I apologize, I believe that everything happens because of God's will. He inspires us. When you say the educated elite, I realize that they are humans under God, thus not above the influence of God, my belief and faith makes me believe everything under the stars and on the earth are under God. The One God would have it no other way.
That means there is no choice.
I will admit, everything happens for a reason and there is no coincidences, just the illusion of coincidence.
The god of the bible inspires separation, educated elitist righteousness and a bunch of B.S.
And, I will tell you that you are using your faith in the wrong manner, because human spirituality is only gained through love and compassion.
There is no two ways about it.
How can you not think that life is a test of what is in our heart?
Aren't we talking about the same thing yet you have taken more time to judge me without getting to know me. Inside myself is where I find God. Is it not the Spirit of God that lived in Jesus which gave him such a good understanding of life so he could teach it?
Because, I don't have to test what I feel already and everyday. What's your point? I have no question about who I am or what I am to become, nor do I have any less love and compassion for the next person than I do for myself.
Judge you, no not at all. I judged your action. Which is my right to do.
You speak as though god and you are separate.
No. Jesus loved humanity with every ounce of his being and had compassion for those who couldn't feel like he did.
He tried to convey that message and it is why he was executed for no crime. He was a threat to the control of the religious establishment's control of the masses. Jesus knew it.
Love and compassion is universal to the good, when I read the Bible that is the number one rule to follow, Why is salvation through repentance important to me as a person trying to become a better person? Because, in order to repent, I must first self reflect, then become self aware, then try to learn from the experience. These are lessons the Bible teaches, if you take the time to give credit. Since you seem intent to attack my faith,
maybe you would reveal where your faith lies?
You're missing the point.
So, when god tells you to kill or ordains the death of a child, it is good?
I am not attacking your faith. If you feel your faith is being attack it might be because you have little faith and lots of hope that the words you are spouting out are heard, not only by others, but to help you deal with your own lack of faith.
What you have is hope? There is no faith in your words and you still didn't answer my question.
I'll ask again- Did you come here to spout off or did god tell you to? And, again you speak as if there are two - YOU and GOD?
I am telling you that YOU are god in your life, accept it. There is no need for external guidance when guidance is already built into you. You do so by making free will choices and putting good and honest action behind those choices.
Thus, there is no need for a god. You control your thoughts, you control your actions. When YOU make choice and put effort into it. That is the power of god at work.
This is the message of Jesus. Self-acceptance, creates self interest, promotes self-growth, engenders self-esteem(belief in oneself) and self-confidence(faith in oneself).
As long as your actions do not harm others. You live a right life.
I am not sure that the message of Jesus included so much about one's "self" as you say there. He was about others, and His Father. He was the light and the truth, and the way and key to life. That following Jesus, happens to turn out to benefit ones self interest for eternity, is just another gift on top of this current life. God rewards those that seek him, and we have only begun to see what He is about. He has given more than enough evidence, but will not force us if we are dead set against him, or even of the possibility of him. He lets people have that too, if that is what they truly want. BUT, he is no willing that any should perish.
God doesn't ask to kill or ordain the death of a child.. In fact he hated child sacrifice that many of the pagans were engaging in in the Bible. He won't ask you to break his own laws... If you get a message like that, then its not of God at all.
Night night yaul it is way past my bed time..
see ya when the mornin comes.
Gotta go, its 1;30 AM. It's been real fun putting my beliefs on the table to be persecuted. Be back later to see what comments they provoke. Hope we all are at least thinking of our existence and why we are here. May noone influence us away from our own individual thoughts, that is what makes us so special.
The concept of "THE BEAST and False prophet"
People do not read what they are reading.
Please read this until you can the issues.
The beast rises up out of the sea.. AND THEN ..It is given 42 months to blaspheme the Lord... and THEN ... another beast rises up out of the earth.
There is a problem in the time frame...
42 months ?? For a religious organization to be established and rule the earth and come to its end in just 42 months??
That would be impossible for this to happen in this day and time.
Another misconception... GOD has been patient in fulfilling these 7 seal, 7 trumpet, seven vial judgments.
Even though scripture said "THE TIME IS AT HAND" 1900 years ago... he has much patience BUT THEN all of these calamities are to be dumped upon the eaerg in just 3 1/2 of our years???
Jerami, I don't have all the answers, one stumbling block I find is the concept of time, the Bible references God's time to man's time, like it references God's law to man's law. I find 42 months in Revelations, and I find 42 generations at the beginning of the book of Matthew, from Adam to Jesus. Can we find a scientific chart somewhere to explain the relationship of God's time to our time. What is a generation, or a month, or a day, or a year, to God. I know you work on houses, according to your profile, when you are focused on a project, with no distractions, in touch with your inner self, does not time seem to not matter, time is relative to perspective, I believe.
Did God make the Universe under our deadline of 24 hrs. or did he make the universe no matter how long it took, then saw to it that it was good, because perfection is a goal most honorable, then call it a day. These are just my opinions, but I've heard people question the authority of God simply because they can't believe he built the universe in 24 hrs.(our day) I just can't accept the fact that God looks at the world from the same perspective we do. The bible needs to be picked apart like a sudoku puzzle, one layer at time.
It is my opinion that Gabriel gave us the answer in
Daniel 9:1 first year of Darius
Ezra 1:1 538 to 539 BC
Daniel 9:23 The command came forth
9:26 From the time the commandment comes forth until Messiah is cut off (killed) will be 62 weeks
556 years later Messiah was killed
556 years = 62 weeks
1 week = approx9.1 years
1260 days = approx. 1643 years
42 months = approx 1680 years
prophetic time = 52 prophetic weeks
a season = 13 weeks = approx 119 years.
Understanding this as if it were true; opens up a totaly diffrent prospective for scripture
Even if the perception that Church theologians are correct (NOT) the 42 months that is given for the Beast to blaspheme would bee 1200 of our years.
this issue alone should cause alarm bells to ring.
This false religion will blaspheme the lord for 1200 years according to the Church.
My equation says that 42 months is approx 1680 years.
What was happening in the world approx. 1680 years ago?
Constantine’s Church was being construction
I just can't accept the fact that God looks at the world from the same perspective we do. The bible needs to be picked apart like a sudoku puzzle, one layer at time
The concept that I listed above is the first step in the process that you have suggested. I have completely disassembled the scripture of prophesy and reassembled it. They will reassemble quite nicely. To take this analogy and apply it to any and all prophetic messages that are delivered by an angel and in the visions that John relieved while caught up in the spirit up into heaven, clarifies all of the mystery and understanding rises up to the surface,
When it is written that God delivers the message himself this does not apply.
This is the kind of tough questions that the OP was talking about that Christians do not want to talk about or even consider.
Cause you know that if you give this any serious consideration at all, you will then have to rethink everything that you have been taught about prophesy.
If this simple message that was given to Daniel was taught uninterrupted by the church... The radical Atheist will not have a leg to stand on while denying the existence of God.
Because the False interpretations that have been taught by the false Religious establishment arms the non believer with more than enough ammunition to fight the God concept.
When we study how these time equations fit within prophesy; further understanding constructs itself.
I have been begging Christians to convince me that this concept is false and they refuse to do so.
I hope that you (Ellyj) will acept my answer to your challenge???
I'm getting dizzy and need to lie down. Will I see a logical reply when I get back up????
Well thought out and well researched jerami; The only problem I have with this, and it's a mighty big problem, is that Daniel is not to be found amongst the jewish prophets at all. Th book of Daniel is amongst the Ketuvim, "Writings" It wasn't written by Daniel at all it was written around 160 BC. This is easily shown by the number of anachronisms contained in it. While isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel are accurate about the occurrences in their time, Daniel is very fuzzy about the Babylonian times. A good example is the Darius you mention.
Daniel 5v31 "And Darius the Median took the kingdom, being about three score and two years old."
It was 538 BC when Gobyras, a general of the Persian king Cyrus conquered Babylon. Darius became king of Persia in 521 BC some 17 years after the fall of Babylon. However he was the most renowned of the Persian rulers so it is easy to see how the writer would make that mistake.
There are a lot of other mistakes that show clearly why Daniel is not included in the Law or the Prophets in the Jewish canon and why his "prophecies" are suspect.
Ya caught me assuming I guess?
Not to be argueing but I'd like to explain how that happened.
It was my understand that there were several kings named Darius. I did a little searching for Darius son of Ahasuerus and found nothing.
When reading Ezra and seeing Cyrus proclaiming that the God of Heaven had "Charged" him to build god a house in Jerusalem (in 538 BC) and Isiah (44:26) confirms over a hundred years earlier that Cyrus would command that Jerusalem be built. And the fact that reconstruction of Jerusalem had began just a couple of years later that it would be safe to assume that the commandment did in fact come forth in 538 BC.
It doesn't seem logical that the command would go forth to build something that had already begun reconstruction.
As the church would have us believe
Add to that; that Gabriel said that the commandment has come forth (Dan 9:23). For me this should be compelling enough.
If we are to give the NT any credibility at all we would have to consider the fact that Jesus did make reference to Daniel the prophet in Matthew 24:15.
If Jesus recognizes Daniels visions I just automatically accepted them also. To do otherwise I would have to disallow the complete NT.
Call me stubborn but I have gone full circle in my considerations of this matter and have to believe that this vision in Daniel is true; or nothing can be??
If there are other concerns to consider on the matter I might change my mind but it would have to be pretty strong..
