What do you know about Mormons?

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Hokeyposted 15 years ago
2nd Edict!!!

Long is the night to one who is awake.
Long is ten miles to one who is tired.
Long is the cycle of birth and
to the fool who does not know the true path.
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Timothy Donnellyposted 15 years ago
Here’s my lyrical view of Spirituality, and the solace I have found in Religion.

THANKS FOR LISTENING

To our Heavenly Father
The One that we adore
We hope we’re not a bother
While knocking at Your Door

We Thank Thee for Thy Wisdom
Thank Thee for Thy Grace
Thank Thee for the freedom …
Thank Thee for the space

Thank Thee for the blessings
We see in early light
Thank Thee for Thy Stressings
Which teach us to do right

Please grant to us the courage
We need to win down here
And bless us with a Marriage
That we may never fear

Please help us with our struggles
As we learn the ropes
And guide us through the troubles
And dramas which we cope

Please help us to be humble
And give to those in need
Guard folly does not stumble
Or tempt the souls that lead

We thank Thee for Thy Gospel
True wisdom It doth bring
And with Thy Holy Spirit
In joy and praise we sing!

Thanks for each new morning
We witness You each day
But most of all, the best thing …
Thanks for listening, while we pray!
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  LOL at those last two lines.
  
  Did you write this? If so, you're pretty good.
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  Timothy Donnellyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes I did, and thank you. It can be found on my profile page under My Psalm Of Gratitude. I just now added the original title to the list of my hubs so that it can be easier found. I hope you can see the seriousness as well as the sincerity in this hub of mine. I also have some more comical ones, but usually my writing is serious.
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  Timothy Donnellyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  After all, everything we post is silently recorded on the World Wide Web, available to all who choose to see it, including prospective employers, etc. etc. etc.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It's okay brother Tim. I have a magic rock!
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
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goldenpathposted 15 years ago
Sneaks and Donnelly and those of like faith. What we are seeing is in fulfillment of what Bible doctrines have taught us. Just the mere fact that this thread has amassed well over a thousand posts in less than six days is proof of the conflict between opposing forces.

Those looking at this thread need only look at who is throwing the javelin at who, in order to discern what spirit they've willingly allowed to dwell within them. I do not mean non-believers at all. I'm talking everyone! Contention breeds contention. That spirit, alone, is not of God but of Adversarial forces. It's unproductive and provides no hope. We, as Latter-day Saints, reserve the right and responsibility to "turn the other cheek" as scripture dictates.

For those here who profess that we are not Bible literate, might I encourage you to study Romans 12 and apply it to what has taken place on this thread. Take counsel in the directive to "recompense not evil for evil." The whole chapter, a mere 21 verses long, if filled with good counsel and multitudes of examples to what has taken place on this thread. If we all but read, ponder and apply such simple counsel - this thread would die into obscurity as it should.

I initially used the thread for a good purpose, to answer legitimate questions from sincere people who really wanted to know an answer to their question. It was a relief and a delight to have a mature conversation with these wonderful individuals. Now, however, they are not here because the spirit is no longer here. They felt the spirit and were comfortable in asking questions. Now that opposing forces have plundered the good intentions those good people no longer are here and feel not right in asking questions. This is a travesty and a disgrace. Why? Because their liberty has been stripped of them.

Regardless of what anyone believes, this is a matter of deep importance because it affects the lives and feelings of people who are having hard times in their life. If they have a question, they have a right to receive an answer even if it's an answer none of you agree with or even they agree with. To trample on a thread in such a manner is a haneous action against those who are suffering in such a manner.

Here we have pictures exhibiting light-hearted feelings and pictures showing true natures. So much can be seen in a picture. In my picture, I am ugly and have a big nose. Cool, that's fine as it's who I am. I seek not to deceive in the eyes of others who I am. I am as you see me. True colors become manifest in the pictures we use and the words we utilize in our posts. As in Romans, seek not to destroy but to edify and create peace.
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  Timothy Donnellyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Buddy, I appreciate what you are saying, and I do agree that it is correct, but as far as tolerance goes, I draw the line in jealousy, as and like unto the originator of Holy Writ.
  Besides, ain't nobody gunna poke me! (Sorry to the ones that have had to bear it).
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  In the tribe of Yowie there will be no unconsented-to pokings. There will also be no 'marrying' of the under-age.
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Pandoras Boxposted 15 years ago
The Adversary has visited itself upon us, bringing with it many false accusations, striving to stir up contention among us.

I have prayed to the Great Yowie, and a visitation from the Angel of the Swamp has been my reward. The Angel has spoken to me, with great words of Love and Peace.

There is a time, it has been said, when men will set themselves on high, striving to be gods they will pretend they are not men, and many putrid things will flow from their orifices. Howsoever the time will come, when such false prophets will be rocked from their self-appointed thrones, and all things false will be shone to be so. First on this side, and then on another, first here, then there, first one man, then two, then three, first this group, and then that, till all men have come to see the fraudulence and petulance of such who claim to speak on behalf of Truth but know it not.

The Divine Angel has told me in the clearest, most purest tones of heavenly discourse, that in the time betwixt times, when these self-righteous minions of the Adversary do appear, when they would seek to darken our light with their humorless naysayings, when they thrust their densenesses among us, the Divine Angel of the Swamp has spoken, has granted an oracle of pure heavenly wisdom, has delivered a witness of honest, unadulterated sagacity, that my path be for now, as directed always by the Great Yowie, who resides in the heart of the head and in the mind of the heart, and the Word spoken to me, and confirmed by my spiritual witness, in regards to this deluded messenger of the Adversary, to just -in short and with all the directness of the One True God- "Ignore the dumbass!"

The Angel has spoken its message for me. Let it be so. Ahem.
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goldenpathposted 15 years ago
And yet, they continue to respond.

Have a great evening all and a wonderful dance.
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  Timothy Donnellyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  With all this silliness and sarcasm on this forum, one would wonder how any truth is shone/shown/revealed, but I believe that this can just be interpreted as an example of the drudgeries and trials of faith that we must all endure. Heaven knows that I have endured a lot of drudgery. Remember also that the angels of heaven will celebrate when even one soul repents! That reminds me of the record of Jacob, chapter five, and the allegory of the vineyard. Therein are two of my favourite verses. One says Do not counsel the Lord, and the other truly pulls on my heart-strings where it says Jesus Wept (knowing that He WILL lose some souls to Satan's cunning). I declare that this is evident here too, but still worth a final tending.
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  Timothy Donnellyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Has anybody ever READ Jacob chapter five?
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Doesn't add up. He knew this before the world was made.
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  Timothy Donnellyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ok, it’s about an olive garden, not a vineyard. It can be found quickly at:
  http://www.scriptures.lds.org/en/jacob/5
  Its summation is:
  Jacob quotes Zenos relative to the allegory of the tame and wild olive trees—They are a likeness of Israel and the gentiles—The scattering and gathering of Israel are prefigured—Allusions are made to the Nephites and Lamanites and all the house of Israel—Gentiles shall be grafted into Israel—Eventually the vineyard shall be burned. Between 544 and 421 B.C.
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry Tim, but the novel Smith wrote doesn't mean anything to me. Nothing personal, so don't go all GP on me and cast a curse such as " may all of your babies be born naked" or something of that order.
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  aguasilverposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  John 17:11-13
  
  11I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one. 12While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. 13"I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them.
  
  My bible tells me that only ONE soul was lost.
  
  John
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  Timothy Donnellyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, well, I see that you have come to ONE part. How about all the OTHER parts? Like were the unfruitful shall be hewn down, or the story of the lepers, where only one acknowledges and thanks the Lord, or the story of the talents, or, or, or ... just wait until the harvest and see if you are right sticking with one part and not the others. Remember also that many are called but few are chosen, and the story about how narrow is the gate that leadeth to eternal life, etc. etc. etc.
  Does your Bible also not record those ideas? I know it is sometimes difficult to reconcile one scripture to another, that is one reason why it is so important to have a companion testifier, to NAIL that Good Book down so that it cannot be spun and spun and spun, creating contention (to some who choose to take offence, and others who relish in it). Rather Another Testament of Jesus Christ is just what the Master Physician ordered.
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Why not have many of them, each different from the other? Oh, that's right we already have them.
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  Timothy Donnellyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Correct. We already have them. Some contradict and deny, while at least one that I know of supports, and edifies the Bible. Can you GUESS which one that might be?
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The Torah, of course!
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  Timothy Donnellyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Nice try Randy, the Torah is an important book too. Did you know that the Torah consists of the Mosaic gospel, which is the first five books of the Old Testament. Anything additional I am not aware of.
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Of course I knew that, Tim. Are you aware that many of the myths Moses claimed God gave him were just plagiarized from former "gods"?
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  Timothy Donnellyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Randy, I wish you would email me so that I can send you that scholarly slide show of the Red Sea Parting. I cannot post it here or else I would. It is very intriguing. It includes physical and political evidences of the actual occurrence, demonstrating that it was VERY POSSIBLE, and QUITE BELIEVABLE. Whether a miracle by God, invocated by Moses, is a matter of faith, but in this instance, there is some very compelling evidence that is VERY LIKELY to have happened.
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks, but no thanks,Tim. Believe it or not, I have researched much about the Bible, all of them.
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Randy Godwinposted 15 years ago
They can dish it out but they can't take it
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Pandoras Boxposted 15 years ago
Brother Randy, for the accuracy of your prophetic predictions I hereby call you to serve as First Prophet...

'Nite all, I've got a hub to write.
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Take that, Hokey! I predict the priest will not respect this prophet's revelations any more than than I do his!
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Randy Godwinposted 15 years ago
I think the priest is insulting our religion, PB. You said they would try to vilify the true faith.

Hey, I've got an idea! Why don't you act like you are just taking hits for your belief in the swamp god. You can boast of how kind and understanding you are and merely want to answer the questions of the heathens.

If you get caught lying just pretend to be a martyr for your followers. Didn't you learn this tactic in priestette training?

It's one of the first things taught! Just observe GP, see how hurt he acts. Now, work on that, you're embarrassing us
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Nay, brother Randy. The role of weasle-in-chief is not befitting to a religion of our uncommon integrity.
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What? Are you suggesting we use the truth to sway our followers? Unheard of! It just isn't done!
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Randy Godwinposted 15 years ago
Crash time for me, being a prophet is hard work. Either that or the concubines are taking their toll. Later on.
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Timothy Donnellyposted 15 years ago
Well, since I'm still alive, let me post this, which is sure to be as contoversial as anything that realises the truth hurts (or, in my defense, it's just a pruning, so calm down):

“Seventeen Points of the True Church”
Does yours meet the Test?

