Death, Hell, and Heaven
Just posting these three summary doctrines here for those who wish to know the historicist view on the above-mentioned topic. This is placed here especially for community participants who have repeatedly assumed that I believe in an ever-burning hell.
You should not stereotype all Christians into a term 'mainstream' and throw labels at them.
Other persons may also choose to state their understanding of the biblical teachings on these very important doctrines.
26. Death and Resurrection:
The wages of sin is death. But God, who alone is immortal, will grant eternal life to His redeemed. Until that day death is an unconscious state for all people. When Christ, who is our life, appears, the resurrected righteous and the living righteous will be glorified and caught up to meet their Lord. The second resurrection, the resurrection of the unrighteous, will take place a thousand years later. (Rom. 6:23; 1 Tim. 6:15, 16; Eccl. 9:5, 6; Ps. 146:3, 4; John 11:11-14; Col. 3:4; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thess. 4:13-17; John 5:28, 29; Rev. 20:1-10.)
27. Millennium and the End of Sin:
The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever. (Rev. 20; 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; Jer. 4:23-26; Rev. 21:1-5; Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18, 19.)
28. New Earth:
On the new earth, in which righteousness dwells, God will provide an eternal home for the redeemed and a perfect environment for everlasting life, love, joy, and learning in His presence. For here God Himself will dwell with His people, and suffering and death will have passed away. The great controversy will be ended, and sin will be no more. All things, animate and inanimate, will declare that God is love; and He shall reign forever. Amen. (2 Peter 3:13; Isa. 35; 65:17-25; Matt. 5:5; Rev. 21:1-7; 22:1-5; 11:15.)According to scripture there will be only 144000 of the 12 tribes of Israel that are redeemed from among man!!
They are Hebrews. being the first fruits unto the Lord, sinless for they have never ... not washed in the blood but they have never...!! Daniel 12:1 & 2, Rev. 7
The first time that Messiah came he walked on the earth and then in Rev. 5 he is seen in heaven opening the seven seal judgments, as a bloodied beaten Lamb of God. Immediately upon arriving in heaven he opened the seals.
After 6 of the trumpets are sounded he is seen on mt. sion with the 144000 having already been redeemed. This is the beginning of the 1000 year reign of the saints and first resurrection. This 1000 years are finished and past. We are in the little season that Satan gathers together the kings.
I also notice that after Satan the Beast, and False prophet are thrown into the lake of fire...Rev 22:15 For outside the gates are dogs, and sorcerers, and whore mongers...
these out side the gates will receive "THEIR part" in the Lake of fire. WILL.. and.. their "smaller part ? "...
How do we explain those out side the gates ?
The kings of the earth will be coming and going through the gates !In Revelation 7 after it mentions the 144,000 being from the 12 tribes it says this in verses 9 and 10.
"9 After this I saw a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and tribes, and peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne, and in sight of the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying: Salvation to our God, who sitteth upon the throne, and to the Lamb."
Revelation 19:6 also speaks of a great multitude.
What do we do on Palm Sunday. We reinact Jesus Christ' entrance into Jerusalem when they held palm branches in His glory. Catholics keep those palm branches until Palm Sunday of the next year. I'm sure this is done in some denominations as well, possibly Lutheran or Anglican/Episcopalian, don't know for sure?
Those 144,000 saints are already in heaven during this millennial reign that we are in. Or at least if not all of them the majority are in heaven already. The way the 144,000 are described in the Bible heaven would be very hard pressed to find 144,000 of them on earth today.
We are close Jerami but the gates of heaven were opened with Jesus' death and resurrection as we see in Matthew 27:52-53.
"52 And the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints that had slept arose, 53 And coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, came into the holy city, and appeared to many."
Hi Glendon. We had previously agreed that your faith and the Catholic faith hold a lot of similar doctrines. But I had no idea that the 7th Day Adventists believe in the pre-trib rapture and the millennial reign in the future like some other denominations. It is really spreading like a plague through a few different denominations isn't it. Do you also use the fairly new Schofield Reference Bible? You may be interested in this post in the Political forum where a bunch of us have been trying to prevent war with Iran. In fact you may want to read the whole thread.
Christian belief for the last 2,000 years and obviously Catholic belief holds that we will be caught up to meet Our Lord in the sky with the resurrection of the living and the dead on judgment day at His second coming, but we have not used the word rapture to describe this. And that we are living in that millennial period right now, it's not Biblical that Jesus will come a third time a thousand years after the resurrection of the living and the dead on judgment day. This earth will pass away and the new heaven and earth and the new Jerusalem will come down from heaven right after judgment day.No! No! No!
Nowhere in the posted doctrines is there mention of a pre-trib rapture. We don't believe in that stuff.
Where we differ is the pre-Advent judgement. We believe that Christ is coming to give rewards because he has already judged. As per sanctuary doctrine. Where judgement and cleansing are similar. Day of Atonement was a day of cleansing. So some aspects of judgement is going on now. "fear God and give glory to Him for the hour of His judgement is come."
We believe in what bible teach. Christ will put in personal appearance. After tribulation. Dead in Christ and living righteous will be caught up in the air to meet him. Wicked living slain by brightness of coming.
Earth desolate, no life.
Revelation says rest of dead live not for another thousand years. All in bible. Check the posted references.
At end of Millennium the New Jerusalem descends. Right there in revelation.
Have a look at this:
http://www.tangle.com/view_video?viewke … 2936364a20
I have been told that the 7th Day Adventists think they keep the Torah Commandments.
If so, please state which ones.
Guess depends on how we treat this it might be time for the popcorn gallery to be entertained.
Check my blog http://glendoncaba.blogspot.com for links to SDA sites.
The short answer is the torah has 2 laws: Moral or Decalogue, and the laws of ordinances (ceremonial). There are lessons to be learned from all of them but only the decalogue (Ten commandments) is binding on christians. Did you know that there is a move in christianity now to restore the 10 commandments, and its not being led by 7th Day Adventists. Being led by people who keep Sunday for Sabbath. Google it. Even Catholics want to restore sabbath sacredness but they do it on sunday.