I say this because after applying the equation a week = approx 9.1 of our years, to every one of the prophesy
they seem to connect like a freight train with the opening of the first seal being broken shortly after the death of Christ and the pouring out of the sixth bowl judgment about the time WW1 broke out. To me it appears to be truck loads of circumstantial evidence that point to the fact that the equation is accurate.
And the 42 months of the beast is about to have been accomplished.
But this is just my opinion.
Unfortunately, even though believers claim their god does this and does that and provides them with this experience and that experience, there has been no evidence to suggest to science that your god even exists that none of those claims carry any validity. So, obviously there would be no scientific charts explaining your gods relationships to anything.
What you say is true with the exception of the existance of God and the proof of his existance..
That is because over the past 16 70 years, the beast has collect all of the evidence that you have ask for. He does not want to be recognized for who he is.
All of the proof is in a library in the Vatican.
Here are some questions for all the Muslims out there, hope they are not too difficult;
Why are so many of the male residents of Saudi Arabia drug taking drunks that continually chase women?
Why do so many of the wives of these arab guys have extramarital affairs even though they risk being stoned to death?
Looking forward to the answers....
I had never paid any attention to this verse before 5:31.
There seems to be confusion as to who this Darius was. ??
I do not know if it really matters? Because of the reasons I mentioned above.
Why couldn't an omnipotent, omniscient god remove sin without requiring a sacrifice?
Hi friend getitrite
The Creator - God Allah YHWH never wanted any human sacrifice/killing; this is only a Christian or Pauline misunderstanding.
I express what I believe with reasons; other are free to believe anything with reasons.
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
I think that it is for the same reason that he wears socks when he wears sandles.
In other words, you are evading the question.
The Bible says that “the Lord thy God is a jealous God.” But if God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, eternal, and the creator of all that exists, of whom could He possibly be jealous?
We an be jealous at our spouse over another person, a puppy, time spent doing cross word puzzles or anything at all if don't think that we are getting enough attention..
Then I would say that a person would have to get over themselves if they feel that they are inferior to something not alive.
If a spouse gives more attention to TV than their other half? It begs to ask why? Is there something missing?
But, for a person to feel jealous because a person watches more TV than they do spending time with them, then they first need to get over their ego, so as to reveal the answer. Usually, it is the ego that the spouse has a problem with in the first place.
I am man, listen as I speak type B.S. Is ignorance blissful.
As is I am woman, hear me roar. Mutual love and compassion are key, but is overlooked because of selfish egos.
I was only clarifying as to what Jealousy is.
I could have used a better metaphor than spouses.
Maybe your child. You can do every thing right. Give them everything they need and much of what they want.
And for no reason at all they think that they are too smart or pretty to be seen with you.
Right or wrong there is a good chance that anyone can "feel" jealousy. don't have to act upon it or let it change the way you behave, but you can still "FEEL" hurt.
There is much more to being jealous than screaming and pulling someone’s hair... Much more.
Again, ego plays too much of a factor. I am not a jealous person. I do not get jealous at all. That is why I said it.
I don't think that if you get jealous or not has anything to do with a short definition of the word?
Ego is where "jealous" comes from and lives.
Even taking SirDent's example: A women goes out dinner and dancing with her husband, and she dances with everyone but him.
Does he have a right to be jealous? No. He has a right to be envious of those men, but not jealous.
Jealous is a lack of knowledge and understanding of what it takes to make a relationship work, either boyfriend/girlfriend or spouse.
At the end of the day the man has nothing to be jealous about, because he is taking her home, because she is married to him.
At the end of the day, she will have enjoyed herself, because she had the freedom to do whatever it is she felt like doing. His compassion for letting her do what she wanted, is repaid ten fold, because they remain married.
If you never get jealous, truly, then that is fine, but why do you have a problem if the God of the universe gets jealous of his own creation? They are literally His creation. If you handle relationships differently than God does, what does that mean exactly? You can reject him for that, I guess, but I wonder if that is a good reason to do so? Will you tell him its because of his jealousy of his own creation, that you didn't believe in him, but then what? God is different from the rest of us too, by the way, in that he doesn't sin. I also have never met or heard of a person that doesn't ever get jealous. Its too much an innate response at times...Even if you aren't though, why the comparison, I guess is what I am asking. Thanks
In other words, you want to evade the question, and create a strawman fallacy. These are human traits. Humans are not omniscient, omnipotent, eternal, or ubiquitous. We are talking about your God, not finite, limited beings.
Had a good laugh though.
If God is God, and he made us all, why can't he get jealous of his own creation ? Some people have believed and loved Him, but then later they turn their back on Him. If he is a relational being like it is presened, then the bigger question is why would you even ask about the jealousy thing?
Another point, is that if you are speaking of the God of the Bible, and using that bible for certain points like in your question, then be open to other points about God made throughout the whole bible.
I would like to see why you wonder why God shouldn't be jealous, and then answer that even if you get a satisfying answer, why that is good grounds for rejecting one's creator? I guess I am not seeing the point of this one.
A true Christian does not debate. We express opinions and practice random act of kindness. Christians also do not push their thoughts on others. However, we do not appreciate being bullied tech or etc.
If we are not sure of an issue we help find the answer.
Is that because debate requires thinking and honesty?
No, Christians do not express opinions, they regurgitate their indoctrinated beliefs.
An act of kindness does not include sending non-believers to hell.
True, they push their "beliefs" on others.
Neither do the people who are being sent to hell by Christians.
Christians do not have the power to send anyone to hell.
If a Christian follows you around attempting to convert you, then they are doing wrong.
It is just as wrong for you to do to them what you acuse them of doing.
to Getitrite, its becoming boring and insulting reading your rude responses to people trying to honestly answer your and others questions. Here is my question for you, would you think it a good belief system or a bad one, that calls for people to love and forgive, and do unto others as they do unto you? OR, do you think its good to continue on in the belief system you currently have that seems to support the way you treat people as seen here? (I am not sure what you believe exactly, I can only go by your responses as I have seen.)
If I was an onlooker here, I would have to not side with your belief system, and opt for a much kinder one that promotes more goodness to all people.
Sorry, it wasn't me this time. You got me confused with "Q"
If there is honestly in their response, please point it out.
That depends, does that belief system include sending those who don't follow those rules to a lake of hellfire for an eternity?
What belief system would that be? One in which I am the object of eternal hellfire?
I have no belief system as presented by believers, if that's what you mean.
Then, you should be an atheist and not a believer, yes?
I would much appreciate hearing your opinion as to if the prophesy that is written in the book of Daniel can be believed
And if they can/ When did this 62 weeks begin and when did they end?
In my mind this is an important issue. Because if we can determine these facts we would then have an equation comparing prophetic references of time compared to earthly time?
And why would this not be of most importance?
Ok. You could start by helping me find the answers to the questions I have posted, please. If you would be so kind.
Nikki, Its ok to discuss what you believe and why, and the Bible actually supports that, by asking us to give a reason to those that ask us, for the hope we have. If they ask us about the hope we have, then we should answer that. I am not sure its ever good to get into a discussion that starts right off with insults, put downs, and the putting the other side on the defensive and that points fingers and says, see?
Its a baiting of sorts, and there is often much much more going on. I respond some on occasion , only because I truly think its immoral for people to be rude to people and lie about them, and have no one call them on it.
Paul the apostle, debated with the philosphers of the day on Mars hill and elsewhere. He was happy to do so, because he had the truth and he knew the truth sets people free.
In my dream world, people debate over their beliefs about God because they want to get it right. However, in reality, it seems a lot of people just want to be right, and want others to think they're right also. I can't imagine any faith that honors a God that would endorse heated arguing about religious beliefs. But I also think that no hard questions on a topic as important as God should be avoided, and that reasonable adults should be able to talk about faith without it ending in taking up arms.
Very well stated. Something as important as our faith should be honestly investigated on an ongoing Basis..
Most people couldn't care less about getting it right. Most people want to be "right" even if it involves dishonesty.
Jealousy is described as follows; A man who works long hours every week takes his wife out to dinner and dancing. She is wearing the dress he bought her a couple weeks earlier. She dances with every man in the place except for him. Does he have a right to be jealous? Of course he does.
She is enjoying the company of every man except for the one who paid for what she wears and took her out to begin with.
God is the same way. He is the one who created us in the first place. We are the ones who went whoring after false gods and idols. Does He have a right to be jealous? Of course he does.
We pay no attention to Him whatsoever and many times we put Him down and mock Him.
Just had an after thought...
She wants ya to show up late.... pick up the check and immediately go back home and wait for her to get there...
Don't go to sleep cause she "MIGHT" ? want you to rub her soar legs.
Do ya have a right to feel jealous then ????
to define that jealousy would be to say that you are hurt and disapointed very much so.
You are mistaken, the mans jealousy is quite misplaced. His wife dances with every man in the place except for him because she is doing that for his sake, not for her. He is the luckiest man in the room as he will be the one who will go home with her where they can dance alone.
No, he doesn't. Your god must realize that if he bestows free will upon men, he certainly can't expect every single man to choose him. Some will not choose him and that is their choice to make. Your god needs to respect their choices if he allows them to choose, don't you think?
Would you ever offer someone a choice and then be jealous if they didn't choose what you wanted them to choose?
...Furthermore, no believer has given any answer to my question of "what would an omniscient, omnipotent, eternal being, who created all things, be jealous of?"
Try using your glasses. I wrote an answer to your question even thoiugh I did not direct at you personally.
A couple have disregared my answer and said it was false. I wonder what they would do if their wives were to do what I wrote.
