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Are religionists poor thinkers, Indoctrinated, stuck in fear or all?

  1. earnestshub profile image88
    earnestshubposted 8 years ago

    I am beginning to feel that some religionists, especially of the evangelistic bent are either blind, cannot read, have been forbidden to learn, are indoctrinated or live in constant subconscious fear. Of course the usual religious forum disclaimer applies.

    I luvs yers all! smile

    1. chukra G profile image58
      chukra Gposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      they are blinded, they fear the satan will mislead them, but now even the god can't convince them. they tied their mind so tightly

    2. SparklingJewel profile image64
      SparklingJewelposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      In my experience,, it is not that they are blind, but that they can't define (to the acceptance of a non religious person)what they know and believe.

      I have spent many years trying to bring people together from the "sides" of belief and non belief. Each "side" has their own knowledge base and sense of understanding, it is the communication of that sense to the other side that is the challenge.

      Spiritual people vary in their abilities just as non spiritual people do. Nothing is clear cut, black and white. If you look for unifying factors, you will find them. big_smile

    3. cpedley profile image53
      cpedleyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      To be bigoted against Christians or those you consider less intelligent than yourself is not new, it is just revealing about your character. Instead of making statements of opinion have you ever thought of giving reasons for your ideas?

      It is the Hallmark of someone who has no answers to instead insult those he considers his opponents. Did you realize that?

      On the other hand we are all entitled to our own kind of bigotry in a free country are we not?

      Good luck.

    4. profile image0
      cosetteposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      i would have to say indoctrinated and forbidden to learn.

    5. glendoncaba profile image79
      glendoncabaposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      When I was doing my degree in media I was in a strong socialist ferment, and sometimes I almost gave in to "religion is opiate of masses".  But I held on to my faith.  Several years later while doing theology, the Berlin Wall came down and I felt vindicated.

      Right now we are challenged by Dawkins and other militant atheists.  For those who hold on by faith, the archaeological/scientific vindication will come.

      Where there is no room for doubt there is no room for faith.  There is a part of me that is incredibly analytical that must yield to faith in the Bible.  Some days are difficult.  Admittedly.  But I still stand with Jesus and fulfilled prophecy.

      1. Precious Pearl profile image75
        Precious Pearlposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        Jesus' life, death and resurrection fulfilled every prophecy of him that was written regarding his life here on earth.  No other person on earth has ever come close to the same thing.  Yes, this is one reason I believe in Him as well.

    6. loveofnight profile image82
      loveofnightposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      we all fall short in one way or another

    7. aka-dj profile image77
      aka-djposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Answer.
      None of the above.
      Just FREE. big_smile
      As a believer I actually have a choice. I can choose to believe, (a choice I exercised many years ago), and I can choose to NOT believe. I can walk any time I want.
      You (guys) on the other hand have closed the door to believing, so you are stuck with NO alternatives. cool

      1. earnestshub profile image88
        earnestshubposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        Who are "you guys"? There are thousands of different beliefs that you would need to define I believe.
        Many religionists cannot agree on who does the saving it seems, and can't even agree about what they believe!  smile

      2. Randy Godwin profile image93
        Randy Godwinposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        How does one choose to believe something which their logical minds tell them isn't true?  Is it like Jim Jones followers who drank the kool aid and gave it to their children?  Look where their faith took them.  To hell, according to the Bible and scriptures.

        1. aka-dj profile image77
          aka-djposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          My logical mind tells me it IS true. Just 'cause YOU don't see it that way, it must be "fairy tales and myths".
          If you can see it, feel it, taste it, etc using your natural senses, you don't need faith for it.
          I can tell you "I am rich", or "I am poor". From where you are, you have no physical evidence that I am either. You will have to take it by faith, or reject it because you have NO physical way of proving what I said was in fact true.
          I don't know about you, but every time I give a simple analogy like the above, it gets misunderstood. Oh well, the yoys of writing vs talking. big_smile

          1. Randy Godwin profile image93
            Randy Godwinposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            So many believer say they chose to believe in god.  As I stated before, I cannot make myself believe things I know are incorrect and illogical.  I suppose your god made me this way.  Some of us are doomed for hell and have been before your god created man.  Do you believe this?

      3. Pr0metheus profile image61
        Pr0metheusposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        That makes absolutely no sense.

        1. profile image0
          sandra rinckposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          I really doesn't does it.

          1. aka-dj profile image77
            aka-djposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            I love your smile.
            Much nicer than the shot of your back. big_smile

        2. aka-dj profile image77
          aka-djposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          Besides evolution, what else HAVE you got? hmm

          1. earnestshub profile image88
            earnestshubposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            What more is needed?