BTW The health laws in torah are instructive for humanity in all ages. Clean and unclean foods and laws of quarantine etc. Human body the same needs now as then.Who told you this?
"but only the decalogue (Ten commandments) is binding on christians. "
Please cite a reference.
And then which of the other commandments can they break?Approaching it from point of view of break or not break will take us down path of legalism. See it all as types and shadows pointing to Messiah. Fulfilled in Christ. Law a schoolmaster. The ceremonial (sacrifices etc) nailed to cross. Daniel 9:26 put end to sacrifices.
Matt27;51 temple curtaiin torn at time of Crucifixion.
Rituals till offspring come Gal 3:19.
Romans 8:31-39 The cross reaffirms moral law.Messiah taught not to break even the least of the commandments, so I will take His word over anyones interpretations.
So again, I was told the 7 Day Adventists keeps all of them and I'd like to know which ones are they?
Do you know how many there are?Important to understand difference between over 600 rabbinic regulations and the 10 commandments.
Or put another way, the difference between ceremonial law of ordinances written by Moses and Moral Law written by God's fingers and placed inside the ark.
Easy to misunderstand bible if pull one verse out of context.easy to misunderstand bible if one verse is taken out of context.
Let us start with the 62 weeks unto the Messiah is cut off.
Daniel chapter 9
This is the first verse that has been taken out of context.
Lets begin there and rethink it ? That might be a good start at understanding scripture !!!!!!!!!!Jerami Glendon and myself have previously had a discussion about this. We both came to the same conclusion about Daniel chapter 9, or very close anyway. And if I remember correctly from your other posts I think you are saying basically the same. So I think we are all fairly close in agreement regarding what Gabriel said to Daniel in chapter 9. I just compared what it says in the King James Bible to what it says in the Douay-Rheims Bible and find that it is clearer in the latter ("Christ shall be slain" as opposed to "Messiah be cut off" and such). If you don't mind I'll post what Gabriel said to Daniel in chapter 9 from Douay-Rheims Bible and include the commentaries in red. Let me know if you are in agreement please. Daniel 9
Antiochus was one of the four predecessors of Alexander the Great who persecuted the Machabees.One point at a time. Responding to 'law' as general reference and 'law' when referring to decalogue.
Seeking to distinguish for quietness and trust the difference between ceremonial law and moral law.
You are more on topic jerami but I'm in two discussions here.Please consider:
457 BC (DECREE OF THE 7TH YEAR OF ARTAXERXES) to AD31 gives us the exact year of crucifixion. Messiah cut off in middle of week.
"in the middle of week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering". Messiah terminate sacrifices at crucifixion. AD 31.
The 70 weeks extend to AD 34 whereby the Jewish probation as a race was cut off with stoning of Stephen.
Here are more details:
http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cache:nc … &gl=jm
gabriel had come to explain the 2300 days prophecy but he begins by explaining the 70 weeks cut off for JEWS.Yeah I agree on the 70 weeks as I mentioned on page 2 of this thread, posted again here.
"24 "Seventy weeks"... Viz., of years, (or seventy times seven, that is, 490 years,) are shortened; that is, fixed and determined, so that the time shall be no longer.
25 "From the going forth of the word"... That is, from the twentieth year of king Artaxerxes, when by his commandment Nehemias rebuilt the walls of Jerusalem, 2 Esd. 2. From which time, according to the best chronology, there were just sixty-nine weeks of years, that is, 483 years to the baptism of Christ, when he first began to preach and execute the office of Messias.-- Ibid."
But the web site that you posted above wrongly calls Francisco Ribera, a Jesuit priest from the late 1500s the “father” of Futurism and the seven years of tribulation. Then the site goes on to say "Futurism teaches 10 core beliefs", then it lists the beliefs as if Francisco Ribera or any Catholic has taught those 10 beliefs. A couple of the 10 are right but the rest are completely wrong. Glendon if what Kenna Frye says on the web site that you posted is what 7th Day Adventists also say then you are teaching slander.
I didn't have to go far to find what Francisco Ribera taught about the length of the tribulations. This quote is from another Catholic slander site.
"So, according to Ribera, the 1260 days and 42 months and 3 1/2 times of prophecy were not 1260 years, but a literal 3 1/2 years, and therefore none of the book of Revelation had any application to the middle ages or the papacy, but to the future, to a period immediately prior to the second coming, hence the name Futurism."
Francisco Ribera was right. I can prove with many Bible verses, even from Daniel, as I have many times in these forums, that the days of tribulations will be 3 1/2 years. I think it's rather funny when I find two different Catholic slander sites that contradict what a Catholic priest has said.
This quote by you Glendon is also in question,
"gabriel had come to explain the 2300 days prophecy but he begins by explaining the 70 weeks cut off for JEWS."
The problem here is that you are using the seventy weeks of years (70 x 7 = 490 years) and carrying it over to other prophecies. As does the web site you posted when it says this, "When Daniel 8:14 says “For two thousand three hundred days” you automatically know that it means 2300 years." But nowhere in the Bible does it say to always interpret days as meaning years.
Daniel 8:13-14
"13 And I heard one of the saints speaking, and one saint said to another, I know not to whom that was speaking: How long shall be the vision, concerning the continual sacrifice, and the sin of the desolation that is made: and the sanctuary, and the strength be trodden under foot? 14 And he said to him: Unto evening and morning two thousand three hundred days: and the sanctuary shall be cleansed."
The two thousand three hundred days is, six years and almost four months: which was the whole time from the beginning of the persecution of Antiochus till his death.
Antiochus is mentioned many times in 1 Machabees and 2 Machabees.
The problem is that you are not reading from a full Bible. This online King James Bible also has 1 Machabees and 2 Machabees. You might want to read about Bible History.Whereas the site is not as far as I know an official site of the world church I would ask you to not connect dots that are not there.
