Who has the best argument about God's existence?

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  1. Paraglider profile image88
    Paragliderposted 13 years ago

    Jings, what a rant! (Jim's I mean)

  2. Pearldiver profile image71
    Pearldiverposted 13 years ago

    Wow JimLow..... This happened to me as well. Did you loose sleep like I did? I even unplugged my laptop so they would stop! yikes

    Did you manage to notice the IP numbers on the comments that this dastardly MK sent you?  Do you think your family members saw them?
    Did you make sure your cat was safe from this dastardly deed?

    Do you even have a cat? hmm

    Wow JimLow.... I know that it's important to 'stand up' to fictious things and not be bullied into accepting that you are wrong. You are so brave telling us this smile

    What does the lord say about your problem? When I told him, the lightning flashed and the skies opened up... was this a sign or was it earnestshub? hmm

    Have you considered that the crop circles were actually created by Evolution Guy in league with Gulliver Bear? hmm

    Isn't it strange that this 'person' has had vile things to say about 20% of your hubs? hmm Did it concern you that 80% of your hubs were not commented on? hmm

    This all seems so very Low... Jim.

  3. profile image0
    Scott.Lifeposted 13 years ago

    @JimLow, The problem with focusing on the things we do not like is that over time we start to reflect them and resemble them. Am I saying that the people you talk about are things to be avoided? Not at all, Mark, Earnest, Tantrum, are all people I have disagreed with on the forums. Does that make them enemies? No, that makes them human beings and thinkers. I would suggest that you take a step back and examine your faith, and take a moment to see just how much of a gift these people you feel are attacking you really are. I suggest you appreciate the opportunity to have your faith tested and beliefs strengthened. These people are not your enemies or persecutors, they are believe it or not your brothers and sisters and as you believe in God; they are his creations just as you are.

    My own biological brother is an atheist and we have heated discussions on God, but I love him, and he is part of me. Everyone of the writers you have mentioned have traded words and attitudes with me, and I guess maybe the reason I am responding to your post at all is because in a way I consider these people who disagree with me to be friends in a distant way, and if nothing else fellow students and seekers of answers. Do I care when I am ridiculed on here for my beliefs, of course I do. I also realize that behind every comment and barb is a story and reason I probably am not privy to, so I hold off judgment and reserve my theories for hubs and other articles. People do not always agree with us or even like us, that's just the way it is, but it does not determine who we are. The way we respond though says much about our character and integrity.

    Maybe these people attack you to see if your professed faith can hold up under fire. Maybe after knowing and encountering so many hypocrites and two faced believers in their lives they view people who loudly proclaim their religion with suspicion and doubt and so seek to expose the inner weakness. Who knows, I don't, maybe this is all in our imaginations. Point is let it go man and move on with your life.

    1. Bibowen profile image90
      Bibowenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Scott, if your words reflect the wisdom of your years, you must be at least 160. Well said.

  4. Mark Knowles profile image59
    Mark Knowlesposted 13 years ago

    Dear me.

    JimLow - I am really sorry you are experiencing something that makes you so uncomfortable - but -  I am not responsible for any of the things you mention other than a willingness to make fun of you all the time you post ridiculous statements like this one.

    If there is one human attribute I hold dear - it is being honest.

    I personally have elected not to go near the religion forum as myself largely thanks to the volume of hate mail I was receiving from believers.

    I also elected to create a user or two to hide behind so that I may continue to express my opinions without worrying about the mail that user might get - and if you cannot spot them - you are not looking every hard. CLUE - E.G. and U.H.A.

    Neither of whom have left you any messages or comments. And neither am I active on any other forums.

    I have not posted any messages on the faith-based garbage you may choose to write. I expressed my opinion in the one hub I have written on the subject:

    http://hubpages.com/hub/creation-v-evolution

    As far as I am concerned - what you do and write is tantamount to child abuse, and I have said so - once - which is more than enough.

    My personal feelings about child abusers - including religious ones - do not involve me leaving comments as other users and pretending to be something I am not.

    I will tell you to your face what I think of you. And will do so in person if the opportunity arises.

    This is the third or fourth time you have invoked my name on the religion forum, suggesting I would behave in this fashion. Please do not do so again.

    Don't make me come down there........ lol

    Now - I can see you are upset - but I would say an apology is in order here. I can leave a comment on one of your hubs if you like - and you will see my physical IP address is probably some considerable distance from whomever is leaving the comments.

    But I promise I have not made any.

  5. topgunjager profile image61
    topgunjagerposted 13 years ago

    You're right cagsil, those who preach about jesus and follow jesus act nothing like him, it probably got boring, but I'm sure you had fun expressing your views and opinions, I know I did=)

  6. profile image0
    JimLowposted 13 years ago

    The exact responses I was expecting - especially from Mark Knowles. I was again testing the waters. You sure you want to keep that last post up Mark?

    Mark & everyone in my pointing out his "behaviors", note that he, himself just admitted to "HIDING<<<< behind" at least two other user-names. Believe me, there are many more than that.

    Mark, Are you possibly member "UpHisAss" as well (another actual member-name that appeared very recent - guess who the implied "his" is)? How's that folks for the need to see this type thing moderated? And yes I'll admit that's the one that broke the straw for me. HubPages may have dropped that one by now if it has been detected (I have not pointed it out to them) but there are previous posts by that member-name, I suspect are still there.

    As for IP (can ONLY be done with comments), that's exactly what I pointed out to the unregistered user because he posed as TWO PEOPLE, one right behind the other on one particular day and the IP matched exactly. Those particular comments I approved for this very reason. As far as an IP staying the same, you can avoid this by simply going to another computer even at a library for example. Lots of cities have several internet providers. You can even do this by having several PCs of your own.

