What do you know about Mormons?

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Timothy Donnellyposted 15 years ago
Onusonus, that's one great example. I know too that there was some other golden? plates recently made available for public viewing in Europe somewhere, of another civilization. I shall bring this forward as evidence that these things exist. GP explained why we do not have the specific plates available for display.
Also, I have on my hard disk a PPS video of the Red Sea crossing, explaining its scientific possibility with geological and archaeological evidence of the event what transpired, just as recorded in the Bible. If this can be accepted, even with the Bible, then the BoM is not really a far stretch, in MY view. I someone could wants the PPS video, they can email me and I will reply with it as an attachment.
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Any translation from the alleged artifact which verifies the Mormon story?
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  Timothy Donnellyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No, I did not suggest that, besides, I cannot read that language.
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  This from wikipedia, Tim and AA.
  
  Though the stone is sometimes cited by Latter Day Saint laypeople as evidence that supports the existence of the Nephites in Mormon archaeology, FARMS, a scholarly group associated with BYU, has no scholarship dealing with the site and does not make any evidentiary use of it, and Hugh Nibley, a professor at Brigham Young University and an apologist for the LDS Church, denounced it as a transparent fraud in an official LDS publication:[6]
  
  Much study and care went into the preparation of this "ancient Hebrew inscription" near Los Lunas, New Mexico, yet a cursory glance was enough to reveal the crisp freshness of the newly-cut letters. Numerous other flaws appeared upon closer inspection. To anyone not determined to accept this inscription as genuine, it furnishes an interesting illustration of the pains to which people will go to produce a convincing-looking antique, and the impossibility of doing so without immense and laborious preparation. Sorry, but at least you did try.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah that was my first thought.
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habeeposted 15 years ago
A big part of Christianity is faith - believing in something you can't prove. Why argue about it?
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  As long as one is not searching for truth, there is no problem. You know me though, right holle?
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Onusonusposted 15 years ago

Heres another good one that was found at the ancient Mesoamerican city of Izapa.
The "Lehi Stone" is chalked full of features which share an uncanny resembelence to Lehi's vision described in the Book of Mormon. Ie tree of life, Iron rod, the travelers, the filthy waters, etc...
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  How did you determine there is a an iron rod in this depiction, or that the tree of life looks like this one?
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  use your imagination, what do you think the tree of life looks like?
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It's a depiction of a mesoamerican world tree. Ripping off the relics of another culture is not a good strategy. It is a part of their mythology, not your's.
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Is that a fact, or did they rip it off from Lehi?
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It pre-dates the mormon chronology for Lehi's alleged trip west.
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thats debateable, the tree is dating to at least the Mid/Late Formative periods of Mesoamerican chronology. the "mid" portion laps over the time of Lehi, and the "late" period starts well after Lehi and his family lived.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The Olmec civilizations had already established their mythology well before the supposed arrival of Lehi. This shouldn't be surprising, or up for debate that one civilization needed to steal the idea of a sacred tree from another civilization. Many, many civilizations had some form of tree worship going on. And there really aren't any significant similarities between the hebrew tree of life and the mesoamerican world tree ideas.
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Onusonusposted 15 years ago

In Joseph Smith's era it was laughable to think that any form of ancient book of gold existed.
Heres some recently discovered plates of gold written in the Etruscan language. As is evident from the photograph, this book was created on metal plates that are bound together with metal rings? similar to the original source documents that became the Book of Mormon.
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No, it was not laughable at all. Once again you confuse similarities, vague at best, with evidence supporting your belief. This item equates in no way to Smith's claims. James Brown had gold records, ya know!
  
  Got anything which relates to real evidence?
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Okay, no. In 1823 -the ironic year Joseph Smith first supposedly discovered his find- two different publications which would likely have been readily available to Joseph Smith's wacky mystically religious family spoke of religious engravings on metal. Smith admitted himself to knowing of at least one of them at the time of his discovery.
  
  This etruscan book does however have one thing in common with Joseph Smith's alleged source material. It's a funereal item, as were papyrii Smith allegedly used to translate part of his pearl of great price... stuff.
  
  There's other stuff, other references -such as the bible itself-to inscriptions on gold or other metals, but it's late. You guys need to do your research. Try non-mormon sources, you'll get a clearer picture.
  
  No good, try again.
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Randy Godwinposted 15 years ago
Gonna crash now, but will check out any real evidence if the claimants can deliver any. It's been real!
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Onusonusposted 15 years ago
And certainly not biblical facts on metal plates, but......

The copper scroll was discovered as part of the dead sea scrolls in Qumran and contains a list of locations of which various items of Gold and silver are hidden. One of those locations being on the property of, "The house of Hakkoz" which is where the second temple was built in Jerusalem during the time of Ezra and Nehemiah.
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Onusonusposted 15 years ago

Here's a recently discovered alter found in a place called Nahom, Yemmen. Until recently, knowledge of such a place existed only in the book of Mormon.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The placement of a tribe using it for a name was known prior to SMith's "discovery" and "revelations". Considering what Smith and his family was, it's likely he knew of it as well.
  
  Additionally there is no reason to think NHM corresponds with Nahom. There is in fact reason to think it doesn't. Several pronunciations are speculated, Nahom isn't one of them.
  
  Let's say it is though. Let's say the tribe refered to as NHM is in fact -or was in fact- Nahom the place Smith mentions. It proves nothing except for that Smith was aware of the references, just as he himself admitted to having read of inscribed plates of gold and other metals.
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Nice answer, where did you come up with that one, "Tower of truth"? "Living Hope"? "Defending the faith against Mormonism"?
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  Hokeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Your finished huh? She has politely shown all of your claims to be pure rhetoric. All you can do now is insult You know what blind faith is? Blind!! You know what blind faith in something taught to you by another man is. Insanity!!
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hey I've been polite to PB for the most part, The fact that the early Hebrews didn't use voules in their sentence structure isn't my fault, One could say the same thing about words like "YWHW"
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hey I'll grant you this, the NHM thing was the best you offered, really, all things considered. It's just that there's too much against it. The fact that it was known at the time. The fact that the Smith's family and community probably had access to the information. The fact the the word is commonly used in various ways in the bible. And the fact that mormons had another placement for their Nahom, but changed their theories to fit the discovery of the NHM inscribed alters, and the fact that the various possible, given pronunciations don't match Nahom.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Uhg, no. LOL. I prefer more respectable sources for my information.
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I realize that the things which I have presented are easily refutable, just as is trying to prove that Moses parted the Red Sea, or that Jesus rose from the dead.
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jpop13posted 15 years ago
Mormons are free to believe what they want but they are certaintly not christians and do not abide by the word of the christian God. The God of the Bible is omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient. The Bible says He is the only God and there are no other Gods. He had no beginning or end and he is a spirit being and never was a man. Mormons proclaim this crap, "eternal progression." Romans 1:22, "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things." Also the Christ in the bible and that of the mormons are not the same.The Mormon Jesus is the son of this man god.The Mormon Jesus is the brother of Lucifer , and according to LDS popular LDS thought, married several of the Marys of the New Testament. He is not, to the LDS church, "God incarnate" as the Bible plainly states. Clearly, the Mormon god and Jesus are not the true God and Jesus of the Bible. Orson Hyde, the Mormon Apostle said, "We say it was Jesus Christ who was married in the marriage of Cana of Galilee." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, page 80) Brigham Young, said, "When the Virgin Mary conceived the Child Jesus...He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is His father? He is the first of the human family." (Journal of Discourses, Pages 50-51)

Compare this with the Word of God which says:

"And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." (Luke 1:35)

"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being
interpreted is, God with us." (Matthew 1:23)
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Like other Christians, we believe Jesus is the divine Son of God. Satan is a fallen angel.
  As the Apostle Paul wrote, God is the Father of all. That means that all beings were created by God and are His spirit children. Christ, however, was the only begotten in the flesh, and we worship Him as the Son of God and the Savior of mankind.
  
  Also, LDS doctrine does not subscribe to traditional creedal trinitarianism. That is, the LDS do not believe the extra-biblical doctrines which surround many Christians' ideas about God, such as expressed by the Nicene Creed. Specifically, the LDS do not accept the proposition that Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are "of one substance (homoousios) with the Father," as the Nicene Creed declares.
  
  Rather, LDS doctrine teaches that God the Father is physically and personally distinct from Jesus Christ, His Only Begotten Son. The Father is understood to be the literal father of His spirit children.
  
  LDS believe that Jesus Christ's role is central to our Heavenly Father's plan. Christ is unique in several respects from all other spirit children of God:
  
  I could go on forever debating our doctrinal differences concerning the bible, the main point is that we are indeed Christians, We talk of Christ, We preach of Christ, we prophecy of Christ and we write according to our prophecies so our childeren will know where to turn for a remission of their sins.
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  Mark O Richardsonposted 5 years agoin reply to this
  Well said, Onusonus.
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Onusonusposted 15 years ago
It was also a joke to think that the ancient inhabitants of America were exposed to the Egyptian language.

Oh, except for the Micmacs.
The Micmac language was discovered by Catholic priests in 1609 when, as they preached to the Indians, they were shocked to see them taking notes in a strange language. The priests copied the characters, which much later were compared to hieroglyphs used by ancient Libyans and Egyptians and found to have many of the same meanings!
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No they didn't. A few vague similarities is all you got.
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  your right, those symbols look nothing like eachother.
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  Hokeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Your just manipulating. Same old game. Different day.
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I've never been manipulative in my life. Just ask me, I'll tell you.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  There are a few vague similarities. You presented a list of four, and only one of them was interesting. Heiroglyphs by definition are going to be similar to each other. Will you point out how amazing it is that the symbol for sun is a picture of a sun in both forms?
  
