"The genocide in Bosnia was about Christian serbs murdering, raping and pillaging muslims. I don't know the death toll. I would say countless lives were lost."
The muslims in Bosnia and the surrounding countries have been killing non-believers for centuries, and that is the least of their atrocities. That conflict had been going on since Islam began its march into those lands. In WWI Muslims commited genocide on a mass level which far exceeds the one your speaking of..
And that is just the current history of the conflict. You can look around the world and find that Islam has been, and is still slaughtering non-believers. To state that Bosnia began and ended there, is absurd.
Islam in its movements throughout the Baltics and Mediterainian countries, was and still is by the sword. Go read your history.
It doesn't bother me what Molosivich did to attemt to stop the spread of Islam and their continuous rampage. He may have handled it alot differently than I would hav.
But then again. I have not grow up with those around me being brutalized and murdered, raped and beheaded by Islamists, or having your holy places desecrated and sharia implimented all across what was once your homoelands, for centuries.
So find go another example.
One that was not a defensive action, (And created American style, and used by a president to cover his own illegal actions and lewd conduct.), as defensive action against Islam. Like the one above, and the Crusades, for that matter.
Mason...don't begin to talk about things that I know you don't understand....
WWI??? The Armenian Genocide......you would love to make that a "Muslim vs. Christian" event.....
But it wasn't....
You are walking into my field of expertise....
For you this is like walking into a mine field without a chart....
Don't be so foolish........
The more you write the more ridiculous you seem..
Why can't you be more productive??
You said, "Show me the fanatical Christians killing thousands today? I have asked repeatedly and have recieved NO answer,"
and I told you what happened in Bosnia, proving you were wrong. Even when you get facts, you can't live with them because apparently you need to be right at all costs.
No point in going further here, because apparently you're willing to argue with rocks and shadows as well.
Lebanon -- never heard the phrase "Christian militia"?
True. I also pointed to our foolish invasion of Iraq which resulted in the deaths of an estimated 100.000 Iraqis. I acknowledge that this was not exactly an example of havoc caused by "fanatical Christians" because, although the invaders were Christian, the motive had nothing to do with Christianity. Anyway, it's not accurate, as was pointed our wrt Bosnia, that you received NO response.
The U.S.A. Is not committing Genocide in any counrtry in the world, nor in any conflict.
Now I know what I am dealing with here mike. hahahaha you a riot.
And the Phillipines are under assault by Abu Sayef, Al'quaida, you need to figire out who is where. We are not slaughtering people in that nation nor any other.lolololololo
An no Tantrum, just replying.
I simply wait a day or two, then check back in and laugh at all the comedy I see you all trying to pass of as knowlede and understanding.lololoololololo
And enslaving peoples lil children is great.
Because you educate them. hahahahahaha
That is the height of absurdity.
So if I enslave your child to my beliefs and as my slave, and educate him. That makes it all right, and a great thing.
That is the logic you use. duhlolololololollololooll
What of the American genocide against the Filipino people after gaining control of the islands from Spain?
What of the atrocities of Spain against the Filipinos?
How did Roman Catholocism end up in those islands anyway??
How come so many Filipino's have Spanish surnames?
As in Mexico, Cuba, Argentina, and elsewhere touched by Spain, the colonized had to accept Roman Catholocism...and had to be baptized...
On Baptism, they would receive a new name....a Spanish name....and this legacy continues...
Cultural Genocide....and then of course there was the actual genocide that came later...
Look up the Encomienda.....
I have a question. Don't start calling me a hater for asking this.
Why is that the countries that are at war with each other and others are all over 90% Muslim?
Afghanistan 28,072,000 99.7
Algeria 34,199,000 98.0
Azerbaijan 8,765,000 99.2
Comoros 664,000 98.3
Djibouti 838,000 96.9
Egypt 78,513,000 94.6
Gambia 1,625,000 95
Iran 73,777,000 99.4
Iraq 30,428,000 99
Jordan 6,202,000 98.2
Kosovo 1,999,000 89.6
Kuwait 2,824,000 95
Libya 6,203,000 96.6
Maldives 304,000 98.4
Morocco 31,993,000 99
Niger 15,075,000 98.6
Pakistan 174,082,000 96.3
Saudi Arabia 24,949,000 97
Senegal 12,028,000 96.0
Somalia 8,995,000 98.5
Syria 20,196,000 92.2
Tunisia 10,216,000 99.5
Turkey 73,619,000 98
Turkmenistan 4,757,000 93.1
Uzbekistan 26,469,000 96.3
Western Sahara 510,000 99.4
Yemen 23,363,000 99.1
Middle East-North Africa 315,322,000 91.2
How many of them are at war? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_conflicts, and with who and for what reasons?
Your question is legitimate, but certainly not all of these conflicts are about religion. Europe decided finally, after centuries of virtually unbroke warring, that it had better get its act together or end up a wasteland, in the late 1940s (and American money had a lot to do with the fact they didn't slide back into war in fact).
But a poll prior to 1950 would have shown lots of conflict between these "Christian" nations.
Jews only count for a miniscule percentage of the world's population.
Hindus have been at war several times since India's independence (sometime Muslims were aggressors, sometimes Muslims were victims and Hindus were aggressors), and Buddhists... well, Tibet has been in a conflict for several decades, China is no saint, and the less said about Japan's war record the better.
In other words, one reason for these stats is simply that there so many of them, and that they are so spread out!
Morocco is not in a religious war - they are fighting separatists.
In Syria and Lebanon, there are as many Christians involved as there are Muslims, and it is not at all clear who the aggessor is.
Turkey is also fighting separatists.