No offense, but I think you misunderstood the question.
The example you gave was from a human perspective. God is much much much much much greater than humans. He made everything in this mind boggling universe, and is all powerful, omniscient, eternal and ubiquitous. He is the Alpha and Omega, etc. The question was not what is jealousy, but: What could He possibly be jealous of?
I can't think of anything that, any being holding that position, could possibly be jealous of.
"We are the ones who went whoring after false gods and idols. Does He have a right to be jealous? Of course he does."
God has emotions like we do. He gets angry, feels happy, etc. . .
Sorry, SirDent, but that answer does not stand up to logic.
It makes no sense that an omnipotent, omniscient, eternal being would give us free-will, then get pissed at us for making the wrong choice. He should get angry at himself, instead of relegating his incompetence to us. For he is God, and we, mere mortals. Everything we do is because of him--even making the wrong choices.
Do you not see that words like omnipotent, omniscient, eternal, creator...and jealous do not fit together? One word is out of place.
Again, this is proof that the God of the bible is not God, at all, but an insecure, incompetent, irresponsible, childish, mean, unfair, brutal, egotictical, unintelligent HUMAN.
When you cause an auto accident: do you blame it on the other driver for being there or do you blame it on your car?
Neither. I would blame it on me. I'm mature enough to take responsibility, unlike God.
It makes no sense that an omnipotent, omniscient, eternal being would give us free-will,
then get pissed at us for making the wrong choice.
Neither. I would blame it on me. I'm mature enough to take responsibility.
So you would like it if God were happy with your bad choices? And if your bad choices harmed or hurt others , God should be ok with that?
Yes, he should be ok with everything I do, if he made me. Whatever I do is a reflection of his handi-work. And being omniscient, the onus is on him to make me JUST to his specifications--lest he not be omniscient, omnipotent, etc.
Not my fault...His!
If His handiwork was for you to be allowed freedom and personal responsibility and you blow it and receive "true justice" based upon your intent.
You would see that this is fair and just and that He thought freedom with justice was good , no matter the consequences?
Try these arguments in a Court of Law.
I am not guilty of the crimes I committed, your Honor, because I didn't ask to be born . Blame that handiwork on my parents. I am not guilty by reason of irresponsibility.
These aren't logical arguments and quite frankly seem more like antisocial personality disorder.
if you have any children, don't tell me you have ever been mad w/ them, not even once.
You shouldn't be mad or disappointed in your children or your employee. Because you produced your children and you hired your employee.
"Yes, he should be ok with everything I do, if he made me. Whatever I do is a reflection of his handi-work. "
You used a bad analogy. The difference being that, unlike God, I'm not omniscient.
We are not "God's children" in the same sense that my children are my children...because I'm limited, but God is not.
I didn't "make" my children, I simply had sex. But God made every intricate part of each being, so how can you compare me to Him?
Why can't any of you see this. OMG!
Getritrite, if Sirdents answer doesn't make sense to you, or stand up to logic you should say how it doesn't stand up to logic. Instead you share your opinion, and let your assumptions and beliefs "drive" your debate here. Logic is specific, and you accused him of being illogical, but I thought what he said made perfect sense. It makes logical sense. As for you, I see a lot of put downs, and a definite negativity about a God you don't even believe in, if I am understanding your positon correctly.
Now, you also get to anwer, how has God not taken responsibility? He has done actually more than anyone could have ever expected. So can you back up some of your points? thanks
I think I was quite specific when I pointed out the inconsitency in the terminology that describes your God and the term jealousy. That is not an opinion.
And, yes I can back up some of my points, but you have to uncloud your mind of your delusion.
Proof that your God, if he really exists, is extremely irresponsible:
1. Your God allows thousands of innocent children to die of starvation, while promising to take care of his children.
2. Your God promises to answer prayers, but to this date, there is no evidence that he has answered any. Zero!
3. Your God, while claiming to be omniscient, blundered more than once in creating man perfectly, as he set out to do...and instead of taking responsibility, he kicked Adam & Eve out of the Garden. The second time he blundered, he drowned the whole world, excluding Noah, et al. The third time he sacrificed his own son.
Never ever taking responsibility! If I did the same things, I would hope you wouldn't see me as a responsible person.
So whose children are they?
Do you see children starving to death in any country that is governed by Christian principals and where the name of Christ is honoured?
Not true, if you were ever to spend time with serious and genuine believers, you would witness answered prayer all the time.
Your opinion, which you are entitled to, however any believer can see that the actual reality is different.
1. God gave humanity the option of remaining in perfect harmony with Himself, we chose not to do that, so (being now imperfect) He did remove us from His perfect environment and allowed us to follow our desires, which are imperfect and created this mess.
2. When God saw that the vast majority of humanity was totally depraved, he collected the remnant that had stayed faithful to Him, and disposed of the remainder that were seriously imperfect, and started a new environ. Humanity is ONE species in Gods Kingdom, He protected His creation from what had become a bad cancer that was destroying His creation.
He will do the same again, if need be.
3. He allowed US to sacrifice His own son, in order that WE could have a way out of the problems WE had created with our selfish free will desires.
You see it's a matter of perspective, you say our believers perspective is defective, God says yours is.
Matter of choice, Adam made his, humanity continues to make the wrong choices, God remains patient and allows us to get on with our depravity until it threatens His creation, then He takes the right action by removing the threat.
As He will do again soon.
Go ahead and just twist reality to suit your depraved delusion. What a bigotted comment to say that the creator cares more about you, and other followers of this silliness, than he does about others, who just happened to be born in a certain geographical location.
Your explanation is based on nothing but the brutal nonsense of an insane Christian mindset.
As someone else said, "no morals. None."
# Gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules, and obligations.
# Very low tolerance to frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression.
# Markedly prone to blame others or to offer plausible rationalizations for the behavior bringing the subject into conflict.
# Persistent irritability.
Every Anti-theist I have seen posting in here is exhibiting these traits of antisocial personality disorder
Nothing to do with location, everything to do with which spiritual power controls that location, if it's not Christ, then it's got to be Satan, take a look, all the bad things, the really bad things that humanity allows, happens in Satan's territory, that's not bigoted, thats just observation unclouded by personal bias.
Reduced to borrowing Marks tired old nonsense now! - and no personal attack there I presume, just your rational humanistic viewpoint expressing your deep love for mankind, and respect for others opinions....
So be it.
You have earned the disdain of your fellow man, keep digging.
I would have to say that you are trying to send the jury out to reach a verdict before all the evidence has been presented.
And attempting to present evidence as fact that is only opinion at best.
3. Your God, while claiming to be omniscient, blundered more than once in creating man perfectly, as he set out to do...and instead of taking responsibility, he kicked Adam & Eve out of the Garden. The second time he blundered, he drowned the whole world, excluding Noah, et al. The third time he sacrificed his own son.
jerami How do you know that God intended for mankind to remain in a state of perfection?
As far as Adam and Eve being KICKED OUT of the garden, I think that it was just time for them to go out into the world to populate it?
And if the angels came down and adulterated the gene pool? Why not start all over.
Can God answer all of my prayers even though my prayers contradict your prayers?
Ten diffrent people are praying to get the same single job.
Your expectations of what you think that God should do are much too high.
How can you say that you take responseability for your actions and be angry with a God that you say does not exist for not cleaning up after you?
Your arguements are fawed. A reasonable answer is imposible for such questions.
A reasonable answer is: God is imaginary. It solves the whole issue. Of course you would like to formulate some other erroneous answer to support your beliefs. And round and round we go.
Well; from now on, why don't tell us what the only acceptable answer is before you ask a question.
Can you look up wikipedia for "logic" or "discrepancy of logic" before you claim someone is being illogical or saying something illogical?
There is a set of rule for logics. Try to pinpoint the exact rule that is violated before you use the word illogical, please.
So after I look up the word logic, and determine that I was woefully out of context, will I, all of a sudden, start to believe that snakes can talk..that deities impregnate human virgins..that a burning bushes, cleverly disguised as God, talked..that you are not delusional? Get real.
How is deities impregnate human virgins illogical?
How is talking sankes being illogical?
I have no problem with you choosing to not believe them for now, but I have problem with you chooising not to explain why you said what you said.
Just because you weren't there to see it so you said it didn't happen is illogical.
For example, if I said, "Alien doesn't exist" it's not an illogical statement, but is an assumption, but if I explain the assumption with "because I never saw one" then it's illogical. It's argument from ignorance.
please look it up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
Basically a lot of what you just said are arguments from ignorance.
Just explain your disbelief with reasons and evidence. Please.
"How is deities impregnate human virgins illogical?"
It is illogical because it has never happened before. Do you personally know of a proven case existing in the annuls of science? If not, it is illogical! Just because it is written in a fictional book means nothing in the least! Therefore, it is illogical!
Again, another good example of argument from ignorance here.
You can't say its illogical just because you think it can't be proven by science.
That's common abuse and misconception of logic that pseudo-self-proclaimed-scientific people do.
You said it has never happened before. Were you there?
Also do you know how little science has discovered and how much they have are only theories and can be changed anytime subjected to new evidences? and that many of their discussion/theories haven't been established as facts?
As far as facts go, most scientific facts had been taught up to grade 12, and beyond that they start to teach things that haven't been proven but what they think is plausible.
Did you study science beyond grade 12?
What on earth are you talking about? We must also use some common sense here.
This is an illogical, irrational argument. You think because no one was there - this is an argument in favor?