            2.2.1 Miller-Urey Model – Endogenous Pathways

            Biological compounds such as amino acids can be synthesized simply from the constituents of the prebiotic soup and the environmental conditions on the primitive Earth. The most widely accepted model for this phenomenon is Miller and Urey’s [5] . The experimental setup did account for an energy source, a reducing atmosphere, an aqueous environment, evaporation of the ocean and rainwaters, but was not able to simulate the effects of alternating day and night. This discovery was pivotal as it inspired a major effort on the part of others to determine whether other biologically important compounds were also present on the primeval Earth.

            1. aka-dj profile image77
              aka-djposted 8 years agoin reply to this

              We may never know.

              1. earnestshub profile image88
                earnestshubposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                Oh yes we will, and probably in my lifetime! smile

                1. getitrite profile image79
                  getitriteposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                  And even if we don't, this doesn't prove the existence of a god.  What, just by default?

            2. Bibowen profile image90
              Bibowenposted 8 years agoin reply to this

              Miller and Urey's results were produced in a controlled environment via a collaborative effort, based on thousands of prior experiments, all of which were also created in controlled environments and conceived of in the minds of their creators. What do you think Miller and Urey's findings offer evidence for?

          2. Pr0metheus profile image61
            Pr0metheusposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            I dunno, let me make something up.  I'll get back to you.

            1. Eaglekiwi profile image74
              Eaglekiwiposted 8 years agoin reply to this
    8. rebekahELLE profile image89
      rebekahELLEposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I have another word for it, brainwashed. I worked with a christian organization for a number of years and finally had to leave. I had never seen so much hypocrisy, lies, judgment of others, bickering, on and on. Many only allow the teachings of their particular religion to be of any relevance, everything else is wrong.

      I could never understand how they were preaching love, god is this and that, and yet they didn't live that way. they only loved people who agreed with them, had absolutely no tolerance for 'outsiders.' they find scripture to back up their way of thinking, but sadly and stupidly, anyone who does not believe their way does not have god's grace.

      everyone has their own beliefs and everyone has a right to believe what they choose to believe.  but I do believe that tolerance and acceptance suggest a worthy character.
      it will be interesting to see your responses here! wink

      1. sannyasinman profile image59
        sannyasinmanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        I agree with you absolutely. I was brought up a catholic, but the hypocrasy turned my stomach. An example - One of my aunts was battered by her husband. She went to the church for help, with her 3 children in tow. The priest turned her away because she had not been to church on Sunday for a while... . I have many more examples - as I am sure that we all do.

        1. earnestshub profile image88
          earnestshubposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          I could site a dozen similar experiences also. I find that many religionists do not understand that moral behavior is not related to religion, and all the structure they speak of such as legality and morals were available from many sources as the result of some thinkers of the time, they are not the invention of the bible. smile

    9. Precious Pearl profile image75
      Precious Pearlposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      We have the same show.  It is called "Are you smarter than a 5th grader?"  I am a believer in Jesus Christ and I have a relationship with Him.  Religion to me brings death not life.  Relationships enhance you and you are constantly learning when you are in one.  I learn just as you learn by reading, studying, watching educational information and spending time with others different from myself.  Nor am I the least bit fearful either subconsciously or consciously of learning new things but in the learning I don't have to believe in or accept what I am being taught.  Just as you don't.  Believing is a choice that we all make and what we believe is a choice as well.  So, I guess I don't fit your description of a "religionist" one bit. 

      Sending the love right back at you. ;-)

      1. Randy Godwin profile image93
        Randy Godwinposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        Once again a believer says they made a choice to believe in god.

        Did you also make a choice to ignore science?

        1. Precious Pearl profile image75
          Precious Pearlposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          No,I don't ignore science.  And yes, I made a choice to believe in God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.  I haven't believed all of my life ... I came to Him as an adult.

          1. Randy Godwin profile image93
            Randy Godwinposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            So you just said "I believe" and it was that easy?  You have to ignore science unless you do not believe the bible is god's word.  And if you do not believe the bible is god's word then you are not a believer.  This is, of course, what many of the other believers think.  But none of you guys can agree fully on your beliefs so who is right?

            1. Precious Pearl profile image75
              Precious Pearlposted 8 years agoin reply to this

              When you fall in love with someone it is because they touched your heart in some way and you wanted to get to know them better.  It is the same way with Jesus .. I spent time with Him and learned what I could about Him.  Some of that knowledge came through the Bible but other portions of it came directly from being in relationship with Him.  It is not important that we all agree on what we believe ... it is important that we agree on who we believe in.  The one thing that you will find is even if we disagree about doctrine we all agree on one important thing ... Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life.  Just as all scientist who believe in the Big Bang Theory may agree that it occurred they may never agree on how it occurred.  The Bible doesn't negate science in the least bit nor does all science negate the Bible.  The Case for Christ is a book that is written by a man who wanted to disprove the Bible and Jesus Christ.  He couldn't do it.