  Who should I believe, a religiously biased community or modern linguist experts? The former is fed twisted untruths by their leaders to support their storylines, while the latter say there is no connection. Or are you going to tell me that the modern experts are working under the influence of the "Adversary"?
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Nope, but when dealing with archaeology you have to realize that they are trying to put together a 10000 piece puzzle only being given ten pieces. One can only make educated guesses at best.
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  (Q)posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  While I suspect your numbers were produced from thin air, it is quite obvious that archaeologists "educated guesses" are far more valid and credible than a con man forming a cult based on falsehoods.
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  (Q) Shouldn't you be out feeding the starving kids?
  You never did answer my question, what percentage of your income goes to feeding the hungry?
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'd be impressed by the charity of mormons if I didn't suspect that the main purpose of their missions was recruiting.
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  PB 100% of the fast offerings of the church go to the poor. Not tithes as (Q) has eroniously pointed out.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I think this statement is misleading. The LDS church is well known for having a strict adherance to 10% tithing. The monthly fast offerings are in addition to the tithe.
  
  I'm not sure what it is you mean. Are you suggesting that only the fast offerings go to the poor, and the church uses the tithes for other purposes?
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not sure about everything that the Tithing goes to, alot of it is for building upkeep, missionary efforts, Church pubilcations such as magazines, books, etc., Food storage wearhouses, and disaster relief funds.
  Theres alot of different stuff, but none of it goes into the pockets of Church leadership.
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  (Q)posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, sure.
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  (Q)posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  http://churchtithesandofferings.com/blo … tatistics/
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I agree. You have a young boy growing up in a religiously wacky family who involves itself in all sorts of mysticism. Several members of the family claim to have visions and mystic abilities. They live in a community full of religious and mystical thrills, which rather encourages such behavior. Eventually the boy grows up to be a treasure hunter, leading others on treasure hunts through the use of a magic rock. As he grows into adulthood his charisma and aptitude for bullshit get him the attention of females.
  
  I think the significant thing which was revealed to Smith was that people will believe in anything.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well educated guesses are better than indoctrinated ones in my book.
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  Mark O Richardsonposted 5 years agoin reply to this
  Pandoras Box-
  Why are you against the LDS Church? What is your motive?
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  Hokeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Not trying to offend anyone but you said discovered by Catholic priests. The history of the Catholics does not merit trust to me and I am only speaking for myself here. They have created evidence and stories just as the Mormons have so holding one up by the other is not supportable.
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jpop13posted 15 years ago
Those symbols are consistant with most ancient cultures. The stars are referred to as the heavens in almost all of the ancient cultures and the cross has always been used as well, the circle under it is especially used by cultures who believe in reincarnation. And the pyramids are constillations which again are stars in the heavens.
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I guess hindsight is 20/20.
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jpop13posted 15 years ago
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. " (John 14:6 ) Belief in the real Jesus Christ is the only way a man can receive forgiveness of sin and eternal life. The LDS church in presenting a false Christ is, in fact, leading souls away from salvation and the real Jesus. They reject God's truth and substitute another Jesus who does not exist and cannot save. Only those who believe in the biblical Jesus Christ will go to heaven when they die. Those who put their trust in a false Christ will be eternally lost. A Jesus that does not exist cannot save. Every true child of God knows this and that is why we try so hard to point men away from false churches, prophets, gods and Christ, that they may find God's true Son the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved.

Let God speak for Himself by His Word.

Matt. 24:24, "For there shall arise false Christ, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. "
"Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. " (Acts 4:10-12)
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I believe in those exact words, however I didn't see anywhere that said there would never be a true prophet in the last days as well, in fact the book of revelations says that there will be two prophets who will be murdered in the streets of Jerusalem and they would be resurected shortly afterwards.
  Hence there is biblical evidence that there will be true Prophets sent by God in the last days.
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  Mark O Richardsonposted 5 years agoin reply to this
  jpop13-
  We don't believe in just reciting a few lines to get "saved", then calling it good. We believe that we will be judged by our actions, so we strive to follow Christ by our actions.
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jpop13posted 15 years ago
I would implore Mormons to honestly and openly examine their teachings about God and Jesus Christ and who the Bible defines as being a Christian. There is no benefit in calling yourself a "Christian" when biblically you are not. Because I love the souls of men and want to see them saved and to spend eternity in Heaven with our Savior, I strongly object to anyone proclaiming to the world a false Jesus Christ and a false Gospel. We do not want to see anyone miss having their sins forgiven and receiving eternal life, because they were deceived. I dont mean to sound ignorant to those non-christians but if you are one and think mormonism is a true denomination of it you have been miss led and will not reach heaven as it is described in the word of the living god, the bible.
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jpop13posted 15 years ago
Yes but I doubt a man that died over 100 years ago named Joseph smith is that prophet.
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I didn't say he was that specific Prophet, in fact I don't think that part of the book of revelations has happened yet.
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Onusonusposted 15 years ago
Jesus said "I have other sheep that are not of this fold" (Nephites/Lamanites)
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jpop13posted 15 years ago
Very true, but that truth will be revealed to us on Gods terms only and not of the terms of any man.
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  jpop13posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Also I;m not some old white guy, lol. I also invite you to please look at my Hubs. Also I gathered what I typed here and made it one hub.
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Great another Anti-Mormon Hub for the round file. Pass.
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I agree, no one in Heaven or Earth knows the time of the coming of the son of God.
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iantoPFposted 15 years ago
I've found this thread to be fascinating from beginning to end. It demonstrates why I occasionally read the forums but rarely participate.
I am something of an amateur historian and so I have read a great deal about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. The story of their growth in many ways resembled the development of early Christianity. Where the first Christians existed as a sect of Judaism then broke away to form their own religion, so for a while it seemed as if the Mormons would become a distinct religion. Unfortunately they have lost that drive.
While back in Wales I discovered the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants in my local library. They were translations of these books into Welsh from the 1852 publication. There was huge missionary efforts in Wales at the time. Anyway the edition of the Doctrine and Covenants that I read had a section 109 where the Church soundly and absolutely declared that no polygamy was practiced by or in the church.
So why did one the Mormon scriptures deny polygamy and why is that section not in any of todays religous publications?
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I didn't see anything in section 109 that talks about polygamy, perhaps you were thinking of sections 130 and 131?
  Also if the earliest hebrews practiced polygamy under the authority of God why do modern day Jews not do the same?
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  jpop13posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The problem is that the early jews did'nt know any better, also it was really only banned when Moses came about delivered the word of God onto man.
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Not so, there were rules in the books of Moses which governed the practice of plural marriage. Levirate marriage is most clearly spelled out in Deuteronomy 25:5-6.
  also check out Deut;21:15 and Exodus21;10
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jpop13posted 15 years ago
The Book of momons is clearly anti biblical "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Joseph Smith added nothing to the book of Revelations. also if you are to take that passage of scripture litterally about adding books to the word of God you might want to consider the fact that nearly the same instruction was given in the book of Deuteronomy, and therefore there should be no scripture added after Deuteronomy.
  
  Deut4:2 "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you."
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So when was the last time either of you destroyed another religion's temples? Have you killed everyone you know who doesn't follow your god? Have you slain Joseph Smith for being a false prophet and a dreamer of dreams? Do you crap in the woods?
  
  Just checking.
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I once shot an elephant in my pajamas. How it got in my pajamas I'll never know.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Sure you don't..
  
  Hey it's been real, I mean at least you didn't try to implicate me as someone with too much pride to think I had anything to learn like the other guy did. And you didn't accuse me of persecuting you, or working for the "Adversary" like gp always does, so I think we're cool.
  
  Take care now, and don't let them mormons get you into any trouble. Question everything, and when you want the unbiased truth, don't ask your religious leaders.
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks for the advice, and when I want the truth I fast and pray.
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  (Q)posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Depriving yourself of food only makes the brain not function properly, so I guess you're right.
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes (Q), depriving yourself of food does cause the brain to function differently. But when it is performed as a concecrated offering to the Lord it invites the Holy Spirit of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, to enter into your mind and your thoughts become tuned in to the teachings of the spirit.
  
  That and the money saved it will go directly to the feeding of the hungry.
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  Beelzedadposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Depriving blood sugar to the brain brings the terms delirious, weak and confused to the table.
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  All I'm saying is that you should give thanks to the Lord who has kept and preserved you from one moment to the next by lending you breath.
  You see that he has created you and caused that you should move and act according to your own will, of which you are indebted to him, and will be forever, and all that he asks is that you keep his commandments.
  And if you keep his commandments he does immediately bless you, and so he has paid you.
  And if you were to offer all of your time, tallents, energy, and your whole soul to him still you would be an unprophetable servent, and all that he requires is that you keep his commandments.
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  (Q)posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Has your Lord kept and preserved the starving children, too? Should they be indebted to your Lord, as well? Does your Lord bless the starving and deny them food? Can you shovel BS any better than that?
  
