I'm not a big fan of getting into controversial discussions in the forums. I prefer to read than write here, but this has been bothering me for a long time.
There are some deep questions that I want to ask. When I talk to Jewish Rabbis or thinkers they would engage me forever, keep the coffee coming and the debates never stop. Christians however, when you present them with serious challenging questions they reduce it to name calling and change the discussion from honest questioning to unpleasant acrimony.
Is there anyone out there who would be willing to face an honest debate? Who knows, it might even inspire some Hubs on both sides.
What do you wish to debate?
I'm busy weekdays but can login most evenings Penang time, are you in the USA because the east coast is exactly 12 hours opposed to me?
Right now it's 19.27 Sunday...
Sorry to hear you've had a bad experience with some Christians. Just remember, Christians are still just people, and only sinners go to church.
What sort of questions have the Christianity avoided answering, or changed the subject on?
I must say it is a little bit of a sweeping generalisation. Like me saying that all questions asked to Jews get answered with another question, which is why conversations go on and on without getting an answer
I'd love to know the deep questions you are looking to have answered. There are plenty of people who like a good debate and to get their teeth stuck into some seriously deep issues here on Hub pages. All in the name of fun and education of course.
If honesty were part of the Christian mindset, they would be faced with trying to answer hard questions and faced with the contradictions and hypocrisy of their belief system. But, since they can't be honest with themselves, they will never be honest with anyone else.
No, nada, no way! It always ends up with me getting banned from hubpages. Leave those nuts to themselves.
See..Here is a prime exmple of why some people professing Christ get so beligerrant! It is a built in self defense response. Is it right? No..But is this here right ( NUTJOBS?) Come on! Really, if you sir had a religion other than my own I would not referr to your religion as (NUTJOB) So can we all give a little respect?
Hold on there. You have just stated "I was "debating" gods word with a fellow "Christian" and it became physical" - and pointed out that most Christians are not real Christians and religion causes wars - yet you expect automatic respect for this belief system?
I mean - what would you call some one thinks the universe was vomited by a Star Goat and thinks it should be illegal to not eat Goat's cheese once a week and fights to get this written into the constitution? Then they go around attacking all the other Star Goat Believers for not doing it right, and the occasional SG believer shoots an innocent shop keeper for letting the Goat's Cheese go out of date?
Because that is what your religion sounds like to me.
You are absolutely right ..I did say DEBATING and CHRISTIANS and PHYSICAL... But you forgot to say the other part "BACK INMY ZEALOUS DAYS" that means a long time ago when I thought I knew SOOOOO much about christianity and GOD..lol... maybe thats why you percieve things in an abstract way ...you see things how you want to and read things for what you expect it to be instead of what it is! Either way, I thought I knew it all after I first got saved..AND MAYBE YOU ALSO FORGOT TO READ THE PART WHEN I SAID/////// I LAUGH AT MYSELF FOR THAT!!!
Yet you still demand respect for your ridiculous, war causing belief system. You yourself said - it causes wars. But - you want respect.
Why is that exactly?
Religion doesn't cause wars. People cause wars and use religion as an excuse. There is a difference.
I see - so how easy would it be to cause a war if no one believed God sed so? The belief that god sed so is a powerful tool to manipulate the masses. This is called "religion" and is part of the arsenal that the powers that be use to manipulate people.
SO - what value religion? After thousands of years of using this irrational belief - don't you think it is time to discard this and develop something that works?
Well - now that we have discarded the notion that one of us already has all the answers and the other one should do as he says - we can have a reasonable dialogue to discuss that.
See? How much better is that? Paraglider has a great hub here about how we might go about developing a secular code of ethics as a basis for teaching children:
And there is a discussion page here that you may find interesting:
http://hubpages.com/hub/Rational-Code-o … Discussion
Yep, read both of them and can't find anything that is excluded from the list I posted originally, just a secular version, and I agree that in a mainly secular world I would welcome secular reared children being taught ANY code of ethics that stopped the rot we have seen since religious ethics were banned from the classroom.
I'm off to bed in a moment (can't believe it, but we have a 1.30am start!) so probably won't be back on for a few hours!
John - you are speaking with forked tongue once again. You mean the rot that meant women were not allowed to vote?
The rot that allowed children to be employed as chimney sweeps?
The rot that allowed the conquest of India by force?
The rot that allowed us to purposely infect the American Indian with small pox?
The rot that allowed the Great Depression?
The rot that had the Cornish tin miners shot?
Just exactly when was it that we had such a wonderful code of ethics that was better than now?
I was unaware that the words of Christ were used to enforce those things, take another look at my list and tell me where He condoned or suggested any of those things.... I think you will see that He never did suggest any such thing...
Women in the US got the right to vote in 1920, mainly by the efforts of two women:
Susan B. Anthony was raised in New York as a Quaker. She taught for a few years at a Quaker seminary and from there became a headmistress at a women's division of a school. At 29 years old Anthony became involved in abolitionism and then temperance. A friendship with Amelia Bloomer led to a meeting with Elizabeth Cady Stanton, who was to become her lifelong partner in political organizing, especially for women's rights and woman suffrage.
Elizabeth Cady Stanton, married and mother to a number of children, served as the writer and idea-person of the two, and Susan B. Anthony, never married, was more often the organizer and the one who traveled, spoke widely, and bore the brunt of antagonistic public opinion.
So I guess it was men that had denied the right, not Christ, and indeed Susan B. Anthony was a Christian woman, so the driving force behind the move was Christian.
As your signers of the original constitution were deists, I guess you could blame them, and their incomplete relationship to Christ for that one.
MEN were to blame, a Christian woman corrected the error.
The rot that allowed children to be employed as chimney sweeps?
I come from a family of chimney sweeps (who like Golden Girls and Lads all must, come to dust...Robert Louis Stevenson) we were sweeps from 1841 - 1956 and my dad was the last sweep, had it not been stopped by the first Eco legislation, (smokeless zones act)I guess I would have been next. Sweeps earned good money, don't knock them!
I was unaware that Christ had any command that made us sweeps, I think it was just a family business, and yes, my ancestors did get stuck up chimneys in the 'bad old days' - but only if they got too fat from good living... besides the chimneys we climbed were large substantial chimneys in big houses, all the smaller ones got cleaned with brushes.
If you got stuck, they got you out as well.
I certainly missed the 'bad old days' when our family business shut down, we got to be poor again and my dad had to work in the Post Office, which eventually killed him, and kept us poor.
Stop pulling events of the top of your head that have no relationship to the subject.
The rot that allowed the conquest of India by force?
So now the whole expansionist attitude of the British Empire was Christ's fault, I don't think so, it was just how the ruling classes acted in those days, and you could do a skit about "What did the Brits ever do for us" with this one, well let me tell you, the Brits gave India...
A legal system
A rail system
A banking system
A health system
A common language
They stopped (or tried to stop) the caste system, they stopped women being burned alive at their husbands funeral pyre, they gave them democracy, and they gave them Christ and the freedom to worship freely.
They also gave them British citizenship when they left.
Another knee jerk reaction from you.
The rot that allowed us to purposely infect the American Indian with small pox?
Definitely not guilty on that one:
Smallpox reached what was to become the United States either from Canada or the West Indies. The first major outbreak of an infectious disease recorded on the northeastern Atlantic coast was 1616-19. The Massachusetts and other Algonquin tribes in the area were reduced from an estimated thirty thousand to three hundred (Bray). When the Pilgrims landed a year later in 1620, there was few Indians left to greet them. Many observers believe this infectious disease was smallpox.
Check your 'facts' again...
The rot that allowed the Great Depression?
Not even sure where you draw any link here, maybe you think that as the bankers possibly claimed to be Christian, they started it, but I think you will find that Messrs. Rothschild and Cº (Jewish)were behind it, and they were Illuminati, not Christian.
The rot that had the Cornish tin miners shot?
I assume you are talking of the 1926 General Strike, and the miners revolt against greedy mine owners, I have tried to find where Christ condoned this, but all my list came up with was:
Labor not to be rich: be ready to every good work, give to those who ask; relieve the afflicted (1 Tim. 6:8; Rom. 12:13; Heb. 13:16; James 1:27).
So you can see that whoever ordered the shots to be fired (Churchill ultimately) was NOT applying the words of Christ to the situation.
You have had my 'list' of Christ's commandments, some of which you seemed to approve (which ones do you baulk at, I'll ask you again?)and NONE of which would warrant or condone those actions you mention above.
You really should stop trying to blame ALL the worlds ills on Christianity, after all, it was a Christian that got slavery banned...
James Madison said, "Religion is the basis and Foundation of Government.... We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."
Montesquieu wrote: "Society, notwithstanding all its revolutions, must repose on principles that do not change." "The Christian religion, which ordains that men should love each other, would without doubt have every nation blest with the best civil, the best political laws; because these, next to this religion, are the greatest good that men can give and receive."
See anything wrong with those principals?
The 'rot' set in from 1962, when Christ was banned from American schools, that is why the US (and now the UK as well) has raised a generation of unruly, ill discipline and anarchic children, who have no Christian ethic to base their behaviour upon.
Like I said, Paragliders ideals are fine for a secular humanist society, IF they could be applied, but in reality it's a sticking plaster to repair a gaping wound, a wound caused to our society by humanist social engineering, and which you all seem to have only just noticed needs fixing.
Secular humanist America threw the baby out with the bathwater.
Or at least those babies that it failed to kill with abortion, currently running at 1.37 million per year... who introduced THAT concept and forced through that legislation?
Wanna try to blame that on Christ as well?
Nice list Mark, but ALL of those things still do not comply with the commands Christ gave us, and my supposition that the rot started when the bible was discarded is with reference to the overall moral decline of society.
Men have always started wars, Christ does not.
My point is that IF secular humanity would simply live by the commands Christ gave (even without belief in His status) then the world would be a better place.
But secular humanity refuses to do that, and (having lived long enough to know) the world secular humanism has formed is a much less moral society, where iniquity abounds.
Anyhow, I only started to write this because my son called from the States and woke me up, and discussing this is getting us nowhere, so why should I lose any sleep over it.
I'm not phased by this, indeed, it's the predicted end times scenario, so to quote GWB "Bring it on" the sooner we sink into the complete secular humanist NWO mire, the sooner He will wrap things up and we can get rid of all this basura.
John - you are once again speaking with forked tongue. Your point was that there is a rot that has set in since we discarded the teaching of religious nonsense in schools:
I am merely pointing out that this is a lie - unless you think all those things I have listed did not happen pre-1962?
Clearly - we have never lived by the rules you want us to.
Surely it is worth asking why not; discarding what does not work (1800 years is enough -surely?), and developing something that does?
Oh all those things happened, but they happened because man did them, it's nothing to do with Christ, His words are explicitly against those things.
You are correct, clearly the world has never lived by His rules, perhaps in part because humans are so selfish and desire to be their own gods, a trait shared with Satan.
As for discarding Christianity, well that is what has happened since 1962, so you are on your way to a better society... I don't think!
This world is on it's way out, as we know it, and secular humanism is playing it's part, just as predicted and defined.
So in many ways, I should NOT be trying to warn folk off the concept, for if Christianity did sweep the world, in the form Christ commanded we obey, then the whole thing would carry on again... and I'm a futurist looking forward to getting home in the Lords good timing, but far be it for me to complain if the Lord tarries awhile.
Maybe it will happen that folk turn to the commands of Christ?
Do Christians outright lie about their religion or do they just not know much about it?
Thomas Aquinas and Augustine of Hippo both formulated the concept of the "Just War" and is one of the dominant positions held by Christians.
A Just War is a war against sin. It is not a war waged with any allegiance to the State but instead to a god.
And even though the other strong position held by Christians is pacifism "He who welds the sword shall die by the sword" is what was told to Peter, it is a position that is not only unreasonable, but unbibilical as it is viewed that the world is full of sin, and Christians are here to fight it.
In other words, they have created the concept of good vs evil and have been in the throws of making that concept a reality.
Well Q, you read some church fathers.... well done.
Good and Evil is more than just a concept that they dreamed up, take a look outside at the world if you can drag yourself away from trolling...
My basic premise is to TRY to keep people from passing wrong judgement on Christianity, by trying to keep them focussed on what Christ actually said, rather than what folk THINK He said, or have been taught He said.
You've seen the list of His commandments... which ones do you reckon would make the world a worse place?
Sorry if my criticisms of your beliefs disturb you. If you were the object of eternal damnation from those who gleefully light the fires in abject delusion, you'd want to say something about it, too.
That's funny, Mark keeps telling you we aren't speaking to Jesus. We are simply observing Christianity for the acts it's followers commit in the name of Christ. We can also turn to the bible du jour and see exactly what god wants you to do in his name. Therefore, it really doesn't matter how much you sugar-coat Christianity, the taste thus far has been very bitter.
They all do as they have no meaning. They are concepts derived from the Adam/Eve/Good/Evil/Reward/Punishment/Heaven/Hell/God/Satan myths and superstitions of long ago.
We have to scrap it all and start over with humans discussing what's best for humanity and its' future.