              1. Randy Godwin profile image93
                Randy Godwinposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                 

                I'll bet he didn't prove god existed either.  As far as science negating the bible, there may be a few scientists who would disagree with you.  Many believers state the earth is only a few thousand years old and dinosaurs existed in biblical times, others are intelligent enough to know better.

                1. Precious Pearl profile image75
                  Precious Pearlposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                  You'll have to read the book to find that one out.  I am sure that there are more than just a few scientist that would disagree with me that doesn't make them right.  Faith is believing in what you can't see or prove.  I don't need faith for science.  This discussion could go on and on ... Have a great night.  I must spend some time with my family.  I enjoyed our discussion.  Thank you for not being insulting or offensive.  I did appreciate that very much.

                  1. Randy Godwin profile image93
                    Randy Godwinposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                    I thank you for trying to explain to me why you believe as you do.  I am sincere about my logical nature preventing me from being able to disregard facts and logic.  Everyone can't go to heaven it seems.  I wonder what the quota for hell is?

                    Thanks again and enjoy your evening.

    10. getitrite profile image79
      getitriteposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      A variation of all of the above. The most commom and disturbing is constant subconscious fear. I think that one is shared with all religionists. They can be  illiterates  or PhD's.

    11. profile image0
      sandra rinckposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      How did I miss this one.  You know what I think... plug Religion is Dead unplug...

      I think they are people with good hearts that have been told so much crap that it is impossible for them to see any other way... perhaps the actual truth about the lies.

      I think fear has less to do with it because if they really did fear then they wouldn't do the things that they do right. 

      or my final option. I think they blindly worship what is formally known as Satan.

      1. earnestshub profile image88
        earnestshubposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        I think others on here share your view. smile

        1. tantrum profile image61
          tantrumposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          Yes !

    12. profile image0
      cosetteposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      all three.

      some of them, anyway.

      i am convinced i am not one anymore because i think and anlayze and question things...

    13. dentist83 profile image56
      dentist83posted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Well as a former religious fundamentalist, I have to say that the problem with many religion, in my case, protestantism, is the fear to go beyond the truth established by the church(because the church tells you that your salvation depends in not falling in any doctrine of error. ).  The rationale is that you can not question your pastor or  priest, because the are men of God that have revelation.  And if you do not believe what your church believe, you are not spiritual enough and you need more time for God to change your thoughts and your heart.  So basically dogmas and fear goes together. 

      The other rational is: "The bible is the Truth.  Do not look the truth by your self or in other place...read the Bible and if you do not understand it, ask me(religious leader) about it"

      So when you are not permitted to think by your self, you will end up believing many irrational things.

  2. Jerami profile image73
    Jeramiposted 8 years ago

    I think that the creator designed a empty spot in all of our hearts that he intended to fill. Unfortunately some  filled that spot with other stuff.

    1. earnestshub profile image88
      earnestshubposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      My heart is full. smile I hope yours is too! smile

  3. Jerami profile image73
    Jeramiposted 8 years ago

    I'm glad  me too

  4. earnestshub profile image88
    earnestshubposted 8 years ago

    You missed the point of the thread. It was to show bigoted religionists what their thread titles look like! We are entitled to an opinion, yes, but titles like most of those in the religios posts offer no room for opinion. smile

    Too close to the forest? smile

  5. Eric Graudins profile image60
    Eric Graudinsposted 8 years ago

    - If you are too lazy to think,
    - If you do not come to your own conclusions from what you see and hear,
    - and if you do not fill your mind with topics of your own choosing,

    Then religionists are only one of the many groups that have pre-prepared a brainfull of thoughts for you.

    1. earnestshub profile image88
      earnestshubposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      But religionists are so much more annoying than some. smile

      1. tantrum profile image61
        tantrumposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        Religionists are dictators

        1. glendoncaba profile image79
          glendoncabaposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          So are communists and fascists.  Well, fascists are usually religionists too.

        2. Eaglekiwi profile image74
          Eaglekiwiposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          You are not permitted to say this >>>>>>>>> lol

    2. Bibowen profile image90
      Bibowenposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Even a evangelical, indoctrinated neanderthal like myself could recognize that this comment has to win some award for talk without reflection.

      No one rethinks most things. The writings you read and the comments you make are full of the conclusions of others which you have not yet thought through. Education, in part, is learning what those assumptions are so that you can recognize them.

      Anyone that thinks that he has thought through most of those conclusions isn't thinking very hard. For a guy with two heads, you really should be doing better....

  6. Misha profile image76
    Mishaposted 8 years ago

    True dat Eric smile

  7. earnestshub profile image88
    earnestshubposted 8 years ago

    As you know, I disagree Glendon. smile
    I believe that every day masses of evidence is being gathered and collated by scientists who have no need of any outcome other than to find the truth for medical reasons or other good reasond, not to debunk religion.