    I'll admit I'm not certain about ernesthub (said so earlier) but still believe it's a very strong possibility. The fact none of us are really sure about anybody, is exactly the point I was trying to make. (Your "tell hell with the truth" comment came a long time ago, get some new material. I guess that means you recognized my previous posts as containing "truth"... good for you.)

    >>>This is not about the attacks or disagreements - it is about abuse of membership and using it as a platform to engage in attacks. I've seen these type attacks lots of times before on lots of other forums.<<< I think those who stated it to be my problem, actually know this is not the case.

    As far as name-calling, Mark, anyone who wants to see where that began and where attack-posts began can look through the thread(s) and see exactly where (I mentioned this at least twice earlier, myself).

    As far as moving-on (I appreciated the member who posted that advice.), I moved-on twenty-seven years ago and this thread-happening is old-hat - I've seen it before many times. My real disagreement with multiple user name obtaining came after seeing the particular one I note above that I also suspect to be MK.

    As a final word on a particular. I have never "desired" to involve in these debates regarding Faith beliefs and God. I was lending a hand to others who were being attacked for doing so (one of them invited me) and no, it wasn't because I thought I was someone great with fabulous opinions (I'm my own harshest critic, always have been) but to help them out. I don't regret that and have surprisingly enjoyed it for the most part.

    (As far as your in-person, face-to-face mention MK, I almost fell-off my computer chair laughing. I'm 245 lb, very little fat on my body, trained in mixed martial arts (& weapons) and boxing from age twelve to twenty, trained my own son who became a boxing coach at the youth center here (true).) Drop the implied physical threats, those mean nothing and the bluff is very weak. It's the least of your concern.

    To be fair to you Mark, I give you one more opportunity in regard to the last post you made. Sure you want to keep that one up? Think about it very seriously (I'm hoping you keep it up).

    1. Mark Knowles profile image59
      Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      LOLOLOL

      Dear me.

      What physical threats? I would quite happily tell you to your face what I think of you. Regardless of how heavy you are lol

      But you seem to be saying that me giving my opinion of what I think of people like you would result in physical violence and you would hurt me physically. Is that correct?

      I will say it once more:

      I have absolutely not sent you any messages or left any comments on your hubs. Not one.

      And I do not appreciate being called a liar in public. I can - if you wish - leave a comment on one of your hubs - but I suppose you have already decided that a European IP address could be faked by someone like me determined to attack you in this fashion. Not really my job to try and educate you on this as well as evolutionary biology. wink

      You religionists never cease to amaze me.

    2. Sufidreamer profile image81
      Sufidreamerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Any proof of that? If you are going to make insinuations, you have to back it up.



      If you read his comment, I think that he already told you that was the case. You are wasting pixels.





      Yet you have ultimately decided that they are Mark - talk about manipulating the evidence to suit your own theories. By that reasoning, the IP addresses could be from anywhere in the world, so you have proved nothing. Put up or shut up - you are serving as an extremely poor advert for Christian values and it is becoming embarrassing.



      I know Earnest and Mark outside HP, so you really should stop flailing in the darkness. Unless, of course, I also have the same IP address or something.



      You just admitted that you were fishing for responses. Last time I looked, passive aggression is still an attack. I stand by my assertion that it is your problem - again, your amateur psychology is lamentable.



      lol lol lol

      I am sooooo impressed - amazing how your martyr complex is so intense that you imagine that people have physically threatened you!



      To be fair to you, Jim, I give you one more opportunity in regard to the last post you made. Sure you want to keep that one up? Think about it very seriously (I'm hoping you don't keep it up, because you are making countless Christians cringe at every comment you make).

  7. tantrum profile image60
    tantrumposted 13 years ago

    jim Low said :

    '(As far as your in-person, face-to-face mention MK, I almost fell-off my computer chair laughing. I'm 245 lb, very little fat on my body, trained in mixed martial arts (& weapons) and boxing from age twelve to twenty, trained my own son who became a boxing coach at the youth center here (true).) Drop the implied physical threats, those mean nothing and the bluff is very weak. It's the least of your concern.'


    Hello! Low! yikes big_smile lol

  8. profile image0
    JimLowposted 13 years ago

    Hello MK.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image59
      Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Hello?

      1. tantrum profile image60
        tantrumposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        HELLO?
        GOODBYE ! big_smile

  9. profile image0
    JimLowposted 13 years ago

    Ahhh backing off a bit are we? You might just pull it out of the fire yet.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image59
      Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      No I am not backing off. You have accused me of something I did not do and I would be quite happy to tell you to your face exactly what I think of people like you.

      The apparent violent response you would offer is about what I would expect from some one of your ilk. wink

  10. r2moo2 profile image59
    r2moo2posted 13 years ago

    Hey Mark Knowles, I thought you do not visit the religion forum?

    What a long thread!

    Hello all, just popping by to say hello!

    1. Mark Knowles profile image59
      Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I do when some one make libelous accusations against me.

      1. r2moo2 profile image59
        r2moo2posted 13 years agoin reply to this

        O ok. Have fun!

        I'm too lazy to go through 300 over posts for this thread.

  11. profile image0
    NateGateposted 13 years ago

    Jimlow some posting this forum act as if they don't see what you have been saying but i think they do. When i saw the 'up his a--' one pop up here i thought it was highly offensive as well and wondered if it might be this same guy who has all the memerships. I was thinking he is tantrum too but who knows for sure. I think you are right in not wanting to see it be happening. Its not right no matter who someone is.