  But, you'll probably throw all this back in my face saying their plight is all my fault, yes?
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Why would I say it's all your fault? I don't blame the problems of the hungry on you, I just don't think you are doing anything to help them. Talk's cheap, so put your money where your mouth is, stop talking about the hungry people and start feeding them.
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  (Q)posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You see, you completely ignored the hypocrisy of your post and threw it back at me. Well done.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Apparently, anyone can be a prophet..
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I apologize for being over pious but that guys avatar realy creeps me out.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Aggressive and obnoxious is pious now? Interesting.
  
  What is your problem with clowns anyway?
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  BDazzlerposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  OK, I admit to being aggressively obnoxious in a pious sort of way ... or aggressively pious in an obnoxious sort of way ... or maybe even piously aggressive in an obnoxious sort of way ...
  
  But I kind of like the clown.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah - I guess you are right - although it is more the delivery.
  
  This is my favorite scary clown.
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  BDazzlerposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Scary? I think he's sweet!
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah well he creeps me the hell out!
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  Obscurely Diverseposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, all of the "meteorologists" are "technically" dedicated "prophets"... Excuse the overuse of quotations; praise be! Ha-ha!
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Somebody on another thread offered to get me a word from god. Personally.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yeh that's a sure way to bring on... visions. Of a sort.
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Ghost32posted 15 years ago
I don't have the answers to your questions. A few things I DO know about Mormons:

1. Two of my Dad's sisters married two Mormon brothers. One of those sisters has passed on and is buried in an LDS cemetery near my old home town.

2. While the "mainstream" LDS folks condemn polygamy or even deny its existence today, there are still various polygamous Mormon groups out there. I won't mention their precise location in order to hopefully protect their privacy, but one group is located about 5 miles north of a home I used to have. At the time I had a stepdaughter with both attitude and weight problems, and the Mormon kids were the only ones who didn't pick on her.

3. A stunningly beautiful Mormon girl I met while on the college rodeo circuit was delighted to have me as a "faraway cowboy boyfriend" about whom she could brag to her peers, but when push came to shove, I had to be dumped--as I wasn't LDS and therefore (in her eyes) not a suitable match. I'm not saying all LDS people take that approach by a long shot.

4. A pair of Mormon missionaries, fine young men in black suits, once knocked on the door of a group home where I resided as a live-in houseparent. The kids all scattered while I entertained the pair in the living room. Fifteen minutes later, after being slightly exposed to my non-Christian beliefs, they left so fast that one forgot his gloves. This was in Wyoming in early spring...and still cold enough that he had to come back and rather sheepishly pick them up.

5. While playing high school basketball, I was exposed for the very first time to a fellow player who amazingly never used cuss words--"Shoot!" was about his strongest exclamation...and yes, he was a member of the local LDS community. For me, that was probably my first experience of "culture shock". (The second was the first time I met a vegetarian, but she wasn't Mormon.)
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jpop13posted 15 years ago
I dont curse much either. I wont lie I do get excited here and their but I just dont really curse much and I'm not a mormon
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iantoPFposted 15 years ago
Gotta reply to those two posts;
I was in Utah in 2002 working for the olympics committee during the winter Olympics there. I found Mormon cussing to be highly amusing. The version of the "F" word was "Fetch" I guess when Mormons have sex they fetch. As for me I was working such long hours i was too frickin tired to fetch.
When I was about 14 I met two Mormon Missionaries back in Wales. After talking to them I told my Grandpa about it. Him being an old Druid. I told him that the Mormons said that Joseph Smith saw God in a grove of trees. He replied. "When you are in a grove of trees, don't eat the mushrooms."
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Ghost32posted 15 years ago
Understood. I've cut down my own potty-mouth dramatically with age, no question about that. And I've known, over the years, a LOT of people who "keep it clean". But in my high school years, in that small Montana town, cursing was the norm IF you weren't Mormon and IF there were no females around and IF there were no adults around.

Apparently we didn't count our coach in that equation, as I'm sure he must've been in the gym when a nasty word hit the air. None of used the f-word, though, at least not in public. That was considered to be way over the line, totally unlike what we see on even prime time TV today.

And...I'll have to remember that about the mushrooms....

I didn't know that about the word "Fetch", though I've seen it used in literature as one of the Devil's many names.
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iantoPFposted 15 years ago
I was not referring to the Doctrine and Covenants as it is published today. My reference is to the 1852 edition that contained a section 109 explicitly condeming polygamy. That section has been removed.
May I make a point however. I am not contributing to this forum to try and criticize or denigrate your religios beliefs. Neither would I ever want to steer you away from that which you hold to be true. My posts are the result of honest inquiry. I have known many Latter-Day Saints in my life and they form s sizable number of my facebook friends. Obviously I have asked these questions of others. The answers I receive are far more important than the questions themselves. My learning derives very little from books and far more from discussion.
One more thing; In fairness it should be pointed out that, While it may seem fair and reasonable to put the Book of Mormon to rigourous test, The same tests, when put to the Bible achieve similar results. ie;
There was no settlement at Nazareth until at earliest 200AD.
The story of the creation is nothing more than a re-writing of the Babylonian creation myth with the gross things taken out.
There is no evidence anywhere outside of the Torah that such a person as Moses ever existed. The Egyptians have no record of the seven plagues, not even of the death of the firstborn, they have no record of a slave revolt or of their army being destroyed in pursuit.
Criticism of another persons Holy writ is a two edged sword.
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  WriteAngledposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  And the Egyptians were meticulous about keeping records, which they engraved in stone!
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I never saw this before but heres a source which explains why that doctrine ended up in there and why it was taken out.
  http://en.fairmormon.org/Polygamy/1835_ … s_polygamy
  I also do not feel that your questions are denograting, they are in my opinion the most sincere out of anyone here.
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jpop13posted 15 years ago
Much of the records have been lost so it hard to disprove. And Nazerath could really be any small village in modern day Isreal, people have remember that we dont have an exact location on the site.
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jpop13posted 15 years ago
Also I'm not questioning mormon beliefs just pointing out that they are far from Christian doctrine and directly oppose the bible.
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  And all I'm saying is that Mormonism is Christianity in it's purest form.
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  jpop13posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Nope not true at at all. Any Religeon that tells you that you can be a god is only pulling the oldest trick in the bible. Thats how satan tricked eve. Now that I think of it all mormons are, accourding to the Old and New Testment either,
  A. Devil worshipers
  B. Idolters with their false god and prophet
  C. Not Christian at all and true in their own Abrahanic Religeon.
  
  The Apostles Creed would show smith abd his followers as heritics in the eyes of the Christian God.
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I respect and appreciate your opinion and right to believe in those thoughts. Agency and the freedom of choice for all of us is a wonderful thing.
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well it's right in the bible. you are somwhat oversimplifying the sentiment, but the bible does say that ye are gods and all of you are children of the most high. Psalm 82, Be ye therefore perfect even as your father Matthew 5:48, Is it not written in your law .....Ye are Gods? John 10;34, We are the offspring of God Acts17:29, Heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ Rom 8:17,
  And when we see him we will be like him, changed to the same image from glory to glory; crowned with rightousness Etc. Etc. Etc.
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  jpop13posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  In Genesis 2:7, it is clearly stated:
  
  "And the Eternal God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
  
  We are not his children we are mearly his creations, we come of the ground not of his being. You should read the full passages you are writing about, they mearly talk about how their is only one God, we can only live by the rules given to us.
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  Mark O Richardsonposted 5 years agoin reply to this
  Onusonus-
  Amen brother (purest form of Christianity)
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StormRyderposted 15 years ago
I know they must be pretty damned interesting because this thread keeps going & going & going!!
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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goldenpathposted 15 years ago
A devout Mormon is one who is true to their word, seeks good will and peace with those around them, and strives to rent the self of pride that learning may continue and grow. A devout Mormon sees eternity in the eyes of the young and diligently holds to the responsibility to raise that child to be upstanding and productive citizens. A devout Mormon strives for personal worthiness, always knowing that essentially we are all at the feet of the Lord. A devout Mormon loves family and believes it to be central to the great Plan of our Father in Heaven. A devout Mormon seeks deep the meaning of love and accepts their spouse as an eternal partner willing to spend all time and eternity in an unending line of progression. A devout Mormon seeks not the hatred of others and seeks not to mingle with that which is contentious and hard hearted. A devout Mormon acquires a taste for science, literature, knowledge - all from the best books the Earth has to offer. A devout Mormon seeks to maintain cleanliness, both inside and out, that the constant companionship of the Holy Spirit might be continually invited to dwell within. A devout Mormon constantly seeks that which is good, praiseworthy or of good report from the people and world around them. A devout Mormon accepts nothing on a wimb, but questions boldly the doctrines given. A devout Mormon takes responsibility for their own knowledge and continually studies, ponders, applies and prays in covenant with the Lord that all answers and knowledge can be obtained if we but put forth the effort to find it. A devout Mormon is generally reserved, upholding peculiar standards and characteristics of a caliber unknown to the world in general.

Regardless of the bitterness that this, and other like threads, has produced the members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are and will continue to be a peaceful people striving to do and be better people. Every person and every organization has less than perfect chapters in their history. Doctrines and precepts of personal progress and sacrifice of worldly pleasures take a lot of time to instill within the human family. It is not the norm for people to want to put forth a constant effort into personal well-being throughout their life. We, as humans, are programmed to take the path of least resistance or that which is easy. The doctrines of the Church are not popular for that very reason.