    They will not be swayed by their leanings towards or away from religion, their computer models won't let them do that. smile

    1. glendoncaba profile image79
      glendoncabaposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Some days are difficult.  I am probably more scientific than many atheists.  I just haven't released my hold on the Christ of Calvary.

      But I have no rational answer for all questions my kids ask.  Just enough to give meaning to life, suffering, death, sin, and salvation.

  8. earnestshub profile image88
    earnestshubposted 8 years ago

    It astounds me how little adults know.
    We have a show in Australia "Do you know more than a fifth grader," Phd"s and others fail constantly to know more than these 10 year olds. smile

  9. DennisBarker profile image61
    DennisBarkerposted 8 years ago

    I heard a news story recently that neuroscience has identified the part of the brain that deals with all things spiritual.
    In my language thats the "crown chakra" in neuroscience its called something else. Yet, the thing we are talking about is the same region of the brain.........I just prefer different words to describe it.

    There is a place for science and rational thought and a place for faith and devotion.We are human because we have both available to us.

    A good choice of topic earnest, got me thinking again.

  10. shamelabboush profile image65
    shamelabboushposted 8 years ago

    I think they're phobic!

  11. DennisBarker profile image61
    DennisBarkerposted 8 years ago

    If you think about it, there has to be a physical basis for many of the things that are described in the worlds faith.At least a small portion must be based on an event or an insight that has been adaped and embellished over thosands of years.

    Science has the advantage of happening now, but who is to say that human capacity for selling stories will not take over and in a couple of thousand years science will be a discredited and maligned faith?

  12. profile image0
    Leta Sposted 8 years ago

    In short, answering the OP:  Yes, all.

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/gen … m-insanity

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/bra … r-liberals

    This could go (obviously) in politics, too.  Same principle, though.

    1. Eaglekiwi profile image74
      Eaglekiwiposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      So you are saying Ernest and Lita , that you know 'all religionists'?

      I think its a very broad generalization.

  13. Sybil Marie profile image71
    Sybil Marieposted 8 years ago

    For me all I need to know is there is a God and I am not him....all the rest is just commentary  big_smile
    I love science, I love learning. I find it fascinating all the incredible discoveries that are happening daily! It Is Such an exciting time to be alive! To me my love of science and my faith in God don't have to be mutually exclusive.
    And..... Love right back at ya Ernest!! smile

    1. Randy Godwin profile image93
      Randy Godwinposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      It is wonderful you can blend the two, but in order to do this you must disbelieve parts of both.

      1. Sybil Marie profile image71
        Sybil Marieposted 8 years agoin reply to this
        1. Sybil Marie profile image71
          Sybil Marieposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          I haven't found that to be true. I have changed the way I view the theology of Religion. Over the years it has become much more about relationship than Religion for me. I haven't yet found anything in science that has caused me to hae to rethink that

          1. Randy Godwin profile image93
            Randy Godwinposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            So everyone has their own idea about religion.  Either everyone is right or no one is.

            1. Sybil Marie profile image71
              Sybil Marieposted 8 years agoin reply to this

              I think everyone is where they are suppose to be to learn what they are suppose to learn at that moment. To people who remain open minded and teachable more will always be revealed, if that makes any sense

              1. Randy Godwin profile image93
                Randy Godwinposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                Being open minded and religious at the same time is not something observed often on these forums.  The biblical scriptures forestall any open minded people who do not agree with them.

                1. Sybil Marie profile image71
                  Sybil Marieposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                  That's to bad. How can you find if you don't search, and how can you search if you are not open to learn from what you find smile

                  1. Randy Godwin profile image93
                    Randy Godwinposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                    I have always searched for knowledge, still doing so on this forum.

      2. Valerie F profile image59
        Valerie Fposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        Randy, that would only be the case if you ignored everything you learned in literature class and took the Bible completely, word for word, literally.

        1. Randy Godwin profile image93
          Randy Godwinposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          There are many that do take it literally.  God inspired, remember?

          1. Valerie F profile image59
            Valerie Fposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            God-inspired does not mean word-for-word literal. Christians who do not believe the earth was created in six literal 24 hour periods don't believe the Bible was any less inspired by God. We're just better at literary analysis.

            1. Randy Godwin profile image93
              Randy Godwinposted 8 years agoin reply to this

              In other words, no one knows for sure which scriptures are actually accurate.  Unless you have special insight that others do not possess.  Which, by the way, many believers on here claim to have.

              1. Valerie F profile image59
                Valerie Fposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                You are also confusing literal with accurate. I believe the Bible is very accurate. I also do not think a literal interpretation of, say, Psalm 23 is an accurate one.

                1. Randy Godwin profile image93
                  Randy Godwinposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                  I'm not sure the bible is accurate.  Sure, it mentions historical events but so does many novels.  Many use the scriptures to back up an opinion when there may also be scripture saying something else.  No amount of literary analysis can ascertain which is true but I guess you can manage it to your own satisfaction.  Fine with me.