    1. tantrum profile image60
      tantrumposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      lol lol What the Hell ? ! lol lol

      Go and write your hubs. Pleassseeee !!! lol big_smile

    2. Sufidreamer profile image81
      Sufidreamerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I'M SPARTACUS mad

    3. r2moo2 profile image59
      r2moo2posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Kinda weird of you to hide your identity with a new registration.

  12. profile image0
    JimLowposted 13 years ago

    Nate,

    Thanks very much!

    Yes, exactly! As I mentioned in my long post about the UpHisA** (should have referred to this one like you did in my earlier one - sorry about that) was the "straw that broke the camels back" for me!

    Incredible that a new member can understand where I'm coming from - "some" of the others apparently don't.

  13. Cagsil profile image77
    Cagsilposted 13 years ago

    It is interesting that people choose to take it to the next level, when the only thing happening is a conversation/discussion.

    And, the topic of the forum is no longer being discussed?

    Hmm.....what's that really saying about the people who choose to open their mouths?

    Absurdity, insanity and all completely irrational behavior. It is sickening.

    1. tantrum profile image60
      tantrumposted 13 years agoin reply to this
      1. Cagsil profile image77
        Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        lol

        1. r2moo2 profile image59
          r2moo2posted 13 years agoin reply to this

          RIGHT ON! Goodness... noone pays attention these days.

  14. r2moo2 profile image59
    r2moo2posted 13 years ago

    LOL... blame it on Jim Low... he started it

  15. profile image0
    JimLowposted 13 years ago

    More and more is revealed as these other multi-"members" add their posts. Can anyone actually say they're not seeing this?

    There's no need of gathering proof, it's right here, happening right now? (Thanks for obliging - really!)

    1. r2moo2 profile image59
      r2moo2posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      What's multi-"members"?

      What proof are you talking about?

      What's happening right now?

    2. Sufidreamer profile image81
      Sufidreamerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Which multi-members?

      You mean sock-puppet Nate?

    3. tantrum profile image60
      tantrumposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      lol lol lol
      what a LOW Sunday !
      For Christ's sake ! lol

    4. Mark Knowles profile image59
      Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Just exactly how many of these people am I supposed to be?

      Seriously - Jim - you are beginning to scare me. This is beyond a joke. For goodness' sake, leave the computer alone and go talk to a real person before you say or do something you will regret. 

      I will not be responding any further.

      1. r2moo2 profile image59
        r2moo2posted 13 years agoin reply to this

        You're right.

    5. spiderpam profile image74
      spiderpamposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I see it Jim!

  16. Cagsil profile image77
    Cagsilposted 13 years ago

    Someone do me a favor.....When the forum goes back to topic....let me know?

    This is ridiculous.

    1. r2moo2 profile image59
      r2moo2posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Ya, you're right. Catch some sleep, wake up, drink some good coffee, and slack on the sofa.

      Paradise just doing that isn't it?

  17. profile image0
    JimLowposted 13 years ago

    It likely won't return back to topic now Cagsil, so I'm leaving at this point as well. I'm now wondering if the Chinese guy with the teeth might be MK as well.

    Say your hoorahs, I'm leaving for better things that actually have some enjoyment to them. I stand behind every post I've made and loved every minute of posting them.

    Jesus is Lord!!!

    1. tantrum profile image60
      tantrumposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Yes ! and you're the Lord of the Clowns ! lol lol

    2. r2moo2 profile image59
      r2moo2posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      LOL... now I am afflicted. And do you know I am a Christian?

      Of course, Jesus is Lord, but what has that got to do with your ridiculous accusations of other people?

      1. r2moo2 profile image59
        r2moo2posted 13 years agoin reply to this

        And thanks for everyone for reading all these posts which had nothing to do with the thread topic.

        Please continue on your best argument about God's existence.

  18. r2moo2 profile image59
    r2moo2posted 13 years ago

    ......

    Jesus is Lord!

  19. topgunjager profile image61
    topgunjagerposted 13 years ago

    Reverence, fear, same message, what about this "if you don't believe in God, you'll go to hell" sounds familiar everyone? I'm sure we all remember that part of our lives, you know when we were 5 and we'll believe anything we were told because we were still intelectually defenseless=)

    1. r2moo2 profile image59
      r2moo2posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Err... I think I am blessed that I never heard that even once. Serious.

      Well, it's not like God likes to send people to hell. LOL, if He wants to send people to hell, He might as well not send Jesus to save the world.

    2. r2moo2 profile image59
      r2moo2posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I am sorry that you heard that. Must be devastating.

  20. r2moo2 profile image59
    r2moo2posted 13 years ago

    Reverence and fear. Hm.. a little different.

    I have reverence for my dad. I don't exactly fear him.

  21. topgunjager profile image61
    topgunjagerposted 13 years ago

    Sure, whatever floats your boat my friend, if it makes you happy then go for it, but I suggest that you read my hub on "who cares" so you can read up on what's really important in the world today=)

    1. r2moo2 profile image59
      r2moo2posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Hmm... I am sorry that some Christians really do the most ridiculous things ever. That must have hurt your view on Jesus.

      Anyway, what you and I desire is to be true to ourselves and others isn't it? big_smile

      Will read it in detail when I have the time. It is 3am in the morning for me.

  22. topgunjager profile image61
    topgunjagerposted 13 years ago

    Well, the lord can kisseth, my butteth for trying to scareth the crapeth out of me=)

    1. r2moo2 profile image59
      r2moo2posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      So what happened to you, is it written on your hubs? If it is, I will take note to read.

      Because I don't think you wana explain in this thread isn't it? Especially when you have already said what you said in your hubs.

