people will become dedicated to getting back at Israel and more terrorists will have been created. Well done.
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  countrywomenposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Although I am glad there is finally a cease fire. But still that is actually a very sad outcome. I was just following the news where about 1000 Indonesians were signed up to join Gaza.
  
  http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia- … 82336.html
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  The 1000 Indonesian mercenary is going to spread the west-Asian heat to south-east Asia... they cannot do anything against Israel. And this is the status of mind of the muslim world. They may better look into the welfare of their people's education, health and standard of living.
  I do not expect a terrorist from the muslim world... I expect a priest, a saint, a poet, a scholar, a doctor, an architect, a singer, a musician, an actor, a writer, etc., (and certainly not a terrorist) from the muslim world. Instead of spreading hatred, they may live and let others live..
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  Mishaposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  And this is from the man who called for nuking Pakistan just a few weeks ago. What a hypocrisy and double standards!
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  It was when someone mentioned that they have nukes with them and they cannot be attacked. Where have those nukes gone when American missiles hit the tribals in Swat valley of Pakistan? Is it not double standard? One cannot be advised to be patient always. For selfdefence, every action can be justified. Will Russia forgive Pakistan if they conduct a Mumbai-like raid in Moscow? Just because you are not affected, you should not justify a terrorist.
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  These are for Hamas, and other muslims in W.Asia. Pakistan's case is different. They want something from India.
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  countrywomenposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Dear Mr.Venu,
  
  Sir, I think you may have misunderstood my statement. I meant that the present action has created a further backlash which isn't conducive for lasting peace in West Asia. And I also would like to add that those people who signed up maybe "peace loving" too. Sometimes when people feel deeply hurt then their outpourings shouldn't make them extremists or as you labeled them as "terrorist". There are nice people among Muslims too and as you yourself witnessed that when your father passed away recently (sorry to bring this up if it has hurt you). Yes I totally agree with you that we all should practice that "live and let live" philosophy
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Make Moneyposted 16 years ago
From http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ja … re-fragile
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  Vladimir Uhriposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  It is really funny. Hamas send Katusha soviet made rocket to Israel for 8 years and Israel should reward them to be humanistic and send money to Gaza to buy new rockets from Russians. You humanitarians are funny and naive.
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  Paragliderposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Having starved and killed the people and destroyed the infrastructure, by any standards Israel owes Palestine a great deal. We all know they will not help in any way. But it's cheering to see that you find the situation amusing. Really funny?? Idiot.
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  Ralph Deedsposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Yes Vladimir has a curious sense of humor!
  
  Predictable given his background--refugee from former USSR communist state, underground Christian, phyisican, frequent constituents of right-wingers.
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  ReuVeraposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  It doesn’t give you any honor, calling names to a person you don’t even know. You don’t have a slightest idea how educated and respectful Vladimir is. You owe him apology for personally insulting him by swearing on him. First of all, you didn’t understand his words at all. I think that Vladimir wanted to say that your arguments and reasoning were funny, not the situation itself.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Better to bomb them huh? Lots of honor in that.............
  
  Especially from a distance. How very brave you are. You must be very proud........
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  pylos26posted 16 years agoin reply to this
  How could a spreader of malicious lies possible know of honor?
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  Paragliderposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Let him defend himself. He said something crass and I called him on it.
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knolyourselfposted 16 years ago
Pro/con ad infinitum: "Palestinians are waiting that others will welfare them, why they can’t work for themselves, grow their own food, build their own businesses?"
Ever hear of the economic blockade put on Gaza, for the last year? Make something to sell, how you going to get it out Gaza, past the sea blockade. Israel has the whole coast line, the Palestinians have Gaza, blocked from the West Bank. The Israelis like the US hate Hamas and Hezbollah because they can't buy them.
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Make Moneyposted 16 years ago
Open Letter to President Obama by US Academics

Lasting solution: single state in Israel/Palestine, committed to civil & human rights of all peoples within its boundaries

This is how it starts. It's definitely worth reading the whole letter.
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knolyourselfposted 16 years ago
The state of Israel is for jews only. They will never change voluntarily.
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Paragliderposted 16 years ago
That's a good letter. Thanks for the link.
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Make Moneyposted 16 years ago
You are welcome Paraglider. Too bad it's not a petition. It looks like some Israeli Jews are thinking one state would be the solution too. I posted this on the first page of this thread.

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livelongerposted 16 years ago
"Israel Shamir" - I put his name in quotes for a reason:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Shamir

He's not Israeli, and not Jewish, either.

David Duke, "Israel Shamir"....anyone else you want to quote?
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  Make Moneyposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Okay, I see. I figured I'd post it here seeing he is basically suggesting the same thing as the 900 US Academics. He may be in contact with David Duke if you can believe what the wikipedia says but he also is saying a lot of the same things that the True Torah Jews say.
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knolyourselfposted 16 years ago
"Almost certainly, the only hope of a lasting solution is a single state in Israel/Palestine, committed to the civil and human rights of all peoples within its boundaries, irrespective of religion or ethnicity. That is, after all, the standard to which we hold all other states in the world, Israel alone excepted."
Ok let's put it like this: Palestine is already a single state, as Israel and the occupied territories, or a single Israeli state. Israel continues to displace Palestinians destroy their crops and create new settlements for Jews only. There is no single state solution.
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knolyourselfposted 16 years ago
In my experience the anti-jew stuff was because jews were progressive, and do what necessary to get ahead. Nearly everyone is progressive now. But in those days most people were conservative, meaning they would not change their character for an end.
"Jewish bankers" Bernie Madeoff. Some connection might get made.
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Teresa McGurkposted 16 years ago
Well. I just read this thread from start to finish. Not that I'm expecting a prize; I just wanted to throw in my support for Paraglider, for having raised the topic in the first place, and out of respect for all of you who have contributed since. I've looked at many of the posted links, too -- and thought about all the research some of you have done into historical events, political shortcomings, paramilitary exigencies, and humanitarian crises.

