It is a fact that (if) being gay is a sin, it is no greater a sin than fornication.
I myself feel no right to judge anyone being gay especially when they are truly in love-
I'm a bit perplexed because-
It's wrong to judge and 'let the first one without sin case the first stone' - no one here could-
Is it ok with my God to promote it? or Is it ok with my God to acknowledge it?
Personally I have no opinion or bias in retrospect so why do I have to 'ask' God if I can say my opinon?
I don't think gay marriage is evil. 'Love is between the ears and not the legs.'
I guess my question is to those who are 'religious' or Christians or whatever:
Why is being gay such a big deal?
BTW if what the Westboro church upsets anyone, note that Jesus was more against self-righteousness than anything, a whole chapter was devoted to that.. I wish those people would just read their bibles than pretend to believe in Jesus. Also Jesus said it would be better for soddom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for the Pharisees.. So basically if you are Christian and you piss on gays, it's not helping you, it's hurting.. Just a sideways FYI, to help the gay people out, sort of a strange approach I know, but I've got gay friends too.. Probably not as sensitive as I could be.. I personally am a sexfreak, so I'd probably not make it into heaven, but serriously I don't think anyone would make it into heaven, we all have problems and failings. I think it is better to do what Jesus said in the nutshell gospel: "love others as you would love yourself, and love god with all your heart". What this means really is: love others (don't judge them, don't treat them like dirt if you think they need that, love, what did Jesus say about love, define love?) and to love god, is to love good.. To know what is good and to do good. So if you know how to treat people well, you are likely already loving god.. The bible outlines what is good, but it's pretty intuitive aside from things like "loving others gods and such".. That stuff is mostly about "don't be superstitious", don't think that just because things are bad now, it was something you did.. The devil is who you blame for bad stuff, not people, the devil. not god, the devil.. If you think that there is evil in the world, yes there is, it's the devils fault.. Pretty easy stuff.. I'm not talking to the atheists or others who don't believe in Christ, I'm talking to Christians here..
Also from the liberal slant, I think the real problem now is watching too much damn TV, it's a mind control device.. Just be careful what you watch, much of it is junk food, there to keep you watching and selling ads, the news stations such as Fox will change their tune if their market changes, they pander to the audience because they get paid by advertisers, so as long as you are watching, they are making money.. So what you get is not news, it's info-tainment.. You can pretty much tell when it occurs, just ask yourself every 5 minutes if the information that is being delivered is collected from "in the field" reporting and if it is "new" and is collected from random sources, and is fresh, if not, it's entertainment.. Mostly what you see on cable news is "speculators who gossip about crap they don't know, in hopes that you will think what they want you to think" but mostly just to keep you watching, take in the ads, identify brands to inform your future purchasing decisions, because brand recogntion translates to approval when you have to make a purchasing decision.. That's why it doesn't necessarily matter what the advertisers are showing, all they need is to have their brand recognized, and they got ya.
BTW check out these documentaries:
I'll tell you what the conservatives are against, it is basically that they think if they let Gay Marriage get by then there will be other things they don't agree with getting by.. Look 'serve's, if America gets screwed up, move somewhere else, isn't that what the Essenes did? If America goes to hell because of what you think is sin, leave, and it will become apparent, but don't force people to think what you think.. It won't work.. Only through treating people well will you get anywhere..
It was from a ray vander laan series I learned this from I think, but I don't recall which one.. Ray's cool.. Informative stuff..
Sorry for the added replies.. I personally think that marriage or something like that for gays would be okay, the alternative is having relationships that might become destructive. I had a cousin who was killed by her lover, I think if gay marriage was more accepted then she might have had more of a choice of lovers and might be alive today.
I know a boy who was sexual abused as a child, brought up in a very Christian family.. How Christian? His foster mother is the sister of Ken Young (aka Founder of Hallal).. And this boy after having being put through all sorts of programs is still gay, and married to a gay man, and he is happy.. I can't imagine how his family feels, I know his father tried hard to keep him out of gay relationships.. But if it was hard for them to control that behavior, I think it's unlikely Christians will be able to change it..
Keep in mind though that HIV passes best through anal sex, and is why it is so common among the gay community. I personally think the safest sex is no sex, masturbation. Anyone can get STD's, and you don't even have to have sex. Example given: you can get herpes by sharing tooth brushes.. HIV is actually much harder, I 've heard, to contract.. It's said to be very rare but the phobia that surrounds it is strong because the consequences are great.. But the way I think about that stuff is its just a modern day leprosy, but leprosy was so much worse and in Jesus day it happened to everyone regardless of their sin. Christians are told to blame the devil.. Disease happens..
Being gay is NOTa sin since sin is man made. Claiming homosexualality is a sin is a cop-out for admitting bigotry. Doesn't matter if it's printed in some worthless religious book, it's still bigotry. I take that back, religious books such as the Bible are not totally worthless, they make great fire starters.
Being gay according to the bible is not a sin.. And the bible is kinda sketchy about the act of being gay in bed, it says you are not to lay with someone of the same sex (I think).. But then there is that old testament story about soddom and gamorah (but the message is if you are the holy spirit, stay out of gammorah, there are evil people there, joke)..
But the old testament I write off as really about how tough it is to please God without Jesus, so its really pretty irrelevant since Christians aren't bound by the old law, it's just there to say that "you can't get to heaven by keeping a law".. You can't buy a stairway to heaven.. LOL..
Anyhow it proves that people are incapable of keeping a law, which would say that even our own legal system is bound to fail because we are all imperfect, how many people run red lights? If to get in good with God was not to break any american laws in the constitution or otherwise and such, we'd all fail.. It makes me wonder why conservatives think they are closer to the original America because they push for the way things were..
Things change, laws change, you can't return to yesterday, people change their perception of what is "evil".. We eat tomatoes now, we listen to Jazz, things that 100 years ago might have been considered evil. There is a cool documentary about Paris in the early 1900s and how the drive for religious perfection drove a lot of people to Paris to live a life of sin.. It was also where Jazz musicians were driven to live and play, and also a place rich people flocked.. Then it got to be too popular and the sinners left Paris because there were too many Tourists..
Anyhow.. The conservative Christians of now... Yes there are liberal ones.. I think the serves are Just a bunch of old people dragging their feet, failing to realize that there is 100 Christian sects that don't agree.. Major fail for them.. Meanwhile in the Atheist camp they are looking for the way to make gene modifications.. I think that will be the next major human race failure.. But people were given free will, were they not? Let's see where that sin leads,
I think I recall in a sermon someone saying the world is like a spectacle to the angels, we are on God's TV, and the days are filled with reruns of human failure, because sin is in the world, but it is all very fascinating, just imagine Angels really know everything about God and are not permitted to have free will, the one who turned its back on God, is the one that justified this whole free will experiment, the Devil.. All of time, everything we are experiencing, is just to see what sin does.. What we are experiencing is that idea playing out.. Well that's the Christian idea..
Disturbing I know, but just think how disturbing life is without an explanation.. It's good to have one if you are looking for one.
Otherwise you might just go insane.. However I think those who really just don't step back from the painting to see what life is and that they have a free will and such, really just would go insane either way.. Just sleep on it.. If it makes you feel better and do good, do it.. Otherwise, life is too short to spend everyday stressing about anything, Christians should recall what is like to be persecuted, recall what the romans used to do to Christians? I seem to recall that Christians did similar things during the crusades.. Every religion has permitted man to justify evil, the evil there is justification beyond self-righteousness, if you think you are above the law, soon you start drinking your own koolade and then you start making everyone else drink it.. Soon everyone is dead because the koolade was tained with imperfections you could not foresee.. There are times when Jesus would say things to the apostles like "go here, get this colt from this guy, or go down to the lake there will be a coin in this fish's mouth, and so on, nobody can have such faith as to expect that things will be there for them.." I think that when Jesus says "faith moves mountains" I think he really means "faith moves you past the mountains, so philosophically you moved that mountain from here to there". Nobody has such faith as to move mountains, only Jesus did. But faith will move you beyond the landscape that seems inescapable. It's like " The city where you live, the people who persecute you, you have the ability to move beyond them, and the driver's name is faith, get in the taxi cab and ride away".
Any major dude will tell you my friend, any 'mount of world breaks apart falls together again, when the demon is at your door, in the morning it won't be there no more, any major dude will tell you - Steely Dan
Trivia "Steely Dan" is a euphemism for "Dildo".. Maybe Donald Fagan and David Becker thought of the ultimate orgasm of a band would be a different band for every song, it's band was part myth, not one band but a bunch of different bands. Can you imagine trying to be a musician at the time, hoping to compare with this fantastic group only to realize that it was pure analog production magic? We know now the story..
Naw I know I'm incorrect about Steely Dan, they started that studio experimental stuff after Pretzel Logic which is the album "Any Major Dude" came from.
I think I have a disease that causes me to quote things as if I've become world famous and quoting things make them even more grandiose and such.. Argh.. It's just emphasis..
Oh another falsity, the Devil is a he? Nope, the devil is an it.. The Devil has no genitals, nor do the Angels, nor does god.. There is no he or she when it steps beyond the Human race, you simply refer to their names.. Which is precisely how many homosexual people prefer to be referred to.. Not as he or she or it, but "Tom" , "Mary" or "Fruit Loop Unit" or "Blue Boy Wonder".. Free to be who you want people.. Technically though God is not to be referred to as God or by any name for fear that God might lose emphasis.. So blasphemy saying things like "God" with the word "damn", essentially dumbs down God.. I mean its easy, its human to not consider all creation and use the word God, but I think God would prefer that we think about all creation before uttering the word God..