1. Christ organized the Church. Ephesians 4:11-14

2. The True Church must bear the name of Jesus Christ. Ephesians 5:23

3. The True Church must have a foundation of Apostles and Prophets. Ephesians 2:19-20

4. The True Church must have the same organization as Christ’s Church. Ephesians 4:11-14

5. The True Church must claim divine authority. Hebrews 5:4-10

6. The True Church must have no paid ministry. Isaiah 45:13, Peter 5:2

7. The True Church must baptize by immersion. Matthew 3:13-16

8. The True Church must bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. Acts 8:14-17

9. The True Church must practice divine healing. Mark 3:14-15

10. The True Church must teach that God and Jesus are separate and distinct individuals. John 17:11, and John 20:17

11. The True Church must teach that God and Jesus have bodies of flesh and bone. Luke 24:36-39 and Acts 1:9-11

12. The officers must be called of God. Hebrews 5:4, Exodus 28:1, and Exodus 40:13-16

13. The True Church must claim revelation from God. Amos 3:7

14. The True Church must be a missionary church. Matthew 28:19-20

15. The True Church must be a restored church. Acts 3:19-20

16. The true Church must practice baptism for the dead. 1 Corinthians 15:16 and 29

17. By their fruits ye shall know them. Mathew 7:20

Why are these things important? Hebrews 13:8

END.
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Iron clad. The rest of the world should be converted by morning.
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
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  jpop13posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  A Catholic Faith you have described.
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  StormRyderposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  Well we have been seeing many of their fruits on the threads as of late.
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
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iantoPFposted 15 years ago
I have not been critical or condemning of anyone here I find Timothy and Sneaky to be sound people and sincere. I have no desire to attempt to influence anyone away from a place that gives them comfort. but our man GoldenPath is a big disappointment.
Early in this thread he spoke of the worth of Mormons. he said that he has personal experience of non-mormon employers calling him asking for people he can refer because they want to employ mormons. Then he goes on to say that they are the most persecuted people on earth. Say that to Blacks and Hispanics who can't get work. Lot of other examples of him contradicting himself. I'm also far from impressed with his last post where he states that he started this thread to answer honest questions. He has never answered mine. Timothy has and sneaky tried but when I asked about the Pentecostal beginnings of mormon congregations he simply said it didn't happen. Even when I pointed out that the official historian of the LDS church, Apostle Brigham H. Roberts, documented it he just went quiet. Nothing to say about the hard questions.
I would not be disrespectful but I do have questions. I haven't even started on the doctrine of Blood Atonement. Unfortunately I have no way of asking these questions because our resident expert backs off. It seems all he can do is whine about persecutions that ended 100 years ago and use that as an excuse to avoid real questioning.
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  foreignpressposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  This is incredulous! Never have I seen such premeditated blasphemy! Nobody is an expert on every aspect of a religion regardless of their intent. I consider myself Christian, yet there are times when people ask me questions that only God knows the answers to. So when I cannot supply a ready answer I am denounced as a heretic and a snake oil drummer! The "inquiring minds" then walk away gloating that they have "caught me in a lie." If you indeed seek answers to the impossible, then have the temerity to study the subject in some depth first before expecting the instant gratification of a forum such as this. Keep in mind we are dealing with an issue that is not only spiritual but supernatural. In that respect anything is possible. Either you believe or you do not. I firmly believe that there are spiritual powers at work on this planet, and that some day these forces will unleash a firestorm of holy governance that will make the worst natural disaster seem like a breath of fresh air. Everybody has questions -- none of us has all the answers. If we did, then we would be sitting at the right hand of God Almighty!
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  Flightkeeperposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You must have known that people who ask you questions that didn't do their preliminary research aren't serious about getting an answer.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No one asked him a Kwestion sweetie pie. He joined up to tell us how it is.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Did he? I noticed another who joined merely for the purpose of defending the priest on this and one other thread. Haven't seen much from the OP guy either. It all makes you wonder.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I suppose this must be the unwarranted persecution (nailing to a cross and dancing with no real cause) they keep on bleating on about (never mention). What happened to the priest (parasite) any way?
  
  He keeps making an attack (showing tolerance) and then going off to summon reinforcements (study from the best books available).
  
  Or something.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I like your new avatar.
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  (Q)posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hello Don, I hope you read this one. Notice how believers do in fact claim that anything is possible with the supernatural?
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, and I hope Don read where I tried my very hardest to find common ground.
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ianto, what do you want to know about blood atonement, aside from the fact that one was never carried out by the Church?
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earnestshubposted 15 years ago
You may be sitting at the right hand of your god. I won't be sitting at the right hand of any god.
Give it away folks, the fairy in the sky can be argued about forever, cos it does not exist, nor the hundreds of gods that came before it.
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jpop13posted 15 years ago
I will ask all those that question the validity of the bible to research the Greek Manuscripts that date back to about 150-200 A.D. a full 150+ years before the counsol of Nicea. They describe the true christian practices and will show that the Bible is accurate to it. While researching said documents I realized some thing about my faith, Like I mentioned before, I was, well still am a Catholic and realized one thing. If we have such an infalible Text we must also have an infalible interpreter, Christ made it clear that the interpreter was to be the Holy Catholic Church, therefore taking away the spin factor Timothy talks about. As a matter of fact the apostles creed was also practiced before the counsel of Nicea and I will implore other Christians to look into the Christian catacombs, the oldest of which also trace their lineage further back then the bible, they will show that not only were the texts of the bible acurate but that the early christians also worshiped the Virgin Marry, not as a mediator for our sins but simply as the mother of our lord and savior.
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jpop13posted 15 years ago
O and if you think Mormons have it bad, early Catholics/christians had it worse, St. Peter was crusified upside down.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Still they got their own back huh. How many millions did they murder?
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Boy, he must have really pissed someone off! Probably his holier than thou attitude. You know how we hate those who do good things!
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  jpop13posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Who pissed who off?
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I would assume someone took umbrage to Peter's philosophy.
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  jpop13posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  There were many, after his death. The most famous early one would have to be Montanus in 170 AD around there.
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  jpop13posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Marcion of Pontus was another early heratic, he believed that the God of the Old Testament is a different God than that of the new, and that he is a vengeful God; he denied the inspiration of the Old Testament. Marcionites established a parallel church that survived for several centuries.
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jpop13posted 15 years ago
Dam it the more I'm, reading the more I realize that one true church is the Catholic faith, In the time of Christ, their was only one church, and today we have over 33,000 and alot of these churches also practice against the bible, which the RCC gave to the world, out of the Holy Spirit.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yup the Catholic church murdered all the others - including the ones that came before them.
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  jpop13posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Funny how St. Peter through the authority granted to him by Christ founded and established only the Catholic Church. But I will agree with you, after the consul of Nicea things went Old Testament style for a long while.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So - killing all opposition is the one true church huh?
  Sounds awesome.
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  jpop13posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not too sure if it was the actual Church or Rome it self doing the killing. Any ways be glad the early Catholic Church was able to maintain it self pure from the Arians. The church really got to power around 700 A.D. when the Goths were converted over from aranism.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Later history would indicate that it was definitely the church.
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  jpop13posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Not really, the early church just did'nt have the power to. Sure if you mention the church after lets say 800 A.D. when it had a strong presence in the empire.
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Jeramiposted 15 years ago
Timothy Donnelly wrote:
Oh, well, I see that you have come to ONE part. How about all the OTHER parts?

Jerami says ... Every one seems to do that.!!
people seem to pass over what I believe to be one of the most important scriptures...

While chastizing the scribes and Pharisees Jesus said th THEM ...
Matthew 23:35 "That upon you may come all the rightious blood shed upon the earth...." 23:36 Verily I say unto you all these things shall come upon this generation.
A few minutes later; In a private conversation with four of his disciples..
Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto "YOU" this generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled, but no one knows the day or hour.
I believe that when the Church teaches these statements the way that Jesus intended for them to be understood, there will continue to be confusion.

Jesus intended for us to understand these verses EXACTLY as he spoke them. Because that is not what the church wants to teach it has been mis-interpretated
This fact has lead to mass confusion concerning everything else that Jesus taught.
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  Timothy Donnellyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So then, do you suggest that only the RED print in the Bible, which directly came from Jesus is to be followed, and all the rest to be disregarded as merely interpretations? What happened to the mouthpieces of the Lord, or more specifically, his Prophets (which include but are not limited to His Apostles)?
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  Hokeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I think if you did this it would make more sense.
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  Jeramiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I would sudjest that if we call ourselves Christians and want to be seen as such; we should believe him first... and if anyone else preaches anything that contradicts his clearly spoken word, to not interpret the words of Jesus in a way as to agree with contrary teachings.
  It is written in YOUR and my scriptures, do just that.
  Interpret those teachings of the desiples to agree with the word of Christ.
  NOT the other way around.
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  Timothy Donnellyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you for clarifying. Point taken and agreed to, as far as it has been translted correctly. If there are any errors, let them be the errors of man and not of God.
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  Jeramiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you ... If we are to believe these clearly spoken words of Christ.... This would put a diffrent light upon everything that the Church has been teaching concerning Prophesy.
  These verses are prophetic scripture and 2nd Peter 1:20 says that we ARE NOT to apply personal interpretation to this prophetic scripture..
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  Jeramiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It seems that I can not find a Christian to truly examine these statements that Christ made directly to specific people in these chapters.
  He is talking about the Great Tribulation and his coming again (second coming). Jesus said that it was going to be in THAT generation.
  We have been programed to say that we believe in Jesus Christ and yet we disregard whatever part of his teachings that we deam necessary in order to hold onto CHURCH doctrine.
  Are we believing in HIM or the Church.
  Jesus said that there will be many false teachings and if anything that they teach contradicts his teachings ; we should disregard them.
  
  Lets begin with these things that Jesus said in these two chapters. Matt. 23 and 24
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  Mark O Richardsonposted 5 years agoin reply to this
  SO are parables always clear?
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jpop13posted 15 years ago
Some of the translations can be a bit confusing.
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  jpop13posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Like I had said before, the word Timshel in the old Testament, in the story of Cain and Able, that one word changes the entire context of the old testament .
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jpop13posted 15 years ago
172 AD Montanus launches his Montanist movement, based on his private revelations. He claimed that there was an age of the Father (the Old Testament), the Age of the Son (the New Testament) and the age of the Holy Spirit, which he would inaugurate and which would announce the end of the world. It denied the divine nature of the Church and preached a very rigorous morality. I believe that this is the Guy that inspired Joseph Smith, notice the rigorous morality and the announcement of the end of the days.
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Hokeyposted 15 years ago
Just on a personal note I don't like the idea that my only chance for salvation and/or eternal life is through HUMAN sacrifice. Seems pretty dark for a concept that is supposed to be about love, compassion, tolerance, generosity etc.........
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  jpop13posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It was the ultimate act of love, compassion and generosity, I too have thought about it. You see it's like it saids in the Bible, God loves man so much that he gave us his only son, however the Trinity would state that Jesus was God in the flesh, so God really gave him self for us and if God is eternal it really was'nt a human sacrifice, but rather a spiritual one.
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  Hokeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It doesn't say trinity in the bible. That is a man made interpretation
  
  They always stress that Jesus was a man. Human sacrifice
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  jpop13posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  "Trinity" is a term that is not found in the Bible but a word used to describe what is apparent about God in the Scriptures. The Bible clearly speaks of God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit...and also clearly presents that there is only one God. Jesus said: "I and the Father are one." (John 10:30)
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  Hokeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah but when it says they are one that could mean that they acted as one. When a man and woman are married they are said to be one. One means unity of purpose. The bible doesn't clarify this. If you were to follow the exact words of the bible it states that there are 3 Gods acting as one. To claim that they are three manifestations of the same spirit is a man made assumption. Why would Jesus on earth look to heaven and ask "Father why hast thou forsaken me?" Why would God talk to himself?.
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  jpop13posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  B/c Jesus was asking him self a question, have you not ever looked up and asked your self a question? "He who has seen Me has seen the Father." (John 14:9)
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  jpop13posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" (Deut. 6:4)
  
  "I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God." (Isa. 45:5)
  
  There is no God but one. (1Cor. 8:4)
  
  This would meen that if Christ claimed to be the King of All Kings and that his Kingdom is in heaven he would have to be God as well, for their is only one.
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  Mark O Richardsonposted 5 years agoin reply to this
  Hokey-
  Amen. God and Jesus Christ are separate beings.
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theirishobserver.posted 15 years ago
I thought this was a question about Morons sorry wrong thread
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  Hokeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I think it was Hijacked. I mean really how long can you talk about just mormons?
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No, I think you have the right place..
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Jeramiposted 15 years ago
to do anything else is to call Christ a liar
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  jpop13posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The answer is that Jesus can do anything. Christ promised to guide and protect his Church and to send the Holy Spirit to lead it into all truth. (Mat 16:18-19, 18:18, 28:20; Jn 14:16, 25, 16:13). The Holy Spirit guided the Church when it decided which books were to be included in the Bible. That was an infallible decision. Praise God!
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  Hokeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Infallible? It was a man made decision.
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  jpop13posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Again guided through the Holy Spirit, Jesus him self promised to guide his Flock through it, and are you going to say that the most important part of Christian History, besides the Life of Christ, was not going to be quided by the Holy Spirit its self to truth? Had it not been for this we would have all sorts of things like the Apacrathia and what not.
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  Hokeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  This points to my whole problem with the bible. Anyone can write a book and say it was inspired by God. Faith without any evidence is blind. Blind faith in something man made is insanity.
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  jpop13posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Again go read the bible I just told you what Christ said concerning the matter. (Mat 16:18-19, 18:18, 28:20; Jn 14:16, 25, 16:13). Also if you think Constantine messed around with the bible to use it for his own purpose remember that he did not actually become a Christian until he was an old man on his death bed. That was when he was baptised and professed that Jesus is Lord. During his life he did not surrender to Christ. He simply changed the law so that is was no longer illegal to be a Christian.
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  jpop13posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  and despite popular belief he was not the one to coin the phrase Catholic.
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  Mark O Richardsonposted 5 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think you can convince atheists that there is a God just by quoting the Bible.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You keep referring to this apacrathia. What is it, please?
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  jpop13posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Just for get about it, it really spelled apocrypha means hidden or concealed, but after c. 450 A.D. came to refer to the non-canonical books, especially those of the Old Testament period. Its really weird and I'm still reading up on some of them so its some thing I can really mention until I get through studing and interpreting them my self.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Do you want to borrow my Magic Rock?
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  jpop13posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I just might, I'm getting an awefull head ache.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I will send you a blessed handkerchief.
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  jpop13posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  lol.
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  jpop13posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hey I already have a higher Hub score then you! Blessed be the lord.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It varies. Mine will go back up, and your's will continue to go down. The Divine Angel told me so. So be it. Praise Yowie!
  
