Can Jesus just come already? It's been 2000 years. How much longer are we going to have to wait?
I hear you!
But about that day or hour no one knows (Matthew 24:36).
Seems like it takes sooo long to us, "But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day." (2 Peter 3:8)
Hang in there. The longest life on earth is but a breath compared to eternity!
1 Thessalonians 5: 1-4:
"But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."
I am going to assume that your sudden hope for the end of days has nothing to do with the recent disagreement between you and others Of atheistic nature.
Instead i will ask, why do you suddenly hope the end of days will happen already?
End of one age; beginning of another. End of egoistic society; beginning of loving and altruistic society.
Only a psychopath would not wish for such.
Then i would have to wonder what that makes the person who wishes for the eradication of all non believers at the end of the second coming, since apparently psychopath doesnt quite cut it.
Of course, i think this is the time where you say something about misinterpreting the bible, that its written in code, and that no one but yourself understands said code as well as say all interpretations aside from your own are dumb.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
I'm going to avoid making the crass middle-school humor that immediately springs to mind when reading this.
Supposing that Jesus existed and was who Christians say he was there are numerous reasons why he might not want to show up any time soon. For one thing most of the global population are not Christian which means showing up now means damning almost everyone to Hell possibly including Christian sects and denominations that don't have their theology right.
I know if I was to put myself in Jesus sandals I'd be reluctant to ever come back to this planet ever again when 90% of the people that worship me think I was a white guy for some reason and continue to paint me as such. I mean come on, Jesus is Middle Eastern, and he was born 2000 years ago, meaning he probably barely broke five feet tall and definitely did not look like the racist European Jesus we have to suffer with in every nativity scene, painting, etc.
I really have to wonder why so many believers are eager to get to Heaven (not to mention how hot and heavy a few of you get over the whole apocalypse thing), you know once they let you in you can never get out right? And chances are some people you're longing to meet in Heaven are actually in Hell, including people you loved very dearly but who didn't make the cut and thus clearly deserve eternal hellfire (for all their lying, boozing, sexing and saying "Jesus Christ!" when they stubbed their toe that one time). Let's also not forget that some people you really hate will get into Heaven, including any truly repentant sinner no matter how heinous the crime (I wonder how many pedophiles and murderers you thought had met justice by going to prison are gonna be smiling bright and ready to meet you on the other side). Well, none actually, because Heaven (and Hell) as described by most religions is a patently absurd fairy-tale, but you get my point.
All I know is if I were Jesus I'd stay the hell away from this mess of a planet, he's got a whole Universe of toys to play with, not to mention whatever spooky ethereal spiritual plane stuff he wants to do.
If he came to do the hard stuff - coming from Heaven to be born into the most lowly circumstances on earth, to be rejected by his own (the Israel nation), to suffer and die for us while we were sinners - you can be sure he'll come in his glory and victory!
When he comes for us, it will be for those living currently AND those who have already died (who will be drawn to him first). So regardless of how many on earth are faithful to him at the time he comes, when you consider the masses of his own from all time (and remember even those who lived before him were given the gospel after), he will certainly have an immeasurably LARGE group comprising his bride.
God is faithful to his word and will fulfill all his promises. And those who trust in him will not be disappointed!
Anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. That's people of many different theologies. As long as they are sincere in their belief that he is the Son of God, that he died and was raised to life to make us right with God and give us eternal life, and they acknowledge him as Savior and Lord, they will be saved. Btw, we ALL deserve death/hell, because the set wages of sin (any sin) is death, but thanks to God we ALL are given the offer of life over death through Jesus Christ!
Why eager to get to heaven? Think about the most perfect earth you can imagine. Well, heaven will be far more wonderful than that! No one will ever want to get out. We will no longer have our earthly sinful nature, but we'll already be conformed to the image of Christ (along with maintaining the positive aspects of our unique selves we were created by God to be). Our worst enemy won't be an enemy at all, but they also won't have the attributes that made them an enemy. They'll be a perfected them.
I will give you this - Jesus probably did look middle-Eastern. I do tend to select nativity scenes and paintings that look more authentic in this way, BUT it really doesn't matter. Our outer appearances are not important in the spiritual. The prophet Isaiah spoke beforehand of Jesus like this (Isaiah 53:2): He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him. Now what does he look like? Radiant light... beautiful!
Thank you for avoiding any "crass middle-school humor", and take care, Titen-Sxull!
How many people of different theological beliefs do you think will believe in Jesus and that he came to save us and died for us? How many believers of Shiva, or Odin? How many of those that never heard of Jesus (a majority of those that have lived and died)? This sounds like a very empty claim - they are ALL destined to burn for eternity because no Christian missionary ever trod their doorstep.
A lot of people of allegedly different theological beliefs (those of differing Christian denominations) say the same key thing - Jesus is Lord and King!
Everyone has been / will be given the opportunity to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, even those who died before his birth, death and resurrection. "..They will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God." (1Peter 4:5-6)
Then it sounds like every soul that has ever lived will enter heaven. For who could doubt, seeing him and hearing Him say He is God, that it is so? We can do as we please in this life, but after we're dead He will preach to us and tell us the truth, whereupon belief is automatic for all but a few who haven't the brain capacity to understand simple words.
Convenient, isn't it? Although it kind of negates any reason to live a good life on earth...
Even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19). It isn't belief that saves; it's reliance on him as Savior and submission to him as Lord.
It seems those who have the message preached to them here on earth make their decision here on earth. They either accept or reject what the Holy Spirit says to them. The gospel was preached to those who died without that opportunity.
The dreaded tribulation that sounds so horrible and cruel to us may be a last loving but stern warning: This is what life with Satan as master is like; turn to God through Jesus Christ, be saved, and enter into eternal life!
That would be untrue: John 3:15
Nowhere in your quote is there any indication it will be preached ONLY to the dead that never heard it. That, too, then is untrue and the statement that after death belief will qualify according to John.
John 3:14-15 "even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life." You can isolate Scripture and insist it be read a certain way, but if you know ALL Scripture, then you can better understand what is being said: If even the demons believe and tremble but are not saved, and if we're told that the righteous will live by faith and so on, then we can easily discern that this belief spoken of in John 3:15 is a faithful, trusting belief.