Okay now for something completely different.. Christians this is what you are driving gay people to do.. Pretty soon you won't be able to tell who is or who isn't Gay.. I think this is ultimately what happens with all this persecution.. I know this all looks silly, but acceptance can drive someone to do anything to be seen the way they see themselves.
Here is an interesting documentary about Gender Bending....
I think marriage in the christian upbringing and from where our culture borrowed a lot of the ritual from, is defined as being strictly between a man and a woman, but it says in the bible if you can avoid being tempted (into sex) with another, it is better than being married to be alone. It also says for eunuchs, and gay people get sort of clustered together with Eunuchs, that it's not easy to accept marriage so one should become in a sense married to Christ.. But that's the Christian philosophy.. I'm approximating this as I don't really read the bible.. Reading puts me to sleep, I've never completed a novel, I remember everything by concept.. If you want to know absolutely, "seek and ye shall find".. Me I'm sticking to the nutshell gospel, its enough for me. I don't know if a gay marriage would have the same strength of a traditional marriage between man and woman, but I would argue that these days traditional marriage has had less strength and I think it would be a great challenge if by permitting gay marriage it would setup a competition with those who are in traditional marriages to out-commit those in gay marriages.. You know, like see how long you can stay together before failing.. I think if there was monogamy in gay relationships it would probably put an end to a number of STD's that are spread through non-monogamous relationships. Of course the heterosexual people would be challenged by "hey you think you want to get a divorce, look at our gay friends they have been married for 20 years are we so weak to give up now?".. I see a purpose for mainstream secular culture, it's there to determine if we really think we are all that much better being Christians, and sort of challenges us to stick it out.. If there is no point of reference, how do you know you are making progress?
Okay I know its not good to compare yourself to others, but we do it nonetheless, and it doesn't hurt to fail as a culture once and a while, it reminds us why we have the values in place that we do, and a reason for believing what we should. If we say "stay away from gay marriage you will go to hell", is it not like the apostles who were afraid of the lake.. Yay though I walk through the valley of death I shall fear no evil. And yet people are fearing it anyhow.. ARgh! There are other solutions to such problems, as I said before.. Leave Christians leave if you can't take the heat? We've got these Amish people that are doing quite well off by themselves.. I don't think we have a chance of comparing to the Amish, they should be inspiration for Christians.. Changing the culture and the people we come in contact with won't get it fixed.. Sin is in the world and we just walk around it.. Someone wants to marry someone of the same sex, just walk around it, it's not something to fear.. Oh ya, for deacons, at least this is true, public displays of affection, major no no, every Christian should be like sister and brother, even if they are married.
I think what is bigger a problem is seducing others out of loving relationships with their spouses.. Adultery.. Me personally I don't see a problem with things like porn, just so long as I'm not ruining someone's marriage.. Of course, I ruin my chance for a relationship.. But I've tried being in a relationship, it's tough stuff.. Not for me.. But you won't find me going looking for women to seduce, because for me at least, it's not as gratifying, I have social problems that prevent me from carrying on a conversation with someone, I'm boring as hell, I think if I married someone who doesn't speak the same language, like some french hotty, and she didn't care, I that would work for me. We'd use sign language to communicate, hows that? There is something to be said about seeking pleasure, I find that the more pleasure I seek, when there is an absense of pleasure, I seek pleasure in other ways.. Sugar is pretty bad stuff, it drives one to over-eat. Inaction is bad, when bored I look for instant gratification.. What will it be?
I don't even know if writing here is all that productive, or if its just another vice..
"I ruin my chance for a relationship." Ive never heard it said that way before. Very insightful. (Im always sarcastic, I hope that didn't come across sarcastic cause I was being honest. lol)
I gotta go to work... take care.
I ruin my chance for a relationship because I short circuit the sexual urge, so to say. But serriously, I think there is enough children in the world, I think we've got a population problem.. If you long to be in a relationship, get a Dog, they read your facial expressions, they bring joy, and they don't complain about your looks. But if you want a challenge, get a spouse, children.. You will come to realize just how self-centered you are, and that marriage will break you of it, if you are lucky.
I'm not saying you are self-centered, I don't even know you..
It is a fact that (if) being gay is a sin, it is no greater a sin than fornication.
still a sin. forgivable of course.
So I myself feel no right to judge anyone being gay especially when they are truly in love-
humans have a type of love. God has a type of love. human love is equated to two animals rutting in a field. Gods love is not so superficial. The two types of love are very much different. Human love does not take precedent over Gods type of love. Human love is not justification its something that happens but it is not a balm that gets rid of sinfulness.
I'm a bit perplexed because-
You want to make homogenized love more important that God.
It's wrong to judge and 'let the first one without sin case the first stone' - no one here could-
There is a difference between judging and accessing; judgment and assessment. Casting the stone in the above case would be judgment, and is more than an assessment. We are called to assess all people but not to judge them, herein is the difference. It would be of tantamount hypocrisy to stone someone for something you yourself do, but not hypocrisy to assess what someone else does even if you do it too. Hope that helps.
but Is it ok with my God to promote it? or Is it ok with my God to acknowledge it? Personally I have no opinion or bias in retrospect so why do I have to 'ask' God if I can say my opinon?
I don't quite understand this... skipping to the next section
I don't think gay marriage is evil. 'Love is between the ears and not the legs.' I guess my question is to those who are 'religious' or Christians or whatever:
love is not really between the ears or the legs its a heart matter and who can assess the heart.? Just because two people kiss and have sex does not equate to love. They may even say they love each other, who are we to know, we will have to see how long that 'love' lasts. People come together for all sorts of reasons, convenience, money, they like their looks, whatever.
Why is being gay such a big deal?
Gayness is not really a big deal but it needs to be dealt with to come into alignment with Gods perfect will. On a forum people will ask about gayness and on a forum answers will happen but this is a forced scenario. In my world gayness doesn't pop up, its not an issue i am dealing with in peoples lives on a daily weekly or monthly or yearly basis, whereas others might. I deal with drug addicts commonly and others deal less with these issues - to each their own.
Back to perfect will (there is also permissive will) Perfect will aligns to much of what God wants, permissive will aligns to much less, indeed in permissive will people can live in their sin for long periods of time. In the perfect will area people have dealt with their sins and continue to walk in Gods ways. The benefits of the two vary greatly. People who do not do what God wants walk in permissive will, as will gay people, and until the time they correct this situation, their walk toward perfect will will be hindered as God needs to do much work in their lives, but perfect will pleases God, as does male and female union - obviously the way it was intended to be from the beginning and God has less to do instead of a clean up job he works more in the area of revelation and guidance.
Why did i say gayness was not such a big deal if i say it needs to be corrected? Gayness is something that God needs to deal with, and He will and does, in His time. I can discuss that being gay is an aberration of Gods intention, others will disagree, whatever. The point is that God is supposed to change people. It is not my job to change anyone. Bible bashing does not help this we know. So its not a big deal to me if someone is christian and gay but i will pray about the situation and make supplication known unto God, for my own benefit and state of heart which may enable me to deal with Gods love throughout the situation. I hope this help also.
It says in scripture about men laying down with men . It is an abomination. If the good Lord above wanted men and men and women and women. Then there would never be off spring since Adam and Eve. *gay* is the devil's work. He goes inside the hearts who have been abused or mistreated and turns them into fornicators. I don't believe it something one is "born with". This is as crazy excuse as I ever heard one. There is no reliable evidence to date that homosexual behavior is determined by a person's genes.“Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth.” Genesis 8:15-17.
Proverbs 31:10-31. And you may read “You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination” (Leviticus 18:22; see also Leviticus 20:13).
Romans 1:26-27, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
The fact that Christians pick and chose which sins are the worst (leaving out the ones they feel comfortable committing themselves) to the side. You say there is no evidence of a genetic link. You might want to read this.
http://www.nytimes.com/1991/12/17/scien … study.html
Let's get this straight. Are you saying all gay people were abused as children and God is punishing them for being abused? You think God would punish the abuser. Think for yourself much?
Are you sure there is no evidence that homosexuality doesn't have a DNA link? Have you studied DNA enough to make that statement? I've know a few sets of Gay identical twins in my day.
Are you telling us that the gay people are like animals?
In case you haven't noticed adult humans can give informed consent while animals and kids cannot and that is why bestiality and paedophilia are crimes.
PS: Well if somebody choose to select animals what is your problem, unless you are a compassionate animal lover and hate cruelty against animals? Of course there is the problem of transmitting some germs from the animals to humans, but set that aside.
I am NOT a gay, just in case. My only concern is human rights and Just like you I am not bothered what two consenting adults do in private.
Well, let me say this in response to your question. I am a rescue foster home for cats and dogs. I noticed every now and then one cat will smell the other cat's butt. I have witnessed two male cats who have been fixed, one will try to mount the other male. So, you can take this answer and decide for yourself. shall I pass the catnip or a bone? Oh, and "informed consent"?
really? Now you are sounding like Obama who thinks he can just woo me with his smile and serenating.
My question is why you want to do either? Why can't you leave the cats alone? Have you seen cows or bulls doing it? You will not even think of getting near.