Yours is an argument from desperation, and really - dishonest. The burden of proof is on the one making the wholly irrational statement - you.
1) Again, tell me which rule of logic did I violate to call my argument illogical.
2) I didn't put any burden of proof on you. You did it to yourself by claiming something as illogical without explaining why you said it's illogical.
3) "This is an illogical, irrational argument. You think because no one was there - this is an argument in favor? " What were you talking about? please be precise and elaborate
I wasn't the one who introduce a statement. You were the one who did so you got to show people why you claim something is illogical.
Again, tell me which statement did I make that I need to bear the "burden of proof"?
So - you are not claiming that a deity impregnated a human woman then?
You are just claiming that some one saying a deity impregnating a woman is irrational is in fact an irrational statement itself, because there is no proof this did not happen and unless one was actually there or has some other proof that it did not happen then one cannot logically make the claim.
This is the problem with your religion. It causes conflict because people who defend it resort to lies and semantics to do so.
You feel no burden of proof because you did not originally make the statement? Another religionist did. Not your statement. No burden of proof.
You are just attacking any gainsayers because they have no proof it did not happen.
Did I get that right?
Thanks. I read quite a bit of the wiki article. Interesting! Will comment after I finish reading.
After reading the entire article, it appears that this is the same old argument: "If God doesn't exist, then prove it"
So according to this model nothing can be proven to not exist. To use this fallacy to argue your point shows desperation. Unbelievable!
You are making claims about god that are not in the bible. Hence, these are only your personal opinions about your god and nothing more.
It seems that believers are not answering anything...anything at all. They fail to see that their opinions, based in superstition, are not answers.
Why is there a need to define common words such as jealousy?
Just answer the question, already.
You can not expect any higher quality of an answers than the quality of your question.
iantoPF wrote: Christians however, when you present them with serious challenging questions they reduce it to name calling and change the discussion from honest questioning to unpleasant acrimony.
Jerami, mine was a serious challenging question, and, yet, you have reduced it to a substandard inquiry, deficient in quality.
And that's only because your religion doesn't even equip you with the means to support it. You should really look elsewhere for truth. Your beliefs require too much dishonesty.
I am so tired of seeing the put downs, its like there isn't anything else to work with for some people. I think thats a tough belief system to "own" if that is what is required. You can't come in to a discussion that is being fair to all sides, thinking and responding like you are sorry, but its true.
Believers don't see it that way. In fact, they are unable to conceptualize a world without their gods. To them, that makes as much sense as flying pigs.
I think its great to see that christians actually aren't ignoring the hard questions, including the one that started this discussion.
Its good to be honest and open and not let preconceived beliefs enter in and make one biased against a whole group of people or belief system.
I appreciate atheists that are the most fairminded in their thinking, that don't resort to put downs and insulting when in a tight spot. I like it especially when they don't come "out of the gate" with insults and generalizations.
If they do that too much, there is no point in debating or discussing, as that is clearly not the goal.
getitrite Said ...Jerami, mine was a serious challenging question, and, yet, you have reduced it to a substandard inquiry, deficient in quality.
Jerami said ... As was my answer which you do not want to accept. I just gave the answer below on another thread, It should answer many of your questions, from my prospective.
Jerami said... You would be absolutely correct "IF" life here on this earth was all that there is.
You would be absolutely correct "IF" this physical life were the prize.
"IF" there is nothing better than this after death;
that would also mean that there is no God for you to blame for letting the children die.
And if there is a God to blame; those that have died go to a better place. thus nothing to blame God for.
You can not have it both ways.
Well folks, I believe its no other point to debate god other than to reason with the fear to embrace him. Fear rules everywhere and its fear that is evil and bad. I think we all got god inside of us it’s just a matter of daring to choose.
I don’t give much for the bible or any other religious book either. Because all that we need to know is all ready there. If the bible is a manual then it might be inspiring or badly translated, missed important explanations or whatever any other manual would be for us. The real stuff is what counts so just do it! Don’t let fear divide you from yourself, from us or from god.
So long :-)
A person doesn't need to know the all the answers to all the questions and mysteries of the world, to find a belief and worldview that fits best with what we do see. Many religions and views are vying for that position, as everyone wants to be right. If they find strong opposition, they do many things with that, as we see, including insulting and putting down, using ad hom attacks and assumptions and generalizations to weaken the other side. No one would have to do that if they just had good arguments and were on to something good. Good questions, aren't questions that have presuppositions built into them, and we need to learn to turn that around and ask them to reword or explain what they mean in the question. If a question seemingly can't be answered, it doesn't mean that the person failed, or that their worldview failed. There will always be unanswered questions.
Truth still lines up best with what we see in this universe and people. We need to seek what would best explain that.
The belief systems of the world do not mirror our world in any way, shape or form, they are merely the myths and superstitions of the Bronze Age.
They all appear to be quite wrong.
That is why religions promote nothing but conflict and hatred.
It is the claims of believers that are under question, and it is those questions of their claims they cannot answer.
No, truth does not line up with what we see, truth has nothing to do with our universe.
Of course, you are free to align your so-called truth with reality, if you are able.
(Q) Your observations tell you that many believers are quite wrong, and after having been a Christian for many years, I too, discovered that to be true.
Christians who read this, don't panic.
(Q) There are a lot of white noises in the background. If you know what I mean by that in terms of mathematics. White noises can hide the real truth behind a statistics graphs.
Just because there were a lot of wrongs and misinterpretation, doesn't mean the biblical God and biblical truth don't exist. It only means that most of the Christianity and Christians have many wrongs and misinterpretations in their religion. And I don't like religion.
Faith is a process that we believers are supposed to grow with, and in this process we have to face many crisis of faith. For example, here are my personal crisis: God promised healing. He said He already healed us (Isaiah 53:5) and we are able to live sinless (Romans 6-8), but many Christians are sick and sinning.
How do we reconcile with what the Bible said and what our experience tells us?
God also promised prosperity if we fulfill X, Y, or Z, but many Christians claim that we are supposed to be poor, or "sky is not always blue", blah blah blah. But no where in the Bible says we are supposed to be poor and owe debts like some Christians do.
This is the negativity of religion. Bible says one thing, and they invent other doctrines to override it.
Here is my assumptions: (where white noise come from)
1) Christians who are poor and sick are because of "word of faith". They asked for it by claiming it, by believing they should be poor and sick. Because of the power of religion, they manifested a poor and sick life.
2) Half or more of the Christians could be unbiblical. They don't even know that. Yet they spoke on behalf of the Bible. Folks who haven't become a believer, such as you, may read the Bible objectively and think, "hey, that's not what the Bible says" and you think, this religion is Bull. Yes, religion is bull.
3) Many other "Christians" are actually God's enemies!! It's so easy for Satan to do it. For the sake of argument I invite all of you beloved unbelievers to assume the Bible is true for a moment. If the Bible is true, and biblical God and Satan exist. Don't you think Satan would imitate the genuine movements of the "church" and create a monster version of it to deceive the true sheeps and fair unbelievers like you?
Don't you know the "Church" ---i.e. the Catholic Church had killed 50 millions Christians who believed in the written Bible for the last 1000+ years? They burned them on the stake and call them heretics
Also, the person who finally try to print English version Bible and distribute it to average lay person, William Tyndale, got burnt on stake.
So here's the deal. Let's use logic to debate the issue and read the Bible and really try to challenge it fairly, and see what happens.
Logic is a set of rule. To be honest, I seldom see atheists use good logic or abide in rule of logic when argue with the Bible. They think that the Bible is illogical. Which in itself is an unproved, unsupported statement. Or they say there is no God, yet they think there is no such thing as absolute. So how can some of you guys believe absolutely in no God and yet believe in no such thing as absolute?
So you think truth has to be lining up with what you see? Have you seen the Trueman Show? Trueman see everything in a false world. So what he sees isn't truth, but what is really outside of his world is truth.
The other thing is, you can't see electricity, but if you channel it into electronics, it power them, and theory manifested into daily reality.
The Bible teaches about manifestation of truth and the deceptions that hide the truth. Look it up.
Of course, which is why we also have to give ALL religions who profess their gods exist the same levity of assumption. I agree.
It also means that Christianity is but one of many religions who also misinterpret their doctrines.
As well, how does one reconcile the bible with all the other scriptures of other religions?
I can read the bible and read other religions scriptures to plainly see they are all just myths and superstitions, largely based on myths and superstitions of the religions they supplanted. The actions of believers are yet another story of contradiction and hypocrisy.
Ok, let's start with this:
"In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth."
Hmmm, looks like we already hit a point of debate in which no believer has been able to move beyond without injecting magic and mystery into their supporting argument.
You mean, just like the illogical, unproved, and unsupported claim of god creating the heavens and the earth?
When Christians, or any other believers attempt to demonstrate their gods, they fail, absolutely. It is merely an observation of fact.
So, you've never seen or heard of lightning? You've never seen electricity arc from one conductor to another? Curious.
Science demonstrates electricity, look it up.
1) "So, you've never seen or heard of lightning? You've never seen electricity arc from one conductor to another? Curious."
You just committed an informal logical fallacy called "Ignoratio elenchi". Look it up.
2) "I can read the bible and read other religions scriptures to plainly see they are all just myths and superstitions, largely based on myths and superstitions of the religions they supplanted."
So how much did you read the Bible? You simply said "I can read...and see they are all just...." What an obvious assumption.