  Ahem.
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  jpop13posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Why does it vary?
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Phases of the moon...
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  jpop13posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I thought you were going to say phases of the mormon lol.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ahem.
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  Hokeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  See what happens? I ask serious questions and get ignored. Joke time?
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Not I, I have work to do today. Besides, mormons seem to have no sense of humor.
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  Hokeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Very wise woman with very beautiful picture. Maybe I worship you and call it a day. All hail Godde$$ Pandora!!!
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  She is a goddess, I understand. I am but a lowly priestess, called to preach the Word of Yowie and bear the persecutions of the unenlightened.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  And thank you..
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  Hokeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Do you have a book?
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well I translated the rusty tin plates that the Divine Angel of the Swamp helped me find with my divining rod, and they just said "Iffest thou needest a book, then thou ist lostest indeed."
  
  But yer in charge of doctrine, so just make it up as you go along. Wanna borrow the Magic Rock?
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  Timothy Donnellyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hey, what about me? I'm only a moron sometimes, notwithstanding my being a Baptized Mormon, of my own volition.
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  jpop13posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  LOL, sometimes.
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jpop13posted 15 years ago
Yeah its hard to talk about Momonism for so LONG.
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  jpop13posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Also b/c the same questions get asked over and over and over.
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Cagsilposted 15 years ago
The Christ of the Bible is based on Jesus' work. However, if you understood Jesus' work, then you would understand there is to be a separation between Jesus' work and Religious scripture.

For the simple fact that Jesus' teachings were NOT religious to begin with. And, had you known that, then you wouldn't be ranting or raving about what you think you know about the pathetic bible and it's made up "GOD" concept.

If you understood the historical times and the primitive language Jesus' work consisted of, then you would see Religion's "GOD" concept as meaningless, useless and/or false, like Jesus said.

However, those who are believers of whichever tale of religion, you've been duped.
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  jpop13posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  (Mat 16:18-19, 18:18, 28:20; Jn 14:16, 25, 16:13). Please read these things that Christ said then get back to me.
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iantoPFposted 15 years ago
Well!! Can't believe the vitriol. All I'm doing is asking a question on Mormon history and requiring honesty in the reply. goldenPath said the church has always been the same and has not changed.

"....my wife...was waiting for me, and she started to lecture me, saying that I was breaking the Word of Wisdom. She suddenly stopped, and by the gift of tongues she gave me a most remarkable and wonderful blessing and promised me that I should live to pay off all my debts, which I did live to do....Unless the gift of tongues and the interpretation thereof are enjoyed by the Saints in our day, then we are lacking one of the evidences of the true faith. [Young Woman's Journal], 16:128. (Gospel Standards, page 11-12 by President Heber J. Grant)

'In Sacred Loneliness - The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith', by Todd Compton.

"The supernatural--revelations, prophecy fulfilled; miraculous healings and glossolilia; visitations from dead relatives, from angels, from demonic spirits, and from the Three Nephites--comprise a major element of nineteenth-century Mormon writings."

I could go on but my research into Latter-Day saint History does not tell me why the church changed. I had hoped I could be enlightened but I guess this is not the place to look. I rarely visit the forums and I have posted more here than anywhere else. I accept and respect those who say they do not know. how can I take seriously those who comment or answer without looking carefully at the question?
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  Timothy Donnellyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  iantoPF, let me take a stab at this. I believe it is found in COrinthians where it talks of measures of the Spirit, ie: to some were given phrophets, to others revelators, etc., but all of these from the self same spirit. Perhaps, that Spirit has not divied up any of the gift of tongues for a spell. Also, we believe D&C 130: 20-21 "There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated— And when we obtain any ablessing from God, it is by bobedience to that law upon which it is predicated."
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  Timothy Donnellyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  1 Corinthians 12: 7-11
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  iantoPFposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  Thank you Timothy. This is an answer we could sensibly discuss. How the gifts of the spirit are gifts and therefore predicated upon the will of the giver. A very sensible reply and I thank you for it.
  Due to the behavior of another on this forum I asked in other places, my curiosity doesn't allow me to rest once it gets me, the answers I got were very interesting.
  For one thing, the Pentecostal movement did not begin until around 1910 so the latter-Day Saint experience pre-dates the Pentecostal movement itself. The other thing you may not be aware of is that there is a certain debate taking place right now amongst the leadership of the church in favor of a revival of that side of the Mormon experience. It has been pointed out that the church will not make serious progress in Africa unless the ecstatic experience is once again permitted in the church.
  It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I must interject. The Church has never and will never use the term "revival" as a practice of the Latter-day Saints. It's just nothing worth attempting. The source of your information is incorrect. In fact, we openly teach that such practices are not of God.
  
  Africa. The Church's presence in Africa is huge. We are constantly building up water supplies and tending to the medically needy. Not only that, but by and large the African membership have taken on the spirit of self reliance and have facilitated many of the projects themselves. The Church's presence in this blessed continent has never been stronger.
  
  Your statement hints that the leadership senses a cataclysmic drop in membership in support of a "revival". All faiths are experiencing drops here and there in their memberships. The Church continues to be strong as self reliant. The faithful membership continues to grow and be stronger. At the same time those that have dissented continue to have their hearts hardened and seek to destroy the faith.
  
  Believe me, as a member and leader in this Church revivals are just not a part of our culture or even common terminology. In fact, many consider us boring because of our conservative nature. We dwell and relish in reverence and modesty. We relentlessly teach virtue and not bringing attention to oneself.
  
  Please, if you want actual facts and updates on the Church go their official website. It is folly on anyone's part to accept information outside official channels. It is second and third hand and will only serve to provide disinformation. Study and get your information from lds(dot)org.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ahem.
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  iantoPFposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  I must admit I find it dificult to debate with you because your method of argument is to "Read" into what people say rather than accept at face value what is being said. For example; if I wish to say that the church expects a cataclysmic drop in membership anywhere I would say so. I did not and do not. I'm a pretty straightforward guy so please quote me, critcize what I say, argue with me, but do not attribute to me words that I have not used.
  Unfortunately your arguments throughout this thread have been representative of your feelings rather than fact. You also continously refer to your standing in the church as though it gives you some superior knowledge. So let me give you some sources to explain why the early church pre dated the pentecostal movement with pentecostal meetings of their own;
  
  Articles of Faith
  
  7 We believe in the agift of btongues, cprophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
  
  2 Nephi Chapter 31 v13
  Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel.
  
  Doctrine and Covenants sec. 109 v36
  Let it be fulfilled upon them, as upon those on the day of Pentecost; let the gift of tongues be poured out upon thy people, even cloven tongues as of fire, and the interpretation thereof.
  
  I have already quoted early members of the church, including Heber J. Grant professing these things.
  Lds.org. gives what the church wants people to know at this time, of course it does not speak of internal debates or the various views held by the church leaders on such topics as this.
  
  Finally; one more point. This thread was began with the question "What do you know about the Mormons?" You and I know that this is the first of the two questions that the missionaries ask. Regardless of the answer to the first, the next question is; "Would you like to know more?'
  Well, I would. I am not a follower, nor do I look particularly favorably on the Hebrew God. But I do want to know more. I respect those who make an honest effort to answer honest questions.
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I confess myself at a loss. Please expand on how the excerpts you've provided coincide with the Church planning and advocating a "revival." Sure, we believe in the gift of tongues, but not in the way that common Christianity sees it. The terms you point out are valid ones, however, please understand that we view and interpret these terms very differently than the rest of the world. They should in no way be taken as common modern Christianity would take it. I believe the term revival differs between you and I. Perhaps this is the sticking point.
  
  To me a revival is an organized event which advocates membership and teeters on the edge of insanity. I have seen revivals at other faiths. I've seen literal rolling in the aisles, hands waving in the air, seizures and all manner of actions that I deem foul and contrary to the will and nature of God. However, I respect their agency and freedom to exhibit such. The mainstream Latter-day Saint faith has no such history and will not as we feel this "conjuring" of the "spirit" is a contrary practice.
  
  I am truly sorry if I offended you on interpreting your remarks earlier. It was not intended to offend. I was only trying to determine your sources relating to a Churchwide onset of a "revival." I must have misunderstood and I'm sorry.
  
  As far as your remarks regarding my comments. It is true, my remarks are based largely on feelings. Why? When there are people who purposely put you up against the ropes and you know in your heart that it should not be, it is my reaction to continue to try explaining the need of understanding and tolerance. People die over the lack of these virtues, and so, in expressing my heartfelt desire for all to exhibit this qualities I tend to illustrate my feelings in my posts. I could easily put more meat into my posts, but it would be for not because unless one is willing to put into action these virtues, they will not be ready to receive information. So, to continue to post doctrine for those who have no desire of peace would be a mishandling of the sacred nature of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
  
  As far as the "superiority" I exhibit. I understand how that may come across. However, with the many accusations floating about, I just want everyone to know that as far as money is concerned, I have worked for the Church for many years and know, first hand, where every penny goes. No "evidence" of other internet sites or second and third hand information can change my actual knowledge of the finances of the Church and the sacred nature of the tithes and offerings of the faithful membership. Because of the solemn calling I have been set apart to discharge the duties thereof, my strivings for the seeking of good virtues in people is magnified and expanded. I have a deep respect and love for every human life on the planet and view them as literal brothers and sisters. Even those who vehemently oppose me and the doctrines I practice. I consider it my duty and responsibility, above that of preaching the Church doctrines, to exhort all to instill understanding and tolerance within their heart and soul for the benefit and furthering of peace. This is my aim, agenda and who I am.
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  (Q)posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  "I am not a criminal!" ~~ Nixon
  
  Utah has not only become the leader in the nation for bankruptcies, it is also numero uno in mental depression. In fact, the majority of cases for depression originates from LDS members. It has also been found that the LDS church ministers are the ones at fault.
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  Mark O Richardsonposted 5 years agoin reply to this
  In my opinion and from what I've seen, I think a lot of the bankruptcies have come from many rushing into marriage and having kids very quickly. Also, getting into debt (like the rest of the country). Debt leads to depression. It can affect spirituality.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  iantoPF said:
  
  In the early days of the church the Latter-day Saints were very Pentecostal in belief and practices. Their meetings had prophecy, speaking in tongues, miracolous healings and all the other actions associated with the Charismatic movement. This side of early Mormonism is no longer evident. Why?
  
  Goldenpath replied:
  
  They were never pentacostal and hardly charismatic. They were solemn, reverent and humble. Revelation continues today as it did then. Healings take place as well, but in private and not for public display. The Church remains the same.
  
  iantoPF responded:
  
  Could I trouble you to look at Brigham H. Roberts "History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" He mentions this part of the early church especially the Kirkland gatherings. The Mormon charismatic tradition carried on through Nauvoo and into Utah. When Joseph Fielding Smith abridged the work he left out those references. I have never had a satisfactory explanation of what happened or why that part of Mormon practice ceased.
  
  Goldenpath declined to reply.
  
