Does any sane person believe that humanity has learned all there is to learn about the universe? I sincerely doubt it. Yet when unbelievers dismiss as impossible those things which superficially appear incompatible with our current understanding of the universe (e.g. the existence of a "spirit world", the Genesis account of Creation, the miracles of Christ as recorded in the Gospels, the very existence of God, etc.), aren't they implying that we do know all there is to know?
Are you saying we should accept the ridiculous because we cannot "know all there is to know"?
At what point is it reasonable to apply common sense?
What is ridiculous? Is anything that can't be perceived with the physical senses ridiculous? Is the "big bang theory " ridiculous? Einstein and most of the scientific community once thought so. Is the concept of dark matter ridiculous? Can you see, hear, or feel dark matter? Or antimatter? or even gravity? Does that mean those things do not exist?
I'm not saying we should or should not accept anything. I am only saying that to dismiss as impossible or "ridiculous" anything that is not compatible with our current understanding of our universe is to greatly limit the potential for discovery. Perhaps mankind's greatest limitation is its own narrowmindedness.
i hate to seem disrespectful but the only people who appear to be "narrow-minded" are Christian people. scientific minds have, through the ages, been the ones to question everything, imagine every possibility and attempt to find the truth, not just blindly accept what others tell them as fact. how can you talk about "mankind's limitations" when scienctific innovations have cracked open the Universe?
(Is the concept of dark matter ridiculous? Can you see, hear, or feel dark matter? Or antimatter? or even gravity? Does that mean those things do not exist?)
If you talk about concepts then that's what they are: CONCEPTS. People have conceived of mermaids swimming in the gaseous oceans of Jupiter. There is no problem with concepts until someone insists that they are reality. That is when "proof" knocks on your door. The person making the positive claim needs to provide proof.
There are hundreds of claims posted on the net each day. I don't see you or anybody else accepting them as fact without proof. What makes your claims so special so as to be exempt from proof?
Also, if you claim a concept "exists", it only exists in minds. If you disagree, then for the purposes of science you must propose an unambiguous definition for "exist".
There is a difference in "accepting" and "not dismissing as impossible".
Are you serious? So you are ACCEPTING all the hundreds of claims everybody and their brother proposes on a daily basis? Both you and I know that you don't do that
A claim, any claim, is not deemed to be possible or impossible. Science doesn't deal in likelihoods. If the claim is "reality", science will study it. Science is the study of existence.
If you don't like the constraints imposed by science, your other options are:
1) Using any system of logic, prove that the claim is true in reality. Even if it cannot be scientifically tested, prove that it is logically true.
2) Use religion/faith-based arguments to demonstrate your claim in the context of a specific religion. In this context, your claim is ALWAYS true!
So I should not apply common sense then?
Because I cannot "see" gravity - I should not dismiss the relgious garbage spouted by Christians as "ridiculous."
I should not dismiss the ridiculous notion that we are "born in sin" and god died to save us from our sins as being utter garbage.
They could be right when they say that the invisible god is offended by homosexuals.
Interesting. And this is being "open minded,"?
I should not look at the evidence for evolution as being in any way indicative that the Genesis creation account is not to be taken literally.
Sorry - I need to apply some common sense to what I am prepared to accept as reasonable and just because I cannot see it does not mean it exists.
Plus - of course - your religion is ridiculous. Sorry.
At best, I could become an agnostic - but it is much more entertaining to take a solid viewpoint that god does not exist - if only to listen to the ridiculous argument that because I cannot know everything - I should not dismiss it.
But we can dismiss all the other gods, the Flying Spaghetti Monster and unicorns and the Tooth Fairy etc - because they are just silly.
not at all. in fact, scientific people acknowledge that the entire body of work that Man has done is just the tip of the iceberg to what lies yet undiscovered. there are many scientists who believe in God, past and present.
The existence of a spirit world is unprovable and so cannot be categorically denied, that is right.
The Genesis account of Creation is just dumb, thus the reason for not believing it.
Miracles are probably performed at certain times by certain people: I don't see why not, so I agree there.
God, too, could exist, it can't be proved otherwise, but the God of the Bible is a weird cookie, so let us hope he doesn't at least (I mean, maybe a slightly different version might be ok -- and you probably couldn't disprove the existence of a God like that, but lay off on some of the weirder stuff: things have got to square with common sense, and logic, at least to some degree; isn't that the criteria we use as human beings "made in God's image" to decide what to discuss, and what to forget: we're not just monkeys after all )
This argument is so idiotic I took about 10 minutes deciding whether to respond. Now I am, it seems so glaringly obvious what the mistake is to everyone, I'm not even going to make an effort.
Great topic. Don't worry about mark if you want him to go away ask him to prove molecule to man evolution without voodoo. He'll flee then.
No - he won't. Sorry you cannot understand that even if evolution was a lie - your beliefs are still nonsense. Sorry.
You must be very angry. I don't blame you.
I would be too.
Right. Imagine... a religion that says -
If you believe explanation x about molecular biology you cannot enter the presence of God!
Ha Do it again ACT sympathetic! It’s funny and revealing. Just remember you don't need to prove your myth. Just keep screaming it's true, bring back evol guy. 0+0=?
Actually, Dr. Gerald Schroeder (two doctorates from MIT)has shown that The science of the big bang and Darwinism are completely compatible with Genesis. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid … 891971315#
So - are you open to the idea that you are delusional?
Again I say, Genesis, Smenesis. If you are a Christian aren't you supposed to be focused on Christ -- the bits about him are written hundreds of years after Genesis was put to paper, and appear hundreds of pages after Genesis in the Bible. It seems to me that some of you guys are Genesistians not Christians -- who cares about Genesis; heck, who cares about Evolution -- I thought your purpose here on earth was to be an embodied witness of Christ's transforming power through the good works that are the fruit of your faith: not armchair biologists -- you're in the wrong job
See that’s blind faith, you must be an evolutionist. God told you to test all things and hold on to truth, He tells us not to believe every sprit and to be weary of so called science. We know Moses existed for a fact and he was descended from Adam. Jesus often quoted from Genesis so we know it's a fact. You can have blind faith, but that's not Christianity.
Look, I may no longer be a church-attending Christian, but now you are insulting all those good, card-carrying evangelical friends I used to have -- why should I believe you over them!!!
I'm not an evolutionist because I am not a professional biologist. I suspect evolution is right, but, frankly, I don't really care that much. I also couldn't care less about Moses (despite the great beard). Why should I?
Tell me my friends don't believe in "real" Christianity again and I'll poke you in the eye (though I suspect I'll need a long finger -- I am very far away...)
I will assume this is what you are trying to say.
Please answer my question.
Are open to the possibility that you are wrong and are under a delusion?
Nice though. Very condescending. You are a christian - right?
Also - are you open to the possibility that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is the One True God?
The Flying Spaghetti Monster IS the True God. It said so on an old manuscript I found and have taken as literal truth
It is impossible to deny unless you know everything.
Play on words - you wouldn't understand.
You can't spell, I understand that! Education, get some
Really? Then please explain how nothing (no space, no matter, no energy, no void, no god) can surreptitiously create 3-D objects like stars and planets. The doctor is pushing yet another blood line to Yahweh & Allah.
The Law of Cause and Effect, God being the uncaused cause.
Every effect has a cause, and a cause is an effect from another cause.
You said that god is not an effect and does not have a cause.
This means that god cannot partake in any cause & effect in reality because god self-refutes the laws of causality.
Therefore god is only a concept!
Nope it means we wouldn't be here if there was a infinite regression meaning God must be personal and purposeful, and eternal.
Let me try and explain (as well as I can) in terms of dimension. by definition we see a change as occuring over time, although, in a one dimensional universe everything is at one infinitely small point and hence theoretically 'nothing' without latter dimensions. These dimensions could have come into being regardless of time (or outside it's constraints, but then, there was no outside, but infentissimal inside XD), as time is one of them, so time could in theory have started without having existed. This then begs the question as to whether time does exist, which is something now being challenged by some.(but I do not know enough to fill you in exactly, and at the moment that area is almost entirely speculative, aside from proving quantum equations without means of time)
The reason this is a hard concept to grasp is out understanding of the world relies so much upon progression in 'time' that it is nigh on impossible to discount it from the equation at any stage. Still, while these theories are tough to prove, more evidence is always going to come along, while humans live to persevere and explore
Interesting thoughts, but that's not what science says. You want put down Christians for not knowing science then when we use science you jump to philosophical babble.