  14. Jerami profile image73
    Jeramiposted 8 years ago

    Jesus said to the pharisee, " why are you making up all them rules that you do not even follow that  keeps others from entering in."

  15. Jerami profile image73
    Jeramiposted 8 years ago

    I think that everyone should spend a couple of days away from everyone and everything, doing nothing.
        We have our whole lifetime being busy watching TV mowing the grass etc.  A couple days doing nothing but listening for that still quiet voice might be the most worthwhile thing that you have ever done.
         If you are blessed you will bear it and then you will have your own idea about religion
         If ya don't listen for it you caint hear it.
         And ya caint hear it above the noise

    1. Sybil Marie profile image71
      Sybil Marieposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        smile I Like that Jerami! Very true I think

    2. earnestshub profile image88
      earnestshubposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      jerami, as a child who grew up in the forests living and working in nature daily, I was always filled with awe and a sense of the vastmess of the clear sky above, and the creatures I saw and interacted with daily.

      I still feel like that, all these years later, but it was not about god then or now. The whole deal about life is amazing, there is no need to fill a full vessel.

      I have had some years as a religionists, I remember the hypocrisy better than many. I knew a lot about feeling love for things around me and spotted the lack of it.
      Just being in awe of the diversity of even this little insignificant planet with the complexity to create and support all types of life is enough real joy for me.

      I have had the inflationary feelings associated with religious enthrallment, and had a look at those others who turned the experience in to megalomania.

      As I learn more about how this life that I loved to watch as a kid is formed I later learnt about DNA and the problems associated with it which religion calls sin.
      Man is not perfect, the screaming lunatic biblical god is that reflection....

      Man is a long way from perfect, and so are his intellectual concepts.
      Religion is a long way from understanding love as something that is not gained by making threats from a silly book.

      1. Jerami profile image73
        Jeramiposted 8 years agoin reply to this

           Thank you very much for your thoughtful and gracious reply.
        You are a lucky man to have experienced nature such as you have described.
           My favorite aspect of life was while I was very young.
        My parents were going through a rough time and we had to move out in the country.The "House was so small that  When the weather would allow, the kids HAD to sleep out side looking up at MILLIONS of stars.  AWSUM   
            Now when I look up all that I can see is the reflection off of a few satellites.

          I have had too many experiences (you would call them  hallucinations) that leads me to believe that there is an intelligent force outside of our vision and understanding.
        Some people chooses to make a religion about it. I choose to have a relationship with it.

        1. earnestshub profile image88
          earnestshubposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          I try to have that relationship too. This world is an amazing spectacle! I really get what you said about the stars, I have seen them like that too.
          What swells up in the heart of a child when they are with nature is love, and it does not need to go anywhere.
          I cannot see a neurotic god able to make any of it.
          We still know little about the earth, but we are learning daily how wonderful it is. smile

  16. Jerami profile image73
    Jeramiposted 8 years ago

    If ya ever experience it no one can convince ya otherwise.

  17. Jerami profile image73
    Jeramiposted 8 years ago

    I think that that is very true but sometimes you do not even have to look for it.  Sometimes all ya gotta do is recognize it , It is like a puppy that looks at ya with those eyes wanting to sit in your lap and be petted.

  18. nikki1 profile image55
    nikki1posted 8 years ago

    I believe religionists.. are motivators. They are quite attentive to what their surroundings are. They listen and encourage. They (religionists) like God when he had to banish satan from the kingdom of heaven take a mental beating when it comes to representing our lord. I too am a believer. It also feels good. I highly recommand attending your local Church. It is an inspired feeling.
    haveagreatdaytoall.
    nikki1

  19. earnestshub profile image88
    earnestshubposted 8 years ago

    I enjoy your posts. smile

    1. Randy Godwin profile image93
      Randy Godwinposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Same here Earnest!  You wouldn't happen to be a southern Aussie would you?

      1. earnestshub profile image88
        earnestshubposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        I would! smile How did you guess? lol

        1. Randy Godwin profile image93
          Randy Godwinposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          Your southern accent of course.  And, you've got that "good ole boy" look.

  20. Will Apse profile image89
    Will Apseposted 8 years ago

    Earnesthub- can I suggest listening to some religious music like Palestrina, Monteverdi or any of the other great Christian composers? You don't need to believe in God (I certainly don't)to react to the glories of religious art. If music doesn't do it for you, perhaps you could try  some of the many great Christian painters or even the later poetry of T.S Eliot.

    I think if you can experience religious feelings- the sense of grace, purity, wonder, oneness and human frailty you will be less destructive in your attacks on religious people.

    Of course for many religious people these feeling are less important than membership of a group that offers protection from existential anxieties.

    For others it seems to be an excuse for hatred of those who see the world differently.