The Lord knows how and when each person will have the gospel preached. I gave you Scripture that indicates that even those who already died had it preached to them. We also know that Jesus told the Pharisees that if they had truly been ignorant, they would not be guilty. Trust him, he has it all worked out. He is the just and merciful One.
" No one will ever want to get out."
I already don't want in.
"Think about the most perfect earth you can imagine."
Even if Earth were made perfect I would not want to spend eternity on the same planet, such a thing would grow boring very fast especially without the low emotions to accent the high emotions, being happy all the time every second of every day would grow dull fairly quick.
"We will no longer have our earthly sinful nature"
One more reason not to want to go. Most of what we human beings do and think about for fun are sinful or at least borderline sinful. Sex and sexual fantasies, gambling, drinking, drugs, violent films and video games hunting for sport, etc etc etc. Most of our recreational activities are what many would call "sinful" as are the fantasies that relieve our stress. We're talking about a world without stress though, a world without struggle where you don't have to worry about working to put food on your table or keep your lights on. So in a world without struggle pleasure becomes your main goal, just enjoying Heaven, but without those vices you will get bored.
Right now I can go on Netflix and stream any one of thousands upon thousands of TV episodes and movies and yet I get bored with Netflix and hear others around me complain that "they need to add nee stuff more often". Now imagine that we've in Heaven, all the movies containing violence, sex and sin are gone.
So what are you going to spend eternity doing?
Things become even worse when we take into account that many of the people you care about will be in Hell, not Heaven. Every Christian has some loved ones and friends who are "unsaved". And yet you will bow before the monster who is burning them in Hell as though he is just to do so? A sickening thought and one more reason not to want to go to Heaven.
"BUT it really doesn't matter"
How do you know this? Maybe it does matter to Jesus how he is depicted. In the Old Testament God seems pretty obsessed with how he is talked to and portrayed, its a sin to take his name in vain and he forbids the making of graven images and idols.
"he will certainly have an immeasurably LARGE group comprising his bride."
Gross. You don't find that figurative language the least be creepy?
"Btw, we ALL deserve death/hell, because the set wages of sin (any sin) is death"
No one who lives a finite life can deserve an infinite punishment, that's absurd and insulting. At any rate Hell would be far preferable to Heaven, better to wallow in squalid conditions a free man than become a slave to gain the favor of a monster.
Human beings think they know so much about God and yet they all disagree with each other, wouldn't it be weird if they found out that they were all wrong?
On earth we resemble the first man Adam. So we delight in sin, we're prone to negative emotions like boredom and such. But in eternity we'll have the new spiritual bodies like Jesus' new spiritual body, and we'll have been conformed into the likeness of Jesus so that we'll be our unique but perfected selves. So we will no longer crave or desire sinful things, and we won't experience negative emotions such as boredom. To be with the Lord is to be fulfilled, full of joy, at peace, etc.
All that God (who created so much here) has planned for this far better place is unknown to any of us and is beyond anything we can imagine.
I maintain hope that hell is an eternal death, rather than an eternal suffering, but I admit I have no revelation on the matter. Hell was prepared for Satan and the demonic forces, and it is not God's will that any human perish but that all come to a saving knowledge of the truth (this we know from the Word), so I also maintain hope for all people that in the end they will not follow Satan into hell, but will turn and be saved. I admit this is only a hope. We are given stern warning about hell by Jesus himself and need to take that seriously. And while he invites all, if anyone wants no part of it, they won't be forced.
The character of the Lord is what is important, not his physical appearance. Anyway, he no longer maintains his earthly appearance; he's now radiant light. Likewise, it is our character and not our appearance that matters to the Lord (As it's written: Humans look at the outer appearance, but God looks at the heart).
I don't find the idea of us collectively being the "bride" of Christ "creepy" or "gross" because it has nothing to do with sexual relations and everything to do with oneness and intimacy. God loved his people Israel intensely and intimately and was "husband" to them. So we are loved intensely and intimately as the "bride" of Christ, so much so that in love he was willing to lay down his life for us.
It's not really up to us what we deserve, but it's up to the One who created all things for his own purposes. Again, I hope hell is death eternally rather than eternal suffering. No human is free except in the Lord. We're either unknowingly slaves to Satan, or we're willing slaves of the Lord. Freedom under the influence of the world and Satan is an illusion.
What we as Christians know and agree on is that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior, the very Way to the Father above.
" we'll have the new spiritual bodies like Jesus' new spiritual body, and we'll have been conformed into the likeness of Jesus so that we'll be our unique but perfected selves"
So now not only am I trapped in Heaven but I have to conform to the likeness of Jesus? Tell me again how sucking the sin out of everyone's brains can possibly leave them the same people they were before? I mean that would include memories of sins you've committed as well I assume. Sounds like some scary 1984 mind-control stuff, no thanks.
" To be with the Lord is to be fulfilled, full of joy, at peace, etc."
Joy and peace have no meaning without sadness and conflict. Life without struggle is meaningless and banal, those words have no meaning when played out eternally without the negatives to go with them.
"and is beyond anything we can imagine."
You do understand that this is all a fanciful fairy-tale right? I'm still shocked to find out adults believe in this stuff, like okay when you're a kid and you first learn about death sure its nice to have some false comfort, but a magical place where you meet all your old relatives and no one is ever sad and its so good you couldn't possibly imagine it, that's just insultingly obvious.
" and it is not God's will that any human perish"
BS. If an all powerful being exists nothing could oppose its will without its permission. Also this isn't a Biblical view since in the Bible it is quite clearly God who does the judging and the damning, obviously if he is the one to directly act than it is his will - unless you are suggesting that some force MORE POWERFUL than God is coercing him.
"The character of the Lord is what is important"
Humanity is so obscenely self-obsessed that we've created a God that is obsessed with us, in fact one of the telling hallmarks of most deities is how involved they are with mortal affairs, its one of the things that gives away the fact that gods aren't real.
"Likewise, it is our character and not our appearance that matters to the Lord "
I see, is that why he demands the mass genital mutilation of young boys?