      1. topgunjager profile image61
        topgunjagerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        just read it=)

        1. r2moo2 profile image59
          r2moo2posted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Ok.. will take a long while though. Sorry it is already 3:13am, really not into reading so much so early in the morning.

        2. r2moo2 profile image59
          r2moo2posted 13 years agoin reply to this

          O ok. I stole some parts of your hubs and read it.

          You are right. Religion really can kill. Very sorry to hear some of the nonsensical things that happened to you. That never was Christianity, really.

          The scaring people to heaven by threatening them with hell is ridiculous.

          Sorry for that.

          1. profile image0
            Rick Marlowposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            You claiming to be a Christian brings shame on those that really are. You better go examine yourself before God.

            1. Sufidreamer profile image81
              Sufidreamerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

              In what way? I found him to be a very pleasant and amiable man - certainly nothing to be ashamed about. I wish that there were more people with his welcoming attitude - he is a walking advert for the good things about Christianity. smile

              1. Cagsil profile image77
                Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                There is something good about "Christainity". Go figure.

                1. Sufidreamer profile image81
                  Sufidreamerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  I know many very nice Christians - they do not go out forcing lumps of scripture down people's throats, but show kindness and compassion all day, every day.

                  On the other hand, go back a couple of pages and I see where you are coming from lol

                  1. Cagsil profile image77
                    Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    Well, to be honest- I have been following this topic since it was posted....because it poses an interest appeal.

                    Think about it- Who has the best argument about God's existence?

                    It presents an argumentive environment before you even get started....saying "argument".

                    So, even if you present a rational, well thought out basis, it would automatically present believers with an argumentive reason to defend their belief.

                    How ever, even a rational person, if presented with a rational explanation that would dispute "god's" existence or a higher power....it would make other of strict beliefs to contest the accuracy of one's explanation.

                    Even, if they whole-heartedly want to rationalize their actions, they cannot because in the end.....they are focused on getting their point across as though what they have learned through whatever text(even if the context is out of whack) has been learned.

                    The bottomline: Religion was revealed as a hoax- via a very creative researcher.....and even though it's completely logic based, not faith based, believers dismiss it and make claims thru their own scriptures(which they learned) to dispute it.

                    So....I find it interesting....lol

              2. profile image0
                Rick Marlowposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                There is a difference in reaching out to others and straddling the fence.Lukewarm is spewed from the mouth.Read his comments.

                1. Sufidreamer profile image81
                  Sufidreamerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  I did read his comments, and he is a very polite and well-considered man. I am not sure exactly what you are trying to say - that he is not on here preaching hell and brimstone? What is lukewarm? You are not making a lot of sense. hmm

                  1. profile image0
                    Rick Marlowposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    I was criticized recently by another believer for reaching out to Earnesthubs in friendship.I guess R2moo2 was doing the same.He was agreeing with mk about Jim Low`s comments being rediculous.He actually jumped in and supported the others cause. I believe you play on one team at a time.You don`t change directions in the middle of the stream.Maybe I got caught up in the heat of exchanges and rushed to conclusions.
                    My apology to R2moo2 and the rest of the forum

              3. r2moo2 profile image59
                r2moo2posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Thanks for speaking for me. Was 3am in the morning and needed some sleep.

                Really appreciate it. big_smile

        3. profile image0
          Rick Marlowposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          I was ,I think,the first responder to you on hubs.You sure gave me a different impression of what you were searching for.Man,what a letdown.Good luck in your quest.

  23. topgunjager profile image61
    topgunjagerposted 13 years ago

    Thank you mr. Marlow, I was just trying to tell everyone that preaching is not doing anything good for this planet. It would be nice if both sides would just shut up and contribute to this world by helping the less fortunate instead of preaching about how good the lord is, when was the last time you helped out a desperate person mr. Marlow?smile

    1. profile image0
      Rick Marlowposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      As a matter of fact,just last week when a person walked up to my front door pleading for gas so he could get to work. I never had seen the person in my life.But I took him to the gas station (7 miles ) and bought him gas and took him back and got his vehicle going.And,I almost forgot that 3 days ago a man 1 1/2 miles from here ,whom I did not know broke down across the road.Dead battery.I pushed his truck with my truck all the way to his door step.I used to help folks financially before my health went bad.Now I can`t.BUT i KNEW YOUR HEART IN YOUR FIRST 2 HUBS.sorry,I hit caps.I too,have been hungry to where my bones ached and lived on the streets.

  24. topgunjager profile image61
    topgunjagerposted 13 years ago

    Good for you mr. Marlow, I'm sure your actuons spoke louder than any preaching ever could. No matter what you believe in, people will respect you more and see you as a good example as long as you're doing real acts of kindness. Hope you don't forget that preachers creates preachers and doers creates doers, hope you know which of these the world actually needs today to go to heaven=)

  25. topgunjager profile image61
    topgunjagerposted 13 years ago

    Sorry to hear about your health by the way mr. Marlow, I hope you're doing something to make it better, the world needs more people like you, the side of you that cares for the less fortunate and actually does something about it=)

  26. Cagsil profile image77
    Cagsilposted 13 years ago

    I am right now, working on converting messages of Jesus Christ and putting some of them into proper context, so I can make a hub about it.

    I find it fascinating, because it is so rational and filled with so much logic.....it won't be difficult to break the barriers many people have about it.

    How ever, I still find it interesting to read some of scriptures that get spouted, because I can write them down, go back to my research and then put them in correct text.

    Not that anyone would believe me, but hey it's worth a shot if I can help people to understand or even make the second guess what they've learned.