I noticed you didn't quote a lot of Bible here and yet you keep saying how illogical, unproved it is. Can you just explains the dozens of assumptions you just made in this forum? Can you focus on proving the Bible wrong by bringing up the scripture one point at a time without getting distracted by other stuff? Respect our time here please.
Ok, let's start with this:
"In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth."
Hmmm, looks like we already hit a point of debate in which no believer has been able to move beyond without injecting magic and mystery into their supporting argument.
Check Evolution Theory and compare it with the Bible. See which one is magic and mystery.
So, you've never seen or heard of lightning? You've never seen electricity arc from one conductor to another? Curious.
"Appeal to ridicule" doesn't help you here. (Another informal logical fallacy. Please check) You simply make yourself appear less smart by missing the point I was trying to bring across here when I used to analogy of electricity.
I am sure everyone can see my point except you. You think ridicule is smart.
My advice is, don't try to make a fool of yourself.
We all spend our precious time to "answer your hard question" here, so please respect our time here. If you waste your time and our time on ego play or ridicule, then that's the primarily reason Christians avoid the "hard question".
So, you haven't seen lightning or electricity arcing, I ask you that question again as you have claimed you can't see electricity when clearly we can. You are either ignorant of this fact or you are lying. Which is it?
All of it. Duh.
I only need to quote the opening phrase to demonstrate that. There is plenty more if you're able to get past that phrase.
Unlike believers, I understand evolution and know there is no magic and mystery, although you're free to demonstrate if you can. The bible, on the other hand is full of it, literally.
Your point was moot. Plain and simple. There was no point made other than your demonstration of your ignorance of electricity.
You revealed a lot of ignorance in the real logic.
Study logic 101 in college that offers it.
Stop pretending you know logic or science. You don't even see your logical fallacies in a lot of your writing in this forum. Please stop showing more of your weaknesses in logic and call other people illogical. It's feel bad to look at what you are doing to yourself.
Ask any educated philosopher, "In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth." as a statement has no logical fallacy in it.
You either prove it false or you prove it right, but if you call it false or illogical the burden of proof is on you to prove and explain why you think so.
Can you see electricity in you bath tub if your hair dryer falls into it connecting to a power outlet?
You are free to point out any fallacies at your convenience and educate me of my alleged ignorance, you have not done so, as yet.
I don't feel bad at all exposing nonsense, hypocrisy and contradiction. You might feel bad having been one who has been recognized as providing it and being exposed as a result.
I'm asking YOU, not any educated philosopher. You have no answers, then?
The complete lack of evidence and observation from the claimants is ample proof of their false and illogical claims. They might as well claim a giant lizard sneezed the universe out of its nostrils. Same thing.
A knowledge of electricity would greatly benefit your position and your lack of an argument.
You still don't understand what I am saying.
You are the one to bear the burden of proof because you are the one who call other people illogical here.
So please prove how they are illogical and show it.
P.S. I already showed you two of the logical fallacies you committed. Just check 2 posts up (my posts). I even named the fallacies. You simply ignored them and claimed that "you have not done so, as yet. "
Exactly and well said. Anti-theist invariably claim that believers are stupid and delusional to the point of vilification or even propaganda or dehumanization tactics. That any faith somehow automatically equates to being illogical or irrational.
I have faith that the sun will shine tomorrow. I dont have proof. But I believe it to be true.
Then contradict their own ad hominem attacks on believers expecting them to:
Somewhat like a child pulling at their fathers coattails will beg believers to tell them all the mysteries of the universe. Although claiming they are stupid, expecting them to know and relate the ineffable .
I like where you are going with this. Yes. Stupid, delusional, illogical, irrational all apply to believing in an invisible Sky Daddy.
So - that has nothing to do with the fact that you have seen the sun rise every single day of your life without fail?
You just have faith that it will based on god sed it?
This is known as "lying for jeebus".
Stupid, delusional, illogical, irrational a an invisible Sky Daddy.
god sed it?
This is known as "lying for jeebus". wink
You should really brush up on your troll rhetoric . This stuff is so 10 minutes ago .
Is their a forum troll refresher course thread?
You make baby dawkins cry
Aww sorry. The truth hurts, I know. I love your passive aggressive attacks though. Very educational. I can't help myself. When I see condescending passive aggressive behavior, I immediately think "christian," and proceed to make fun.
I think "stupid, delusional, illogical, irrational" all apply to a belief in the Lord God Almighty - don't you?
I call him the invisible Sky Daddy. I am allowed.
Because you're a troll disinterested in actual debate. You're not intellectually equipped to bring anything to the table.Just one personal attack or condescending remark after another .Not even good ones I might add
I don't think any of the theists that are in this religion and beliefs forum are interested in joining your anti-theist hate cults or giving your Preacher Dawkins (which most of you rob your poorly thought out notions from) the time of day .
it seems that the blue Jays do not want a discussion, they just want the airspace so no one else has it. How selfish.
I am open to debate. All I have seen from you is condescending passive aggressive attacks.So - go ahead - offer something for debate instead of attacks and I am up for it.
Love the fact that you need to hide behind another troll name though. Very indicative of your personality - sooner than later.
I havent seen you debate yet. Especially without ad homs and rhetoric
This is rich, coming from someone with only 16 hubs and using an alias to hide behind! LOL!
And the amount of hub I have is relevant how? And the fact that your noting the amount and curious to my real name makes me glad I dont use my real name .
Thats odd behavior . You dont have any debate but more interested in digging into someones personal information.
Aww - are you scared of attacks by nasty atheists sooner than later? Guess Jeebus won't protect you after all?
Seems more like a precursor to cyber stalking than debate, yes?
So - you are scared? I don't blame you. I think this garbage about god looking after his own is garbage also. Sensible - atheistic thinking. Rational even. I agree - Jesus is not looking out for you. He never existed. The Sky daddy is not looking out for you either. You should be scared. Well done.
Go on - make up a few lies about me sending you emails now.
You were the person accusing others of being trolls. This is relevent to your statement! Others use their real names, while you hide like a little girl. Why are you frightened? Afraid your god won't protect you? HAHAHAHA!
And why do you assume I have no debate?
you hide like a little girl. Why are you frightened? Afraid your god won't protect you? HAHAHAHA!
And why do you assume I have no debate?
Because its obvious?
Just as it is obvious you are afraid to use your real name! BOK BOK!
Playground futility, get some originality into your insults and slurs.
I truly am impressed by the intellectual prowess of someone actually saying " BOK BOK " to me .
I even have a mental picture of him flapping his arms while saying it .
Of course I would be even more impressed if he actually achieved flight wilst doing the flapping thing.
...and is Randy Godwin your real name, care to post a copy of your birth certificate or passport to prove it?
Of course not, some nutter may find out where you live, get real, we all use avatars, but like I have said, my full identity is revealed in my hubs, for those who read them, and my email is on open view in my profile for anyone who cares to contact me.
Yes! This is my real name! I like to stand behind my statements, not hide behind an alias like you and others. You are doing god's work, aren't you? Won't he protect you? Why not ask him and find out? Or did he tell you to hide already!
Like I said Randy, I'm not hiding, but you trolls just need to read my hubs to see my full history and identity, it's not hidden, you just have to work to find out.
Now I guess you will post some proof of ID to prove your statement?
I deal with KYC all the time, so don't tell me that I'm afraid, God has protected me for all my life, I just did not recognise it until I came to faith.
I once had a seriously deranged guy tell me that the devil had told him to kill me as I slept (he was staying in my house whilst we ministered to him) and when he got his knife out ready to slay me, he just got paralyzed and could not do it.
Another time I saw a full grown man, high on drink and drugs, and intent on killing me, bounce six feet and hit a wall when I commanded him to stop in the name of Christ.
Don't presume what you have no knowledge about.
Wow - you are my new hero. And as you do not have a history of lying I am totally down with this dude.
Deary me. How low will you go?
Speaking of a history of lying;
8 months ago this was written. It can be found at the link below.
But Mark you are still here, spouting the same old same old, doesn't that make you a liar, or did you start posting again by popular demand LOL
Oh! I thought you said you were going to sleep and leaving us to ply "footsie." But no, you are still here.LOL!
Came back for my cell phone to set the alarm and saw Sir Dent bring up Marks 'resignation' post, couldn't resist the reply, but I am off to slumber now, it's nearly 5am where I am.....yawn.
Nite Randy, have fun.
Low resistance, huh? Don't worry about it though, a common trait of believers as evidenced on this thread. Sleep the sleep of the Just! But watch out for those stalkers and be ready to yell if they get too close! They could use your god granted powers in Iraq or Afghanistan I bet!
Yes. I was invited back. LOL that Dent keeps bringing this up and pretends he did not say the same.
Odd that you think you are being "loving" also. Guess that is Kristian Love? "Bend over and take it like a man it is for your own good" sort of love? I understand Daddy.
No morals. None.
Fortunately for Dent, his god forgave him! LOL!
I defend my brothers and sisters. You have been proven to be a liar. No matter who invited you back, you went against your own word.
You can try and justify it all you want. I told you before if you stopped calling people liars, I would stop reminding you of your lie.
And yours? Did you lie for Jesus? Many religious people, including a pope or two, believed it was okay to lie in order to gain recruits to your religion. But after all, it is the nature of your brethren.
Have you ever caught me up in a lie? If so, point it out. If not, oh well. . .
You said you knew who wrote the bible! Unless you are lying you can tell me who wrote it and when. Facts only!
It was written before the foundation of the world. It was written by Jesus.
