Are We Really Born Equal?

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   Miebakagh57posted 9 months ago

   Are we really all born equal? It's a discussion and I kinda says, a philosophical one.
   
   The world bred rich men and poor men. Rich women and poor ladies, right?
   
   Still the question subsists: are we really all born equal?
   
   The Creator God, they say created men and women. Does He really created the equal? I mean the men and the fairer sexes?
   
   Have you seen a poor man or a poor woman helping a rich man or woman? It has happened. So, are we really born equal?
   
   Does it mean we're all equal before everyone? Speak your mind.
   
   Why d' you called that lady Misssy Anny?

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      Khanmaria12posted 9 months agoin reply to this

      I don't know what you are actually asking. But I will say that in the eyes of God, all human beings are equal. There is no superiority of the rich over the poor and the white over the black

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      peterstreepposted 9 months agoin reply to this

      No we are not born equal.
      Some have black hair others blond, some have brown eyes some have green. We are all different. We are all unique physically.
      All people do have in common a lot of things though.
      But depending on the culture we express our emotions in different ways.
      Some cultures have black as a colour of mourning, some have the yellow colour or the white one. But we all mourn when a loved one passes away.
      Different cultures give us different means to express ourselves.
      Some are more open with sexuality, others more closed.
      In some cultures you touch each other a lot while talking, in others you keep a distance.
      We express ourselves differently. But we all have and experience the same emotions like fear, love, sorrow, regret, happiness, loneliness, excitement etc.
      We all have the same emotions unless you have a mental disease. (like a lack of empathy)
      But we express them differently.
      There is beauty in this difference.
      But many people think that the other is like themselves. And if they are not like themselves they are up to no good. It becomes me/us versus them(the weird ones, not us) - tribalism..
      Here starts xenophobia, racism, and sexism.

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      tsmogposted 9 months agoin reply to this

      "Are we really all born equal?"
      
      Fundamentally, no! When there is a birth that which is born is dependent on the birther, thus a dominant/submissive relationship.

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         GA Andersonposted 9 months agoin reply to this

         Was the 'birther' equal to the birthee when the birther was a birthee?
         
         Your dominant/submissive thought seems right, but, for the 'born equal' thought it applies to the relationship of the birthees. As in runt vs. alpha.
         
         GA

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            tsmogposted 9 months agoin reply to this

            Howdy, GA! Thanks for the gift of pondering a bit and a byte to pass the morning away while sipping on a cup of tea and smoking a cig or two. I know smoking was not your intent as unhealthy as that is, yet I am addicted. Sad!
            
            With the first line a good question! Relational to 'what' should be considered thus entering your second paragraph.
            
            Using biblical history Cain the firstborn had no other birthee to be compared to. At the time of Able's birth then a comparison could be made with Cain's birth for conditions. Yet, Able was a runt at birth as Cain was older. Again enters relational for what and then to what, right?
            
            I think AB made a point with her last statement. It depends on the observer to make the judgment of equality. At the time of birth, her observer is God, and all are born equal in his eyes. I would presume that is the case for parents of multiple children too. And, then, next, one could compare to one's neighbor whatever that is. 
            
            That's all I got for now.
            
            Edit: With the passing of time I pondered 'Young Sheldon'. Sheldon and Missy are twins. Sheldon was born first, thus older. Then Missy arrives. Are they equal as probably minutes separate them?
            
            Sheldon is male and Missy is female. Thus, is there equality between sexes at birth? Sheldon winds up being a genius, yet Missy has much more street smarts, however, that is not evident until years have passed.
            
            Though Sheldon's genius is not visible at birth, it exists, or does it? So, retroactively one may be able to conclude they were not equal. Also, Missy's street smarts are evident in the passing of years. And, street smarts come through experience while using a different part of the brain. Is the inequality offset, thus equal?

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               GA Andersonposted 9 months agoin reply to this

               Cain, the Bible, Young Sheldon . . .  on a Saturday morning? Damn, that's either some strong tea or strange cigarettes. Considering the 'rabbit hole' twist of your closing thought, it could be both; 'herbal' tea and wacky tobaccy.
               