Explain how something can come from nothing in contradiction to the first law of thermodynamics.
The universe is experiencing heat death as predicted by the second law of thermodynamics. So how do evolutionists justify proposing that energy always existed and had no beginning?
What is the evidence that the universe increased in its order and complexity after the big bang in contradiction to the second law of thermodynamics.
I bloody hate you. You know why? Because my answer to your question WAS THE COMMENT YOU WERE QUESTIONING. Did you not read it or did it translate itself in your head into some sort of mush of uncomprehension? Do you want pictures with that?
Also, don't misuse science to your own false ends. When you give me a FULL explanation of the Laws of Thermodynamics, equations and summises intact, then we'll talk
Why? I know what they say, you don't. Will it really change your worldview? Nah.
You evidently don't, or you would have told me
Now go ahead, go search on google You MAY actually learn something.
How do you know it wasn't a passing Martian who caused it (or, in this case, him)?
Actually didn't you know it's turtles all the way down?
Given you're in the Southwest, and I am northeast of the Northeast (with a giant snowstorm heading for me as I type), this will have to be a cybermarriage
you had me at Calvin and Hobbes
those turtles were just the icing on the cake.
Is that what the church taught you?
Here's a tip for you: In the system of classical logic, anything resolving to infinite regress is actually a logical INDUCTIVE PROOF for an eternal context.
You have just PROVEN via induction that the universe is eternal.
I know, I know, you didn't see this one coming. I've nailed William Lane Craig on this one before. It's one of his favorite BS arguments!
Schroeder is a religionist, what else would you expect?
If he flees, it will only be to escape your lack of knowledge and refusal to understand his logic, which seems to me to be undeniable.
Keep it up Mark!
If you say so. Do you want to learn about evolution I'd be glad to give you a lesson.
You can try. Although I might be able to pick you up, you see I am actually fairly clued up, and have a fairly wide Biological knowledge. Give me what you got
Oh but keep it short, because I'll be honest, my attention span can fade if something is uninteresting Then again, make it interesing and you shall obtain my undivided attention.
I think tis is a very strange view to take, you are suggesting that lack of knowledge is proof of God?
Most scientists are more than aware of what they don't know, from Gravity to anti matter. Scientists are not particularly against religion, though mostly they are against the specific existance of God.
Please remember that most people disbelieve in God because it is similair to Father Christmas or the Easter Bunny, not because of any actual scientific basis.
As with Santa Claus etc, unbelievers have no real concern about other peoples belief, that is generally something that happens between other religions. I mayself have no belief in God because I view relegion as just another fairy story. It has it's uses, just as Santa Claus does, but it's something that should be grown out of, and definately be the cause of the misery in the world today.
They usually know a gullible fool when they meet one.
The thing about your stock answer Ron, is that it is indubitably correct!
Just different approaches to knowledge. Many non theists are evidentialists, meaning that something is only accepted (tentatively) as true based on the evidence that supports it. And only objective (not subjective) evidence will do. The issue is that theism, by its very nature, lacks such evidence. If someone's approach to knowledge is evidentialist then it is very unlikely theistic belief could be something they can accept as true.
In terms of accepting the possibility, for some non theists I don't think it's about thinking he/she knows everything there is to know. I think it's about believing that unless there is evidence either way anything we say is merely speculation, and is therefore irrelevant to the business of getting on with life and dealing with the things we are (reasonably) sure of.
Don't fall into the trap of making generalisations about non theists as if there is only one kind. That's as untrue as the belief that all theists are the same. There are bigoted non theists just as there are bigoted theists. There are sensible non theists as well as sensible theists. For the most part it's the difference in approach to accumulating knowledge that separates the two. That's a disagreement between two philosophical positions, but it's fundamental to the way some people live their lives.
No, they're implying that there is no evidence or proof that a "spirit world" exists.
The lack of logical abilities in religious people on these threads never ceases to amaze me.....
Having spent most of my life dealing with spirits one side of the fence or the other, I can tell you categorically that the spirit world exists and is in fact much more 'real' than this mirage we live in.
Just curious......are you taking any meds? Because what you are shoveling is just sad.
Honestly, I agree with you there. You need to use some tact when conversing with people who are not apt to believe in it. "Proof (for me)" WILL NOT WORK.
Yes, and in fact believers imply they know absolutely all there is to know based on their scriptures. Their first failure is their mistake to assume their scriptures are correct when compared with other sriptures.
Of course, we haven't learned all there is to learn, that will take time. But, it would be folly on our part to make assertions for the supernatural simply because we don't have the answers readily available.
The rational or open mind will entertain any and all possibilities. Accepting those possibilities is another story altogether. An open mind will not accept the supernatural. Big difference.
The mind of child believes that which cannot be perceived are real. An adult grows out of those childish beliefs.
One would not be telling the truth if they claimed to "know" god.
Amen Brother! People need to say "I don't know" a lot more than preach to you on one side or the other of the argument. Any sane person has to say I DONT KNOW FOR SURE.
you two are going straight to hell!!!
((make sure u wait for me before the fun starts!))
That just about sums up the intelligence that is shown here by the self same unbelievers.
This sort of thing belongs to 8 yr old kids.
As a dyslexic atheist I agree There Is No Dog!
I tried to commit suicide once but I kept jumping Behind the train!
Are you arguing that agnosticism is the only valid theological viewpoint since no one can know everything? Is that your pro-religion argument?
Good point, but no I am not arguing that. An agnstic says "there may or may not be a God. I don't know." Therefore he is not dismissing the existence of God as impossible. He has an open mind.
Believing in God used to require a great leap of faith for me. I did not "believe everything I was told" as an earlier post suggested. But as I've gotten a little older, and hopefully a little wiser, I've come to understand that the most real things of all are things which cannot be perceived with the physical senses. Now God's existence is not a matter of faith, it's a matter of knowing.
So - are you open to the suggestion that perhaps you are mistaken and under a delusion of some kind?
How do you get shut down with your faithful belief on the second page of the thread? You can't answer a simple question? Who is the limited mind? You fear to think or answer a question in fear of your belief. Don't use logic, God might get angry with you.
HA! I didn't get shut down, friend... just had to go have a life for a while. To answer the question... I'm open to any suggestion...make your case.
As I read many of these posts, it strikes me as ironic that so many people can demonstate such rank hostility towards something they believe "does not exist". Personally, I don't believe atheism exists. I have no hostility toward atheism, because it is only a word... nothing more. I can't see atheism. Nor can I smell it, hear it, taste it, or feel it. Therefore, it does not exist.
You refuse to accept the thought that there could be no God because it challenges your faith and belief. This is not a logical belief when you are scared to think about something.
Just another religionist. Sorry Marine. He is closed to anything other than he has the answer. And they wonder why they are despised? LOL
It is because they are incapable of thought, and wish to inflict that on all others. Fortunately - they are poorly educated, incapable of argument and will be gone soon.
Not soon enough but still....
Oddly Ironic that they are unable to understand the hostility they create when they claim to have the easy answer, and refuse to engage in conversation. And the obvious lies in starting threads like this with a thinly disguised agenda. And it is apparent that their ridiculous, pathetic god does not actually exist.
He is just here for a fight - the same as all the pother religionists.
Wow! That's civil... Anyway... Answer this question. How is it ridiculous and pathetic to believe in a creator, but perfectly logical to believe that the whole universe spontaneously come into existence from absolute nothingness?
Sorry that other people do not believe the same rubbish you KNOW to be true.
You must be very angry to need to lie about it.
Civil? Oh - you mean like avoiding any and all questions to push what you KNOW?
Look whose talking. What a sad little man, you must be so angry to continue to regurgitate Dawkins, as "original" thought . Keep going it’s funny! I’m sorry your irrational faith in atheism is misplaced. Remember keep to your creed, avoid questions, pass the buck, sarcasm lots of sarcasm. btw You the church 50 hail Dawkins.
I am very, very sorry your beliefs have been proven garbage. You are another angry one. I don't blame you. Perhaps if you questioned evolution it might make you feel better?
Seeing as jesus has failed to come back.
Angry - yes. I would be too.........
What question was that again? How old was noah?
What a sad little man, you must be so angry to continue to regurgitate Dawkins, as "original" thought . Keep going it’s funny! I’m sorry your irrational faith in atheism is misplaced. Remember keep to your creed, avoid questions, pass the buck, sarcasm lots of sarcasm. btw You owe the church 50 hail Dawkins.