The political father of capitalism would not be the father of all modern tenets of capitalism.
Fact: In the catholic counter reformation Ribera popularised that antichrist was not the Roman church at time of Reformation but would be a future power hence 'futurist'.
The three Jesuits who worked most effectively to overthrow the Protestant understanding of prophecy, and whose theories are now (in modified forms) almost universally accepted are:
Robert Bellarmine (1542-1621) From Italy.
Jesuit Francisco Ribera (1537-1591) of Salamanca Spain
Jesuit Luis De Alcazar, or Alcasar (1554-1613) of Seville Spain.
We never slander. Only go to history and prophecy and speak truth.
There are offshoot sites that attack Vatican relentlessly. Such an approach may do more harm than good even when they speak the historical truth.
The Adventist world church to which I belong believe in using sound biblical and historical scholarship. Also we believe that there are sincere Christians in all churches, and it is our duty to share the call of revelation 14.
Please lets not cloud our mutually respectable dialogue with words like slander because of what some sites do or by assuming that a list is directly drawn up by Ribera. He was the father of futurism, full stop.
Obviously, you guys have successfully convinced the Protestant world that antichrist is far future. Just look at Tim LaHaye etc. Ribera succeeded. Tremendously. Pity that you and I must meet on opposite sides of this prophetic fence, for you are a nice fellow.Well Glendon it was you that posted that Catholic slander site and it wasn't the first time that you have posted one. One of the first things that caught my eye with your posts was that you said your denominations objective is to "finish the reformation". You seem to be studying the leaders of the counter reformation and that site that you posted was slander with untruths about one of them, Francisco Ribera.
Before you go any further with your idea to "finish the reformation" you might want to do some research into the horrors of the reformation. The German reformation alone left half the population of Germany dead. If that is your idea of finishing the reformation then that is clearly not Christian.
Glendon a couple of months ago we made an agreement between ourselves that we would not slander each other's faith. We can disagree with each other's interpretations of the Bible without slander and saying untruths about each other's faith. It would be nice to see you keep your end of the bargain.
If Francisco Ribera was the first to write about what you call 'futurism' then good on him. Although I doubt whether Francisco Ribera was the first to write about the 3 1/2 years of tribulations while the antichrist sits in the temple as if he were God that will happen just before the second coming of Jesus Christ because it's all through the Bible.
Tim LaHaye and those characters are a different breed altogether. To connect Tim LaHaye and those to Francisco Ribera is erroneous. A better connection would be to the Scofield Reference Bible as I mentioned earlier in this thread.
Martin Luther's main complaint was over indulgences. I've read there were some German priests during his time that were collecting excessive indulgences for their own benefit. Martin Luther could have attempted to reform the church from within like Anthony Zaccaria did.
Because Jesus said "That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" in Matthew 16:18 you will never "finish the reformation" without the help of the antichrist. And then it will only last for 3 1/2 years before Jesus Christ returns to correct everything. I believe you'd be much more productive if you followed the Bible by working towards bringing Christianity back together to the one body in Christ that it is suppose to be.Mike:
I admire your desire to keep this dialogue respectful. And i wish many more in this forum would attempt what we are both trying to do, that is, discuss a very sensitive issue without personal attacks and name calling.
Permit me though to suggest that your perspective is understandably clouding your perception of the facts.
I do not promote or post slander.
Some sites are militantly anti-Vatican more than some, so they will come right out and make strong claims. Look at the facts.
It must hurt any sincere Catholic to read the history of their church and witness the centuries of persecution and erroneous teachings that the Reformation tried to end. Unfortunately, the reformers themselves, like the patriots of French Revolution, used some of the same means.
Here is the big picture: Martin Luther along with many Protestant scholars had identified the established church as antichrist of Revelation. In order to refute this interpretation the brilliant jesuits of Counter Reformation promoted two competing theses:
Preterism and Futurism.
Ribera's futurism has been popularised in present day
Protestantism. Popular Protestant churches need to study the origins of their beliefs.
To finish the reformation means to continue calling world back to plain teachings of Jesus and bible. Very opposite of biblical antichrist.
But lets get back on thread.
Our eschatology differ but we can compare notes.
The year day principle is necessary to interpret Daniel and revelation.Well it looks like I'm going to have to repeat it for you again Glendon. Ribera did not teach that the tribulations would be 7 years like Tim LaHaye and those teach. In fact very little on that page that you posted is from Catholic sources.
No, the year day principal is wrong in most instances. If you know that some sites are militantly anti-Vatican and slanderous then why do you use them? Martin Luther along with many Protestant scholars were wrong but you seem to be still hanging on to their erroneous beliefs. Like I've said before, if you guys don't get it together soon you will be still protesting Jesus Christ's Church when He returns.
The Catholic Church hasn't changed it's main teachings since before, during or after the reformation. In fact there's still indulgences for prayer, fasting and alms giving, Our Lord gives the indulgences Himself.
Glendon you may call them "the patriots of French Revolution" but a friend just posted this as a reply to a comment I made on one of her Hubs "If La Fayette hadn't done that, the child would have been thrown in a dungeon and starved to death, as were many children at the hands of the those who "reigned as monarchs" (read: as dictators) during the Reign of Terror. Everyone praises the "French Revolution" but they conveniently "forget" the Reign of Terror."
She also just posted this as a comment on one of my Hubs. "Protestant "reform" (revolt) had no resemblance to Christ and as the Venerable John Cardinal Newman (an English convert from Protestantism to Catholicism) said:
"To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant."
Actually Glendon I'm starting to see that there is not a denomination that is more slanderous than the 7th Day Adventists. It's a shame that you don't seem to realize it yourself. In fact that other site that I quoted from a few posts back had a long list of slander sites they were trying to correct, all 7th Day Adventists sites.
Yes our eschatology differs in a big way, but we can agree to disagree. The reason why I get into these conversations about eschatology is to try to correct you guys so you aren't deceived by the antichrist. He will deceive many into thinking that he is God.Mike:
You are defending what i am not attacking, and attacking what i am not defending.