In other words, some of these conflicts are about religion, some of them are about politics (and often involve atheistic Marxists, in fact), in some it is not clear whether Muslims are aggressors or victims, in some it is about poverty and resources, and some of these listed are not in conflicts at all, to the best of my knowledge.
So, to answer your question, sometimes it is Islam that foments the conflict, sometimes it is other things. Go figure.
Why don't you look at a few things:
1) How did those countries become countries? By whose hands?
2) What natural resources are in those nations, and who is procuring them?
3) What monies are entering those states, and who is supplying them?
-Again, Islam is not one thing, just like Christianity and Judaism are not singular concepts....there are economic factors that people like to ignore because religion is too easy to use to stigmatize the minds of others....
Apparently God's. Seriously though, I looked into it and this is what I found.
How did Iraq become a country...When it broke away at the fall of the Ottoman Empire.
The Ottoman Empire was an Islamic successor to the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire but lost some of its territory to the Selujak Turks a Sunni Muslim dynasty that ruled parts of Central Asia and the Middle East from the 11th to 14th centuries. They set up an empire, the Great Seljuq Empire, which at its height stretched from Anatolia through Persia and which was the target of the First Crusade. (wiki) The First Crusade was part of the Christian response to the Islamic conquests.
The Muslim Conquest: ( I will copy and paste from Wiki in the order it goes by starting here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_conquests.
Byzantine–Arab Wars: 634–750
Wars were between the Byzantine Empire and at first the Rashidun and then the Umayyad caliphates and resulted in the conquest of the Greater Syria, Egypt, North Africa and Armenia (Byzantine Armenia and Sassanid Armenia).
The conquest of Persia, 633 -footnote-(The Sassanid Empire or Sasanian Empire, known to its inhabitants as Ērānshahr, was the last pre-Islamic Persian Empire, ruled by the Sasanian Dynasty from 224 to 651. The Sassanid Empire was recognized as one of the two main powers in Western Asia and Europe alongside the Roman Empire and later the Byzantine Empire for a period of more than 400 years.
The Sassanian Empire was first invaded by the Muslims in present day Iraq in 633 under general Khalid ibn Walid, which resulted in the Muslim conquest of Iraq.
The Muslim conquest of Syria occurred in the first half of the 7th century, and refers to the region known as the Bilad al-Sham, the Levant, or Greater Syria. Arab Muslim forces had appeared on the southern borders even before the death of the Islamic Prophet Muhammad in 632, resulting in the Battle of Mu'tah in 629, but the real invasion began in 634 under his successors, the Rashidun Caliphs Abu Bakr and Umar ibn Khattab, with Khalid ibn al-Walid as their most important military leader.
The Arab conquest of Armenia was a part of the Muslim conquests after the death of Muhammad in AD 632. Persian Armenia had fallen to the Byzantine Empire shortly before, in AD 629, and was conquered in the Rashidun Caliphate by AD 645.
At the commencement of the Muslim conquest of Egypt, Egypt was part of the Byzantine Empire with its capital in Constantinople. However, it had been occupied just a decade before by the Persian Empire under Khosrau II (616 to 629 AD). Emperor Heraclius re-captured Egypt after series of brilliant campaigns against the Sassanid Persians, only to once again lose it to the Rashidun army ten years later. Before the Muslim invasion of Egypt began, the Byzantine Empire had already lost the Levant and its Arab ally, the Ghassanid Kingdom, to the Muslims. This all left the Byzantine Empire dangerously exposed and vulnerable to the invaders.
The Umayyad conquest of North Africa continued the century of rapid Arab Muslim expansion following the death of Muhammad in 632 CE. By 640 the Arabs controlled Mesopotamia, had invaded Armenia, and were concluding their conquest of Byzantine Syria. Damascus was the seat of the Umayyad caliphate. And by the end of 641 all of Egypt was in Arab hands. Then, with the destruction of the Persian army at the Battle of Nihawānd (Nehawand) in 642, the conquest of the Persian Empire was essentially finished.
Under the Umayyads
The Second Arab Siege of Constantinople (717-718) was a combined land and sea effort by the Arabs to take the capital city of the Byzantine Empire, Constantinople. The Arab ground forces, led by Maslama ibn Abdal Malik, were defeated by Constantinople's seemingly impregnable walls and Bulgarian attacks while their naval fleet was defeated by Greek Fire and the remnants of it subsequently sunk in a storm on its return home. It is often compared to the more widely studied Battle of Tours in the fact that it halted Muslim expansion into Europe from the East for almost 700 years.
The Emirs of Tbilisi ruled over the parts of today’s eastern Georgia from their base in the city of Tbilisi, from 736 to 1080 (nominally to 1122). Established by the Arabs during their invasions of Georgian lands, the emirate was an important outpost of the Muslim rule in the Caucasus until recaptured by the Georgians under King David IV in 1122. Since then, the city has been the capital of Georgia to this day.
So back to the question; they became countries? They became countries at the hands of Arab/Muslim extremist or at the request for protection from Arab/Muslim expansions... conquest.
So don't be angry with me for suggesting that the ongoing war is religious in nature.
Whose natural resources are in those countries? I assume you are referring to oil and diamonds...
Whose money is entering those states? Beats me, they are still poor... or are they? For as much money that flows into them, I do wonder where the money is going.
It's not going to the needy people in their countries that are predominately Muslim. Though I did stumble on a tidbit that might make some sense.
According to all the stuff I just read, the money is flowing from the Seljuk Turks to the Brits or vise versa, I don't know.
The First Crusade was to free the Eastern Christians (Eastern Orthodox) from Islamic rule by their request. It still looks that way today. The Extremist (Muslim Empire) wants to regain control over the Holy Land.