Do you realize you are looking forward to complete annihilation with anticipated glee, because you think an ancient Bronze Age myth, riddled with pure nonsense, defines reality? And you wonder why people call you delusional.
Its called trust and faith in Christ and God, something I advise anybody to acquire as we get towards the end, and maybe even a mite before.
I would advise that everyone not acquire your perception of reality unless they want to be delusional. I would follow your advice if your Christ and God made sense, but they don't. Faith and trust in nonsense is absurd.
I'll agree with you on this point.
This above statement shows how uneducated you really are, even if you've been to college and hold many degrees.
Following "god" is simply a concept or idea. The "metaphor" known as "god" is about self. As for the rest of your post -"Faith and trust in nonsense is absurd." clearly shows you know nothing about Jesus or his work. Faith is automatic and YOU are required to use it every day, in every action you make during the course of your life. Trust is in the understanding that Jesus' work was about understanding ourselves and learning to be 'god' in our own life(heart, mind and ability).
So, before you begin trying to tear about what other people believe, it would be nice if you understood your own life before hand.
Just a thought.
I don't think you understand. I don't care about Jesus and his work, or what value you find in it.
I also think you have some nerve to pass judgement upon me about my education. Please refrain from those types of responses in the future. In the forums, I have avoided you, or treated you with respect. I'm not a child for you to reprimand in that tone. You overstepped your boundary. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
Again, it goes right over your head. Quit being like every religious nut in the world, and use your brain, and stop reading only what you want to read.
Again, meaningless words. I didn't judge your education or even it's level. I judged your lack of understanding your own life.
No! And, if you don't like it, get over yourself.
A child? Didn't treat you like one. And, there is no boundary for me to overstep. Your words are your own downfall.
Again, get over yourself. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT!!!!!!
Cagsil, all your words are meaningless, so please keep them to yourself.
And, now you're claiming to have the right to tell me to keep my words to myself. Oh, so now you're infringing on my rights of free speech.
Perfect example of foolishness and a lack of understanding of life.
So, I guess, you know exactly where you can go....
At this point, I see that this exchange has deteriorated into childish stupidity, just because you feel the need to have everyone see life exactly the way you see it.
I have to go now, but I do believe that you and I will never meet at a compromise. I will leave it at that, because sooner or later one, or both of us will be banned.
Again, you let your own words defeat you. *shakes head side to side.
I won't get banned, because I won't insult you. But then again, if you get insulted, it's because of your own ego. I'm sure you'll dismiss my words as just the ramblings.
However, I'll leave you with one note you should be aware of?
LIFE - all human life is the same. The concept "Life" is exactly the same for all human beings. We go through the same problem, we all eat, we all breathe and we all sleep.
If you don't understand that or cannot see how we are all the same, then I feel sorry for you.
I never in my wildest dreams thought I'd see the day,and it pains me to say this,But I agree wholeheartedly with your post!
Now I shall go and drink a large quantity of Hemlock.
Well, Your right religion is the excuse for the cause of many HUGE wars...RELIGION!!!!!! There is a HUGE difference between RELIGION and being a TRUE follower of CHRIST and CHRIST"S PRINCIPLES. It is hard to explain though I will try. See Religion is in my opinion a set of man made rules and guidelines to follow if you are to include yourself in the so-called Christina religion... ACCORDING TO THE SCRIBES AND PHARISEES... but after Chrsit came ..It wasn't about the rules to follow nor was it about sacrifices of animals to show your love (kinda like that) more it was to LOVE OTHERS, DO GOOOD, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS (TOP TEN) , be THOUGHTFUL, LOVING, ETC... Not slaughter an animal to show a sacrifice of love.
You have to seperate the human nature and the way we act from the CRISTIAN PRINCIPLES. As human beings we are a species prone to acts of agression, territorial, etc so we protect and even fight for what we believe to be OUR THOUGHTS AND BELIEFS AND LOVED ONES... But that is everyone.. Muslim, Buddhist,Atheist,Christian, and so on... Often we get so caught up in the defending our belief part that we forget the other parts or cammandment if you will....Seperate HUMAN ACTS from THE RELIGION ITSELF. Often people are zealous of something they believe in RELIGION or OTHERWISE. If you read the comments left to take a left jab at religion you will see that even the non-religious believe what they believe to be THE ONLY TRUTH!!!!
No. My stance is I do not have the truth. But I am sure that you do not.
And using ALL CAPS is considered to be shouting and rude. If you want to emphasize, please use italics or bold - click the button marked "Formatting Tips" at the bottom right when you are replying.
I still ask why you think your beliefs should automatically be respected? I respect your right to believe whatever you wish - but what makes you think the belief itself deserves respect? Where do you draw the line?
Sorry about the all caps thing..I never thought of it like that allthough I have been told it was shouting. I thought it was more to me as drawing attention to a word.
I think that all belief should be respected. If we as humans went around rejecting all beliefs (religious or otherwise)simply because it was not logical to us then there would be a lot of idiotic people in the world. Should you apply my perception of truth and think it as the only truth out there...absolutely not... I would not suggest that to anyone! But, there is the respect thing. How I see it is that if we are to learn from others and gather an informed assumption of religion or any other topic then we are going to have to respect the thing we want to learn about or discuss. If your asking questions why not respect the thought behind the answer and even ponder the thought before slamming it or ridiculing it.
Drawing a line?Is there a line to be drawn in the area of education and understanding? I think not. I believe if the mind can think it or see it then the mind can then make an informed decision..perhaps Christianity is not your thought of what truth is or can be...I dont know...but can't you listen and respect the thought or belief? If not then why even journey into the thought and questions phase? Im not here to "gather the seemingly lost souls" so-to-speak..I'm simply here to insert my thought. If one does not respect my thought, thats there perogative and I do not bash anyone for that. But If a person asks ,why cant the asker respect the answerer and his or her thought on the matter? Religion or otherwise.
If your mind is already closed to growth in education of religion (in this case) and you have developed your view of it then why are they here? Why are they talking about this subject? Why ask anything?
Don't worry about shouting, sometimes we need to shout... for instance you are standing on the deck of a ship, having ben rescued from a shark infested sea, and you see some folk swimming or playing catch right were the sharks are heading for.... do you shout a warning?
Really? I believe that all people who think there is a god should be strangled (irony). And you respect that belief?
Actually - It only seems to be people who hold a completely irrational belief that has been proven to be garbage think this.
Wonder why that is. .....................
I sure do..and thats the truth...HOW DO YOU DEFINE RESPECT..and dont wiki it this time. lol...To me TRUTH is simply found and defined by individuals ..they get their own truth by their own standards.. I respect your idea of truth..strangle on buddy... KARMA IS A ...well you know! LOLAY
Proven to be garbage? LMAO....totally LMAO.... How do you prove someone to be garbage..AND BY WHO'S DEFINITION OF GARBAGE? PREY TELL...LMAO... Who defines garbage..success..happiness? Everyone has their own definition of each of these...
Oh and by the way,,,,CAPS ON BY YOUR DEFINITION! LOL... Your conversation was intelligent to some degree before you got beligerant as if you were mad that I MADE A GOOD POINT and it SERIOUSLY pissed you off! Now it is just ignorant. I was trying to gain insight into your perspective...now I scoff it. GOODBYE!
Well - thanks for proving my point. Apparently you do not respect my beliefs - in fact - you scoff at them. But - you demand respect for yours.
Typical christian. Thanks.
First you made a weak attempt to set me up for you to have some idiotic proof of "typical Christian" behavior. When I did not fall for it you came at me harder and harder with weaker and more disgusting statements. I said I scoff your perspective on your petty and ignorant DEFINITION OF PEOPLE WHOM YOU REFER TO AS GARBAGE...That is WHAT I SCOFF!!! So please...continue to bash religious views...it occurs to me (through your numerous slams against Chrsitianity) that you thought you would appeal to my human nature of defense toward what I believe in and get me to rebuke and make a mockery of your belief ideas...so that you could say TYPICAL CHRISTIAN ...well I NEVER FELL FOR YOUR MOCKERIES and LMAO...If you want to have an idiotic slam on me I CAN GIVE YOU ONE...IM LAUGHING AT YOUR INSULTING HATRED RIGHT THIS SECOND!!!!
I respect all thought and religion ... but I cant respect the thought that religious people are garbage..I refuse to. Nobody except child molesters and the IRS (lol) are garbage... But you did refer to PEOPLE as garbage and i quote "..Actually - It only seems to be people who hold a completely irrational belief that has been proven to be garbage think this"... You said "people who...has been proven to be garbage ....."
Either way, your thought that people should be strangled for their religious thought is disgusting to me but i dont slam you for it!
So - you respect all thought and religion - except the one you find offensive. Me too.
Love the lie you managed to create about me though. You are a genuine Christian all right. Not worried about bearing false witness at all. LOL The belief has been proven to be garbage. And you are confirming that right now.
Dear me. Lying for Jesus.
With all due respect ...I respect ALL i repeat ALL thought and religion ..besides the filthy thought that you are able to define ANYONE AS GARBAGE... call me what you like..laugh..ridicule..whatever. You said PLAINLY...PEOPLE...PEOPLE...PEOPLE ..reread your writing. Belief has been proven to be garbage? Bwaaaahahahahah...How can you take ones belief and define it as garbage? That is weak and pathetic to assume you are in a position ot define a belief as GARBAGE! Sir, I have tried to talk to you with dignity and respect. I wanted to see why you believe such things about religion (specifically Christinaity) But it appears to me that you get LOUD ...ANGRY...HATEFUL..and MEAN when someone makes a VALID POINT! So I am going to walk away from this conversation. NOT CAUSE I HAVE NO MORE POINTS TO MAKE..NOT CAUSE YOU MADE A GOOD POINT..BUT BECAUSE YOU GET SLANDEROUS AND BELIGERANT WHEN I MAKE A VALID POINT!!!! WHEN YOU ARE CAPABLE OF A GIVE AND TAKE CONVERSATION ..PLEASE....LET ME KNOW. I thought all "CONVERSATIONS" were a two way street. I see they are NOT WITH YOU!
As for your reply Lying for Jesus... I found that a personal slam at me with underlying slants against religion with a nasty dose of hate for the idea.
Either way... We will all find out one day. I hope your right. My vengeful GOD might strike you doen and SMITE you with a huge lightenenig bolt before damning you soul to HELL....LMAO...Awwwww you know you laughed. I knew you were going to say something like that...BEAT YA TO THE PUNH! LMAO..... seriously... You could tae more thought to the deep pasionate thoughts others hold dear. YOU MAY SEEM LIKE LESS OF AN A**HOLE.
Once again you are telling me you respect all thoughts and beliefs - except the one you are lying about me having.
I was merely pointing out the facts that:
1. Some beliefs are offensive and you will not respect them.
2. It only seems to be people who hold on to a totally irrational and offensive belief system that demand all beliefs are respected.
And then selectively do not respect others beliefs. You have not tried to talk to me with dignity and respect - you have shouted at me when I disagree with you.
Once again - I did not call anyone garbage. I said their belief system had been proven to be garbage. And come on - the facts speak for themselves. Son of a Carpenter needs the Vatican built in his honor and the Pope goes around protecting child molesters and telling Africans not to use condoms? Dear me.
MARK *** you said***Love the lie you managed to create about me though. You are a genuine Christian all right. Not worried about bearing false witness at all. LOL The belief has been proven to be garbage. And you are confirming that right now.
I had a nice chuckle over this one. Mark, your an intelligent person. A little bitter maybe..but intelligent. If you ONCE stepped outside of your bitter thoughts and saw my perspective ..you toomight find some answers to your questions. I know you probably dont mean it when you say the one thing I said I refuse to respect (CAPS) AND THAT IS THE FACT THAT ALL CHRSITIANS SHOULD BE STRANGLED..come on Mark... You know that was entrapment and I had a huge laugh... As for the "fasle witness remark..well I told you about 5 times that am not here to "Witness" anything to you or anyone else. If I were I would quote scripture. I am here to interject an opinion! So call me false witness..shallow..garbage..or otherwise..but I think your fairly intelligent and you write well... I think if you were capable of being open minded you would make a very very very formidable oponent (for lack of better words) Though somehow I am sure you will use and twist the word oponent Thanks again for the commentary..I have enjoyed this oquestion quite a bit.
Open minded does not mean blindly believing in nonsense. Yes the strangling was a joke (irony) to point out that you probably are not going to respect that belief. Which you do not. Which makes a mockery of your demand that all beliefs deserve respect.
Sorry - too subtle I guess. Perhaps if I wrote it in ancient Greek and then mistranslated it through 3 or 4 languages you would understand?
And still you have avoided my original question because you are too busy defending your ridiculous beliefs.
Why not answer that instead of creating this semantic argument?
as said, Einstein believed in God and scientifically backed it..you "nutcase" need to find another scientist, shallow interpreter of what you know nothing of...ha ha..
Einstein did not believe in god. He made reference to god not needing anything from lonely pathetic humans. To think that a god would have a need for human existence is pathetic in nature.