"because it has nothing to do with sexual relations and everything to do with oneness and intimacy."
Fair enough, but the whole pretend cannibalism at Communion doesn't make you squirm either. From the outside looking in Christianity is a creepy death-cult.
"all things for his own purposes"
Which is why I would definitely choose Hell, if we were to suppose your God exists. At least I would go to Hell a free man, not a captive to this celestial dictator, not a sycophant bowing to a monster who thinks its just to torment people for eternity. A purpose forced upon you from outside, and you welcome it gladly? Oh I guess its not our choice huh? Funny how free will stops being a thing the moment anyone objects to what God is doing, all of a sudden we're his property and he can do whatever the hell he wants because he made us.
Imagine if we took the same approach with our children. No, even if there is a God we don't belong to him, because a thinking, feeling sentient being cannot and should not be anyone's property.
Also, I'm curious what purpose a perfect God could have to create anyone or anything. God needs nothing. God lacks nothing. God wants for nothing. The God Christians describe simply cannot exist the way they describe him, which, like I said, is why I hope any gods that might be out there are so vastly different from our expectations and so uninterested with our petty BS that it wipes the smug smile from believer's faces. You know that smile, that "I'm special and God loves ME smile", egotistical nonsense.
"We're either unknowingly slaves to Satan, or we're willing slaves of the Lord"
This is one of the realizations I had around age 18 that made me sick to my stomach and began my exodus out of Christianity, of course reading the Bible did the most to get me out. Thanks for the reply by the way, I realize I'm being a sour cynical atheist here and you've been very kind to explain your beliefs to me politely.
Let's say we live to old age. We naturally become less and less sinful people - more patient, less prone to aggression, less glorifying of violence, less lustful, more humble, and so on. But we are still ourselves. So in Christ we are transformed, yet we are still us. I used to be very attached to some of my sins and didn't like the idea of changing either. But that changed and changes ever still. It may for you as well.
It is true that in our current state we must endure suffering in order to appreciate blessings. But in eternity we won't be in our current states. We can't apply earthly thinking or even earthly reality to spiritual things because they do not match up.
We believe in the Lord (and consequently heaven) not because it is a comfort or because it will allow us to be with loved ones, but because we have already come to know the Lord. We ourselves are those who have experienced him, who know him ever more intimately, who cannot deny what we already have had revealed to us, and in whom we have been sealed. Heaven is a wonderful thing for which we have no comparison, but the most desirable part for those of us who are in love with the Lord is that we will at last be with our God fully and not bound or limited by these earthly bodies.
If heaven sounds like nothing but a fantasy to you, consider that the One who has made a vast multitude of wonderful things here - yes, even life itself and even love - also has the power to make far greater things. Many glorious things we now have would not be believed if they were still an idea or a promise. These wonderful things are only believable to you because you are already living them. Only by faith are things believable BEFORE they come into existence. Praise God that he is faithful even when we are not!
It has been revealed to us in the Word that it is not God's will that any perish. 2 Peter 3:9: "He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." This may illustrate how he can punish even while it is not his ultimate will: I hate disciplining/punishing my five-year-old son and my will is that he do what is good and right so that I don't ever have to discipline or punish. But when he chooses to act out (let's say act out against his two-year-old sister), then I discipline, not because this is my will, but because it is the necessary consequence of his behavior.
To us the consequence of our sin - death - seems too harsh to be just, yet this is because our nature is: 1) to carry an entitled attitude even of the life given to us as a gift, and even of eternal life, which is also given as a gift through Jesus Christ; and 2) to not only underestimate the atrocity of sin to the Holy Father, but even to delight in it, which leaves us no concept of the true horrors of it. Are we more loving and merciful than God because we would never put to death our children? No, because in fact God does NOT put to death his children, but gives the promised eternal life to all those who have accepted their rights as his children, no matter what wrongs they've done. What about people who have not accepted their rights through Jesus Christ? Was God ever obliged to give them life in the first place? No. Why then would he be obliged to give them eternal life when they want nothing to do with him, and he himself IS eternal life.
I agree with you that humanity is self-obsessed, but this is not where our understanding of God's involvement and care comes from. Why would God not be intimately involved with his creation? He cares even for the sparrows. How much more he cares for those created in his image! He is so in love with us that he came to our lowly place to suffer and die for us, and bring us to himself. No false god has ever loved like this. God is love (1 John 4:8). Our love is in his image, and not that we are projecting love onto him. Why would love even exist without a God of love?
About male circumcision, we perform many medical procedures. Isn't it noteworthy that the one he chose for a sign actually benefitted people in a variety of ways (e.g., decreases the risk of UTIs, STDs, cancer for the male and likewise for his female partners).
While the relationship between us and our children does have parallels between God and humans, it is not altogether the same. God alone is able to create from nothing. God alone is the initiator and the author of life. Our parents are in a different role with us because their ability to give us life depended on that which the Lord gave them, and their desire/ will for us to be born could only come about by his greater will. Our parents were really the MEANS by which we were born, and they did not actually create us. So while it is true that we cannot consider our children as our property, God is not a human and as God he can do all that he pleases. Our understanding of what it means to be a "good" person (humility and recognition of our limitations, for example) do not apply to God and do not have to do with his goodness (which is true and perfect) or any alleged lack of goodness. When we do try to apply certain good attributes in humans (such as humility) to God, we show only that our understanding of God as God is incomplete and is humanly limited and defined. Our rebellion against him (even that which demands freedom from him) is only human arrogance. An understanding of God as God in the role of God leads to an understanding of the appropriateness of God's sovereignty and our appropriate worship and submission to him.
His purpose in creating us? For his good pleasure; because it was/is his will. He may not "need" us, but he certainly desires us. We are created for him. To be loved by him and to love him in return. Revelation 4:11: "Worthy are you, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created.” We (humans collectively) are his beloved, the one he desires intimacy with, the only one he has chosen to create in his image and for union with him, out of all his creation in both heaven and earth.
You may not understand how special you individually are to God, yet you are the only one of you he ever has or ever will create.