               But just for kicks (it is a nice morning) . . .; Speaking in terms of species, there never has been original equality. From bacteria to beatles to bears to humans, and from the first breath drawn (or not drawn) to the first purposeful individual effort there is always a stronger and a weaker. Natural inequality comes with the first breath.
               
               Anything that says contrary speaks to some human construction, not the reality of life. No, we are not all born equal and no, all do not 'deserve' equality of life.
               
               Now, (since you started it) I'll fetch my 'tea and tobaccy.'
               
               GA

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                  tsmogposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                  ha-ha The tea is from Sweden and the manufacturer is Kobbs. Good stuff, but it is raw and not in a bag. A friend sends me a pouch every Christmas as a gift. Nice! The cigs are filtered Pall Mall shorts. So regular stuff.
                  
                  The problem for me is the cigs act as a stimulant getting the cogs going in the grey matter. The more I ponder the sooner I have the next one. That is why I don't write anymore and shy from commenting in the forums. It affects my health.
                  
                  I very much agree with what you said, except I will ponder, "all do not 'deserve' equality of life".
                  
                  I will ponder what to ponder about that while watching TV later as I watch the thermometer on the table next to my lounge chair go up and up and up so I know when I am free to turn on the A/C. $$$ Our rates doubled this year.

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                     Miebakagh57posted 9 months agoin reply to this

                     I can't understand why you guys specifically (GA and Tsmog) are using tea, cigars, as part of speech to illustrate a point here.
                     
                     That has got to do with the brain. But the brain is not a human being. It's part of the man. That illustration  to me means Biden is not equal to Trump. Though both men are Presidents.

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                        tsmogposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                        Miebakagh57 It was such a nice day today that I opened my reply to GA's comment to my post with some light casual polite conversation. GA replied in kind with casual light polite conversation. Do you have a problem with that?
                        
                        If you read the comments you would have discovered they fell in line with the OP about a human being born equal. The conversation was about being born equal. Did you miss that?

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                           GA Andersonposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                           Just for kicks, I saw this tweet about Musk's way of "pondering" and your Saturday morning 'pondering' came to mind.
                           
                           The genesis of the Cybertruck . . .
                           
                           
                           GA

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                              tsmogposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                              Thanks GA!! I got a good giggle from that. The sequence was right on. A footnote is that here in California recreational marijuana is legal. No shops in my town, but in the rural area just up the road there is one. Notice I said rural. I have on and off thought of getting some bud just to remind me what it is like to be 'stoned'. I wonder if it will improve my poetry or lead to some interesting articles to publish here. hmmm . . .
                              
                              Edit: Just for the curious.
                              
                              What Percentage of Americans Smoke Marijuana? by Gallup published on Aug 15, 2022
                              https://news.gallup.com/poll/284135/per … juana.aspx
                              
                              "Democrats (20%) are more likely than Republicans (12%) to report smoking marijuana, with independents (17%) falling between them."

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                                 GA Andersonposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                                 It's legal here in Maryland too. Even to grow — 2 plants per person.
                                 
                                 GA

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                                 Miebakagh57posted 9 months agoin reply to this

                                 You guys are jokers! Marijuana has nothing to do with my thread here.
                                 
                                 I think you're trying to invite a guy called Castlepaloma, to join the discussion!
                                 
                                 Anyway, you're welcome.

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         MizBejabbersposted 9 months agoin reply to this

         You have a good point there. I'm a WWII baby, and I doubt that the world will ever see so many birthees overcome the circumstances of their births than my generation did. At least in the rural area where I came from.

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      abwilliamsposted 9 months agoin reply to this

      The answer is complex!!
      
      Some people are born with health issues, straight out of the womb.
      Some aren't wanted when they enter into this world!
      Some enter into this world in a homeless camp or a poor village, while others are born with a silver spoon in their mouth.
      
      But, as we have seen throughout history, that poor village, that homeless camp, being unwanted...doesn't deter, nor slow some down - quite the opposite!
      
      That silver spoon can become a deterrent that the recipient may end up gagging and choking on....(Hunter Biden) Sorry...I digress.
      
      No fault of their own, but the Country one is born into; some come loaded up with personal Rights and others, not so much!!
      