Why?
1. You have not refuted the fact that Ribera is father of futurism. A great part of counter reformation. If futurism is now taken over by the LaHaye and company dont blame me. Earlier I said the site stated the tenets of modern futurism. Does not mean these were original tenets of Ribera. May I suggest that you simply look at futurism as one possible interpretation as opposed to historicism which I support.
2. Please state one slander of Catholic Church that you see on a site of Adventist world church. Or even quoted by me from any site that i reference. Then non church sites may make strong statements which I cannot condone, but when I reference them I am referencing info which is historical, and can therefore be attested by third party.
3. Mike, when you talk to others who don't understand church history you can use words like 'slander' and 'correct'. For my part I will not get into any Catholic vs Protestants controversy, and I refuse to have you drag me into one. There is nothing to be gained here by such arguments. I simply posted my beliefs on eschatology in this thread to stop two extreme guys from accusing me of believing in rapture and other such views.
4. The word 'patriot' has a positive connotation in our age hence your assumption that I am praising the French Revolution.
They were patriots in sense that they were nationalistic. A careful reading of history will show that they rebelled against the excesses of the Church and monarchy.
5. Only by year-day principle you can arrive at accurate date of Messiah's baptism AD 27, and crucifixion in 'middle of week'.
6. Mike, any one who is 'sola scriptura' will not be deceived by antichrist. For one of marks of antichrist will be to 'seek to change times and laws'. A sola scriptura believer will stick to law of Bible and not extra-biblical changes.
7. Please state where I or SDA have slandered your church, otherwise cease and desist from the accusation. Slander is a strong and a legal word. Take note that SDA has no interest in slandering any church. Our task is to preach everlasting gospel to all world. The gospel is not slander.
But, what if all verse are out of context....what then?
I wish I were a cartoonist because I have a wonderful cartoon in my head. It goes like this. The first frame. You are in line. Lots of folks ahead of you. The second frame. You begin to get suspiscious, a little nervous and sure enough, you look way up ahead and there are pearly gates. The third frame. The line begins to move a little faster, and you get close enough to see folks on the other side, and sure enough there are folks there that you didn't think had a snowball's chance in hell of getting to heaven!! Folks like Jeffrey Dahmers! And the line is moving even faster now. For the ordinary Joe or Jane, who doesn't have to practice humility, just is, this scene is no big deal. But for the righteous folks, who have spent a lot of time figuring all this out ahead of time, scripturally, and know what it is supposed to look like, it is a bit disconcerting as the final decision approaches: Spend all eternity with Jeffrey OR
- sneakorocksolidposted 14 years ago
0Everybodies go'in to heaven! You just might not be as important there as you think you are here. So, you might have to be a Christians caddy but you'll be there!
Cite the reference for that please.
- bloodnlatexposted 14 years ago0
All I know is that Heaven doesn't want me and Hell isn't hiring, so you people are stuck with me....
Rev 14:3 and no one could learn the song but the 144000 that were redeemed from the earth. v4 these were redeemed from among men. v5 they were without fault before the throne.
I do not think that the multitudes that are seen from all tongues and nations were redeemed from among men. I can not explain the multitudes that are seen because this is not elaborated upon. However the 144000 that are redeemed from among men seems to be all inclusive to the redemption from among men. Rev. 6:9 - 11 Those that have been beheaded for their testimony were told to wait yet a little season, Seems to me to be something of a mini resurrection under the OLD COVENANT.
Seems as though the terms of the old covenant should be finalized before the NEW COVENANT can take over.
My opinion any wayYeah Rev. 6:9 is talking about those that were slain for the testimony of Jesus Christ and also those in the Old Testament like the prophets, the Machabees or anyone that was slain for the testimony then too. Sin can not exist in heaven. Speaking about the Israelites Romans 11:27 says "And this is to them my covenant: when I shall take away their sins." Jesus died on the cross for the forgiveness of sins, so that opened the gates of heaven for sinners that had repented before they died, anyone in good standing with the Lord. They'd enter heaven but they would have had to be spotless when they were on earth to be a part of the 144,000. The new covenant started just about 2,000 years ago. This is the millennial reign of Jesus Christ.
If this is the millennial reign of Christ then the first resurrection must have already taken place.
Yeah that's right Jerami. The first resurrection is the resurrection of the soul. The second death or second resurrection for those that make it is referred to as the resurrection of the body. Revelation 20:4-6 mentions the 'soul', the 'first resurrection' and the 'second death'.
Revelation 20:4-6 "4 And I saw seats; and they sat upon them; and judgment was given unto them; and the souls of them that were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and who had not adored the beast nor his image, nor received his character on their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead lived not, till the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection. In these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ; and shall reign with him a thousand years."
The fact that Jesus' body was not found in His tomb after His resurrection gives reference to the resurrection of the body. Ezechiel 37 when referring to the reconstruction of the dry bones is talking about the resurrection of the body. We see the resurrection of the bodies of the saints that happened just after Christ's resurrection in Matthew 27:52-53. Also in 1 Corinthians 6:13-15 below we see that the bodies of Jesus Christ' followers are His and He will raise them up. This will happen when He returns on judgment day. These verses below also give reference to the Holy Eucharist where it says "the body is ... for the Lord, and the Lord for the body."
1 Corinthians 6:13-15 "13 Meat for the belly, and the belly for the meats; but God shall destroy both it and them: but the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 Now God hath both raised up the Lord, and will raise us up also by his power. 15 Know you not that your bodies are the members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid."
Also 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 does not mention the body but it says the dead in Christ shall rise first before those who are still alive at that time, then together we'll be taken up to meet Jesus Christ when He returns on judgment day.
Thessalonians 4:13-17 "13 For if we believe that Jesus died, and rose again; even so them who have slept through Jesus, will God bring with him. 14 For this we say unto you in the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them who have slept. 15 For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment, and with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead who are in Christ, shall rise first. 16 Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air, and so shall we be always with the Lord. 17 Wherefore, comfort ye one another with these words."
