Religions have inculcated people that the feminine principle is evil as a result of the Adam and Eve mythology. Religions, especially patriarchical religions, have indoctrinated people that women were to controlled and subjugated to male authority. All aspects of women's power, particularly sexuality, have been classified as demonic and evil by such religions.
Religions where women have been dominant were classified as evil and demonic. It seems that many patriarchial/organized religions view women's power and strength as threatening and unfathomable. It is the reasoning of such religions that if such power is not contained, there would be havoc. An example of this was the hysteria in the Middle Ages against midwives and other so-called female pagan practictioners. It seems that these patriarchical/organized religions were uncomfortable with women who owned their power and were only happy when women were voiceless, powerless, and submissive to male and religious authority.
There are still remnants of such misogynic feelings towards women today from religious authorities especially when it comes to contraception and abortion. Many religious authorities insist that women's bodies are not their own and they have no right to determination in that regard. In many countries of the world, women are still oppressed and denied the right to education and self-expression. There are STILL some religions who refuse to admit women to powerful religious vocations such as ministers and priests, viewing that women are only fit in religious vocations that are subordinate to that of the male. Why is the feminine feared and reviled by many religious authorities?
I think evidence supports the belief that our species began with male domination. Religion was one of the binding forces for society; so it would, of course, come to the conclusion that this was normal and good.
It is only recently that Western society has progressed to the point that it understands might is not necessarily right. Religion takes time to come around because it is predicated on the assumption that God set things in place. That every step we take is away from his Grace. They first have to find evidence in their scripture for something being wrong or misinterpreted. Then they have to convince others to agree with them. Then they have to raise a generation to believe in it. But, isn't that the way all society makes peaceful progress?
Have you considered that there might be a specific reason why there are male and females?
When you consider that there is a difference, you should also conclude that it is for a purpose.
If you were to understand the purposes behind that difference, you would also conclude that each will best serve the purpose behind the design.
So unless you are the Father of the organisations in question religious or otherwise,
Who are you to dictate to them what should be and what should not be?
Wisdom dictates that any automated thing have a single head.
We see in the our own body structure, which is perpetuated naturally.
It is also a natural for us to establish a head within the thing we design whether it be a toy or organisation. So the natural thing for the woman is to establish he male companion as her head.
There are situation where the female will not look to her male companion as head, but this is usually a case of design purposes.
If You were challenging the occurrences of leaderships' abuses of their power,
(and this is not necessarily strictly a male /female issue)that would be understandable ,
Because you then speak against oddity and not for it.
I have a hub on this very subject and I have to say I am baffled and amazed by most of the comments being put forth condoning the degradation of women. I think this goes straight to the strength of indoctrination. Yes men and women are different physically and generally we are sometimes different of the mind as well, but certainly not in regards to intelligence and understanding. Why women drag their family to any church on Sunday morning to be taught that they can't participate in any way except in a menial way is beyond my comprehension. It's also beyond my comprehension why any women or person for that matter would let anyone else even a spouse let them make decisions for them. Happiness is being in control of your own life. Without that control we become miserable wether it's in marriage or work. At home you let someone make decisions for you, at church you're told women are good enough or equal and then if your husband allows you to work your told what to do all day? I think you've been the victims of indoctrination.
Rad Man, TOTALLY CONCUR. I, for the life of me, find it totally plausible that women are the main ones who participate and contribute to their churches yet they are third class citizens as far their respective religion goes. They buy into the premise that they are inferior to men and must be submissive to them. How can they logically adhere to a religion that is misogynic.
For instance, the Roman Catholic religion is misogynic on its primary and secondary premise. Women, according to Roman Catholicism, are nothing but receptables and vessels. Roman Catholicism is totally against women's control and free exercise of her reproductive destiny. More fundamentalistic Protestantism, for example Southern Baptist assert that women are to get men assume the leadership role. My response is this totally inanity and atavistic, medieval logic is WTF?
Why do women continue to subject themselves to religious authority when they know that by its premise, this religious authority and dogma is atavistically misogynic to say the least. Are some women so uncertain of themselves that they need someone to constantly tell them what, when, and how to think? As a postmodern feminist, I am totally incensed by this. Women, wake up please and assess the situation!
Many women don't want control. They want to be taken care of. Why do they call themselves girls? Why do they conduct themselves like children around men? Sorry, I don't think those women are taken advantage of. They willingly submit in order not to have to take responsibility.
Not all women are like that, but the ones who play the game are just as at fault as the men in keeping other women from their full potential.
Yes, because of indoctrination. This is what they have been taught.
I don't think so radman. I think it is a mindset of many women, whether religious or not. A Peter Pan complex, you could say. They just don't want to grow up. A lot of women don't want to work. They simply want to stay home, even if there are no kids or the kids are in school.
You could call it indoctrination if you want, but I don't consider it religious indoctrination. A lot of women want to be kept and they aren't dumb enough to believe they will be kept if they don't play dumb.
I would say yes at this point. Willing to bend my opinion if I see some evidence to the contrary.
I also see some women wanting to "regain control," whereas what they are really wanting is total control over everyone and everything. Yet when they get even near to that realisation, they get fearful of "what have I taken on? I need to off-load the responsibility here.... where's a man, let him deal with it!"
I am something of a misogynist. Mainly because I don't have the patience to put up with your funny logic sometimes. Also because I don't have the skills to communicate with you.
Beyond that, I try to respect women, and work along with you...... if that seems impossible or just plain confronting, I can and do walk away.
Is that being too honest?