And the first question, why do you think humans are like animals that need your guidance? Why don't you think, like yourself, they too can form opinions and decide for themselves?
I'm not sure when the pamphlet was handed out drawing a comparison between homosexuality and bestiality but I think it's time to retire it. Giving the LGBT community the right to marry, have children or live openly will not open the floodgates for people seeking partnership rights with their dog. It's a ridiculous comparison, for a multitude of reasons I'm not going to bother listing, so let's stop going there.
As for you being tired, I'm tired too, I think I've had just about enough of people telling me I'm doomed to spend my afterlife burning in the seventh level of hell, I'm tired of being called names, I'm tired of constantly having to feel afraid to openly be affectionate with my boyfriend, and I'm tired of being denied basic rights and freedoms many straight people have, yet abuse.
I was not abused at all as a child. I had a very happy life and I am still gay. Both my parents are still married, inherently straight and there is not one other gay person in my immediate or extended family. Where would I learn such a behaviour? I dated women and even slept with a few, not that it's any of your business, but I consistently felt more attracted to the boys in class. When I met my first boyfriend it was like I was coming alive and finally understood what all my friends were describing.
Is it written in my DNA? I think it is. There are several scientific studies stating that there is a strong possibility it could be. And to be fair, if the parent of the gay twins was gay, it could also feed into the theory of passing on the 'gay' gene to one of their children. The argument can go both ways, at least if both sides are willing to entertain the idea they are not always right.
Thanks for the advice on the water. I'm drinking it by the litre.
Rape in any form is rape and it is a crime irrespective of it is gay or bisexual and those who perpetrate such crimes should be given the maximum penalty.
But what has it got to do with being gay?
Is your own source of love and enjoyment the only form of love and enjoyment?
You were saying something was done to you, was that another of your nightmare you were elaborating, to get sympathy?
What does that exactly mean? Are you implying that we are all to be eradicated on the foundation of our orientation alone? I am truly sorry that you were raped and sodomized but that does not give you cause to wish an entire sect of the population extinction, especially when you have very little understanding of the plights of the LGBT community.
Whereas you simply take to Internet forums to spread your ignorance and hateful diatribes there are many who seek out gays and lesbians to inflict harm upon them, with many of the same beliefs you share. This what I do not understand, you call yourself a religious woman who cares for people and expects to have others care for her (or at least sympathize), but are willing to condemn someone as young as twelve or thirteen for being gay or lesbian.
I would like you to give some thought as to why a teenager would endure the torture, ridicule, physical/emotional harm and social ostracism if being gay was a choice, simply something he or shee could turn off and live the normatively? Who would choose that willingly? What kind of person would sooner take a razor blade to their wrists rather than admit to their family they were gay or lesbian?
You focus so much on what gays and lesbians are asking for and expect in 2013 rather than the important root of the issue. The political battles we are waging are for the future generation, who shouldn't be made to feel like they are an abomination: as you've so eloquently put it.
Okay I see your point. I am truly sorry if I offended anyone and I sure do NOT want someone to hurt themself because they are gay. Maybe I am homophobic? It just is a scary thing to see is all. As far as rights go. Well, never mind. God said it was an abomination. This is why I believe in what he said. I will leave it at that.
And no I don't want anyone eradicated! This would be horrible! I was just saying. Oh never mind.
God also said that eating shellfish and bacon and wearing mixed fabrics were abominations, but I don't see you holding to those laws. What gives you the right to pick and choose which laws you can condemn other people for when you don't choose to abide to similar laws yourself?
Then we will agree to disagree and go about our business ... I don't think we need to belabour the point anymore.
I had two glasses of orange juice because it is delicious.
Have a good night (or day depending on where you are).
Thanks for sharing that, very interesting information, I appreciate it
This is a good point and I agree. It is biblically wrong to judge and wrong to be gay, so how do we become right?
I am not trying to Judge. I am repeating what I know with all my heart to be the truth! There are three rules I was raised to never question.
2.) God's purpose
3.) God's laws
Out of curiosity, are you not allowed to question god(his purpose or laws), or the persons who told you there is god/his purpose/laws?
I know there is a God as sure as I know my name! The persons who told me about God, didn't have God in their lives. God was revealed to me many times in my life. He sent his spirit or Angel to protect me and guide me! I am not in jail for murder or dead because of suicide or in a mental hospital because of what *MAN* has done wrong by me. It is because of God. And for me to question the only entity who give me everything I have, including the breath in my body is unfathomable to me!
Why were you raised to never question those three rules? You don't think God would want you to ask question with the brain you think he gave you?
I was raised to believe, I would go to hell if I questioned the authority of God. He would curse me and I would die. I can't ask God a question because he is not in the earth relam for me to hear his answer.
As far as why did my parents raise me this way? I don't know. They are both gone, and I can't ask them either.
That's too bad. It really is too bad. I believe it's called extortion and is against the law.
Extortion is the practice of obtaining something, esp. money, through force or threats. Now without certain you church demands/asks for money.
Do you really think a loving God would lower himself to extortion just to get your praise?
good point! but doesn't the church and man ask for the money. there is no god asking for money is there?
right, so why are people listening to those telling them to believe or burn in hell? It appears that all the God of the NT is asking for is worship. Worship and obey and don't burn in hell. So he is asking for something isn't he? Seems like asking for worship is a bit of a character flaw if you ask me. Some would call it needy. Would you follow a human who asked for worship and said if he/she/it doesn't get worship you will burn in hell?
@85 Jo_Goldsmith - You know there's a god? You were raised not to question anything about god? So what you're saying is that you know there's a god because someone simply told you so and you accepted this without question because you're scared of going to hell - something else that someone told you and you accept that without question. Hmmmm. OK. There's a term for that, it's called brainwashing.
I have read the discussion and I hope by now you have started to question his laws, purpose, and existence. Wake up! It's time to vindicate Alexander the Great. Get over with your medieval morality that drags our society backwards while hurting a lot of people in the process.
I love my gay friends too.
Just like I love my alcoholic friends.
And my druggie friends.
And my divorced friends.
And my friends, period, whether they're right or wrong.
So does God.
I just don't love their wrong actions, nor condone it, nor intend to let them convince me that wrong is right.
Neither does God.
It's that simple.
I want to support gay rights but I just can't seem to get involved. That's why I posted this.
You know what honestly, the best thing you can do is to just know that the stereotypes aren't true.
You've seen plenty of stereotypes in this thread, pick em out and break em down.
As long as you realize that gay men aren't having sex with animals, lesbians aren't an abomination and bi-sexuals aren't "sleeping around" then that's all anyone can ask.
The biggest struggle the LGBT community faces is ignorance. With every person that doesn't believe the hype, the community is one step closer to equality.
If you remember that all people in America already have the same human/civil rights, and have had for decades now, you'll do okay.
Except for unborn babies of course. They have no rights at all. Who can hear their cries while the gay rights activists holler? I wonder if that's by design of theirs or if they really don't realize they're that self-centered?..........
I wrote a few hubs about unborn babies (pro life) I'm more passionate about it than other issues for exactly the reason you stated- they have no voice and no one to stick up for them, so I do find it important. And since science proves it's life at conception, it's a no brainer
Interesting. Where was god's pro-life stance when he was ordering the jews to "rip open women's pregnant bellies" and slaughter all of the innocent babies, infants and children repeatedly in the bible?
It's not a matter of what political stance God took or takes, because He's not a politician or political activist; He is simply God, who has the power and right to do whatever He wishes!
He is the Giver and Taker of Life, since He is the Creator of the universe including mankind.
I don't question His word in the Bible.
I only question some people these days who claim to hear some new word from Him.
so you think it's okay to slaughter men, women and even unborn children as long as god's the one that's doing it - just not when people do it. How is that moral?
God did a lot of things in the Old Testament days, to establish His chosen people's rights, to put into effect His plan for the entire world of mankind. He had the right to do whatever He wanted, knowing full well that He is in charge of not only mankind's physical status but also holds the power to do with their souls as He wishes. He is not, however, a cold uncaring God. He proved His love for mankind when He manifested in the form of Jesus Christ.
Doesn't it bother you that you are not one of his chosen people? This loving Father figure of yours has favourites and you are not one of them. The truth is I have some very good friends who are Jewish and they are great people, kind and very generous. Actually my family doctor was Jewish and he made sure I can hid among the Jews if necessary. The fact that I'm a male also helps because God certainly favours males in the OT as well. I'm set!!! You?
Doesn't bother me in the least, because indeed I am now one of His "chosen" people. I am a "whosoever"!
Whosoever believeth on Him can have eternal life. Jesus came to earth and called people to come to Him. With His sacrifice, He offered salvation to anyone who would repent and give their heart to Him. He calls everyone! But He only chooses those who show up for duty! Why would he choose those who do not?
Oh yes, I know to what you refer.
But let me tell you this--------yes, I'd be more than happy to eat the crumbs that fell from the Master's table! But get this----------the Master offered everyone much more than that, no matter whether we're born a Jew or not.
Interesting that you find my statement lacking seriousness and yet people spout off about God's chosen people the time. It's interesting how far someone has to go before someone asks if they are serious. I ask believers if they are serious all the time, but never get an answer. They trust that something written in a book is factual without question and call that faith.
The very real question was, Doesn't it bother you that you are not one of his chosen people? Doesn't anyone question a book that claims a God to have a set of favourite people? Would this be acceptable behaviour here on earth today?