      Bottom line, God sees them ALL as his children, which makes them equal.

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         tsmogposted 9 months agoin reply to this

         Agree with the last line. Well said!

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         Miebakagh57posted 9 months agoin reply to this

         Yes, the challenge is complex. But I entirely agree with your last sentence.
         
         Before God, all men (humans) are equal, no matter how much wealth one possesses.
         
         Even those that come with deformities in their bodies are equal with the healthy idiots, that don't even know their left from their right.

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         jansharesposted 9 months agoin reply to this

         Totally agree with that last line, abwilliams. And the first!

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      Kathryn L Hillposted 9 months agoin reply to this

      Equality has to do with opportunity, not outcome.
      The God given right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness is guaranteed equally to all (in the US) by proper application of justice as established by the rule of law.
      
      If one is more powerful, talented or rich, etc. than another, it is because of what he has done with his freedom, his life and his pursuit of happiness.
      
      His will:
      
      What he does with his life via his own efforts and actions is based on his self-guided free will, as given equally by nature and nature's God/(Source) to every human.
      
      The outcomes of every man's efforts are, of course, unequal. How could they be anything else?

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         Miebakagh57posted 9 months agoin reply to this

         Thank you. I've taken note of that. The challenge is widespread. So we see people on a different social scale or level in society.
         
         So, that means we're equal only on the day of birth?

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            Kathryn L Hillposted 7 months agoin reply to this

            ~ well, this might be true! and not only that: We are born, on a psychological level, perfect on the day of our birth ... and perhaps only on that day!
            Many babies are not given what they need on a psychological level after that first day.
            One would hope that maternal instincts and human /divine love would kick in.
            But, sadly, we know that appropriate mothering, (and even respect for,) is hit and miss in the human population.
            
            Beaches shut down for nursing and bonding of mother sea lions and their pups:
            
            "Tourists flock to see the sea lions at this easily accessible rookery—but they don’t always give the marine mammals the space they need. Recently, visitors have been spotted snapping photos with the sea lions, flying drones in their faces, throwing sand and even kicking them. In one instance, a pup died after being cornered by a group of people.
            
            'Members of the public have been observed trying to touch, take ‘selfies,’ and get as close to sea lions as possible, which is potentially dangerous for not only the public, but also the animals,” according to a city statement, as reported by KPBS. “Human interactions with adult sea lions and their young may result in injury to, and/or abandonment of, sea lion offspring, as well as aggressive behavior from adult sea lions.'
            
            Now, city leaders are stepping in to help keep the pinnipeds safe. On Monday, the San Diego City Council voted unanimously to close Point La Jolla and parts of nearby Boomer Beach to people and dogs for seven years, reports Ashley Mackin-Solomon for the La Jolla Light."
            
            https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne … 180982943/

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               Miebakagh57posted 7 months agoin reply to this

               Thank you. This is significant.

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      tsmogposted 9 months agoin reply to this

      I have a question some may chime in on. There is the question of being born equal at birth. That is the material life. But, I ask with Christianity with acceptance of Christ one is reborn. Isn't everyone undergoing that equal with everyone else that has also undergone that? Is the afterlife more important than that life here on earth in the physical/material sense? Which equality is most important - the material or the spiritual?

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         wildernessposted 9 months agoin reply to this

         As the afterlife, the spiritual, is imagination rather than reality we all experience then equality in the physical is more important.
         
         We can, and do, imagine and declare that all things spiritual are equal, but that is only in our imagination; we have no actual indication this is true.

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            tsmogposted 9 months agoin reply to this

            Thanks for replying. I'll ponder on that.

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            Miebakagh57posted 9 months agoin reply to this

            I agree completely.

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            abwilliamsposted 9 months agoin reply to this

            That's where faith steps in.
            
            You either accept something much larger, much grander, capable of creation...or you don't.

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         Miebakagh57posted 9 months agoin reply to this

         God aside. This is just a philosophical discussion.
         
         If we turn on the born-again experience into the discussion, how then can we accommodate Islam, Hindu, and others?
         
         So, its more important that we settle on the obvious earthly scheme.