I remember a few years ago when my wife would drag me and my three boys to mass. I would of course pay a little attention as I could as to not become offended, then one day I noticed a family with a few girls sitting there and it struck me. This lady is bring her girls to worship in a place that treat girls like second class citizens. We would allow this in a public company as a matter of fact it's illegal and yet women continue to pay and give to people who have no respect for them as people.
Some men just can't handle a real woman!
Sure, some women are not real women. These fake women confuse real men.
I sound confused? You're the one talking about REAL women. I thought they were all real, unless born male. Or do you think some women are more real than others?
I think that the poster was talking about women who are secure in their femininity and are not afraid to access and harness their true feminine power. The poster was referring to pure and unadultered feminine power.
It is a figure of speech. Of course, you know that, but you would rather waste time being generally contentious about petty, trifling matters than do something productive for your family . . . like a real man.
There you go again, trying to define what REAL is. REAL man make money, REAL women stay home. The problem with the word is it can be taken differently depending on the context, it's vague. So the next time you want to insult my manhood, say something like "like a Strong, attentive or productive man". If your going to insult at least do it right.
It's probably something left over from our biological evolution. There was once a survival advantage in male and female humans raising offspring together, with each having functional specialisms reflected in the physical differences between them, i.e. the characteristics that result from males having higher levels of testosterone, females higher levels of estrogen compounds. These differences allowed each to carry out different types of task more effectively (e.g. breastfeeding an infant, killing animals for food and protection etc).
My guess is that historically the deference to males by females was rooted in the fact that males happened to be the physically stronger sex and were responsible for providing resources and protection. Females and offspring are vulnerable during the gestation period and were dependent on males for those resources and protection. Deference and compliance to the male is more likely to result in paternal support than being challenging and defiant. Also being physically stronger, males could use force to compel compliance in females. Not an option available to most females (although females adapted other ways of controlling the behaviour of males!).
Over time the evolutionary advantage of bi-parental care and the differences between sexes developed into the social constructs of marriage and gender roles. When these were codified through religious texts, the deference to males by females was too, turning it into a moral imperative rather than just a pragmatic behaviour between different sexes. It was then used politically (unwittingly or not) as a way of sustaining the status quote to the benefit of one social group over another (in this case men over women).
Today societal roles previously based on the physical differences between the sexes are fast becoming obsolete. Therefore if a coupling between two people is desired by both, and harmony is their goal, it's probably more important that both are willing to accept the other's wants, needs and ideas as being as valid and important as their own, and then be willing to make reasonable compromises when faced with a conflict of interest. If someone makes a free, conscious decision to "submit" to another, fine. I don't think it's helpful to expect it though. Besides there is all sorts of issues thrown up by the fact that today a husband and wife may not necessarily be a male and female.
You articulated your points well and are very eloquent! However, I believe your perspective is fundamentally skewed. Because I am Christian, I will speak for Christianity, which I am going to assume is one of the religions you would consider patriarchal.
Women in the Bible are not weak, oppressed, flakes who are subjugated by men. The women in the Bible who are seen as honorable are compassionate, brave, intelligent, dignified, and servant-hearted. By servant-hearted I do not refer to obsequiousness, but to a heart that wishes to show love by giving preference to others. Think of Esther, who risked her life by addressing the king, so as to protect her race, the Jews, from slaughter. Think of Deborah, who led an army into battle to save her people from oppression. Think of Ruth, who compassionately stayed with her mother in law, though she was not required to after her husband died, to serve her, help her, and take care of her. These are women the Bible honors.
Also, it is important to make the distinction that women are not called to be submissive to men. Wives are called to be submissive to their husbands. If a women were submissive to all men there is no way she could be submissive to her husband as well. Here is where complimentarianism comes in. Complementarianism is the idea that men and women are equal but have differing roles and purposes. The man/women relationship, specifically between husband and wife, is symbolic of the relationship between God and his people. Women are called to be submissive to their husbands because the Church is called to be submissive to God. But, remember it is a symbol of Christ and his church, so the husband is called to love his wife as Christ loved the church. How did Christ love the church? With mercy, blessing, and abundant sacrifice. So, in an ideal, Christian, husband/wife relationship, the women allows her husband to lead in decision making, but the husband respects his wife and gives her preference as much as possible. In essence, they complement each other. This creates for an equal partnership, where both parties make decisions together, but the relationship still reflects God and his church. It is also important to remember that men and women are both equally under the authority of God.
Also, I assume by sexual power you are referring to sexual freedom, meaning sexual activity that occurs outside of marriage. You are right, the Bible does consider this evil, but not solely among women, but among anyone.
In regards to your example of the Middle Ages, that was five hundred years ago, during a time when people were poorly educated, and therefore took the word of Catholic authorities as gospel rather than studying the actual Word of God.
In regards to my own views on abortion I believe that when a women becomes pregnant it isn't just her body anymore. She is sharing it with another, human organism who deserves a chance to live. However, those are my own, personal views.
Lastly, women are not feared in Christianity. Women are respected. Today, opening a door for a women, pulling out her chair, paying the dinner bill, these are things that are considered disrespectful to a women, as though the man is assuming she is too weak to do these things on her own. Quite the contrary. By doing this men are serving women and it is a sign of respect and care.
I don't understand why gender must be so divisive. Why must it be men vs women? The truth is men and women are different. Equal, yes, but different. There is no denying it, biologically. We are equal, but we are not the same. We were meant to complement one another, not fight one another.
I hope you understand that although I disagree with you, I respect your opinion and think that you articulated it very intelligently.
gmwilliams, thanks for the hub, but I must respectfully disagree with your conclusions on this matter, and really even the premise of the argument.