In an individual wants to make the sincere effort to better themselves in all facets of life they must learn the art of personal sacrifice and the fruits of taking the more difficult road than the rest of the world would go. In whatever religion or system of belief you have, this is true in order to acquire true happiness. Personal progress through sacrificing that which you readily want and desire.

You may now continue the gnashing of teeth.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  LOL Well sweetie pie - you certainly have outdone yourself.
  
  Hypocritical, passive aggressive, veiled insults and suggestions that you are a better person. Suggestions of an unprovoked attack to follow. Pious, holier than thou. Persecuted for striving to be a better person.
  
  All in just a few words.
  
  Wonderful. Absolutely wonderful
  
  *clap* *clap* *clap*.
  
  Deary me. I am impressed though. I bet you get a lot of unwarranted, unprovoked attacks huh?
  
  How sad that a parasite (church leader) such as yourself feels he is a better person. And how strange you still do not understand the animosity towards your religion.
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  A Texanposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You know Mark, it doesn't cost anything to clap, but it cost 47.50 to get rid of it!
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  (Q)posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Is that the most "recent" cost? hehe
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I don't know. It can cost quite a lot of you are not careful. remember - I have been to Texas.
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  A Texanposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That would explain the rise in cases.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  In your first paragraph you could replace "devout mormon" with "good person" and it would be true for most people regardless of their religious leanings. Especially if you lost the two references to a god. Being a good person is far from exclusive to mormonism, despite how you try to paint it.
  
  I would take exception to the reference to staying away from hard hearted people though. Hard hearted people -of which I am not one despite your implications that people who disagree with you are that and worse- hard hearted people are generally speaking the people most in need of love.
  
  Your statement is rather telling. Caring for people and helping society doesn't seem to be something that interests mormons, according to your statement. Unless of course they are people who agree with you, or might come to do so.
  
  In your second paragraph you mention that your interactions here have left you bitter. That's too bad. Perhaps as someone else advised earlier on you should step back for awhile. You may be too emotionally invested for constructive discourse. That's understandable. It can be difficult, I am sure, to be objective given your many years given to your church.
  
  I fully agree as I have stated more than once that the members of the LDS church are -like most people- "peaceful people striving to do and be better people." But I think you misunderstand when it comes to the unpopularity of the LDS church.
  
  It's not the doctrines that are hard to live by which make the LDS unpopular, it's the clarity of the origins of the central tenets. It is not only too obviously fraudulent in its origins, but I think it is embarassing to christians to have such a clear example in front of them of what a good charlatan can do.
  
  Your third paragraph I happily can fully agree with!
  That may be a first!
  
  But then you ruin it with your closing statement. I never gnash my teeth, and don't expect that I ever will.
  
  BTW, no offense, but for someone so supposedly well read you really should be able to spell a little better. It is sometimes difficult to grasp your meaning when you use words you don't mean to use. Plus it just makes it kinda hard to believe that you have indeed acquired "a taste for science, literature, knowledge - all from the best books the Earth has to offer."
  
  No offense, but as a learned man I'm sure you can understand the importance of knowing the meanings of the words you use, and the correct spellings for the words you meant to use.
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  (Q)posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry, but when you make claims like that which are clearly fabricated, you lose credibility with the rest of your statements and you demonstrate dishonesty in your discussions with others. Sad indeed, coming from a so-called "Minister"
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Why do you all continue to come back with slander? Grow up. You have no clue what you are talking about. Any of you. If you don't subscribe to the doctrine and have no vested interest in the doctrine then it is apparent that you all have nothing better to do then to slander someone. It's not a "pity me" situation. You are all doing it. It takes no effort on my part to see that there are those out there who love to constrain and twist my words.
  
  By the way, Pandoras Box, I can spell. You may not like the use of my words, but at least they are spelled correctly.
  
  As for the one who continues to call me sweetie pie, my pants do not zip or velcro from the other side. I don't share the same kind of affection for you as you are showing for me with your little "pet" names. I would appreciate it very much if all of you would relinquish you contention and persistence in twisting my words to suit your desires for excess slander.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Sweetie pie - if enough people tell you that you are being passive aggressive and condescending, you might want to question your approach. Still - do you get many unprovoked attacks? You never did answer that question.
  
  Not to mention outright lying now. I mean - the thing with the best books? Laughable. Which book is it tells you to charge people to marry dead people again? Slander? Deary me. Poor little you getting slandered like that.
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It is slander when you are clueless of what you speak of and have no desire to learn the meaning of what we hold sacred. Plain and simple. All of you see things so superficially. You see something you don't like, and without learning of it first you set out to grind it into dust. That has always been your pattern here. You have your beliefs and I have mine. That's the beauty of agency and freedom. We are individuals and variety in how we see the world is a good thing. Can't you just leave it at that without stringing us up on a cross and dancing around the fire as a heathen with no real cause? Try it, you might just find a little peace in your heart.
  
  Do I get a lot of attacks, yes, - provoked by me, no. I hardly ever state my beliefs anymore unless asked about them. It's those who know my faith and are driven, as a frenzy, to suppress my liberty to believe in such doctrines that take the steps to either physically or verbally attack.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  We're not attacking you, we're discussing mormonism. The problem is that anytime someone points out a fallacy in your position, you get upset and interpret it as an attack.
  
  What the heck is a wimb, by the way?
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It is an attack when you call it a fallacy. That's not discussion. That's abrasive. To discuss is to be open and curious of other viewpoints. Not to be converted to the ideas but rather to get educated by ideas. When any of you start off a comment using words like "fallacy", "ridiculous" or "cult" you are attacking with your words because those kinds of words are presumptuous and denote a knowledge already obtained, but has not been. To discuss means you choose your words carefully so that both parties remain on neutral ground. If, at the end of the discussion, differences remain then both parties respectfully thank the other and acknowledge a good exchange and part ways. A conversation is much more productive and takes much less time when it is conducted in a civil way. I respect your thoughts and ideas but if you are going to presume that we are truly "discussing" something then it must be done in a civil and respectful manner, otherwise all is lost in what could have been a productive conversation. That's all I ask.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I call your position a fallacy and you call mine bound for hell, which is more offensive?
  
  You never did tell me, what is a wimb?
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  See above for wimb. I've never said any of you are bound for hell. It's another twist of words that have never been said. I've always said that judgment on the salvation of an individual is something we don't do. That's up to Him. Never said it. Never will. I don't judge you as a person. I am critiquing the words used, obviously against me, and doing my best to correct all the rhetoric and misinterpretations of my faith.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Right. So when you said we were "gnashing our teeth" you didn't mean anything biblical by that right? Right.
  
  Just because your aggression is passive doesn't make it any less aggressive, or offensive.
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Gnashing of teeth is the frenzy that occurs when someone or a group of people actively conspire, whether individually or as a group, to suppress or divert the intentions of another that they vehemently oppose, have disgust for and have no desire to understand or tolerate.
  
  Interested in the aggression that I am now charged with, again. I'm still baffled how my words, calculated to promote mutual understanding, is misconstrued to seem aggressive. I've never used the words I talked about before in relating to any of you.
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  Hokeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I have no urge to suppress, divert your intentions. You do not disgust me and I live by tolerance. I am just here waiting for some kind of actual proof of all these claims I have read here and yes I have read every single post in this forum. Thats all.
  
  We are formed and molded by our thoughts. Those whose minds are shaped by selfless thoughts give joy when they speak or act. Joy follows them like a shadow that never leaves them.
  
  Buddha
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That's wonderful news! We have common ground! I entirely agree and accept your last paragraph. See, eventually we can obtain mutual ground.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Oh please....
  
  And I have never heard the term gnashing of teeth used in the way you claim it to be.
  
  However, supposing it did, there you go crying persecution again...
  
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I thank you for the conversation.
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  (Q)posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, it's a very fine line between the culpable and the accusation.
  
  The funny part is that there are many gods making many different accusations, all of which would demonstrate that we are all culpable and bound for hell if we had to stand and deliver in front of all those accusers.
  
  It'll be just like a college hazing, where we all try to run down a corridor of gods all holding paddles from hell and heaven waiting to wallop our behinds and hear us yell, "Thank you Lord, may I have another?"
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I also saw "Revenge of the Nerds" back in the 80's as well. It was hilarious back then. I don't entertain these kinds of movies any more. They are quite suggestive and I have no taste for it anymore. Those boys went through some torture trying to get initiated into the different fraternities.
  
  Thanks for the memory recall!
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Wimb - without thought or careful consideration. One can take a vacation on a wimb. Meaning, it is done without planning or long term thought. We don't accept doctrine on a wimb. Meaning, we are not mindless in believing everything we are taught. It is our practice to, personally, take the effort to learn, study, search, apply and pray about every avenue and every principle we are taught.
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  Hokeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I think you mean Whim.......
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That may be. I've never seen it spelled that way but am totally willing to accept my incorrect spelling of that one word. I'm just curious though. Is that one word the reason for that whole paragraph a while ago about my not being able to spell? I'm not well versed in all language but I'm always striving to correct my faults in grammar and spelling. Please do note these corrections in the future that I may better my wording. Thanks for the "eagle eye."
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well combined with the fact that it was in the same post wherein you spoke so highly of a mormon's constant pursuit for knowledge, and that you misused the word rent using the past tense when you shouldn't have, and the fact that onusonus posted just before you with a good deal of mis-spellings, yeh.
  