  I would submit iantoPF, that the mormon religion has always been about attracting followers for the purpose of gaining money, prestige and power. As such it has repeatedly adapted to survive. In the beginning the practices you mentioned in your posts were useful. Eventually they became detrimental to the survival of the church and were eliminated.
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  Mark O Richardsonposted 5 years agoin reply to this
  In my opinion, the Pentecostal beginning would be from people who had joined from that background. The same thing happened with the early Christians, hence the Epistles of Paul.
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  iantoPFposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  First; Thank you for your reply. I would much prefer civilized discourse.
  The passages I referred to only seem to indicate that the Mormon church had a Pentecostal type beginning. I can provide no documentation to support my point that the church is planning a revival, in particular in Afrca as a way to increase conversion, without such documentation I will let the matter rest. It will unfold one way or the other.
  The main difference between our styles here in this forum is that I do try to present documentary evidence for my claims. The scriptures and the statements I have quoted all point to the early Mormons having that ecstatic experience that you find so distasteful.
  You mention revivalist meetings as not being a part of the Church yet, I am from the UK, you must know that a large number of the early converts came from that island, many from Wales. Are you not aware that people were converted at the meetings? that the speakers would leave the meeting to lead people to the sea or a river and baptise them then and there? Those meetings were very pentecostal with all the thrashing about typical of the ecstatic experience.
  Unfortunately I am not in Wales right now and am unable to provide documentation to support what I say, but that evidence is there if you care to look.
  As for feelings, if you are discussing purely on what you believe to be true then you must not be surprised at receiving ridicule. The people on this site generally prefer assertions to be supported in a more academic debate.
  So, I have provided evidence that seems to support my assertion that the pentecostal experience was part of the history of the early church and was actively participated in by church leaders.
  Can you provide documented evidence to show that it was never a part of the Church and that it never will be again?
  That would be an academic debate that could be respected.
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Unfortunately we will have to let the matter rest. Although, I have been in and handled the records of the Church kept safe in the Granite Mountain Vault, I cannot readily acquire them for proof or for you to examine. For that, I am sorry. However, I still think the terms differ.
  
  Missionary work has changed little since it's beginning. Yes, when our missionaries were abroad they did often preach on the street and on corners. They led and officially started congregations. However, I do submit and hold to the fact that they did no such writhing about, quaking or vomiting of blood. OK, that last part was a little much. The point is that missionary work, we feel, is led by the "quiet" spirit. The spirit of God is not something to be "conjured" up through dancing or choreography. Missionaries rely heavily of the quiet discourse of the gospel in their teachings of the people. I respectfully differ, and am sorry, but the information you might be able to prove regarding this type of activity is inaccurate or misinterpreted.
  
  As long as we can both respectfully differ, than we can both claim neutral ground and have a cordial "handshake", if you will, concerning the matter.
  
  In fact, Joseph Smith was greatly affected by these revivals. As a young boy he attended several from various denominations and became confused.
  "I attended their several meetings as often as occasion would permit....It was impossible for a person young as I was, and so unacquainted with men and things, to come to any certain conclusion who was right and who was wrong."
  "My intimate acquaintance with those of different denominations led me to marvel exceedingly, for I discovered that they did not adorn their profession by a holy walk and Godly conversation agreeable to what I found contained in that sacred depository {the holy scriptures}. This was a grief to my soul."
  
  In affect, this is part of what led Joseph to pray, aside from pondering James 1:5, directly to Father for guidance. Since the beginning he taught the proper execution of missionary work. Being hypocritally zealous is not a Godly walk. Being true to oneself and of genuine integrity, is what he taught and instructed the brethren and sisters of the Church.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  He asked directly about speaking in tongues and prophecy, not writhing about, quaking or vomiting of blood.
  
  It's good of you however to finally admit the truth, in a round about way, that yes indeed, speaking in tongues and prophecy were a big part of the original church of christ.
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  There's no "gotcha" there. I'm not sure why people continue to attempt such folly, but whatever trips their trigger. What's this "early church" stuff? Prophecy, continuing prophecy, is a prevalent part of the structure of the Church. It was there at the beginning and it is there now. Speaking in tongues? We have thousands of people out there, right now, utilizing this gift given to them of God. It is exercised when a nineteen-year-old young man from the middle of America is taught to be fluent in the Chinese language in just a few short weeks. It is exercised when a missionary goes into the training center in Israel to learn how to communicate with the Spanish speaking people in Los Angeles where he is called to serve his mission. It is exercised when a man or woman receives their special blessings according to their specific spirit identity. All these existed at the beginning and exist today. There's no "finally admit" to it. I proclaim it, I celebrate it, for He is an unchangeable God. What existed in the primitive Church exists in the modern Church.
  
  There's no need to mince words. There is nothing to hide, whatsoever, in the LDS faith regardless of what people may scew or slander. We hold things as sacred, not secret. There is a huge difference.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Good morning, preacher. How are you today? All is good with you I hope.
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Alot of people think that speaking in tongues is when sombody starts babbling incessently.
  This type of communication is one that should only happen in the presence of an interperter so it is without a doubt the thing that it proposes to be.
  There are, as you said, other forms of speaking in tongues.
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  Hokeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Interpreter?
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Speaking and interpreting, but no gift of spelling.
  
  I don't believe in any of the kinds of tongues, not angelic, nor diverse. I think it's all bull doo-doo.
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes in 1 Corinthians 12:10 it shows how this spiritual gift is to be received. And one of those requirements is to have an interpreter present. Some people seem to overlook this fact.
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  Hokeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So you are saying these spoken tongues are an actual language and you have people that know this language?
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Keep in mind, though, that the Adversary also has many abilities to mimick many gifts. God would not present words unto someone that is not understood. It goes against the agency of man and their freedom to choose. When certain gifts and talents are employed by the Lord they are always for a purpose and not for show or boastful attention. This is where we differ. He shall not be mocked. His gifts are not useless flatteries but rather sacred tools for specific missions and purposes. Intelligible babble is counter to the agency of man and there for must come from an alternate source. The overwhelming vast amount of His dealings with man appear everyday in the "normal" display of time and life. They are overlooked. If I were presented with a young man entering a mission field, having to learn the Vietnamese language in a very short amount of time, and a person speaking in an "unknown" language during some session of babble, I would easily choose the first as the true miracle of God because it has a purpose, and it is the work most readily overlooked by modern society as a miracle of God.
  
  I accept and respect your thought on the matter, and for the most part we both agree. However, in one little part, we do not. This is fine, though. We can respectfully agree to disagree. That's the beauty of agency and the freedom to choose your beliefs.
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No, "my people" do not know the language, and there are many languages which people are given the power to speak, (French, Italian, Spanish etc.) but if we are to believe that a person is speaking in a different language by the power of the Holy Spirit, what does it benifite anyone if there is no interpretation of whats being said?
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  Hokeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  How can you interpret a language that you just admitted you don't know?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  He doesn't and I am pretty sure none of these afflicted with the speaking in tongues speak French or Italian. They just speak gibberish.
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  By the power of the Holy Spirit, ofcourse.
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  Hokeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Are you serious? That's all you have? This is a waste of time. You just lost me. I was being polite and seriously inquisitive and then you pull this. My problem with this is that whenever any of you can't answer a question you pull this instead of just saying I don't know. I would have way more respect for that answer. Not magic.
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  BDazzlerposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Serious, hopefully polite, question... would you be more ok with an answer like, "Personal intuition and satisfaction"?
  
  The reason I ask is that we all have something like that, that satisfies some "inner need". (Yours appears to be Buddha) What I consider "Holy Spirit" and what Onusonus and Golden Path consider "Holy Spirit", seem utterly at odds with one another, at least on the surface.
  
  So, while I can tell you I'm satisfied with a definition of the Holy Spirit that matches my needs, experiences, life path etc. I can't agree with them on their definition of what "The Holy Spirit" means.
  
  Yet, we both use the same words to describe what are different experiences, and obviously, at some level, (and maybe completely) subjective.
  
  And yes, I can see how from your point of view, Magic is just as good a word for it.
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Okiedokie.
  And you thought I was the beligerant one.
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Bdazzler, I agree with your sentiment in the spirit of getting along, but just out of curiosity, how differently do you interpret the gifts of the Holy Spirit?
  Or are you talking about the relationship of the Godhead?
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  BDazzlerposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry for the delay ... I wrote a whole long thing, realized it was out of hand ... so I closed my browser and started over.
  
  Short version, my experience is a bit more "supernatural" than what you guys have said here. I've seen and experienced "genuine" miracles and giftings with no other known explanations. The charismatic/evangelical interpretation of these events is most satisfactory to me.
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  Mark O Richardsonposted 5 years agoin reply to this
  Onusonus-
  Amen about the speaking in tongues.
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  (Q)posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Do you have an evidence for this claim or did you just make that up?
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Rosetta Stone.
  Big deal.
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ok, I'll break the silence between you and I. Respectfully, can you explain your question in more detail?
  
  Our young missionaries enter the MTC (Missionary Training Center). Here they are taught national laws, cultures, approaches, doctrines and other things they need to serve in whatever nation they are called to serve. My earlier comment was aimed to the fact that even a young man of simple means and life can enter the MTC, and within a few short weeks either become fluent or at least have enough language knowledge to carry a conversation with someone in that country they are serving in. For many this may seem small, but for the missionary it is a true miracle. This is one manifestation of the gift of "speaking in tongues."
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  Timothy Donnellyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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  Timothy Donnellyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  In other words a marketing spiel was developed and strictly adhered to. Good business thinking.
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  (Q)posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  We have already found you to be incorrect and have had to provide evidence to demonstrate you were wrong.
  
  And, that's really what it's all about; recruitment. You do the things you do to bring in more money so your church can buy or build. The LDS has spent 15 times the amount on a shopping mall than it does to feed the poor, less than 1% of the total income.
  
  No, they are actually coming out because they've been abused by the LDS, their stories are plastered all over the internet.
  
  You build towers at a cost of $3 billion in a time of recession, you buy shopping malls and cattle ranches, you build hotels in Hawaii, you spend 20 times more on real estate than you do on helping the poor. That is not reverence or modesty.
  
  No, it is folly to accept information from you.
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  iantoPFposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  And what about mine?
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StormRyderposted 15 years ago
I can tell you what I don't know about them! I don't know how this thread about them is still racking up responses???

They can't be this interesting??...can they???
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  How a con man manipulates his "marks" is always interesting. Otherwise intelligent people are brainwashed into accepting things common sense denies. Jim Jones, kool-aid. Cotton Mather, witch burning. Oral Roberts, fake healer. Blind, leading the blind faith!
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  sneakorocksolidposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No it's that we baffel the booze,joint and weird sex crowd.
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  StormRyderposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Weird sex??? Wheres that room at?? I got to see this!!
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  sneakorocksolidposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I know! I know! It sounded odd but it's all I got!
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You must first become a priest or prophet!
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  StormRyderposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  If I do does that mean I can't partake in the weird sex??
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  sneakorocksolidposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  Sorry you can't be a priest or prophet. You can make cookies and we would love you for it!
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  StormRyderposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'm great at cookies!!! Lucky for all the stoners!!
  
  But still I would like some sex too...
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Luckily, we just started our new religion and Hokey won't return 2 of my 40 alloted concubines, so, what kind of cookies can you make?
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  StormRyderposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  My specialty is white chocolate and macadamia nut cookies, but I can do about anything...I'm flexible....really I am!
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  thisisoliposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That sentence just made my night. :p
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  StormRyderposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Oli....what are you thinking???
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  thisisoliposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I missed dinner
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Oh that's my absolute favorite. Well, it's a toss-up between that and peanut butter. Somebody see if we can convert her away from the mormons.
  
  BTW, I did learn something new about mormons today. One of them wrote a hub. Turns out Thomas Jefferson predicted the mormon religion would rise up and restore the one true faith.
  
  Don't know how the heck they reconcile that with all the other stuff Jefferson had to say about Jesus, religion, and bullshit.
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Truth isn't important to the Mormons. Faith is the thing!
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well, I guess it would be okay. But you better not be lying about those cookies or you won't stay around longer than 10 or 15 years!
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Of course not, you will be married to a Mormon.
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  sneakorocksolidposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What about the cookies?
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Surely one of your wives can make cookies.
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  Obscurely Diverseposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Weird sex? What in the hell is that? Nah... I'll take an order of daily caveman sex for Monday through Saturday, with a side order of kinky sex for Sunday! Ha-ha!
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  "Otherwise intelligent people" was not about you, sneako!
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  sneakorocksolidposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Randy! You, you,..........you snake!
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Sure, assume we're all a bunch of stoned perverts. Whatever makes you feel better, I guess.
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I can only speak for myself. I am not a prevert!
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I don't even know what a pervert is. Nothing I engage in would I label perverted, it's all just good clean fun. Okay so, maybe it's not all exactly clean.
  