My KJV says.. 9:23.. At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth
9:24 70 weeks are determined upon thy people..." To quit sinning and make restitution ... and anoint the most Holy.
9:25 Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the commandment to build Jerusalem unto Messiah the Prince shall be 69 weeks...
9:26 and after three score and two weeks shall messiah be cut off...
In 538 BC Gabriel said that the command came forth
In 536 BC Gabriel said that in 62 weeks they are going to kill the Messiah.
Approx 568 years later they did kill the Messiah.
62 weeks = 568 years
And every one thinks this is unimportant ???
We should forget about it or interpret it away???
For me this unravels the mystery of scripture.
Mike is this in your bible?glendoncaba wrote
"Important to understand difference between over 600 rabbinic regulations and the 10 commandments. "
Say what ? This is a Christian belief and a lie to boot.
The 603 came from the mouth of GOD and HE told Moses to write them all down.
What story are you reading?
Messiah kept and observed all of them.
You might want to back up a bit......you are not talking to a Christian who buys into the nonsense you are taught. Do not bother trying to tell a Jew anything about Torah as if you understand it better than someone raised on it.....please?We are saved under grace, not by the law.
Your obsession with the law is really starting to freak me out.Not talking about salvation at all.....I know about salvation and the like.
You ask for an explanation of 7th day adventists.
I did not say Moses was not told by God.
There is a difference between laws of sacrifices which Moses wrote and the decalogue written by fingers of Yahweh on stone.
do u regard NT as nonsense?
for the Pauline epistles clearly warn the Christians about Judaizers. Especially Galatians.
If u know so much about Christian beliefs why do u ask.
Do u need an opportunity to use the word 'nonsense'.
Daniel clearly predicted that Messiah would cause oblation to cease. we believe that at crucifixion the types and shadows ceased, and christ is Lamb of God who takes away sin of world.
Adventists have in common with Jews that we keep the Sabbath of creation, 7th day Sabbath.
We also avoid unclean foods.
And as I said earlier we recognise the wisdom in the levitical system, even regulations that ended at Calvary.
I suppose the 2 things from Torah we have in common are Sabbath and avoidance of unclean foods.
We also have a keen interest in sanctuary system especially Yom Kippurim. Explains 2300 days of daniel.Answer me this: do you see any difference between 10 commands and laws of sacrifices.
Yes there is a difference and you seem to think that the other 603 are less important than the 10 words (Hebrew) and the sacrificial laws are a small amount of the 603 so there is still plenty to follow after, breaking them will ruin your life, just try doing it and see.
You called them Rabbinical which is seriously ignorant...they came from GOD !!!Just a common categorization i used because i thought I was talking to a 'under grace only' Christian. OK OK. They use the term a lot. I was using it to create common ground. With you I would say the Mosaic economy or the levitical regulations and ordinances.
I know when Jew says Torah they mean entire Pentateuch.
Let's get down to business:
So do u offer sacrifices at a temple for sins?
Do u go up to Jerusalem 3 times a year for feasts?
Is there still a Shekinah glory over Ark in Most Holy Place?
And what of prophecies of Messiah in Daniel?Some of the Torah instructions are for those who live in the land and not scattered afar, this is something you would know if you knew Torah.
The question of Sh'kinah is really very silly as He can appear anywhere and has to me and still does anyplace anytime He wants to.
Obviously the Ark is missing.....is that suppose to be funny?
Do I offer sacrifices? That is to funny too. As I know that Messiah is the sacrifice.
I also know HE did not come to abolish the Torah and said as much and you know it so enough already with the goofy silly questions please.
What about the prophecies in Daniel? They have been fulfilled and will continue to be.
These questions seem rather elementary and a waste of time.
You are not talking to some naive 5th 10th 20th 30th year believer OK?I am trying to understand your perspective. so you agree that some of Torah fulfilled?
You are saying 2 things?
R u Jewish or Christian?
come clean!
My questions r no joke? Your answers will tell me your perspective. I answered yours without reproach.
R u a jewish Christian.How am I saying 2 things?
You do not understand what a real Jew is do you?
Am I a Christian? Was Messiah a Christian?
Get the point?
Come clean about what?You just agreed with me that not all of Torah is binding now. Earlier you were not saying that.
R u playing around or what?Find where I said that.
Playing, no time for games.
I observe all that I can, the sacrifices are not done anymore.
I an do any of the Torah that is possible while not living in the land.
"The Torah is holy, just and good"
~Shaul~ (Paul)
Salvation does not mean run out and break the Torah.
Neither does it mean being bound by it either.
And you think I do not know this?
I observe the Torah because I see Messiah in it and He even said that is who is was about so I do not do this to save myself at all.
Receiving salvation only sets me free to see Messiah in the Torah and to keep it when I think of Him, that is all.
I do not wish to replace the Torah with Christianity teachings, but to keep it by honoring Messiah.
Simple, not trying to earn anything, how can I ?How do you interpret the prophecies of Daniel?
Still future?
Now that I know you are writing form a Jewish perspective:
Don't you think that if you come into the middle of a discussion among christians you should begin by stating your world view and then see what we have in common instead of asking questions in order to criticise?
we, at least, I, would have a more constructive discussion that way. I can't speak for all but we are all human beings on a fragile sinful planet groping our way to God who has sent light again and again and many refuse the light.
For the Christians we see Jesus Christ of Nazareth as the Light of the world.I know Ha' Mashiach Yahowshua and yes I believe in HIM as the Light, Truth, Way...
The Face of GOD.
No need to reveal I am a Jew who knows the Messiah. That changes nothing. Keeping my identity to myself allows me to observe what others really think.
You have been grafted in, so great.
My perspective is not Jewish...it is TRUTH...Messiah is a Jew...I am nothing special.
Salvation came to me the same way.