Hi friend Cagsil
If Einstein had believed in the Creator- God Allah YHWH; had every body followed him and believed in God?
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
Your are right! To think GOD would have a need for human existence is truly pathetic! God has no NEED for anything ..He created human beings as a creative expression of LOVE...
In response to the Einstein remark: Einstein in his last days said "I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many different languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God."
In a nutshell he said he can neither confirm nor deny the existence of God .. but he said he is no religious or non-religious affiliate
people cause wars, that happen to believe in a religion, the religions themselves don't cause wars.
Here is a more fair approach, is to go to the texts, and the prophets of a given religion, and see there, if the religion itself endorses warson others, to spread its cause or not. Its very unfair to accuse the whole religion and its people, when the religion itself doesn't endorse it.
For instance, if your religion's prophet uses the tip of the sword for converting, "or else" then that religion does support it. If the prophet acts opposite of it, and taught opposite of it, then that one doesn't.
You will falsely accuse otherwise, and be no closer to the truth if you don't. You also will be self deluding.
Interesting. I've always welcomed and enjoyed your questions. I've never resorted to name calling of any kind. I agree, though, any attacks of the like should never be practiced by anyone professing to believe in a God of mercy.
What's on your mind? I would love to debate or just answer questions.
have you talked to a Christian priest or member of the clergy? They could probably talk your ears off
I don't know why Christians might resort to name calling here or anywhere. Perhaps, they should examine the true definition of Christianity. Or perhaps, they are so use to slander and belittling from a lot of religious and non-religious people all around. Either way, I am Christian and I really don't think my God's word is up for "debate" but I would feel glad to answer any questions or reply to any thoughts you have. Isn't life about sharing and growing and learning from each other? Sometimes people call themselves Christian but have little or no idea what the true meaning of Christianity is. They say "Im Christian" because mom and dad , or grandma or grandpa was "Christian" . I myself have found that wars are started over religion. LOL..In my fiery zealous days I was "debating" gods word with a fellow "Christian" and it became physical. I laugh at myself and the other two women now..but then I was sure I was in the right. LOL AT MYSELF. So what questions do you have?
Why is your avator Einstein when you believe in such an illogical premise as Christianity? That's my question.
When Einstein began his studies on theories of relativity was it not ILLOGICAL TO HIM AS WELL? Sometimes faith proves the greater idea.
Maybe your question can be answered best by Einstein "I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many different languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God.
Therefore the greatest mind of all time (arguably) and all his scientic knowledge still did not deny or confirm an existance of GOD! I choose to identify with Christians yet keep an open mind for a better explaination of the TRUTH I SEEK! Thank you!!
"The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this."
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere.... Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."
-- Albert Einstein.
Your right!!!! It was said that he said exactly that...LOL... But in a public statement Einstein said " I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many different languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God."
This was prior to his death..He had grown quite a bit and had done far more living since his small statement you quoted. Perhaps, Einstein too was smart enough not to totally discount the idea of a HIGHER POWER AT WORK!
Oh - sorry - I thought you subscribed to the ridiculous notion of God becoming his own son to save us. LOL
Which - oddly - is utterly and absolutely not the same as a "higher power".
Sure - I am not closed to the slim possibility that there is one of an infinite number of "higher powers".
But - like Einstein - I totally reject your ridiculous belief in the Christian faith and consider it to be childish nonsense.
If there is a higher power, there must be a highest power....
I never said there was a "higher power". I just do not totally reject the possibility of "a higher power."
And if there is such a thing - I am absolutely certain you are not a representative.
Never said I was a representative, even if Christ say...
John 14:11-13 (King James Version)
11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
But we are talking of a HIGHEST POWER, I simply discovered that Christ was THAT HIGHEST POWER....
Ephesians 1:20-22 (King James Version)
20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church....
More than a 'slight' possibility I think!
LOLO That you think you are telling me what the highest power sez
Mark, I appreciate your giving response to my thoughts nd the thoughts of others.. I really do. Call the higher power what you will but I do believe their is one. WHY YOU MIGHT ASK? Well...because I have had too many experiences with things I can't explain to NOT BELIEVE! I do believe Jesus is the SON of God ..why not? Just because you percieve it as RIDICULOUS dont mean I HAVE TO OR I AM IGNORANT... Have you ever created anything? I mean came up with great theories or philosophies or invented genius things? Have you ever allowed your mind to go past the small things you were taught or ideas you developed? THIS IS NOT A PERSONAL SLAM!!! I PROMISE!!! Im trying to help you develop a different perception of KNOWLEDGE ITSELF... Prior to the invention of light bulbs ...did anyone really come up with the idea of it.. it had to be ridiculous and ignorant even insane to some..the point being...someone opened their mind up bigger than what they were taught and found something new.
How would you know the way to identify a REPRESENTATIVE if you totally reject Christianity as ILLOGICAL PREMISES? Surely you won't argue that you are now a biblical scholar. If you were you wouldn't need answers to your questions and you might find your own statements a bit ILLOGICAL and perhaps ONE SIDED. Please, don't act as if you know how to spot A representative of the faith if you have so many unanswered questions. And before you take a bit of offense to that stement please understand that I mean NO DISRESPECT TO YOU ... Im just interjecting my own thought into the matter. I am certainly no REPRESENTATIVE ..I am merely a person in search of my version of TRUTH regardless of the religious affiliation. I DO BELIEVE JESUS WAS THE SON OF GOD! REGARDLESS OF THE ILLOGICAL PARTS ONE MIGHT ARGUE THAT COME WITH THAT BELIEF! I want to learn, know, understand all things... If you have light for me then by all means I DO NOT REJECT YOUR THEORIES...I am more than willing to step outside of myself to take a bigger deeper look into things.
I think you have totally misunderstood the point that Mark was making here. You seem to be regarding your illogical God of the bible, as synoymous with "a higher power"
I think Mark is stating that your God is not "the higher power" therefore you are no representative of "the higher power"
Yes, there could be a higher power, but it is certainly not the entity in the bible, that's for certain.
the entity in the Bible? Tell me of this entity as you percieve it...PLEASE... I would like you perception into the entity you despise yet deny exists. LOL
The entity doesn't exist. Walt Disney created many entities(characters)that did not exist, yet he gave each a personality. This was the same premise used by the psychotics who wrote the bible.
But the personality they gave Him is one of a brutally evil and unjust creature, who uses His might the way a spoiled, mentally unbalanced child would. Again, I'm certain that this is NOT God. I'll keep searching.
BTW, I don't despise the entity(it's fiction), I despise many of the attributes assigned to this character, and the charlatans who created Him.
It seems that there are a lot of hunters in these here woods, wasteing a lot of effort; looking to kill an imaginary rabbit, and the attributes assigned to it.
Reminds me of Don Quixote .
getrite... I wasn't speaking of anything you said...I was talking to Mark Knowles about a statement he had made. But thanks anyways... And how might you explain your thought of an entity non-existant? Please if you can ...prove this idea of my GOD being non-existant. And for goodness sake dont do the typical response of throwing a website or ten acres of bullcrap at me... keep it simple... I am a simple minded CHRISTIAN after all. lol... by the way...the shallow words people throw toward me or religion dont upset me so DONT BOTHER..I get a little kick out of it
You would certainly know how to spot a 'representative' and am 100% sure none have graced the pages of the religious forums at Hubpages.
It is my idea that a representative of Christ would be intent on following Christ and his teaching and principles. Mistakes and lack of understanding would not disqualify a representative. If a corporation hires a new employ (persay) and has the understanding that they will represent a product yet have no real idea on the product , it is understood that mistakes will take place and false representation made at one point or another until the person gets a clearer understanding. NOBODY IS PERFECT
Not to be nasty or unkind but I think Jewels was speaking of a reprehensive as in SENT of God. Such as Gabriel was sent to Daniel as a reprehensive of God delivering a message from God. God would take his business too seriously to send an inexperienced reprehensive to do his bidding.
I think that a true prophet is the lowest level of gods representives. And I also doubt if there has been any on these on hub pages.
I don't think that the desciples considered them selves
to be representives of God. The desciples and all believers are said to be brothers in Christ.
just my opinion.
No, he didn't think it was illogical at all.
You mean, guesswork brings on greater ideas than hard work and rigor?
In other words, Einstein never claimed a god existed. Does that somehow support your gods existence? Is there a point here?
Too bad you're seeking a truth and not a reality. You're welcome!!
All hard work and rigor begins with a theory or as one might refer to it "guesswork"
The point is simply this. I was asked why Einstein was my avatar, after that, religion and a comparison to Einstein were made. I simply brought a few points to the table that even one of the greatest minds of all time was not able to prove or disprove an existence of GOD and he was man enough to admit that he had no answers nor sought any!
ALL REALITY COMES FROM A TRUTH! Please ..I beg you !!!!! PROVE ME WRONG ON THIS. I will eat your words if you can! Otherwise, we can go on for weeks. My version of truth differs from yours...who is right? Can I prove your wrong ABSOLUTELY NOT! CAN YOU??? NOPE...
YOUR WELCOME And thank you for engaging me in a conversation worthy of reply.
What is wrong with seeking a truth? Truth is all there really is in this world, and reality coincides with it. Why would you suggest they can't both be in harmony I wonder?
There seems to be a suggestion all along in these posts, that if you don't agree with some of the atheists, that you are not living in a reality nor thinking clearly . When I read everything, and look at the world, and what best explains it all, its why I DO think and believe the way I do.
I think any belief system or lack of belief, that endorses the putting down of others when engaging with them, fails right off. It fails you, and no one is doing that to you. We all choose things, but blindly following in atheistic hatred isn't a good thing, imo. On moral grounds, its a failing worldview, right when it comes out of the gate, when they act so much like their "leaders" do. You know, the top leading atheists that write books, etc. Look for holes there, they are everywhere, and the very odd hatred is just weird to me. It doesn't work out in the end, and doesn't lead to good societies and peace among people at all.
Truth is meaningless in reality. Your so-called truth may be quite different from another so-called truth, and another, and another, ad naseum...
In other words, you have formed your own personal version of a truth. Well done.
That would fully encapsulate all of the worlds religions.
Making stuff up doesn't support your argument.
I have found, that when it comes down to the educated, and studied on the subject, that atheists turn out to the much more illogical of the two, in other words, its opposite of what you say.
I say this, because I have seen the biggest atheists debate very educated christians, and struggle very much to not resort to ad hom attacks, and faulty reasoning when in a corner.
Its becoming clear to me, that many have not done that much research here, on watching the "big dogs" if you will, go to debating one another. There is some good stuff out there. You will see a LOT of similar topics being discussed, and it is true debate format.
Search, on youtube if you want, Dinesh D'souza and Hitchens debate, William Lane Craig debates an atheist, and Greg Koukl now also has debated some big ones. Its so worth your while, especially if you are the truth of all these topics. Each of these people have written books and have great websites as well. I guarantee you,they can answer every single last question you have, but using logic and good reasoning, and saying they don't know when they don't. I won't be able to be on here much, as I have both dads in the hospital, currently, and I am working more than ever. I wanted to give the truly hungry for truth people here, something big to chew on and stew over.
This is great! I've yet to see a believer be logical in the least, especially on these forums!
I'm way ahead of you brother. I have watched those Youtube debate with Hitchen, Dawkins, Sam Harris, William Craig Lane and others--even Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron.
I have even watched the debates on the Bacteria Flagellum. Still, I'm not convinced that God created Adam & Eve in some unknown garden paradise. There is no reasonable evidence for that.
My knowledge on the subject is not the issue. The issue is the perception of my words filtered through the minds of the believer. The difference between what I say and what you hear is amazing.
Sorry about your Dads.
You immediately accused Christians of name-calling, when I can tell you for sure that it's usually NOT the Christian who does the name-calling to begin with, or even to end with!
So since in your first post you went into attack-mode, I doubt there can be any "honest" debate with you at all.
Brenda, I completely agree with you here. It makes me question the whole point of trying to give good and fair responses to people that don't seem to really want to engage in that, and also are just being so incredibly rude. It is nice that you and others have tried though. No one can say people didn't try to give good answers.
I can! I think some people resort to name calling because they cant come up with a good point to argue back about.
Optimus, its true what you say, and I have seen it going on for years now with certain types of people. They are ad hominem attacks, and they are lacking in real intellectual debate about the real issues. If we all just disagree on things, that should be able to be talked about and we all go our merry way. This other stuff though, indicates deeper unresolved issues, and a deeper doubt is sensed from them, in my opinion. If their opposition is wrong, why not just share with them, and maybe feel badly for them or something, but move on, and avoid the nasty tactics?
Its defensive in posture in debate to do such things.
Wonderful - passive aggressive, attacking without directly attacking. Condescending without actually saying anything direct. Superb. Lovely. I especially like the "deeper unresolved issues" that suggest a caring that is totally absent. "Lacking in intellectual debate" was very good also. A little close to a direct personal insult, but only just.
Very, very well done, random nonentity hiding behind a fake user name and never standing up and being counted.