Some modern day Christians would call it Gog and Magog, A land and its people. At the core of the conflict, is a split between Eastern and Western culture... Muslim cultures: before and after Mohammad's death.
So don't get me wrong, I am not saying all Muslims are terrorist because Sufism is like a balanced of Judaism, Christianity and Islam ie: Eastern Orthodox. However, I am saying that AlQaeda is a run on the Muslim Empire.
Now, I want to ask. If Saudi Arabia has all the oil, then wouldn't they also have all the money too?
Counties with the most oil reserves barrels by the billions:
Saudi Arabia 261.8
One could say that the UK is doing some dirty business with all the above. America is giving all the money away (that we don't have) and not getting much in return except higher prices on everything and we aren't making anything back.
Where is the money going? That is a good question.
You are kidding right? All you needed to do was to realize that Abraham was born and raised in what is now called Iraq. That would have been enough information. You are a Christian right? That's how Iraq became a country. My god, it is written in all the history books. It was established long before the Ottoman Empire. But you go ahead with your bad self...............
Yeah.... do you know Lenanon is a modern day example of how Islam decimates a culture. At one time they, Lebanon, were known as the "Paris of the Middle-east". Today it is a war torn dump.
they allowed the supposased palistinian refugees to enter for aide and camps within their borders. Within no time the Islam's had over-turned Labanons democratic tri-cultural system to institute, Shari'a.
Now look at it.
If you want a good read about Lebanon from a first hand witness see Bridgette Gabriel's books. She tells it like it is.
Islam came in and destroyed Lebanon, raped and killed the Jews and Christians of that culture, making the Dhimmis in their own homeland.
Another shining example of Islamic love and peace. llololol
Islam brings only desolation with its embrace.
And Europeans shuld know better hen anyone what they are all about. Blind fools trapped in their lil PC worlds. Churchill would turn in his grave, and scream at you all wake up.
But that would be nothing, new. huh.
Mason...you prove to be more and more twisted all the time...
You write, but obviously know nothing....
Lebanon????? Evidently you don't know your history too well..
Supposed Palestinian refugees???
I shake my head in pity...it must be a sad existence.....
"So back to the question; they became countries? They became countries at the hands of Arab/Muslim extremist or at the request for protection from Arab/Muslim expansions... conquest."
Syria, Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Saudi Arabia....these countries have come to existence within the last 100 years...
Now, regarding past conquests....the region of the "mid east" is very turbulent....it is, after all, a major trading network, part of the larger ancient Silk Road....
Muhammad himself was of a merchant family...goods would be moved up and down the Hejaz...up to Damascus, then east and west...all over the place....
Powers fight over who controls these networks....who controls them today?
When the Romans (and Byzantines) failed to control these networks someone else claimed them...
The Crusades had more to do with reestablishing "Western" control of trade, and more specifically to do with the Roman Catholic church gaining access to Greek Orthodox Byzantiums territories.....
Pope Urban II was thinking about far more than "Christianity".....he was building an empire....of princes subserviant to his will....
The Knights Templar protected those trade networks, and grew rich...as the Ottomans grew rich from them later....
This is all....
Check it out, and move forward from there....
So I see the connection between that and everything that has happened in the last 100 years as well. Maybe you can define what you mean by 'they have come into existence within the last 100 years.
Not trying to be a smart arse but it sounds like you are saying they didn't exist before then. Are you referring to territories becoming states/countries, claiming independence?
I don't know who controls these networks (I personally don't believe it is the bank unless that bank says Bank of Arabia on it... I should actually see if there is a bank like that). But I would guess Saudi Arabia.
They have all of the above and the ability to ruin the rest of the world along with it by cutting everyone off or raising the price on oil unless you do what they say, you get screwed.
The powers created by the establishment of those lines...and the political and economic influences behind those elites.....they were not the same over the past 700 years...or the past 500 years....or even the past 100 years..
To try to look at the microscope of today compared to the telescope of millenia is of no real use in our current discussion, except to actually show that "Muslim" threats are no different from "Christian" threats or what have you....those who seek to justify land holding...those who are looking to defend their vested economic interests use whatever means necessary....
That is all there really is to be said... to pick one aggressor sect/manipulation over another is simply to join the fight, instead of trying to separate oneself...and then trying to stop the senseless, wanton violence and illwill of those who fan the false flames.....
Religious struggle, gender struggle, race struggle....national struggle...all are divisions of economic struggle...devices to further the inequality of the producers, suppliers, merchandisers, and financiers of our global elite...the Maersk, Walton, Mellon...and others..
That is the realization...I am here simply to ensure that there is some kind of balance to the likes of Mason...I have no flag to defend,and no souls to save...
I would also include the role of Britain in forming Iraq. It broke away from the Ottoman Empire, yes, but Britain laid out the boundaries of Iraq with no consideration to the ethnic or political makeup of its people. That's a big part of the problem today - Sunnis want to kill Shia, people have more loyalty to their families than to the government, etc...
In other words, colonialism is at the root of many of the wars we are seeing today.
Read more please... If you would like some sources I can give you a few....
Don't read my words with any mean spirit; I realize how hard it can be sometimes to truly understand how someone is saying something (which is vitally important to ultimate comprehension)...
Abraham wasn't at the signing of the Sykes-Picot Agreement...and was never near the division of the Middle East that occurred after World War II.
Iraq is a big place...Abram (later Abraham) came from Ur,which is a city far to the south east of what is today Iraq...a small little place....a significant place once...but one city amidst a huge geographic region...
Make no religious sect presumptions....
I thought we already got passed that. Anyways, so according to the Sykes-Picot Agreement, it is a broken agreement by the British to the Arabs?
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/ … ideosearch
So is this what he is talking about?