I criticize the the naive comments made by Christians who think they know Torah and dare teach it to us. It is arrogant, they should be quiet and learn from those who know it and to whom the truth was given first.
"Salvation is of the JEWS."
~Jesus~Salvation history also reveals that the same arrogance you appear to observe in others caused the chosen nation to reject Jesus.
So now the Israel of God will be saved including all nations.
No, the NT is not nonsense, the way Christianity has hi-jacked it and made it into something it is not is totally stupid.
As if Messiah was a Christian and came to start a new religion.
That is what I am saying....they remove HIS JEWISHNESS from the NT and make HIM into a Westerner and it is blasphemous!!!The way Christians portray Messiah you would think HE said.....
"I am king of the Christians" and not "KING OF THE JEWS"Saved by grace through faith and faith without works is DEAD!!!
What works are those?Law of love. Basically love to God and love to man as expressed in decalogue.
A basic start, yes.
When Messiah said that the Torah and the Prophets (Nevi'im) are summed up in 2 commandments, He did not say that those 2 nullify the others like some magic milk.
It is pretty funny to me that when a Christian finds a Jew who believes in Messiah that they want to try and teach them all they know about the scriptures as if the Jew needed the help.
Christians should ask for the Jew to teach them how Messiah is seen in the Torah...but the Christians want to "convert" the Jew like a bunch of little children as if the Jew is this poor ignorant naive fool...who needs to learn Christianity.You are conversing with a Christian who knows that all of Torah points to Messiah.
The many sacrifices for sin and uncleanness pointed to messiah.
Yom Kippurim is the story of salvation.
Sabbath is celebration of creation, rest in Christ, as well as paradise to come.
Laws of health necessary because we serve a holy God who wants our bodies to be holy.
Right now our world church is studying the book of Numbers.
http://ssnet.org/qrtrly/
Take a look and see that we take Torah seriously. Just believe that after cross only 10 commands binding.And where did they come up with that?
It's good to do with the understanding.
Messiah is so much deeper in the Torah and that is why I love it.
You 7th Day folks do a good thing by keeping Shabbat and Kashrot....
but do not run around saying "we keep all of the commandments" and then say you mean the 10.....that is laughable to a Jew and Jesus was and is a Jew.
I know plenty of Jews who know Messiah and lead such a holy life it puts Christianity to open shame.Thanks for the first compliment I've heard in this forum in a long time.
Dont u think though that the 10 commands stand out. Christ quoted from them with young ruler, etc.
They summarise love.Sure they stand out.....and Messiah also said that not one little jot will pass away from the Torah until heaven and earth do.
Last time I looked, the earth and heaven are still here.Sunday has been the new Sabbath since Jesus Christ's resurrection which was on a Sunday the first day of the week (Matt. 28:1; Mark 16:2,9; John 20:1,19).
Acts 20:7 "And on the first day of the week, when we were assembled to break bread, Paul discoursed with them, being to depart on the morrow: and he continued his speech until midnight."
The first day of the week is Sunday.
1 Cor. 16:2 "On the first day of the week let every one of you put apart with himself, laying up what it shall well please him; that when I come, the collections be not then to be made."
Again Sunday.
Col. 2:16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat or in drink, or in respect of a festival day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbaths,"
He means with regard to the Jewish observations of the distinction of clean and unclean meats; and of their festivals, new moons, and sabbaths, as being no longer obligatory.
@ glendoncaba
Remember this ?
Even though I am not there with you in person, I am with you in the Spirit. Concerning the one who has done this, I have already passed judgment
in the name of the Lord Jesus. You are to call a meeting of the congregation, and I will be there in spirit, and the power of the Lord Jesus will be with you as you meet.
Then you must cast this man out of the church and into Satan's hands, so that his sinful nature will be destroyed and he himself will be saved when the Lord returns.
Do you know what the person was doing to have Paul bring such a judgment on him?
WHICH OLD LAW HE BROKE?......it was not one of the 10 I can tell you that.Just give us the text and we can proceed. The text and context will explain itself.
1 Cor. 5:5 and I usually do not post / cite chapter and verse, I think if people want to know they can find it themselves like in the days when people had to look things up before society got so lazy.
Which of 10 was that man observing?
Not just fornicating but with fathers wife. come on r u saying 10 commandments do not address sexual immorality.
I know elsewhere in torah forbids fathers wife too but dont read into text.
I was on a bus from Malaysia to Thailand not long ago when I noticed a teenage girl reading a booklet entitled 'How You Can Avoid Purgatory'.
I would never attack someone's religion but it did depress me to see an innocent girl being deliberately scared by religionists with these strange and irrational ideas. Its pretty close to child abuse.No she wasn't scared at all Will. Just the fact that she is reading the book proves that she is trying to be perfect. Besides the holy souls in purgatory are on their way to heaven anyway. There is a pile of reference to what is called purgatory in both the Old and New Testaments.
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.htmlTrying to be perfect is a form of madness in itself- one favored by totalitarian regimes, insane sects and the rich. Accepting the realities of life (there is no perfection, for one thing)is a lot healthier.
Well we all know that nothing is perfect. But you saying that someone that tries to be perfect is a form of madness does not make sense. Sure accept realities but without striving for perfection would mean there would be no advancement just mediocrity, no matter what the topic.
Choose god not religion! love all koma. Peace is that religion? Is god religious? not to me.
He first must chose you and then you make a choice to follow Him.
he choose me and you and the world when we were all born. I will not follow religion i will follow god and his brothers and sisters that will be you guys. Not follow but respect and listen doesnt mean going along some scripture or choosing a religion for guide. gps helps me enough.
@ glendoncaba I agree with you concerning a time line comparison being necessary in order to understand the books of Daniel and revelation. However I disagree with the Day = a year. The time line comparison revealed in Daniel 9 is spoken by Gabriel (62 weeks is approx 568 years) with more certainty than later expressed with "a day is LIKE a year' ( a day is kinda like a year) .
a week = approx 9.13 of our years. Application of this equation answers 95% of our questions concerning end time prophesy. It will also reveal answers to many questions that haven't been considered.How did you arrive at 9.13 years for week.