I must admit I am very appreciative of people like you. It reminds me of why I despise religion. Thank you very much. It feels good to be validated and really reminds me why peopel follow religion. It gives them a sense of personal power that is other wise lacking. And - as a side benefit - they never have to deal with their own inadequacies.
I totally understand why you follow along and I don't blame you. By far the easier option than facing the inner you.
Good for you - knowing your limitations. Many cannot do that and I sort of admire your acceptance of being a lesser person instead of looking deep inside. Probably make you feel better to stop attacking those of us who prefer the hard path and develop ethical standards that we actually follow. But - I am not your therapist - although I suggest you bring it up next session.
I think that we should answer the challenge by presenting some tough questions and answering them instead of proving his point and continue avoiding the questions.
Lets stay away from meaningless questions that only has one purpose and that is to derail the discusion.
I have always wanted to know what justification people have for Misinterpreting Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass til all these things be fulfilled
But no one knows what day or hour.
Jerami, you miss the point entirely. Christians aren't able to answer the hard questions because they would be forced to lie about their religion. If they actually told the truth, their beliefs and religions would crumble to dust.
Just in response to the original question: Why are christians more defensive than others, namely Jews? Let me just start out by stating that the Jewish people deny the Savior. They do not necessarily speak the worst attrocities about Him as christians do. They don't believe in Christ's divinity, therefore cannot call Him a miserable failure who's father will burn people in fire for all eternity. Nor do they believe that God as they worship Him will do this to anybody. So that right there shows why they need not be as defensive as "Christians". The christian church is full of historical attrocities. And to top it off, they still believe that their savior will not save very many. So they have reason to be defensive. Personally, I believe the christian church to be the number 1 example of what the book of Revelation calls "the Whore of Babylon". The church is refered to as the world and we are commanded to come out of "her".
There's a fundamental difference between a religion with a dogma (Christianity) and one without (Judaism).
Dogma, by definition, requires belief; when that belief is questioned, it can provoke defensiveness.
Judaism does not pretend to have all the answers and the religion itself is an unending tradition of inquiry.
Christians avoid the hard questions because Christians, myself included, are at a loss to know how to answer those questions. Most Christians are ignorant of their own faith.
That would most certainly give validity to the fact that Christians are mostly indoctrinated into their belief system as children, hence they believe without knowing why or what they believe. Good answer, spacedout1.
Hi Q, its possible that people are believing the truth about a thing, but not exactly know every answer to every mystery and question. We all do that with many things in our life and universe. We can only know what we can know. Yes, many christians do not know why they believe, what they believe, but if Jesus was right, and they follow him, they are still on a right path over the person that rejects the message of Jesus.
Jesus was worth believing, and never ever said that people must be able to ask every question to the T. Still, its a great exercise that many more are engaging in, than ever, that is the study of why the Christian world view is still the best one out there. More books and sites are dedicated to this than ever. What it comes down to are the facts of the matter, and good reasoning and logic, and those things, and science can all point to the truth. If held beliefs clutter up one's thinking though, that is not a good thing. You must have an open mind and seek the truth. There is faith, but not a blind leap of faith that is required.
Thanks for clarifying my position in hell and the conflict Christians cause by not know what or why they believe in their religion.
That would be the world view that has caused more wars and bloodshed on the planet throughout history and continues to cause conflict around the world, hatred of other religions, other people, etc. etc...?
Then, it would appear that what we talked about with truth went in one ear and out the other?
That is the faith of Christianity, blind. You have demonstrated that in spades already.
The operative word is "if"
"'If' Jesus was right." ---We have no way of knowing that, but you are going on your emotional hunch that Jesus was worth believing. Eventhough your logical mind is trying to come through, you prefer to suppress it in lieu of irrational fear.
Sounds like a Sheeple's view.
Please take your advice.
I think you may want to be careful, to not lump a whole group of people together and make a statement. You do share your experience, but in the main question, is the suggestion that Christians avoid hard questions. That is simply an untrue idea. You may not be aware of many/any that you have come across, but it doesn't mean there aren't any. Stand to Reason, is a wonderful site, dedicated to the questions, and welcome the harshest of critics. Every Sunday there is even a live show, and open to all people to ask the tough questions. I would recommend going there, and looking around. You will find almost every topic you can think of covered, in an article or in their podcasts. No, I am not affiliated in any way with Stand to Reason. I was like you, and looking for people to answer the really tough questions out there. Its much better for people, if they don't know an answer, to just say , "I don't know". You will undoubtedly run into people though, that try to pass if off, or have too much pride to admit it, then both sides get frustrated, which is no good.
I have found the opposite to be true, of the name calling, etc, personally. I don't lump people that do that, that have a certain belief or lack of beliefs, all together. Some don't do that.
Bring it on, I can debate as you call it forever, I for one think 90 percent or more christian are born onto what they do not know as many religions, experience is a different answer entirely....now I am not one to love hub forums...they are full of shallow nothingness, but send me a question, I am not your average christian. in fact I offend a few, but have actually read the bible many claim to know but never read.
I have a question.
Why do most Christians not believe Jesus when he said "Verily I say unto you, THIS generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled" Mark 24:34 ?
Jerami, how do you know what most christians believe and not believe of Jesus' words? That a lot of knowing. Also you emphasize the this, and it appears you are just looking for a contradiction, for your own reasons.
Likely, if the bible were made up, and that was an "oops" on Jesus' part, they would have just taken it out to cover that "mistake". OR, it could be there is more going on there than meets the eye, and a word study in original languages may help, etc.
Maybe its a clear contradiction to you, and why you reject Jesus if you do, I don't know. But the "knowing" of what christians believe and don't believe just made me wonder.
Good for you angel, keep up the studying and learning as long as you live. Test things always, and don't just take anyone's words for things. Sounds like you already do that though.
To be fair, I have engaged many Christians who have been willing to have in depth discussions about their views. Ignorant people, regardless of belief system, are frightened of opposition.
I would not consider my self as being frightened. Though I am a bit reluctant to beat my head against an unmoveable brick wall.
Hi Davina, I have found that ignorance breeds all kinds of problems. A good remedy is to get smarter and study and learn more all the time. I think its a good practice for instance to challenge ones own beliefs, because its possible people can be wrong. We don't have to have the absolute truth to know that its impossible for us all to be right on all sides. What you do then, is take the world view that has the most to back it up and makes the most sense of the world, universe and people that we do see. Some worldviews fail that test, and others rise to the top. If one's chosen world view fails, its not the fault of those that believe one opposite of you. (not speaking to you there in particular, speaking in general to all).
What ever is true, will have the most to back it up, and will have us go against our own moral inner code, etc.
The reason most American Christians in this day and age evade, change the subject or otherwise resort to name calling is because they have not studied their bibles to the level and degree they should have; they know the answers are in there...they know their God is real.
Typically their reaction reveals a lack of study on their part. A great many answers are in their bibles and if they took the time to study as they ought most things they could answer pretty readily.
Study to show thyself approved...
If you don't know say you don't know then research your bible to find the answer...
Yes, it is interesting that most atheists know scriptures better than the believers. Doesn't that tell you something about who might be wrong about gods?
Terced Ojos, you make an excellent point there. They may have the truth, be on the right path and can feel confident in it. I worry when people come along with ill intentions and try to trip them and trick them into an almost stuttering point, when really they are using tons of fallacious and faulty arguments and reasonings. Christians really need to study, and more are than ever, or at least be willing to say, "I don't know". That is better than getting frustrated and lashing back, which is often what is desired from less scrupulous types, so they can then feel vindicated in speaking ill of them and more.
I would encourage everyone out there, no matter who you are or what you believe, to challenge your own beliefs first and hardest, not others. If you have the truth, you need to know it, and don't be afraid that it may fail or not. Just be careful that many use really bad arguments and try to make you feel stupid for believing what you do. No one wants to feel stupid, and doubts set in. So you wonder if you are wrong, and back to the point, study it to find out for yourself. Don't trust though, people that use a lot of negativity and put downs, and lack in good and logical points. thats a red flag right there they are not in ownership of truth.
Now my question:
Why do atheists hang out in religion forums making endless irrational and illogical generalizations?
You forgot to mention the name calling and condescending remarks that atheists make. They also like to present strawman arguments.
My question seems simple why cant any anti theist answer this?
Christians do not express opinions, they regurgitate their indoctrinated beliefs.
they push their "beliefs" on others.
Your beliefs require too much dishonesty.
Absolutely. Since religion is based on superstition, and is only make-believe and imagination, it can't stand up to logic. They can either accept logic...or try to force others to abandon their minds. They always choose the latter
Believers don't see it that way. In fact, they are unable to conceptualize a world without their gods. To them, that makes as much sense as flying pigs.
But cant answer one question:
Why do atheists hang out in religion forums making endless irrational and illogical generalizations?
Your question is loaded with false accusations. We ask logical questions, just as you would if you were investigating something.
Believe it or not, some of us want to help you shake your delusion, because that's what it is. There is no evidence in support of a God.
getitrite, you accuse others, again, of what you are clearly doing yourself, and this makes no sense to me if you have truth on your side. Why the put downs, by the way? I haven't seen an answer for that one yet. I don't see you asking logical questions either, by the way. People are actually asking you good questions, and I think you just don't like that maybe? Please don't get mad a people for doing that though, its actually a good thing for each of us to look within to why we do what we do, and believe and not believe what we do.
Your question is loaded with false accusations. We ask logical questions, just as you would if you were investigating something.
Believe it or not, some of us want to help you shake your delusion, because that's what it is. There is no evidence in support of a God.
False accusations ? Are you a theist or an anti-theist? Do you have empirical proof that a potential intelligent designer as a reasonable cosmological model is a delusion?
DE-LU-SION~ Psychiatry- A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence.
That doesn't mean that that creator is the one you worship. What about the other 30,000 denominations?
I asked for the invalidating evidence remember?
Do you have empirical proof that a potential intelligent designer as a reasonable cosmological model is a delusion?
Q, why do you use such ridiculous examples, which are not so veiled insults really? I am wondering if such tactics worked on you in the past? No one wants to be wrong and stupid, and if enough effort is exerted onto you, maybe you will give in? I don't know for sure, and can't speak for you. You could just answer, that No, you don't have the empirical proof, or that you don't know. Instead, you answer Yes, with a ridiculous example. Its becoming hard to take you seriously at all. If you aren't careful, people may start asking why atheists can't answer the hard questions.
If you think they are veiled insults, then you are taking a religious ideology personally, which is not my fault.
The answer was ridiculous because it had to match the question.
(Q)The answer was ridiculous because it had to match the question.
Troll speak for "I don't have an answer so I choked"
So Q, do you still not have an answer to that good question? Its a great one.
Do you have empirical proof that a potential intelligent designer as a reasonable cosmological model is a delusion?
If you don't, then you don't have proof its a delusion, and I think its good that people encourage you to look at your own reasoning or possible lack of. Its a fair question, and you tend to talk big. I have seen a lot of veiled and then not so veiled insults. There is simply no reason for it, yet you do it. Noone here ever did anything to you.
The claim of an intelligent designer without an observation or a shred of evidence would suggest delusion.
We can find the proof in any given post from any given believer making that claim.
The claim was belief despite invalidating evidence to the contrary denotes delusion. The claim wasn't "give me proof of God " or your delusional
The onus was show me invalidating evidence.Otherwise an Intelligent Designer as a cosmological model is just as reasonable as any.
I don't believe that the universe has always existed; entropy and infinite regress forbid me to believe that. If it began sometime in the past and was "caused " would also be infinite regress.
I believe that the universe had a beginning . This is the most reasonable explanation to me considering the Laws of Physics. Now whether it was ex nihilo or a singularity involving "infinite" density etc with a complete disregard for the fundamental laws of physics ,general relativity ,even time itself.
A reasonable conclusion at that juncture is not a "natural event" Its a supra-natural event. Whether anyone one is willing to admit it or not .That'
s what it took.
The question remains is that hypothetical
supra-natural event "intelligent"?
Well, it definitely makes its possible.
In the world of fundamental elementary particles world we speculate things that "wink in an out of existence" and behavior like quantum entanglement, as they leave the world of physics and the theories go almost metaphysical to the point of wondering whats real and whats not , and maybe a little of both?
All that to spontaneously spawn something to ponder it all?
Why would non-believers be drawn to such notions as faith ? it seems they are looking for something , a meaning ,or to somehow convince themselves of what they intuitively reject?
"it seems they are looking for something , a meaning ,or to somehow convince themselves of what they intuitively reject?"
Pot:You are really black, Kettle!
You would have a point if I was an atheist in a religion forum , but I am a believer in a believer forum, no?
PS You're on my turf remember?
* All Forums
* Religion & Beliefs
My beliefs are just as good as yours. You don't like mine and vice verso!
I have a point anyway! You just don't like it!
I don't think so, my points are logical! You would not understand. You dwell on myth and superstition.
Yes, quantum mechanics and cosmogony does seem like myth and superstition doesn't it? But yea I like to dwell on it, discuss it and speculate on it . Beats the heck outa thinking I possess all knowledge and have eradicated faith "in my own mind".That's a comfort zone for the weak intellect.