I am British, and I assure you that a good fifty percent of the world's problems can be sourced less to Islam than to the legacy of British domination of so much of the world. Specifically, the devious way they tended to deal with "inferior" races... if Americans don't know anything of this, they have forgotten their own historical roots...
Are you talking about why the Founding fathers left Europe?
I just mean that the British were no saints, not in America, not in India, not in Palestine, not in Africa, not in the Middle-East. Iraq itself was formed out of an oil grab on behalf of British companies by the British military/government. They had an explicit policy of "divide and conquer," which meant "see what ethnic tensions we can fire up, and then fire them up."
"So is this what he is talking about?"
Perhaps all those working with the pipelines who won't have American troops to protect them...
Look up the Sykes-Picot Agreement and others....check out and follow the leads for yourself..
Spider, I am humbly flattered.
A non-Islamic extremist from Detroit supports airport body scanners:
Privacy advocate changes stance after Flight 253
BY ELLEN CREAGER
FREE PRESS TRAVEL WRITER
Hebba Aref has always been an outspoken advocate of privacy rights and opponent of profiling.
Then she flew Dec. 25 on Northwest Flight 253 from Amsterdam, Netherlands, to Detroit and found herself six rows in front of a Muslim man who has been charged in the attempted bombing.
She plans to be sitting in the courtroom at the suspect's arraignment in Detroit on Friday.
And as a Muslim woman, she says she now believes security trumps privacy for air travel.
"I'm always standing up for rights and privacy concerns, but now I hope that body scans will be mandatory," Aref, 28, said Wednesday. "Balanced against national security, it's worth the invasion of privacy. And I acknowledge the fact that there has to be attention paid to Muslims."
Some might remember Aref, a Bloomfield Hills native who now lives in Kuwait, as one of two headscarf-wearing Michigan women who were denied seats behind then-candidate Barack Obama at a rally in Detroit in June 2008.
Then, she felt the sting of discrimination. Now, the experience aboard the plane has left her with a new appreciation for the complexity of the world -- and the perils of sizing up others.
"I would have never looked at this kid and thought he was a terrorist," she said. "He looked like a teenager."
She remembers the event in slow motion -- the loud smacking noise, the shouting, the flaring up of something red, the pandemonium, the man without any clothes below the waist being marched up the aisle, the trembling of her hand.
After the landing, she called her father on her cell phone. When she heard his voice, she cried.
Eight hours later, her father finally was able to bring her home to surprise her mother, who didn't even know she had been on the flight that day.
Friday night, she has to get back on a plane and fly back through Amsterdam to Kuwait for her job as a corporate attorney. She says she is not afraid, but her mother does not want her to go.
"I am begging her to stay," said Neveen Aref of Bloomfield Hills, who moved from Egypt to the U.S. 30 years ago. She says she feels shame that the suspect -- Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab -- is a Muslim.
"I feel bad when I go out and people look at me and think I must be like that man," she said. "This guy on the plane, he did not care. He was going to hurt my daughter, and I hate him for that. He can call it whatever he wants, but don't call it Islamic."
On Wednesday, the Council on American-Islamic Relations asked the Transportation Security Administration to clarify whether Islamic head scarves, or hijabs, will trigger new secondary screening for travelers. The request came after a woman was asked to remove her headscarf at Washington Dulles Airport.
Contact ELLEN CREAGER: 313-222-6498 or firstname.lastname@example.org
You know, we are talking about extremist. What don't you understand? Or are you suggesting that I cannot call a muslim terrorist a muslim terrorist or an Islamic extremist and islamic extremist. Or AlQaeda, muslim terrorist.
They are what they are, leaving a link called Muslim are Devils to a very nice website is just stupid.
I thought we were talking about the roots of our current war on "terror".
And I didn't see anyone say that you can't call an extremist an extremist, or a terrorist a terrorist. The problem is trying to paint all Arabs as terrorists, or all Muslims - or blaming all of this on Islam and ignoring the other roots of the problem.
Who is trying to paint all Arabs as terrorist? We are talking about the roots of our current war on terror. What is unfortunate is that a lot of it also gets has its roots in religion and no one wants to talk about that.
You know what I think is the problem? Muslims are like Jews. Ever ask a Jew what makes them Jewish?
Seriously. My x is Jewish. He is also an atheist. I asked him what made him Jewish, he said he didn't know. I assume Jewish refers to an ethnicity not a religion though Judaism is apart of being Jewish.
Now, doing the same with Muslims. I think when you say Muslim, people think Islamic. Like the women in the article snippet that Mr. Deeds left.
She said, call him Muslim, call him whatever you want but don't call him Islam.
That is not the first time I have heard this. I also heard a similar response from another hubber named EngM, a Muslim whom I had spent a lot of time talking to and I like him. He also made a distinction.
Something similar happened when I was going to the Islamic center in San Diego. I asked by those people were killing people, she said they are not Muslim.
Visiting a website looking for the differences between Islam and Muslim, it said this. Muslims practice Islam.
So sort it out for me so we can move on because I, for one, am taking this thread a seriously if some folks (not saying you even if you do bug me sometimes lol) could offer a little more to the discussion.
I think TMM's post were interesting (not hateful) I think Mikelongs post are interesting (but shows a lot of hate for TMM) I think you just want to troll because I question Obama without regard for why I am so apprehensive about his Cairo speech.
Looking into this Sykes-Picot Agreement doesn't make anything look any better.
I think the problem with TM's posts has more to do with his tone than what he writes. I mean, probably a lot of what he writes is correct. But it is not the whole story (as you seem to point out here in fact, quite well, I thought). I could just as easily go on a rant about all the mathematics and philosophy that the Muslim world has produced... it's no surprise that a civilization stretching back to the seventh century has produced a mixed bag of results. How could it be otherwise? But TM's tone is, I don't know, vitriolic.