I understood the question. It was the part about you having a Jewish friend that said he could hide you if necessary that I found interesting for a couple of reasons.
Okay, I do have a few Jewish close friends and my family doctor was Jewish and made sure we all looked Jewish. I could therefor pass for a Jew.
LOL but why? What would you be hiding from? And just by reading all the interaction between the non-believers and some of the believers (with all the flak), I would think they were serious in their beliefs and faith. What does a Jew look like? He made you look Jewish? Plastic surgery? No sarcasm, just asking questions from what you have said. The fact you being a non-believer, a free man, I'm assuming no enemies, not a fugitive, again, what would you have to look like a Jew for?
New International Version (NIV)
The Covenant of Circumcision
9 Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”
Powerful stuff huh. I am part of Gods Chosen people and I can prove it. It's a little embarrassing to prove though, I'll not be sending any evidence. LOL You see I can say I haven't broken the covenant because I was circumcised by a Jew within eight days of birth. Cool, but I don't recommend it.
I do like your honesty and questions, if you still don't understand keep asking.
It takes more than being circumcised by Jew to be grafted into Israel. Immersion, faith, keeping the commandments, love for the brethren, and the Walk of the Covenant (Gen.15:1-21). Nice try though. There is hope for you yet . I have enjoyed your posts since I have been with HP. You're level headed, intelligent and most of the time respectful. BTW, the Jews are not the chosen people.
Thanks, all those things I'm aware of, but I was taking about what's in the bible says, not what an actual Rabbi would say. I'm also aware that the Jews are not Gods chosen people as the Jews claim. That's just stuff they told themselves to make them feel justified by their actions. No real loving God would have favourites, just as no real loving parents would.
Remember all I said was I could hide among them.
Sorry for taking so long to respond, yesterday was my Sabbath. He does not show partiality Deut.10:17-19. Deut. 7:7-9 probably gives us the best reason for the Hebrew being called the "chosen people". Yahuah chose the nation of Israel to be the people through whom the Mashyach (Messiah) would be born. He did not need a "chosen people" to do this, but looks as if He decided to do it that way. Not being Jewish, but by talking to some I know, they feel the concept of chosenness has often been misinterpreted by non-Jews as a statement of superiority or even racism. They do not believe being a member of the "chosen people" (since they are not Hebrew anyway, although they make the claim) gives them any special talents, treatment or makes them better than anyone else. Amos 3:2 "You alone I singled out of all the families of earth. That is why I call you to account for all your iniquities" (the curses of Lev.26, Deut.28). Many modern Jews feel uncomfortable with the term "chosen people". Perhaps for similar reasons, Maimonides (a medieval Jewish philosopher) did not list it in his foundational 13 Principles of the Jewish Faith.
Strange, I think on another forum you just claimed to have conversation with God yourself. Yet you claim no one else can hear his word.
God told me he didn't have a conversation with God. Sorry but I haven't recorded it for documentation. "A claim without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - Hitchen's Razor.
I don't think I've ever claimed that no one else can hear His word!
Refer me to whatever statement you got that impression from, please, so I can explain it if needed.
My stance is that I question whatever comes out of anybody's mouth, and it's just common sense and spiritual sense to do so!
On the forum (A Facebook post) you just made the claim
"Yup, to that Creator to whom I refer. I'm very glad I can have conversations with Him!"
Then a few posts back
"I only question some people these days who claim to hear some new word from Him."
Just what do you think conversations means? Others can not hear NEW words, but you can?
Any "word" that someone puts out should be backed up by the Bible.
There is no "new" prophecy besides what's in the Bible.
For instance, if someone says to me that such and such a specific thing is gonna happen at some particular time, and if that's not confirmed by what the Bible says, then it's all just fluff or fraud or subject to questioning.
Christians can encourage one another, and they can edify one another, and they can help and encourage sinners to hopefully lead them to the Lord, but they can't rightly predict or prophesy some "new" thing, no. Because it's all there already in the Bible.
Your conversations with God must be somewhat limited if he won't answer one question. You don't see the irony that you claim to have conversations with God but can't get a simple answer to an easy question.
You're welcome to have conversations with Him yourself also.
Be aware---He often asks questions, not just the other way around. Just to hear what you'll say. Like He asked Adam questions, like He asked Cain questions, like He asked Saul questions..........
Are you ready to answer His questions?
You would have to tell me. I am not interested in anyone's sexual preference but my own, and those of my partner (potential partner). I don't understand why people have to broadcast theirs in public. Why not be tasteful and keep it in the bedroom?
By the way, I would venture to say that you have a "Christ-like" attitude towards your friends.
The biggest problem I see is that so many will justify their sins, no matter what the sin is. Some try to justify fornication, for instance. This is the biggest problem that I see personally in the world.
It isn't just about being gay or fornicating. It is about justification.
Well, the question is- is either a sin?
Fornication is a sin, according to the Bible. You must define being gay before we can discuss if it is a sin or not. I can only go by what the Bible says about it,
That's simply not true, you could use your own brain instead of using a two thousand year old book with ridiculous rules not intended for us today.
The rules are the same, God has not become politically correct. The spirit of his laws apply today as in noahs day. The rich man needs to give to the poor of a pure heart, the poor man needs to help the needy from a pure heart. The hooker needs to find a new job and the crooked accountant needs to clean up his act. The angry dad needs to become less angry. The disobedient child needs to learn to be more obedient. Gay people need to realize that God made children to be a blessing and carry on the dna sequence (multiply)
When it comes to the sex lives of humans we can see that Gods rule of abstinence greatly diminishes much heartache, sorrow etc. If we truly ever wanted to value finding that one special person to experiment and experience our virginal sex lives with and to grow together sexually we might have found out that sharing virginity with a wife is a wonderful thing beyond imagination and it builds character along the way.
To say what you said shows shallow and selfish understanding of what Gods intentions really are.
To say what you said shows shallow and selfish understanding of what Gods intentions really are. It also shows a shallow and selfish understanding of human nature and nature for that matter. Asking people to change who or what sex they are attracted to is futile. I'll make the assumption you are a heterosexual man for a moment. Do you think you could abandon your feeling, emotions and desires for women and simply apply them to men?
Shallow and selfish? First of all there is no God so you are wasting your breath except to look like a bigot. Sorry you can't see the irony of a supposed God making making homosexuality and then telling people not to be homosexual.
And while I'm at it, incase you are unaware, both homosexual men and women are able to pass their DNA onto their children.
God's rules from the bible? Rape, murder and slavery!
Why do you insist that everybody should think like you?
Gay people will also say the same, instead of the same sex, they will be saying that about the opposite.
Do you think brain washing can make you gay? No amount of brain washing can make a gay, it need hormonal or genetic changes to be gay.[I cannot, even the thought makes me throw up]
It is not gay people alone spread AIDS, the have more chance because they get more injuries during the act. The only way to totally stop AIDS is stopping all sexual activities and blood transfusion, ready for that?
The rights gays are fighting for is not the right to make others gay or preach gayism(its not a religion) to others, but their right to have their private life, the right to keep our noses out of their bed room.
"Both HIV-1 and HIV-2 are believed to have originated in non-human primates in West-central Africa and to have transferred to humans (a process known as zoonosis) in the early 20th century. HIV-1 appears to have originated in southern Cameroon through the evolution of SIV(cpz), a simian immunodeficiency virus (SIV) that infects wild chimpanzees (HIV-1 descends from the SIVcpz endemic in the chimpanzee subspecies Pan troglodytes troglodytes). The closest relative of HIV-2 is SIV(smm), a virus of the sooty mangabey (Cercocebus atys atys), an old world monkey living in litoral West Africa (from southern Senegal to western Côte d'Ivoire). New World monkeys such as the owl monkey are resistant to HIV-1 infection, possibly because of a genomic fusion of two viral resistance genes. HIV-1 is thought to have jumped the species barrier on at least three separate occasions, giving rise to the three groups of the virus, M, N, and O.
There is evidence that humans who participate in bushmeat activities, either as hunters or as bushmeat vendors, commonly acquire SIV. However, SIV is a weak virus, and it is typically suppressed by the human immune system within weeks of infection. It is thought that several transmissions of the virus from individual to individual in quick succession are necessary to allow it enough time to mutate into HIV. Furthermore, due to its relatively low person-to-person transmission rate, it can only spread throughout the population in the presence of one or more of high-risk transmission channels, which are thought to have been absent in Africa prior to the 20th century"
Sorry to say, I have rarely seen such self importance and arrogance and to a certain ignorance in one post.
Because you go one way others should stay in attention? Better you stay put in your room and switch off the TV. If you were born in Iran in taliban Afganistan, you wouldn't even dare to get out, let alone show your photo in a public forum. If you were asked to do all that will you enjoy?
You are forgetting that gay or not gay, all are humans and all have equal rights. They have the same right as you to join a scout or any work as they please.
Got any problem, you always have your room/home.
If that's the way you feel, I also encourage that viewpoint.
Have you any comprehension problem? gay people do not sleep with animals, it is bestiality. People got AIDS not because "they slept with monkeys", but they handled and ate monkeys. The initial spread was caused by bisexual people. And as Melissa pointed out lesbians have less chance of getting AIDS than bisexual.
I wish you all the best and and sincerely hope you attain your wish fast.
You know, I would like to thank you for the lesson you have just taught me.