Cat333 - obviously, you've never worked with Alzheimer's patients in a nursing home!
I would like to know where you got this information from. I am so shocked at this that I really cant be sarcastic about it and genuinely want to know where on earth this information is backed by legitimate studies.
Do you have any thoughts as to why the mutilation is even needed to begin with, when god could have just not had any of those problems exist in the first place?
Information provided by hospital staff to inform new parents of the benefits of circumcising their sons; various other places.
We no longer live by the law but we live by faith, and circumcision that matters under the new covenant is circumcision of the heart rather than literal circumcision. Yet these health benefits (along with social reasons) continue to factor into people's decisions regarding having a male baby circumcised or not.
Disease, deterioration and death are all a part of this present earth. Just as was forewarned to Adam, we now get sick or hurt and we die because of the introduction of sin. Praise be to God that sin and death have been conquered by Jesus Christ on the cross, and we may now be free from disease and live forever with our Lord when the new has replaced the old.
That's right it's still legal for parents to cut off body parts of their children without the child's consent. I've never spoken to an uncircomsised adult male who said they sure wish they had all that sensitive skin removed.
Seems you're judging a whole lot of people and their decisions (even those based on health benefits) on this one, Rad.
Heath benefits? Give me a break. Let the kid decide when he's a adult. Sure I'm judging, I've given this a lot of thought, it's a complete invasion of a persons body. How do you feel about female circumcision? Those who force it upon girls say it benefits society.
Health benefits from cutting off a part of the body you think God designed? What a farce. Did God error and ask us to fix?
You are correct again, Rad Man! Circumcision means nothing in the New Testament. Everything is spiritual now, since Jesus Died and Rose Again. Yes, it is the circumcision of the heart that God does to remove or cut loose the sin from the soul of every man and woman who seeks a baptism and forgiveness of sins from God the Father.
"Circumcision means nothing in the New Testament. Everything is spiritual now, since Jesus Died and Rose Again. Yes, it is the circumcision of the heart that God does to remove or cut loose the sin..." Yes!!
Funny, she said I was correct, you agree with her and then disagree with me. What's up with that?
She offered truth from the Scriptures here. You made a judgment on people.
You always say I commend believers and not unbelievers, but I've said many positive things to unbelievers, and I have called out untruths given by believers, even a couple pages back in this very thread.
Yes, I made a judgement on people. So what? We should not be removing body parts without consent. It's done for religious reasons or because parents want the child to look like them.
I've asked a few times for you to list the medical benefits of circumcising an infant and I've asked you to comment on why got erred?
We don't use our pinky fingers much and they could cause problems in the future so lets cut them off infants without any pain relief. It's a barbaric practice.
Some people do have religious reasons for the practice of circumcision. Christians have no religious reason to have their sons circumcised, as they were not instructed to do so. I suppose there may be men who want their children to "look like them", but this is not my understanding of why most people have their infant sons circumcised.
I'd already mentioned the health benefits and have listed them again upon seeing your post asking about them.
The pros and cons must be weighed for any procedure. If there were pros to having our pinky fingers cut off, and if it wouldn't be an extremely dangerous procedure, cutting bone and such, then I suppose people might consider it and some would opt for it. But there aren't any pros to it, and it would be extremely dangerous and difficult to heal, so it's really a silly comparison.
"Circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God." (Romans 2:29)
Still, it is interesting that there are actually recently discovered health benefits to the procedure God had initially required. And I wouldn't judge those who choose circumcision for their babies based on the health benefits of it. As far as I know, there aren't any health benefits to female circumcision, which was never directed by God.
Wow, you've got yourself in a pickle with this one. What are the health benefits of being circumcises as an infant again?
And why did God not get that right?
Here again are the benefits I've been made aware of: decreases the risk of UTIs, STDs, cancer for the male and likewise for his female partners.
Disease and death will be factors in the present earth, just as foreknown and foretold by God.
"UTIs, STDs, cancer for the male and likewise for his female partners."
For an infant? Why not wait until the age of consent? Where did you get that information? Sometimes guys get testicular cancer later in life, so why not remove them as infants. Sorry, but you not making any sense.
About 117 boys die each year in the United States as a result of their circumcision, most from infections or blood loss.
Bollinger, D. Lost Boys: An Estimate of U.S. Circumcision-Related Infant Deaths. Thymos: J Boyhood Studies, 2010;4(1), 78-90
Contrary to frequent claims, infants do feel pain as intensely as adults, and very possibly even more.
Anand KJS, for the International Evidence-Based Group for Neonatal Pain. Consensus statement for the prevention and management of pain in the newborn. Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2001;155:173-80.
Circumcision regularly removes a shocking 3/4 of the penis’ sensitivity through the removal of the ridged band, foreskin “lips,” and most often the entire frenulum.
Sorrells ML, Snyder ML, Reiss MD, Eden C, Milos MF, Wilcox N, Van Howe RS. Fine-touch pressure thresholds in the adult penis. BJU Int. 2007;99:864-9.
As adults, men circumcised in infancy are almost 5 times more likely to be diagnosed with erectile dysfunction (ED).
Bollinger, D., Van Howe, R. S. (2010). Alexithymia and Circumcision Trauma: A Preliminary Investigation (in press).
Tang WS, Khoo EM. Prevalence and correlates of premature ejaculation in a primary care setting: A preliminary cross-sectional study. J Sex Med, 14 Apr 2011.
Circumcision has never been proven to be effective in either reducing or treating cervical cancer, penile cancer, urinary tract infections, or sexually transmitted diseases including HIV/AIDS.
Van Howe RS. A cost-utility analysis of neonatal circumcision. Med Decis Making. 2004;24:584-601.
This isn't really a fight I'm interested in taking up. There's a lot out there saying the opposite - that circumcision does reduce UTIs, STDs, cancer in men and their partners. You can advocate for it being made illegal if you want, and send the information to someone that has some say in it, rather than to me.
I agree that overall infants feel pain, even while they are still in the womb, which is one more reason abortion, including partial birth abortion, is so disturbing. The penis of an infant male may be much less sensitive than even male children (seems my experience from childcare involving diaper changing and cleaning), and from what I've heard and seen the infants barely cried after being circumcised.