  Oh yeah, now I remember what a pervert is. A high priest (Joseph Smith, namely) who marries himself to many women, and little girls as well, telling their fathers and/or original husbands that marriage to the high priest will guarantee the girls' whole families seats at the best tables in heaven.
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  sneakorocksolidposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No it's more like we're very commited and that either draws fire or questions. I think as far as down and dirty partyers we are duds so we're lacking in the bizzare department.
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Onusonusposted 15 years ago
And many people shall go and say, come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the House of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. Isaiah 2:3

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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  How much did the god of Jacob pay for this house?
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  sneakorocksolidposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The Temples are sooo beautiful! I love them!
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Alot of blood sweat and tears.
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So, no money was involved? You didn't by any chance help Smith write his novel, did you? With answers like the one you gave, you are definitely Mormon priest material.
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I used to be a Priest, but now I am an Elder. the Priests are generally teenaged men.
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  GP is a teenager? Wow, that explains a lot of things! I hope I didn't hurt that child's feelings.
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No silly, GP is most likely a High Priest.
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, the high part I am sure of
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, you would know.
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I've got glaucoma man! No kidding, several members of my family have gone totally blind from the disease. Perhaps if I stuck my face in a stovepipe hat and concentrated on a crystal rock, like Joseph Smith did, I could envision a better treatment.
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Whatever you say Thai Stick.
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Mighty white of you, Dip Stick!
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  And the adult new convert males as they prepare for the Melchizedek Priesthood.
  
  This is why the spires atop the west side of the Salt Lake Temple are a bit shorter than the east side. The west represent the Aaronic Priesthood, or the preparatory priesthood. The east represent the Melchizedek, or higher priesthood. All offices prepare unto the higher authority of the priesthood.
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jpop13posted 15 years ago
How did you get that picture on there?
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Magic
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Find a picture on the net, right click on it, go to properties, copy the properties address onto your response, then put "[img]" in front, and "[/img]" at the end.
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  jpop13posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Good man. You mormons are'nt so bad after all. JKJK.
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earnestshubposted 15 years ago
Hokey still owes me 14 chickens for teaching him how to get his boomerang to come back!
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  We don't call him Hokus Pokeus for nothing.
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Why do you think they call him "Hokey!
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well I need them chickens Hokey! No more goats, no more hyenas either! (I can't get the smell of em outta me bedding!)
  It's time you fronted up with real chickens. By the way we call then chooks for some uncountable reason, so don't go shouting "chicken" when ya get here or a hundred Australian footballers will fall on you screaming "Who ya callin chicken!"
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Dang those Buddhists! They're pretty smart, but they love their chicken and concubines! Hey! Where did my cookie chick go? HOKEY!!
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  See the problem as I see it, is ya can't trust them buddhists!
  Anyone who speaks fluent ant and goldfish is sus in my view!
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I suspect he only became Buddhist because he's bald. Budd's are chick magnets. Hence the loss of your 2 chooks and my 2 concs.
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  StormRyderposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  HOKEY!!! Damn chicken thief!!
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earnestshubposted 15 years ago
I don't think Joseph smith wanted to be too notorious.
How do you find a "Joe Smith."
Must be millions of em!
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Hokeyposted 15 years ago
Somebody please explain these contradictions. Hopefully GP since he is a minster.

Were there laws against disbelief?

No, everyone was free to believe or disbelieve

Alma 1:21
Now there was a strict law among the people of the church that there should not any man, belonging to the church, arise and persecute those that did not belong to the church, and that there should be no persecution among themselves.

Alma 30:9
If a man desired to serve God, it was his privilege; or rather, if he believed in God it was his privilege to serve him; but if he did not believe in him there was no law to punish him.

Yes, it was illegal to express disbelief.

Alma 1:15
What he had taught to the people was contrary to the word of God; and there he suffered an ignominious death.

Alma 30:29
Now when the high priest and the chief judge saw the hardness of his [Korihor's] heart, yea, when they saw that he would revile even against God, they would not make any reply to his words; but they caused that he should be bound; and they delivered him up into the hands of the officers, and sent him to the land of Zarahemla, that he might be brought before Alma, and the chief judge who was governor over all the land.
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  sneakorocksolidposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hey Hokey, I'm not great at all the meanings of everything but I 'll try to explain what I know.
  
  First we have whats known as the, "Articles of Faith." Number 11 addreses this: "We claim the privilage of Worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilage, let them worship how where or what they may.
  
  It also means there is no penalty for exercising your own choice or "Free Agency."
  
  Number 12: We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoringand sustaining the law.
  
  This directly inline with what Jesus had said,"Give Cesar whats Ceasars and give me what is mine."
  
  Does that help? Golden alot better at this than I am, if you need a better answer ask him I'm sure he would be glad to clarify what I'm saying. Thanks for asking! Thats awesome!
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  Hokeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I like to read and I like to learn. That is why I am asking.
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  Hokeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What about mine?
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I am cutting into the conversation very late, but let me address the post as I am understanding the question.
  
  The people were free to believe as they wished, however, Korihor was a different matter. Korihor actively caused dissention and discord in society. He actually sought to become a disturber. Under the law at the time a judgment had to be made. Had he not been a disturber no action would have been taken.
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  Timothy Donnellyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hokey, I only have a bit of time today. Thank you for bringing this genuine concern up. Let me say from experience that it is quite common for members to disagree with points being taught. It happens all the time in church - I do it myself regularly. If a speaker makes a gross error in the Sacrament meeting talk they agreed to present, the presiding priesthood holder is obligated to correct the falicy being put forward. Most often though, nothing is said to disrupt the meeting. A clarification would generally follow politely at a more opportune time the same day, like in class - we have two after Sacrament meeting. In classes however, comments and questions are encouraged. That is how people learn, remember - just like in school. Correct me if I am wrong, but one does not interrupt a lecturer in Higher schools of learning, but saves his query for a respectful dialouge at a later time - usually for a time that is reserved for these types of things. In the Book of Mormon example you bring forward, the dissenter is not trying to learn anything. He thinks he knows better than what he has been taught (or preached - without being taught is a more accurate description). The General Authorities (i.e. the ones in the upper ranks of the church structure, GIVEN the authority to speak on issues that need resolving, similar to the structure related at the time the accound was recorded in the Book - not lower lay-members like me) have spoken on apostacy and public dissent. The church holds the position, I believe, that it will not excommunicate people except for the most grievious and malicious sins, sins for which those specific members have publicly stated repeatedly that they will continue and that they will promote. Yes, this does include promoting heresy and falsities in church doctrine, for church doctrine is not only established through Revelation and the councils of the First Presidency and of the Twelve Apostles. Generally, however the Church is very tolerant, because it's position has been established, and it has been prophesied that this last dispensation of the Gospel (hense the RESTORATION) shall not fall. Respectfully, I hope this helps. That's all the time I have for now folks!
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  Timothy Donnellyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Remember, vistors are welcome in the church! You'all don't just have to try and understand by yourselves and a few books. In church services, the Spirit is alive and well. This happens to be the best teacher and testifier of Truth. Don't be apprehensive to be a part of a great few hours of worship and learning at the Lord's house every Sunday in your neighbourhood. You have a chance to ask questions, and you can expect an honest and forthright reply, as best as the teachers and members are able. They don't bite, either.
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lyricsingrayposted 15 years ago
:
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goldenpathposted 15 years ago
Hey, Sneak! What have you boys been up to?
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  sneakorocksolidposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hey Golden! I was trying to help you might want to see if I messed up or maybe you could answer more clearly. You and your family doing ok? It's always great to see you!
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I have been about the Father's work this evening. I never shun any other faith that proselytes to my door. After all, we do the same. This past Saturday we had a couple Jehovah's Witnesses come to our door. They were very nice people. We had a wonderful conversation. They proposed a certain belief that I didn't share. In return I expressed my thoughts and accompanied scriptural passages. There was no harsh language and no fighting. It was very cordial. Anyhow, the scripture I proposed perplexed them and they committed to study up on that passage of scripture. In the meantime, I based my latest hub on the subject and published it today. I've printed off a hard copy and took it over to the the home of one of the visitors. In it are eleven verses from the Bible advocating the thoughts I presented. It was a further testament to me that understanding and tolerance can occur in the world. We had a very good conversation.
  
  The family is fine and it is starting to warm up here in Iowa. We are getting ready for Stake Conference in Council Bluffs this weekend.
  
  By the way, the doctrine in question was whether or not the dead are alive and conscious. If interested, you are more than welcome to see if the hub is understandable to you.
  
  How are things down your way? Your family? It looks like the conversation here hit on the plural marriage again. That can be a difficult one to explain, however, if one understands the principle under which it was instituted in Bible times, things would seem much more clearer. It can take years to understand the principle of the practice at the time.
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I am going to the Winter Quarters Temple in a few weeks. I'd love to have you come up. You aught to tour the Mormon Trails Center. It's awesome and very insightful of the pioneer experience crossing the plains. The Iowa terrain was incredibly harsh. Perhaps someday our paths will cross.
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  sneakorocksolidposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I would love to but I'm a landscape contracter and I'm already busy! I'm in it up to my eyeballs, I'm working on pool installations and I'm trying to make a deal with new supply company. I still have to check on things so spring is tough. We will cross paths at least for maybe lunch. I have to take my son to the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Mn. next summer for an evaluation. He was born with hip Dysplasis and with years of soccer playing has accumulated causeing him some pain. He's ok it's just the amount of running that he has to do and he does play mid-field. This summer I will let you know when I do. I may have told you already, my Dads family is in Waterloo and Hampton. I'll keep you posted!
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I am truly sorry to hear of your son. It is heart-wrenching and can often test one's own faith. Unfortunately, I believe similar instances have happened to so many on this thread. I admit my ignorance. I really don't know much about your son's condition, but it's obviously serious enough to warrant the need of the Mayo.
  
  There is another member of the Church on HP from the Waterloo/East Iowa area. She regularly comments on my hubs. I think it's eovery. Forgive me if my short term recall sucks, but I think that's the person.
  
  We shall have to make a concerted effort to hook up sometime. If you'd like you are more than welcome to email me his name for the rolls for when I go up to Winter Quarters. Take care!
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Did you know that the pioneers averaged building two bridges per day on the Iowa trek? Wow, the first day would have done me in.
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goldenpathposted 15 years ago
Yes, to hold the calling that I have been entrusted, I have been ordained to the office of High Priest in the Melchizedek Priesthood. This notion was hinted as I looked back a few pages.

I won't even touch the plural marriage thing. There is absolutely no one here ready for such explanation. The explanation is already preconceived in their minds, and that's fine. I don't blame them as it is difficult to comprehend. I has nothing to do with sex, whatsoever, as they see it. The doctrine goes much much deeper than that.

I can't quite remember what else was touched on, but as usual I did see a lot of spitting of words.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I see where this aggressive pride comes from now. You have been promoted to a High Parasite. Congratulations. You must be very proud.
  
  Wonderful attack on all of us though. "difficult to comprehend"?
  
  "no one ready for such explanations."
  
  Superb attacks. Very, very well done priest. No wonder you were promoted.
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goldenpathposted 15 years ago
I didn't finishe the word. "It" has nothing to do with sex.
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lyricsingrayposted 15 years ago
thanks hokey
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  Hokeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Did you see my e-mail?
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  lyricsingrayposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  no im sorry i havent ill check now
  
  first have to pee.
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  Hokeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  go to FB
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Randy Godwinposted 15 years ago
"Now I'm washing lettuce, next I'll be making french fries, then it's assistant manager and that's when the big bucks start rolling in."
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Jeramiposted 15 years ago
Golden path Would you please adress an issue that I have ask of many preachers pastors and priests to never recieve an answer.

people seem to pass over what I believe to be one of the most important scriptures...