MasonZgoda, I could not have said it better.
Organized, patriarchical religions throughout history have demonized women and marginalized their sexuality. Women's sexuality, especially in the Western religions, was viewed as evil. The status of women in such religions was severely regulated and women were told to subvert their sexuality and being to male authorities. Remnants of such ideas are existing today in terms of women's right to reproductive health and freedoms. The subject of women's control over their bodies is a source of contention in many religions today.
Male religious authorities, particularly the Roman Catholic Church, seem to be on the vanguard when it comes to abortion and contraception. Their premise is that women are to have no say regarding their reproductive destiny and to be passive receptacles regarding reproductive. Furthermore, many more conservative religions are against having women in powerful positions in the church, they must be always in the subjugate positions whether as nuns and/or assistants. While liberal Protestant and Jewish religions have rabbis and ministers, the more conservative religions such as Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and Orthodox Judaism refuse to acknowledge and permt women in such positions and they still believe that women are lesser than men.
Most of the church participators, activists, and contributors are women yet they are powerless in their particular church. They are also subjected to their particular religion's misogynist teachings and doctrines. However, these women refuse to study and clearly analyse this, blindly accepting and explaining away their religious doctrine and teachings. I refuse to understand this. If something or someone does not respect you and/or your essence, it is best to leave and discontinue association with that particular thing or person. These women are so enamored of being in a religion that they refuse to see the detriments and the dark misogynic underminings of their particular religions.
gmwilliams, I will say that you may have a point regarding particular religions and how they keep women at near slave level (or at least demean them). Islam, for example is a particularly harsh religion towards women and does not allow much leniency towards their rights.
However, ‘do not throw the baby out with the bathwater’ and make a sweeping assertion about all ‘organized, patriarchical religions’. My defense is for Christianity, with regards to your perspective. I am a part of a church, and denomination, which accepts women in ministry as completely fine and normal. So, your belief that a woman has to basically ‘bend the knee’ to the man if she is a part of such a religion is really false.
Also, when there are particular issues which cross over from being just about women to something more then it may make sense that religions might have something to say about it. When it comes to abortion the primary focus, for many religions, is no longer just on the woman because there is another life involved. There is a new life which is growing inside the woman and this is why there is controversy over abortion; the argument is not whether the woman can live, breathe, and be happy it is whether this new life can live, breathe, and be happy, because the woman already has those opportunities.
You are quite welcome indeed. Have a Blessed Day.
Have a look in the dictionary to see the meaning of the word, 'submissive' and you'll find nothing in there referring to equality. Also, have a look at the word, "misogyny" to see what the Church is in fact based upon.
What's the world coming to? Two atheists telling women to have some self respect.
You're both misguided on the teaching of submission. The bible says to submit to one another... and this is a willing submission not a forced submission. You have to understand that the other side of this teaching is that the man would love the woman as Christ loves the church... he is not enabled to be abusive under these teachings... it is a simple teaching that there be a leader and a follower. Life works peacefully this way, but there is never supposed to be a lack of respect on either side.
Or more precisely, you don't know the meaning of the word, 'submission'.
Submission is not required at all in a relationship because it accomplishes little more than humiliation and degradation of the person. It is merely another failed concept from the bible based upon the misogynist mindset of Bronze Age thinking.
Submission does not garner or support respect, whatsoever.
You're wrong as usual... also, you're a...
Never mind, I don't want to be banned from HP's b/c of you.
Don't you have ppl in real life to spew your hateful, ignorant views on?
So, because I don't agree with your ridiculous religious beliefs, you need to toss out personal insults? Terrible behavior.
If I'm wrong, you need to show that. Of course, you can't.
No, lots of ppl don't agree with me, they just seem to be able to summon the ability to converse like a respectable adult. You on the other hand have a closed mind and a dark heart. Your name fits you aptly. I'm through listening to your garbage. You have no respect for anyone and you're full of hate. Deal with the truth.
Wow, more personal insults. Terrible, but typical Christian behavior.
Still can't stick to the subject matter? Can't show why folks are wrong, they just are because you believe they are. Hilarious.
Is this how you feel about all believers? I thought I have had conversations with you without calling you names.
I've tried having many reasonable conversations with him. I was especially patient with him the first time he carried on his usual assault. He ended up getting banned. I had no knowledge of this. He came after me by email and my hubs posting hateful mail blaming me for being the cause. I didn't even know how to report him at the time. Since then Ive asked him numerous times to not address me cause his only goal is to fight. It is my opinion that no one should be a doormat for abuse... we're just sharing thoughts and opinions here, if he can't play nice... he should take the bench.
Totally agree. Everyone has a right to have his/her voice. There is no one correct opinion, all are valid and should be expressed and respected.
I've had a few discussions with ATM as well, and quite frankly, I respect him. We don't always see eye to eye and his responses can be viewed as being harsh at times. The thing to remember about him (that I had to learn) is that his responses are not meant to be personally against the individual, just the beliefs. I am able to separate my personal self from my beliefs in an effort to discuss and debate at times because I know that, at least for me, some of my beliefs can be seen as crazy from both atheists as well as fellow believers. One of the important things that may help keep things from escalating too much is avoiding resorting to name calling. Most people jump on that sort of thing as un-Christianlike behavior and can use that against us (and they typically do)
Keep the faith and stay strong in your convictions enough to where you can express your beliefs without getting too emotional and you (personally, not your beliefs) will gain some measure of their respect (not saying it is important to you)
More lies. How very sad you feel compelled to do such things.