This is just another silly question that doesn't make a good comparison: "Sometimes guys get testicular cancer later in life, so why not remove them as infants." Because the cons would vastly outweigh the benefits, given the necessary role of testicles in humans' lives. If you want to say let's consider penile sensitivity and the increased risk of ED later in life when deciding whether male infants should be circumcised (and whether this should be made illegal), okay, leave it at that, so the argument doesn't become silly.
117 infant deaths in the US alone is acceptable to you?
I mean really, females don't really need breast's and they do cause a lot of cancer, let's make it legal for parents to decide to remove them as infants? Does that sound reasonable?
117 deaths sounds like a pretty good reason not to do it. BUT I can't say I know how many deaths occur from cancers, STDs and UTIs that might have been prevented with circumcision. Looks like the studies do show these benefits even from a quick look into it. Kind of unclear on how advantageous versus problematic it is.
The American Academy of Pediatrics has issued a policy statement that maintains that though there is existing scientific evidence that indicates the medical benefits of circumcision, the benefits are not strong enough to recommended circumcision as a routine practice.
(Read more: http://www.surgeryencyclopedia.com/Ce-F … z3Iiy2GIxc). A study here was given that said boys under the age of five are 20 times more likely than circumcised boys to have urinary tract infections (UTIs). Wouldn't really help to wait till they were an adult if you wanted to reduce risk of childhood UTIs and even STDs in adolescence.
Btw, it looks like local anesthesia is generally used now.
Really, if you feel strongly that infants should not be circumcised, you might want to contact someone of influence on it.
Edit: The benefits of females having breasts, including the benefits of breastfeeding infants (which is much better for infants) and social benefits, are more significant, and the risks (physical, emotional, etc.) involved in cutting off breasts of female adolescents or adults are MUCH greater than the risks involved in circumcision of male infants. This comparison isn't so good either.
So...no studies that support health benefits of cutting off baby foreskin?
When was the last time you heard hospital staff give the benefits of cutting the skin off?
Look it up, I'm sure you'll find lots of studies. I've seen them before. I was given the information from a hospital five and a half years ago. I've seen medical information since. Just found it interesting that God's command came with benefits. It's nothing I'm overly interested in. You can question it, and Rad can continue to judge and even advocate that the procedure be made illegal.
http://www.webmd.com/sexual-conditions/ … rcumcision
Some say it is good others say no.
The only time it is good in an infants case, where they clearly cannot consent to the operation, is if a pre existing condition is affecting their health.
Other than that, its mutilation. The things circumcision supposedly prevents mostly occur later in life, well past the age of consent.
Wow, what arrogance. People often say that Atheism is egotistical, but to say that a super being who live beyond space and time and created the entire universe just for use and we are the apple of his eye after living forever (already) without us or without anyone or anybody is a tad egotistical. No?
What is your idea about what happens after death?
The same thing that happened before we were born or what happens when we are put to sleep for surgery. Nothing.
You have just said, in a way, that the soul is immortal.
What soul? Are you for real? Have you lived in a cave your entire life? You've been here a while and you don't know what Atheists think?
Well, let's put it this way: "You have just said, in a way, that the we are immortal."
Every soul is immortal, Rad Man!
After death, those who have obeyed the Gospel of Jesus Christ and have received a proper baptism at a Church of Christ and partake of the Lord's Supper Every Sunday will go on to live forever with the Lord in Heaven.
Those souls who remain sinners, those who have not been forgiven will suffer eternal punishment in the Hellfire of Hell, after death's door closes in on them
What if your sick and can't make it to church on Sunday for communion? Do you start over again with another "salvation" prayer or are you lost forever? These are new rules that I had not heard of in the past so I am a bit mystified.
Love it. None of you can agree what the majick book means.
Funny, I agree with everything mishpat has said thus far about the gospel. I expect we'll disagree on many things in life, having been created as unique individuals and having different things revealed at different times to us, but I recognize the gospel preached by mishpat and many other Christians in the forums and outside the forums.
The "works mentality" (this or that must be done in addition to faith in Jesus Christ in order to be saved) that is added by this and that group is common, but is NOT biblical. The Spirit and the Word will NOT lead us to add any further requirements for salvation, but certain teachers, pastors, denominations, and such will attempt to lead us in this way. The way of salvation is simple:
Christ's atoning sacrifice for us + our acceptance of this free gift = eternal life
Does that mean you disagree with what Caan is saying?
I've agreed with Caan that God is One - Father, Son and Holy Ghost; that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior...
I've already pointed out that it is by grace that we are saved, and not by works (whether attendance at a Church of Christ or any church, baptism, partaking in the Lord's supper, or anything else). Sorry you missed the moment you were waiting for. Yes, I disagreed with something a believer said. Salvation by grace/faith alone, and not by works, is too key to let it go unsaid. AND I believe Caan is sincere in her love for the Lord and will begin to think about this truth found from the Word and the Spirit, regardless of what the Church of Christ is saying. The "Church of Christ" isn't in the gospel, but rather the "Church" is. The "Church of Christ" has nothing to do with salvation, though the collective "Church" is the bride of Christ.
Funny, you only agree with selected parts - and as you agree with mishpat - that means you disagree with the religionist he/she is arguing with. This is why your religion causes so many conflicts.
Still not going for the deal to stop the "abuse" and "persecution" I see - why not?
Sorry, I've given this come consideration and have taken it up with the Lord. He told me rather directly that threatening people with hellfire for obedience is extortion and he's rather upset by it. He said the Church of Christ is wrong about a great many things including it's lies about it's establishment.
Don't hate me, I'm just the messenger.
Well I hope he comes because I am dying to give him a piece of my mind.
Jesus will return, Lybrah, when everyone in the entire world has been given the opportunity to receive Jesus through a proper baptism at a Church of Christ. The Church of Christ is the only church Jesus died for! It has His name stamped on it and it is His Bride.
What about the ones that die without hearing? They just burn forever?
Wow, you better hope you have the correct version of God. Because that sounds terrible.