Why do you call upon God whom you believe does not exist?
I was moved by the spirit, after witnessing what seemed to be a serious meltdown on your part.
Why did you assume G meant God? Goodness works just as well, even better if you want to be logical!
I have seen people try to weasel their way out of that many times. I am not as ignorant as you think.
Let me do my own "judging" and you can do the same! Where did you find out Jesus wrote the bible? In the bible? Using the bible to prove itself right? No, I think you are just as ignorant as I think! If not, you will tell me where you found out Jesus was born thousands of years earlier than the bible says. I'll be waiting for your answer.
So why hide if you have so much power? I do not worry about "nutters" looking me up because of my opinions. They would do so at their own peril, at any rate. You believer "trolls" all seem to be so afraid of others finding you. I don't know why though!
First Randy, I have more hubs than you, so I'm hardly a troll, secondly I actually reply with real comments, not just flip one liners designed to hijack threads, thirdly who cares about needing to hide, you're never going to travel to Penang to find me...
...and even if you did, your comments show me that you are wind and blather, so what's the problem?
Tell you what, I'll post my passport ID up here if you will also do so, then we will both know who each other is....
...or is that a mite too real for you to do?
Guess you don't say the same thing to 'Q' huh! 3 hubs and a BIG troll forum life.
Or is that OK as he plays on your tag team?
Only 3 hubs for Mr Q ?
Jots the letter Q down in a notepad and puts a mark against it.
wait , 2 marks , one for 3 hubs and another for an alias lol
Whereas you look pretty real to me, been here one month less than Mark, just 13,930 posts less than him...........hmmmm you must write more posts to catch up, the easy way is to develop one boring format and then just repeat it continuously, rather like some folk do with their hubs as well.
It seems to work!
Comment by Q a few posts above...
"If you think they are veiled insults, then you are taking a religious ideology personally, which is not my fault."
Of course it is not your fault Q! Take a dose of your own medicine already!!!! Holly
Holly, if you make claims that others are trolling your posts because they don't agree with you, then it wouldn't make sense to continue responding to those whom you claim are trolling.
I am a christian, ask me a difficult question... and I shall answer... lol
20 mins gone... afraid to ask me a question?? Afraid that I will answer it??
Okay! Did God really think the tower of Babel would reach heaven?
If so, why isn't he preventing space travel?
if your pro then debate as a con if con debate as pro that's debating
Randy Godwin wrote:
Okay! Did God really think the tower of Babel would reach heaven?
If so, why isn't he preventing space travel?
If ya realy want an answer ?? I think that the story wasn't about the tower but the advanced technology for that time. So the languares were all messed up as to keep everything in his origional plan. As the story goes any way.
So now god has learned his lesson and science is okay? Hmmm. doesn't seem to be the way an all knowing entity would react to a harmless tower.
Whoever made up this story was too ignorant to know a tower could not be built higher than many mountains. Just more myths and superstition by common men!
I honestly answered your question to the best of my ability, and your answer seemed like a put down.
Why did you ask the question if you didn't want an answer??
I know. You said to yourself.
"Let me go someplace where I think that they are all stupid." "Were I am pretty sure, that I can win a battle of the witts. Then I can feel better about who I am cause I need my superiority fix"
That can't be the reason can it ??? Surely NOT !
Because the answer you gave is the same as many give when trying to explain why the bible should not be taken literally. Everything in the bible is open to interpretation so nothing is certain in the stories.
Doesn't this story make God seem ignorant of physics and technology. A lotta trouble to change everyone's languages so they could not do something already impossible. One of the dumbest stories in the bible, no doubt. And this was after the Native Americans were already here.
Not trying to win a battle of the wits! Just trying to see if you have any at all as far as the bible is concerned. Are you satisfied with your answer? Does it actually clear anything up at all? You tell me!
Randy I wasn't defending the literal truth of all of scripture, or of this story. I answered directly to your question as it was stated.
Peter might have felt the same way when he said that prophesy in scripture has no personal interpretation. This to me insinuates that the rest of scripture can be interpreted. But not prophesy.
My understanding of prophesy points to there being a false religion rising to power that teaches false doctrine, And creates the turmoil that the Atheists on here are accusing Religion to have done since it arrived in 326AD.
This being true does not disprove the existence of a God.
Cause he warned everyone that this was going to happen.
What I am concerned about is that when prophesy is studied as written; without the aid of interpretation to confuse the issue, the 42 months of this false religion is due to be over very soon and when it does it is not going to go out with a whimper.
We can see where everything in the world is headed. From politics, religion, economics. earth quakes, global warming, the earth tilting on its axis, and the list goes on.
Mayan predictions, Nostradamus' predictions all pointing to completion around the same time as biblical prophesy is actualy stated.
The fact that everyone thinks that it is all just a joke is what concernes me. Maybe we should add mass insanity to the list stated above right there beside global warming?.
Why would your god want to have "his inspired words" written in such a way they would be confusing and, in some cases, completely illogical? This seems counterproductive to gaining adherents to his flock.
The tower of Babel is only one example of this. Why use a story which has no bearing on any truth? The bible scripture should not have to be interpreted if god really wants the word out. It should make sense occasionally.
I wouldn't think that "God" did do anything with the intentions of it being put in a book.
If he did it would have been only those things that he sent his messenger "Angels" to deliver.
As far as any of the prophets?? They were not sent to the people to give them stuff to write in a book so that a group of people thousands of years later would know what to do.
If he sent a "Prophet" to the people it was to give those people information that those people needed to know, not to put in a book.
Ya gotta remember who assembled the book and how it was presented.
That is my take on it anyway.
Neither you nor I know who wrote the fictional book. The gospel "according to" means someone ghost wrote them. Several are suspected to be plagiarized versions of the same book. How anyone can put the least bit of faith in words which we have no means of knowing who wrote, is beyond me. Hearsay at the very best of scenarios!
I agree .......... I agree
Even if their identity could be proven that means nothing.
If God were to come to me and tell me something...
It would not be so I could write a book for someone to read 2 or 3 thousand years later. Any thing that the desciples were writing they were for their eyes only sorta thing.
I agree with ya on that issue.
"IF" God had wanted something written down for posterity it would be for prophetic purposes only.
Glad we agree, Jerami! It is sad some think their book could be holy and at the same time be so corrupted with contradictions and illogical stories. It was written for the frightened and insecure and works quite well to control them.
Now I do believe in a God. I just believe that you and many others are correct about the importance of many of these stories. They could have some truth to them. And probably do/did before they were misinterpreted 100s' and 1000s' of times
In my mind the prophesy do make sense only when we consider that they tell of a false religion that Misleads everyone that wants to follow Gods laws. And if it is possible even the most righteous will be fooled.
It is written (1900 years ago) that the time "is at hand", "even at the door" and "must shortly come to pass".
Does it not make sense that the false religion will interpret these messages into the realm of meaningless trivia
This is NOT saying that everyone that are fooled into believing the false doctrine do not gain salvation.
I think that the difference is; do they worship their religion cause it is going to save them ...
or do they worship GOD because God saves..
So, as I have said before; I believe there is a truth lying half way between our two camps.
I happen to think most worship their particular god because their parents tell them to do so. Otherwise, we would all worship the same deity!
I myself am not saying that they are not the same one.
Not my job to worry about what and who everyone else are doing or worshiping.
Not my job to convert anyone about anything. If asked what I think about anything, I will tell ya what I think and do it as respectfully as I know how.
Good enough for me! You are one of the most honest of the believers here.
I take that as a GREAT compliment and say back atcha as far as your being honest with what ya think and being respectful while doing it.
But I do know who wrote the Bible. Jesus read from the Old Testament and quoted from it many times.
It makes no difference if you believe it or not. The Bible says the heavens declare the glory of God. The sparrow praises God when it sings, yet many men are willingly ignorant of God.
The comic books say Popeye likes spinach!
The Old Testament was around long before Jesus, so I am going to have to call you a liar on that one, Dent! Unless you can prove me wrong, of course!
It all makes sense if people could just garner the courage to be honest, and admit that the answer is: God is imaginary.
"When in doubt, tell the truth."
Seven hubs and a whole lot of opinions, that makes sense, must make you an expert on something or other, or maybe just everything?
Anyone who has had a Holy Spirit encounter knows that God is far from imaginary, you just have a non aligned spirit that is under the control of spiritual forces you are blinded to.
I accept that, and hope that one day you will reach awareness of who Christ really is.
Now I am away to sleep, so you guys can play footsy with each other without further responses.... have fun!
And thanks for reassuring many of us we are making the right decision.
A person's intellect is not measured by how many hubs he has written on a website, just in case you want to use this in the future to devalue opinions you can't digest.
You know absolutely nothing about any of my other accomplishments, yet to defend your absurd faith, you are willing to try this foolish tactic.
If you represent what God wants us to be, then God is pure nonsense.
You say your God is far from imaginary, yet none of you believers have provided any evidence whatsoever to the contrary.
That puts the argument firmly in favor of the non-believer.
Your God has every attribute of an imaginary being, yet you still declare him to be real, without one shred of evidence. That's a form of madness!--And, yet you doubt my acumen? LOL
In all honesty, you lost this debate when you logged on.
I supposed that churning out accusations/statements/assumptions in this thread is easier for you guys because you don't want to make an effort to
1) Back up and explain when you say something is illogical
2) Accept the burden of proof when you are the one who introduce a challenge or statement. Those who say something first to another person without proof or evidence bear the burden of proof.