2 Peter 3:2-4 (King James Version)
2That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
Hey, that's you Mark, so God knew of your arrogance and ignorance all that while ago!
How about that? People will scoff when you tell them that god did it and dinosaurs are really giant cud chewing rabbits.
Prophecy right there that is
Must have taken a god-like genius to work that out.
More lies and delusion Mark, you just cannot help it, you are compulsive and wrong, mixing my replies to you and your fellow travellers trick questions, validly answered and not refuted by BIG EGO MARK except with puff and wind laced with LOLOLO and stupid smiley faces.... if you can't answer, please don't just make any more of a fool of yourself
There is nothing more arrogant than your belief that promises rewards and favoritism for believing as absolute.
...and why are you defending MK?
Your problem is with God, not those who believe His word to be truth and follow His commands, God made the statement, it's not my problem if it burns unbelievers to read scripture that hits the spot despite having been written centuries ago.
lol I read your belief book once and understand it better than you do. You were busy reading the inside while I read the inside and the outside. You are still in the inside.
Hey Marine, it doesn't do any good to read it, over and over again. It's out of context and 99% is useless. It's been out of context for centuries.
That's where all the excellent interpretations come in.
I thought if something is logical, it shouldn't need interpretations. lol
That's because there was no nothingness and no creator. Just show one of something that is created - just ONE.
The universe is eternal as PROVEN with the help of your friends: thetruthhurts2009 and William Lane Craig. See page 5 of this thread. You people are so out to lunch that you don't even realize that the cause/effect argument is for an eternal universe. Priceless!
lets rephrase that question, why don't you create something physical, out of nothing?
....and YOU were created, from building blocks supplied by God because all your daddy and mammy did was take their part, they and no other human being has any idea how to create a child from nothing, ONLY God can do that.
1O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me.
2Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
3Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
4For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
5Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
6Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
7Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
13For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
15My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
17How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!
18If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.
19Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.
20For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.
21Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
22I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
23Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
24And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.
BTW, you forgot to answer my refutal about Christ hating Christians... guess you had no answer after spreading the lie and then being proven wrong?
(lets rephrase that question, why don't you create something physical, out of nothing?)
Nothing can be created from nothing as it violates the Law of Identity. Read the PROOF that your fundie cohorts, including William Lane Craig, have inadvertently produced showing that the universe is eternal and NOT created.
Read and comprehend some English before rubbing your tush and replying with your heart.
You claim to have a logical mind when you have a belief that contradicts logic?
Marine, just because YOU can't see the logic in our belief, does not mean it's not there, it just means you can't see it.
I spent 41 years suffering the same fault in my spiritual vision before it got repaired.
Your belief contradicts logic. If it had logic, the logical and the faithful would believe, not just the faithful.
Is it your logic to kill people when you get angry? God killed when he was angry. Run circles to get out of that.
?...... Strange reply, it's perfectly logical to me to understand that this world is just a mirage and that the REAL action all takes place in the spiritual world which most folk cannot see, so don't believe exists.
God does not kill on a whim, because He gets annoyed, in the old covenant where he destroyed people, whole tribes, cities, nations, and yes He did do that, but it was always after many warnings and attempts to correct the error that caused their destruction.
Today God has been warning mankind for 2000 years to change their ways, and mankind has been getting worse and worse, so yes God will destroy the whole thing again, one last time.
But in the scheme of things (with a spiritual context) it's the right thing to do, because humanity has become a stinking mess of sin and it's getting worse.
Guess you won't like that either!
lol I like how you state everything as absolute truth because it's what your bible says. I'm sorry it's too complicated for your limited mind to understand every individual has a different truth. Your belief is not the right and only belief. Sorry you can't accept this. You are not the favored one.
Marine, you can believe whatever you like, that's the great thing about Gods word, if you don't like it, just ignore it, but the whole thing about belief is that we believe what we personally have decide is truth, nobody wants to believe a lie.
So I have explored life for about 47 years and been through most belief and non belief systems and found Christ and the bible to be true.
Now if I had ANY doubt about that, I should get back to searching again, after all I searched for 30 years all over the world before I came to faith in Christ, so why stay in one belief for 16 years unless I was 1000% sure it was correct?
"you state everything as absolute truth because it's what your bible says"
That's also wrong, I state it as the absolute truth not because the bible says it is, but because unlike many posting here I have examined both sides of the fence and proven (to myself) that what the bible states is truth.
The logical truth is usually in the middle. Not on a specific side. You are dependent on a side.
I am dependent upon a God who has proven Himself to me many many times since I surrendered my rebellion against Him.
How can I believe more in a lack of belief, than I do in a personage that I know well and meet with every day, who guides my steps, who deals with my enemies, and who has proven His love for me so much over the years?
I don't know if you can believe more in a lack of belief or not. Is it logical that a belief should be limited to a book? I never said it couldn't be logical to believe in a creation, I said the bible isn't logical.
...and I said that I (and a couple of billion others) do find it logical, so why are we discussing something that we cannot agree about?
There is NO absolute truth. I have proven it. And you already know that because I have crucified Plantinga and Bogle on the same cross - and right in front of your eyes!
Is that absolutely true? No. It's a self defending statement.
Sure, here we go again with your nonsense. If you don't know what predicates are in English grammar, no wonder you believe in a god!
Why don't you try refuting my proof? You know where it is. I didn't see a single fundamentalist posting anything about this absolute truth garbage in my hub. They are all pooing their pants out of fear of having an intellectual confrontation with me.
Are you SCARED? Is there FEAR in your soul?
Bogle and Plantinga are TERRIFIED of me!
You know, I find this particular statement and question, pretty irrelevant, because the reality of the situation is that there people sitting in front of their computers.....making statements like this.
I mean come on.....what kind of fear could be generated? Like, really, do you think those who are believers are going to remain and battle? What kind of thinking is that?
And, to top it off....you're trying to goat them into an intellectual battle with you? Now- that's is TOO FUNNY!
Not only is it funny, it's stupid funny. Everybody and their brother keeps yapping about absolute truth, yet nobody, and I mean nobody, has proven a single example of absolute truth.
Do you know why?
Because 'absolute truth = God = RELATIVE TRUTH'
If you can't prove one, you can't prove the other
What proof? Show me proof. Is evolution true? Prove it!
The cat's been out of the bag a looooooooong time ago. Did you just wake up? The proof is in my hub. Go chew on that and then rip me to shreds why don't ya.
Oh, and invite all your fundie friends to tear me to pieces. It will be fun.
Man, you got a lot of blind faith.
What evidence suggests that mutation and natural selection changes have no limits?
Why have new body plans not developed since the Cambrian explosion?
http://hubpages.com/hub/Atheism-is-Inte … -Dont-Jump
Actually his statement is a lie.
There is NO absolute truth. It a lie. Truth is evidence. Evidence is facts linking to the truth, through deductive reasoning, and rationale. Truth is an absolute in and of itself.
Just simply because it's part of our objective reality. And, NO reality is not different from person to person. Reality exists free of independent thoughts, desires, will, or wishes. Everything is knowable. That doesn't mean we know everything, because there is always something that is unknown. Hence, science discoveries change our objective reality when made. Hence, Medical science develops new medicine, cures become a reality.
The truth is that every person has the same reality and therefore has the same truth. One only has to accept truth for what it is and move on.
The bible- has not factual truth in it. End of story.
No, just the end of your story, you simply cannot see what 2.5 billion other people can see... I'd say you are the one chasing rainbows...
2.5 Billion people , most of them poor and ignorant with no hope in this life. Easy pickins.
Does that make their opinion worth less than your opinion then?
Oh how wrong we can be, rich folk rarely know anything about truth... most would not even recognise it!
Tell that to Bill Gates, Donald Trump, Paul Getty ......
The difference is that I am not poor or desperate enough to hold on to any fairy story that offers hope in another life. Understandable, but sad that many people have nothing else.
So that does make their opinion worth less than your opinion then?
Having the ability to decide whether you believe in God or not is dependent upon being rich and comfortable is it?
Surely if your lack of belief was superior you would be out there in all those poor peoples areas showing them the positive effects of non belief?
Maybe even being a missionary for nothingness?
Your words, not mine...
2.5 Billion people , most of them poor and ignorant with no hope in this life. Easy pickins.
Just because you have 2.5 billion other fools to go along aside you doesn't change the FACTS of the reality.
God doesn't exist.
Your groupies of religious occult can have their say and even feel justified in doing it.