Now take it to the next step, and prove that your particular belief is not a delusion, since you are on a roll.
It is only reasonable with an observation or evidence or the claim is meaningless.
There is plenty of evidence to suggest the universe came into existence, although I have yet to see entropy or infinite regress as part of the evidence. And of course, you started out by saying, "I believe" as opposed to "I understand"
That isn't reasonable at all, it is merely a faith based conclusion, no evidence whatsoever.
Not at all, you are adding more empty assertions to an already vacuous assertion.
Not a chance, I see no metaphysics in physics at all, neither do scientists. That would be yet another faith based conclusion.
You got that wrong, too. Well done.
Excellent question Pheonix. I'm curious to the answer myself.
Fear. They might have some doubts of their own
Absolutely. Since religion is based on superstition, and is only make-believe and imagination, it can't stand up to logic. They can either accept logic...or try to force others to abandon their minds. They always choose the latter.
I feel badly for responding to you at all now, Getitrite, for in the above comment, I see you are just about putting people down, whole groups of people. What you say, isn't true either, unless in particular cases it may be true, but I know for a fact, that you just must not have really done our homework on these subjects. You sound as if you have been reading some of the books and literature of some leading atheists. They tend to spout off like you are here, and its actually kind of scary, because they don't have good truth and logic backing them up. Think about it, IF they did, they would not be acting so nasty to whole groups of people that haven't done anything to them.
A kind warning to you, be careful who you look up to and follow, that would encourage a belief system that supports such behavior. That is how people act, when they don't have the truth on their side, and don't want, or can't accept the truth. It fails immediately as a belief system for many reasons, but esp for this one obvious one.
I didn't mean to offend, because I think of my message as more against an illogical premise. The believer is the victim. I too was a devout Christian. I acted just like any other believer.
thanks for that, not sure who it is directed to, Getitrite. I disagree, that the believer is the victim. That is an example of some faulty atheistic reasoning out there, in many books and debates by the leading atheists. If you acted like a believer and follower of Jesus, then I guess I can long for those days gone by, because no one had better teachings on the ways to "be" in this world than Him. Its not an easy path, and he said it would be hard, so in a sense believers can be victims if others victimize them like they did to Jesus. The thing is, he did nothing wrong, and was in the right. No one ever could prove he was wrong, and they went to the ultimate extreme to kill the message. The truth of that message is alive and well and still changing lives, and that is because its true. If its true, it would also explain a lot of what we see in this world, and the anger against that belief system in general. It poses a big threat to atheists for a reason, in my opinion, and it should cause them to dig deeper as to why. Being at odds with the truth is a hard road... but don't take it out on those that do believe differently than you.
I am curious what the illogical premise is that you are referring to as well.
"Absolutely. Since religion is based on superstition, and is only make-believe and imagination, it can't stand up to logic. They can either accept logic...or try to force others to abandon their minds. They always choose the latter."
This is untruth at its best, as I have had the opposite experience. So that it has happened other than you say, shows that you are willing to be dishonest for your own beliefs. Just the stating of things will never make them true. I just wanted to make sure you know you are being called on this stuff. It won't fly. There are too many, that rely on logic, sound reasoning, fairminded debate and that hate the idea of abandoning their minds, that you look foolish when you talk and accuse like that. You should really reconsider your facts, as they are faulty, very obviously. It doesn't bode well that you applied good thinking and reasoning elsewhere to come to your conclusions, when you so clearly don't do it even in a public forum. It kind of makes you a non credible debater. Sorry, trying to help you actually. Sounds like you fell for a bunch of whoppers yourself, but please, don't insult us all by thinking we all will do the same. Thanks
Do they really expect me to abandoned my reasoned beliefs and golden rule philosophy to come join ranks with them and hang out in forums and call others insane ?
Whatever theyre selling dont seem very good or rational
...and, still I won't abdicate my mind for your delusion. You are doing EXACTLY what I predicted. You won't accept reality, and you are trying to shame me into abandoning my mind for your nonsense. I'm sure your God is proud.
Despite your accusatory, bitter rant, your beliefs are still absurd.
"When I talk to Jewish Rabbis or thinkers they would engage me forever, keep the coffee coming and the debates never stop."
Oh ? You actually talk to "thinkers"? wow. You hang out with Jewish Rabbis alot do ya ?
I find the whole thread ,premise, title and particularly your story to be dubious and contrived, quite frankly.
The Christian creed are mythical; even their priests know; they know they can't have any answers. What then they should do? It is very obvious
I am willing to engage in a debate for as long as you guys need. If I run out of sources, I will look it up and come back with a logical answer if this is what you want.
Yes, keep the coffee coming as well.
But I was usually the one who got attacked and name called though. The skeptics can't seem to hold it.
Why do so many people make blanket statements about christians? It seems like that happens a lot on here. Just because some christians
start the name calling doesn't mean that that all christians avoid the hard questions.
I'm not a Christian, not sure what I am but I see a lot of blanket statements made about both Christians and other groups here.
If you read my statement; let me clarify. I'm referring to true believers with nothing in their heart but hate. GOD and real Christians have nothing to do with these nuts here on hubpages. I'm sure you notice that too.
Any christian that starts with name calling either isn't a true follower of Christ, or is choosing to act in ways that dishonor Him. They often are frustrated at the hate directed at them, and are basically tested and lash back. Its no excuse, and I would encourage them to try to keep a level head and call out a bad argument or ad hom argument as they see it. It is a better way to not get run over and **apped on the way some like to do Christians. I agree its not a good way to be no matter what side you are on. I also agree with Bacall too, that some have hatred, but claim otherwise. You can see it. I find it hard that some non theists use these types of people AS the example of christians, and exclude the rest, and feel like they have an agrument. If christianity fails, go after Jesus' and his message and make better arguments. If you look at the failings of christians, well the bible has you beat already, for it already has spoken of and chastised that these thing would happen. Its a tempation of sorts.
Not all Christians avoid the Hard questions? Well, my former church, it's leader, the archdiocese and the Cardinal in New York ALL AVOIDED ANSWERING MY TOUGH QUESTIONS!! I wrote a letter to them asking some basic questions I needed answers to about why my friend's miscarriage in the early 70's was considered "nothing" ny her church, as the priest told her her fetus was not yet a living thing and had no soul, therefore they would not perform a funeral for "it". Years later the Church decided to take a stand on abortion, many believed to keep the christian population growing and said instead that now a fetus is a living thing at conception even!!! Who changed the rules, I asked? Also, since you say God created all of us and loves all of us. why do you hate gays? Or say they are sinners or a scourge on society? You want to say they "choose" that life as if being persecuted all your life is fun and who wouldn't want to jump on that bandwagon eh? I asked them a few of those "hard questions" and do you know what I got? A letter from the Cardinal himself, oh yes, and it said this "We are sorry that you have lost your faith and hope you find your way back to the church again". WHAT????? No, no I will never "Find my way back" to any man-made nonsensical bull**** religion. I will continue to hold God in my heart and keep morons like that far from me.
I'll counter with this: why do non-Christians insist on making overly broad generalizations about Christians? (See what I did there? )
Not all of us are intellectually lazy. And some of us really like to take on the hard questions.
Good counter question Jeff, based on observable behavior (the original question and many more after that), and all without having to put down others in your questions and comments.
I agree completely, that even if there are a few intellectually lazy out there, that it doesn't mean all are that way, it doesn't stand to reason to even assume so. I also like to take on the hard questions. Good for you
The way I see it, the Christian has to convince the debater that reality does not exist. Since no one can do that, they resort to name calling when they fail. They also resort to issuing threats from their God. Sometimes they just ignore questions, because they have nothing to respond with, rationally.
They must, at all cost, defend their delusion.
Reality is infinite and therefor Godlike unless you believe time is finite...
Getitrite and all,
I think that just because many want God, and belief in a God, to be a delusion, will never make it a delusion. There are many beliefs that are out there, among atheists actually, just like this one. (fair to say you are an atheist?)
At the very least, can you please back up your put downs? Or better, stop with your put downs of people, (which is childish and crazy acting, imo), and just discuss with us whats truly on your mind? As of now, you sound like you are enraged or upset, that you would act the way you do in this public forum.
Its not right that you shouldn't be called on your behavior. Could you please stop and just discuss? thanks
Excuse me sir...Can you prove that reality dose exist?
There seems to be an underlying reality which exists independently of our perceptions and thoughts.
But, of course, this could all be a matrix, and reality is only an illusion.
Maybe there are no laws of gravity. Maybe I can jump off of a 100 story building and survive, because gravity is only an illusion.
In conclusion, no I can't prove that objective reality exists, because I only have five dull senses to work with. But those senses have kept me alive, by observing the physical laws of nature.
Quantum physics tells us that perception causes a collapse of possibilities into a singularity or subjective reality.How can an independent reality exist if there is no perception,which requires a perceiver?IMO,a more accurate statement would be>an underlying infinity of possibilities brought into subjective reality through perception<The Heavy question asked by quntum physisists is"What keeps the funamental relationships of force charges in there respective relationships so physical particals come into existance and provide matter in the universe?The logicle answere is shied away from by most nonquantum scientists because it implies a fabric of some sort of Underlieng inteligence IE a universal mind.
Call it what you will
Be carefull Not to use the"G"word though lol
This baby science"Quantum Physics"is
The physics of Possibilitys and deals with the most fundamental elements of existence"Information"
I agree. "The God Delusion" Great Book.
Christians are not all the same, logic and belief are two greatly opposing subjects so do you suggest a logical debate on the matter?
truth, what is truth? etc are circular questions...
The basic question always boils down to creationisnm, logic vs belief and reasoning
Thats why people dont agree on almost anything in the first place is they dont have same belief at the onset, so it is just forever debating on a basic premise which they can't agree
The main reason is because Christians don't possess the capacity to reason or think, and believe that their blind faith is the same thing as logic.
One cannot reason with another who bases their entire lives on an indoctrinated belief system.
If that is true why do you keep trying.
It seems illogical to keep doing something that you know that you can not accomplish????
'Cos he's trolling. Don't feed the trolls.
Because I know for a fact that the more we write about the atrocities, the contradictions, the hypocrisy, the hatred and the oppression of cults, more and more cult members begin thinking for the first time in their lives and start questioning their religions, only to be released from their slavery.
In other words, Jerami, you are contemplating on remaining indoctrinated the rest of life with religion having a stranglehold on you?
To me it seems as though theists and atheists are caught up in a strangle hold.
I think that the truth runs straight up the middle between the ditches. Theism on one side of the road and Atheism on the other.
Yes Jerami, the stranglehold of cults.
Which theism, Jerami?
Theism is just a way of going about a goal and that is transcendence. Sometimes it fails and then you get the Inquisition other times you produce St. Francis of Assisi or Mother Theresa.
Atheism is just a way of questioning, sometimes you produce Galileo, Newton, Einstein and other times you get well...Q and the atom bomb... and lets not forget Emperor Nero.
so really it depends on the quality of the person that ascribes to it. A million doesn't make a millionaire so to speak.
Yea you are correct.
Though I am not sure that Galileo, Newton, Einstein were Atheists. They were not extremest for the sake of being extremest. Newton was very much a believer in the creator. But he was very much against the Catholic Church.
I think I would put Q in a clasification of his own.
Some day when he becomes an adult he may not be as much of an extremest as he thinks he "wanta be".
I could be wrong but I don't think that any of us are going to find our way to enlightnment until we find the truth that is hiding within. And when that is accomplished we become one with self.
Or something like that??
Q is definitely post adolescent, if he's under 18 then man, he's a genius. But any older than that he's laughable.
I wouldn't want to guess at his age. His maturity is something that I have a little better idea about.
I've watched my two boys mature at different rates.
I am happy to say that they have reached at least the level of maturity as their dad.... (for what ever that is worth?)
well Q has the angst of a teen deprived of a social life, a girlfriend and an allowance.
I am happy to hear that. I wonder what it's like to mother a child who you can talk to at your own level. I kind of look forward to that actually. I sometimes watch my mother's face when I say something she didn't even begin to think about and I wonder what that face means. It's like a mixture of disbelief and pride and a little bit of shame.
I can relate with that.. probably disbelief and pride but never shame.(maybe a little bit of worry).
Parenthood is a noble position when your responsibilities are met.
I gotta be getting outa here and meet a couple of my responseibilities.
While it may give you some sort of satisfaction to insult me personally, Jerami, it does nothing to support your argument. It only demonstrates you haven't got one.
You may not be aware of it, but you generally come across .. MUCH .. more insulting than this comment that you did not apreciate.
I could copy and paste your comments and send them back to you, if you were unaware of what I had done you would totally flip out.
Jerami, exposing nonsense, quackery, contradictions and hypocrisy for what it is often will insult those who adamantly use and believe in it.
Is that an admission and apology? I Accept !
We can agree that we both attempt to do better; OK ? Deal ?
Sure, no problem, I openly admit to exposing nonsense and apologize to those who are insulted by the exposure of their nonsense. How's that?