3) Focus on one point at a time, but expanding the arguments and branching off topic in every post when someone want to address what you said in a previous post.
4) Study real logic and abide in its rule when you conduct your arguments.
Man this is getting frustrating to have a debate like this.
I don't want to commit the logical fallacy of "red herring" here.
So I would rather refrain and wait for you guys to explain all your accusations of other being "illogical" "unproved" first, before I go on to start a new topic to debate.
The so called debated has already been going on, so lets focus on fulfilling your "burden of proof" first, before we can branch off and debate new stuff.
Remember, the burden of proof is on the accusing side first. After the accusation is explained and demonstrated, only then, is the burden of proof fall to the defensive side.
Since you guys keep saying people are 'illogical" you guys need to explain.
For example, you can't just keep accusing people of committing murders, tell the Judge how, when, where, and evidences.
Why not take the time to reflect on your claim about electricity before you start debating.
A misunderstanding of the burden of proof fallacy has been demonstrated time and again by believers who fallaciously assign this burden to the criticism of the claims of believers.
It's perfectly alright for believers to claim anything they want from the archives of the supernatural and not provide a shred of evidence or even a logical response without injecting magic and mystery.
When the empty claims of theists are presented, the conclusions to their claims can only be taken as such; empty.
You may search for a lot of Christian written sites on Science, creation, and proof. They have plenty of articles that answer a lot of your frequently questions.
Yes, they are FAQ. Many people think they come up with a new and unique, but in fact a tired and old one that is answered before.
The burden of proof is on the one making the original statement.
So you do not believe in the invisible super being? No son of god for you? Good for you. We don't have a problem.
I am not telling you that you believe illogical, irrational garbage.
Oh wait - I thought you believed in the invisible super being?
Now I am confused. I cannot have an opinion that does not need to be proven, and your statement stands without scrutiny? Interesting. I can see why it is frustrating for you.
Liars for Jesus. No wonder you cause so much hatred and ill will. Bet Jeebus be dun right prowd.
Not even angry. I am just smiling at how you guys keep doing what I said you were doing.
Even passer-by can tell the loopholes in your arguments now.
Until next time!
Go to http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/44441?p … ost1046032 and see what I have already pointed out.
And this http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/44441?p … ost1042617
So using this model, if I declared that the belief in imaginary beings is logical, that too would be a false statement, until I could prove it.
You introduce standards that are so bizarre, that it would take at least 5o pages of dialogue to debate this issue. And for what ultimate purpose?: To support your absurd belief in nonsense.
Your delusion is what is making this debate frustrating.
"So using this model, if I declared that the belief in imaginary beings is logical, that too would be a false statement, until I could prove it.
You introduce standards that are so bizarre, that it would take at least 5o pages of dialogue to debate this issue. And for what ultimate purpose?: To support your absurd belief in nonsense. "
isn't it what a logical debate is about? Someone introduce a premise, attack it or prove it, and the opponent negate that premise, and defend or explain the reason for challenges.
"You introduce standards that are so bizarre, that it would take at least 5o pages of dialogue to debate this issue. And for what ultimate purpose?: To support your absurd belief in nonsense. "
So do you want a real debate? Or do you just want somebody to listen to how you call them "illogical" "absurd" "nonsense" all day long?
It seems that you just want your opponents to call you right and admit whatever you call them, and no debate, that's it.
Just come up with a challenge for a bible text, and then Google it, you will find many answers.
Make sure you focus on one issue at a time, don't branch off.
Yes, yes - run away. You do not have any burden of proof. None.
Focus on that. You can say anything and you do not need to prove it. Anyone who questions the utter garbage you spout now has the burden of proof.
No wonder your religion causes so many wars.
Answers from deluded Christians, I suppose.
Are there any answers from the atheist viewpoint...and, if so, which answers should I rely on to be the truth, the religionist or the atheist?
After googling several questions, it seems that the Christian authority has to re-create reality in order for the text to make sense.
Also, when all else fails, literal is immediately changed to symbolic. With this method of interpretation, the sky is the limit. It's like heads, I win! tails, you lose!
From just instinct alone, I can smell dishonesty. And where there is dishonesty there is trickery. You are being tricked, and you don't even have the sense to know it. Pity.
Thank you for validating my non-belief.
So, essentially what you're saying is that if we have any hard questions to ask Christians, you will be of no help at all and that we are to find out for ourselves?
Gee, thanks. Are there any other questions we shouldn't ask you?
21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?"
22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.
13:30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished.
I searched and found nothing to explain the conundrum presented in the two passages above. One from the Old Testament and one from the New Testament.
I'm left with the understanding that either Jesus was a liar, or that the author of Deuteronomy was a liar.
the Deuternonomy passage was talking about "test for false prophet"
What Jesus said in Mark is talking about fulfillment of his own prophecies.
Almost let this slipped if I did not revisit this thread to check if I miss out anything.
Furthermore, after studying real logic, I guess I would have to conclude that the belief in the Pink Unicorn, Flying Spaghetti Monster, Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy, and God is neither logical or illogical, but mere propositions.
So anyone beliefing in any of the above mentioned would not be illogical or logical, until I can prove otherwise, respectively.
Maybe the word "IS" is illogical. No! Wait! It is not logical or illogical until I prove it to be one or the other.
I guess it's all according to what the word "IS" is.
"Furthermore, after studying real logic, I guess I would have to conclude that the belief in the Pink Unicorn, Flying Spaghetti Monster, Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy, and God is neither logical or illogical, but mere propositions."
Yes, so evolution, believing humans were basically evolved from basically nothing isn't "logical or illogical either", but the explanation for that, I can't guarantee.
I am glad that finally someone starts to understand what I said about logic.
Seems like a real logical debate could really start soon, when most people come to his sense and start to abide the basic rule of logic.
Here is an example
"Your God has every attribute of an imaginary being, yet you still declare him to be real, without one shred of evidence."
just here you made at least 2 assumptions (Without further explains them and give examples to illustrate).
"Your God has every attribute of an imaginary being." you simply mix up imaginary being with unseen being.
For example, have you seen 1700s India? Have you seen a 100 BC China?
How do you know they are not imaginary?
And what is the attribute of an imaginary being? Attribute as in how your define it to be? You can't just make up some new definition or new concepts and assume they are right, without going through a set of logical procedure.
Stop introducing self-made definition or standard to the world so casually and then build your arguments based on that new self introduced definition and standard. This is a logical fallacy that called "Bare assertion fallacy"
i don't see that to be a hard question. the tower one. i think all those story's are simply metaphors . and id answer any question concerning biblical story's as being such.
King James was a book salesman? And King James didn't write the bible. He had others translate it at his request.
Have you sold more books than Joseph Smith? LOL!
real things have and are still worshiped as gods. not all gods are imaginary.
And if the world doesn't have some terrible catastrophe pretty soon, will this mean you are totally mistaken in your thought about the future, or will you just put it down to a bad "interpretation" and try another? Or will you finally realize it is all a crock? No, don't answer that!
"To-day do I brew, to-morrow I bake,
The next day the Queen's child I'll take
She'll never know, just the same
That Rumpelstiltskin is my name.
i like to think there is a god somewhere out there creating suns . and so unaware of us and whats behind it . i hope that this god doesn't even know we exist
fish dont bother god . lions dont worship one. bears dont write books for it . i think god if there is one likes it that way .
So it appears that the answer to the hard questions is always:
"You can't prove it didn't, so it did! Nyar nyar nee nyar nyar!"
The main reason I read, and occasionally post, on these forums is because i can get real inspiration from the things written here. Hubs, by their very nature, are usually well thought out and carefully written. The forum however is raw. Emotion and strong conviction is displayed here.
I never thought that this thread would go on for as long as it has and I should mention I have 3 Hubs that I'm working on because of intersting subjects raised here.
Perhaps I should make two points; The first being that though I am not a Christian I am hardly an atheist. If anyone is interested I wrote a very personal Hub titled "My Gods" it should explain where I'm coming from.
The other point; About 8 months ago I wrote a Hub called "The Christian religion" Where I stated some of the problems I have with Christian spiritual views. I received two comments from devout Christians, both of whom I hold in the highest regard as writers and as people, but they disagreed with each other on at least one of the points I raised. They can't both be right, but they are both inspired by the same bible and the same faith. I find this peculiar in people with a literal interpretation of the Bible.
One last point I feel I must make. I am prepared to discuss and debate any subject. Those who strongly disagree with me I am more than glad to talk to. I believe there is something to be learned from even the most relentless criticism. However I have nothing to say to, and I will completely ignore any contribution by Phoenixv. That individual called me a liar. I do not associate, online or offline with such people.
The cockroach said to the dung beetle:
Cockroach: You are gross why do you lay your eggs on food?
Point : If you are both feeding on fallacies, you are no better than the other.
hmmm.. that's a hard question.
As a Christian, I'm not sure if I should avoid it.
getitrite said ...I'm left with the understanding that either Jesus was a liar, or that the author of Deuteronomy was a liar.
folks are interpreting scripture wrong.
I doubt it.
Those verses do not require interpretting. They are in plain English.
I have been saying the same thing that you suggested here..
I'm left with the understanding that either Jesus was a liar, or that the author of Deuteronomy was a liar.
or he did fulfill that exactly as he said that he would..
BUT as the religious people of the day did not recognize the fact that the Messiah had come because he did not come in the way that he was expected to come.
We do not recognize it to have occured because it did not happen the way in which we interpret it to supposed to have happen ?????