But, every single time that one of you people(religious fanatics), rant.....remember- I know what you are - and come around the forums, claiming truth.
You're sad. And, it shows you really don't understand a damn word the pathetic book you read from.
So, please.......you live in a mystical belief of an entity that doesn't exist. The fact that you spent so much time unbelieved or whatnot, and then found God- is really sad, that you couldn't do it on your own. You had to accept help from something that doesn't exist.
I'm seriously hoping you would seek help tho.
Where are these facts you speak of? Show them, when you look in the mirror you see a creation with morals and a conscience not a reformed ape.
Cags, I care not one jot what you think or say, you are an irrelevance.
(There is NO absolute truth. It a lie. Truth is evidence. Evidence is facts linking to the truth, through deductive reasoning, and rationale. Truth is an absolute in and of itself.)
You are not making sense here Cagsil.
Lies told in court are evidence. People lie in court every day and that is evidence. So how can only truth be evidence? That is contradictory. Evidence doesn't necessarily have anything to do with truth. Truth is proven!
If you are under the impression that truth is absolute, then go read my hub on Absolute Truth and please feel free to refute my proof by showing just 1 example of a proven absolute truth.
Poor professor Bogle. I'm sure he probably appreciates you dragging his name all over the forums (and fyi, I seriously doubt, even though you have an obsession with him apparently, that anyone else here even knows who you are talking about).
I personally think you should tangle with Spinoza over absolute truth. Oh, that's right! You aren't a REAL philosopher, just somebody (ahem) who like to post zany, nutty attacks on people over the internet.
Pastor Bogle has been hung to dry along with Pastor Plantinga. They have tons of extremist fundamentalist ideas, but no proof.
But I see your obsession with me is everlasting - just as I predicted in my last post to you. Here's a tip for you: I am NOT interested in you! Get it? You said you'd stop posting to me but you haven't. If there truly is a God, you would have stopped already
Why would I be interested in somebody who is...uh, well...as you are? You've got to be kidding. Or fooling yourself more likely. Sick. But I find posting peoples' names over and over like this and what you did in another thread nothing short of bizarre.
And Spinoza clearly would chew your trash up for breakfast and spit it out. But then you are not familiar with his proof of the absolute, are you? Tool and fraud.
I told you I'm not interested in you. Why is that so hard to understand? Enough already! Please God, knock some sense into this lonely woman! Good, I'm glad you like Spinoza. Go harass and move in with him. I don't want you! Get it?
P.S. Spinoza did not prove anything absolute! Nice try tho
You are a complete joke hiding behind some avatar and attacking people over and over.
Clearly you are not familiar with what I'm talking about concerning Spinoza...if you even know who that is. But hey, that's cool, as you figure no one else here is familiar either. Except maybe for the other person to po you enough that you post 'quotes' by them (taken out of context and adjusted for your benefit) on your profile.
Sure, the one making the claim for God always wins. And wins without proof too. Now that's something magical!
Not magical, just Godly, God always wins in the end and why not, He wrote the script and we are merely players!
Script? You're life wasn't planned. No one's life is planned. It happens as each individual thought and action occurs.
What planet do you live on again?
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
I always find it amazing that God wrote these answers to people 2000 years before they even asked the question!
I find it amazing you actually think that the garbage you just laid out actually has meaning?
You really aren't too bright. I already know the 'bible' has no factual truth in it. So, you using scripture isn't going to help your cause.
But, nice try.
Like I said, your opinion is irrelevant and scripture will answer your every question whether you like it or not.
DUH! It's suppose to have all the answers----too good to be true.
I would've thought you figured that out. But, instead, you come in here and ranting, telling all of Us, that it is factual truth. When it's obviously a lie.
Damn man, you got to get some better lines that this. The stuff your peddling isn't being bought. Regardless of what you say.
Keep on praying and biding your time, until your dead. When you die long before I do, you won't be any the wiser.
Enjoy. You believe a lie. Your belief is founded on a lie. Since you perpetuate it as truth, that makes you what? Exactly, I'll let you figure it out on your own.
Give you a chance to use your mind for once.
You are presuming I will die before you? how foolish...
Luke 12:19-21 (King James Version)
19And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
20But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?
21So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.
Like I said, God had you sussed before you were even born...
In every end, yours, mine, even Cag's and fatfist, God wins over all of them in the end, because He's God.
You can't prove or disprove that until you die, but when we do, we find out.... GOD WON.
As I'm not playing that game....
If God wins over you all the time, why do you live? Where's the excitment of life ?
That's a foul play
I pass, as always !
I'm with you Tantrum.....no game here. Life very real.
Plenty of excitement just watching His plans come to fruition, checking off His prophesies being fulfilled, seeing silly men believe that they are 'doing their own thing' when in reality they are puppets being worked by Satan.... yep, it's quite exciting seeing the world come to an end!
The Hell it is !
I'd love to see your surprised faces when there's no God to turn to !
But tantrum, if there IS no God to turn to, we won't look surprised will we, use the logic God gave you!
What if you die before god doesn't arrive? Logic that one.
Whenever I die, I either meet God, or there is nothing to meet because you were right and all I am is worm fodder.
Either way I am content, especially as MY personal experience and evidence shows me that God does exist and I do have a relationship with Him.
Don't try to fool me, sir !
Maybe you wouldn't look surprised, but I'm sure you would look lost !
Did I say I was logic ?
But, Are you ?
Tantrum, I won't 'look' anything, if I have been wrong these last 16 years and the personality I meet with daily, who guides my life and protects my family, is actually non existent... well then I would just be as dead as you will be.
It surprises me that people think (or don't think) that such complex things as we humans just happened along, that there is nothing else superior to us in the whole universe, that our lives are inconsequential and that when we die that's it.... strange for such intelligent folk.
Intelligent folks use their intelligence instead of their idealism as you do.
your ideal God doesn't exist. The proof is this real world,without God or Gods to protect us.
where are they ?
Can't see them anywhere!
That's because he is busy finding a religionist's car keys instead of feeding the poor!
Do you feed the poor?
Do you clothe the naked?
Do you comfort the lonely?
It's those intelligent comments and smiley faces again, time for me to go to bed, you guys carry on mocking and laughing....
See you tomorrow no doubt!
Which one was that, I thought I had you all buttoned up!
So you can't see, so what? it does not affect Gods existence nor His ability to intervene where He is required to do so.
What is the problem with you all, nobody who believes is concerned whether you can see, prove, argue against or whatever concerning God, it's simply not relevant to people who have a relationship with God.
You may as well try to persuade believers that their parents never existed.
didn't know God impregnates women
Is he a parent ?
lol, you are right. Faithful will believe only what they want to believe without the use of logic.
How more logical can you get than believing in someone who you meet daily and who guards and guides.... you know the rest!
It would be illogical to disbelieve in that person....
How logical can you be to claim you meet the holy spirit and have cookies, milk, and conversate with each other on a daily basis? Is Elvis there as well?
Come along and find out, all you need to do is declare to God that you give Him the authority in your life to make Himself known to you, no fingers crossed, Marines honour and all that, then wait and see what happens.... if He is not there, you have nothing to lose.
It took me 18 months to realise that God was actually taking authority in my life and things were changing for the better, so don't expect microwave faith...
It took you 18 months to realize that God was actually taking authority in your life?
The only thing in your life that happened, was that you figured out an easier way to to live your life. And, obviously, it opened you up to spreading the false message of religion to others.
How kind of God? to impose you and his will on our lives. Again, you're sad, you're no better than the pathetic pope. And, yes, this time I am not capitalizing it, because it has no more meaning than your belief.
lol Submit my mind to a bible that contradicts an individual mind and life along with all logic. I'll pass. lol Instead of diagnosing me, diagnose yourself on why you are so dependent to be part of a group belief. Possibly because it makes you feel better when more people share your belief as it gives you confidence your belief is right. The mobb isn't always right. You submitted to the mobb. The bible doesn't require an individual mind.
I did NOT say submit your mind to the bible, I said submit to God, the God you say does not exist, so if that is so, give Him the AUTHORITY to enter your life and make Himself known to you.
How much of a hero do you need to be to submit to a God you say does not exist...?
Where's the danger in that?
(listen.... I hear demons quaking in you!)
lol You make no sense. You say you believe the bibles version of God, then you say you don't have to submit to the bible. So you don't submit to the bible god?
Confusion reigns, but that's normal when the devil gets rattled....
I'm saying that YOU don't need to submit to the bible in order to INVITE GOD to make Himself known to you.