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   AliciaCposted 9 months ago

   No, we aren’t all equal, at least during our time on Earth. For example, some of us have physical disabilities and some of us don’t. Some of us are poor and some aren’t. Some of us suffer cruel diseases during our life and some of us don’t.
   
   Our fate in life has nothing to do with a deity but depends on our background, body, and in some cases, effort. Every one of us has the potential to deal with problems successfully or if the problems can’t be solved as bravely as possible, though.

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      Miebakagh57posted 9 months agoin reply to this

      Many will not agree with your last statement. The majority of us depend on one deity or another.
      
      However, if we're not equal in economic or financial terms, that's another story.

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   AliciaCposted 9 months ago

   Perhaps I worded the first sentence of the second paragraph clumsily. I understand that praying to God can provide support. All I meant was that we need to make the practical effort ourselves.

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      Miebakagh57posted 9 months agoin reply to this

      Does that mean we can all come to an equal level? We may work to be rich. But do we really make it?

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         AliciaCposted 9 months agoin reply to this

         No. Poverty, natural disasters, and incurable disease exist in the world and may not be easy to compensate for.   
         
         The belief in a deity is decreasing in some countries. We would have to question the people to discover if they suspect that we continue to exist in some form after death.

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   Brenda Arledgeposted 9 months ago

   I guess the bottom line is that we are all equal in the eyes of God.
   
   It matters not if we are rich or poor, disabled or healthy...to him, it only matters where and how our heart feels towards each human being on this vast earth.
   
   There...we all start out equal and we let ourselves determine which direction we go.

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      Miebakagh57posted 9 months agoin reply to this

      Yes, Brenda. We may all stay before God on the same level. But where and how we end mattered. Do we end equally?

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   jansharesposted 9 months ago

   Great question and discussion, Miebakagh. I agree with everyone else, for the most part. My first thought when I read this is the children who are born in war-torn countries or stuck in abusive homes with no way out. It would be naive to think they were born equal to others. Very complex indeed.
   Depending on circumstances, some are born into situations where lack of opportunities to thrive are destined. But the optimist and Christian in me believes that in the end, equality between the haves and have nots is determined by how we treat each other. Unconditional love, respect of differences and acceptance can help decrease the divide of inequality. Is anyone with me? Or should I take off the rose-colored glasses now, lol.

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      Brenda Arledgeposted 9 months agoin reply to this

      Well Janis...
      Unconditional love is great, but very few people actually accomplish this goal...although they do often try or claim to love others in this way.
      
      I do believe in the end, it matters how we treat others.
      
      As for Miebakagh question on my reply....
      
      No...
      I don't think we end up being equal in the end.
      
      It's sad, but we have free choice and many of us follow a different path.

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         jansharesposted 9 months agoin reply to this

         +1

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      Miebakagh57posted 9 months agoin reply to this

      Jans, you're welcome.
      
      And yes, the question is complex.
      
      As for those born in war-torn zones, they're peculiar. One of my junior brothers was born during the Nigerian Civil War. If I had to compare him with another guy a neighbour, that was also born during the War, where post-war equality exists like school, and others, what makes my junior take some step above the unfortunate guy?
      
      That I'm wondering now. And why should I hid this?

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         jansharesposted 9 months agoin reply to this

         True. It is possible to step outside of situations and rise above to achieve equality if the opportunities are there.

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 9 months ago

   We are learning how to guide our free wills to our best advantage. Some are more successful than others in guiding their wills toward their hopes, dreams and ambitions.
   Some stumble and fall. Some get up. Some learn what to avoid and go on to become success stories. Some end up living their lives in jail and others will die for their drastic mistakes/crimes.
   
   It is best to find the love of your heart and live according to that love.
   Love, in the end, is what saves us: Positivity, hope and a vision of what we want/desire, based on what we truly love.

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      Kathryn L Hillposted 9 months agoin reply to this

      Diamond hearts shine with love, but charcoal hearts do not.
      Halos uplift, pitchforks do not.
      Love is the gift all can freely give and take.
      But anger, resentment, negative attitudes and grudge holding will keep a man from accepting and living according to love.
      Where is the equality?
      How can it be expected?
      Human nature reveals imperfect men.
      Human nature reveals individuals acting according to their own hearts, minds and souls. Human nature reveals reactions, responses and different levels of creativity and inventiveness.
      