    To me, it is important to get rid of religion all-together, because- as of right now....people believe it to be fact, which is false, but I want to give them something to think about.

  27. profile image0
    EnglishMposted 13 years ago

    Who has the best argument about God's existence? That was the original question (if my memory serves me well). I have the best explanation in the world, but you'll never know that unless you read it, and be kind enough to give me your opinion.

    1. Cagsil profile image77
      Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      And what is that, if you don't mind me asking?

    2. Cagsil profile image77
      Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I went to your hub....read your piece on immortality and science about it. I also left a comment.

      1. profile image0
        EnglishMposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        With the utmost respect, Cagsil, my explanation is a group of six hubs, and I know that you haven't read them, because the 24th chromosome and the appendix tube are certainly worthy of a mention in anyone's observations. Your interest is appreciated.

        1. Cagsil profile image77
          Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          I will be reading the rest.

          1. profile image0
            EnglishMposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            And I sincerely look forward to your thoughts on my research, thank you.

            1. Cagsil profile image77
              Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

              No problem.

  28. Valerie F profile image61
    Valerie Fposted 13 years ago

    Also, "creative researcher" is kind of an oxymoron. Researchers are to study facts, not create them.

    1. Cagsil profile image77
      Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      True enough. But, when the bible says one thing and then contradicts itself....the truth is somewhere to be found.

      1. Sufidreamer profile image81
        Sufidreamerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        You would be surprised - pretty much all research has some element of creativity involved. Ten researchers can look at the same facts and come up with ten different answers. There are few absolutes, which is what makes debate interesting smile

  29. profile image0
    Scott.Lifeposted 13 years ago

    I often run into conflict with proponents from both sides. They would like me to pick a team so to speak once and for all. I won't though. I walk between both groups and hold to tenants of both sides because. I don't fit in a neat little box with a clearly printed label, and that confuses people and extremist from both camps tell me what I am doing is counter to the belief I profess. What they really mean is decide one way or the other so they can hate or love me.

    I can't hold religion and the Bible as an absolute because as soon as I do, something comes along to make me question that.Also I believe to do so is contrary to the spirit of Jesus message and life. However I can't live my life solely on facts because as soon as I do I limit my ability to change and adapt to new situations and opportunities. I need to stay fluid and mobile. I have to be able to change, and so view the world as a constantly changing place. I pull my answers from every available source and then filter it through several mediums, then I choose to accept it or reject it myself.

  30. Valerie F profile image61
    Valerie Fposted 13 years ago

    I believe that in the grand scheme of things, there is a correct scientific explanation for everything. However, that an event can be scientifically explained does not change my opinion that the universe's very existence and dynamism is miraculous.

    1. profile image0
      Scott.Lifeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      When I read about the complexity and shear awesome scale of the Universe around me, and all that goes into even the smallest particle, I am awed. Science is not my enemy but my tool and everyday it uncovers a world beyond my imagination. I am grateful for it. I also believe that one day on a long enough time line all things will be explained. That is our nature as humans to ask questions and seek the answers.

      1. Cagsil profile image77
        Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        True enough.

  31. Sufidreamer profile image81
    Sufidreamerposted 13 years ago

    I think that a lot of the problem is that scientists and theologians speak different languages. Most of the greatest minds throughout history, whether in science or religion, had a good understanding of philosophy. Nowadays, that seems to be too rare in religion vs science debate, and that is sad and leads to endless circles of repeating argument.

    Again, I agree with Scott - I am a biologist and a proponent of evolution, but have no problem mixing that with faith. Others are welcome to disagree because, ultimately, I feel no pressing need to justify my position to anybody but myself smile

    EDIT: Scott - will you stop bloody doing that. I was just about to use the little box argument myself. It is like you are reading my mind and it is getting freaky lol

  32. profile image0
    Rick Marlowposted 13 years ago

    I do not totally agree with all aspects of creation or evolution.My lifes experiences have taught me to leave the door unlocked so something else can come in. As you stated, setting your mind to this point and this one thing only, only proves futile as a new one comes along.Those that rail in here about absolute facts can not back them up.With science or faith.GOD CAN EXIST...EVOLUTION CAN EXIST...CREATIONISM CAN EXIST.

    1. Cagsil profile image77
      Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Yes, to an open-minded person "anything is possible" and that is the reason behind what's driving mankind.

      The biggest problem with Evolution is it seems to be missing a link, but the link isn't what people think. Which tells me that they are looking in the wrong place and trying to answer a question that might never be able to answer, such as how did mankind come to be?

      The proof of Evolution is our mind's ability. Which is unlimited and as scott said- some people who have miracluously recover from life taking illness and make full recovery. It's the power of the body and the mind of those to heal themselves.

      Which is always a possibility.

      1. profile image0
        Rick Marlowposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        Now you`re using that magical word that you so often run from,Possibility.That`s what I`ve looked for from you all this time.

        1. profile image0
          Rick Marlowposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          You`re a staunch,defender of your beliefs as we all are,but you always had slammed the door to possibilities.Therefore your analogies meant nothing to me.Nooowwww,We are on the same street.

          1. Cagsil profile image77
            Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            But, my own research of not just Julian Jaynes and Dr. Frank R. Wallace and of other things, such as science, philosophy and those who masters in their fields, leaves no room for anything in a bible.

            So, when I say, anything is possible- it doesn't mean that I am open to a "GOD" figure, because everything else I learned tells me....that a mythical figure, such as "GOD" is impossible in reality. Therefore it doesn't exist and there is no proof that it does.

            1. profile image0
              Rick Marlowposted 13 years agoin reply to this

              There is hope yet.