IF you then find God clearly exists (because you decide that He has made Himself known to you) then you can choose what to do next:
Pretend He never contacted you.
Accept that God exists and do nothing about that.
Accept that God exists and ask Him what to do next.
I guess there are other options also, but the main point is, would you be willing to GIVE GOD the authority to contact you directly and show Himself to you?
You can decide about the bible when and if you find out that God exists.
Tell him about the dinosaurs,Daddy - That should clear all this confusion up.
Satan prolly didn't know about the dinos huh? Made thu evurlushun stuff up coz he dint no about the dinos being on the Ark.
Mark, I think you have slipped into your Evo persona with this reply, you definitely sound like when you were pretending not to be you, and the bad grammar is identical to Evos mumblings... did you just get tired of having a spilt personality or did you therapist warn you that it's not very sane to do what you were doing... of did HubPages finally decide that ghosting was wrong...
In any case, if you have nothing intelligent to say, why bother?
Perhaps you are confusing personality with mental disorder seeing how either one is so far removed from the dogmatic borishness you are so used to?
Probably best to ignore the point I made in favor of a personal attack then?
Good for you. Well done.
Look he's playing human again come say the line "I'm sorry your......."
Point Mark, what point, all I saw was a few senseless mutterings;
"Satan prolly didn't know about the dinos huh? Made thu evurlushun stuff up coz he dint no about the dinos being on the Ark"........hardly counts as intelligent points to be answered nor even considered coherent.
I posted biblical evidence that God told mankind that the earth was round centuries before scientists confirmed the same thing. In the history of mankind 12 men in the USA have seen our earth from space, and guess what, it looks like a great big circle...
You chose to try and ridicule the scripture describing what sounds very much like any dinosaur concept presented by scientists... these are your problems, not mine.
And my observations about your split personality (You were after all pretending to be Evo something for a while)were just that... observations.
I have no need to attack you personally and that is not my intention, I would be happy to have a sane and rational, well written and grammatical response to any of the scriptures I have posted pointing out your errors.
Unfortunately you seem incapable of advancing beyond bad spelling, inane comments and stupid smiley faces to illustrate you posts.
Oh - in that case.
You have repeatedly stated that the bible mentions dinosaurs and used this "scripture" to justify your contention that dinosaurs waked the earth at the same time as men.
This makes everything else you say totally worthless. Especially when you quote scripture you do not understand.
Sorry - you do not have any authority. Neither does your ridiculous book.
I hope that is more clear.
Well more coherent and it expresses your opinion well, unfortunately your opinion is just that, you are entitled to hold it, as I am entitled to hold my opinions.
Pity you resorted to a snide little dig with no merit for your last sentence.
Apologies, penultimate sentence;
"Sorry - you do not have any authority. Neither does your ridiculous book."
Opinion. no basis in fact, and worthless!
Oh - you mean you did not understand when I played with the vocab and grammar to pretend I was only 8 years old?
And now I have spelled it out for you I am having a dig.
And no - it is not a matter of opinion. Sorry you do not understand why that is the case. Doesn't really change the fact that all the rest of your "scripture" is totally worthless and without authority.
Now lets address the fact that for hundreds of years - men though the earth was flat - because the bible called it a "circle" - not "round" not "spherical" not "shaped like an orange."
A two dimensional shape.
Is it intelligent to make comments about the devil getting rattled because someone doesn't share your irrational belief?
You know, it isn't any fun repeating myself, but you continue.
You are FULL of it. And, I've about had my fill. First off, since I can obviously see- what no one wants to say? or it's either they are just too kind..I am not sure....
But, you my evil sir- are not helping society, you are simply confused, because you rather run away from your own life, then embrace....we get it.
But, for you to go anywhere and spread LIES...Yes, they are lies. About the "Bible", because for a great many years now- the bible was proven wrong and not of factual truth.
Yet, YOU are here perpetuating as fact. Hence, making YOU out to be a ?
I rest my case. Go and crawl back under the rock you came out from under. You're no different than the POPE, everything he speaks is a lie too. You people are sad.
Insanity has but one condition above any other; a delusion is so because the holder of untrue, illogical beliefs is in no way capable of seeing reason outside his own reality. The connection of thought intertwined and locked shut by fantasy and self centred interest in one end goal, protection of the ego and the object of its fear, the possibility of chance, the opportunity of opportunity, the true nature of self, master of itself. The insane do not know of their insanity, such is the nature of the beast.
Man, even you will be dead before the world comes to an end.
You'll never see it happen.
Nope. My only claim is that you 'argue' like a crackpot, therefore (and somebody help me here if this logic is not correct...for I could be wrong, indeed), you must be a crackpot troll.
And I guarantee I'd pick a good looking person around my age to 'be obsessed with.' You don't qualify. Nice enhanced projecting quotes (psych 101) now posted on your, quote, quote, 'profile' though. Maybe I should e-mail your true obsession, too, concerning certain searches.
Wow, that's great reason to believe something. Get tired of searching for an individual truth and believe and give in to a deception to govern a one conscience belief. Thats what your belief book is, a government. It governs you through your conscience. What is government? Government is opposite of freedom and "free will". It is logical to say your bible is contradiction to a free mind because it is a governed belief.
Here is a question for you speedy, why should any belief be absolute and unchanging when new things are learned everyday?
As I recall, YOU were the one who "threw the first punch".
I, for one did NOT come for a fight, but to share, which you DESPISE.
there's things in the Bible that you know, through science, are simply not possible:
the virgin birth
a race of giants (including the giant David slew), some who had sex with women
global catastrophic flooding
a human (Sarah) being turned into a pillar of salt)
rivers turning to blood
spontaneous healing of afflictions such as blindness and leprosy
there's tons more...
It's funny -- in my own dalliance with evangelicalism I can remember being told distinctly that all that mattered was my position on, and relationship with, Jesus Christ; the rest really didn't matter, because Jesus ushered in a New Age, anyway, and was the fulfillment of the all Scriptures that came before Him (and so on).
So, which is it? Maybe these people here are idolaters: putting a false god before the real one; that false god being the Bible.
I'm sure the giant race would be exploited for porn should it still exist today...
I didn't know about the woman being turned into salt, but the rest I recognise, and they all seem pretty stupid. Unless God was an ace chemist who converted someone into salt, which could be possible to an extent? My chemistry is not as in tune as my Biology XD
On that note, I found an interesting theory for the river turning to blood, red algal bloom containing neurotoxins. I don't know the details, so I won't pretend to know more than I do, but it's certainly plausible, especially with organic runoff from the Egyptians farming methods etc.
Really? There was no global flood?, you need a science lesson too, and a history lesson, All ancient cultures have a flood legend which you can conclude arose from an actual event. If all the layers we see are billions of years old why are there no erosion marks? Giant my dear existed look into Smithsoniangate who deliberately kept the discovery of giants bones for out of the museum to further the evolutionary lie. The rest are miracles, and only to you do they seem impossible, but how else do you explain away the proof(in the bible and out) of the resurrection?
How does the fact that there was a global flood (let's say there was, for the sake of argument) tell you anything about whether or not people should consider the notion that Jesus is an entity/spirit (or some other, better word) that exists right now, and can be experienced. I mean, isn't that what Christians are most concerned about. Who cares if there were giants. What has it got to do with the price of fish!!! (Oh, I guess a giant flood might affect the price of fish, that's true)
CONGRATULATIONS! YOUR ARGUMENT IS USELESS!
Ok so maybe there has been catastrophic flooding... Let's say that for the sake of argument there was a global flood to the extent of the bible (which there wasn't).
Ok now we are on our knees, one point may be about to slip away... But wait! Let's think, Noah put two of every animal on a boat?! Well the boat would have to be the size of a medium sized country at least, not possible to make back then. Then how would the animals gain sustenance and not kill each other? Oh and if that's true, how can there be creatures that only live a day or two? Surely they would be extinct? Oh and how did the water become so high it covered ALL land by a distance? Because you know there isn't enough water on earth for that
I put this together for people just like you, enjoy.
http://hubpages.com/hub/Noahs-Ark-Missi … complished
hehehe -- isn't that guy from the British version of The Office in the movie of that?
those are the same people who believe that man kept dinosaurs as pets and the grand canyon was formed in a matter of weeks when the flood waters receded. oy.
and now, Robin Williams' Immaculate Conception
something tells me it is going to get very ugly in this forum. maybe this would be a good time to go sort laundry or something
You know, you're right you should credit the timegod and ask them we didn't they let it rain while all those layers were being formed. If you have a counter point please share.
erosion of that magnitude happened in weeks?