Definitely not a god I could ever love OR worship. If He doesn't ever send someone to tell about Him, the people that never heard are punished for eternity. What a guy!
Unless of course Christianity goes on a warpath...again.
Well, if you're looking at the "rapture," anytime. If you're looking for the second coming, its "anytime + 7 years. And that 7 years won't be a good time for the folks left.
According to Harold Camping, it has already happened. Maybe we're still here because we missed out on it.
I have been a Christian for 45 years and believe, according to the Scriptures, Jesus has already returned! My Hubs explain the reason why.
Remember a couple of years ago when radio preacher Harold Camping predicted that the world was going to end on a certain day in May of 2011? People freaked out, his followers were selling off their homes and running around the country in RV's passing out End of Days literature, etc., etc.... and when the day came, nothing happened.
Harold said "Whoops, sorry, I forgot to carry the 2. The REAL date will be in October."
The October day came and went... and nothing happened.
Harold wised up and said "I'm gonna shut up now."
That was F'ing hilarious.
Yes, it was ridiculous. I remember telling people we don't know what day it will be, but we can be fairly certain it won't be THAT day precisely because we've been told we won't know. Anyone who tries to come up with a day or hour is clearly not being led of the Spirit and the Word in that.
Silly stuff when people try to predict such. BUT like the verses in the posts by bBerean and SirDent point out, we can see the seasons, and we can see the time getting closer. We just don't know how long "soon" is to our Lord. But even still, we can encourage one another with these true words: Jesus is coming soon!
So you think it could be 50 million years away and that is "soon" for you? How odd - please explain.
Funny how you say it's impossible to predict and then predict it will be soon. Of course people have been saying the same for 2000 years and for the Jews even longer. Everyone seems to think it will happen in their lifetime, but it never does. We just get old and die.
Not funny at all since Jesus said we can't know the day or hour, but we can know when the time is getting close based on the fulfillment of his words and the signs of the end. We see more of these end time prophesies taking place. We've got our increases in earthquakes, famines, "blood moons", and so on as our increasing "birth pains" foretelling that the "birth" of our Lord's coming will soon be at hand.
For example, Jesus said in Matthew 24:14: "And the Good News about the Kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, so that all nations will hear it; and then the end will come." Well, that seemed a long way off not so long ago. But suddenly thanks to television and the internet, the gospel is preached to all nations, even those too dangerous to go in person and preach. And then the end will come...
I don't necessarily expect that I will be alive when it happens, but that may only be because I may not live a long life. I believe it is very soon and I am filled with great and inexpressible joy at this.
According to scripture: When our Lord was asked
when the second coming would be, his response was that only the Father knows. Is it really necessary for us to in which time we can better prepare ourselves to receive the Lord if He comes in our life time.
So, from that we can gather that God and Jesus are not one.
God the Father and Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are One. They are God! Jesus is a High Priest for His Church, The Church of Christ and He Sits at the Right Hand of God the Father.
There was this fellow hanging next to Jesus that made a last minute confession of faith. He believed. Because of this, Jesus told him he would be in Paradise with Him. But the poor fellow died before he could get baptized. Where do you suspect he is now?
That man on the cross went to the Hadian world and the other man was not saved because he mocked God! And realize this was when Jesus actually walked on this earth. When Jesus Died He went to the Hadian World and Rescured the man who said to remember him along with all the people who had obeyed God during the Old Testament time. My preacher says that this man had received a baptism by John the Baptist in the river and remember Jesus also was baptized in order to become popular. This is why that man on the cross who asked Jesus to remember him didn't mock God and he made to Paradise when Jesus rescued him and the others of the Old Testament times.
Today, we have a New Covenant in the New Testament and Jesus is a High Priest for His Bride, He Died for it. We are commanded to obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Good News at a Church of Christ. The Holy Spirit says you must repent of your sins and receive a proper baptism by immersion at a Church of Christ, the Only Church Christ Died For. The Church of Christ is Christ's Bride and everyone who is a Christian will make it to Heaven, because they obey God and follow His precepts in the New Testament.
So if one today makes a confession of faith in Jesus Christ but dies before he or she is baptized, they are lost?
You must be baptized to have a chance of salvation. Every Sunday you must also receive the Lord's Supper to remind you of what Jesus did for you at a Church of Christ gathering. You must also once you have received Jesus Christ, and are properly baptized and repent of your sins, remain Faithful and spread Jesus’ Gospel Good News to your friends, family and strangers if they will hear you.
You could lose your salvation if you turn your back on God!
It was never once saved, always saved! That is a damnable doctrine of Hell!
Sounds like a lotta new laws to replace the old ones. May I assume you believe these things you mentioned present no conflict at all with any part of the New Testament?
The Old Testament was written to the Jews and it is for our learning. God destroyed the Jewish Temple in AD 70. This is referenced in Mattew 24, the worse time in History.
Today, we are commanded to Obey Jesus’ New Covenant. Old Things Have Passed Away and Made New. God says to Hear Jesus!
Might I suggest reading Romans 10 and Ephesians 2-3-4 again, then tell me once more you see no conflicts.
This New Testament books were written to Christians of the Church of Christ, who were first a Gentile people and Jews today fall into this category because they can no longer prove they are Jews. They can't trace their ancestry back to Abraham.
The World is reading our Christian mail and getting confused for lack of knowledge.The New Testament was Written for Christians, and Gentile People. It is was not written for the World, because Jesus Died Didn’t for the World. He Died for His Church, which is Christ’s World. The World word in the New Testament Refers to the “It” of Christ, His Bride. The Church of Christ! This is the World Christ Died For, Not the Other denominational Churches. Do you understand, @Mishpat?
You do recognize that there have billions or trillions of people that God created, but failed to reveal himself (through missionaries or any other way) to? That He created destined for Hell before they were even born?
And THAT is the creature you worship?
Your statement is not true!
All children are innocent and are a part of Heaven before they reach the age of accountability, the age of 13-14, when they commit their first sin. When they commit their first sin @Wilderness they must Now Obey Jesus Good News Gospel to have a chance of Redemption in a Church of Christ.
Christ started His Church in AD 33, in Jerusalem when He Died and Was Resurrected.