I'm not sure why you are hostile with ATM. He appears to be a supporter of equal rights and respect for women. Is that something you are opposed to?
Im not sure if you've read the majority of his posts. If I said God wants men to love their wives, he would say God doesn't exist and I am a fool for saying so. His goal seems to be consternation and nothing more.
I do understand, but if you say stuff like "humans should love and respect each other" instead of "God wants Men to love their wives" he will leave you alone. Promise.
Sorry, there is a lack of respect for someone who is purposefully submitting there opinions and desires to the waste side. How far does this submission go, does your husband come home and say "I truly love you but you need to be barefoot and pregnant and converse with no one outside this house"? Do you say yes sir would you like your feet washed with that? A lack of respect for the women by the man and by the woman.
Radman, I always appreciate you.
hmmm... How can I explain submission in a way that wont come across distasteful?
Every woman has her own personality. Some are women who love to be dominated. I personally don't want to be dominated except maybe in the bedroom. Not that you asked for that bit of info, but like I said we all have different personalities.
My friend and mentor who recently died was very strong willed. She needed a man who was also very strong or she said she would have steam rolled him.
The idea is that marriage is a relationship very much like the relationship between man and God.
God allows man to have his own free will, but does that mean man should dismiss God and do what ever he pleases or should he follow God's teachings which are to love and live uprightly? It is a willing submission we offer God.
Now, does that mean all men act in a godly manner? No, some fail at loving their wives and children the way God loves us, but we are all works in progress... hopefully in time that man will mature and become the man wants him to be... and if he's very lucky, his wife and kids will still be there to love and forgive him for any past mistakes.
All the churches I attend counsel women to get out of any abusive situation. If they know what they are doing, they will counsel the man and hold him accountable for any abusive behavior.
But again, the point the Bible makes is 1) men love your wives as Christ loves the church and 2) women submit to your husbands and 3) submit to one another. It is not the misogynistic idea that many non-believers assume.
Yes it is because you have different roles for the sexes. People are individuals, some men also like to be dominated and told what to do. These are things that need to be worked out by the couple, not some church telling the man to dominate his dominate wife when he doesn't want to.
Don't you see, women have been fighting for equal rights for years and they get it everywhere but the church that is supposed to be about love and tolerance. The OT, especially Genesis is all about distain for women. Women are treated like cattle for the most part, if anything all churches should be treating people as equals with separate rules for the sexes.
Domination is not a part of it, you misunderstand this point.
If you have a business, there is an order involved is there not?
Life would be anarchy without this order. Children have rights too, does that mean they should rule their households?
I have the same rights my husband does. I share every thought and opinion freely. You believe you understand this concept, but you don't because you have been indoctrinated to believe it is what you think it is. I can't help you understand it until you open your mind.
My mind is completely opened. You are giving men and women specific roles instead treating them as people that can figure out the roles on their own. A marriage doesn't need a leader. A marriage needs two people who love and respect each other. You think a marriage needs a leader because that's what you've been taught.
A marriage needs two people who love and respect each other.
I completely agree, as does the Bible. You cannot wrap your mind around a loving and godly man. Maybe you have never met one. Im sorry for that.
You agree, but think the husband needs more respect, as he make decisions for you.
No, he doesn't need *more respect. I just step aside and allow him to lead. You would have to understand quite a bit about the Bible and its teachings to understand this point alone.
See, the Bible teaches that God leads the husband, (not that He doesn't lead me personally). But when it comes to the family, God gives the husband insight to the way He would have them go. God can also use the wife if the husband is off track. If a husband is a humble and godly man, he will listen when his wife gives him advise. My husband is a humble man and I respect that about him more than almost anything else. He is extremely intelligent and also very kind... so I find it easy to allow him to lead. However I have strengths he doesn't, like being intuitive for example, so I bring that to the relationship. It is not extremely complicated or overly simple, but it does require understanding. I am able to shed some light on the matter.
Im actually running out the door now. Talk to you all later.
You can try to make this make sense all day, but it won't work. By stating that God gives men direction before women is something men would tell you to have dominance and control. The bible was written by men who had very little respect for women.
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NIV
If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekelsof silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
Numbers 31:13-18 NLT
But Moses was furious with all the generals and captains who had returned from the battle.
“Why have you let all the women live?” he demanded. “These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the Lord at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the Lord’s people. So kill all the boys and all the women who have had intercourse with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.
Leviticus 21:9 NLT
If a priest’s daughter defiles herself by becoming a prostitute, she also defiles her father’s holiness, and she must be burned to death.
Well, I do not subscribe to the atavistic premise that men lead and women follow. Remember, the adage me Tarzan, you Jane. This is the 21st century, men and women are equal partners. Women can lead as well as men and men can also be followers.
Such gender stereotyping ended in the mid20 century for most of us. Of couse, the bible was written by men. Rad Man, you know that and I know that but many people aver that it was "divinely inspired." Where is the logic in that, please tell me. Well I tell you, there is NONE.
The issue is not that it is divinely inspired.. There is logic in that, the issue is that people think that "divinely inspired" means exactly the same thing as "divinely given" and refuse to acknowledge that the book was written by men that all have their own ideas of how things should be instead of what they really are
Tell me, if you know and understand this, why listen to the 2000-4000 ranting of men of questionable ethics?