(insert head-banging bunny here)
What erosion? There are none betwwen the layers that's my point Yeeesh! You know nothing of science.
Everyone here should type out their credentials to comment on evolutionary biology, paleontology, and geology. The ones without any should then be asked to leave (of course then I'd have to leave...)
um, i'm not a geologist and don't profess to be, but i know enough to know that if all that water came crashing through to form the canyon, all of that earth that it carved out had to go somewhere, in which case there would be a giant mountain where the colorado river meets the sea of cortes (in the mouth, the gulf of california), right?
i just wonder can you ever argue your point without insukting someone?
Think about a a water dam and I think that answers your point.
Insulting, I seen you do and say much worse. Things that will would make me blush.
you have me confused with someone else. i am very careful about what i say and keep my arguments focused on the topic not the person.
Nope it was you, and now that I think about I have to end our exchange. Goodbye.
haha...you accused me of that before, which was unsupported with any "evidence", and you also accused a sweet dear hubber who would never say anything negative about or to anyone of the same thing, and he called you on it too. i won't mention his name, out of respect.
Really? Do you want to go there, you could drop it and save face.
by all means, please do post these derogatory, inflammatory posts i allegedly made towards you or other individuals. i have absolutely nothing to hide.
You were wrong here and you stated
"a liar AND a hypocrite.
how DO you sleep at night?
have fun living your unauthentic bleak little life"
The person you slandered is a friend of mine on here and I'll keep the ID silent, but you said some pretty untrue and hateful, things here in this thread AND you lied.
Moving on to the man you speak of he insulted me in several other times before I reacted(what I did was still wrong)
He stated "what are you going to do call God on me. You need to be ridiculed your statements are grossly ridiculous and absurd at best. Your posts are filled paranoia, and fantasy, you've obviously lost your grip with reality and sanity, and need to accept some truth yourself. There's nothing to your claims but the inane ramblings of a crazy person"
After running into the forum you're speaking of I lost my temper and apologized. I'm not perfect I make mistakes on the regular, I acknowledge them and apologize, I and don't deny them later to appear self righteous. I’m NOT.
Come on now. How could anyone wearing a hood like that insult anyone?
you know what kills me about so many christians? they cannot argue their point without attacking the person making the counterpoint. when you make a point that is obviously accurate and for which they can't think of a reasonable reply, they begin to attack you personally, and shift the focus from the topic at hand to their nonsensical, inflammatory commentary, which is uncool and which shows the world the true definition of the word "hypocrite".
i retract nothing i have said and spiderpam and i already dealt with this matter quite publicly and it was resolved and yet here you are TTH, dredging up something just to support your own sad position because your arguments cannot stand on their own merit.
now why don't you just run along and read your bible. there's a good lad.
You must think Christians try to straighten up their lives to merit God's presence, but that's not the case. The church is a hospital for sinners, not a coutryclub for saints. Only if you have no standard could you not be a hypocrite. I'm hypocrite, broken and have many flaws, but it's Jesus that gives me life. btw what counter point are you talking about.
You know what bother me about atheist that. You all have the same motto “There is No God and I hate Him“. You go on and on about OT verses and called them evil, but if there is no God, whose to say what is evil it's all subjective. You have borrow Christians attributes to refute them you have to sit in God's lap to slap Him. It’s madness.
That's silly. There is almost universal agreement about a lot of things that are evil: genocide is evil; dictatorships are evil; child abuse is evil; lying to an entire nation and sending them to a bogus war is evil; rape is evil; flying planes into buildings is evil. Who would disagree with this?
Serial killers, rapist, dictactors, the people committing genocide, Evil cannot exist on its own. There is an objective law, there must be a lawgiver.
Why not? If there is no objective moral standards(and there are) Who could logical put anyone in prison. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soVQrBelj_s
No, I mean why does there have to be a lawgiver? Why couldn't it simply be "in our nature" to find these things evil?
alas, this question has been asked here many times before (myself included), to no avail.
fasten your seatbelt, it's going to be a bumpy night!
What is nature? In nature they eat they their young, and kill without conscience and commit heinous action and in humans society he find wrong. We have a conscience, if evolution were true animals would be aware of wrong doing as well, but they are not unless beaten into submission. Evolution cannot account for morals. There is a transcendent law above our heads
Ok. So I used the wrong word. I'll rephrase. Why couldn't human beings not "automatically" recognize the evils we just listed, as evil"? The same way a baby "automatically" smiles at its mother? The same way a mother "automatically" tends to her baby. The same way men "automatically" like boobs...
And I'm not talking about evolution; I realize evolution is controversial. So I'm sticking to the here-and-now. The fact is there are lots of things we "automatically" do, so why can't "recognizing some things as evil" be one of them?
"automatically?" means nothing it's like saying by chance. If I toss a coin and you there a 50/50 change it will land heads. what does the do? Nothing What makes it land heads? Your thumb, the force you put into the flip, the wind around the coin all these things contribute, what makes a man know killing and beastiality is wrong? There is a objective standard which we look to whether we like or not. It is was automatic it would be universal throughout, BUT we as humans are a special creation. Praise God.
What? Yes there are objective standards that (mostly) all of us recognize. So you don't want to use the word "automatically"? OK, no problem. How about, simply, to quote you: "There are objective standards" and (most all of us) know what they are. Period. I mean, why is up up and down down. They just are. Some things just ARE.
you're talking about spiderpam, who sent me unsolicited emails which were highly improper and personal attacks besides, especially about my son. i did not "slander" her, she stated that i sent her nasty emails, which was definitely not true. initially, she sent me one email with links to religious sites and i didn't know her at the time, and i replied with something general like thanks very much. ONCE. then, out of the blue, she sent me the emails that were "not so nice", which were personal in nature and which i did not respond to.
as far as your other comment re: the man, i have no idea what you are talking about there and i am not going to comment on it.
you got anything else?
I don't care what she did, that wasn't the argument you said you don't get personal and you obviously do. From what I saw you first stated that teaching her child bible and creation is child abuse and that’s what started her responds with you have no basis for morality which for an atheists is true(unless you take the moral atheist stance which is inconsistent).
what is this about, really?
why are you bringing up all of this now?
what is your intent?
do you want to have the last word, is that it?
you can have the last word, i don't mind.
you can say whatever you want about me, but it is not going to affect me. i have stated my position and explained myself quite adequately, and i am done doing that. i am not going to attempt to justify something that needs no justification, nor am i going to rise to your bait.
you managed to shift the focus off of yourself and onto another hubber, so i guess you can call your night's work a success. good for you - i am proud of you! i hope you feel better now.
*pats you on the head*
"In the early twenty-first century there was a theological debate about rocks. One side thought you went to hell depending what you believed about them. The other didn't"
Odd - I am seeing this a lot from religionists lately.
When some one points out a flaw - they immediately accuse the other person of doing the same thing - even if it is not true.
As though this makes it OK.
It is OK that the catholic church covered up child abuse. Because Pol Pot was an atheist.
How do you know that through science?
The fact that science is limited to natural laws makes no difference to God who is NOT subject to natural laws.
The problem (which will never go away) is that science keeps changing its parameters as new science discovers new things that disprove what they were certain about yesterday....
If you cannot believe in miracles, so be it, you cannot experience any in all probability, and you limit yourself to earth bound natural laws.
But it does not have to be that way, and most disciples of Christ will have experienced Christ still healing the sick, and setting the captives free.
The bible lives for believers, it does not for non believers.
Neither 'side' can prove they are right, so why argue?
Why is Christ such a threat to non believers? - why don't non believers simply ignore we believers and get on with their lives?
Not going to happen Daddy.
Keep your ridiculous beliefs in your head where they belong and we are good to go.
You asked - I answered. Sorry you do not like the answer.
Stop spreading the Word and I will stop telling you how ridiculous it is.
Actually I'll do as I please, you can be as stupid as you like, it matters not, so I guess we will continue treading on each others toes for a while longer.
What did you ask for if you did not want an answer? But - I see I am stupid now. Witty repartee it ain't.
I guess don't follow then, unless, perhaps, an open mind is possible. Atheism isn't about believing you know everything. Nor is it about having a shut mind. It is about a simple lack of belief.
There's nothing inherently "closed minded" about atheism, at least no more than being a baseline Christian. Both have the same evidence and have come to different conclusions. I have not met a single non-believer who would dismiss God if given scientific proof of it.