While chastizing the scribes and Pharisees with many "Woe unt you"s Jesus said to THEM ...
Matthew 23:35 "That upon you may come all the rightious blood shed upon the earth...." 23:36 Verily I say unto you all these things shall come upon this generation.
A few minutes later; In a private conversation with four of his disciples..
Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto "YOU" "this" generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled, but no one knows the day or hour".

I do not understand how anyone reads these chapters understanding Jesus to be talking about some generation to come 2000 or more years in the future.
Especially when we consider that Jesus also said "there be some standing here that shall not taste of death till they see the son of man coming in the clouds of heaven sitting at the right hand of power and glory".
This sounds to me that he was saying that the second coming of Christ happened in the first century.

Can you help me to understand why we should believe that the second coming is yet in our future.
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You have given a worthy question and I will answer in my next post. Give me a few minutes as it may be a little lengthy.
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus, here, is addressing the Scribes and Pharisees and the woes to come upon them. Now, keep in mind that this group HAD the law and knew it. This group actively sought, scourged and murdered the prophets that were sent. Not just Jesus Christ, Himself.
  
  In the verse you stated first, it also states, "That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar." Here, the Lord gives a timeline that this group shall now be accountable for. The Lord was so displeased at their hypocrisy that He pronounced the burden of all the righteous dead upon their heads. Why them and not their fathers? Well, as mentioned previously, they had and knew the law. Knowing this and continuing to plunder the prophets is a violation of the highest degree. What about their father's accountability? Sure, they did their share of killing, however, they did not have the law and really did not know. Therefore, the greater burden of the righteous' death between the time of Abel to Zacharias is upon the heads of the Scribes and Pharisees. This deepens the responsibility and accountability for those who have essential knowledge.
  
  In verse 36, it basically reaffirms that judgment for all these deaths will come to pass upon the heads of this group.
  
  Neither one of these verses refer to Christ's Second Coming. It only refers to His dealings with the hypocritical Scribes and Pharisees.
  
  I hope that explains it for you. That is my understanding of this passage.
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goldenpathposted 15 years ago
It's very late and I have work tomorrow. I would be happy to address any honest questions. Either post or email me. Have a wonderful day or night - wherever you are!

Remember to always look at the world through the gospel lens. The perspective will always be different.
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vaves1228_mpposted 15 years ago
Mormon teaches that Jesus and Satan are brothers!
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  Timothy Donnellyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  God is the Creator of all. His children are the one who choose to be. Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God the Father, and ultimate Creator. If we choose to BE a child of God, seeing as we have that invitation as one of His marvellous creations, then He promises that we shall co-inherit His Kingdom, etc. etc.
  Satan was a creation of God. He was not begotten like unto Jesus. Satan basically chose to PROMOTE his own agenda (opposite to Heavenly Father's plan of Salvation, hence him being expelled from Heaven along with his followers which are said to be 1/3 of the hosts of Heaven. If Satan was ever considered a brother of Christ, it could be only if he were ever not so vain, and the father of lies. Because He (Satan) hatched and promoted the plan of opposition to God, he was the master of his own destruction, and likewise unto the spirits who chose and choose him as their leader.
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Randy Godwinposted 15 years ago
The plural marriage thing is the easiest to understand of all the Mormon beliefs. Joe Smith liked the ladies as well as money and power. He found a way to have all three and much, much, more.

He was no different than Jim Baker, Jimmy Swaggart, or many other so-called men of god. But perhaps he was somewhat smarter than the aforementioned televangelists in that his followers were extremely gullible. All were just horny dudes with the power to sway the simple minded.

But no one here is ready to understand this.
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earnestshubposted 15 years ago
and the bible teaches that the devil is one of god's angels.
Both only happen in the imagination so not to worry!
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Jeramiposted 15 years ago
I am not wishing to be a disturber; but I am realy disturbed with this issue, it seems to me that Jesus didn't proclame punnishment upon these particular people but the "This generation", seems to be an all inclusive statement.
It sounds to me that the wrath of God is coming down upon that generation of peoples.
And as Jesus and the desiples are leaving the temple Jesus tells them that not one stone shall be left one upon another that shall not have been thrown down. And Then..A few minutes later Peter James,John and Andred came to him "PRIVATELY" and ask him when was these things going to be? ... and his coming again.
Jesus answers their questions which included the descriptions of the tribulation AND (24:29) after the tribulation they shall see him coming in the clouds with power and glore. And THEN (24:34) he says that this generation shall not pass till "all these things" be fulfilled.But no one known the day or hour.
I hope you see my delima... He says these things using such simple language and expresses them so clearly ???
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You might have noticed that throughout the Bible, some words have profoundly different meanings, such as the term "this generation" It might have been a better intrepertation to say "age" in that particular instance with Jesus and his apostles, although some of the things he said to them did happen in their lifetime, some of the things he predicted did not occur but is rather unfolding in our lives and others are yet to come.
  
  Some of the different meanings of the word "generation" are as prescribed in Biblical texts thus;
  1.A single succession in natural descent, as the children of the same parents; hence, an age. Thus we say, the third, the fourth, or the tenth generation. Gen.15.16.
  2. The people of the same period, or living at the same time. O faithless and perverse generation. Luke 9.
  3. Genealogy; a series of children or descendants from the same stock. This is the book of the generations of Adam. Gen.5.
  4. A family; a race.
  5. Progeny; offspring
  6.Age
  
  And sometimes more specifically;
  7.100 years Gen. 15:16
  8. 38 years Deut 1:35
  
  So I think that the more flexable word that Jesus used in this particular instance was "Generation."
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  Jeramiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you for your respectful answer.
  And I respectfully disagree.
  
  There are many references that if understood as written,
  would seem to point to "This Generation" being the proper translation. I agree that each one might be explained as you suggest. To me it seems that the sheer prepondence of circumstantial evidence would overweigh the neccesity for explanations such as this one.
  I will mention one...
  The seventy weeks as foretold in Daniel chapter nine.
  We all agree that the sixty two weeks were fulfilled at the time of the crucifixion. Seven weeks later the coming of the Messiah the Prince is to be fulfilled. That Hebrew Nation that was given 70 weeks to quit sinning and annoint the Most Holy had to have been fulfilled before that Nation ceased to exist.
  I do not think that prophesy skipped the sixty ninth week...Is it lost out there in interpretation land and yet the seventieth week was fulfilled??? This does not make sense
  There are just too many instances that prophesy as stated was explained away with interpretation.
  Why can we not simply accept prophesy as written?
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Because there are no true prophets. True prophets would have no need to be ambiguous about the future. It renders the prophesies almost worthless if they can be spun into many different meanings by diverse religious cults.
  
  Ambiguous prophesies are only used by false prophets because they can be claimed to have been fulfilled by the use of unclear, subjective, and hypothetical, statements.
  
  But, according to the hi-priest, "it is folly on anyone's part to accept information outside official channels."
  
  In other words, all outside information concerning the Mormons is false and is the product of the "Adversary's" work. Do not believe scientists, or science for that matter, when it disagrees with the Mormon church or its minions.
  
  History? Banish this out too, because the Mormons make up their own. Ignore newspapers or court documents showing Joseph Smith's former days as a common flim-flam man. Never mind the whole polygamy issue, because you are not enlightened enough to understand it anyway.
  
  Mormons murdering a whole wagon train of settlers who were no threat to them? A simple misunderstanding by the "prophet" Brigham Young,(you would think a prophet would have known to call this off before it happened) no harm done.
  
  So if you want to be a devout Mormon, be like the cult members on this thread and close your eyes and your mind to all other knowledge which doesn't agree with the cult. You will fit in well.
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  Jeramiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I am not Morman,Protestant nor Catholic.
  I was simply asking a question of a Mormon "Teacher" to see if he, UNLIKE all of the rest of the preachers ,Pastors, etc would clarify this issue.
  If you believe in the bible or not? I would like to know why Churches teach the seconding coming of Christ to be in our future when scripture seems to me, to be clearly state that this second coming would have been some time around the turn of the 2nd century.
  I have never ask this question to a Mormon "Teacher" before.
  I have never gotten a good answer from any one.
  Why do we have to interpret "everything else" in order for them to conform to the belief that the second coming has not happened, when Jesus clearly states that it would in THAT generation.
  
  I truly do not understand
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You are not alone, Jerami. I'm afraid no one can properly answer your question because no one knows the correct answer. Yes, many give their opinions, or the opinions of the particular cult they belong to, but it is up to you to seek the answers for your self.
  
  I do suggest you research the history of the Bible and how it was compiled by common human beings just like you and I. It has been edited many times over the centuries with some books left out, depending on the mindset of the particular cult at the time.
  
  These "lost" books are very interesting. Ever wonder why the New Testament doesn't tell much about Jesus from his birth until he teaches the Rabbis at the temple at age twelve or so?
  
  The religious "powers that be" decided some of these books didn't exactly fit their idea of what Christianity should be. Sounds like politics, huh? It was!
  
  In short, you will get the answer the particular cult member you ask, is told to give. What you discover by your own research will be more concise than any answer they will give you.
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry i couldn't help you with this issue, there is a Mormon doctrine concerning the second coming;
  D&C section 88 the Lord warns, "prepare the saints for the hour of judgment which is to come; that their souls may escape the wrath of God, the desolation of abomination which awaits the wicked both in this world and in the world to come"
  
  hence we don't believe that it has happened yet. Ofcourse it's not scientifically proven, but how many scriptures are?!
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I do see your dilemma. Envision this with me. Christ just verbally thrashed on the Scribes and Pharisees at the Temple. He leaves with his disciples and heads for the Mount of Olives. Now, keep in mind that Jesus was very set on record keeping. The records were kept for all future generations to learn from. Over the course of several verses He explains the many various signs preceeding the Second Coming of Christ, to his disciples. Then, He says "this" generation shall not pass until these things are fulfilled. He is currently speaking of the events, and mentions "this" generation as in "that" generation which experiences those signs. He is speaking as if to take the disciples on a tour, if you will, at those events. In other words He uses "this" in first hand grammar. This is actually key, because it deepens and resonates in the heart of man in these latter days. This is a marvel in words that He uses, because He was not only instructing the disciples but also instructing us as well. Some of those signs have not happened yet.
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  Onusonusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That is a very good answer, way better than mine. Thumbs up!
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  BDazzlerposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I do mean this respectfully, GP ... on what basis are you making this claim?
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I make the claim based on history. If Christ came for the benefit of all mankind than a directive from Him to keep such records must have come forth. Also, although I submit that few people here share the validity of this knowledge, Christ's dealings with the ancients upon this continent and others also have detailed records. These, too, must have been by commandment in order for the knowledge to survive the test of time.
  
  I admit, to my knowledge, I don't recall such directive in the Bible, but it is in the other standard works.
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  Jeramiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  He says "this" generation shall not pass until these things are fulfilled. He is currently speaking of the events, and mentions "this" generation as in "that" generation which experiences those signs.
  
  This is part of my dilemma... I think that if he had meant to say that generation that sees these signs he would not have said.. "THIS" generation
  How do we know when we can add whatever words that we want to to scripture?? And when we can not??
  Since this is a prophetic scripture I would think that we are not to add to or take away from these words.
  Cause 2nd Peter 1:20 says that no prophetic scripture has any private interpretation.
  I just think that if we were to believe these verses to mean exactly what they say as written... this would remove the necessity to keep on interpretating all other scripture.
  
  If A false one world religion were to come into power today, ... this is the kind of "Interpretation" that it would instigate in order to decieve the believers.
  What "IF" The Universal church that Constantine built was that one world Religion???
  And what "if" that religion began the custom of interpretating scripture to suit themselves???
  
  What "IF" The Lord knew the human languages well enough to say exactly what he wanted to say?
  What "IF" he was not depending upon "Inteligent" individuals to ... someday... be able to figure it out??
  
  I respectfully ask that you consider that possability.
  
  With a "Little" amound of the same kind of interpretational skills that are used to to one degree, lets use them in like manner to see that these things that Jesus spoke of did in fact happen in "That" Generation. ???
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  Twenty One Daysposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  i don't apologize for interjecting:
  
  Y`shua never mentioned a 'second coming'.
  In fact there is no mention anywhere of a 'second coming'.
  Not from Peter, Paul, John ( or Mary for that matter).
  