              1. Cagsil profile image77
                Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Don't count on it....lol

            2. Valerie F profile image61
              Valerie Fposted 13 years agoin reply to this

              In other words, you just contradicted yourself.

              1. Cagsil profile image77
                Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                By your interpretation....you see a contradiction. The impossible is based on reality and what can be proven.

                Anything is possible mentality is based on reality, not mystical properties.

                1. Valerie F profile image61
                  Valerie Fposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Nothing to interpret. If anything is possible, God is possible, too. If you believe God is impossible, you then don't really believe anything is possible.

                  And I still haven't seen any proof that religion in general is a hoax, or that there is nothing real about what you write off as "mystical."

              2. Cagsil profile image77
                Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                You know you can prove something to be impossible even tho you think anything is possible.

                If you can't agree....then I'm sorry.

                Reality is based on consciousness and honesty with oneself. Proving the impossible....as an example- Zen test of student who must contemplate the reality of a "one-handed clap".

                Prove it can be done?

                It can't because clapping requires two hands...therefore it makes it impossible.....yet you think anything is possible.....a proven fact that it cannot be done.

                See the point?

                1. Valerie F profile image61
                  Valerie Fposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Depends on how you define "clapping." That being said, here I go with snapping one hand shut just to prove I can make a sound with my fingers striking my palm.

                  That's about where Zen lost me.

                  I do not believe reality is based on consciousness, because one's awareness, one's perception, one's consciousness of a thing has no bearing on whether or not it is real.

                  Otherwise, you'll just have to concede that God exists because I would not be honest with myself if I denied that I am, despite not fully comprehending, still somehow conscious of the Supreme Being. That is, as some people would put it, "my" reality.

                  Problem is that I don't believe in "my" reality or "your" reality. There is only Reality, and regarding the question of whether or not God exists, one of us is wrong.

                  1. Cagsil profile image77
                    Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    Well, I guess you have a problem.

                    You believe your consciousness tells you are alive. Thus, that is your reality.

                    How you can sit there and say that they have nothing to do with one another, would lead one to believe you are conflicted.

                    You cannot be conscious of a 'supreme' being, because you can never prove to yourself that it is real, regardless of how hard you try.

                    If you can not pick up on it from the 5 senses you are equipped it, then it is obviously not based in reality.

                    As for the one-handed clap test....how is clapping defined? If you are not sure, please by all means, grab a dictionary and figure it out for yourself- I will not be your external authority, nor do I choose to be.

                    You are welcome to believe what you want.

                    Reality exists and there is only one reality. There isn't a "my" or "your" reality. What made you come up with that...who knows?

        2. Cagsil profile image77
          Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          What?

  33. Valerie F profile image61
    Valerie Fposted 13 years ago

    I used to work as a professional researcher. My job was to gather the facts, not to draw or (in the case of Mr. Jaynes), leap wildly to conclusions from them. That was for the data analysis people. And even they are not supposed to be "creative" about it, because reliable research and analysis is to be as objective as possible.

    1. Sufidreamer profile image81
      Sufidreamerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      With you, now - looks like we are using different definitions of 'research' smile

      I am looking more from the angle of academic research - most of my work consists of finding information and analyzing it, as part of the process.

      1. Valerie F profile image61
        Valerie Fposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        Even in your case, reliable research and analysis means setting your personal biases and your creativity aside. Otherwise, you skew the results of your studies.

        1. Sufidreamer profile image81
          Sufidreamerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Difficult - if that were possible, I would be out of a job smile

          Put it this way - if I research all of the known facts about Ancient Sparta, for example, I still have to use creativity and judgment to create an overall picture from scraps of information. Different archaeologists will disagree on many things, but that is the way it works and progresses.

          Even with the scientific method, unless you are a physicist, there is always a need for some conjecture and personal input. Remaining completely objective is an impossible ideal - I studied fisheries, and that is a very difficult field to conduct research without generating some validity issues.

          If it were possible to throw personal bias and creativity aside, then academics would all agree - they argue more than anybody smile

          1. Cagsil profile image77
            Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Touche!

            lol  lol

  34. Cagsil profile image77
    Cagsilposted 13 years ago

    So, back to topic....who has the best argument about God's existence?lol

    1. profile image0
      EnglishMposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I do (you fell right into that one, Cagsil).

      1. Cagsil profile image77
        Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        Where did I fall? And into what did I fall?

        lol

    2. Sufidreamer profile image81
      Sufidreamerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      My cat smile

      1. Cagsil profile image77
        Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        I have two...but what's that got to do with the topic?lol

        1. Sufidreamer profile image81
          Sufidreamerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          He is wise beyond his years and knows many things. smile

          1. Cagsil profile image77
            Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            In reality, I would find your cat to be no better than the people Jesus Christ taught....lol

            1. Sufidreamer profile image81
              Sufidreamerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

              He has digested a lot of Plato and Aristotle smile









              When I say 'digested,' I mean that he has a habit of chewing my books sad

              1. Cagsil profile image77
                Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Well, at least it had a full stomach.

                I'm not much for Plato.

                I do like Aristotle though.

                1. Sufidreamer profile image81
                  Sufidreamerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  I always went for Aristotle - inevitable with a science background smile

                  Mind you, I remember reading Plato's Forms. I thought it sounded a little crazy until I sat down with my carving tools and a block of olive wood. It suddenly made perfect sense big_smile

                  1. Cagsil profile image77
                    Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    Well, Plato never achieved the breakthrough his teacher did and his outlook on humanity was skewed, because he never reached the clarity his teacher had.

                    But, Aristotle had a better understanding.

  35. Cagsil profile image77
    Cagsilposted 13 years ago

    So, what say you English?

  36. profile image0
    JimLowposted 13 years ago

    I had to come bact to post one final time.