Most atheists are firm believers in science. Any scientist will tell you that one of the main tenants of the profession is an understanding that we know less about the universe than we think we do. That does not mean believing in everything, but it is certainly far from "close minded."
As someone who values, studies, and participated in science I don't think I've ever met a single non believer who would refute God given the proper evidence. Some, I think, would probably feel relieved. You can't reasonably expect people with different value structures to suddenly place an emphasis on "faith" and gut instinct, and it certainly isn't a reflection on anyone's belief that they "know everything."
That's not strictly true. Atheism is more intricate than that. It falls into two categories, implicit and explicit atheism.
Implicit atheism can be characterised as a lack of theistic belief. Explicit atheism is sub-categorised into weak and strong atheism. The former is refraining from theistic belief, but not denying the possibility of deities. The latter is holding the belief that deities do not exist. Technically this would be better described as anti-theism, but it's commonly called atheism also.
(((leaning back...sipping drinks....with Denno, T & Misha in HELL...watching this thread...while 8 year olds play nearby....such joy!)))
Ooo just had a thought, would a virgin birth not be possible nowadays? Strange to think eh?
parthenogenesis has been observed in nature.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 … 1021a.html
I know everything, I just can't figure it out yet. It's right there in front of us all, within us all. Wish I was a physic exert. I make a mathematical formula for ya. All is matter, plus or minus 2 tants and divided by three Knowles times the 10th power of gentry.
No living human could possibly know everything about everything..it is impossible.
We all learn something new every day about something.
I want to meet this person who knows every bit of information about every single subject there could possibly be..when you find them I will be glad to give them my address, but if they know everything, they already know who I am and how to find me and where I will be at the moment they are found...
Why do unbelievers need to know everything? I thought they only needed to "know" Christ (I mean, of course, from the Christian perspective). Why does it matter what else they do or do not "know."
It does not matter because no human could ever "know" everything..
I believe in God and Mother Earth working as one....only a spiritual being could possibly "know" everything..
Well yeah, but that doesn't mean there is one.
It also does not matter because a God that condemned people for what they believed about rocks and monkeys would be a bit of a loon
Also thought you guys should see this shirt I bought to celebrate this discussion XD
http://www.zazzle.com/carbo_diem_fsm_ts … 4175885438
This thread just ain't as good without Mark showing people up, I'm outta here (For the time being)
animals kill to survive.
i have seen plenty of people raised in secular homes who are very moral, and people raised in religious homes who are very immoral. the ability to distinguish right from wrong comes from your conscience, not from a holy book. even a two-year-old knows it's wrong to hit another little kid or take their toy away without asking.
i'm going to have some soup, play with my bunny then write another hub. good luck out there!
There was a movie about that too: Glenn Close -- also ghastly (Glenn Close I mean, not the movie)
Honestly I do not believe that either side knows
everything and if they believe they do then they are politically incorrect. There is not a single person that walks this earth that knows it all.
Nope afraid not...no body knows everything. We have to learn as we go and make our own choices of what we believe or don't believe. It isn't up to ANYONE to force what they believe on others. We make mistakes and we learn from them as well, our knowledge about life growing.
come on buddy, nobody knows everything.
but you try to imply nonbelievers say they do. They don't. And believers don't either...
But nonbelievers know one thing. that 'idea' you call God, is only an idea in your head, and not in reality.
you don't have to be omniscient to know that one simple thing.
You are naughty , it isn't an idea and I am certainly a realist, however you believe in what you believe and I believe in mine so we should not be mudslinging again because there will not be any end.
The Light shines in the darkness
and the darkness cannot comprehend it.
Do you think your dark bold quotes and close up picture make you look more like the prophet you think you are?
Do you think your truth is the absolute truth?
Because I am a liar by nature...I do not accept the term "your truth"
I have none.
You said you believed the bible before, now you say you have no truth. Did it change?
I do not know your truth Derek...
you asked me "Do you think your truth is the absolute truth?"
and so I gave you an answer...."your truth" does not exist in my vocabulary.
You are a liar by nature. Hmmm....that defies your nature. So, you are here to play games, more than anything else.
Why am I not surprised.
i can pop that zit on your nose if you like. lol jk i had to you set me up so well
noone knows everything .its imposable.but a everything bagel with cream cheese that everything i know to be delicious
I don't know everything. But then, I'm not an unbeliever. However, I don't believe in Jehovah of the Old and New Testaments.
No tantrum we believers only know what God has told us in his word, only God knows EVERYTHING.
I do not understand how anyone who reads the bible could believe the entities spoken of are gods? One helpful hippie maybe but the rest of it is all about how this benevolent god is gonna rip you a new A hole!
Chance would be a fine thing.... don't think for one minute I exclude false churches that fleece the people from my statement, getting rich means you make someone else poorer, unless you are the government in which case you let the Fed print a few more billion and make EVERYONE else poorer except the bankers... (rhyming slang)
every dog has his day huh
even the rich dog gets a bite on the ass
"Spinoza’s deliberate use of a traditional theological vocabulary for the transmission of a new set of concepts and his substitution of the signification of this traditional vocabulary by these new concepts, can be judged, according to Walther, a cause of the semantic revolution that took place in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries and finally would effectuate the destruction of the metaphysics underlying this theological vocabulary and in the case of Spinoza of all metaphysics."
I doubt that will make sense to you aquasilver and I doubt my attempt to simplify reality for you as follows will make sense either, to paraphrase the above;
Spinoza is not a believer, never was. Try think of it this way, (to use a concept of your creation, try opening your spiritual eyes) Spinoza, in a vain attempt to reason with the unreasonable, accepted the fact his audience was of closed mind. Not only a philosopher but a poet but much misunderstood, his faith in the faithful, similarly misinformed.
Has it ever occurred to you that believers are 'of closed mind' because they are 100% certain that God exists and that those who do not believe are seriously disadvantaged.
They are certain of Gods existence because they meet with Him and as stated, He guides and guards their lives... now it's obvious that you cannot understand that and that it means nothing to you, as your quote on Spinoza means little to me.
Spinoza was entitled to his opinion, you are to yours, believers are to theirs.
What's the problem, I'm not trying to convert you to anything, you can believe or not believe, but I will not sit here and see people attack my Lord and just let them spread lies and propaganda as they see fit.
Your lord is a big enough boy to stand up for himself in front of anyone. "He" doesn't need you to stick up for him - unless he's just an imaginary being in your mind.
There is one thing that is certain though. He is TERRIFIED of me!
Tantrum, I won't 'look' anything, if I have been wrong these last 16 years and the personality I meet with daily, who guides my life and protects my family, is actually non existent... well then I would just be as dead as you will be.
It surprises me that people think (or don't think) that such complex things as we humans just happened along, that there is nothing else superior to us in the whole universe, that our lives are inconsequential and that when we die that's it.... strange for such intelligent folk.
Such complex things....
is not your god theory rather more complex than humans, a creator with no creator...
just, happened along?
Logic is more superior.
Too late, whatever.... (standard good night reply)
As we are made in His image I would imagine that God has both sexes present in His personality, but as there is no sex in Heaven, as we know it, sexuality will be a moot point.
aquasilver, I think you are relying on your belief, and the results of that belief are positive in your view so you defend them. I think that if you believe the tooth fairy is behind it all you would get the same good result.
I am the author of no truth...so I cannot say "my truth"
So, you do or don't believe the bible as truth? "Drumroll"
I believe the truth when I find it...wherever I find it...same as anyone who looks for the truth...cymbal crash!!!
The truth comes from no man...men are liars.
And men wrote the bible. When did you change your mind that the bible was divine truth?
Men write plenty of things...if it is truth...it still did not originate with them...truth originates with no man...divine truth is just that...divine, unadulterated, pure truth...not concocted by men.
Science works in this way, religion too. Logical fallacy of affirming the consequence:
Theory P predicts that we will observe Q.
Experimental observation shows Q.
Therefore theory P is true.
Just because a theory works, it doesn't mean it is ever certain. It can only be accurate only on a number of decimal places. Surprise! No one knows everything.
However being an unbeliever (of anything, question everything) lets you be free of hindrances like fundamentalism. It lets you think more. If new evidences are presented then you should/could re-evaluate your beliefs.
Have an open-mind and humility, these traits lack, although not all, in both atheists and religionists. Both asserts belief in no-god and "there is god" and sticks with it and does not bother to look even more. An atheist haven't experienced god and does not bother to look. A religious person with full faith in whatever scriptures also does not bother to look.