  I value good spelling and grammar. I don't mind intentional slang, and I try not to be pedantic about bad spelling, but when you're being so boastful it's hard to resist.
  
  And wimb did throw me for a minute. I expected better from you, honestly, and for a minute thought it was some mormon term I was unfamiliar with.
  
  By the way, I just reread the post, to double check, and I find you offensive again.
  
  You said: "A devout Mormon is generally reserved, upholding peculiar standards and characteristics of a caliber unknown to the world in general."
  
  Peculiar I'll grant you, but it sounds more like you're trying to place yourself above others. Very insulting. I feel all attacked and persecuted.
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Not really, and I chose those words carefully. Because of the peculiarity devout Mormons have in the way they carry themselves, others place us in a social category by itself. It's that category that is described as "caliber". Some will even go to extremes as to murder and plunder a Mormon because of this caliber or category preconceived of them. Some, however, will actually seek out and even hire a Mormon because of the integrity and honesty they display. Usually the ones that hire are not LDS. I know you won't believe this but we have companies that actually call us for referrals to come in for an interview. That's the caliber. That's the category. That category obviously differs from person to person.
  
  I am surprised that no one has asked why I used the term "devout Mormon." We are as human as anyone else with faults and imperfections. As with any other faith we have the very pinnacles of faith examples and we have those who are not as faithful and seek not any personal progress. That list mentioned before is a list of characteristics of devout Mormons and not all Mormons.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah actually what you say is true, and I don't deny it. Well except the part about people being out to get you because of it, that I don't know anything about.
  
  The integrity level is high among the mormon laypeople. I wouldn't empirically say it's of a caliber uncommon in this world though, and I think it's misplaced. Integrity without good judgment isn't necessarily a good thing.
  
  By the way, it's really bad etiquette to toot your own horn like that. Makes you sound like a pompous wind-bag. Just saying it for the purpose of promoting understanding.
  
  Been real, gotta go do stuff now.
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  Obscurely Diverseposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Wimb? Is that a euphemism for 'whim' and 'blunder'...combined to equal this queer term of yours that you proclaim as "wimb?" Just curious...
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well sweetie pie - I have been trying to explain why you are provoking the attacks. You might want to read what you have just written and contemplate the word "slander." All I have done is pointed out that you are making hypocritical passive aggressive attacks. Although - I must admit this attack is much more honest.
  
  I have peace in my heart sweetie, and I am shocked that you feel the need to make an unprovoked attack on me, when I am just expressing my honest opinion and beliefs. I do object to you abusing children by teaching them the nonsense you believe though. I have managed to educate a few missionaries I came across here in France, and they now understand why religious "leaders" are actually parasites - even Jeebus agreed with m eon this point.
  
  Where is the T O L E R A N C E of which you speak?
  
  I am not trying "to suppress your liberty to believe in such doctrines," - you can believe whatever you like - but I am at liberty to explain what hate mongering, passive aggressive nonsense it is. Am I not?
  
  I mean- baptising dead people against their wishes to claim an increase in the size of your church? Disgusting behavior. Some one on this thread threatened to do it to me after I am dead. Sounds more like Voodoo to me.
  
  Just what is it you think I do not understand about your religion?
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  skyfireposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I've one question, like other religions or cults etc, do mormons form a group and create business or try to colonize typical geographic area in city/state just like islamics and chinese do ?
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Nope. We live in all parts of the globe.
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  skyfireposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No you didn't get the question i think i was not clear with it. I mean do mormons live by forming colonies or they prefer to live among other faiths, secular people without any problem ? I'm asking this cause these days i'm seeing pattern with Islamic, Christian people forming colonies in some x place in city and populate that area, expertise in some business and preach faith. So that is why i asked if Mormons do the same or they feel secure living among other faiths, secular faith.
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Not really. Mormons are pretty evenly spread throughout the globe. A common phrase in the Church is that as members we are to live "in the world, but be not of the world." We are to learn all we can and live amongst other faiths and beliefs. It is the coined way toward understanding and tolerance.
  
  Now some would differ and claim Utah as proof. True, Utah does have an extremely high concentration of LDS membership. However, we must first look at the reason why. After the Mormons were forced out of Illinois in the first part of the 1800's, The Mormon exodus took them, walking mostly by handcart, over a thousand miles to the Great Salt Lake Valley. Aside from the hospitable Native Americans the land was largely uninhabited. So, the membership settled and flourished. However, despite the high concentration the leadership sent directives out to thousands of people asking them to settle and grow other areas. Scores of towns throughout California, Arizona, Nevada, Colorado, Wyoming, Nebraska, Iowa, Kansas, Idaho, Mexico, Canada, many islands of the sea and many other places have their beginnings with Mormon settlers.
  
  At one time, for primarily safety reasons, the membership may have desired to settle in close proximity with each other. However, the safety issue has diminished greatly over the past few decades and now the LDS membership is very much intermingled with locations of all facets of life and religious backgrounds.
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goldenpathposted 15 years ago
By definition, tithing is 10% of one's increase. He has enabled us to acquire our increase. In return He only asks for 10% of that to build up the Church's presence around the world. Those funds go to support our temples, meetinghouses, Church grounds, offices, maintenance and other things of the like. Fast Offerings are strictly for the relief of the poor and the needy. The two funds are NOT interchangeable. Fast Offerings are donations above and beyond the allotment of tithing. I am a Church leader and so I know the use and sacred nature of Fast Offerings. However, I used to work for the Church in Salt Lake City and am well aware of the allocation of tithing and what it's used for.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Huh. I read somewhere that the strict tithing was used partially for humanitarian efforts. I guess they meant efforts "to build up the church's presence around the world" disguised as humanitarian efforts.
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  A Texanposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I don't have a dog in this fight but I'm curious, how much of your income do you donate to charitable causes?
  
  This ought to be good.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Currently I have no income to speak of. However, to causes I believe are worthy -and occassionally to some I am rather skeptical of- I freely give from my husband's!
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Every individual is urged to give generously. There is no set amount for offering for the benefit of the poor and the needy. It is entirely up to the conscience of the individual to determine that. A good rule of thumb that we use is that we fast for two consecutive meals in which we offer the value of those two meals to the Fast Offering Fund. It's not much, individually, but is still a part of sacrifice for the lifting of burden upon these fellow beings. Some are able to offer much more, thousands or millions, and others offer what they can, pennies or dollars. Either way is the same. It's all a sacrifice and received the same.
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  (Q)posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  And, being used to finance the building of a multi-million dollar hotel in Hawaii.
  
  "Current plans call for a total redevelopment of the antiquated inn, according to Hawaii Reserves, Inc., the management arm of the LDS Church, which owns the inn."
  
  http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7053 … hotel.html
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Of course there are companies and corporations of any religion. They are not funded through tithes but rather private funds of independent owners.
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  (Q)posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  This one and the other one are through tithes, my friend. In fact, if you look deeper into these stories, you'll find a lot of LDS members stopped paying tithes as a result of the bad business decisions the LDS corporation was making.
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Lack of faith on their part, bro, but hardly proof that the Church is of no worth. I know where the funds go.
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  (Q)posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You think this is about faith? That statement only shows just how out of touch you are with reality.
  
  The LDS Corp. are blundering ahead with these projects against every financial consultation telling them not to go ahead, based on current economic conditions. They went ahead anyways and have squandered billions of dollars. Those LDS members who stopped paying tithes understand the LDS Corp. have squandered the money and have stopped paying the tithes. That 22 story tower remains mostly empty.
  
  It's very simple to understand, goldenpath. People may hold the faith of your god, but they also don't want to see their money being squandered by idiots.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Really? I gotta look at this later.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  This isn't true. Neither statement.
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  For use of tithing read Malachai 3:8
  For fast offering read Isaiah 58
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jpop13posted 15 years ago
How can a mormon be a Christian if their christ and god are not one and the same with the ones in the Bible. The Bible is the standered bearer by which all christians are judged by our creator, the book of mormon is nothing but a false gospal written by a false prophit. How ever if you and the LDS would just call your selfs mormons I and other fundamentalist christians would not react. I meen I'm not a muslim, I do not abide by the koran so I am not a muslim, and your church clearly abides by the Book of Mormuns over the bible which would make you a non christian.
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  ..while the bible is all gods word, sure, wanna buy a bridge?
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xboxps3wowposted 15 years ago
i know that they don't live here in chicago... thats a much as i know
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Hokeyposted 15 years ago
This makes you look like a control freak. Now that you have had your say everybody can now go on about their business huh?

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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It still happened....
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Our business apparently according to him of hating his nonexistant god and practicing for our supposed future in his nonexistant hell.
  
  Yet we are the ones being big meanies.
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  Routledgeposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Nonexistant God? You don't believe in God? There is only one. LDS believe in the same God as you (assuming you aren't Atheist though you seem to be a bit)
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I do agree that all the gods are pretty much the same.
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  Hokeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Peace comes from within. Do not seek it without.
  
  Buddha
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  Hokeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The way is not in the sky. The way is in the heart.
  
  Buddha
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  PB, Mormons don't believe everyone else is going to a big fire pit with little guys running around in red pajamas and horns poking you in the glutes with a pitch fork, and forcefeeding you doughnuts untill you go crazy, or making you stand waste deep in poop, or being strapped down to a chair and forced to listen to the bay city rollers for all eternity.
  