      How can we expect equality in outcome?

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         Miebakagh57posted 9 months agoin reply to this

         I agree with you that love should be 'equality' That's why one can sit with God on His level.

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      jansharesposted 9 months agoin reply to this

      +1 Ultimately, love is the equalizer of all things.

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   Kenna McHughposted 9 months ago

   This is a great thread. Thank you Miebakagh57. I know a man who lives in India. As you know, India has a caste system based on incarnation. Not everyone is equal. If you are born poor, it is because of karma. You have to suffer this lifetime and hope your good deeds, suffering, or whatever rewards you in the next lifetime. You are rich for the next lifetime. The rich Indians believe these poor Indians are castoffs. Nothing can be done for them because of their karma. They've been bad, and they deserve it.
   
   Based on this theory, my friend in India, who is rich and has a father who is a professional, obviously has good karma. As a young boy, he became aware of the caste system and saw children struggling and suffering because they were born into low-income families.
   
   He felt it was unfair. He wanted to help them. Poor people deserve better. His father and mother disagreed. They said it was their destiny. Still, he felt it was unjust. So he grew up well-educated and started helping the children in the lower caste. He felt all children deserve and education, no matter their karma. Now, he has many schools in India that teach poor children. It gives them a chance, hope and a future. The government funds these schools.
   
   Needless to say, my friend has run into opposition because it goes against the status quo and rocks the boat. He has researched the caste system, and clearly, it's old-fashion based on centuries of false ideas and fraud. He uses his knowledge to confront and enlighten the opposition. He is successful, but still, much work needs to be done.

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      AliciaCposted 9 months agoin reply to this

      This is a very inspiring story, Kenna. Thank you for sharing it.

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      Brenda Arledgeposted 9 months agoin reply to this

      Very good story.  He is a strong man to go against the others beliefs and reach out to the children.
      
      Great ....this can be a story.

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      jansharesposted 9 months agoin reply to this

      Thank you for sharing this, Kenna. It's beautiful and touches on what I referred to as opportunity, how we treat each other, and love. God bless your friend.

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         Miebakagh57posted 9 months agoin reply to this

         Many will agree with this great man's deeds. His life is an example of helping the very unfortunate in society. God bless him and his works.

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   Kenna McHughposted 9 months ago

   Thank you, Linda and Brenda. Perhaps, I will write his story for HP. He's an amazing man.

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      MizBejabbersposted 9 months agoin reply to this

      I would love to read it, Kenna. I hope you do write it. This man sounds like an advanced soul.

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         Miebakagh57posted 9 months agoin reply to this

         Yes, I agree.

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   Kenna McHughposted 9 months ago

   Ahh, thank you, Jan. He is extraordinary.

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    Kenna McHughposted 9 months ago

    Miebakagh57, so true.

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    Kenna McHughposted 9 months ago

    MizBejabbers, I hope to write his story.

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    Farah N Huqposted 9 months ago

    On what basis are we judging equality here? In the eyes of God...or in the eyes of mankind?...The latter is crystal clear...The answer is NO. We have made social, racial, cultural, political, economic and religious diversities within us...and if we are different, we are not equal. Now if you are talking about equality in the eyes of God, I don't think God compares his creations. He made the ant and assigned it its task. He made humans and assigned them theirs. He would judge each of us based on our activities in this world instead of comparing an ant to a human, or one human to another human. To Him, we are individual beings and we would be judged based on our actions in the circumstances we've been put in. There is no question of comparison in this case.

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       AliciaCposted 9 months agoin reply to this

       Though I like some of your ideas, I disagree with your overall viewpoint. I don’t have the full answer, but I like the theory that everything is God and that it is up to us to make sure that the good in it predominates.
       
       I don’t believe that my pets will remain as dogs and cats once they die, though they may remember the experiences of their incarnation. Staying as pets would mean they are less capable than me for eternity, which is a horrible idea. We may have incarnated as other species ourselves.

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          wildernessposted 9 months agoin reply to this

          Just curious, but how far down the ladder would you accept that creatures will not remain less capable than you are?  Mice?  Worms?  Paramecium?  Viruses?  What about protein molecules or plants?