Jerami, the contradictions we keep seeing, I think are because of a nagging underlying doubt perhaps.
Imagine a group of people that dont believe in something, that spend so much time on the subject, and put down others that simply don't agree with them. I find it disturbing, and makes me think the bible is actually all the more true. When I look around at the world, and the people in the world, the belief system that makes the most logical sense of it all, should be the one that comes out on top. We each have to search for the truth, and not give in to faulty thinking, or just going with what we want to be true. This may be a bit too idealistic, but I still wish all could do that.
It's precicesy because Christains reason and think that they become Christians. Do you think that by choosing the path of athieism you have reach some nirvana of enlightenment such that to you all adherents of religion are unthinking simpletons? Get over yourself.
If people reason and think they move away from theories such as a big invisible being in the sky creates, controls and oversees everything.
Reasoning and thinking do not equate to indoctrinated belief of ancient myths and superstitions.
When it comes to their religions, the shoe fits...
I totally agree with you dissappearinghead
Christians do not possess the capacity to REASON, THINK, BELIEVE?... Wow Im disgusted! So your saying that HUMAN BEINGS are genetically altered upon recieving Christ as their personal savior? So... if they "backslide" they may be CHILD MOLESTERS and can reasonably be said that since they were "Chrsistian" at one point they were rendered incapable of reason, thought, or belief in something....BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAH...thats the most disgusting hate mongering statement I believe I have ever heard..
Indoctrinated BELIEF SYSTEM? Ridiculous..absurd.. Simply because A christian decides to live their lives in a reasonably better manner (dont lie, kill, steal, cheat, screw around...etc) ((to name a few of the rules a christian lives by)) they have a FLAW? OMG...THIS IS CHUCKLE CITY TONIGHT!!!!! One can not reason with a Christian? wowowwwww... Perhaps Christians have heard all the things some petty name callers have to say and reject it simply because it is ridiculous to them. Seems to me that "CHRISTIANS" aren't the only "CLOSED MINDED" people here then..you charge an entire religion off to a couple generic conversations about these peoples religion! and label them as "not possessing the capacity to REASON, THINK, BELIEVE"... Now who seems to be the one incapable of reason?
Gosh Maita, yer so smart I wanna kiss ya when ya talk like that.
i've only been connected to the internet for social interaction and writing here (couple of weeks) for a few months. normally only access it for business purposes. so it is all new to me.
Anyway, I've followed and commented on a few threads with Christian type statements or questions.
I'm realizing now that those few I've followed have had turmoil in their lives and have sought out an answer and have found comfort within renewing their faith or finding it. Words or statements may be dissected because they are searching and focussed. And that's okay....searching, believing, eventually finding the answers for themselves - right or wrong.
I guess I've taken my beliefs and faith for granted and have not really regretted anything in my life luckily and have not had the need to change my belief system or renew it. I figure I've lead a pretty good life in terms of my morals and ethics. And now, I'm realizing and have opened my eyes more to people who do have some regrets or who have been troubled and now may be comforted with being inspired by renewing their faith or finding something to believe in.
Sometimes comments may have seemed over the top and extreme to me, as an outsider; I'm beginning to understand why more and more. My 2 cents this a.m.
It seems to me that most people do avoid the tough questions. Those that go to the heart of the matter,
If we had the answers there would be no reason to debate.
Maybe people love debating more than they want answers.
I've seen many discussions come right up to the fence of discovery, but instead of crossing that fence, we tend to back off.
Protect our core beliefs at all cost.
This happens on both sides of the discussion; Theists and Atheists alike.
After all we all have the same basic tendencies
I can name many. first of which is ...
John received the Revelation over 1900 years ago.
It begins with
Rev 1:1 these things must shortly come to pass
Rev. 1:3 For the time is at hand.
And yet people can not keep from finding some excuse for not believing the things that Jesus is said to have spoken and yet profess to be following him.
Are we following Him or the Church???
Amen brother the many are following the traditions of men.. ie church.. Jesus came to save, to destroy the works of the devil not to add to them.. Oh the surprise on that day for the false church, the whore, those against the Savior of the World. where ya think those ashes come from that the pure in heart will trod upon ??
Just read the OP. Err, there was no hard question presented.
Asking for a debate is not difficult thing -in any form.
Yet, the kettle banging resounds. Anyone see an odd thing in that?
Judaism and those that teach it actually philosophise a lot more than Christians, who are simply told to unquestioningly follow the teachings of their faith.
I have also had some pretty in depth theological discussions with a few members of the Jewish community in my old city, they welcomed questions, and would actually debate, acknowledge the validity of the comment, and all in all it made for a pleasant discussion.
Whenever you question Christianity to a group of Christians however, you get shunned. If you point out a flaw, they get defensive.
This might be a blanket statement, but I have only met a few true Christians who have not conformed to this so far.
This is not the first time that this chasm of theological disparity exists, and there have been a few books on teh matter.
One common theme is that the Jewish religion has simply had much longer to mature. Personally I think over 2000 years is a fairly long time though!
I have to go do a quick estament ... be back later.
Anyone can see the blindness of others.
But no one seems that we are all blind.
You didn't answer the question, Jerami.
Which theism do you proclaim should be the truth alongside atheism? Islam? Christianity? My Hockey Team?
Avoiding a hard question, Jerami?
You didn't understand what I said!
When the Roman Empire created Religiosity; it fulfilled the prophesy as written in Rev. 13.
The teachings of Jesus Christ was forced into a left hand turn. This created fodder for Atheism to feed upon. And confusion for the faithful to become bogged down with.
1650 years later Interpretations of scripture have become more powerful than the teachings of Jesus Christ themselves. The truth is straight up the middle between Atheism and Theism.. Period!
When learning to drive a truck, Grand Pa said keep it between the ditches and I’ll be alright. The same is true with other stuff as well such as theisms.
This stuff is why I don't post on this forum much anymore. It's all just people with many different beliefs trying to argue with each other.
Nobody is going to change anyone's mind about what they believe in. Asking a question just leads to more questions and arguing. It's a no win situation.
So I just don't care what anyone believes in anymore, and don't know why everyone keeps asking questions of others. If your happy with what you believe, great!
If not, then do lots of research and study the whole mess. Figure out what makes sense to you, embrace it, then get the hell on with your life. Life's too short to spend it trying to figure out what you should do with your life, cause while your doing that, life happens.
Easiest way to start a thread in the forums.... Insult somebody and their beliefs, make sweeping generalizations and wait for people to fight back...
All Christians are blind and up themselves,
All muslims are frustrated terrorists,
All Jews are mean and tight fisted,
All Irish are stupid,
All Americans are Ignorant,
All southerners are inbred,
All women can't park cars,
All English football squads lose,
All...... Have I made my point????
Bill manning hits the nail on the head right there. I am not at all interested in changing anyone's core set of beliefs. I am convinced, according to my own lights, that we are all on paths that are uniquely suited to all of us. I consider proseletyzing to be morally wrong on those grounds. That is not my intent. I am a writer on a writer's forum, I have written about various spiritual paths including Christianity, what I am looking for is honest debate on the contradictions that appear inherent in the Christian path. I believe this would improve my writing on the subject and give grist to the mill for us all.
That out of the way, here's my first question;
john 3 v 16 is the "Golden Verse" of Protestant theology. It states;
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life."
This verse appears contradictory. In that it requires belief in the son of God in order to have eternal life. So how can it say that God loves the World, when, for the majority of the worlds existence the overwhelming majority of the Earth's inhabitants have never heard of Jesus Christ.
Just about every religion says believe in exactly what I say and in me or you will be damned for ever in a pit of unholy forum threads.... So how is Christianity any different???
You have an excellant question that could take a long time to answer because it starts from the fall of mankind (Adam and Eve)and what it takes to be in the presence of God in Heaven. (Which is the blood of the perfection "Jesus Christ")
I'm not an expert on the Bible, however, I would suggest watching the series of "The Stranger on the Road to Emmaus"
This 6 DVD set explains the fall of man and why God own Son "Jesus" is the only way to heaven.
Pardon me for asking you to re word the quetion but I am drawing a blank as to the direction it goes. I may have been on here too long. lol... I am genuinely interested in helping answer some questions you have about possible contradiction of the Bible. I have never found any and would like to hear more on it. PLEASE RE-WORD THE QUESTION. I may have an answer for you or I may not and you may have an answer for me. WHO KNOWS?
Looks like I don't have takers for hard questions yet so perhaps I was right all along.
jerami; Revelations 13 isn't really a prophecy, it's a commentary on what was happening. The Beast with 7 heads is the Roman Empire that rose up out of the sea, that is the mediterranean sea where they came from. The names of blasphemy on their heads refers to the requirement of all citizens in the empire to acknowledge their divine right to rule. This was not an attempt to suppress local religions, it was more analogous to the American pledge of allegiance and was a test of loyalty not of religion.
The head wounded to death was obviously Nero. He was the first emperor to persecute Christians and only the ones in Rome. He needed a scapegoat for the fire that destroyed the city. Up until that time that only persecutors of the Christians were the Jews. Remember, they turned Jesus over to the Romans as an insurrectionist, as someone who had presented himself as King of the Jews without Roman approval.
After Nero's suicide the Christians flourished in the empire until the time of Demetian who embarked on a wholesale persecution of all Christians in the empire. There is ample evidence, the seven congregations John writes to for example, that revelations was written in the time of Demetian. So the mention that the head wounded to death is later healed probably refers to Demetian replacing Nero as a persecutor.
The use of beasts as an allegorical symbol of Pagan nations is well known in Hebrew mythology, see Daniel chapter 7 for examples.
The sequence in which the visions are revealed are of great significance. We can discuss this later. The Beast mentioned in C. 13 has a body of a leopard, Daniel 7:6 identifies the Leopard as being Greece. And the feet of a Bear, the bear also identified in Dan. 7 as Persia. And a mouth of a lion which would be Rome. This beast has seven heads and ten horns and ten crowns. The church Bureaucracy that The Roman Empire established was divided into seven districts each district having their own Pope. These districts were divided into three regions, each region being assigned another Pope. This regional pope had authority over all church business in their region. The three regional headquarters was Alexandria, (Grecian) and Antioch (southern extremity of Persia) and Rome. This fits the description quite nicely.
Sorry to disappoint you. But God is not a science. Everlasting life is not an equation. Satan will be more than happy to provide you with all of that.
Christians don't have answers.
If it's good, god dunnit, if it's bad, man or satan dunnit!
Without reading all the previous posts, let me interject the obvious: That Christianity is based on blind faith. Either you believe in God and everlasting life or you do not.
In that respect Christianity is not defensible. It is impossible to defend something that is not seen but only felt; something that cannot be historically verified with absolute accuracy, for it is based on suppositions that we call scripture.
Still, the Bible clearly spells out what will happen in the End Times and much of that is occurring in real time. But there is a mass hysteria sweeping the planet at the moment, thus blinding the masses to the obvious truth.
jerami; Thank you for your reply but I must admit you've got one on me there. I thought I had a good grasp of early Christian history, I've got quite a library, but I've never come across anything about regional Popes or any organizational structure in the way you describe. I'd be interested to know your sources and if they are verifiable. I'm always willing to learn. At least you agree with me that beasts are traditionally used to symbolise pagan nations.
Foreignpress I have to differ with you. Christianity is not *Just* based on blind faith, it is also based on the Bible as God's revealed word. Yes there is a leap of faith in accepting that collection of books as being Holy writ but my point is that if that collection of books contains innaccuracies and contradictions then how can it be taken literally by honest persons.
Last point, The Bible is not a good predicter of the "End of Times" Many periods in history can, and have, been interpreted as the fulfillmant of Bible prophecy. Form the Crusades to the first world war, "This is the end of the world" has been a familiar cry. But any book can be used the same way. Nostradamus, the writings of Edward cayce, The Mayan calender. I could even show you how "Lord of the Rings" is a prophetic alllegory predicting the end of the world.
iantoPF said.... I'd be interested to know your sources and if they are verifiable.
Tried to find that book. Will look more tomorrow. I know I still have it. Been packing a lot of stuff.
Title... something like "Concise history of Catholism". ??
This book was aproved by the Church.
Will find it and give proper title and author's name tomorrow..
I was very suprised when I found that information in their book.
personally I think most Christians, particularly the hard core ones just like to praise the Lord, do cookouts, talk nice. do soup kitchens, food drives, get shocked at lewd things, prevent abortion.
They turn to religion to find peace, they're not going to a place that will make then question their faith and then get distracted with the typically Christian activities that are for the most part rewarding. I mean repenting from unclean thoughts for the secretary who smells good, staying married to a spouse who has body odor is hard enough right? Why deal with questions that have no answer.
I would like to discuss a tough question....
The Church teaches that in Matthew 24; when Jesus says
"This generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled" I believe that he was talking to THAT generation of people that he was talking to. As he was in Matt. 23 when he told the Pharisees that all the blood of the prophets were going to come down on this generation.
What justification do people have for forecasting these things that Jesus said would happen in THAT generation to be referring to some other generation 2000 years later?