As to Obama, frankly I think you should indeed be sniping at him, but not on this issue -- for example, name one way in which anyone on Wall Street has been punished for the crap they brought down. As someone else wrote (somewhere): THEY are the real terrorists.
We all have different issues, there are so many of them right now. The significance to the S&P agreement is that it somehow (seemingly) coincides with Obamas address to Cairo. I do wonder whose side he is on because he seems to be playing the Americans, the UK and the Middle East and I really want to understand what he is up to.
A lot of things just don't make sense to me so let me try to make sense of it along the way without this antagonizing garbage that seems to come when someone else hears something they don't like.
Personally, I don't know what your problem with me is. You just showed up one day with some sort of vendetta. I figure I am like you, just want to know what is going on.
You said that someone said the real terrorist are Wall Street. That doesn't exactly add to my approval of Obama either since he seems to want to work with them (the very same ones that everyone knows are corrupt) why?
I want to believe that Obama has some trick up his sleeve and that he is going to fix whatever is going on but it doesn't look that way.
I know it frustrates a lot of Obama supporters but it frustrates me to see them turn a blind eye and just accept what he has to say as if there are flowers growing around the world and we are just going to skip, jump and play in our new utopia.
I see a lot of blaming America and the UK and Russia and China and the Middle East. I know it isn't new but it is serious. If I tell an upset Muslim (who is angry for the same reasons) to question his government first, then I should question my own government first as well.
And just to throw it in there. I think racial profiling is a lost cause. Though they should scan everyone. I think William said on another thread or somewhere, he said...
How can Obama be Muslim, he doesn't even wear the same clothes. And I thought about it. True, Akmadinajaad wears suits too soo it was pretty pointless.
Racial profiling wont work for anything. I say scan everyone. Then some people get upset about privacy as though someone is going to show your panties off to the entire airport.
I've been a bit mean to you sometimes, but I don't have a vendetta -- in fact I have been paying you compliments of late, both on threads and on one of your hubs. The truth is that I have, over the years, had some very close friends who are Muslims, to whom I got very close, in fact. So this is my motivation, and nothing to do with you.
There's another reason too.
And that is some racial profiling of my own.
The stereotype of American Bible-beating southerners is rampant both here in Canada, and throughout my childhood in Britain (and also when I lived in Germany it was there too).
So I am doing exactly what I am getting worked up about that others (supposedly) do -- stereotyping a bunch of people I don't know at all.
This is the problem with being American -- you are so visible (especially through media), that you become the world's punching bag... because most of us have barely if ever been to America, in fact.
This happens with Muslims too (I know this, because my grandmother is constantly going on about Muslims, though she has not left her hometown in two decades). Anyway, the irony is that there is a parallel to be made there.
Anyway, even in the quote above from me, I compliment you, because I thought your comment refreshingly balanced.
Me too. I often think about it when I see them wondering if they think that I am thinking something bad of them when I am not. The 'profiling' seems to go both ways. Neither hateful yet both worried for the same reasons.
I don't know how to get around it. You saw the post from that guy who got crazy angry with TMM and used him as an excuse as to why some resort to radical Islam. It did not help the situation.
Though I think part of his aggression was because his last name is Mason. Almost as if (though unless he comes back I cannot say for sure) he singled out TMMason as a freemason and zionist.
I don't even know where 'zionist' came from but I see it a lot on some Islamic Extremist sites. So I cannot get mad at TMM for the information he used early in the thread.
I cannot get mad at anyone for the information out there. It is what it is.
I even came across a 'news' website called the European Times News and this upset a Catholic friend of mine a lot because the entire 'news' website was vindictive of Iran and America.
Some of the crap on that site said things like Iran is issuing gas mask to everyone in their country and Obama is issuing gas mask to everyone in America.
So I checked other news sites like CNN, MSNBC, and BBC etc. to see if there was any other news reporting the same thing and there wasn't.
But was it enough to make a lot of people angry? Yes! You should see some of the reports on that site. So that guy who went crazy mad at TMM and said all the sites he got his information from was crap and called him a lot of names.
Yet his information still originated from an Islamic pov. What would anyone expect from TMM. It's his religion he wants to defend and he should. Just like the innocent Muslims want to defend their religion and they should.
Both are being dragged into the the situation and it is a pretty unfair circumstance to both sides.
You brought up the British purposefully making tension between ethnic groups. It is obviously working. So as it is, I don't know how to address anything without upsetting someone else.
But thank you for not having a vendetta.
Don't get me wrong, a lot of Muslims are ill-informed too. Frankly, and this has come up before (though perhaps it wasn't with you), I feel that The US's unconditional support of Israel does a lot of damage, and I don't really know why it persists (except for my theory that it is lobbyists that are ruining America... it comes back to that, so often...).
I mean, Israel is a powerful nation that can stand on its own two feet and the US already has major allies in the Middle-East (Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia). Muslims who blame things on Zionism are confused, because, again, most of them don't understand that the Israel Lobby is not synonymous with all Jews.
In addition, I have often seen interviews with Palestinians where they say they wish other Muslims would butt out and stop using them as an excuse for other political agendas.
So, Muslims, Americans, and GASP even CANADIANS get their ideas from the media and the Internet, both of which suck as sources for info about the world... Not sure what the answer is, all the same
OK. Unfortunately I don't really understand your response. For a start, who says it was you in particular I was responding to? Are you telling me no-one in America thinks that Muslims are devils? And, given this, shouldn't I want to even things out a bit. I mean, the so-called "liberal" media absolutely love all of this al Qaeda stuff. One more way of getting people worked up.