    If you could differentiate between these groups, perhaps you could be less offensive to the many good, thoughtful, generous and kind people for whom God is as important as any family member and who are as upset by cruel remark against Him as against a husband or wife.

    Also, if you look inside yourself I'm sure you will realize just how profoundly Christian thought has shaped your values. We live in societies with a long Christian history and even our secular values are based on Christian thought.

    Finally (sorry this is so long), if you start hurling names at the blinkered evangelical types on the Christian fringes you are only confirming their fears that the world is full of evil people who want to destroy them. It increases their paranoia, deepens their hatreds and helps no one.

    1. Randy Godwin profile image93
      Randy Godwinposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Is this a Christian's opinion?

      1. Will Apse profile image89
        Will Apseposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        I reckon I am a Christian though I only started thinking that after living for a long time in a Buddhist country and realizing how many of my attitudes were based on Christian thought. I don't believe in God or any supernatural powers. I see no reason to.

        Two of the things I most dislike are blame and abuse- wherever they come from. I will never join one pack simply for the sadistic pleasure of attacking another pack.

        1. Randy Godwin profile image93
          Randy Godwinposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          A good attitude!

          1. earnestshub profile image88
            earnestshubposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            I agree!
            Thanks for your interest in me Will, i do have some very favorite religious music! smile

            "How Great thou art" sung by Paul Robeson is very moving. smile

  21. lbtrader profile image60
    lbtraderposted 8 years ago

    If you are talking religion then no doubt you are still searching. If science fills your gap for a sense of being then that is a just reason to believe in science. Science tries to bring parameters to problems and solutions to such. But a problem wants to live just like a human wants to live.

    Science tries it's darndest to make us immortals. The problems just fight back.

    Some religionists are extremists just like some scientists are totally dogmatic.

  22. Daniel Carter profile image88
    Daniel Carterposted 8 years ago

    I'm jumping without really reading what others have written before me.

    My observation is that religion really is SUPPOSED to be love based, but almost always is fear based. Religions preach one thing, but enforce the other. (Do it or burn in hell.) If that's the case, then most religionists are in perpetual fear. Some will claim peace, but one obvious sign of their fear is that they cannot tolerate at any amount anyone who questions or opposes their view. Their thinking is absolute, which to the more rational mind sends red flags. It makes the religionist appear that he knows he's wrong and must fight to the death to defend his wounded beliefs which no one can contest, even though the deep seeded fear is that there are cracks and lies throughout the religion.

    They see the inconsistencies, complain about them to neighbors, friends, relatives, yet fight to the death to defend them for fear that if they are wrong, their whole world will crumble and be left completely bereft of a way to proceed.

    It's all balderdash. When people are willing to think outside their present paradigm and face the fear of uncertainty and newness, there lies a new universe, a new hope and a new found joy.

    1. earnestshub profile image88
      earnestshubposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Wow Daniel, that is well thought out and presented. I could not agree more. You have stated exactly how it is. smile

      1. Daniel Carter profile image88
        Daniel Carterposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        Thanks, my friend. I come from having experience on both sides of this fence. Facing deepest fear is always traumatic, but the universe is kind to us as we venture past the walls we create. And now, I have no idea what's out there. The more Iive, the less I know.

  23. earnestshub profile image88
    earnestshubposted 8 years ago

    With super computers crunching the numbers, there is a hell of a lot more to know every day!
    we are all having to be selective and learn what interests us first, as keeping up with it all is a massive task. smile

  24. Will Apse profile image89
    Will Apseposted 8 years ago

    Earnestshub- you seem far too decent a person to take over the mantle of Mark Knowles as Chief Inquisitor (secular wing). I hope you aren't tempted. There are no converts to be made in these forums.

    Also my apologies if I have ignored any of your remarks in the past. I'm hopeless in forums and comment situations. Often I just forget what I have written (age kills short term retention) which makes conversations difficult.

    All the best.

    1. earnestshub profile image88
      earnestshubposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Thank you for your reply. I admired the words of Mark Knowles and my aspirations are similar to his in that I just do not like BS, smile especially when it is judgmental and assumptive. smile

  25. yoshi97 profile image82
    yoshi97posted 8 years ago

    Religionists (zealots is a more appropriate term) are those who have learned scriptures as a way of life. I don't fault them for that, as a man taught that a pen is a knife will believe he is writing with a blade.

    That is not to say that scriptures are wrong, but that people will believe wholeheartedly in something if they have been taught there is no other way to believe. So to speak, zealots consider it sinful to consider other options, as they are then questioning their faith ... and they hold the same view for others.

    However, it is the enlightened man that steps away from the pulpit and questions everything around him ... not because he doesn't believe in it, but because he wants to understand it better. As such, I do not see a person who questions religion as a sinner, but rather, a person who wants to develop a stronger understanding of everything around him.