OT has year/day principle for prophecy.
The key to understanding time prophecies I DAY = I YEAR
Numbers 14:34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, [even] forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, [even] forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.
Eze. 4:6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.the two references where the Lord is talking to man the Lord speaks in terms that man understands when God sends a message with an angel, God uses terms that the angel understands and the angle delivers the message UN interpreted.
If God had said to lay on your side for 10 days , and for each day you will eat an apple. Would that mean that a day on earth is an apple in heaven. This was an earthly reference being compared to another earthly reference.
I came up with a week = approx.9.13 because (in 538 BC) Gabriel said the commandment has gone forth and from the time that the commandment goes forth it shall be 62 weeks until they kill the messiah. Approx 568 years they did. 568 years = 62 weeks.Jerami the difficulty with politics and religion is that people (and I mean all of us) post info to justify preconceived views instead of reading to get new insight. I just gave you a whole new way of looking at things so it will take time to digest.
Here is a little assignment if you are really serious about prophecy.
Several decrees were issued to rebuild Jerusalem. Find out which decree succeeded. Then you will find the start year for the 70 weeks that were cut off. Once you find the exact year of decree you go forward accurately.
- Tina Ireneposted 14 years ago0
Mike -
Very nicely done, all around, and your use of my quotes are right on.
I might add that there has never been a doctrine called "the sale of indulgences". You're correct that there had been a few priests who misused the Doctrine of Indulgences and it must be remembered that:
(1) they were priests, not bishops, and therefore, they were not teachers with authority, as only the bishops are,
(2) the Doctrine of Indulgences had only been used a couple of times before Luther's time and hardly anyone knew how to apply it,
(3) the application of the Doctrine of Indulgences got straighten out, and
(4) Luther continued with his nonsensical revolt by becoming fast buddies with those who had political motives for their revolt(s); therefore the "Protestant revolt" (not "reformation") was totally politically motivated.
In addition and to demonstrate Luther's vacillation, this is what he told his followers in a couple of his sermons, plus more:
"Accordingly, we concede to the papacy that they sit in the true Church, possessing the office instituted by Christ and inherited from the apostles to teach, baptize, administer the sacrament, absolve, ordain, etc."
Sermon for the Sunday after Christ's Ascension; John 15:26-16:4 (2nd sermon), page 265, paragraph 28. (1522)
Luther remarked several years later in another sermon to his followers:
"We concede - as we must - that so much of what they [the Catholic Church] say is true: that the papacy has God's word and the office of the apostles, and that we have received Holy Scripture, Baptism, the Sacrament, and the pulpit from them. What would we know of these if it were not for them?"
Sermon on the gospel of St. John, chaps. 14 - 16, in vol. 24 of LUTHER'S WORKS recorded in 1557, St. Louis, MO, Concordia, 1961, 304
Plus...
In his controversy with the Anabaptists (1528), Luther makes the striking admission: "We confess that under the papacy there is much Christianity, yea, the whole Christianity, and has from thence come to us. We confess that the papacy possesses the genuine Scriptures, genuine baptism, the genuine sacrament of the altar, the genuine keys for the remission of sins, the true ministry, the true catechism, the Ten Commandments, the articles of the Creed, the Lord’s Prayer. … I say that under the Pope is the true Christendom, yea, the very élite of Christendom, and many pious and great saints." From: History of the Christian Church, Chapter V. “The Inner Development of the Reformation from the Peasants’ War to the Diet of Augsburg, A.D. 1526-1530.” Thank you Tina. You posted some great additions for anyone that wants to read them. What you posted certainly makes you wonder whether Luther was sorry for what he started, doesn't it. I have read that German Princes got involved with Luther to gain more land. This adds to your number (4), for "political motives".
That said now I would like to say the same thing that I say on the bottom of my Hub about the Holy Eucharist. Which is ...
I would like to invite everyone to attend a Catholic Mass at least one time in your life. I think you will realize that it is not the nasty thing that you have been told it is. Please be reverent if you do for you will be in the presence of Our Lord Jesus Christ. You won't rightfully be able to receive the Holy Eucharist without going to the Sacrament of Reconciliation before hand, but if you go up with your arms crossed on your chest like the young children do the priest will bless you.
God bless
MikeWell Glendon I must say that you are consistent. You consistently say that you "have decided to avoid divisive religious issues". Yet you consistently carry on your charade of trying to, in your own words "finish the reformation". You post a blatantly anti-Catholic site that is clearly 7th Day Adventist in this thread then you try to wash your hands of it by saying "the site is not as far as I know an official site of the world church", the "world church" in your eyes as being your particular 7th Day Adventist denomination. In the other thread, in the very same post that you say that you "have decided to avoid divisive religious issues" you post a clearly anti-Catholic video with a guy that is very close to frothing at the mouth that is full of untruths, lies and slanders. These inconsistencies in you would be described in native North American terms as someone that speaks with a forked tongue. To tell you the truth Glendon when I watched that 7th Day Adventist video it made me wonder whether that fictitious slanderous zeitgeist video that attacks the entire Christian world was actually published by the same 7th Day Adventist denomination. There are just too many similarities between the two videos Glendon.
So before listing all the untruths, lies and slanders from the 7th Day Adventist site you posted in this thread as well as all the untruths, lies and slanders in that 7th Day Adventist video from the other thread and before I answer your 7 part post from above I have a Biblical challenge for you.
The Biblical challenge I have for you is to just simply answer my post from page 4 of this thread that you conveniently avoided. I understand why you conveniently avoided my post because it strikes the death knell to your 7th Day Adventist denomination as well as all 7th Day Adventist denominations including any Christian denomination which is distinguished by its observance of Saturday as the Sabbath. The challenge is coming from me and me alone as a Catholic that recognizes Jesus Christ's apostles as the start of the universal Catholic church that had the God given authority to change the Jewish Sabbath to the Sunday Lord's Day of worship.