It's the same with Christians. When did you last see a flattering portrayal of Christians in the media? Television news just wants to show you explosions and conflict... I thought I'd redress the balance a bit with one measly link
Hate for TM?
Disdain for willed ignorance....absolutely...
Let me give you a taste of what I'm dealing with, and then give me your feedback...
An uncle of mine sent a forward through email from a "prison minister" named Rick Mathes....
In his little statement he claims that a Muslim Imam and he were at a meeting in a prison with inmates and that the Muslim admitted that Islam was out to kill the "infidel"....(I'm getting a hub done on this..)
Some people in my family suffer from the ridiculous fear of Islam.....but let me get back to the point....
I researched Mr. Mathes and his claim.....
The conversation Mathes alluded to never occurred....there was no Imam...it was all a lie, according to the Prison officials who were there that day, and were sitting in on this meeting....
I will publish all of this so it can be seen and scrutinized...
My issue is this, my uncle sent out, to over 100 people, this stupid, hateful, unresearched piece of Christian braindrain propaganda...
This "minister" is a liar....a crook...what kind of money does he make from his "service"? What kind of car does he drive?
Fear-monger profiteer is all....in the guise and garments of a man of God....
That is why I am towards Mason the way I am....he and others like him..
Notice...shine a light of truth and Mason and the minions of ignorance flee....run away Monty Python and the Holy Grail style...
No hate on my part....but intolerance for the peddlars of ignorance and intolerance...
That is all.....
I'm sorry for the confusion I've caused regarding my emotions and intent....
The hub will be up today...along with the sykes-picot agreement...
No worries, at least I know where you are coming from. I will read your hub when you publish it.
I think I know exactly what email you are talking about - it made the rounds in my family a few years back. You are right - it's a crock.
And this still is going on....
Racial/Religion Hate must have very long ,powerful legs
Is it because we don't care to understand their way of life?
Is it because we have apprehended their right to speak up against the tyranny of globalization?
Is it because we started War with their country by aiding and befriending them with weapons, and then betraying them at our convenience?
Is it because Royal families there are at odds with our Royal families (Bush's, Carnegies so on and so forth)?
Is it because we represent the very evils they have sworn to protect their fellow men from? From our addiction to wasteful exploits and lack of any real traditions.
Is it because dying as a lion is better than living as a sheep?
this is not to defend their way of life or way of doing things. It is only to try and see from their point of view, which though it seems completely insane in contrast to mine, carries the same basic archetypes that put foundation beneath my beliefs.
to believe itself.
My answer is no, I am not an Islamic extremist. But born under the same conditions as one, I could easily have become one.
They are humans too.
Mmmm, still, it sounds a bit like you are lumping all Muslims together. Some (most) are normal, everyday joes, some (not many) are extremists who need a good slap. It doesn't matter what a terrorist's reasons are... terrorism is a bad thing, either way...
yeah, i agree with that. what i am saying here is that an Islamic Extremist is just a person. I would probably have done the same thing if i were in their situation. Therefore, I can't really judge them, even though the action [of killing others to meet a religious ideal] itself I find horrible. I didn't mean to come across as lumping them together though.
Do you really think you would do the same thing in their situation? I mean, take the Palestinians. Ninety-nine point nine percent of Palestinians are not terrorists, even though many of them might feel "justified" in being so. Or the relatives of the World Trade Center victims... they might feel "justified" in committing acts of terrorism, but none of them has.
I mean, those kids who perpetrated the bombings in London were not being oppressed. Yes, there is ethnic strife in the north of England where they came from, but so what. Get angry yes, throw some bottles if you want, but terrorism? No, there's really no excuse.
The other reason there is no excuse is that it does not work! The IRA fought to get the British out of Northern Ireland for thirty years, and it never happened. The PLO accomplished next-to-nothing. It's simply bad politics, as well as being unconscionable...
I am not understanding the question. Who doesn't care to understands whose way of life? Most people do care to understand other peoples way of life.
Whose right to speak up against tyranny? Who apprehended whose rights?
Please, who? I need you to be more clear.
who is they?
I would rather die of natural causes but what are you saying? Are you saying that it is better to die courageous and aggressive then it is to die meek?
I understand the complications though because there is a lack of objectiveness in some peoples heads, some will only see one way. I am glad you chose not to become an extremist.
Are you part of the Green Party?
The whole time, the article is referencing reasons why Islamic Extremists hate Americans. We being American. They/them being Islamic Extremists. In some instances, the questions don't represent just Islamic Extremists, but all oppressed people.
Some are only allowed to see it one way. We don't live with the threat of death over our heads every day like oppressed people in the Middle East where American troops are deployed, so it is easier for us to say what we believe and don't believe, while they don't have our same "freedoms".
No I am not of the Green Party.
I was merely stating that Islamic Extremists are just people like me, with very different lives.
"Whose right to speak up against tyranny? Who apprehended whose rights?"
There's an article that answers these questions floating around focusing on Nigeria...
One could ask questions, but one could also find answers before vocalizing/writing them...
And the additional article pertaining to "Christian" behavior is also out there too.....
I did and it was all good up until he decided that everything is the fault of the US. Not really impressed.
Um. LOL. Apparently you didn't. He talks about Britain. And Royal Dutch Shell. Which is a British company. And I don't see anywhere where he says it's all the fault of the US.
I'll link to them for him, they are both quite good and relevant here:
http://hubpages.com/hub/Fraud-that-Pass … y?comments
http://hubpages.com/hub/Nigeria-and-Roy … s?comments
Sandra, you are definitely a puzzlement...
"I did and it was all good up until he decided that everything is the fault of the US."
Now, I mentioned how companies who abuse the U.S. citizen (Halliburton, KBR, Shell) and their cronies (Dick Cheney amongst others) get filthy rich and use imbalance that they create, stimulate, and exacerbate to play with Americans though the media....