    The only thing I see wrong with belief is that a person should be allowed to form their own belief and not have one forced upon them. Yes, there are some believe this leads to damnation, but the people they accuse of falling are those they could never convert anyone, so why not let these people falter as they will. Who knows, they might be in for a big surprise later when they bump into them in heaven.

    So often, it's not the message that is delivered, but the force of the blow behind it. Passion is best left to arguments, whereas compassion is for delivering the very important messages in life. Give out the word with love, and you will find that more will be receptive to what is being said ... if only zealots could learn to understand this.

    Passion leads to many sins ... it's no wonder that religion is rejected when it is doled out passionately then, as the message feels evil and tainted. And yet, I have yet to see a man walk away from religion that is delivered with compassion, for then it feels warm and loving ... as all that is good should feel.

  26. profile image53
    mikey9923posted 8 years ago

    I guess there arent to many christians here.....But what really really is bewilldering to me.Is that if there are so may people not interested in christianity. Then why do you people answer these religious fourms? And why do you post them. Why even waste your time ?

    1. profile image0
      sandra rinckposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      You mean the same forum titled religion and beliefs etc...?

      1. profile image53
        mikey9923posted 8 years agoin reply to this

        No i mean. That it always seems that there are so many people on hear in a sence bashing christianity,and if these people dont care about christianity then why answer these posts or even put them up.And if these are the same people who are non belivers then it doesnt make any sence for these posts to be put up by them or even answered by them

    2. tantrum profile image61
      tantrumposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      being atheist doesn't mean  being ignorant. We can be interested in Christianity. Why not ? And we are free to comment and debate as well. Any problem with you ?

      1. earnestshub profile image88
        earnestshubposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        There are quite a few christians here.
        You wont find them being challenged though, they discuss things.

        It is the hate peddling fundamentalists with a god the size of a peanut that cop the flack around here, and fair enough I say! smile

        1. profile image53
          mikey9923posted 8 years agoin reply to this

          Thats what i mean if there are athesists and you guys are interested in speaking of christianity .Then why do you guys always put it down.Instead of asking questions with an open mind.instead of retaliating? I welcome questioning!!and please forgive me if you thought i was coming off to srtong.i can tell in your words that i may of gotten u frystrated

          1. profile image0
            sandra rinckposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            You do realize that atheist, for the most part, became atheist after asking a lot...a lot of questions right? 

            So, how come the "christians" don't ask more questions instead of retaliating and saying deplorable things?

            1. profile image53
              mikey9923posted 8 years agoin reply to this

              I didnt know that actually.I know that i chose christianity at the age of 16 because i fell in love with God.as for the other christians or people who claim to be christian. I cant answer you question.I for one would nevr say things against any forum of religion.If you dont like mine then cool>but i would answer anything that u want

              1. profile image0
                sandra rinckposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                So, it's nothing personal about you.  In fact, I also hear many christians expresses their concerns of christians that give christianity an awful name.

                So there are christians and atheist who get along just fine.  In fact Kiwi is one of my favorites as well as Jeromeo, Jewels and several others.  I just always hope that they understand me enough to know it isn't something personal about them.

                Just general statements about a whole because it gets presented as a whole.  smile

                1. profile image53
                  mikey9923posted 8 years agoin reply to this

                  Not taken personal at all!! : ) belive me growing up in Brooklyn Ny i have friends of all types of religions and no religions. they know where i stand and i know where they stand.I can go to the bar for a drink but not get drunk of course..or i can go to a casino and place a bet. See all things that are said to become a sin actually becomes a sin when it becomes priority over GOD and it takes you focus off of him.I get along with everyone! and if you have any questions that u would like to disscuss then i llget someone to answer them for you! LOL....just kidding  : )))

                  1. profile image0
                    sandra rinckposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                    lol smile

            2. profile image0
              cosetteposted 8 years agoin reply to this
              1. profile image0
                sandra rinckposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                niiiccceeee!!!!

              2. earnestshub profile image88
                earnestshubposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                The best writers work for the Simpson! Great stuff!

  27. Mighty Mom profile image88
    Mighty Momposted 8 years ago

    Clarification: One can be religious (pious) without being a religionist, correct?
    Searching my own experience of organized religion, I see that the congregation (sheep) are definitely not encouraged to think. Closest to thinking is we are asked to apply the words of the priest in his sermon to our daily lives. So much of it is ritualized -- reciting the prayers seems like, well, recitation.
    Thinking? Not so much.
    Stuck in fear? Absolutely. Everything turns on fear of not getting into Heaven.

    1. profile image53
      mikey9923posted 8 years agoin reply to this

      well you must be pertaining to cathalosism.They recite prayers and the church service is always the same

    2. tantrum profile image61
      tantrumposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Living in fear must be Hell! What a life !

  28. earnestshub profile image88
    earnestshubposted 8 years ago

    I worked with a religious fanatic who was so scared of god he near crapped himself when I got fed up with his constant religious harping one day and said "God is bullshit."