Like ReuVera, I hesitated before entering this forum, but for a different reason. (Although, like ReuVera, I've been close to the effects of terrorism -- when I lived in Belfast, but I don't suppose there's really any comparison). The complications that arise when geography and politics and religion try to coexist are insurmountable. And the area in question has plenty of proof of that.

The open letter to Barack Obama is worth reading in full -- Open Letter -- thanks to MM for posting it.

And what else have I learned from all this reading?

Concentrating on history does not help.

Concentrating on the ineffectiveness of the UN does not help.

Concentrating on America's (appalling, frankly) support of Israel does not help.

Concentrating on blaming either side does not help.

(And the Bible is not a source of help, either.)

I agree with SufiDreamer and with Paraglider -- the only way out of this is if the unthinkable happens, and talks take place. Sufi mentioned Adams and Paisley sitting at the same table -- unthinkable twenty years ago. But it happened. It is possible for human beings to talk, and for differences to be openly discussed. If it is possible for apartheid to be abolished, for the Berlin Wall to come down, for Peace talks to succeed in Northern Ireland, then it should be possible. It is as simple (and as simplistic?) as that.

Is it simplistic to imagine that a) the US will stop its absolute support of Israel and b) that any rapprochement is possible where so many lives have been so recently lost? Doubtful.
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Paragliderposted 16 years ago
Teresa - welcome to the discussion. Unlike the other thread "Israel", this thread was started long before the recent Israeli incursion into Gaza and as such is an interesting study in the different reactions towards situational and critical scenarios.

In my view, the main problem with any two-state solution is the issue of Jerusalem itself - who gets it? America and Israel would insist that Jerusalem remain as the heart of a Jewish state. But this scenario will always need to be defended by high walls which (compare Germany) work badly and only for a time. Inevitably, they have to come down.

Dividing the city (like Berlin or Belfast) is the worst of all. Surely nobody wants to go there?

So, in spite of the enormous difficulty, I think the only possible longterm solution is the single state, sharing the great city and the land. This, after all, is the modern secular government model, and the only model that ever works where many peoples of different faiths and ethnicities are gathered in one place.
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  aka-djposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Interesting you should bring this up, re Jerusalem. Here's a prophecy by Zecheriah (O/T)
  
  Zec 12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
  Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
  
  You may not agree with it (God and all that), but He actully claims it to be His city. I presume you have read in the Revelation about the "Heavenly Jerusalem" etc. If not, it's fascinating reading.
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  livelongerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Except for the Old City (tiny), the city is already divided. West Jerusalem is Israeli, East Jerusalem is Palestinian. I'd imagine the Old City should be governed by the UN since that would be harder to split (but it could be - Jewish & Armenian quarter, for instance, to Israel, the Muslim & Christian quarters to Palestine.
  
  For the life of me, I fail to see how this city is a stumbling block to peace. The problem with Berlin and Belfast was that they were divided cities floating in the territory of one of the other states (East Germany and Northern Ireland). Jerusalem is right between Israeli and Palestinian territory - it doesn't need to be unified.
  
  Yes, maybe long-term. Very, very long-term. In the meantime, Palestinians openly flout their hatred of Israel and Jews, and Jews are paranoid that they'll be killed off or forced to move again. In the meantime, it might be helpful to the situation to have well-meaning people demonstrate that they understand the basic needs and fears of both sides, and press for a 2-state solution.
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  BDazzlerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  The irony of this statment is that the name "Jerusalem" means "to spread peace". Depending on the Scholars you read, it means "Rain Of Peace" ...
  
  It seems to have always had this irony.
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Teresa McGurkposted 16 years ago
Politically -- unification (while allowing individual states local governance) is sound. It has worked in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, the United States of America. (Having said that, can we all hear the howls of the Scots at British subjugation?) Unification is sound although it is seen by many of its constituent parts as being repressive and unrepresentative. Usually because it is initially repressive and unrepresentative. In the long run? Well, let's think -- would you like fries with that, sir?

On a humanitarian level, if unification means tearing down all the walls that separate people from food, medical supplies, aid, work, and family, then give me a sledge hammer and stand back -- y'all can worry about the politics later, after we've shared some basic human rights around the area.

Religiously -- doesn't count in this equation. Jerusalem bears the burden of being a holy place for three different religions. Religion can transcend physical bounds, so it isn't an issue. If people try to make it an issue, well -- they're not being very religious.
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Paragliderposted 16 years ago
Tersesa - walls never have and never can work, not least because they make prisoners of both sides. I'm right there with you and your sledge hammer.

Aka-dj - I don't think 'He' claims anything at all. Men who wrote an old book made claims on his behalf. You are welcome to believe what you like but please, for the sake of your own humanity, don't promulgate garbage about people being cut in pieces. We've seen enough of that. Any 'god' that favours such barbarity is well worth consigning to the dustbin of history. It's time to move on. And yes, I've read Revelation. It would have been anathema to your professed saviour. Drop it too.

Livelonger - {{Except for the Old City (tiny), the city is already divided. West Jerusalem is Israeli, East Jerusalem is Palestinian.}}
Yes I know, but do you think this is working well? Also the separation of the West Bank from Gaza can't work. Any two-state solution has to have sensible borders. But I strongly believe that there is no lasting solution that involves a divided Jerusalem.
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