Gay people are brain dead! Maybe they don't have a brain. They sure must not have a soul!
Such hatred, did you learn that from the teaching of Christ?
Gay people are brain dead?
I think brain dead are those who can't figure out how to reply to other people's comments and continue to reply to their own.
God loves lesbians then. They have and have always had the lowest HIV rate. I'm safer having sex with woman, statistically, than men. If I would spread HIV through my sexual activities it would be more likely that the heterosexual sex would be the culprit.
The lesson-according to your logic- is that women should get "bored" and have sex with other women more often. It's safer.
If you wanted to become a nun rather than join my dating pool, I'd encourage it.
Doesn't anyone care about the poor nuns!??!
I do! I have a couple friends who are nuns - and I wouldn't want to subject them to this kind of crazy either.
Thanks, Julie. My (former) sisters might be a little disturbed by this kind of crazy. They were beautiful and loving where my crazy was concerned, but this might be a bit much.
the few nuns that I know are some of the most loving, most caring and most accepting people that I know. In fact, I think yesterday they spent most of the day at a shelter that helps people suffering from HIV. They sit with them, wash them and talk to them like human beings. What a concept. They don't seem too concerned with judging them, telling them that they deserve what they got and that they're abominations, though. In fact, I don't think I've ever heard them utter that word once.
Maybe that's why you like me so much. I was a sister for three years. Most nuns want nothing more than to be like Jesus. Jesus didn't judge. He didn't condemn. He loved. Period. If every Christian could simply try that - the being like Jesus thing - and do what HE said rather than SAY all that they think - the world would be a place filled with love. I love. I don't judge - at least I try with everything I am not to. That's all I want back from people. <3
That is part of the reason that I like you so much, yes.
I do have to interject here, though (atheist, you'll have to forgive me) that they try to be like they THINK jesus was - as passed down from oral tradition and written in a big book by who knows whom with no evidence at all that it actually happened.
Atheist tangent concluded :-)
Fair enough. But remember, while we can't prove it as fact, we take that faith that we can't get rid of as confirmation that we're at least on the right road. And to be completely objective - even if Jesus didn't exist historically, He certainly set a fine example about how to treat people.
true...what is said about him is mostly positive - minus the hell, the substitutionarry atonement and the "don't save for the future" bits. Of course, the aftermath is rather repulsive.
I don't take Scripture as literally as some others might regarding Hell. Even the death and resurrection don't negate the wisdom of Jesus's words about how to treat others. Plus, remember, take it easy on me...lol I'm not a bible scholar.
lol I'm sorry - I'm not trying to pick on you. I get what you're saying, though. (still though - what is WRITTEN as Jesus' words....whether or not he actually said them - or existed at all - is still up for debate)
There's a book on the historicity of Jesus that I think you might actually find interesting - not to try and make you change your mind, but just to examine some of the historical aspects of the personage of jesus christ. I'll let you know what it is if you want, but I don't want to potentially offend you if you don't want to know :-)
No, I'd be interested.
I know you're not trying to pick on me. No worries there. I've stood toe to toe with Mark (when we barely knew each other) and come away from the argument with a desire to make him my friend. Rad and I are buddies. I don't offend easily. And I'm not shy. When I do feel offended, I'll speak up.
I have to admit, though...I think if you had been raised in a less evangelical type atmosphere, you may have hung around the Church for a while longer. Ultimately, doesn't matter to me. You're as much my sister here.
Gifted? Why do you say that?
My mom did - but mom's always do, don't they?
Ha, my mom (and I miss her greatly) never said I was gifted in any way. She once told me she thought I was gay because I had male friends crash in my bed and then told me she would never except grandkids from my black girlfriend. Later in life she stopped drinking and became a much more excepting person.
You have a wonderful ability of disarming people and making friends. It's fun to watch. I unfortunately don't have the same ability.
Thank you. I appreciate that very much, Rad. I love, love, love people. And I don't care if we believe the same things or not. I just care that if I offer kindness, I get it back. And, you have more of that in you than you realize I think.
So weird. My mom was an alcoholic until about ten years before she died. But she was never unkind to me. Not always the best mom, but a decent person at heart. We healed a lot after she got sober and I came to understand her much better.
It's by David Fitzgerald and It's called "Nailed: 10 Christian myths that prove Jesus didn't exist at all". Don't be put-off by the title - it's meant to be a little controversial, but the study and the historicity is extremely well done. David is an awesome guy. In fact, if you go on YouTube, he does a whole presentation on it.
You may be right about my upbringing. For me, however, I think that almost any path that I had taken would have ended up at this result. I can't justify believing in something and not knowing whether its true or not, just because I want it to be. I think I would always be a skeptic.
Hey, even some of us who believe are skeptics. Don't think God can't handle skeptics. I think those of us who walk through life blindly obeying, believing, and following are the ones who don't quite get the 'made in His image' thing. Those folks don't understand that an intelligent God would create intelligent people - who might - oh, no, dare I say it!?!? - use their brains! Ask questions! Maybe even occasionally doubt, even. I did. Lots. Still do sometimes.
I'll take a look for the book...I'm interested in almost anything about Jesus - especially in a historical context. Primarily because so few people look at Him that way. We're so wrapped up in His spiritual persona.
P.S. I'll let you know when I find it and read it.
It's available in physical book form, as well as available for Kindle and nook. I'm even friends with David on Facebook - and he's thrilled to be getting the word out there. I think he did an amazing job - and if you don't find the book, you might want to watch his presentation - it's the short and condensed version of the book and it's awesome.
You're right about skepticism. I'm trying to break out of my mental block about other christians that are not southern baptists like I was raised. You're right. If god did in fact create us, then he made us intelligent for a reason. It's silly to think that he wouldn't want us to think.
Hey, to be fair, not all Southern Baptists are bigoted and rigid. My hubby was raised in that denomination, and you'd be amazed at how alike we are.
weird. That's almost unheard of in my world.
Can he do a drive-by version of tolerant southern baptists on my parents?
We can try. Till then, if you need tolerant Christian friends, we're here.
yea! bring up a God you don't believe in when it is convieant for you. Talking about a Jesus thing that some here don't understand. Have your little sinful party and inflict your crazy thoughts! and yes! YOU are an Abomination! so stick that in your pipe and smoke it! Go get your head checked and think! One day you will see how wrong you are to talk your smack about stuff you chose not to believe in just to ease your guilty conscience!
dude, what is your effing problem? What are you so angry about? No one has actually attacked you. They've criticized your beliefs, and guess what - beliefs deserve to be criticized. Get over it.
Jo, is there a reason you're being so downright mean to almost everyone in this forum? People may be disagreeing with you, but I haven't seen anyone insult you or call you names. You're throwing insults around with no concern for who they hit. Do you mean to do that? People can disagree with you without being abominations or sick, evil people. I'm beginning to take offense to your words, and you haven't even slung any my way yet.
Yeah, that's actually a better way to put it. I'm sort of 'put off' I guess, more than offended by the sudden vehemence of her very angry words.
I have no guilty conscience. I live a respectful modest life, with a wife, 3 kids and a dog. I volunteer my time when I can and share what I can share have with my friends. I wouldn't call you an abomination, I'm sure you are fine person.
I am having the impression that the bible is robbing us of our common sense. If the bible is the word of God then why is our common sense makes a lot of sense than the bible? I've read the OLD TESTAMENT but I've skipped the genealogies and the census.
Being gay or having sex with homosexuals is not a sin. It can only be a sin if your reference is the bible. However, there are acts that are morally unacceptable (e.g. Doing it in public) and it goes the same with male-female relationships.
I've never met one gay person-including my bi-sexual self- who has tried to justify anything.
That would mean that there is someone to try to justify it to. Someone they view as an authority that would disagree with what they are doing.
That person/deity obviously doesn't exist to them.
I would assume they fall into two major categories...
1. They don't believe it's a sin.
2. They don't believe in God.
Therefore no justification needed. Personally I'll "fornicate" with whomever I like. There is no justification needed or attempted.
Hmm. Does non-belief in God make Him disappear? How do you justify sleeping around with whoever you choose?
I don't justify "sleeping around with whoever I choose".
I have no one to justify it to. It's my body. If it was someone else's body then I would have to justify.
And no not believing in God doesn't make him disappear any more than believing in him makes him appear.
My aunt had eight children. They were struggling financially when they found out she was pregnant with her sixth child. A friend asked her what on earth she was thinking by getting pregnant again and told her how irresponsible she was to have done so.
My aunt very diplomatically told her to mind her own business. Her exact words were, "I appreciate your concern, but I would thank you to keep your nose out of my uterus."
I said something similar to someone when I was pregnant with Aiden. A bit less polite but I'm not big on diplomacy
BTW what's the difference between war and abortion, either way is killing.. Jesus was never for killing.. Give that to your conservative friends.