The hub about "Fraud" was based on a specific email that came to my father....
Now...I live in America, but I am not guilty for many things this nation does internally and externally, because it is not in my name or with my consent...
I don't know if you've ever seen true inequality....from slums packed around American factories in Mexico, to the LAPD falsely accusing and arresting a sibling, and the overall legal system that enables innocent people to get locked up....
I don't know what you've seen, but I definitely know what I have witnessed.... I have been on the testimony stand in a court of law as a defendent's lawyer(whom I am there to speak on behalf of)counsel's me against the very evidence that would set the arrested man free.....of course I didn't know until the trial was over that this was the case....when I spoke later to the parole department..
I don't know if you feel comfortable with people taking on the titles of "Reverand" spreading outright lies about others...while he collects a paycheck from money he has wrought only by fearmongering....
Is this America???
It is definitely Americans.... Not me, perhaps not yourself or others, but other Americans....
Read through the whole thing next time....do not let cognitive dissonance get in the way..
If my interpretation is wrong, let me know how and why....
All you have to do is show evidence to the contrary...
Okay. I am back from my life now.
"Mikelong... "That is the realization...I am here simply to ensure that there is some kind of balance to the likes of Mason...I have no flag to defend,and no souls to save..."
Yeah right. It seems to take quite a few of you all, (alot of ya's, actually.), to balance me. I have stood my ground against better than ya'll.
So have at it.
You guys amaze me.
I have posted facts. Islam is not the religion of peace and love you all want it to be.
You libs and apologists all spout your froth and islam itself spits it right back in your face.
Islam is Submission!
You don't get to make the rules.... Allah does. lololololoolo
Now. What info got you all bent out of shape?
All the links I post are supported with their own source materials.
But you guys don't get it.
Your not correcting me. You are attempting to correct, "ISLAM".
Good luck on that. Let me know how it goes.
Are you going to include all the hate phrases from the bible too? Seems fair!
Your still stuck on the Old Testament E. We settled that way back.
busy, but trying to catch up guys.
I have said this very same thing to him!
I don't think he gets it.
Yeah TM, two can play at your game of selective quoting. From what I can see of the bible on this site, Christianity is a very evil religion that promotes murder, slavery, and rape:
Hey, don't take my word for it, read the bible for yourself. These Christians are evil!
http://www.quransearch.com/sami_zaatri/ … limits.htm
From the mouth of Jesus himself:
"Blessed is that slave whom his master will find at work when he arrives." Matthew 24:47
But your still euqating what was, with, what is.
And even if Christians were as bad as Islam. Would that make Islam acceptable?
I don't get the rebuttle of Islamic terrorism today, with Christianity of yesterday.
Or the equating of one percieved evil, too another. And how that negates the fact that, the other is evil?
That is bad math and liberal logic.
Also. My links are from Islamic sources. I do not declare a thing for Islam. It, Islam, speaks for itself.
But most people like to hear and see what they want.
Not what is.
It is the clash of, "reality -Vs- liberalism". And it is happening everyday in this world.
And I don't select quotes man.
Please these are links to the entire words on it from Allah and momo.
I simply post the Surah, verse and Hadith about the issue.
All can read it and make up their minds.
Ohh but that is dangerous eh?
Like I have stated from the begining. Let the people read and think for themselves, and let Islam speak for itself.
Access to Info. is what I supply.
And I believe if you check the facts, Islamic nations are today, the only nations in which slavery is legal, and accepted as a holy institution.
Yup! I believe that is a fact also.
Pesky lil things they are.
I think this is the root of the problem TM.
Think about it.
That's always been the problem!
It's called S I N !
"I", being the center of everything.
And this will go forever.....
It's really funny what Hate do to some people.
I have to laugh!
I have, for a long time bro.
That is why I do what I do. Offer the info to clearify and allow all to read and assess the facts. Not one side, and not "someone's" version of Islam. But Islam as it is, as it speaks for itself.
So yes. I agree. It is, "a", problem.
THis has been pretty interesting to read as it has progessed. One question though, where does all the fingerpointing help?
I wonder if Christians and Muslims spent as much time trying to set aside differences and just live in peace as we do bickering about who is more violent, wrong, or right, how much better this world could be.
Islam simply needs to undergo an evolution to moderation. (As Christianity has.) But there is no moderate Islam in the Qu'ran, Hadith and Sunnah.
So thats presents a problem within Islam itself.
Qu'ran + Chronology + Abrogation = Martial Islam
Thats a harsh equation to over-come.
Moderates are usually forced down and killed as heretics and apostates from, "true", Islam. Martial Islam. As verses 9 and 5 over-rule all conciliatory verses regarding the non-believers.
I'd offer my solution, but it's a bit extreme and I may end up on a hit list. LOL!
Nah!! Feel free.
Can't you see how much we cherish free speech and the free and un-inhibited dissemination of knowledge.
I was hoping you would say that! First, we get all of western and eastern nations to agree to "handle" the situation togethor. Then we need to draw this big line on a map that encirlces the "middle east". Withdraw all troops and businesses from the area. That's when we say, do what you want. Whatever you want. BUT, if it spills outside of this line, be it violence, or threats, this area will be obliterated. You stay out of our business, we'll stay out of yours.
Oh boy, I can see it coming!
I think it is a fine idea.
My money is on Israel.
I don't think the others will stay out of it of course and we, America, will be forced to step in and settle it.
And there we go again.
It is okay I guess, to try it in my book.
I'm talking FINAL Ultimatum here. There is no second chances.