Because I don't listen to all of it. Also, I don't hold to my belief as an absolute certainty.. If I gave you my story and what I believe and why, you'd think I was just as nuts as a lot of my fellow believers do. Long story short, I hold to my "belief" as an optimistic (of sorts) opinion instead of an absolute certainty. I also don't operate under the reward/punishment system now do I think that anyone who doesn't believe as i do are going to Hell. I've stated this before that If there is a hell to speak of and a place of judgment, then there will be a lot of so- called "Christians" are going to be very surprised as to where they end up
We do, it's called misogyny. It is outdated thinking.
So, God talks to your husband and tells him what to do?
Then, there is no need for submission because that will only serve to remove the respect.
Is every decision in your household a joint decision that both you and your wife decide and sign off on, Rad?
You need to first look up the word in the dictionary to understand the meaning of the word so you aren't using it in error.
Submission only serves to humiliate and degrade, it is not needed in any relationships.
Of course, do away with the submission and you'll do away with the abuse.
There's an alternate definition for "submission," and it's "being a doormat."
you're absolutely right. hopefully I have stated clearly that the bible does not teach that version of the word.
Beth, Even as a believer, I can see how the bible can be viewed as teaching that version. One thing to remember is that the most universally used version of submit and it's variations is that it is synonymous with obedience. Add to that the way hebrew women were treated at that time along with indoctrination by people seeking to keep the world as a male dominated society also have turned the word into a curse word
I was not taught that version. As Ive stated repeatedly, I was taught that the translation was not the doormat version, it is the version of a willing submission. If I had time, I would look up the translation for you however I am getting ready for work atm. I am a willing partner in supporting our family. I will leave my burka at home. Bye for now
Then, the bible is misusing or misunderstanding the word, as well.
No, brother. The idea is, ". . . husbands and wives submit to one another."
Now, do you see how a successful relationship will grow from a foundation of giving and love? It is a partnership of mutual respect and recognition. So it should be.
+1. Biblically accurate and well articulated. Thank you MasonZgoda.
I am something of a misogynist. Mainly because I don't have the patience to put up with your funny logic sometimes. Also because I don't have the skills to communicate with you.
LOL... so you hate us b/c of your own failings. No, I don't think that's too honest. I think it's time someone said it out loud.
Yes, logic and skills appear not to be part of your intellect.
No need to make up more lies about me. Where did I say I hated you or anyone else?
You create a lie and you want to say it out loud? That's very odd.
I would never use that word "hate." I did say that I try to respect women. That excludes hate. Would you like to try a bit of respect for men, instead of blaming?
I freely admit that much of my "problem" has come from my childhood years, when it was easier to run away from the difficulties in communicating, for one reason or the other. Now, whenever I meet a woman who is willing to look inside herself, at her own "stuff," and be honest with herself, she and I get on fabulously.... we learn to communicate by "doing it." A never ending story!
Maybe it's just me but I haven't met a woman who doesn't speak her mind and do what she wants in decades...
By the way, my ex-wife (a lawyer) did some research on that whole submitting to a husband thing and came up with an interesting conclusion: submit was not intended to be in the context of deference or giving in; it was in the context of giving the man her opinion (as in submitting a report to your boss for instance) and he in turn takes it to God. She gave a talk to a women's group at her church and they thought she was a genius.
Isn't it fascinating... So many claim to let the husband lead, but if you press them on it you'll find out they do what they want. It's almost like, you can make all the decisions as long as you run them past me first.
I don't understand why you're so contrary. It's not *that hard to understand and I tried many times to explain it. Why can't ppl just say "I don't get it, but I respect your right to believe it."
Thank you suburban poet. I really appreciate your input!
Oh I have complete respect for you and I do understand. I just don't agree.
Mindgames to the multillionth degree. Relationships should be based upon equal parity and respect. Equality, not the premise that men lead and women follow. That premise reminds me of the scenario, me Tarzan, me man,king, you Jane, you woman, slave.
The premise indicates ownership and the idea of the woman as property and the lesser. That premise is not for the postmodern woman. If anyone talks to me about submission, I will GO THERE........... Let a man lead me and I follow? When Alaska becomes a tropical, Pacific paradise. I am a feminist/womanist from the 1970s and I DO NOT play that!
I would like to add that the premise that the man leads and the woman follows is a precursor to domestic and other forms of abuse. That attitude shows that women are second class citizens, not worthy of respect. This attitude sometimes lead to rape and other forms of sexual abuse.
Now THAT, to me, is a conversation. Thanks, I can address that.
It is definitely NOT supposed to be a Tarzan/Jane situation. Im sure there are men (and even women) who might want to make it that, but that is not what Jesus teaches. How can a man be humble and dominate a woman? How can a man love (in the true sense of the word) a woman and take away her ability to think, reason and thrive? If the verse states that a man should love his wife as Christ loves the church, then shouldn't we say, "how did Christ love the church?" Well, He lived as an example, he healed, he spent time with, he provided for and he ultimately laid down his life as a sacrifice for her.
I was taught that what his leadership is - is an umbrella... a covering for a man's wife and children. When done correctly, I promise you, it's actually quite a beautiful practice. Not at all the ugly picture you might have in your head.
Please remember that I'm giving you personally my respect as a person and what I'm about to write is not an attack on you personally, but on what you've been taught.
You were taught that what his leadership is - is not you (because you're a women).
So much for being equal in the eyes of God?
The thing is, I have explained it over and over, but you keep going back to your original opinion that the scales are unequally balanced. I'm trying to explain that it isn't what you might think, but you can't break out of the same box you want to fit it into. One has to be willing to open their mind to consider that something is different than they might imagine it. Please consider some of the things Ive said.
I consider all of what you say, are you considering anything of what I say?