I have a friend, who's wife and he were Christians, they met on a evangelism mission, door to door.. They were both spreading the word.. Anyhow, later she revealed that she was a Lesbian.. I think that's what drove him away from Christ.. Keep in mind, once you are married, don't divorce if you can help it.. I've avoided marriage because it's a tremendous commitment, and I think these days people have really lessened the importance of remaining married. It destroys families, I know I was a child of divorce at the age of 7, it changes everything when you are in a loving relationship in a family, and divorce just $#!@# everything.. But if you are in a abusive relationship, that's justification for divorce.. Divorce in my family didn't have to happen, there was no abuse, it was just a lack of communication. Unfortunately it took the divorce for one to get the message. Marriage is about mutual submission, that means you literally lose your self-will, but isn't that a big time Christian attribute? Zero selfishness? I also say don't have Children unless you think you are good enough.. The sins of the father are the sins of the son, if you are a bad person and you have children, it's likely you will pass on your bad judgment and treatment of others. A rebel shouldn't be a father. If you are a rebel and you want to do well, become a priest.. I'm serriously thinking about this, as I am a major rebel. However I think that rebels shouldn't be put to death like some jerk politician was pushing recently.. Rebels could be called liberals, and to put rebels to death would be to remove people who actually seem to think.. I haven't seen very many Conservatives that can think outside the lines of whatever box they think they are in.
I have seen you write in these forums that you belong to God. if you belong to Him, then it is not your body anymore but it is His.
If he made me he would also know that my body still belongs to me.
I made my children yet they certainly don't belong to me.
I'll not justify myself to him either. He can either throw me in hell or send me to heaven but I still don't owe him an explanation.
Your life and your body is from the one who made you. God knew of you in your mothers womb. He gives life and can take it away. There are two well known stories about folks who said there wasn't a God. They are no longer on this earth. The two examples are Actress Marilyn Monroe told Billy Graham that she did not need Jesus and died shortly afterwards-
The man who built the Titanic After the construction of Titanic, a reporter asked him how safe the Titanic would be. With an ironic tone he said:
'Not even God can sink it' The result: I think you all know what happened to the Titanic
He can't disappear if he has yet to appear. But yes, when you stop believing in God the concept of God disappears. God is only real in your imagination, much like santa.
If she 'sleeps around with whoever she choose' what is your problem as long as she is not sleeping with you (in that case she has a problem)?
Better keep your nose(and Bible) out of others private.
Of course Gods rules do not apply to those who don't believe in Him. Thats like making sharia law apply to me, like making communism my way of lifestyle, like making me adhere to australian drinking rules. For me to tell a non believer they are sinning is like trying to tell a geologist he is adding wrong.
People do what people do and this is what God has been battling throughout our entire history. If and we should include when, people come to God they soon learn differently about their former beliefs, until then there is really no question of justification.
Self Righteousness is the worst sin of all.. Because it drives potential converts away.. Recall this seen, Pharisees are the old world self-righteousness:
Actually no I got that wrong, if you are a Christian, denying God is the worst sin of all.. But that's basically doing this: saying you believe in god, then turning around and saying "naw God doesn't exist, my mistake".. But you can always come back, the unforgivable sin is just denying what you feel is right.. If that makes you feel better, but its best just to let some room there for some words to enter in, it's like you don't just decide to ignore people.. To ignore people is wrong, isn't that what dictators do? Good example of ones sinning the ultimate..
I agree, especially when it comes to the self righteous! Who, exactly, do they think they are?
I have gay friends, and we have mutual interests(other than sexual) to talk about and partisipate in together.
I have hetrosexual friends, and we have mutual interests (other than sexual) to talk about and partisipate in together.
If sexual preferance and or description of sexual actavities are all that any one of these friends have to talk about (weather they are gay or hetrosexual) I soon become disintrested in communicating with them.
The same can be said of tapdancers or tennis players. Friendships are built upon commonalities
If I'm not interested in tapdancing or tennis, I certainly don't want that to be the center of conversation
And YES one sin in NO greater than another. I need to take out my own trash before becoming concerned about any one elses. And even then, If I'm not falling down over it, it is not my concern.
I used to have a couple of gay friends who were the most wonderful people in the world. The way I look at it is that it is a worse sin to lie and cheat on your wife or husband and wreck their lives than it is to be gay. This is because gay couples just like any other couples can love and cherish each other till death do they part. So where is the sin? As someone once said when confronted by the gay issue - they don't have horns, do they? Just regular folk only they love differently from the rest.
Do you really believe gay people don't cheat or lie, steal ect? That just because they are *gay*, they some how don't have the same other sins like anyone else? I don't find it to be "love" when two men or two women engage in exchanging in bodily fluids. It is sick, sick, sick! It is to satisfy the flesh. I am tired of the *gays* being allowed to have their "free reign" in the disgusting public display of satisfying their cardinal affections with each other.
Like it or not, the Bible says that gay people, like disobedient children, are to be put to death.
That was old testament. A new testament interpretation of this OT way is that they will die spiritually. We are so very blessed to be living in NT times. Count your blessings not your curses lol.
What is it that makes a human being think that they must have a 'special' kind of love for their 'special' kinds of friends? We do not deserve a reward for loving anyone. We do it by choice. So, I deserve no special reward for loving my husband, loving my children, loving my friends, loving an addict, loving a sinner, loving an individual who is gay, straight, fat, thin, tall, short, purple, blotchy, covered in cellulite, smart, stupid, kind, cruel, or any of the other umpteen million labels we put on other people.
If you love someone, wonderful. That means you must accept them as they are. Period. What you believe in, condone, respect, loathe or abhor, like, find interesting...whatever...should have absolutely no bearing on whether you choose to love someone or not. The only behavior that should affect you is yours. IF another chooses to behave in a manner that brings you harm, you are well within your rights as a human being to walk away from that person. If you choose not to do so, then the effects are your responsibility to deal with, not theirs.
Being gay is not a big deal unless you make it one. Last time I checked, every one of my gay friends just wants to be recognized as a human being. If I can't give them that recognition, it's my problem, not theirs.
I have a lot to say on this, but for now, I'm rambling and wish to stop. I'm still really trying to put together a reasoned response to this question. I will end with this. I am a Christian. I am convinced that God is far more concerned with how I treat people than with whom I share my bed. Because of that, I'm pretty sure that's all he's concerned with for everyone.
You have said it well. I enjoyed reading your post. I pray for those who call themself *gay*. I cry for those hearts who have been broken and now allow another person to break their bond with God. It is something everyone should pray to have the truth come out and stop this insanity! And so you know. Yes, God does want us to *love* each other. This doesn't mean to have sex with them. It means when they hurt you, you turn the other cheek and when they steal your food, you give them your house too. Love your enemies. Pray for those who persecute you.
If you only love those who love you, then that is your reward.
No, the reason for this post is that I want to post or Like rather on facebook lgbt rights but something is stopping me. I look for no rewards for liking wonderful people who I have no problem with. I just can't seem to fight for their rights. I'm just non action type in regards to this. but I am seeing more lately things I didn't see before, hence the forum
Well I'm not interested in getting politically involved but I guess that says it all.
I'm just an observer. And that's what I'll continue to be.
That was my point- whatever anyone else got out of it-good! Cause I don't know where a lot of it came from lol
I'm fine.....Like I said in the beginning.....I''m just happy I've evolved to this place of acceptance
I'm so discouraged...lol
I go on a passionate rant, pour out my heart, make what I think are some damn good points about human behavior...and all I get is a 'Right On.'
Am I just really that boring?
Don't be Motown. Your answer (not rant) was full of compassion. Aren't Christians supposed to be full of that? I'm an atheist, you're a Christian, we can accept and respect each other because we have so many other things in common, which includes compassion and an ability to walk in the shoes of another.
We both recognise that it is not our job to make judgements. How boring would the world be if we were all the same? If I believed that there was a G, I'd thank him for producing individuals, not parrots, conformists and hypocryts.
It takes us all to make the world go round.
In your statement "I'd thank him for producing individuals, not parrots, conformists and hypocryts". We are all individuals who are on a personal journey through this life. I would much rather believe in something to help me get through the evil of this world, then to become of this world and find out this world was nothing compared to what would be my fate for not believing. I could never understand why it is so hard for people who are intelligent not to recognise that we all need something to believe in!
I would also much rather believe in something to help me get through the evil of this world, but just because I'd rather believe in something doesn't make that something real. I'd rather be 6'2", but I'm not even though I'd rather.
We don't all need to believe as you had stated, you can't speak for all of humanity. I know many people who can't understand anyone thinking other than the way they do. I know a grown man who is afraid of being alone at night and thinks everyone is the same. I personally don't need to believe in God to get me though this life, sorry if that's hard for you to understand, but it's a reality.
okay then I see your point. Thank you for respectfully clearing this up.
I would like to see everyone be happy and have all the things it is written. There are so many people I think would be so cool to be friends with and hang out. I will work on it! ok?
http://janikon.hubpages.com/hub/Justify … ious-Right
My opinion on this matter.
This is how I see it.
God so loved THE WORLD, that He gave His only son. Jn 3:16
While we were still yet sinners, Christ died for us. Rm 5 :8
God loves sinners. I am a sinner. If God can love me, He can love anyone, and not b/c I say so, but b/c the Bible is full of verses that say He loves all of mankind.
Is homosexuality a sin in God's eyes? Yes. He is God, He gets to decide things like that. However, the Bible says over and over that God loves sinners (which is all of us) and He wants to save us from our sin. It is imperative that we receive salvation, it doesn't matter if all our sin issues are resolved. He works those out, we are all works in progress.
So, He loves, He forgives, we are all alike, we do not need to judge, but we need to be like our God, who does what? Loves and forgives. We *will all be judged one day, that is why it is imperative that we receive the covering of His blood... which covers our sins. No man is perfect, no man can see the Father, but by the son.