  He said "you will see the Son of Man coming in all his glory".
  
  What event happened in that generation regarding the Son of Man coming in all His glory?
  
  anyone...everyone?
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Randy Godwinposted 15 years ago
"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain."
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Randy Godwinposted 15 years ago
I wonder if those are snakeproof boots?
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earnestshubposted 15 years ago
My god is better than your god! Only one of you is right by your own rules, so all the rest must be going to "the other place"
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  Obscurely Diverseposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That's the first time I've ever heard Earnest truly sound religious like y'all other freaks... He has finally got the knack of it all... LOL!
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Must be the company here.
  
  I wrote a hub about religion. I have a history as a Christian, and studied the bible extensively for years.
  The result is my hub "The biblical got is a psychopath" Just in case religionists want to avoid it or just want to keep voting it down 100 times a day!
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  Obscurely Diverseposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'll definitely try to check it out tomorrow; I need to go hunting tonight for wild game; ha-ha! What do you mean "must be the company here"? I'm lost... Do you mean the freaks within the mormon forum or do you mean something else? I thought your comment "my God is better than your God!" was funny as hell. I didn't study too much organized religions, since one of my talents is intuition, it didn't take me very long to start the debunking process. What happened to you? Are you one of those folks that got mislead for too long and are now totally pissed for being lied to? Or, are you simply having fun making fun of stupid people, much like some of us often do? Ha-ha!
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No, religion did set me back for a while, but my motivation is the same across all subjects. Truth. I like it.
  I go to automotive forums and challenge their "truths" just as vigorously.
  
  I mean the freaks on the religious forums. The ones who leave no room for others in their beliefs, or their beliefs are such that I need to keep my kids away from those who push them and allow them the privilege I afford myself. I fear people who are terrified of dying instead of just living. My rewards in life are here right now.
  Freedom of thought and expression.
  It is working well so far.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Are you saying it's catching?
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Anything is possible with god. I am in reality a religionist, I just enjoy kicking the s**t out of myself!
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Springboardposted 15 years ago
Earnest, isn't that the funny thing about religion. Seems everyone believes the other is destined to go to hell.
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Springboard.
  Proves the point pretty well doesn't it?
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earnestshubposted 15 years ago
I cannot erase an image in my mind of Sara Pailin as President talking in tongues to congress!
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I would think she was just vomiting words, Earnest! It can never happen!
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  or to Gadafi! Now that cracks me up!
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Man that's a horrifying thought. The image popped right into my mind. Now i'm gonna have nitemares.
  
  On that note- 'nite all.
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  'night PB
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earnestshubposted 15 years ago
I would like to see a marriage between a certain religionist and Sara Pailin.
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Would the result be talking in tongues with a Wasilla accent? You betcha!
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ooh! You are the clever one!
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Randy Godwinposted 15 years ago
And sometimes one can't see the truth because they are told not to look for it!
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iantoPFposted 15 years ago
That last is a very good point Randy.
For the rest I would like to thenk GoldenPath for taking the time to answer and Timothy for your sincere replies.
There are two forms of argument. One is the academic argument where assertions are supported with documented evidence, the other is Unverifiable Personal Gnosis.
The writers on HubPages are very intelligent people. In particular Mark Knowles and Pandoras Box. Just read some of their Hubs and you'll see what I mean. However they require more than UPG if that is all that is presented then there will be ridicule. For a reasoned debate and if anyone wishes to be taken seriously then documented evidence to support your claims and refute anothers is a must.
That is a shame really because I would like to dig deeper into some questions I have. I would have liked to go further into certain aspects of Mormon theology such as the polygamous nature of the Mormon God, the potential for Godhood amongst mortals, the doctrine of blood atonement and the history of the Dannites.
none of these questions can be addressed if the only reply is a conviction that the church would never behave in a certain way. A fine belief but it must be supported by something more than the aforementioned UPG.
If you are interested may I refer you to the Mormon History Association. This is an academic group with historians from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, The Community Church of Christ and some 17 other smaller denominations in the "Restoration" movement.

http://www.mhahome.org/

Best Wishes.............Ianto
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  ianto you're right of course, that UPG doesn't cut it, and your point is well taken.
  
  Your approach throughout this thread has been very respectful of all parties at all times, and has earned you much well-deserved respect in return, I am sure.
  
  Some men try to place themselves above others, and some men just are above others. You're of the latter breed from what I've seen.
  
  You seem to have done a good deal of research into mormonism. When I finish my hub on the subject, I'd like your opinion on it.
  
  Namaste, as the hindu say.
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  iantoPFposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  I just became a fan
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ianto, I am unworthy. Truly. I sincerely consider it a favor from you to me.
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Nothing would please me more than to dig into the doctrines you've just mentioned. However, these are sensitive doctrines and can only be unfolded to those who are ready and able to grasp their meaning. This is not the place for such. This forum can be filled with viper activity. I do not dare divulge such sacred doctrine here. It would be an injustice. This will have to be one of those "agree to disagree" situations. There is Biblical history to support such doctrines. Simply because the modern world does not accept such things hardly means they are not valid or true.
  
  As far as polygamy is concerned I will say this. I will not get into the doctrine. That would take pages to truly explain adequately for anyone here to understand. I will say, however, that it did exist early in Church history. No, it was not prevalent. It was a very minute percentage of the membership that entered such vows, and it was always upon revelation from the prophet as to who was worthy to accept such committments. In fact, we have documented journal entries that Joseph Smith and the other brethren, battled in agony with the Lord concerning this doctrine because the traditions they, and we, grew up with seem to deny the practice. Furthermore, Joseph Smith held the doctrine inside for a few years after receiving the revelation in order to understand the doctrine better and to await the right time to institute it to the brethren. We have records expressing the firm disgust and distaste of the practice by the brethren. However, having acquired a firm testimony of the gospel they all eventually approached the Lord in prayer and received the comfort they desired. It took many deep studyies into the Biblical prophets to really understand the sacred nature of the vow. The prophets of old practiced it upon command and for a specific purpose. The exact same doctrine applies here, and was commanded of the early Church for the same purposes that the Bible set out.
  
  We can touch on most any other subject here, but there are some that are just too sacred and important to be placed on the desert sands for the vultures to circle.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I think the 'prophet' Joseph Smith started 'battling' with the doctrine of polygamy right after his first adulterous affair.
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  Hokeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  A little Judgmental for a minister who is supposed to share with non-believers.
  
  Keeping secrets huh? Afraid that us lowly, unintelligent, vipers will rip your Sacred Doctrines to shreds and show how Fallible they truly are?
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No, just by your grinding continual comments you, and others, prove that you are not willing to learn a different point of view. If one is not willing then they have no business being taught the deeper doctrines of the gospel. You would never give a baby meat, but rather milk. All things have to build up so that the internal foundation is firm enough to support further learnings. You can't learn nuclear science unless you take Math 101.
  
  It may sound like an attack, but it is just an illustration of the level of readiness of the people here to receive these learnings. Most of your hearts are not in the right place for receiving the principles and learnings of this faith. You are still bent on tearing down and demeaning the faith of others. You must first learn how to take in the milk before the meat.
  
  Judgment on my part? Yes, when it comes to the doctrines of the gospel, we are to be mindful of the spirit telling us when someone is or is not ready to learn a certain principle or practice. Their foundation must be firmed up first. That is the aim of my comment you question.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So you refer to the 'not yet ready' as vipers and vultures.
  
  I see.
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What he means is that until a religionist is fully indoctrinated there is no way they would buy the next level of credulity.
  A bad case of megalomania.
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Does this mean I am not worthy, that I am not intelligent enough to fully grasp the intricacies of make-believe history? I certainly hope so!
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No fear Randy! You have nowhere near enough ego to proclaim publicly that you are the way, light etc.
  Religionists do not have authority in their lives, so they import it!
  
  Borrowed power. "I am bigger and better than you, because I know a fairy and you don't! Na na na na na na"
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  Hokeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Judge not, that ye be not judged.
  For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. Mk. 4.24
  And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
  Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
  Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The foundation must be firmed up first. First you put the name jesus christ on your bibles in triple large print. Then you say you're christian, and offering a testimony of jesus christ. After you get them hooked in you start charging them 10% of their income to maintain their salvation. Then you play on their egos, grant them all a little bit of pretend power, teach them your verbatim marketing spiel, and send them out to fish for more suckers, er, ahem, I mean customers.
  
  To keep up with the changing needs of your client base, you regularly update your 'revealed truth'. Anything about your company which may be deemed heretical, ridiculous, or self-serving and cannot be effectively obliterated, you sweep under the rug and hope it never gets found out.
  
  Clever business, clever business. They don't call mormons shrewd businessmen for nothing.
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  Hokeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I think I love you!!!
  
  Off to work at the clinic for a little while. Saving the world one addict at a time!
  
  Namaste-
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Good for you Hokey, that's great! You are a saviour.
  
  I gotta get some work done too. Mine's not nearly as worthy as your's though.
  
  Namaste, have a buddhacious day!
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Keeping secrets = honesty. In Mormon double speak anyway.
  
  He is just being honest - we are too ignorant and probably vassals of the Adversary. See how he has all these get out clauses and whichever way you look at it = he is knowledgeable and any dissenters are ignorant Devil worshipers. Classic BS religionist.
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  iantoPFposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  It is a shame. I'm sorry to read that you feel you can't get into these things. You must realize that this is a writers forum. Almost by definition it is going to have a high proportion of intelligent and creative people. Such people will take offense at being preached at, will never accept that someone has more right to information than them and will react with scorn against someone whose only reply is "I believe it because God witnessed it to me" That will never fly in this place.
  However, if you placed your arguments in more academic forms you might gain some respect. For instance, on the question of the Golden Plates, an answer could be;
  "I wasn't around in the 1830's so I have not seen them. However here is the written testimony of three that did aside from Joseph Smith, and here are their statements given years later when they were close to death confirming their first statement."
  Do you see the diference? Now you are in a position to challenge us to refute you with rational argument.
  The people here are neither vipers nor vultures, they are people who, if you do not treat them to intelligent discourse, they will treat you as comic relief.
  Read again my last post. I am not concerned with Human polygamy that gets beaten to death. I would have liked to explore with you the concept that God is a polygamyst. The concept of Heavenly mothers and that though we may be the children of God you may well be my brother from another mother.
  That and the doctrine of blood atonement "If a man shed innocent blood, then by man shall his blood be shed."
  Also, in Mormon history is the "Salt sermon" of Sidney Rigdon that gave rise to the Danite movement.
  Respectfully, if a Latter-Day Saint wishes to avoid these types of questioning then this is the wrong place to present your faith.
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No sense mincing words with me. I did not start the thread. I saw the thread, noticed the excess slander and felt that I should provide the true nature of the gospel as we practice it.
  
  It is incredible how no one here could comprehend the elementary simple comparison to what I've been trying to get across. Milk before meat! It's so simple to understand, yet none of you are willing to accept that you, indeed, might not be ready. Instead you continue the front line of prideful attack. Yeah, I'll say it - attack. This is not simple ridicule as so many of you elude to. It's downright prideful attack. When you cannot respectfully accept that I feel you are not ready for certain knowledge, you go on the offensive and charge that I "shouldn't present my faith in here." Yes, it's as you've said, a "highly intelligent group of writers." Actually, iantoPF, you are among the few who have been civil in your questions and I highly respect that.
  
  I believe it was Hokey who started to quote scripture to me regarding my judging all of you in regards to receiving this knowledge. I have never judged someone elses status of salvation. Never. However, here in the body we are all called upon to make certain judgments. In the Bible there were many "common judges of Israel." They judged people's worthiness and progression. These are credible and sacred calling by which man can gain great guidance and direction. No - you are not ready, for you have not partaken of the milk yet. Heck, you haven't even seen the milk jug yet. There are very few here who have even the slightest desire to learn. They continue to be puffed up in their own pride and to bite and spit their words at us. I can accept ridicule. I've spent most of my life with it. The burden of ridicule, however, does not just rest in how it's received, but also in how it's given. You - all have the responsibility to choose your words carefully as to maintain respect. The light-hearted attitudes expressed by many on this thread come nothing short of adolescent jealousy. It's wrong and unbecoming of you.
  