We have considered what you've said and you are wrong.
Yes, I understand you want the universe and reality to be a certain way, but it doesn't exhibit what you want it to.
That would obviously be a lie because we both know reality exhibits exactly the same thing for you as it does for me and everyone else on the planet.
Or, can you show otherwise?
Didn't think so.
One word, 'submission'
It's not in our heads, it's in the abuse of women and the requirements to deal with that within the Church and the sky rocketing divorce rate amongst Christians.
We do get it, but we don't respect it, it does not deserve respect because it does not offer respect, like so many religious beliefs.
Of course I am... I just don't think you understand our goal. What God is telling a man is that He is holding him responsible... that He has placed this family in the man's care and He expects him to love and care for them as He cares for His own.
God has expectations for the woman too, and that isn't just the traditional things you might believe.
In Proverbs 31, a queen gives her son her best advice for him in choosing a good wife, but first she tell him what kind of man he should be.
Advice for him:
She tells him not to drink, lest he oppress people and deprive them of their rights.
To speak for those who can't speak for themselves and for the destitute.
Speak up and judge fairly to defend the rights of the poor and needy.
And in choosing a wife.
She should have noble character.
He should have full confidence in her.
She should bring him good and not harm.
She should be a hard worker.
She should be able to deal with her household and deal with merchants and trade profitably.
She should be able to make decisions like buying land and planting fields.
She should help the poor and needy.
She should have strength and dignity, wisdom and honor.
Her children and husband should honor her with their words
Charm and beauty are deceptive, but she should have a fear of God. (Meaning she should honor God in all she does.)
Hopefully this gives you a better view of a godly woman. This is the goal a Christian woman is striving for. It's not an ideal for the faint of heart and it may take a lifetime to achieve these goals, but it's something of great value to aim for.
But, in reality (try joining it sometime) we as individuals have chosen our spouses, they have not been placed before us by God. If that were the case, Christian divorce rates would be zero, yet they sky rocket.
It gives us a snapshot of the misogynist mindset and the perfect Bronze Age woman.
Women are not like that, anymore. Some have brains and can think for themselves.
Submitted for those who say you don't make things personal... lol
Confused by having a mirror held up by a stranger.
You are insulting and abusive. The very thing you say you fear for Christian relationships. God save women from "forward-thinking" men like you.
A Troubled Man is a woman. Hello?! The internet is a tricky, man made astral plane where we project virtual beings.
lol.. what are you talking about? Are you saying metaphorically he is a woman or physically he is a woman? and if he is actually a woman, how do you know/ what does it matter?
1. We go way back.
2. It is an interesting social phenomena.
Soul Man Dancing is merely another sockpuppet created by a troll who has been banned permanently form these forums many times, but he keeps coming back with another userid. Never learns.
Yes, I understand you believe that because I criticize and ridicule your cherished beliefs. That is entirely the problem, that most believers are unable to distance themselves from their beliefs in order to talk about them.
Then, they marry Christian men and get abused because they don't submit to them, followed by an ugly divorce.
You assume everything and seem to know nothing... I wonder if you've ever known any ppl outside of your belief system?
No, you do not insult my beliefs only, you insult me. You said women like me were brainless and you make constant comments like this. I do not claim to be Einstein, but I assure you sir, I am not without intellect. You criticize that which you do not comprehend. I believe that leaves you on the ignorant side. I have tried to enlighten you, but I guess there are things you cannot fathom. So that's why I do very little conversing with you. You sir, are stuck.
"You assume everything and seem to know nothing... I wonder if you've ever known any ppl outside of your belief system?
No, you do not insult my beliefs only, you insult me. You said women like me were brainless and you make constant comments like this. I do not claim to be Einstein, but I assure you, mam, I am not without intellect. You criticize that which you do not comprehend. I believe that leaves you on the ignorant side. I have tried to enlighten you, but I guess there are things you cannot fathom. So that's why I do very little conversing with you. You, mam, are stuck."
so basically insert mam in place of sir. ok, got it.
I won't be around much longer, today. It won't be long until that HP troll drops the dime on me. Take it easy.
So did you feel like you were a nerdy dweeb? We only spoke a few times. I feel bad that you felt lured. This wasn't my goal. I tried to explain that. I hope we can get past this. I don't like to be at odds with anyone.
We are not at odds. Think about it. I stepped in to communicate, not alienate. Avoid old patterns.
I never know what you're talking about. Im sorry... anyway... it was nice meeting you. (Oh, you edited a bit. lol) ok then, I wish you the best.
Sorry to be cryptic. Thank you. I only want the best for you!
I would like the best for me as well... and Im definitely working towards that goal.
Thanks for caring.
You are so funny. One minute you're tearing me apart, the next you're complimenting me. Im the same me all the time and Im honest about it.
I enjoyed meeting you too... most of the time.
I never tore you apart. I simply stated that your husband should drop you like a hot rock. If you are in a loveless relationship without a mutual exchange of healthy affection while you are running a love/lust game on internet Bozo's, then why play house? It is a sucker's game. Why broadcast your dysfunction?
I am an artist. Many married women have run that line by me, "I haven't had sex with my husband in over a year."
A few times, I took the bait. Want to see my scars? Now, I am allergic.
Senor, that is not my story. My husband fell away from God and cheated on me numerous times. I was left alone for 2 years, then when he went thru recovery, I was left alone for 3 more years. I signed the divorce papers but he was unwilling, so we lived in the same house in separate bedrooms which allowed the kids to have 2 parents who loved them and lived for them to take care of them.