And the trillions that never heard of Christ before dying? The millions and millions of AmerIndians before the missionaries from Europe came to indoctrinate them? The Australian aborigines of a few hundred years ago? The far east peoples of a couple of thousand years ago? The African and South American natives of today, all that have never heard of your God?
According to you they are all pre-destined for Hell by your loving god. How can you possibly worship such an entity?
Rad Man, when a star athlete is in the zone, he is at-one with his equipment. The basketball star moves as one with his basketball down the court. There is harmony and no disagreement. There is an effortlessness about their movements.
God and Christ are distinct, but not separate. When you become love, there is no separation between you and others, just as there is no separation between God and Christ.
Jesus is not God. God is not Jesus. But they are one.
For someone who has never seen or felt the spirit, this might seem unreal. But even you will one day find the spirit. Perhaps sooner than later.
Jesus is God, He created All Things. And God the Father is God and also God the Holy Spirit is God. The God Head is Composed of Three Persons. They all agree as one and Jesus is the Son of God the Father seated at His right hand.
Hello Craan. I am thankful you acknowledge our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, but it sounds like you're listening a little too heavily to what a particular pastor is saying, rather than relying on the Word and the Spirit. The "church" or bride of Christ is the collective body of Christ - all those who live by faith in the Lord - and not exclusively those attending a "Church of Christ". Neither church attendance nor baptism are necessary for salvation, though church attendance aids spiritual growth, and baptism should be done out of obedience and to ensure we're making a confession of faith. You gave a long list of musts for salvation, which really is a "works mentality" - it is not our works that save us, but the saving work of our Lord Jesus Christ.
I'll be honest, your pastor concerns me, and I hope you'll focus only on study of the Word, calling on the Holy Spirit for guidance, rather than listening to a man. As far as the thief on the cross being baptized by John the Baptist, this is nowhere in Scriptures, and seems simply an idea inserted to insist on baptism for salvation. Likewise, there is no specific age of accountability given. Be careful of things inserted as scriptural that are nowhere given in Scriptures.
Forgive me for any offense, for none is intended. I just hope you will lean more on the words of our Lord, and less on the teachings of any man. May God bless you, Craan.
You are not correct and I listen to a preacher of Christ's Church part of The Church of Christ not a pastor of some denominational church. And I study the Word of God to show myself approved. All I have said is true. I will bet my life on it. I am not misleading you!
You do speak truth when you say that Jesus Christ is Lord. He is God. God is One. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
It is also true that he gave himself up for the bride - those who will believe on his name and are eagerly waiting for him. All those who worship him in Spirit and truth are a part of this body of Christ, his bride, the "church".
The divisiveness within the church (all those multitudes of denominations) should not be and were warned against. We should lift up our Lord with united voice. The "Church of Christ" is a denomination, just like all the others. All have their own strengths and weaknesses. Attendance at none can save us, nor can any other acts we do (baptism, the Lord's supper, etc.). "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.…" (Ephesians 2:8)
Good morning. It seems you have forgotten an important issue. Your preacher is not going to appear before Christ in your stead. Nor is a "group from the church." You are going to be there to answer for yourself, by yourself.
When it comes to following the Word, it would seem that your first "duty" to yourself is to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" and not depend on another's interpretation.
We cannot build a doctrine on one verse, however, every verse must fit with all others in interpretation. For this reason I suggest Romans 10:4. It is a broad brush statement yet identifies the purpose of Grace and the value of Grace. And it does not collide with any other part of the Word.
Grace is the gift of God, not the laws of man. Grace was the argument of Paul in Galatians. The Law is dead at the Cross, "is" being past, present and future.
Lybrah, I hear you. But if you become Love as Christ did, then you won't feel any urgency for his return.
If you truly love others as yourself, then you will no longer have self-concern. You won't be worried about his return. You will already be walking with God.
Some people have some strange ideas about Christianity. I have go through dozens of those ideas in my ever-changing belief system. Belief is not Truth. Neither is it Faith. If you are humble, your beliefs will continue to change toward Truth.
If you cling to any one idea, you're effectively sitting in the road, blocking traffic. That's not a very loving thing to do.
As long as you are not walking on water, loving others as yourself, taking 100% responsibility for their actions against you, utterly humble and fearlessly confident, you have not yet arrived. In other words, there is more to learn.
Most Christians don't know that the first 5 books of the Bible were written by Kabbalists in CODE. Every interpretation by those who don't know this code is in error or incomplete. Every interpretation.
The Age of Miracles never ended. Those who think it did merely never went far enough toward Faith to find miracles. The miracles I'm talking about are not the accidental coincidences that awe some people. I'm talking about the cause-and-effect coincidences that bend or break the laws of physical reality.
Some ministers these days have watered down Christianity and it was already corrupted by Constantine and Justinian.
I have tasted the perfection of Love and witnessed reality-bending miracles. All this talk of damnation is not of God (Love). Let us concentrate on Love, for that is where God and Jesus are.
I certainly agree that the age of miracles - even those that bend or break the laws of physical reality - continues and occurs according to our faith. Lord, increase our faith!
I also agree that we can walk with the Lord here on earth, as he has given us his Spirit to be with us always. Yet this still falls short of being face-to-face with Him, as we will be in eternity. In line with the Scriptures, I "speed" his coming. Then all things will be set right and suffering of all here on earth will come to an end. Come, Lord Jesus, come!
What "miracles" have you observed that break the laws of physical reality?
'Beauty', 'Design', 'Love', "Sentience', 'Creativity'. . the list is.......
Physical reality was that a truck was beside me about to hit me when God miraculously moved it and it was in a different location, and my life was spared.
Physical reality was I experienced intense pain every month for 13 years until the Lord manifested and said to me "focus on me, not the pain" and lifted me up out of my body so that I saw my body laying on the bed, and I was away from the pain and up with the Lord in Spirit. Physical reality was altered miraculously so that I need no pain management techniques (which the one incident might have been considered), but have been free from the pain now for 15 years beginning from the time of this supernatural manifestation and healing.