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             AliciaCposted 9 months agoin reply to this

             Obviously, they are less capable on Earth. We depend on an advanced nervous system to live our lives. I don’t know for sure, but I think that everything is part of God, or whatever we want to call the entity.

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                wildernessposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                Perhaps I did not understand.  I thought you indicated that you wanted to think your dog or cat, in the next reincarnation, might well be a person as capable as you.  Thus the question.
                
                Did I misunderstand?

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                   AliciaCposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                   No, you didn’t misunderstand. It’s just a theory, though. I can’t accept the traditional Christian idea.

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                      wildernessposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                      I don't accept it either.  Seems more likely to me that the 10^82 atoms of the universe make up an intelligent being than that another entity in a different universe made this one to have the people on an insignificant speck worship it.

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                         MizBejabbersposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                         I think both ideas are credible and there is no reason that they cannot exist simultaneously. I also believe that freewill plays a big role in the perception of equality.

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                      Miebakagh57posted 9 months agoin reply to this

                      What Christian idea? I think we're going somehow far with this. We're digressing.
                      
                      Bringing God into the question could be another matter, and that's not related here. But this is just a philosophical discussion. Religion will tear everyone apart.

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                      MizBejabbersposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                      Neither can I, Alicia. I have to believe that the creator (God in religious lore) is too much energy for a human body (Jesus) to contain. I believe that there are layers (dimensions) in the creation and we are all part of it, but in the dimension that we occupy.

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                         Miebakagh57posted 7 months agoin reply to this

                         Miz,I'm sorry. I don't see this your post some 7 wddks ago. Perhaps, its an ovdrsight on my part.                                            Jesus' body is not the same as mine or yourr, or any other perron. His body is uniqually sinless, or without sin. When sin touiched his body, for mankind sake, his body began to get wounds and he died, again for our sakes.                                      The point I'm try to make is this. Jesus is the word of God. And the word is God Himself.

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    ravirajan01posted 9 months ago

    I agree with Farah here. A baby born in a poor household versus a baby born in a wealthy household has the same red blood flowing in its veins. A baby born in any religion will not have any sign showcasing the same. So from God's perspective, we are born equal.
    
    However, when we come to humankind, we are divided into races, castes, social status, and whatnot. These distinctions make us unequal on this Earth, and that is a hard fact of life that cannot be changed.

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    tsmogposted 9 months ago

    Just for thought . . . For equality the bottom line is everything is energy. That is for both the material and immaterial. There is no such thing as greater than or less than in the quality of energy. Energy is always equal. Remember energy cannot be created or destroyed.

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       MizBejabbersposted 9 months agoin reply to this

       I agree. Your last two sentences say it all.

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       Miebakagh57posted 9 months agoin reply to this

       But could not some have more energy than others? Do you think your energy is equal to that of your son? Think!

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    laugherposted 7 months ago

    From a sociological standpoint, it is important that we create equality of opportunity while also taking care not to think of "opportunity" in terms of limited abilities only. In fact, ability is not the only factor we consider to deny or grant someone an opportunity. We also tend to consider a person's background and their social standing. In fact, we go so far as to conflate background and social standing with ability. At the same time, we need better indicators of merit-oriented ability. At the moment, many of these indicators still reflect majoritarian biases. Yet, we also have to think of the tensions between "equality" and "difference." Sometimes society celebrates difference, and other times it regards difference as "deviance". In general, it is more productive to avoid sweeping statements such as "we are all equal" or "we are all guilty of something." Though they might have great philosophical value, they tend to hinder sociological thinking and action.

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       Miebakagh57posted 7 months agoin reply to this

       Laughter, nowhere have  I indicated that the thread broaden or should be linked to sociological consideration.                                   The question is: are we all equal? In a philosophical context only. Input your thinkings within that context.

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          laugherposted 7 months agoin reply to this

          Yes, but just wanted to draw attention to the fact that considerations of equality cannot be non-sociological. Indeed, in this context there is little difference between a sociological and philosophical stance. However, it would be an impoverished philosophical treatment of the question if we don't consider the sociological angle (if one insists that the two are separate--and if so, that statement engenders burden of proof).

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