I took part in many online relationships (and told my husband, I didn't keep secrets from him) during that time.
It was literally in the last 2 weeks that we have been trying to reconcile. I don't really appreciate my story being misrepresented. Again, I will print our whole FB conversation if you want me to. I never tried to lure you into anything. I actually told you I would need to defriend you if necessary b/c I hadn't taken part in online relationships in months. I really don't know what happened on your end, but you seemed to change drastically over night. I'm sorry if I did something to mislead you.
While I deeply and sincerely am sorry for the predicament with your husband, the story does make a strong argument for the results of submission.
Christian and non Christian husbands cheat all the time. You would have to know our story to understand what happened, however I doubt you read a lot of hubs... you seem to mainly focus on the forums?
1. Knock yourself out.
2. No, you did not mislead me. You just throw out more personal info in public than is appropriate. I was trying to give you a heads up, but I guess you missed it.
Are you and a troubled man the same person? it's like tag-teaming here.
I have the right to share my story should I choose to. I had a father, I'm not looking for a new one. My story is what motivates me to write presently. I'm pretty sure Im not alone in this. What do you want from me? I can't figure you out for the life of me.
1. Bad guess, but I understand the sentiment. I have had more than a dozen at a time tag-teaming my ass. i sent them crying home to Big Brother.
2. Sure, and you can tell us when your hemorrhoids flair up.
3. I have daughters, and I am not looking for another one.
4. Your story? The way you tell it is provokes active participation from the uninitiated.
6. Like I told you. I am just another writer. I have done a good job engaging in your role playing exercises.
Maybe you should consider a change of style and broaden your audience.
I honestly don't understand. Ive not invited you to participate in anything.
I don't know what you want me to do or say.
1. I see that.
2. But . . . you did. You know that you are chumming.
3. Save it for the tourists.
This is why I blocked you on FB. You appear to be somewhat unbalanced. If I'd have wanted to participate with you in an online relationship, I simply would have. Had we met a few months earlier, Im sure we would have. I had many online relationships... the fact that we didn't should tell you I wasn't looking for one. I don't know what else to tell you.
Ha ha ha! You blocked me because you didn't like what I had to say about your chum line. I am just a writer, darlin'. Some of my characters are unbalanced, though.
Maybe you could just stop talking to me and that way you wouldn't have to accuse me of luring you?
You never lured me, but your style is provocative and alluring. I just walked down the road with you for awhile. No harm, no foul. I'm cool with your gig, if you are.
I don't have a gig. Im just me. Quit attacking ok? Its very confusing.
Now, wait a minute, here. I am not attacking you. Let me take another run at it.
Maybe you are just alluring. Or . . . you are alluring.
Quit it, you're doing it again. You beat me up then you appeal to a part of me that Im trying to drown off... You say you're on my side, but I can't figure out if you're a good guy or a bad one.
I did not beat you up. I only pushed you. Please don't call the law!
So are you just gonna keep dropping by, throwing a wrench in the works or can we just get along like normal ppl?
It is hard to get rid of trolls while you are still feeding them.
He's not a mean troll, he's seems like a nice and normal person, not at all the kind of troll I am used to. More like a friend, but then he seems to have issues with me out of no where. I don't know... I don't get very angry very often.
Do normal people spend a lot of time yammering on insignificant forums?
Sorry that your husband has been unfaithful. Sometimes people do stupid things. I find it strange that you're giving marriage advice as if you've got this all worked out. Perhaps he wasn't looking for you to be submissive after all? Just a question, I'm not judging.
Im not giving marriage advice. Im sharing my beliefs. Am I not allowed to do so b/c my husband failed me? If anything I believe we are a success story. We were just another statistic for divorce, but he sought out healing for all his failings with 12-step programs, therapy and godly counseling. He spent years trying to find his way into a solid relationship with God and sought my forgiveness. I thought I had forgiven him, I was kind to him and continued to take care of him. But at some point it occurred to me that I hadn't forgiven him. I prayed and prayed and all of a sudden one day, I had a desire to be close to him again. After being thru hell and back, we are working on our marriage. I am just now trying to return to God and it is somewhat challenging after having used different addictions to help me deal with all the pain I was enduring.
Again, this is *my story. You may have a different one, but I believe we are all more similar than we are different. I don't apologize for being open. I hope that my story may help others.
Thank you for your honest testimony. .I'm sure your story could serve as an example for other Christian couples that continually seek God for healing of broken marriages and trust..
Beth, we are only tearing your beliefs apart, we are not tearing you apart. And, while I understand you probably consider your beliefs to be a big part of you, they are not your arms and legs, they are ideals and beliefs of other people who lived a long time ago. You just happen to accept them as true.
I can understand how light works in great detail and I can experiment with light and confirm that understanding myself, but that understanding is merely an accepted idea based on facts and evidence, that which other people discovered, not me, hence it's not part of me in the same way my appearance, my thoughts, my imagination, arms, legs, my own discoveries, etc, are all part of me.
So, it's a matter of rounding up all of those beliefs and placing them at a distance, corralled and open for criticism. And, that should be easy to do considering there are millions of others who claim to share those beliefs and you would have at your disposal a tremendous amount of agreement and support from them.
You'll also have folks who don't agree and they'll tell you in no uncertain terms their opinions of those beliefs and how those beliefs have affected societies and people for centuries, often negatively. And, of course, they aren't doing anything to insult you personally, they are focusing entirely on the beliefs and the hard, cold facts associated with them.
That should be no problem for you because you never committed any of those heinous acts. But, since they are part and parcel to the religion, they need to be brought forth and acknowledged, often in stark contrast to the claims of believers.