I have many friends and a few relatives that are gay. I love them all, and they love me.
I like this pic very much. It's the Westboro church that's spreading that msg. of hate around... and a lone kid who pops in the pic just long enough to share a msg. I hope you can see it.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid= … mp;theater
I was given the same sort of junk when I was born into the church, it sounds all well and good, but whether you believe it or not is the question.. Most people say they do, but it is just a sort of peer pressure.. There are places where it says "if two of you agree on something, there I am" or something of the sort. I follow the bible and God, but not so close as to sound like a robot that just regurgitates scripture.. Mainly because it just confuses me, and confuses those around me. I know it says that people won't understand this stuff, you kind of have to know stuff like why jesus is the lamb that died.. It's a jewish symbol that the killing of a lamb was the sacrifice necessary for the forgiveness of sins, and so Jesus was the last sacrifice, blameless but he took on the burden of all our sin like a lamb. Did you know lambs have limited eyesight they have to follow the butt of the lamb in front of them, and they don't really know where they are going, sort of like lemmings, but not self destructive like lemmings. But we are all like lambs, we by ourselves go nowhere but get lost, but together we go wherever our shepard leads.. See I just made up all this stuff from what pieces I knew of what I've been told about lambs, and such, the part about us getting nowhere by ourselves, that came from a combination of thought, and I just threw that together.. And it's more inspiring, I think than sticking rigidly to the bible and just regurgitating scripture without really completely understanding what it is.. Like did you know that when it says it is easier for the camel to enter the eye of the needle than for a rich man to enter heaven, that's referencing the idea that there is a wall in jerusalem that camels have to kneel down to enter.. So for a rich person to enter heaven is to be humbled.. You know why the apostles were terrified out on the lake when Jesus walked to them on the water? It's because it was perceived in the Jewish culture that the lake is the entrance to hell, and so Jesus had to sort of break the apostles of their cultural superstition to make them realize that things were not as they seemed, and that to have faith is to overcome their fear of hell.. Hell is something to fear, but Jesus isn't going to just let you slip into it by accident.
Haha, did I look like the dumb blond of Christians? lol.. that's ok, Im not easily offended. Ive actually studied the Bible at length. I wouldn't call me a scholar, but I didn't do the Readers Digest study version either.
Yes, I had heard that about the camel and the wall... Ive heard some pastors say its true while others say that was not the translation. One pastor in particular used to say whenever you can take the Bible literally, do it.
I had not heard the one about the lake being the entrance to Hell thing. Would have been a tough one for a bunch of fisherman to overcome eh? But I don't argue with you, there's a ton of stuff I don't know... or don't know yet, maybe Ive got time to learn.
Yes, I really enjoyed your inspirational msg. laced with truths, it was actually quite inspiring as you said.
I still believe every word I wrote and meant it as well. It's all about love my friend. And I believe, it's all about God. He began it, He's gonna end it. I wanna please Him, I think He's worth pleasing and as a matter of fact, He's pretty much the only one worth pleasing, cause when you please Him, you're gonna end up doing right by others anyway, so I see living for Him as win/win.
Well spoken, Beth, that little kid is a Sweetheart!
yes babes tend to really know the truth- listen to them! have a great week
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You know I am so tired of Ran talking his crap. And everyone else in here. This isn't a legitamate questions! I can tell by the people who post here how they are supposidly "all that" yet do u see how they look? Ugly! I guess, if I couldn't find some one who was of the different gender to want to do me cuz I am nasty looking Melissa. and cant show my face like Ran. And for your information Ran, you are a Piece of what you referred me as. Where do you get off? oh, yea that's right! Let's talk about the baby molesting abomination of the Catholic church and those "nuns" who are gay and a bunch of baby rapers! Yea, let's hang on hat on how great the Priest and nuns are!
LMAO... I'm actually pretty cute. Got dimples and everything
I've apparently got plenty of people to sleep around with too. So I'm good. Thanks for your concern though.
It is not for anybody to judge or call something a sin. Unless I am badly mistaken nobody who posted here is a god(a few goddess perhaps) so nobody can say with undeniable proof(not faith, proof) what is a sin.
When it comes to personal beliefs and decisions, the only person responsible for your "soul" is you. Marriage, sexual orientation and such are civil matters, and as such in this country, should be free from religious beliefs and restrictions. Somebody being gay in no way affects my life in the least. I don't wake up wondering if them sneaky gays are finally going to get equal rights, or take pleasure in some religious belief that I am spiritually superior. All are created equal, and should be treated as such.
I do not have gay friends.
However I have some friends that may be gay?
No, I do not ask. I had a friend of seven years tell me a few months ago that he was gay. He thought I already knew and was shocked that I did not. I have friends, placing them in a group is ridiculous.
He is not my "gay friend", he is my friend.
If he were always happy would it be alright to call him your gay friend?
You made my point in one sentence. Took me several more than that.
To the anti-gay lobby, what is it that upsets you?
If it's a case of perceived morality, how do their lives affect yours? You carry on with your happy marriages and 2.4 children.
If it is a case of perceived sin, look at your own judgemental and bigoted attitudes. Let God be everyone's judge. Consider that Jesus never spoke about the subject and God never once stated that the reason Sodom was destroyed was due to homosexuality.Ezekiel 16:49
If the "go forth and multiply" is not fulfilled, go and complain to the heterosexual couples who choose not to have children.
If it is anal sex that's the problem, go and shout at the heterosexual married couples who enjoy bum sex.
If it is gay couples in loving relationships, go and consider how the Church condones divorced and remarried couples.
The whys and wherefores of homosexuality in the bible is not clear cut. It is fogged by translation, the original meanings, and 21st century cultural assumptions of history.
The sky will not fall down if gay couples get married.
I just love my friends....even if they are gay or straight...I won't put a label on them!
Good point. People are ppl and ppl need to be shown love.
Lot(Lut) was a prophet whose nation was punished due to this sin. It's written in Islams Holy Book Quran. Don't know about Bible. But it's sin. Someone who believes in religion must not severe ties with such a person only to bring him on the right path.
I agree. But you can only go so far. If they don't agree, you move on.
The God you worship in punished a whole nation because of the sin of one man? Am I reading that correctly? Do you think an entire school of children should be punished because of something the principal did?
I might be wrong for commenting here, but I agreed with Fastian so I feel as if you are talking to me also. What one man's sin and what children are you referring to. I could be mistaken, but I believe he was referring to Sodom. He punished that nation for the sins of the people collectively according to the bible. What children in what school?
except the "sin of Sodom" was not that everyone was gay. Sorry. Even the bible admits that their sin was inhospitality
I adore the "everyone is gay" story. Did God really need to destroy the town in that case? Wouldn't the "problem" kind of sorted itself out eventually?
I have admitted to being slow Rad. Sometimes it takes a little longer for me to understand analogies. S&G were not destroyed for homosexuality alone. That was the main purpose, but not the only one. There were woman and young men so there was always the possibilty they may have lasted more than another generation. Until I started reading HP I had never listened to an atheist. From what I've observed, many seem to be ex-Catholic, of oppressive Christian parents, oppressive Christian teachings, have a beef with "god", or gay. Where do you fit in?
Actually, I should have said the reasons for their becoming atheist.
Please direct me to the information you have as to why S&G were destroyed because all I can find is that they had sinned and were wicked and there was an outcry.
Atheist come in all shapes and sizes just as Christians do. You have most likely talked to many atheists, but they don't typically bring it up in casual conversation. You are mistaken to think we are angry with God, there is typically no anger because you can't be angry with someone who doesn't exist. Imagine being angry with the tooth fairy?
I mentioned why in Ezek.16:50. I asked you why did they become atheist. Until Hp I have had no contact with the naysayers. I'm 64, it's been awhile since the tooth fairy. Matter of fact we never talked, he/she always came when I was asleep But on the serious side, I'm not going to argue with you or anyone else about what's mine ( my beliefs, thoughts, car, wife, house, etc.), just like I would be foolish to argue with you about what is yours ( Thoughts, opinion, etc.). That way there will be no conflict and 2 noble people can remain out of the dark ages I believe I explained to you earlier, you don't believe what I do, so why would/should I discuss my spiritual beliefs with you? I'm almost sure we could find other things of interest to talk about, if not...
The main reason people become atheists is simply because they don't think there is a God. I personally looked at the evidence and slowly formed the opinion that I don't believe there is a God.
No problem with that either. To each his own. But I don't appreciate the put downs, attempts at humiliation, being called a liar, etc., ( challenges are expected) when merely stating what my opinion is. That shows disrespect. It seems to be common with the atheists here. If you don't agree, just say so without all the noise. They (believers) have the evidence (and the right to feel they have) they need for their position, just as you do for yours. That's all that matters. And again we can remain out of the dark ages
I find this post really interesting. You want respect and you don't like put downs or attempts at humiliation, yet you state that these things are common among ageists. Is't that a put down?
You claim you have the evidence, but you're unable to share this evidence with us atheists?
I want respect if I give it. Don't you? The "attempts" don't happen? Let me hear what you call it. What I have is proof for me. That's all that matters. I have nothing to prove to you. Besides, you don't believe anyway. What difference should it make to you? I'm into my health Rad, spiritual and physical health. And I'm HEALTHY
Sure it goes both ways, but complaining that atheists are so and so is no different then Atheists complaining about so and so.