  We believe that there are levels of Heaven and people are rewarded according to how they lived in this life. But even the lowest level of heaven is thought to be infinately better than this life.
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  Hokeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  My question to you is why do you believe it? Is it because you were brought up that way? Is it because of the Book of Mormon? If so how can you blindly follow a book that was wriiten by a man who claims it is the inspired word of God? Anybody can do that. Nobody knows what is going to happen when we die. Nobody knows except for the dead and they aren't telling. How can anybody state as fact what happens after death? Anyone can claim visions. Anyone can claim divine messages. My question is why do you believe this? I agree that the principals of kindness, tolerance, compassion, generosity, love and morality are to be practiced. This is what my practice is made of, but to believe whole heartedly in a teaching that claims all these things with no proof at all to back up any of it? I am no fan of the bible but at least there are some historical facts. So why do you believe this to be the truth?
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  Hokeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  since I have been ignored I will ask again.........
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry for the delay, I have a newborn amongst three other toddlers. I'll have to get back to you.
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  Hokeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  OK
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thats a realy good question hokey, and I want to give you as much a forthright answer as I can.
  Ofcourse the thing which I want most, is to know the truth, about what to believe, in how the world works, about God, Heaven, Hell, etc. The short answer is that the spirit has manifested itself to me after much thoughtfilled prayer, and the LDS church is the answer that I received.
  
  I rellish the fact that you can't prove it, the more faith it takes the better I think. But it is the mere fact that I feel edified when I hear somone say that they know with a certainty that the church is true. This is when light, glory and imortality are laid before me and my understanding of the eternal nature of the soul is iluminated.
  
  I'm not trying to convert you but I would rather at least convince you that Joseph Smith believed it. So have a look at this and tell me if you still think he, being of sound mind, made it up.
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUqNW_PTTp0
  
  No matter what you think about these men, you can't say that they didn't believe it.
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Jim Jones' followers believed in him too, enough to give their children poisoned kool-aid. Their faith was strong, even if they were STUPID! But these types think they are right in their beliefs too.
  
  Mormons seem to relish the thought of being persecuted by "dark hearted slanderer's." They seem to take great joy in claiming ludicrous events and historical inaccuracies, as if they are hoping someone will call them on their silly statements.
  
  But when someone attempts to question them about clearly false statements they claim the questioners are in league with the "adversary." In other words, we are working for Satan to discredit their cult.
  
  What they do not realize is they are their own worst enemy. The words they speak are enough to tell everyone what they are truly like. Obviously, the priest has a classic "persecution complex." Everyone is out to get him, he thinks, when actually most are laughing at the claims of slander and persecution.
  
  But these are the type people who fall for such scams. Weak minded and easily led by those above them. They are told they will be questioned and laughed at because of their faith. But their faith is not what troubles others, it is the ease with which they deny reality.
  
  Even though the history of their cult is well known, they have been convinced it is because others hate them because of their goodness. Goodness pisses people off, I guess.
  
  Before this thread started I had no hard feelings toward the Mormon faith. I simply didn't care what they believed. But now after conversing (or trying to) with a priest, I find the willingness to believe anything told to them by their prophets something akin to fanaticism.
  
  Do not bother asking them questions. They do not have minds of their own anymore. They live their whole lives in denial because of a novel written by a well know con man. Not slander, real truth which is clearly documented.
  
  Hell would be greatly preferred to having to listen to a Mormon priest preach his ignorance. Besides, any God who chose these people to spread his word must be extremely desperate.
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Oh Randy it's been so long since you have said a prayer to the one who created you. The ironic thing is that you have been ingrained with that traditionally Southern Baptist overtone of religious debate, yet you have no religion to cling to accept your three chambered steamroller bong. *sigh*
  It must be hard to deliver that cryptic message of tolerance despite hellfire when you just don't have that passion behind you as a support system anymore.
  Be Honest, you used to sit there in youth group with your Pastor and bash on Mormons and their Book of Macaroni didn't you? Do you miss it?
  Hmmmmmm...? I can tell you miss it.
  Well so much for Southern hospitality.
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No, I have never willingly been a member of any religious youth group, especially one which bashed the Mormons. I do not have a bong either, I prefer to roll my own.
  
  The leaders of the fundamentalist churches in my area are really no different than those of your faith. They think they are right and everyone else is wrong. They also are no different than the priest who posts here. They do not like to be questioned about facets of their belief which defy all logic and reasoning to those who know better.
  
  They delight in lecturing others and taking any criticism as an attack against them personally. Everyone is out to get them and represent the "Adversary." I have not conversed with anyone of your faith here without being labeled in some way or another.
  
  Take your last post for example. Just like the priest, you assume facts not in evidence. But you know what? I had rather converse with the likes of you than with the priest, who obviously has problem with his persecution complex. Your anger is apparent and easily understood, while he likes to think he is a martyr, taking a hit for his faith.
  
  It does not bother me for you to call me names or make assumptions about my personal life. Your opinion of me is just that, your opinion. It's too bad you guys have nothing to offer in the way of facts or historical evidence to back your claims. The old "I prayed and fasted on it" just isn't satisfactory for those of us who are used to using the sense "God gave us" to survive on this wonderful planet.
  
  I would not expect you to take this as an answer for any questions you may ask of me. I'm sorry you are so angry about those truly seeking to understand why your Mormon cohorts believe as they do.
  
  I asked questions to try to give you guys the benefit of the doubt, but was attacked instead. No problem, I learned more about you guys by your angry responses than any answers you have given. Peace.
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Oh Randy thou son of idiocrity how thou art fallen, how oft I have called you by the voice of sobriety and yet ye would not!
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I tried looking up both sobrioty and idiocrity in a dictionary but came up empty. Every Mormon I converse with seems to have a problem with their spelling. I suppose using spellcheck is not allowed by the Mormon church. I cannot imagine any other reason for not using it other than laziness. But this would not fit the claims of Mormon diligence by its proponents.
  
  This, in itself, does nothing to engender any confidence in your ability to understand basic reasoning and debate. But I will give you the benefit of the doubt until you give an explanation for your actions. Otherwise, I can only assume it is a flaw in the educational process taught by the Mormon schools.
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  New word; Idiocrity is the perfect blend of that which is just plane "idiocy" and pure "mediocrity" at it's finest!"
  sort of like a Wussy which is a combination of a whimp and a p@$$y
  And I went to publickk skoole.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You couldn't come up with a clever way to explain sobrioty, huh?
  
  LOL, well, if we've taught you nothing else, at least your spelling has improved.
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  WriteAngledposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I didn't realise Joseph Smith was killed. But then my knowledge of the LDS is very limited.
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  Jeramiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  These, every one of them are legitimate questions.
  The point that comes to my mind is that We all have our own reasons for believing or not. My reasons are good enough to convince me BUT ..
  IF I were to have a vision, who is to know besides my self if it was a vision or an illusion, or simply; I made up?
  
  As the Miss Clarol comercial once said. Only she knows for sure.
  The principals of kindness, tolerance, compassion, generosity, love and morality are also learned behaveior that society as a whole has established as to what it should be.
  These teachings began at some place and time in our past.
  Is there really any aspects of life that is not learned other than our five or six senses
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Routledgeposted 15 years ago
I could look at any Religion on earth and find something wrong with it if I wanted to. However most people could explain how that wrong thing is not really wrong. It is simply a lack of caring or understanding.
1 Corinthians 15
Which churches know what that chapter talks about?
Ephesians 12:7
Which churches understand that? (Read it in context, AKA the whole chapter)
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Pandoras Boxposted 15 years ago
Thank you. The best books on earth, eh?
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Literature of all types, not just religious, but covering all aspects of life and the world around us.
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Pandoras Boxposted 15 years ago
Seriously gp, do you honestly believe that we're all conspiring to get you. You are constantly crying about persecution, I am beginning to be worried about you. You seem awfully, excessively paranoid, even for a religious person.

Have you been breathing in the incense in the temple again?

Why are you so paranoid? Is it just an act to gain sympathy? Do you have a brain tumor? What is it, man? Just a life time of trying to support a rather insupportable religious position? Is that it? Has it left you bitter and paranoid?

You need to get over it, whatever it is. Your constantly crying wolf is insulting and childish and it is the least likable thing about you.
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Again, thanks for the civil conversation...
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(Q)posted 15 years ago
This 22 story high rise cost the LDS close to a whopping $3 billion.

"Aiding companies' decisions about moving downtown is City Creek Center, a three-block development by City Creek Reserve Inc., a development arm of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, in partnership with Detroit-area retail developer Taubman Centers Inc.

City Creek Reserve is spending more than $1 million a day on construction, and the project ultimately will cost around $3 billion, said Chris Redgrave, a KSL executive who also chairs the Salt Lake Chamber's Can-Do Coalition, which is looking for ways to jump-start the downtown economy."

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7053 … -Main.html
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I will tell you why the Church is heavily involved in the development of downtown Salt Lake City. The Temple! Again, is is very sacred to us. The General Authorities of the Church did not want the area desecrated with the usual things that accompany development that others experience. The Church is heavily in the planning and governing of the development of the downtown area to keep and preserve the sacred nature of the Temple grounds.
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  Hokeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Downtown Salt Lake City is a cess pool. I spent some time there when I was in active addiction. Used to buy dope by the temple.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No eating dinner with prostitutes, huh? Hmmm... Sounding less and less christian by the minute.
  