Physical reality was that my third degree sprain in my ankle was not healing well (I was told it was so bad I might need surgery at some point). Then I gave it to the Lord, singing "Take my feet and let them be swift and beautiful for thee", when suddenly intense pains that hadn't been there since the initial sprain weeks earlier shot through my ankle, and I said to the Lord, I asked you to HEAL it, what are you doing? From that point the ankle healed quickly and fully, so that now physical reality is that I don't even have the expected, forewarned difficulties (e.g., achiness during rainy weather).
There are other smaller things, such as the presentation of something needed that wasn't there, but mysteriously appeared when the Lord was called on.
There are also those things known of others whose physical realities were altered. For example, physical reality was that a pastor friend of mine could not have children (tested at a young age and at various times). Yet the Lord told him he would in fact have a son. How would this be? The Lord miraculoulsy changed physical reality. The man who couldn't have children even in his youth, now in his older age has a young son, just as the Lord promised.
Is there really no one here on this thread who understands what this means "the second coming of Christ"?
Is God is sitting on a cloud? Will Christ-like looking man come to rescue you? No, the kingdom of heaven is within you. It was always there.
The second coming of Christ is when you finally wake up. That moment that you discover that you're created in the image of God. And if you really don't understand this, you'll be waiting unto eternity, for your Christ will never come.
So sad, for it's literally mentioned in the bible - even in the corrupted one.
"Nothing astonishes men so much as common sense and plain dealing."
~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
"Look, he is coming with the clouds," and "every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn because of him." So shall it be! Amen. (Revelation 1:7)
"At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory." (Mark 13:26)
"For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man." (Matthew 24:27)
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)
This is the coming of which we speak and speed. Yes, the Kingdom of God is within us and here with us already, just as promised, and we are so thankful for this, but this is not what we are speaking of. We are speaking of a time when all will see him face-to-face and we will be with the Lord forever.
Perhaps when he was making the world and everyone in it, God might have ensured there was enough food to go round and babies wouldn't die of starvation. Did this slip his mind when he was resting up on the seventh day? Meanwhile, his son has somehow saved us, has he, and died doing it? What exactly, in a world where people get their heads cut off, has he saved us from?
We the people were given the tasks of working the land to get food, distributing that food and such. There is no need for anyone to be starving considering the great amount of food available, the abilities we have to distribute that food, and the millions and billions of dollars possessed by numerous people who could easily feed the multitudes. But humans in their greed aren't doing much about world hunger, and those most able (i.e., the richest people) are often doing the least.
What we are saved from through Jesus Christ is not any hardships here on earth (though his Spirit gives strength and comfort for these), and we may even lose our heads or be put to death for our faith while on earth (and we'll all certainly die unless we happen to be those few around at the end). What we are saved from is the "second death" - that is, eternal death - and we are instead given the gift of eternal life through Christ Jesus our Savior and Lord.
I believe the reason God doesn't come back is because He doesn't want anyone to die and go to hell. He willingly gave His Son to die in our place and He longs for us to turn to Him.
Romans 9:22 paints us this picture, "What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction?" I imagine God looking down upon the earth and seeing all of the sin, remembering what we did to His Son and what we do to each other on a daily basis. I imagine He would like to wipe us all out! But then Jesus, presently at His right-hand side, says "Wait! That one is your child! And that one... and that one there!" On and on, Christ continues to make intercession for us! And so, God patiently waits until the fullness of time, when everything is in place.
It's like waiting for a harvest. The farmer can't put the exact date on the calendar, but he knows that signs to look for. They are spelled out in the Christian Bible in books like Revelation, Isaiah, Daniel and the gospels. We live like it's tomorrow, but the more time we wait, the more opportunity to tell more people about Jesus.
And the more people will reject this notion. That is why atheism is the fastest growing group around the world. Give it another 50 years or so and there will only be a few believers left. Unless the Muslims get to you first.
That's true. Islam has a foul proof way of assuring no one leaves the faith. Well, no one alive anyway.
^^ Hey, Download Free Movies Guy ... Jesus does not approve of copyright infringement.
Let me know when you find out. Will be sure and put the kettle on. Does he prefer tea or coffee?
That was kind of you to use such kind words, but RA is not a pagan. Pagans hold religious beliefs, he doesn't appear to.
I Think he meant "pagan" in the "infidel" sort of way. Technically - I am a pagan depending on your definition.
Okay, here is the definition of pagan that I have.
a person holding religious beliefs other than those of the main world religions.
• dated, derogatory a non-Christian.
• an adherent of neopaganism.
Now if he mean that you hold religious beliefs other than the main world views then it's an incorrect term to describe an Atheist. If he meant it as a derogatory term meaning non-christian than he would be correct and rude.
We'll have to ask him I guess.
Ah, well - heathen, ungodly, irreligious, infidel, idolatrous - also apply. All derogatory of course. But I am not easily offended.
You must believe in something I hope. At least in yourself?
Well, if you don't believe in yourself, then you don't exist. That's the conclusion of Quantum Mechanics.
LOL, so if I don't believe in my wife she'll disappear? I'll have to keep that in mind, or not.
If you believe strongly enough, this might happen one day. Who is going to wash dishes and wash? And vacuum cleaning Jesus perhaps?
I exist independently of quantum mechanics.
Well, this proves that you believe in yourself
Well said, RA! This is the first time I've gotten to say that to you; I'm so happy!
What do you mean, why? Because otherwise you will burn in hell for all eternity, Righteous Atheist and the God you choose not to believe in won't care. even though he loves you and everything. I have this from the horse's mouth. I rang God up this afternoon and we chatted for an hour. I had to reverse the charges, though
No, when I spoke with God on some other matters this morning it came up in conversation and he said he hasn't yet decided, but no time soon. And soon to him is 13 billion years, so...
You are lying. You could not have spoken to God this morning because I spoke to him this afternoon and he said he had never even heard of you, Rad Man.
Funny that there are actually some who listen to dates given, rather than listening to the Word and the Spirit, which specifically tells us that we won't know the day or hour (Matthew 24:36). We'll know only that the time is getting close based on the fulfillment of prophesies. Luke 21:28: "When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."
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Do you believe in the second coming of Jesus christ or not?
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