Again, it is in plain English. You are beginning to lose me, Jerami. What am I missing, my cerebral cortex?
According to what I read in Mark 13-30, that generation that Jesus was speaking to was supposed to be the last, but as you can see, it has been a few millenia and the earth and its people are still here--and Christ has not returned.
So according to Deut 18-22, Jesus fits the definition of a false prophet, which we had been warned about by God's own inspired words, the Bible.
It is all in the misinterpretation of scripture.
In Matthew 23 It is written that Jesus told the Pharasees that all the blood of the martered prophets were going to come down upon their generation. and about a dozen woe upon yous and you den of snakes you sons of Satan etc. etc.
And a couple of the desciples ask Jesus, when was this going to happen?
So Jesus answered Peter, James, John and andrew in a PRIVATE converstaion,
Remember that he was alone with these four when he said
V6 YOU shall hear of wars....
7 nation shall rise against nation...
9 then shall they deliver you up to be aflicted...
15 When YOU shall see the abomination...
These chapters are not talking about the end of life on earth!!
These chapters are talking about the END of DAYS for that Hebrew Nation.
As you said these are simplely stated comments.
The 144000 Hebrews; 120000 of each of the 12 tribes will be caught up in the twinkling of an eye....
That happened at the same time that the entire population was being either killed and burried along the side of the road
or deported out of Israel and scattered through out the rest of the Roman Empire. (135 - 138 AD)
But the church for the past 1900 years, has been teaching that this event is going to happen at some time in the future
Making it almost imposible for Christians to consider the fact that the second coming of Christ has already come exactly as he said that he would.
How do you know when someone has the correct interpretation, Jerami? Why would someone make the bible so hard to understand or interpret correctly? To make it always right, Of course.
If something in the book doesn't make sense it's always because of wrong interpretation or because it's not meant to be taken literally. A no-lose situation which enables adherents to blindly follow whoever is the particular interpreter at the time.
Why would a supreme being make HIS words so confusing if he really wanted his children to believe them?
We "KEEP" forgetting who put the New testament together.
There were too many Believers at the get together at Niciea in 326 to totally rebuild a religion from nothing.
The false religion had to include much that they would rather have left out.
If this is the beast that is seen in Rev. 13 it would want to confuse these scripture as much as possible.
They are the ones that first began the tradition of interpreting scripture just any old way that you wanted to until you started interpreting them correctly.
Then you better look out. or run and hide or die.
Anyone at all who had the least bit of connection to either the Old or New Testament had their own agendas. As does anyone who believes a word contained in them.
And it makes no difference who compiles hearsay scripture. It is still hearsay.
As I have said before... i'm not trying to convert any one that doesn't want to believe in God.
I don't believe in the same God that the Church teaches.
I do believe in A God. I don't know what he/it looks like or what he/it thinks. I get a clue from scripture.
My first objective is to understand what is written in the bible,
and try to understand why Christians who say that they believe that the bible is the inspired word of God do not believe what it says.
Why do they have to interpret what it says to conform to what they want to believe.
If a lawyer reads a simply written contract and tells you what it says ? Is what he says just an interpretation?
Can everybody interpret the words written in that contract to mean whatever their heart tells them that it says?
100 people might interpret that contract as if it has 100 diffrent meanings and the judge is goina say that they are a 100 BS interpretations.
The judge is not going to call the lawyers analitical deduction an interpretation.
Forget about trying to prove the existence of God but analize what is written and you will discover that prophesy does not say what the churches have been teaching.
And after you have done that the rest of scripture will apear to have changed colors so-to-speak.
No thanks Jerami. I don't feel impelled to seek truth in an old book written by ignorant humans. I had rather see life as it really is. I see it as so wonderful that I need no ancient writings to appreciate our existence. That is enough for me!
I am happy for you. No kidding.
I realy wasn't expecting for you to get very wrapped up in it.
I like getting wrapped up in puzzles.
It took me about 10 years to do what I was suggesting for you to do.
I guess I had nothing better to do.
Any way if ya ever have a hard question as the OP describes it,
Let me know and I'll tell ya what I think cause I aint askeard a no stinking question.
I been checking out a couple of your hubs about Travel trailers I have one that I am going to be working on as soon as I get the inclination.
The reason Christians won't give answers to some hard questions is that it is impossible to please God without faith. We must have faith which eliminates hard and rigid logic. God has infinite knowledge, and if you think that you are your god, you are no match for God.
Well it is midnight.
That pain pill I took a while ago for my acking back is kicking is and I gotta paint a house tomorrow ...so... good night yaul.
In all the time I have been on these forums I have yet to see even one logical religious reply based on evidence.
Not even ONE ?? Have ya ever had 1/2 , or a 1/4 ?
Never , never, never ???
Maybe ya should start off with some easy questions and work your way progressively more difficult and then ya might get JUST one ???
Okay! Since Jesus supposedly healed people, and even brought one person back to life, how do we know he actually suffered on the cross? Couldn't he have used his powers to numb the pain and heal his own wounds?
And, what kind of sacrifice is it when you don't actually lose anything? God gave his only begotten son, but not really because he simply brought him back to life. How is this a tough sacrifice?
Very good question. I am no expert. I can only honestly say what I think what might be an answer.
It is written that God is everything and every where. He would never loose anything. He could put something over there or over hear.
Life can be put in a physical body, or it can be put comeplace else. God would never loose anything if he is everything.
I can compare it to ... All the toys are mine. My cousin comes over to my house to play. I give him my favorite toy to play with it. He tore it up, disrespected my gift of allowing him to play with it, He totally destroyed it before he went home.
Imagine me forgiving him and then I proceed to pick up the toy and put it back together and fix it, Yea.. I fixed it
Since I fixed it, did my cousin still disrespect my gift of letting him play with it.
Was it really broken?
Did the toy really suffer?
Did Jesus really suffer?
If God knew that he was going to be able to fix it, they probably did really tear him up.
If any of this story has any truth at all, that part of the story is probably totally true.
As far as the question goes as to whether god gave his only begotten son (But he didn't loose anything) and he suffered or not I don't know except for what is written.
Metaphore.... Your wife gave herself to you, yet she still has herself? If she really suffers or not? She and you would know better than anybody.
The hardest question I know of which none of the three big religions can handle very well is what to be about overpopulation and the dwindling of natural resources? The three major religions came into being at the times in world history when there were a great deal less people living on our planet and life was short. Today life is not short. Many people living in the West or in countries connected with the West will live to over 80 years of age. In less developed countries maybe they will live to 60 or 70. This is a big leap from Medieval times in Europe when you were lucky to get past 30. Also the rate of child deaths has dramatically gone down even over the last 60 years.
The upshot of all this is that we are not living in the times in which the old or the new testament were written. Go forth and multiply too much like rabbits and there are real problems to face. So what is to be done about overpopulation and the dwindling of natural resources? Tough question for anyone associated with the big three to answer. Real tough.
I can answer that one! If each of the religions will just kill all of the infidels (the guys in the other religions) the overpopulation problem will cease to exist! I think the gods themselves suggested this themselves in their novels.
Thanks for the suggestion Randy but it wouldn't work. Using modern weapons the land would get so wrecked that the benefits of the killing simply wouldn't balance out to a profit. In the past war didn't do that much damage to the land so it was a reasonably good way of thinning out the population. During the Vietnam war agent orange was used and in Vietnam today the land is still recovering from the affects. Mind you if both sides of the conflict used nerve gas and other weapons that either only damaged people or did minimal damage to other creatures and minimal damage to the land I suppose that would be okay. Definitely no atomics.
A precisely made virus would do the trick, Ron!
seems like about twenty years ago there was a big deal made about something called a nutron bomb. What ever happened with that?
We still have it I suppose, but it would kill all of the animals too! Killing infidels and heathens is one thing, but not the animals too!
I figured you meant the neutron bomb! If there is a "nutron" bomb which only kills "nuts and morons" I am all for it. Take out all of the religious folk and we'd have plenty of room for everyone else. LOL!
You MIGHT be right It MIGHT be neutron.
Betweem my back acking and a coupla Oxicodone I think it might be nutron. But you could be right???
After a couple of Oxicodone, it could be anything, Jerami! HA!
I think the nutron bomb comes straight out of 1970s episodes of Doctor Who.
A precisely made virus might do the trick but these things can mutate so you can't really say what you'd end up with on your hands.
It would be good if everyone could take family planning seriously and at least stop the population increase. No violence. No deaths. Just seeing the problem and being real about it instead of greedy.
I agree, Ron! But people are living longer so what do we do? Hopefully, before we get too crowded we will have solved the space travel problems and can have many new options. A futuristic "Noah's Ark" so to speak. Or "going to heaven" if you like!
Why does any assume there is always an answer to a hard question?
I will give an answer to any question for 25 cents each
correct answers $5.oo to $25.oo
And people who speak and write with forked tongues. And HOW! Ugggh!
There are not always viable answers to hard questions especially when responsibility for the solution might cost but sitting on your hands instead might cost even more.
I do not believe that there are any hard questions.
Some questions are hard to answer.
Some questions are imposible to answer unless we can admit to ourselves that something just ain't right.
Like when the answers are injected with magic an mystery and the laws of physics are thrown out the window?
The question of origin is a tough one for anyone to answer. The answers for how the Earth became so special may rest with Venus who at one time was the Earth's twin. The answers to why these two worlds are now so far apart in looks and temperament might help explain what is needed in order to create a planet like Earth and to keep such a planet viable.
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