So here's my post from page 4 again.
Besides the above there are more. God begins to reveal His displeasure with the Sabbath in Isaiah 1:13.
Isaias 1:13 "Offer sacrifice no more in vain: incense is an abomination to me. The new moons, and the sabbaths, and other festivals I will not abide, your assemblies are wicked."
Basically the whole chapter of Hebrews 4 but I'll just post 4 verses here. Regarding the day of rest, if Joshua had given rest, God would not later speak of "another day," which is Sunday, the new Sabbath.
Hebrews 4 "6 Seeing then it remaineth that some are to enter into it, and they, to whom it was first preached, did not enter because of unbelief: 7 Again he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, Today, after so long a time, as it is above said: Today if you shall hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, he would never have afterwards spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a day of rest for the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, the same also hath rested from his works, as God did from his."
When there is a change in the priesthood, there is a change in the law as well, as we see in Hebrews 7:12. Because we have a new Priest and a new sacrifice, we also have a new day of worship, which is Sunday.
Hebrews 7:12 "For the priesthood being translated, it is necessary that a translation also be made of the law."
John specifically points out that he witnesses the heavenly Eucharistic liturgy on Sunday, the Lord's day, the new day of rest in Christ, as we see in Revelation 1:10.
Revelation 1:10 "I was in the spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,"
Matthew 16:19 and Matthew 18:18 both mention whatever the Church binds on earth is bound in heaven.
And finally the verse that also entirely refutes sola scriptura (by scripture alone). The 2,000 year-old tradition of the Church is that the apostles changed the Sabbath day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.
2 Thessalonians 2:14 "Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.
The above verses are taken as usual from the Douay-Rheims Bible. These verses are also in the King James Bible. And they should be in your Bible as well Glendon, unless it has been changed.
So there's your Biblical challenge Glendon.
Challenge the God given authority of the apostles to change the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.
I am not looking for another frothy mouthed diatribe or a copy and paste commentary, just your Biblical refutation of the apostle's God given authority.
I will understand if you conveniently avoid this post again cause as I have said it is basically the death knell to all denominations which are distinguished by their observance of Saturday as the Lord's Day. But hear me Glendon, if you can not challenge the God given authority of the apostles it will end all friendly dialogue between the two of us, simply because it will mean that your 7th Day Adventist denomination is not just anti-Catholic but it is also an attack against God. I would recognize it also as an attack against God because your 7th Day Adventist denomination does not recognize God's given authority to the apostles or believe that Jesus Christ left His Holy Ghost to guide His Church.
This Biblical challenge also goes out to anyone that is a member of a denomination that distinguishes itself by observance of Saturday as the Lord's Day.Hush big man. Your post on sabbath came in middle of several points being discussed with you and quietness. For quietness I had to prove that OT ordinances fulfilled in christ, for you I had to prove that although OT ordinances fulfilled, the decalogue has not been changed.
If you want a point by point refutation you may need a new thread.
Which video got you so upset? Remind me so I take a second look. As with any serious scholarship all I am saying is that I will defend a document or video that i post but not everything else from that source, until I have examined it. No forked tongue here. Only the Vatican can speak for all Catholics, so similarly only SDA world church can speak for all adventists. That's all I am saying.
Do you want to discuss the content of a video I posted. Dont go ballistic on me.- Nia Lposted 14 years ago0
Check this out.Might be useful for Christians. <snipped - no links in the forums, please>
Not a pass. Just an effort to cool down the temperature.
I said i will have a proper discussion point by point. Not a diatribe. These texts are the usual weak efforts of those who dont know church history but I will humour you with a reasoned response in a different thread that I am inviting you to post. For I know it will be a long discussion.
Now please tell me what incensed you in the video. I selected it by topic and did not see all of it but if its doug bachelor I will stand by content. or did u click video in margin which I dont know about.
BTW the NT does not authorise change, talk to your priest. The change is by authority of church. but if it makes you happier I will refute each text, just post them in a new thread and I will go there for discussion but dont make the topic too negative for non-believers.
Proof text method is weakest method of interpretation. One ought to study bible thematically and use expository method. Pluck a text from context and sub-text and it can say anything. For example the entire book of hebrews is explaining to Jews the sanctuary priesthood fulfilled and surpassed by faith in priesthood of Christ. We have to look at big picture in each text in order to understand what the author is saying.
Post the thread and link it here to discuss "Who authorise the change of Sabbath from 7th day to 1st day of Week"
I will do it.
@tantrum
I don't have a problem.
Anyone who reads religious scripture does.
I like "bibles", they work great for paper-weights.
Among, the larger books, they make great book ends.
Otherwise, each should be considered a "history" book and treated subjectively, because all text can not stand up to scruitnizing.
So, I leave it to the inept, who can't guide their own life.Yeah ! I'm a Hell of a Woman. So watch out !
Nice summation. I don't count myself as either historicist, futurist or preterist. How's that for avoiding labels? <grin> I agree with the precepts of the afterlife. that you present, I believe that the body of evidence in scripture is clear that no one receives immortality until the first resurrection. The concept of body-less souls floating around with the ability to see and know all that is happening here on earth is simply without scriptural support and actually has its roots in Greek mythology if I am correct. With that in mind, I am also inclined to believe that neither Enoch, Moses or Elijah have yet to receive their immortality, but that is a topic to deep to go into at this time.
Although I haven't really studied the varying millennial views, I am inclined to believe that the phrase thousand years is figurative for an amount of time too large to count or measure and not a literal 365,250 days. Christ reigns now and has ever since His ascension and will continue to do so for all eternity. The "thousand year" period in revelation refers to those who have lost their lives for their faith and will one day reign with Christ which should be understood as indefinitely.
I agree with you that a new earth will be established; one without death a decay. I would differ with the concept that the saints come down from heaven as in where God's currently dwells after this thousand years. I have yet to find any evidence in scripture that the "third heaven" was ever promised to us.
God bless!
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