    First - tantrum, no thanks for the offer to be lord over you and your group - not interested.

    Now, following below are MK's other a.k.a. (UpHisAss) profile-comments but first remember this quote from his earlier post:

    "I also elected to create a user or two to hide behind so that I may continue to express my opinions without worrying about the mail that user might get - and if you cannot spot them - you are not looking every hard. CLUE - E.G. and U.H.A." <<< (as in UpHisAss) - from post-page 361 to 380

    Here is UpHisAss's profile comments:

    "I adhere to the Nine Satanic Statements in my Daily life, which are:.

    Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence.

    Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams.

    Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit.

    Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates.

    Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek.

    Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires.

    Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all.

    Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification.

    Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years.

    I find most so-called "christians" adhere to these principals - despite what they may say to your face. I prefer to be honest and forthright.

    The 9 Satanic sins are:

    Stupidity

    Pretentiousness

    Solipsism

    Self-deceit

    Herd Conformity

    Lack of Perspective

    Forgetfulness of Past Orthodoxies

    Counterproductive Pride

    Lack of Aesthetics

    Most of which so-called "cristians" exhibit also."

    He also has MK (one of his own personas) listed as a fan and this was his fanmail-comment to UpHisAss:
    "Welcome to hubpages. Your version of the truth seems somehow more honest."

    You know Mark you may not believe this but I would have not only understood why you've been doing these things on the forums if you had just admitted to being a satanist. I don't see why you thought it was necessary to keep it a secret. My comments to you would have come from a different approach.

    Anyway, this is absolutely my last post but I thought members might be interested in this. It certainly explains a great deal doesn't it!?

    1. earnestshub profile image84
      earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      lol lol Go low! lol

    2. spiderpam profile image74
      spiderpamposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      You're right Jim, MK is evolguy too. Have a great night Jim.

      1. earnestshub profile image84
        earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        Low jim reckons he is gone, I don't believe it. lol
        Got any more conspiracy offerings? Maybe god is evoguy? lol
        Maybe you and low jim should read a few profiles! lol

    3. Sufidreamer profile image81
      Sufidreamerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I guess that the 'irony gene' passed you by.

      Jim - you are probably a nice guy, but are doing yourself no favours here. It is becoming painful to watch you dig yourself deeper. neutral

      Cagsil: I used to partake of the D&D big_smile

      Must agree - I do have problems coming back to reality, sometimes, but then earthly affairs need to be taken care of. I wish that somebody would send my monthly bills into an unearthly and mystical realm hmm

      Too tired for deep philosophy, now - I am a very inward looking person and have my own inbuilt set of values. Much too complex to explain, nor do I feel the pressing need to share, but I enjoy life very much and am quite happy blundering through it. smile

      Anyway, late here, so time for bed. I enjoyed the discussion tonight - nice to have a constructive debate with no lumps of scripture flying backwards and forwards big_smile

      1. Cagsil profile image77
        Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        have a good night

  37. Cagsil profile image77
    Cagsilposted 13 years ago

    Since that will be your last post, according to your words, I will be nice.

    I read one of your hubs the other day. I found it somewhat interesting reading, but to be honest- it's length was a bit much, even for me.

    I didn't leave a comment, cause by the time I got done reading it, I notice you only take good or nice comments and since I really didn't have anything nice to say, I said nothing.

    It took a great amount of restraint. But, two minutes later I felt better.

    However, with that said- I'm probably going to read your interpretations on Evolution...just see what you've come up with.

    But, either way have fun.

  38. Cagsil profile image77
    Cagsilposted 13 years ago

    Don't get me wrong.....I'm am an avid Dungeons and Dragons fan, so imagination and creation of stories can be fun.

    Delving into mysticism on occassion is and can be hilarious, but then we must come back to reality.

    lol

  39. Cagsil profile image77
    Cagsilposted 13 years ago

    The natural desire in each person to achieve perfection in the things they do is natural. It helps one to build their self-esteem, through trial and error.

    You cannot have success without failure. You will always fail, but it is what do you take away from your failure that helps you build success.

    You cannot achieve true success through deceit(mysticism).

    Honesty in thoughts and your actions is the only way to truly be one with yourself and that's really what we each should want to achieve.

    Not be lead by a 'higher' authority that tells us...desire is bad, selfishness is bad(this can be good at times).

    It is against human nature to take orders or commands from external authorities. You have a consciousness about you and you also have a conscience, which tells you between right and wrong.

    With that- you only need to lead yourself, guide yourself and you can have everything in life that you choose to want.

  40. Cagsil profile image77
    Cagsilposted 13 years ago

    Hey Earnestshub?

    You still here?

    And, if so....did you know that when Jesus Christ talked to his followers...he constantly keep confusing them?

  41. tantrum profile image60
    tantrumposted 13 years ago

    Jim Low wrote:

    'Anyway, this is absolutely my last post but I thought members might be interested in this. It certainly explains a great deal doesn't it!?'

    No, we're not interested. Your posts are too LOW


    And about this :

    'First - tantrum, no thanks for the offer to be lord over you and your group - not interested. '

    I wasn't offering you anything. I was giving you a title I thoght you deserved.
    Nothing wrong in being a clown. Thanks for thinking I'm one !

    Interesting how you use all the time the word 'interested'
    Not interesting, mind ! lol lol

  42. Cagsil profile image77
    Cagsilposted 13 years ago

    Hey tantrum

    1. tantrum profile image60
      tantrumposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      What's up ?