You are incorrect in your assumption about Sodom and Gomorrah. They were not destroyed mainly because of homosexuality. According to Ezekiel, I believe, they were destroyed because they were inhospitable. Ezekiel 16:49
It seems those who attempt to explain away the biblical condemnations of S&G claim their sin was inhospitality. The men of S&G were certainly being inhospitable. There may only be one or two things more inhospitable than homosexual gang rape. But to say the Father completely destroyed 2 cities and all their inhabitants for being inhospitable clearly misses the point. While S&G were guilty of many sins, was the reason He nuked them. Ezek.16:49,50- the Hebrew word translated "detestable" refers to something that is morally disgusting in His eyesight and is the exact same word used in Lev.18:22 that refers to homosexuality as an "abomination". Jude7 expresses the same thoughts. So, again, while homosexuality was not the only sin in which S&G indulged, it does appear to be the primary reason for the destructions of the cities. At the same time, it is not biblical to say that homosexuality was the exclusive reason why He destroyed S&G. The cities were definitely not exclusive in terms of the sins in which they indulged. Every time homosexual behavior is mentioned, it is condemned. The Book is not homophobic (excessively hostile toward homosexuality), but it clearly treats heterosexuality as normative (1cor.7; ephes.5; 1peter3, etc.). Attempts to reinterpret the Books teachings on the subject raise an even more crucial question: What Scripture can be presented that supports, legitimizes homosexuality? Risking the danger of accusations of speaking for the Most High, S&G merely serve as a powerful example of how He feels about sin in general, and in this instance, homosexuality specifically.
What a fascinating conundrum we have here. Am I correct in that you're claiming God hates homosexuality? Clearly it can be said the homosexuality is not a choice, unless of course if one is bi-sexual. I mean, I can't wake tomorrow and decide to be homosexual and this seems to be how homosexuals describe heterosexuality so I imagine it's the same for them. Now if you feel that a God created humanity, but hates homosexuality why create it in the first place? It seems to me we only have two options. 1. God doesn't care about sexuality? 2. We live in a Godless universe where homosexuality can be explained?
It's not really even a choice then. I can't control who I'm attracted to.
I guess, but what I meant was you could (if you wanted to) chose to be with either as you may find either sexes attractive, while I could not chose to be attracted to men. Men are gross :-)
I agree. Men ARE gross.
Actually it kinda sucks in a way. I am attracted to both sexes but the attraction is different. I'm never completely fulfilled in a monogamous relationship with either. However I would be LESS fulfilled by having to split affections between two people.
hmmm, that does kind of suck. Maybe the right person will come along. I know, I know.
LOL, I've actually got the best husband that I could possibly have. He's wonderful. He isn't, however, androgynous.
No, it can't be said that homosexuality is not a choice. That is being studied. No definitive answer. Nature or nurture, genes or learned behavior. Would most scientist say it is not choice, yes. Frankly, I don't care. Straight, Homosexual, or anywhere in between, with me respect is a given. And yes, according to Scripture there is no doubt He hates homosexuality. Here again, show me a verse that says he condones it.
I don't need to, but if you have no problem with homosexuality, but your God does the you've got a conundrum. Either you or your God is wrong and unethical. Which one?
additionally, if everyone was, in fact, gay - why would lot offering his two virgin daughters have any weight whatsoever? If they were, in fact, gay - then what would the two virgins have done? given them makeup and clothing advice? Please. What often goes unnoticed is that this story is repeated later on in genesis.
If there had been only ONE sinless person in the town, the town would have been spared
Are you talking about Lot and his family who God saved?
One sinless man? Can you find one today anywhere? Are you sinless? Can you through the first stone?
The most disturbing part of that story is what Lot does to protect the new men in the village, he offers is two virgin daughters up instead of himself. This is the moral man that God saved from the village. What a troubling story is set an moral example.
Robertr04 wrote ...Until I started reading HP I had never listened to an atheist. From what I've observed, many seem to be ex-Catholic, of oppressive Christian parents, oppressive Christian teachings, have a beef with "god", or gay. Where do you fit in?
Robert ... until I came to HP I too hadn't had any conversations with atheist.
I think that most Atheist have an arguement with religion more so than with God. They can not agree with religions perseption of such an entity. They can not have a problem with a God that they do not believe in.
It is the way in which God is presented to them that they can not accept.
Just my opinion.
I do not believe in many perseptions of God. Doesn't mean that I don't believe in God.
Sorry, It has nothing to do with how God was presented. What do you think, if you just present God in a different way then we'll suddenly believe? From my perspective there is simply no evidence for any God and plenty of evidence for a Godless universe.
My intentions would never be to present my Father in another way, defend Him, or try and prove He exists. Nowhere in Scripture can you find Him asking or commanding to be defended. On the contrary, He tells me, "If you hold your peace and let Me fight your battles, I guarantee you the victory". He defends me. He does not ask me to prove Him to the unbelieving. He says everything in its season. He will give proof. IMHO, there is no doubt He will. Time will tell.
Sorry, your two post are completely contradictory to each other.
Guarantee victory? What happens when two nobble Christians go into battle? Do we determine which one was correct, by who kills who? Right back to the middle ages we go folks!
"He will give proof" Really, no one ever dies an atheist?
I don't know what happens when two noble christians go into battle. I would assume like in most battles, someone wins, someone loses, or it could end in a draw. Give me an example. The differences they may have should be resolved without violence amongst themselves. That would allow everyone to remain in this "civilized era". My friend, many die atheist and believers. And it will always be that way. Yah, nor death is partial.
I'm not saying that at all. A different presentation will change nothing as to your beliefs. As far as what you are kicking against is however ... the presentation. Without our presentation, you have nothing to argue against.
By presentation, do you mean how God is presented?
Sorry I can't spend more time on line & that it takes so long to reply sometimes.
Yes, The way god is presented and their/our perseption as to who/what god is what I'm talking about.
I have no doubt that there is a higher power, and I do believe that he/it does ocasionally interact in the actavities here on this level, but I think that I would be in error to think that I can adequately describe who, what, where and why God is.
The description depicted in the Christian bible is grosely incomplete.
I don't think that we are suposed to understand more than what we do.
Rad Man wrote:
I don't need to, but if you have no problem with homosexuality, but your God does the you've got a conundrum. Either you or your God is wrong and unethical. Which one?
Every Christian knows that one sin is no greater than any other ...... but we tend to over look that FACT. I think to recognize or not to recognize Christ as our saviour can be seen as a sin ... no greater than any other "sin"
I think that when we die we return to where we came from. If we came from no place, no place is where we go. If we came from someplace, Then we go someplace.
Or something like that.
It was directed at the post you were responding to ( And yes, according to Scripture there is no doubt He hates homosexuality.) AND to your post. "And" being a key word.
If we call homosexuality worse than whatever sin we are guilty of is hypicritical.
Are you saying all sins are the same? Murder is the same as using the lords name in vain?
Well ... how many kinds of disobedience are there.
Which is worse, your son uses your car without permission OR your teenage daughter sneaks out her window at 2 AM. OR your other son sreals a dollar out of the cookie jar.
Which of these three examples are the worse form of disobedience.
Well, you didn't answer my question. In your eyes is murder that same as using the lords name in vain?
I did answer it. The point is ... where do we draw that line and who gets to deside.
Are you talking about murdering a bank teller, a drug dealer, or are you talking about murdering a murderer?
Are you talking about using the lords name in vain after your car breaks down on some dark deserted dirt road, or after a loved one is murdered or just doing it for the fun of it every waking minute of your life.
And does any of this matter? Who desides where to draw the line. This is why one disobedient act is no more disobedient than another ... at least it isn't for me to deside.
I'll have to take it that to you murder is on par with taking the lords name in vain. Our laws see that differently thank goodness because I'd hate for someone to spend the rest of his life in jail because he uttered a few words in a particular order.
If you are refering to the secular order only ... then the question was pure sillyness.
I had presumed that you were speaking of a religious concept only. In which case one crime (sin) is no greater than another.
Okay, as far as God's laws go according to you, murder is on par with taking the lords name in vain. Either you think God doesn't think murder is such a big deal or you think a cuss word or two is a very big deal. Do you agree with this morally and ethically that they have the same weight?
Okay, let me try this! ... . I think that from a GOD prospective, it would be kinda like an adult standing at the fence of a playground. The adult sees one child hit another child with a ball bat. Another child hit a cat with a ball bat. Which of these children held the most hate and disrespectfor their victom? Another child steals lunch money from a smaller child while one boy rapes a little girl. etc etc and another child is standing in the middle of the playground, standing on a box screaming obsenities at the Adult.
How do you measure the amount of hate and disrespect that the these children are exibiting?
another way of looking at it is ... A five galon container and a 12 oz. glass are both spilling over, which one are making the biggest mess on the floor. .
Okay, I see you can't answer a direct question so I'll help you out. Ethically this is a complete no brainer.
Let's say as you did that you are the adult watching over the children in a playground and one "child steals lunch money from a smaller child while one boy rapes a little girl." Which do you rush to first? Which one is the most heinous?
God is watching from the other side of the fence. All that he does is wait until they come out of the playground and come back home from whence they came. What kind of punnishment should be deliver?
Should any of them be throw into a lake of fire? Other than witholding rewards and blessings what other punishment is there to give?.
I would think it was past the time to close the playground. Those kids are terrible.
By far and away, one of the silliest arguments I've read all week. lol.
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