I'm wondering if anyone came forward to admit they were extremist Islams with hate agendas - I started reading all this thread but I couldn't understand some of it and some was just more religious bushwah - so I wonder if someone can tell me - has anyone come forward?
"I'm wondering if anyone came forward to admit they were extremist Islams with hate agendas - I started reading all this thread but I couldn't understand some of it and some was just more religious bushwah - so I wonder if someone can tell me - has anyone come forward?"
If someone was a "Muslim extremist" as you say, why would they be on hubpages waiting to answer your thread?
I've only seen one message of hate here, and it is yours.....
Mason or Mathes....it can be hard to tell one from the other...
But, when it is asked "why do you hate Americans" at least a multitude of different information has been displayed why (not all) many Americans cause hate against their countrymen...
"Hypocrisy – one of the very things Jesus Christ fought against – is the mainstay of the right wing Christian fascists and their Republican representatives. The ones that fight against gays turn out to be gay, the ones that condemn adultery are caught one by one being adulterers themselves, as the recent case of Nevada Republican Senator Ensign proved again."
Rev. Dr. Alexander Hast, June 18, 2009
and the ones who say "Islam is a violent/deceitful religion" are caught up in their own bigotry...
I have seen no credible "Islamic extremists" on this thread at all...not one serious response....
Of course, if one was such a person, I don't know why he or she would be on hubpages....
If you want to find "extremists" I believe they have their own websites that you can visit..
I can't find a single site dedicated to Islamic extremists...
I will keep looking, but take a look at the face, one of the faces, of Christian terror/extremism.....
Now, if you go to that site...kkk.com, you will hear a message of "love"...you will see words like "nonviolence" but we all know who the KKK is....
Submission to Islam doesn't have to come at the end of a gun. The reality of what is going on is very scary so stop insisting that Christians had anything to do with this.
You can visit this site too...
The inner workings of Islam is incredibly deceptive. Even another Muslims refusal to submit to Islamic law is enough to make them inferior to Islamic Extremist.
It obvious with the Green Movement and they are being killed nonetheless.
I know very well what dhimmi means, my family lived with that status.....and lived very well..
My Christian family, living under Muslim rule as dhimmi were wealthy gold merchants, held agricultural estates, and enabled the local Turkic/Muslim government officials to send their kids to university...
When my great-grandfather joined the Committee for Union and Progress.....a Muslim/Christian/Jewish unity organization that stood together against the regime of the Sultan (not against Islam...).....
Each of them, Muslim, Christian or otherwise, were equally traitors to the Sultan.....
When the C.U.P. morphed into something quite different (the force behind the Armenian Genocide) all decent people had been purged....
Now, my great grandfather had been put on the Sultan's death list, and there were two specific times when he was arrested by Ottoman (Muslim) officials...
Each time my great-grandfather was released because he either knew the person from their days as socialists against the Sultan, or because his family had helped the family of the arresting officer....
My great-grandfather got out of the country before the genocide, but he left his entire family behind....and it was only because Turks/Muslims who were neighbors, friends, and associates that they survived....
When the raiders would come (Kurdic tribesmen were used the most in this way) to raid the towns outside of Kharput, where my family resided, Muslim neighbors hid them in their own homes...
I have done extensive research on this genocide, and when faced with the violence against Armenians (the genocide did not have to do with Armenians being Christian per se...we can discuss this further)Muslims risked their own lives to take in women and children, and to hide them....
I say women and children because the men were taken away and executed, largely, before much of a chance was offered...
This execution of men is not a Muslim or Turkish thing....but is actually a tactic widely used.....
British Christians in colonial America, knowing that a cold winter was coming, purposely gave out small-pox infected blankets to Native American peoples......and we all should have an idea of what effect that would have on a population with no immune defense to this disease.....
Its okay to do these things if you're a Christian, and those "others" aren't....at least that is how the thinking has always been when we look at the colonization of the globe by European Christians....
I just find it ongoingly amazing how none of this is paid attention to by those who continue to blame Islam itself for violence, and when Muslims are targeted for ill-will.....
If one wants to point fingers, it is important to begin with the hypocrisy closest to home.....
I already told the story about the Christians who lied and swindled me to get me to go to their Sunday service (oh...its just a conference for young people...that is all..there is no church affiliation at all....)
Yeah...I saw the "truth"......
My grandfather is a reverand....and I've listened to his "Christian" words most of my life.....
and then there is Mr. Mathes...who has already been exposed as corrupt...
and people like those within my family who pass on the lies that Mathes and his ilk create...
I don't see any of this happening on the opposite side...the "Muslim" side...where is all this hate????
I see Nigeria...and I am saddened...
I look at Iraq and Afghanistan and realize that Americans are largely blind to the harm that is being caused in their name, and with their dollars.........don't think that I have always had these views...I've been in the Marines....I used to talk about "those Muslims" and their "violent societies".....its just that I never really knew my own society that well...I was too busy looking out at the "other" guy....the "outside threat"...
I didn't know Huntington...
I didn't know about Sykes-Picot....or about how American missionaries entered Anatolia and caused dischord, disdain, and animosity amongst previously peaceful native Christian populations....the Gregorians and Greek Orthodox....
There was more to fear in the Ottoman Empire between Protestant converts and Gregorian and Greek Orthodox establishment than anything else.....I just wish people could have all the resources that I do.......
I guess I'll have to write more hubs then....
Peace to all, and I hope that someday we can reach a middle ground....where we can look at "extremists" for who they are, and not which flag they wish to justify themselves under...
They ally themselves with anything that enables power....Religion is simply a tool that can be used....any religion can be twisted in such a way.....
Islam is not to fear, nor is Christianity or Hinduism......it is rather the character types of many of their followers that has to be analyzed and questioned...
That is my perspective....
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