  Thank you Q, I'm gonna look at this later.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Interesting. Is that all part of advancing the presence of the church? Or is it charitable? Luxurious housing for needy people?
  
  I certainly hope it's taxed!
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iantoPFposted 15 years ago
I noticed Mark joined in. The success I am achieving in writing and writing skills is due in no small part to the advice of Mark Knowles. He is intelligent, gifted and generous with his online time and knowledge. He also seems to view these forums as his fishing lake. He throws the bait in and the fish rise to bite. It's all good clean fun and if he calls you Sweetie Pie just love him for who he is not for whom you want him to be.

Back at the point, I have another question. In the early days of the church the Latter-day Saints were very Pentecostal in belief and practices. Their meetings had prophecy, speaking in tongues, miracolous healings and all the other actions associated with the Charismatic movement. This side of early Mormonism is no longer evident. Why?
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  They were never pentacostal and hardly charismatic. They were solemn, reverent and humble. Revelation continues today as it did then. Healings take place as well, but in private and not for public display. The Church remains the same.
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  iantoPFposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  Could I trouble you to look at Brigham H. Roberts "History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" He mentions this part of the early church especially the Kirkland gatherings. The Mormon charismatic tradition carried on through Nauvoo and into Utah. When Joseph Fielding Smith abridged the work he left out those references. I have never had a satisfactory explanation of what happened or why that part of Mormon practice ceased.
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  Mark O Richardsonposted 5 years agoin reply to this
  I wasn't there, but it could be because people came from other churches and took some of their beliefs with them, just as the early Christians did.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Actually what ianto says fits in well with the background of the Smith family.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  This isn't true either.
  
  And several things about the beliefs of mormons have changed over the years. The inspired translation of The Book of Mormon itself has been repeatedly changed, and in quite a few significant ways.
  
  And mormons DID officially discriminate against blacks until the late 1970's.
  
  Why do you tell so many untruths, priest? Four at least for sure in this very thread. If you can at least admit that you were wrong, I'll retain a shred of respect for you. In fact, I may even respect you more. If you cannot admit that you were wrong, then as far as I am concerned you have little ground to walk on when you constantly and childishly demand our civility.
  
  Integrity?... As I told you before, a veneer of civility isn't really worth much.
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  PB, you might not be aware of the fact that most of the changes in the Book of Mormon were due to grammatical errors. And while it is true that the Priesthoood wasn't extended to Black people until the late 70's, in contrast there were thousands of years of history that went by when the gosple wasn't preached to anybody that wasn't a Jew. I'm not trying to defend the fact that they were treated differently but it is evident that this is a consistancy throughout the bible as well.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I honestly can't figure out what you're talking about. What do you mean? What do you refer to?
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The last post you made about the changes in the book of Mormon, and the church's dealings with black people. Or perhaps I misread you and you were quoteing somone else?
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Okay. What I meant was what were you talking about when you said nobody but the jews heard the gospel for thousands of years. But I reckon you were referring to judaism. I'm not used to hearing that referred to as the gospel is all.
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  Twenty One Daysposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  and look-y here at Miss Pandora with the smile. well alright. hiya.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah it appeared to be picture changing time. So I changed mine, too. Looking pretty sharp there, twenty!
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  Twenty One Daysposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  James, please. ps, thanks. must confess, my wife makes me look good, and the lighting. lol.
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Pandoras Boxposted 15 years ago
Sounds to me gp like you've been caught in two "untruths" in just the last few posts. Integrity, eh?

Or maybe you're just not as well informed and educated as you think you are?

Darn I gotta go. I'll be back later. BTW, gp, have you had a brain scan anytime lately? And are you on any medications? Not really my business, I know, but I really am concerned about your incessant paranoia. I think you might consider consulting a doctor. Or a shrink.
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Pandoras Boxposted 15 years ago
Hokey,

I am really glad you got out of that okay. You're a treasure.

Now I'm gonna go. Don't anyone say anything interesting till I log off!
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  Hokeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  OK!!!! Thanks!!!
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Timothy Donnellyposted 15 years ago
Hokey, let me respectfully try to answer your questions above, as best as this layman can, being an imperfect but convinced member.
My question to you is why do you believe it? I believe it because I have sincerely prayed about it (the Book of Mormon), and have been satisfied with a spiritual witness (wow!) which basically convinced me of its truth and divine origins. Note that the truth is about the storyline (for those who refuse to accept it as history, and the Divine origins pertaining to the prophecy and direct communications of Jesus Christ, ESPECIALLY in America).
Is it because you were brought up that way? No.
Is it because of the Book of Mormon? Yes.
If so how can you blindly follow a book that was wriiten by a man who claims it is the inspired word of God? Anybody can do that. I will ignore these last two loaded and/or rhetorical statements.
Nobody knows what is going to happen when we die. I agree, but we can have enough faith to convince us in a manner which is personal, and cannot be proven, but only testified to and about.
Nobody knows except for the dead and they aren't telling. That is your position, not mine.
How can anybody state as fact what happens after death? I don’t think that is possible; one can only weigh the integrity of the individuals testifying of this concept, or, one can gain their own personal testimony.
Anyone can claim visions. Anyone can claim divine messages. Correct, correct.
My question is why do you believe this? I have a testimony of the truth of the Bible and the Book of Mormon, where these things are written about and testified of.
I agree that the principals of kindness, tolerance, compassion, generosity, love and morality are to be practiced. So do I.
This is what my practice is made of (Kudos), but to believe whole heartedly in a teaching that claims all these things with no proof at all to back up any of it? This is called personal faith.
I am no fan of the bible but at least there are some historical facts. Agreed.
So why do you believe this to be the truth? So as not to sound repetitive, allow me to refer you to a few verses in the actual Book which is the foundation of the Mormon testimony. Please consider the record of Alma 32: 27-43. This can be quickly found at: http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?typ … D%0A%0D%0A
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Timothy Donnellyposted 15 years ago
If so how can you blindly follow a book that was wriiten by a man who claims it is the inspired word of God? Anybody can do that. I will ignore these last two loaded and/or rhetorical statements.
Perhaps I can suggest here that it is not the messenger who convinced me, but THE MESSAGE ITSELF.
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habeeposted 15 years ago
That's the problem with all organized religions - following blindly and not thinking for yourself at all. Most organized religions are all about controlling the masses.

For example, I'm a Christian, but I can read the Bible as well as any minister. I know right from wrong and don't need a preacher telling me how to live my life. I'm not saying that preachers have no useful functions - they do. I'm just not a fan of organized religion.
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Twenty One Daysposted 15 years ago
Ack! snakes on a thread! {oh that was a plane}

Hey Randy, how are things?
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Doin' great,21! Despite the curses put on me by the priest, I just won a new shotgun and then won $500 on a $5.00 scratch-off lottery ticket.
  
  Today I am going fishing with a few buds on the Alapaha river. Of course, even these pleasure trips can be used for producing new hubs and especially great photos. This is deep in "Hogzilla" territory, full of alligators, snakes, deer, wild turkey, and not to mention, the "Alapaha Bigfoot". Now that would be a great hub subject.
  
  What about you? Things running smoothly?
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  Twenty One Daysposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Florida or New York? lol . Either way, that shotgun might come in handy.
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You may be right! Lots of "vermin" in both of those places.
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jpop13posted 15 years ago
I have one question for all you mormons, can we work towards our salvation, can we earn it? This will state if you are a christian or not.
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  sneakorocksolidposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  To accept Jesus as your personal savior is the main requirement. The only way to Heavenly father is through Jesus. Jesus said we must love Heavenly Father and each other. That said words without deeds are hollow.
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  jpop13posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So do you believe that we can earn salvation through our works? Yes or no? Its a simple question.
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  sneakorocksolidposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Not with out accepting Jesus as your savior. But we believe you'll get another chance to accept him after you pass.
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  jpop13posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Even if you accept Jesus do you believe our works arw what earn us a spot in heaven? Do you think we can work off our sins?
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  Mark O Richardsonposted 5 years agoin reply to this
  James 2-Faith without works is dead. Revelation 20-We are judged by our works. We believe salvation is a process, not an event. We need to do our best to live right. If salvation is a million dollars, we must endorse it and deposit it. When Jesus said to the apostles "Come Follow Me" did they just say that they believed in Him, so they were saved? No, they followed Him.
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jpop13posted 15 years ago
its sad, You truly think that I am slandering you? I am not attacking your personal character, I think you have a good heart, I believe you truly want to find Christ but you have been mis led and a veil as been pulled over your eyes, you must open your eyes up to the bible and the teaching of the true christ, the one that is clearly not in the book of mormons.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'm so happy I'm blind to all this nonsense !!
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  sneakorocksolidposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You're a very sweet and sensible woman I know you would love our members. I was watching the young women cleaning a room at the church and they were by themselves and they were singing while they worked it was so sweet and humbling. When young women on there own work and sing together they are truely happy!
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hi sneak !!
  I feel like running away from here ! Fast !
  
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  sneakorocksolidposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No! I can tell you're a woman who would enjoy singing and you probably do when you're happy and content! You'd just do it more often! We all love you and want the best for you we need your great and loving attitude!
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Are you joking ??
  