There is no justification for believing that it was THAT generation or some other generation 2000 years later, because logically speaking, Jesus could NOT predict the future. That is the answer to your tough question.
What justification do you have that Jesus could predict the future?
The only validation anyone would have for believing what Jesus said here is their professing that we believe in him.
If we believe in him, why do we not believe what scripture says that he said?
That was a very strong reply you just made... Yep ..
that clears everything up for me.
The only validation anyone would have for believing what Jesus said HERE (in this instance) would be their professing to believe in him. ... ?????
"Christians however, when you present them with serious challenging questions they reduce it to name calling and change the discussion from honest questioning to unpleasant acrimony.
Is there anyone out there who would be willing to face an honest debate?"
Your response would be fine, if this thread was about Christian-vs-Christian, but it is not. You need to provide answers to tough questions from skeptics, where "belief in God" is not a valid answer.
what justification did nostradamus or the ancient myans have? Yet they have been used to tell all the future... ?
The Mayans used Astronomy to chart the movements of the stars, which is a scientific method of forecasting future events, based on acute observation.
It seems that Nostradamus' "prophecies" were so vague that they can be twisted to mean anything one wants it to mean.
If Nostradamus or the bible seems to, on occasion, get it right, it is only misrepresentations, trickery, or sheer luck.
It was not a scientific method. It was through observation yes. The scientific method requires that it go though the method. ancient wisdom did not use the method we used today. They have other means of divining knowledge.
Nearly 700 specific prophesies listed in the bible, all fulfilled 100% accurate with the exception of about 38 which are still future as they refer to the end days and we ain't QUITE there just yet, but keep on with the iniquity and we will get there soon enough...
Are you ready for that?
If you believe this as your truth then we are finished with the conversation because it sounds as if your very sound on your thought of "misrepresentations, trickery, or sheer luck" those words alone could dicount every theory known to man in history (religious or not)
Hell N0 said ... Personally, I believe the christian church to be the number 1 example of what the book of Revelation calls "the Whore of Babylon". The church is refered to as the world and we are commanded to come out of "her".
I think that you have a good point!
And if that is correct It might make a lot of sence and validate the scripture to contain more truth than you might think
Why do Christians avoid the hard questions?
Geez...you just answered your own question...they're "hard" ...."Duh"!
Actually, if'n a Christian tries to debate folks on here...it is pointless and futile. All their opinions are discounted. "Never the two (views) shall meet in any type of understanding," if you ask me...and ya' kind'a did!
Oh sure...people love to argue...and even draw people into nice quaint little discussions. (Probably, like this one.) Makes 'em sound so intellectual...but in the end run...these discussions are about just wanting to make your particular point and then have the other people "shut-up" so you will feel like the real schmart one.
OK. If you provide some type of logical justification, you will have credibility.
How would you prove, to the skeptic, the veracity of your assertion that, "Jesus is the future. He is the Alpha and the Omega"???
Since you, confidently, asserted this, you must have irrefutable proof that it is true. Let's hear it. I hope that question is not too hard.
What justification do you have that Jesus could predict the future?
I believe that everything that he said would be,... was.
When I read the prophesies in scripture, I can see them as having been fulfilled exactly as they were foretold.
But as everyone on here says... that is just my opinion???
This is truly interesting on many levels. There are those who see this topic as an attack on christianity by a skeptic and there are those here who only give credence to my original assertion that christians avoid the hard questions. Some, and I am grateful they are here, are willing for honest debate.
I id mention my discussions with Rabbi's and others of the Judaic religion. They have taught me that the Jewish view is of a Just and Righteous God who gives Laws of Justice and Righteousness to be lived by a Just and Righteous people. The relevancy and relative importance of those laws can be debated in Judaism but I have failed, in general terms, to find that same openness in Christianity. To the majority of Christians it's "believe or be damned"
For those who have not taken the time to read through this thread, I have raised the question of the contradiction apparent in John 3v16, and no one has tried to answer it, only getitrite has made any attempt to answer the question raised by jerami regarding the contradiction in Mathew 24v34
Is there anyone willing to take on the hard questions of Christianity? or, as one person put it, are christians only able to do cookie sales, be nice and fight abortion? is that the limit of christian thought?
Have you visited with a person you might consider a follower of Christian priinciples? A pastor or something? Sometimes, I find it hard to answer a biblical question because ...well i wont lie.. I dont know it all. lol.. I dont think anyone does. It also takes a lot of study to understand some biblical scripture. I mean, it was after all, translated from a different language by HUMAN BEINGS and as we all know..some of the original menaing is lost in translation. I found a lot of answers myself when I went and referenced the bible in its original greek, hebrew, and chaldean languages. What question do you have? I might can help a little with reference to original meaning and some historical background. Im no professor BY FAR..but I am inquisitive
excuse me for asking; what was the question concerning John 3:16. Several coments come to mind but I don't want to give them all.
Let me make one thing clear. If a "supposed Christian" resorts to name calling at any point you may rest assured that this is not in any shape manner or form a "Christian" at all.
A true person of God will not call names, throw fits, or get into a heated "debate" over religion. Either you love Jesus= obey the Ten Commandments or you find a way to excuse yourself for the ways you do not follow them....
We all have sinned. We were born in sin. I am a sinner, you are a sinner....this is Written in your Bible if you have one. A Christian will help spread the Word of the coming kingdom of God. Those who do not believe in this, well, they may not believe. But it is also Written what will happen to those who do not.
There never ever should be a "debate" on the Word of God or being a Christian. It is not a debatable subject. Have a Blessed Evening..
You are right of course, no room for debate at all. Just a pile of bronze age control, compiled from other earlier gods to satisfy the "god dunnit" mentality of the terminally irresponsible, too scared to make their own decisions in life.
Perhaps Christians are guilty of leaving "no room for debate" and your accusations of a "goddunnit" mentality may be the very reason why. I have seen on here a lot of CLOSE MINDED people who automatically reject the belief system of Christians along with other religion too! Many Christians are sick of those who find themselves in a position to feel superior in intellect to those who have chosen to BELIEVE IN SOMETHING ... As for the comment about fear of making decisions..I just SNICKER I cant even dignify that with a response.
I am a person who loves science, history, politics and critical thinking. The reasons I believe in God are numerous, and I will admit that some are emotional, and meaningful only to me. That does not say that there was no critical thinking involved. I may never be able to present an argument intelligent enough to change your mind, but that doesn't mean that I lack the ability to reason. However, I am sure that you know that.
You have classed believers as terminally irresponsible and too scared to make our own decisions in life. But you have given no examples of decisions that christians should make that you thinkg we are avoiding. So I will give you some examples from my own life then, with all its failings and tell me where I was afraid to make a decision: My dad died six years ago 2 1/2 weeks after I started a new job. I didn't know if my mom would be able to pay her mortgage, so I went to work at my new job in order to help her meet her expenses. I mourned my dad at my desk, though I needed to do it privately. I made a decision to help her.
The same week, a family member of mine committed a crime and went to prison. Although I was very angry at the person, I weighed the situation and realized that if I turned my back on them they would have no one to support them and maybe would never be rescued from their own desctructions. I made the decision to try to stay in their life and help if I could. I knew it was a risk, and there is little guarantee that the decision will come out the way I hope. Nevertheless, I made the choice that it was worth the risk. This person still has 12 more years on their sentence. But I visit them, I write to them, I pray for them and I try to encourage them.
You have said that we are too afraid to make any decisions in life. I believe you spoke in haste.
Not likely, critical thinking dismantles the concept of ALL gods, not just the one you personally believe exists.
Well, I suppose I could tell you to go look it up yourself and feed the starving children while you're at it, but that would just make me look the fool, wouldn't it?
well I have a feeling you don't know what it means, since you use it quite liberally even when you contradict yourself constantly.
Weather god exists or not,weather religion is correct or not almost doesn't matter in light of the fact that there is a balance of normality maintained when state and religion exist side by side.Every society through out history that has allowed one or the other to be eliminated ended up in ruins.curiously enough,the arguments seem to be based on evaluational understanding.Buy that I mean conceptual figurative societal context of the arguer rather than the original writers.When a historical work of any kind is read we should keep in mind the excepted norms of the society it came from,the original definition of words involved,the literary styles and methods of writing as well.One simple example that causes great dificulty when scholars are attempting to wrestle intended meaning from ancient christian and Jewish texts is the fact that scribes did not separate words with spaces as I'm doing here,theyranalltherewordstogetherlikethis which is difficult enough to decipher in your own language but consider the difficulties of doing it in a thousands of years old out of use language.
And now if you'll excuse me I have to take my medication,put my helmet back on,and return to my padded cell.
awesome response... the best yet by far...thank you
supercalafragalisticexpialadocious or my favorite on a NY subway train:
Being a Biblical Scholar does not mean that a person knows anything about the nature of a higher being or god; it just means that they know a lot about the Bible. Not the same thing, as the Bible is just a group of religious stories from a particular ancient civilisation. Nobody says that an Egyptologist knows about the nature of the divine, just because he/she is an expert in ancient Egyptian religious texts, do they?
actually it just means they know a lot about biblical history. most biblical scholars stay away from biblical interpretations from a religious or mystical standpoint.
CMH... You made a good point. Thank you for bringing that up. I did use poor terminology I ADMIT IT
It would be nice if Christians and every other religious person actually knew their religion.
It would even be nicer, if they actually learned something from it, which apparently from the actions of many Christians and others, is more than obvious, that they haven't.
Human spirituality is the only thing we can learn, with reference to spirituality and it's the only thing that seems to matter.
Case in point- LOVE is the highest spirituality a human can obtain. All else suffers in comparison.
If that's what you meant, then I'll agree.
Edit: popcorn spirituality is religion.
You are right: Even Jesus summed up Christianity in this way,
"Love God with all of your heart, mind and ability. Love your neighbor like you love yourself. On these two commandments hang the entire law* and everything the prophets said." Matthew 22:37-40
The word 'law' here is actually the Greek word, 'nomos' - it means literally "food" or "grazings", the metaphor is if you take these two instructions into you as if you ate them, they will nourish you, because this is the whole point of everything God instructed us to do!
By the way, when we do decide to love one another, it's amazing how good that actually feels. Even if the other person hates you. The whole principle is: If you live life according to love, you can't go wrong.
This quote is directly interpreted wrong, because of Jesus' other messages, which tells them to seek "god", the "holy spirit" within oneself. That would lead the above statement to be that YOU(or the person reading it) are "GOD" in your own life and should love yourself first(heart, mind and ability), before all else.
Terye, you are right on there. Cagsil, there is nothing supporting your interpretation there, and that is a first to hear it put like that. One thing that may support it, is that some would WANT that to be true, but alas, it isn't and especially when you see it played out in the bible. The followers of Jesus didn't grow in doubt, they were more sure than ever and were willing to die for their beliefs and did. There was no doubt, and it was NOT about self, but just as Jesus said.
Because most of them know they are fooling themselves and do not want to face up to it.
Well this sure is a fun ride. Unfortunately my original point is being proven time and time again.
No Christian seems willing or able to look at the hard questions.
Perhaps if I put a couple of points on the table there may be some takers;
Christians hold that there is an almighty and all powerful creator of the universe who made us in his own image. This creator is not only Lord of this existence but Lord of the existence we experience after death. He has decreed that our actions with regard to Him and His worship will determine our situation in our post-death existence. The way we discover what is required of us in this life is by reading the word of God transmitted to us in the form of the collection of books known as "The Holy Bible"
So the big question here is; If this all-powerful and infallible Lord of the Now and the Hereafter has communicated to us via the Bible, why does it contain so many contradictions and historical innaccuracies?
One other point; A couple of posts referred to mathew 22v37-40. This is not a unique teaching of Jesus. This notion of "Love God above all and your neighbour as yourself then keep the law and the Prophets" is pure Pharisee. This is Pharisaic doctrine in a nutshell. Jesus, by his sermon on the mount, placed himself firmly on the Liberal left of the Pharisees. Or Hassidim as we know them today.
Last night I attempted to answer the other question about John 3:16 It is a very long answer It may be my next hub.
In a nut shell ! Jesus said that he came but for the lost sheep of Israel. Those that were given the laws of Moses, who lived under the covenant of Abraham.
So Jesus was basically saying ... hay you guys have been found guilty.... you are going to your punishment, OR you got one and only one alternative... see what I did? I paid your debt.. now all ya gotta do is take my hand and we'r goina walk outa here. Any one that don't is going to their judgment,
And if they choose not to?... They are goina go where they were already going. Jesus didn't put nothing extra upon them for not taking his hand and walking outa there.
They get what they already deserved. The rest of the people must have been living by the word of God. They weren't found guilty so they didn't need to take his hand and walk out of the judgment.