    He near leapt out of the car, fearful and pale he moved his body as far away as he could to avoid contamination!
    I made it worse by laughing hysterically at his face and antics! smile

  29. LondonGirl profile image88
    LondonGirlposted 8 years ago

    Not all, by a long chalk.

    My mother is genuinely one of the best people I know; a genuinely good person.

    She's very involved with the Anglican church, she's a member of the Parochial Parish Council, sings in the choir (they have 2 practices a week), and involved with church charities.

    But she's also a very intelligent, interesting woman. She has undergrad and post-grad degrees from Cambridge in geography and geology, and is baffled by Creationism and the like.

    And she *lives* a Christian life. She doesn't bang on about it. She's not arrogant, self-righteous, or all-knowing.

    1. profile image0
      sandra rinckposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I know a few people like this too. smile

    2. earnestshub profile image88
      earnestshubposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I can see that your mom is an asset to the planet, and I know some wonderful christians and religious believers too.
      I just don't think they are that way just because they are believers though.

      My son was a chorister for our cities biggest church, and the lady who ran the choir was a bit like your mom.
      He is Chinese, has no religion, but had a good soprano voice.
      She took him in and he gained him a scholarship to our best and most expensive school.
      When his voice broke he left the choir, and she gave him a book as a reward for his hard work, which she never failed to recognize.
      The book was written a radical left wing journalist, and had nothing to do with religion, it was just a very good book.
      She is a gem in my view.
      The other school he went to was also a church school, and the headmistress although another believer was and is my heroine. She has so much love for kids! Not one incident of bullying in three years at that school.

      I respect people like your mum, regardless of what they believe.
      I grew up with a best friend who was English from London, and they lived here as if they were still at home in London, they never changed diet or how they were, or their accent.
      I loved his mum. Down to earth and honest.

      1. LondonGirl profile image88
        LondonGirlposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        So is mine - I'm very lucky. My Dad's great too!

  30. Mighty Mom profile image88
    Mighty Momposted 8 years ago

    London Girl-- you said it. It's a program of attraction,not promotion.Those who are true "Christians" don't, as you say, "bang on about it." They live it.
    That's the true sign of one who is genuine vs. someone who's trying desperately to prove themselvesas holier than thou.

    As for living in fear: I have found a much better way that puts me in direct contact with the God of my understanding and relieves me of fear. Not gonna argue it and not gonna defend it. It works for me and millions of people around the world who by all rights should be dead. Peace. MM

    1. LondonGirl profile image88
      LondonGirlposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Sounds all very sensible to me - glad you are living in the way that you choose.

  31. profile image0
    cosetteposted 8 years ago

    yes, yes they do.

  32. earnestshub profile image88
    earnestshubposted 8 years ago

    My daughter thinks I'm great too! Lucky guys your dad and me! smile

    1. LondonGirl profile image88
      LondonGirlposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Doesn't work like that. It means you and himself are both good fathers!

      That old Oscar Wilde thing - "Children begin by loving their parents; after a time they judge them; rarely, if ever, do they forgive them."

      1. earnestshub profile image88
        earnestshubposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        I love Oscar wilde! smile

  33. profile image0
    ralwusposted 8 years ago

    Well all this here thunder about religion is impressive and all that, but it is the lightning that does the work. I must add that in all matters of opinion our adversaries are but insane.

  34. LondonGirl profile image88
    LondonGirlposted 8 years ago

    Yup, me too.

    My Mama is quite keen on that line about "only relatives and creditors ring in that Wagnerian fashion". She often asnwers the door or phone to one of us saying she's glad we aren't a creditor.

  35. Make  Money profile image75
    Make Moneyposted 8 years ago

    "Are religionists poor thinkers, Indoctrinated, stuck in fear or all?"

    No I'd say people of certain religions, especially Christians are very, very, very smart.  You asked. smile

    Indoctrinated?  Well most religions have doctrines so I'd say yes.  If a person is a member of a certain religion then they would follow the doctrines of that religion.  What would be the point of being a member of that religion otherwise.

    Stuck in fear?  I can only speak for the Christian religion here.  When we are talking about a God that is the origin of everything good then there is some respect expected.  The Bible mentions fear the Lord many times but we know He loves all of us very much so if we follow His doctrines love trumps fear ten fold.

  36. profile image0
    sneakorocksolidposted 8 years ago

    I think, _______ ___ ____ __ _________ ___ ____ __. Why ____ _ _______ __ _____ ____ __? So _____ __ __________ ___ ______ _ ___ ___ _ _______!

    1. Pr0metheus profile image61
      Pr0metheusposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Well, __________, ___ ___ _ ________ _____ ___ ___ _____ ____ __ ______ ___ _______ ___.  So, _____ ___ _____ __ ____ _____ to ____ ____ ____ _ ______ _____.

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