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  sneakorocksolidposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No, I'm not your light shines bright here in the Hubs and your love for all is eaisly seen by all and I know you're a Great Mom! To love is to know Jesus that was Gods gift to us all!
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You see my light because I'm the Truth ! What God ?
  Adore me !
  
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  sneakorocksolidposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You're a powerful and amazing woman I'm proud to know you!
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  You're the first Mormon I can truly love !
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  jpop13posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  God gift to us was not to know Jesus! Gods gift to us was Jesus! Again this shows you clealy do not know much about the bible, you are being misled.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Don't mess with me !
  I'm the True Goddess !
  
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jpop13posted 15 years ago
For GOD so loved the world that HE gave his one and ONLY Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. The good works the LDS asks it members to do in order to receive salvation is false, for we are saved ONLY through the grace of GOD. We can not EARN a spot in heaven for it has already been earned for us through Christ.
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  sneakorocksolidposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thats not what we believe. We believe, as stated clearly in the new testament there are three levels of glory, your deeds will decide what level you attain. We don't believe very many will end up in darkness or hell. You should ask Golden path to explain the "Plan of Salvation" we believe in, hes more articulate than me and I'll say something wrong and have to try and explian what I meant.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  This sounds like some kind of 'Monopoly', Who throws the dice first ?
  I think I like this game! I'll try to get to 'salvation' first !
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  sneakorocksolidposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You'll go to Heaven, not to worry! You'll just have some learning to do after you pass.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  How much is there in it ?
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  sneakorocksolidposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well when you've passed and you're face to face with your spirit family(all of us) you'll know it's true and you'll want to know everything!
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  But I know everything, sneak !
  
  You'll get a big surprise when you die.
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  sneakorocksolidposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  God's not going to forgive me for lying to my Mom! Oh crap!
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  What if a huge green Budha greets you instead of God ?
  
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  sneakorocksolidposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'll kick my son for messing with me!
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  sneakorocksolidposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'll asume my son my son is messing with me!
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  jpop13posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Their is no learning to be done in heaven, their is only one level of heaven and their is only one hell. You either make it or you dont. Mormons accourding to the bible will not go to heaven. " Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name? And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!" (NKJV). Becoming a Christian does not mean belonging to a church, doing good things, or simply believing in God. Being a Christian means that you have trusted in the true God for salvation, in the True Jesus -- not the brother of the devil, not the god of Mormonism, not the gospel of Mormonism. Mormonism is false and cannot save anyone.
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  jpop13posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  If you not believe that God gave his one and only son for our salvation then you are not in anyway a christian. It says it in your own mormon approved KJ bible.
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  sneakorocksolidposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I stated that was the case, I agree. The levels of glory in Heaven are clearly defined in the New Testament.
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  sneakorocksolidposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You misunderstood what I said.
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  Mark O Richardsonposted 5 years agoin reply to this
  Its not to earn salvation, but to pay it back/forward. We know that Jesus is the Christ and that we are sinners. What is wrong if we want to do more than recite a few lines, then sin all we want. If all we needed to do was to get "Saved", why are people still here? In Heaven, do we just play harps and sing with the choir? There is an eternal progression.
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iantoPFposted 15 years ago
I've posted more in this thread than I have in any other topic. I usually stay away from the forums because of the style of discussion. I appreciate rigorous debate but sometimes it gets out of hand here. Still this thread fascinates me and I keep coming back to it.
I assume that goldenpath hasn't replied to my question about the pentecostal nature of the church's beginnings because he's researching it. I will be interested to see what he comes up with.
The fact that the mormon church has changed doctrine on certain things is an intersting fact in itself. The changes mirror the early christian church's doctrinal changes to such things as circumsision and the sabbath. The reason I have studied the church is because I saw an interesting trend. Just as the early christians were a jewish sect. Simply Jews who believed the Messiah had come and then became a religion in their own right. So I felt the mormons would move out of Christianity and become a religion in their own right. Unfortunately that opportunity is passing as the mormon church becomes more and more aligned with christian conservatism.
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  sneakorocksolidposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  All I know is that there is a radical side of the Pentacostal church that really don't like Mormons at our Conference they protest and yell insults. They also drill holes in books of Morman and drag them on the ground. It's very sad.
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  iantoPFposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  Thanks for the reply but that is not what I'm referring to. I'm asking about the early days of the church when they had speaking in tongues, conregational prophecy and healings. as occurs in the pentecostal or charismatic movement found in many churches. Including the catholic church. It's not a part of the service or belief any more and I have never been able to properly find out why not.
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  sneakorocksolidposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well you're right Golden's the man for that question, I do know we have been liked to Mason's from time to time.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That's at least partially because Joseph Smith borrowed his rituals from the masons.
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  sneakorocksolidposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry I wasn't ignoring you I just don't type very fast. I'm not very articulate so I can say things or type things wrong! I just love my Church and I wish you all would come.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  In order to maintain control, you can't have everyone prophecying and having their own revelations. Joseph Smith was the first to discourage the official acceptance of the 'charismatic' practices of his followers. By which I mean, only his own charismatics were to have any authority.
  
  However, the charismatics of his early followers is well documented.
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  Mark O Richardsonposted 5 years agoin reply to this
  In regards to our worship services, no, it is not like Pentecostal. See Galatians 5:22-23. We believe in reverence and peace.
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earnestshubposted 15 years ago
Yes it is hard knowing who has the right fairy isn't it?
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jpop13posted 15 years ago
Mormons are not and will never be Christians, all that they are if you want to be technicle are another offspring of the jewish faith. Again if they want to be mormons fine but as long as they have the book of mormon which by the way in its original form is a racist texts they can not be christians because accourding to the holy bible they give phrase to a false god and a false christ.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  According to the old testament christians do, too.
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  sneakorocksolidposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ok, we're wrong. I'm sorry we're so vile, take care friend.
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jpop13posted 15 years ago
Christ came to complete the law, the old testament predicted the comming of christ. Christ has done away with all the practices of the old testament but the moral virtues of it still apply. You should really read your bible.
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  sneakorocksolidposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I read all three all the time.
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  jpop13posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Their is only one holy book, the holy bible. The new and old testament, all other teaching out side of these two works of God and Christ are null and void.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Says who?
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  jpop13posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Says the only Bible. Again I have already pointed this out. The argument only works if you truly do consider your self a christian, if you are not a christian it fine but you wont get it.
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  Twenty One Daysposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  i do not agree. the 'bible' and 'christian' are titles given by men to men. both of which have no core, fundamental or true basis for belief or experience of spirit in Y`shua, even though their pages are filled with expressions of such.
  
  same as Shakespeare. Just because one owns a copy of Hamlet the unabridged version and can quote word for word does not make them Shakespearean, nor seeing every show he has ever performed, nor a backstage pass with the author himself. It just means one has a really good memory.
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  Mark O Richardsonposted 5 years agoin reply to this
  jpop13-
  What if someone said that you weren't Christian? Who are you to judge? God will be the judge of who is Christian and who is not.
  Twenty One Days-
  Amen.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, you guys aren't that hard to figure out. Well, okay yeh you are at first, but for me that was a long time ago. You may want to consider however that the doctrines you're picking over are also held by many non-mormon christians.
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  sneakorocksolidposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You know the New Testament is at the core of our religion?
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hi, Sneak! It's good to see a friendly face in the ring. It seems they set out to put us on a cross while dancing around us as heathens with no real cause. It is saddening to see such lack of understanding and tolerance in the world. However, tomorrow is Sunday and I will no let it get me down in the least. They are still, all, our brethren and sisters whether they like it or not. Probably not though.
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  sneakorocksolidposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hey Golden! You state it so clearly it's like being in Gosphel Doctrines, great job! I have a hugh respect for your patients and your ability to articulate the word. Have a good evening and I hope you and your family have a Blessed Sunday! See ya Brother Golden!
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  LOLOLOLOLOLOL
  
  Poor you! Every one is laughing at your ridiculous beliefs and this is nailing you to a cross just like you wanted.
  
  You need to learn some tolerance for the beliefs of others sweetie pie.
  
  Put you on a cross?
  Dance around you like heathens?
  No real cause?
  
  Your constant unprovoked attacks on me are enough to prove to me that you are no Christian. Jesus Christ would not be so intolerant. Special underwear and pbaptizing dead people against their wishes notwithstanding. I see you embrace Nazism and racism now though. And you expect to be able to propagate these hatreds in a free country? Interesting.
  
  How incredibly intolerant of you sweetie pie =- no wonder you get so many unprovoked attacks. Now you are just like Jesus being nailed LOLOL to LOLO the lololo cross lololo.
  
  Sorry - that was really, really funny. So funny I have to say it again.
  
  put us on a cross while dancing around us as heathens with no real cause
  
  Poor, poor, little you. And you are a leader? Dear me. No wonder your church is despised around the world. Do you think if you built a taller building?
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jpop13posted 15 years ago
Dont apologize to me, apologize to christ. Open up your heart and mind and read the bible, learn its teachings.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Apologizing ??
  Ugh !!
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  jpop13posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  LOL, I was talking to sneakorocksolid. Again everyone is free to believe what they want but that does not make them christians.
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  sneakorocksolidposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks.
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  sneakorocksolidposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  If we have displeased God we'll face the music but we are directed to not critisize other religions so if you continue this course all I can do is apologize.
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sneakorocksolidposted 15 years ago
Sorry guy's I got to go! I love you all, see ya later!
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