I know that isn't very clear and precise. And I could be wrong but that is the way I understand those verses.
ianto... In reference to your last statement I am going to attempt to clerify your idea that the Bible has contradiction. First, I acknowledge that you have a very valid point when you mention contradictions. At first read and glance I see why you or anyone else would find some of the writings contradictory. However, I too had some questions until I studied the history of the Bible and translation. The bible was written in 3 different languages ..Greek, Hebrew, and Chaldean... If you find the contradictory verses and then go to the strongs concordance and look up each word individually you will find the meaning of the words are VERY DIFFERENT than what the english ideas of the words mean. Therefore, when english defines a word and its origin it differs slightly or totally from one book in the bible to another since it is in 3 languages. And when one verse is Greek or otherwise..another may be hebrew and the variations are totally different. This is a bit off key but a good point...the top commandment in the Bible says "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me" this sounds to me like it means don't worship any god but God of the Bible...but if you reference the scripture it means do not take the authority of God lightly. I could explain it better if it werent here in writing but I have made every attemp to answer your question. I hope this will help you gain insight into the questions you want answered.
Thank you for your answer, I appreciate the thought. However one or two points. The Old Testament, or Tanakh to the Jews, was written in Hebrew. I have evry reason to believe that much of it was taken from Babylonian mythology which of course would be written in Chaldean, but the Hebrew scriptures were only written in Hebrew. The first language they were translated into was Greek I go into this in a little more detail in a Hub I wrote a while back giving a commentary on Genesis. The New Testament was written in Greek because that was the lingua franca of the Middle East 2,000 years ago.
Yes, this causes problems of translation. My first notion of this came at a very young age when I read, for the first time in English, Corinthians 13 "Now I see through a glass darkly" My first experience of the Bible was in Welsh where it says "Nawr d'wyn gweld trwy drych mewn dammeg" (Now I see through a mirror darkly) Then, in later years I discovered that every language other than English, translates that verse as either "Mirror" or "Looking glass" So those who follow the English translation of the Bible do miss out on many subtle points.
Yet there are so many who adamantly state that evry comma is divinely appointed.
angel115707; you say "Bring it on" as though no questions have been asked. I suggest you read through this thread and you will find a number of these hard questions. You will find it's worth reading before posting as in life it is often better to listen before you speak.
Ianto PF, I was discouraged when I first got the onslaught of supposed historical inaccuracies and supposed contradictions in the bible. It was actually a little scary to hear that some were acting so enlightened and what if they were right?
Instead of just taking them at their word, I dug deep into the accusations etc, to see if it could possibly be true or not. I have spent years studying these things ever since. Many of your questions, if they are genuine can be answered logically and with good reasoning by many christians today. Look up Greg Koukl, anyone, as he has been an incredible source. He challenges christianity head on, and is hardest on his own beliefs, and breaks arguments down to see if there is any truth in what all the leading atheists are saying. The followers of the leading atheists, tend to just blindly follow, and don't really challenge themselves, and assume the big guys that have written books , etc, have done their homework, when really they haven't at all. Their vitriol is still noted throughout, which is odd if they just simply disagree. Many adopt that incredible negativity and tend to want to squash the opposition to their own held beliefs, like bugs. That is odd, for you don't see them doing the same with other religions and worldviews as much. Just trying to help here, to help people get a clear view and be careful of what is being told and taught.
This would be the evangelistic Christian who criticizes others for not thinking critically about their claims of their religions, all the while making his criticisms under the umbrella that his god exists and Christianity is right. He is certainly one hilarious hypocrite.
I have a question.
At the time of the first resurrection those that are perfect and did not receive the mark of the beast will be seen in heaven. And that everyone that dies in the Lord from henceforth shall rest from their labors and their works do follow them. Implies that they go straight to heaven and do not have to suffer the second resurrection.
I do not recall that "everyone" else burns in hell?
Facing judgment yes. Each will be judged according to their works.
I do not believe that this says anything about going to hell simply for taking the mark of the beast. Facing judgment yes.
I may have missed or misunderstood something?
I see the false teacher is thrown into the lake but do not see those that are mistaught being immediately punished in this way.
If this is incorrect I could use some help in understanding.
Just a fast reply befotre I go offline.
Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
According to these scriptures one must do all that is listed. They must worship the beast and recieve his mark befort the wrath of God is poured out upon them.
Sidenote: I am fairly sure there is more to it than that but no time right now. Will check in again later.
SirDent..this is a totally wrong notion you have. In my opinion, but hey I am just saying. The beast is a metaphor (for lack of better wording) for sin nature..the mark of the beast is thought to be either literal or figurative and can be translated either way. But, I think the head refered to the mind or thought and the hand refers to action or acting on the fallen nature of human beings. If I interpret it correctly, God warns that we are to avoid taking such marks .. A sin is an action or an act..sinning is a continual verb... Revelation is written in GREEK so you can look up it's original meaning accorsing to such. The wrath of God does not come easily..God is not some GIANT ENTITY with a rock and a big stick , ready to beat the perverbial hell out of those who make a mistake...though many would like to think he is this way so they can keep on being grossed out by god and angry at the notion of a vengeful god. I would be more than willing to attempt to answer any thoughts ou might have on the matter.
I think it depends who you talk to. Belief isn't the same thing as knowing a lot and being able to explain the beliefs. A lot of religious information is handed down in a cultural way and you end up with people who fiercely believe but aren't necessarily conversant with all aspects.
When you think about it, there's a lot to know if you want to seriously debate religious issues.
I have mainly questions, no answers.
I think that a forum like this is a good place to discuss these issues; thereby learning how to express the Q and A's in our own mind,In this way sometimes finding our own answers.
Answers which are usually wrong when you follow that method.
And still the hard questions are avoided and largely unanswered. There are so many of them;
"Homosexuality is an abomination"
This is a religious statement.
"Eating shellfish is an abomination"
This is a cutural statement.
"Go into all the world and preach the gospel"
This is a religous directive.
"Women should be silent in church"
This is a cultural directive.
But who decides? Who has the authority to say which is from god for all time and which belongs to the time it is written?
These and others presented aren't here to mock or deride, they are real questions that deserve real answers.
I did attempt to answer the other question on a hub
think it adresses some of these questions as well though not specifically. In my mind it does.
I think that they all deserve real consideration.
It is never good enough to understand half or anything.
My "Opinions” on the issues listed above...
concerning...Homosexuality being an abomination?
The emphasis seems to be on the word Abomination
This seems to imply being of a greater transgression than some of the other sins? It is also stated to be an abomination to eat scavengers such as river bottom feeders, vultures, birds of prey etc.
These would be physical health issues. Breaking the order in which we are supposed to be within the food chain.
These animals do not have a digestive track that processes their foods sufficiently to break down contaminants before assimilated within their flesh making them a proper food source for us.
Our intestines are designed to absorb nutrients after being prepared by our stomach acids. I would think it can be said to be an abomination to shove grapes or any other digestible stuff up the out door. The same would be true for light bulbs, rocks baseball bats etc.
The intestines are designed to absorb "stuff" into our blood stream. Sperm is designed to penetrate. This can not be good for our blood stream to absorb anything that wasn’t prepared properly first. To allow any and all invaders into our blood stream would be putting undue stress upon our imune system.
I think that woman were given the directive (By the men) to remain silent and follow their husband or father in the same manner that every ship out to sea has only ONE captain of the ship. One person given the responsibility to maintain ONE course.(But who decides?) Imagine having two? Every time one captain goes to sleep the other captain changes course. That ship will never reach land.
Who has the authority to say which is from god for all time and which belongs to the time it is written?
This would depend entirely upon who is talking and who is spoken to? And what is the content of the message.
Such as; Was Jesus talking to a crowd? or was this a private conversation? Example... Jesus told the young servants to gather water in the empty wine barrels. Does that indicate that every Christian should have barrels of water sitting around so they can be turned to wine? Of course not!
My opinions are just that; My opinions.
Why does toast with jam on always land jam down in a pile of fluff if you drop it?? This is the real question that needs answering...
or; If cats always land on their feet and jammy toast always lands on the jam, what happens if you strap jammy toast to a cats back and drop it?
Not always!It depends on the Variables like...
Wind direction and speed!
velocity of the falling toast!
the distance the toast falls!
the mass ratio of jam to toast!
Does the jam have Bits in it?
the temperature of the toast as opposed to ambient temperature around it!
And most Important of ALL!!!
HOW HUNGRY THE TOAST AND JAM EATER IS!!!
I studied T and J in college so I have an intimate understanding of Yummys:)
Hope this helps...
“Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bog-gglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as the final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.
The argument goes something like this: `I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, `for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'
`But,' says Man, `The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.'
`Oh dear,' says God, `I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly vanished in a puff of logic.
`Oh, that was easy,' says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets
himself killed on the next zebra crossing.”
The late and great Douglas Adams
Another unanswered hard question for the belief and unbelief systems of the world: Can there be a "live and let live" system on the same irrespective of the ugly dirty play of religion?
Why does poo stink? Does it have to? Couldn't god have made it smell sweet?
Why do Christians avoid the hard questions?
The Christians simply have no answers to hard questions.
For instance; why did not Jesus write Bible himself? Why does not Bible has claims and reason in it for ethical, moral and spiritual issues, itself? Why Bible depends on the reasons of others?
Christianity is founded by Paul, a human being, so it does not have answers to the above difficult questions; so the Christians come to its rescue.
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
Because Jesus is interpreting an Oral Tradition in his own words. He does not need to write it again, it was already written in scrolls.
Because one complete answer usually take me 2 hours to write.
I would rather answer some of the questions in my own Christian blogs. However, skeptics usually sit there and expect people to answer them when they like and where they like it. They usually don't move and search for answer that is already written by someone else.
One day you may talk to God and complain the fact that Christians don't answer your question in a busy weekday with 2-4 hours of his or her time. I guess it's a good argument in court.
What is your question?
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
Hello, I am new to forum and HubPages, I consider myself christian simply because I believe in Jesus Christ as our savior. It is not only Christians who avoid the hard questions. Humans avoid the hard questions. It's more simple to answer the easy questions and ignore the hard questions. Please raise your hand if you live on the planet Earth, belong to the mortal human species and have an answer to the hard questions. At what point does a question becomes hard?, would be the first question I would like to ask.
I think that the OP was actually just a challenge for us to get up out of our confort zone and attempt to find a couple of answers to a couple of questions for our own sakes as much as to satisfy any curiosity that he might have had.
I would like to see a few more questions like the first ones.
These were answerable.
right or wrong answers ? he just wanted someone to try.
I have answers to some questions, they are my own to the dilemma of human existence, first you must put purpose to God's will to find the perspective that will unlock the wisdom that the Bible does possess.
God's word is his, we should give him the respect he deserves. Jesus spoke in parables so that those that get it will understand and those whose heart of righteousness was too weak wouldn't.
Define religion, religion is what each one of us does individually with our free will. God would not want to hide his work from any of his children, only the ones who are vile.
That would be ONE definition of religion.
See, there you go making assumptions of god. Last time I checked, you do not speak for god, because in fact, you've never heard one word from god.
Thus, you apparently do not understand Jesus' work. Did you tell yourself to go out and seek others? or Did god tell you too?
Be careful how you answer.
I do believe organizations are to blame, seeing that we are all responsible for our own actions as individuals.
The parabels that were spoken were simple enough that anyone that wanted to could understand.
Unfortunately, when put in the hands of the educated elite at the time of making/forming of Christianity, is where it went awry.
Jesus never hid his lessons from churches or organizations. He was here for many reasons, one being to spread the word. By teaching established organizations, you are more apt to hit a larger audience, why would God want to hide his word? All establishments possess both good and evil. You can't write off a whole establishment because of evil that it possesses, ignoring the good that the establishment possesses, where are the rights of the good?
You're changing the topic. The rights of the good?
You are kidding right?
Get a grip. Jesus' work wasn't meant to be part of religious scripture. It never was. It was "LIFE" teachings.
Had you understood that- then you would know there is no god, except inside ourselves. If you happen to listen or read his words, as twisted in bible, then I can see how you think like you do.
If you subtract religion from Jesus' work, and apply his teachings in your life, then you would know that the only god in existence is inside your own control of your life. Once you have a grip on that simple concept, then you'll find a path that you can love yourself and have compassion(mercy) for others, who do not know better.
Kind of like I have with you, without knowing a thing about you.
Ellyja .. He was here for many reasons, one being to spread the word.
I forget the chapter and verse but Jesus did said that he came not but for the lost sheep of Israel.
Ellyja ...why would God want to hide his word?
I don't think that he did hide his word; or lock up any of the wisdom that is written in scripture.
It our minds being closed that cause us to not see it all.
Ellyja ..... You can't write off a whole establishment because of evil that it possesses, ignoring the good that the establishment possesses, where are the rights of the good
I agree with this completely, Well said.
Yet I also agree with some of what Cagsil said about the religious establishment that was in power when Jesus walked the earth. Jesus had nothing good to say about the Pharisees that wasn't followed with chastisement for greater sins than the good that was expressed.
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by Mmargie1966 6 years ago
I am a Christian, and an American. I believe in the freedom to believe in anything you choose to (or not). What I don't understand is why Christianity is under attack.I don't necessarily believe in everything the "Church" teaches, but I don't bash other religions, and frankly,...
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