  Because of this, you will maintain your MO and continue the front lines. As I said before, whatever trips your trigger. It matters not what you think of me. I am as the dust as scripture dictates we all are. However, I am content that I have defended the faith. I believe there are four Latter-day Saints who, in here, have held true to our integrity without pulling out heated attacks. Until you all humble yourselves and admit, within, that you really don't know everything, you won't be ready to receive information that may be useful for you.
  
  If you really desire the meat, you must first desire and appreciate the milk first. Simple as that. As "accomplished writers" this concept should be easy to understand.
  
  Amidst all of this, I really hope you all have a great and wonderful day wherever you are in the world.
  
  Ponder within, tolerance and understanding was never meant to be an easy road. Change is hard but is vital to personal growth.
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  Obscurely Diverseposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Did you think about this crazed version of cow dung when you was, say, 5 or 10 years old or did this get installed into your cranial structure...later on in life? Just curious, as I'm trying to learn from you smart people of higher intellect... Please help me, dear berating bishop of bogus baloney... Ha-ha!
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I truly thank you for proving my point with every spitting post you promote. I further keeps me from having to explain it again, and again, and again, and again.........
  
  Well, there's one who doesn't understand the simple concept of milk before meat. Any other takers want to take a shot at me?
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  Obscurely Diverseposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That's the longest definition of 'idiot' I've ever seen. Hey, congratulations, you have a fetish for senseless poppycock! LOL!
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you, and you're Obscurely Diverse. Pleased to have met you. Hey, thanks for the title, at least now you acknowledge me as someone real in the world. See, you really are on the road to understanding and tolerance. This is good to see. Perhaps someday you will be ready for the milk. Low-fat of course, whole milk these days is seen as taboo.
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  Obscurely Diverseposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I appreciate your offer of dairy products, I really do; but for now, I still like alcoholic beer of yummyness. When I get ready to suck-off asinine cow-milk from religious freaks, I'll hit you up first. How's that, for a divine agreement of compensation between two conflicting parties?
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Until that day - I'll look forward to that encounter with great hope and feelings of good will. Parting ways is such sweet sorrow.
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  Obscurely Diverseposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, since this convo has gone into the hidden aspects of this forum: I think you need to pull your head out of your own sphincter. Are you fu*kin' serious? You actually believe that sh*t you spew outward? Ha-ha! You are either oblivious to reality or a damn fool, and I hope, for your sake, you're just plain stupid - god bless, of course. Ha-ha! You don't have me fooled; you need mental help or at least some hobbies outside of fondling retards...
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I had a glass of milk and some pork rinds and am ready to delve in the mystical depths.
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  Obscurely Diverseposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'm glad it worked for you, but this guy is a real whackjob! I'm about to embark upon some seminal ejaculation and some sleep; I'll let your little mystical ass fight off the rest; ha-ha!
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  This is hard to believe. Look back at the posts which were posted before you joined the thread on its very first day. Excess slander? No, not at all. A few jokes, but most of the posts were very complimentary to the mormon religion.
  
  You then joined the discussion announcing "I am here!" You went on in your usual self-inflated way, offering to answer anyone's questions about the religion.
  
  But whenever someone asked you a question you didn't seem to want to answer, you ridiculed them and evaded a direct answer, or actually lied. You ridiculed Ianto when he asked you about charismatics in the early church. You ridicule him now in your reply to his very friendly attempt to part ways with you with regrets.
  
  You asked in another thread for people to explain to you why it is that you have trouble communicating with people, and yet you rejected every attempt of anyone to reason with you, just as you rejected Ianto's respectful attempt.
  
  You accuse us of pride?!!!!
  
  Consideration is freely given, up to a point. Respect is earned. You've lost all appeal to respect due to your own excessive pride, your whining false humility, and your proven lack of integrity.
  
  I won't directly interact with you again, because you are such an unpleasant person beneath your chipping veneer, and I'm tired of the names you toss about with guilt trips and the manipulation you try to pull. But I suggest -with all due respect and with genuine if honestly limited concern- that you go about your business for a few days until you get yourself under control and then go take a long, hard quiet look in the mirror.
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You have been plain enough in your comment, but he will not see it will he? Once the god tin foil hat goes on, the brain ceases to operate except through the insanity of religion. He abuses constantly and never sees it.
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I am proud of our new Priestess! Notice how she speaks plainly and clearly and doesn't resort to a "holier than thou" attitude like the little guy with the bracelets.
  
  But I do feel sympathy for him. Not because I feel it is the right thing to do, but because he knows no better.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Fully agree !
  Not interacting with him anymore as well.
  He always finds the manner to accuse you of offending, while all the time the offenses come from him.
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  sneakorocksolidposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  We just see things differently. Our perspective on life and religion are enveloped in our faith. We just see the world through different eyes. I used to be insane I partied and did what ever I wanted so I see your side as well. I wouldn't have given the religious the time of day, I just didn't care. I traveled around the world getting high and skiing just looking for a rush! Well I managed to get my wife pregnant and we decided to give him a clean start so we threw out the anchor and tried to be responsible parents. It's ok to fly when it's just you and your wife but our son needed resposible adults to give him a good start. We started hanging out with more family oriented people and BAM! Well I see your side very well but I understand and agree with what motivates Golden. If he sounds like hes a know-it-all you would have to understand how much time we spend studying the word. It's our love and motivator. I know he loves you all even if there's communication issues.
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I certainly understand your desire to raise your child right, Sneako. We indeed see thing differently as I would not teach my child things without knowing if they were true or not.
  
  You may think they are true, but if there is reasonable doubt and you ignore the fact, then you are doing your child a disservice by pretending there isn't. And you are also doing yourself harm because your child will learn the real truth later on in life, if he receives much of an education.
  
  We rail against terrorism in today's world, against those raised with false doctrines taught by the religious zealots of the world with the permission and gratitude of their parents. Yes, some of it is harmless, but it is still untruth. "The truth shall set you free," apparently,freedom is not worth the effort.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I have to disagree with you. He's one of those who tried to get me banned for my bikini picture, and he always have a twisted way that leaves me being the bad guy, when he's the one saying nasty things. and he does that with everyone
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  sneakorocksolidposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I respect you and your opinion. I'm sorry you guys are at odds. You know this is really awkward for me but, you're my friend and I want it to remain that way.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Of course we remain friends !
  I'm not going to argue with you about this GP!
  not worth it !
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Falsehood! Where do you get your information that I've tried getting you banned? Never happened. I simply expressed that I disagreed with the picture and left it alone. I seek not to get anyone banned. Actually, considering other pictures I've seen in here, yours was actually the more tasteful. I've never turned you in - ever.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Glad to know then !
  If I misunderstood your comments about me , my bad.
  Nevertheless you attack hubbers in what you think is a subtle way, but it shows. I'm sorry, but I'm not the only one saying it.
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I accept the fact that many feel ruffled under the collar with every post of outreach I create. However, we can both agree that we have come to some understanding here. I really never did turn you in or seek to have you disciplined in any manner. You've never threatened me, or done anything that I would deem warranting such discipline. I'm sure you wouldn't agree, but religion aside, you and I would probably have some jovial laughs. You seem to have a good sense of humor.
  
  Peace, and I hope all is well down in your neck of the woods.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  OK
  Maybe we would. Who knows !
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I don't know if you've ever seen a dairy cow, but I bet thirty years ago you and I would have had a hilarious blast at a night out of cow tipping! I'm too old and fat for that now, but in my younger days it was a hoot!
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not a farm girl, so I don't know anything about cows.
  
  And I'm a Hell of a sinner for your own standards, so I don't think we could have had good times together !
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That's why I say thirty years ago. Those were my rebellious times as well. I remember once creating a beverage I coined as "Mud". It was sad. One Friday evening a couple buddies and I dug through the trash dumpsters behind an ELKS club. We collected all their partial and outdated liquor and brought it back to our apartment. We mixed it all together and "enjoyed". Boy, did I pay for it..... I couldn't be paid to relive that drama again. That was a long 48 hours behind bars drying off that one.
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  Timothy Donnellyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Must have been the outdated liquor Buddy. I hear that liquor gets stronger as it ages - unless the container it is stored in is not closed properly - then it get weaker as the alcohol evaporates before the H2O (and majority of volume) does.
  Well, I trust you have forgiven yourself, my friend.
  Allow me now to make a real sorry analogy: Just like a Super Ball bounces, if you drive it into the ground, its resultant bounce carries if higher than if just dropped out of neglect. This is due to the energy that gets reverse-directed up from the ground (or surface it was thrown down upon). Of course, in order for this rebound to be higher than the level at which it was dropped from, the surface it strikes must be unyielding (hard). PLEAE DON”T TRY THIS ONE AT HOME, folks.
  Been there, done that (many times until I understood what insanity means, and then finally humbled myself enough to follow the BASIC FUNDAMENTAL steps, of which there are 12).
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Very good analogy! Lots of doctrine in that. I also fancy the doctrine behind the refiner's fire. The harder we fall the hotter the flame, until one day the countenance is seen in us and then, we are ready to be molded by the Maker's hand.
  
  Hope all is well up there, bud!
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  Timothy Donnellyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  Thank for asking, friend. I still get my ups and downs, but I try to land on my figurative knees to figure things out. Either that, or I pass out (just joking).
  Actually, I'm in the process of arranging a move closer to my aging parents. So I crunched for resources once again. I am always aware of my daily blessings though, as best as I can have them in remembrance.
  I hope you are doing well GP. You have increased your time allotment on the internet quite a bit lately, have you not?
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, unfortunately. I need to concentrate more on my writings. It's hard, though, letting inconsistencies continue here. However, I need to remember that just as in counseling people, all I can do is direct and instruct, ultimately it's up to the individual to use their agency to choose their own thoughts and actions. Yes, all, I admit I'm not perfect - by a long shot! I must retain that bright hope that the hosts of heaven rejoice at the reconciliation of even one soul. I admit I've affected no one here for the better. That's alright, though. It just means that the way in which I present the basics of the gospel was not conducive or received by the many in this type of platform. However, someday, I hope that there will be someone out there who will affect each one of them for the better and will adequately instruct a level of religious understanding and tolerance that I've obviously failed to do.
  
  My best goes out to your parents.
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  Timothy Donnellyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  GP, what you are doing here on this thread is having a positive benefit on those who MAKE SPACE for your words in their hearts and minds. I believe that people who respond very quickly include little ponderation in their remarks. Still, the seeds you disperse are good seeds, by and large, in my humble estimation.
  I might now take this opportunity to respectfully say to you my friend, that the path you are compelled to take is an arduous one with little immediate reward. Also, be aware that it was no less than one of our own Leaders (unfortunately, I am unsure of the exact source) that said, and I shall paraphrase, that as soon as one starts to PREACH (verb transitive), they lose the Spirit.
  This is one reason I think that we are constantly taught to be humble - not facetious, or flippant, and certainly not fickle, but humble in the sense that we must not ever be more than a servant to our flock. This, in order for them to befriend and embrace our veritable partnership in life, and then trust our sincere counsel as one emanating from a high and mighty source, if not this, then at least counsel that is purely altruistic and positive in its message, however they are able to understand it.
  Be not discouraged, GP, for if only one learns positively from your discourse, it is a success. Ahh, the drudgery!
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  Timothy Donnellyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  Thanks Goldenpath. I am fortunate to have the freedom to allot more time to spend with them. It is also a test for me, as it can be challenging for me to witness their rapid decent into the frailties of old age.
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  Timothy Donnellyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  From there, it was a building up of knowledge, through study, consultation, prayer, and faith. This latter part was real tough at first because it took a while to understand that once through the 12 steps, they can NOT be discarded. They are part of the foundation that is built upon. Same concept that GP and the rest of us Mormons try to articulate - one must have the preliminaries before the complex - then what seems as complex (or convoluted) becomes SIMPLE, and not confusing but rather gratifying.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  You are going to have to send me a copy LOL of that LOLOL dictionary LOL you are LOL using.
  
  Your attacks are as dishonest as the day is long. That is the great thing about using forums - every word you write stays.
  
  Outreach?
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  Mark O Richardsonposted 5 years agoin reply to this
  sneakorocksolid-
  Well said about goldenpath.
  Randy-
  Everyone has a right to their own opinion.
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