Main Entry: fun·da·men·tal·ism
1 a often capitalized : a movement in 20th century Protestantism emphasizing the literally interpreted Bible as fundamental to Christian life and teaching b : the beliefs of this movement c : adherence to such beliefs
2 : a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles <Islamic fundamentalism> <political fundamentalism>
— fun·da·men·tal·ist \-tə-list\ noun
— fundamentalist or fun·da·men·tal·is·tic \-ˌmen-tə-ˈlis-tik\ adjective
"interpreted Bible as fundamental to Christian life"....YES
"a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles"
Hmmm... now the second definition seems to fit just as well to non believers as they explain all the various rules of non belief we believers need to keep to in order to answer your inane queries...
Yes I'm a fundamentalist, yes I'm brain washed, because my brain DID need washing from all the accumulated junk and nonsense that 30 years of serious thinking and exploration had filled it up with.
When you guys make accusations (another of the names of Satan; the accuser) when you do your masters bidding, practise first in front of the mirror...
So -how come lying by omission is OK with Jesus? Your definition says:
"literally interpreted Bible as fundamental to Christian life"
yet you then pretend it says:
"interpreted Bible as fundamental to Christian life"
which says something completely different by omitting one word.
You are just persuading us that Christians are liars. Why do you do that all the time? I am already convinced. Do you like my new forum signature?
I am not anti-Christian.
I just don't like lies.
Sorry I do not like lies.
You must be very angry.
And yet you say you are not anti-Christian?
Sorry you did not understand.
I can see why you are angry. I would be if I were you.
I am not anti-Christian.
I just don't like lies.
first time i've heard that brainwashing is good. well that's fine, if it works for you keep it to yourself.
accuse? accuse of what? from that statement, i think it is you who's doing the accusing.
I disagree. Most non believers here seem to have good bible knowledge. Religionists are only allowed to see what there god tells them to!
yes, in that way, they are too dependent on god and fundamentalism got into their heads.
Morning Ernest...."Religionists are only allowed to see what there god tells them to!"
1. Who does the allowing if our God does not exist?
2. Why did my God tell me to read the Quran, The God Delusion, and may other 'non Christian' books if He was censoring my reading material and thoughts?
You've made the statements, now answer my queries, I'm interested to know who (in your atheist world of nothingness) is commanding my thoughts and actions?
is it just me or is there a small sect of threaders here causing most of the problems, for religionists and non-religionists alike. I am getting sick and tired of the fraud. If you want to take high moral ground, stand your ground. If you admit fault, do not then expect people to forget if you then go about the same behaviour. Apologies mean nothing if you don't change and if you act so proud but have no integrity, no tricks will help you save face.
This is a general message and not directed personally, I know it should be obvious to most people and there are some I have in mind but it is a general worry and not to me, it is getting out of hand.
P.S. That was not a surrender note, I am not vacating on the account of a few pests.
if you genuinely are interested in my opinion, you can email me.
We do not know all we need to know, I'm a believer in God and exercise my faith but I also know and believe I do not know absolutely everything, The Bible does not have everything in it- I always thought of it to be on the 'need to know' basis.
Many scientists are avid believers in God and I do not believe all of them are out to disprove or prove his existence they just want to know more about our world, our universe ad I'm good with that
Anyone that tells you they know everything, religious or otherwise, most likely knows nothing.
if i were God, i would make sure to have my word (the Bible) written in such a way that there would be absolutely no room for doubt or questioning, as i would want to be understood by every man on Earth (and other planets in the billions of galaxies out there). even Harry Potter had books with moving pictures in them, so i would make the bible with moving pictures (and sound, even), so that people would know it was made by a god. it would also glow with a golden light and i would divinely transport one copy on every doorstep in the world, in every language, depending on where i was leaving it. i would also, since i know the past, present and future, mention things that exist now like space shuttles and cell phones, for example...i would explain them in words anyone could understand but also use correct terminology and be very specific. for example: "in the future, Man will build flying ships that will take him to the stars, these ships will be called space shuttles" or, Man will be able to talk to his fellow men anywhere in the world on vessels called cell phones", that sort of thing.
also, those commandments would include "honor thy children" and "thou shalt protect thy child first and foremost and not harm them". that always killed me that God thought it so important for man to honor his father and his mother but left the kids out of the equation.
i bet if the bible was like that, more people would believe it.
Not looking to get into a war or anything by any means.
You mentioned about the Bible not adressing protecting children. I do know of one verse which I do not recall where, but it says basically it is better to be cast into the sea with brick shoes than to be a stumbling block to a child.
Not arguing or trying to change anyone's belief, but wanted to share what I remember.
Personally, I consider that to be a strong indication of God's position on harming a child.
Have a good one, Holly
And his daughters raped him while he was drunk. eww.
WOW! That was amazing... I simple mentioned a verse I remembered and somehow I am underfire for whatever else.
It's not YOU under-fire. It's the actions stipulated in the bible. What she said...was correct according to the bible.
His daughters had sex with him when he was drunk. That's all Sandra was pointing out.
That is fine and well, but it was not being debated. All I did was respond to something another hubber wrote - and viola - I am faced with that? Seemy point?
I know.....bunches of people STEP on other people's conversations....that's difficult to stop. Sorry.
"Truly you are a God who hides himself, O God and Savior of Israel."
Error again, please get your facts right.
It would be nice for YOU to get your facts straight.
Oh sorry, he raped his own daughters. My mistake. eww.
hey agua, what's this 'error again' anyway?
I don't get it. Don't Bible-literalists have consciences? Why don't they just do like the rest of us and follow that? Or... believe these things, but not worry about whether the rest of us will or not BECAUSE IT DOESN'T MATTER (though it is fun though, as someone above pointed out )
Wrong, you are thinking about Lot and his daughters.
They wanted to keep the family going because their mother was dead.
Error, Abraham did not kill his own son, he killed a ram that God supplied, Abraham was prepared to sacrifice his son, just as God did later, and it was a pictogram of what God knew would happen, including the sacrificial ram provided (representing Christ).
At least get it right before you attempt to slander God.
Do you think a creator of all would need you to stick up for him to protect your own faith?
I didn't slander god. God doesn't exist.
It would be nice, if YOU yourself knew what you were talking about, and since we know that you don't.....he happens to be correct.
Hey man, take it as symbolic; I assure you, you'll get much more mileage around here (and across the whole cross-section of American/North American/Western society) if you do -- as a symbol it is very powerful: as a metaphor, you know. Taken literally it, well, sucks, to be frank... barbaric, in fact (though I guess, perhaps, it is a matter of opinion, I concede)
(And do you eat pigs: you didn't answer?)
Who is it you are addressing here?
I eat pigs
And The Books? I can see the metaphors... no problem there. I just find it highly amusing when chumps cannot see it that way.
No he did not....read the passage.
What difference does that make if he didn't get to actually kill his son? If God had not given him something else to kill; that schizophrenic would have killed his child. God aint talkin to the likes of me, you, Abraham or anybody else. When you do start having conversations with God; get yourself some help.
Plus he (likely) didn't exist (Abraham, I mean)...
Or course he did. The Bible is also very good history book for those that are able to separate truth from fiction.
that would be the Book of Luke, and it was Jesus who was telling people not to cause seekers to stumble. he was talking about those who were just starting out in the faith, and he referred to them as "little ones", which was a metaphor for new followers. the actual verse is as follows:
He said to the disciples, It is impossible that no stumbling blocks should come, but woe to him through whom they do come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones." (Luke 17:1-2)
i'm not offended by your comment at all. i appreciate your being respectful, and i hope that i am to you in kind. best regards.
Thank you Cosette for pointing out the specifics I only offered what I remebered trying to help. Thank you for realizing my intent. Take care, Holly
one thing i have learned about the religion forum - you gots to walk softly and carry a big stick
Wow. I've been snowed in for two days (ok, well I was at a bar till early Sunday morning for part of that time...), and you guys *still* haven't decided if unbelievers know everything or not???
Who was that -- Teddy Roosevelt? Didn't he ride into battle on horseback, so maybe not the best authority on tackling artillery...
"Most people are bothered by those passages of Scripture they do not understand,
but the passages that bother me are those I do understand."
— Mark Twain
you know what i feel so sorry for so many of you that frequent these religious forums and wish with all my heart that you had better things to do with your time
so what am i doing here i wonder myself
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