Again, no one is focusing on you personally.
However, if a believer stands up and rejects, denies or ignores facts and evidence, then they are being dishonest. That too, needs to be brought forth and acknowledged. And, that's where it starts to get personal.
Have a look at Deepes Mind's posts to see what I'm talking about. He can easily stand at a distance and scrutinize his own belief system, find fault and flaws and openly acknowledge them based on their individual merit, credibility and validity. He also acknowledges views and observations of others here, you included, thus adding to his understanding.
That is the honesty we all come to expect, from everyone.
And, when you DO stand at a distance from your beliefs, we see the real you, and you appear to be a perfectly normal human being, compassionate and sincere.
Embrace those beliefs as part of you and you absorb all the negativity that goes along with it.
Say what you have to say on your own... you don't need "others" to validate your beliefs.
I appreciate you speaking respectfully to me for the first time. It makes you seem a lot more human.
I disagree with deepes mind's methods a bit, I will be honest with you, but we are not all alike and he has a right to address you as he chooses. Thanks for the first real conversation Ive had with you.
Once again, to be clear, I don't hold beliefs, nor have a belief system.
I have not disrespected you at all, I have been disrespecting your religious beliefs. Huge difference.
His methods are based on being honest about his beliefs, do you disagree with being honest?
He has the right to address us honestly, and he is practicing that right. If that is a right you don't wish to practice, should we then offer our respect?
Id rather not discuss my feelings concerning his methods. It's his right to communicate freely.
Anyway, take care.
Again, his methods are that of being honest with his beliefs and communicating them. Why would you not want to discuss that?
I am very honest. Ive tried to communicate with you openly and honestly. You appreciate his communication style better and I support your right to do that.
I don't like to argue, which is why I avoid these threads as much as possible, but sometimes I am drawn in by a subject or maybe b/c there is a lack of a thread I find more interesting... in any event....
Hello! Yes, I am a Christian, with all my good points and failings. You are not, and I'm sure you have good points and failings too. Nice to meet you. I hope all is going well in your day.
I appreciate her not wanting to talk about me and express her feelings about me and my feelings. As far as I know, she would only be basing her feelings on the short interaction she and I had (which she thought I was passive aggressively attacking her) as well as seeing my interactions with you. I'm not sure if she has read any of my hubs to get a feel for anything that I specifically believe otherwise so thee is the possibility of there being limited objectivity regarding her feelings regarding me.
I see the honesty and openness in her discussions with me and others here. We've all arrived at our different levels of belief (or non belief) in different ways as according to the things we have learned about life as well as our understanding and perception of those things. Because of that, we can only be open and honest about our opinions regarding specific topics and situations.
Thank you beth
Hi Beth!! Hope you are doing well.
Maybe I missed something, but the only thing I noticed that we disagreed on was ATM. The funny thing about that disagreement is that the only thing we truly (for the most part) disagree on is how we actually SEE the situation.. We both agree that his views about religion in general are very strong. We also agree that his approach and responses are very strong as well and, from our perspectives, very aggressive. The only way I note that we are different is in how we handle the approach. I choose not to take it personally for 2 reasons: 1) I like to discuss and debate with all people regardless of their approach. It helps me to push my thinking as well as adjust my vocabulary in order to strengthen my points. 2) ATM is another person on a computer, just like me, just like Rad, just like you. I do not know any of you personally and as such, you do not have any affect (positive or negative) on my life once I step away from my computer. I respect everyone here while I'm here, but when I unplug from the matrix, that's it. ATM is not accountable to me for his behavior, nor are you (though you are a very nice and respectful lady to me). At the end of the day, our accountability is to God (if there is one, out of respect to the atheists here).
I've read some of your hubs, and I'm a fan.. You have a lot of interesting perspectives and make good points in the ones I read.. Keep up the good work
WOW!! an actual compliment (sort of) from ATM?? I am surprised.. Maybe there is a God that he actually complimented a believer..LOL
Not really, just a simple description of what's going on here. But, it appears to have fallen on deaf ears, anyways.
Obviously, I know a great deal more than you. Sorry, I have no belief system, but I do understand most believers operate on belief systems because they have never developed their minds to think rationally and objectively.
Once again, you are making up lies. I never called you brainless. That is the fault of your religious beliefs, making you say things that aren't true.
We have yet to see that.
Yes, I understand you are compelled to claim others don't understand your belief system and how it controls you. But, we do understand.
You have not enlightened anything or anyone, you have merely offered your belief system, and we have found it to be lacking.
A real woman would never lure needy dweebs, with their loins on fire, into eagerly participating in emotional adultery on the internet.
Although I have shared in numerous hubs about my life, I *never did that with you... and told you I was not interested in having a relationship with you. You told me you understood that and then got all crazy on me out of no where. I have always been 100% open and honest with anyone and everyone who asked. I don't have anything to hide. I would be happy to print the totality of our conversation on FB if you'd like me to, although I don't know what the rules are about that kind of thing here. I don't want to abuse the forum.
Who got crazy? I just pointed out flaws in the methodology, nothing personal.
My question is why do women continue to blindly follow such religions. Even in the western countries where they have a choice.
I haven't posted in this forum in like two weeks and the stream of notifications of others who are posting here is NEVER ENDING. I keep thinking someone has commented on my hub but then my excitement is brutally rebuffed by seeing "RandomUsername and 21 others have commented on…" *tears up* I can't take it! Please, my beautiful fellow hubbers, if you care at all for my sanity…agree to disagree.
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