      1. Cagsil profile image77
        Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        Not much & U?

        1. tantrum profile image60
          tantrumposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          I'm very LOW tonight ! big_smile

          1. earnestshub profile image84
            earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            lol

            1. tantrum profile image60
              tantrumposted 13 years agoin reply to this

              Hi earnest ! smile

          2. Cagsil profile image77
            Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            lol

  43. earnestshub profile image84
    earnestshubposted 13 years ago

    Goodnight Sufi, I hope you have a great night's sleep. smile
    Hello Tantrum! smile

  44. Sufidreamer profile image81
    Sufidreamerposted 13 years ago

    Have a good day, Earnest and good evening Cagsil and Tantrum. Catch you all later smile

  45. Cagsil profile image77
    Cagsilposted 13 years ago

    If this helps, then I'm glad to be of assistance.

    Here is the philosophical definition created by Aristotelian logic:

    Reality is what exists. Reality exists independently of anyone's thoughts, desires, will or wishes. All reality is knowable.

  46. Sprinkler Man profile image58
    Sprinkler Manposted 13 years ago

    It just so happens that we all Evolved from something - right? Like maybe monkeys? Oh wait, we still have monkeys, so what were monkeys before we evolved? Oh wait, you mean that there are two very distinctive monkeys and they can mate and make more monkeys? Oh man I am confused. If I evolved from something how could there have been two of the exact same thing that kept on evolving and why haven't I turned into something that could fly or swim yet?

    You people that believe in evolution are about as ignorant as some of the questions I have listed above. Your scientific data on evolution is even more ignorant or arrogant.

    Most everything on this planet has to have male and female to reproduce, how did two similar species of everything on this planet evolve so that they could reproduce? it makes no sense, it is about the most ignorant question on this planet.

    Why would you even consider evolution, I know why, so you do not have to believe in a God. If you did, you would then have to live by his rules and that is where the stubbornness comes in. You do not want to believe in a creator because of his rules or laws. You want to live by your own set of rules and beliefs because you are so arrogant and you want to make your own rules.

    Humans, mammals, insects, reptiles, animals everything on this planet just so happen to evolve in pairs (male and female) and could reproduce? Give us all - intelligent humans a break!!!

    One blood cell in our body has more atoms in it than the stars in our solar system. Hmmmm, now how did that evolve? some evolutionary possibility? Some blob or goo just happened to evolve into something, that could never have happened in trillions of years. Nothing is evolving, mutations are exactly that, mutations, they are never going to evolve into something with a heart and a brain and lungs and a circulatory system and get up and walk around? They will always need a host to support them and they will die with the host or be killed off by medicines or our own immune system.

    I hope this about sums it up for your argument on God's existence or our creator. I don't really care if any of you non-believers believe in God or not but without Him in your life, what is your point of living? If you just live for a while and then die with nothing after this life, nothing to look forward to - whats the point?

    Why do you think that you were created? Your consciousness came from somewhere, you did not evolve into a living, caring human being on your own. God put you on this planet for a reason, you should at least be grateful. One egg, 400 million sperm - shouldn't you feel lucky? You could have easily been flushed down the toilet or left on a sheet somewhere.

    SM

  47. quietnessandtrust profile image61
    quietnessandtrustposted 13 years ago

    The answer is quite simple and direct...

    I  AM

    1. aguasilver profile image69
      aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Amen and amen

  48. profile image52
    Krewkinaposted 13 years ago

    Their is no answer to this, by faith it's contradicting, and by science unproved,leaving the question open to "yes", or "no". To tell one group that they are wrong is wrong and illogical in itself. With faith one holds the right to have their beliefs and follow such values that are convicted to it.  As a scientist, while evidence may lead towards a non-existence of GOD, the answer is inconclusive. (Is that not how science works?)

    When comes to my personal beliefs to Faith in Christianity ,there are many questions that come to my mind. Christianity tells us that,'Man was created in the image of GOD.'He distinguish humans by giving us the ability to think. He made us the way we are, so why would I be wrong to use my gift from GOD, to not do, "GOD'S WILL". And it doesn't explain why bad things can happen to good people.0 If he wanted us to do his "Will"then why give us FREE WILL, the POWER OF CHOICE.
    For me, GOD did create us, and he is almighty, but he already gave us the only thing we need, "Free Will",Our choices and decision as humans are, one way or another, why our lives are what they are. GOD's gift gave us the ability to create opportunities, and we decide to take them as we please. When you do something that makes you feel good, it gives you a sense of self-worth,building meaning, WE CREATE OUR OWN MEANING TO LIVE. If you live doing wrong and build guilt, you may die with it, to me, that is the definition of HELL, dying with guilt and regret, and that becomes the meaning that you chose for your life.

  49. Paradise7 profile image73
    Paradise7posted 13 years ago

    Mark, you just can't stop. 

    Like ya anyway, Mr. Obsessive-Compulsive.  But you'd be a lot nicer of a person if you could bring yourself to stop pulling the cat's tail.  You know?

    1. Mark Knowles profile image59
      Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      That would mean the cat was perfect and spoke for God.

      Odd that - I would like to see that vanish and maybe, just maybe - we can see religion for what it really is - and maybe get along?

      1. sooner than later profile image61
        sooner than laterposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        it would be better once you realized that you can't change anything.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image59
          Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Really ? So - nothing I can say will stop religionists like you from causing wars?

          Too bad. sad

          Guess I should shut up then?

          Let you get on with it?

          Sure.

          It would be better once you realized YOU are the problem. wink

      2. mohitmisra profile image61
        mohitmisraposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        I miss your sense of humour, you can crack jokes on me ,with me, no problem. smile

  50. sooner than later profile image61
    sooner than laterposted 13 years ago

    k thanks.

 
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