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suffering, where is God?

  1. profile image54
    haj3396posted 7 years ago

    If God is who he is why are there so much suffering?

    1. ceciliabeltran profile image75
      ceciliabeltranposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      If it is indeed a glass of water, then why does it empty?

    2. Dave Barnett profile image55
      Dave Barnettposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      The sufferring is MAN'S doing. HELLLO! You can't deny this, you can't shift blame. This is what free will brings. Now EAT IT!

      1. Beelzedad profile image57
        Beelzedadposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        That would then be an error on the part of your god for offering free will.

        1. Dave Barnett profile image55
          Dave Barnettposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          You have free will because of " my God"? tell him he's FIRED!

      2. profile image57
        stoneyyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        HELLO!  There is no 'free will.'  Its all part of that 'loving' Divine Plan[tm] people like you bleat about when it suits your purposes.  You EAT IT, oh obnoxious one.

        1. Dave Barnett profile image55
          Dave Barnettposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          May a thousand termites nest in your nose! He's "my God" so I'll do as I please!

          1. profile image57
            stoneyyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            Ouch.  Forgot about that aspect of things.  Now my nodez iz ull stpped op.....

    3. getitrite profile image80
      getitriteposted 7 years agoin reply to this



      I guess that God, then, is not who you think He is.

      Imaginary beings have nothing to do with the human condition.
      Suffering is just part of the human condition.

      God won't and can't do anything about it, because, it appears that, by overwhelming evidence, God is not real.

    4. profile image57
      stoneyyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Divine Plan and he's masturbating to it as its the only way he can get off.

    5. skyfire profile image74
      skyfireposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      God is not servant of his own creations. Why should he waste time guiding his creations ? He can always create another if one dies. Why should he love you ? Not loving you gives him any punishment by some system?

      If God created mankind and this universe then that entity is f* n busy man,it is doing experiments with universe which is expanding.

      Oh wait, big part here is that i assumed "god exists".

    6. Liansu22 profile image58
      Liansu22posted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Stoneyy  you know God love you that why he sent his only son to die for you and me,no one will give the only son to be kill. but one thing I know he is real I know that because I was in your shoe before and ask that well is God and he show me who he was. I lose my son and lose my job never have money to lay my son to rest and God came throug for me people that I never knew help me. and my husband just lose his job we done have anything I have a parttime job with five kids but for some reason the lord alway give us what we want. please done give up keep praying one day when you give it to he, he will do it just let he have it.the lord will not share his glory with no man.

      1. skyfire profile image74
        skyfireposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        Just curious, why god sent his son to die for us ? I mean if he's god he can handle everything without scratch to his son or anyone on this planet right ? or god can't lift the stone he created ? or not willing to because of free-will ?

        1. Dave Barnett profile image55
          Dave Barnettposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          The point wasn't crucifixion, the point was resurrection

          1. skyfire profile image74
            skyfireposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            I don't care about what point you made there or bible made. What i'm after is that there is simple way to look at things like powerful-creator who can undo things yet there he let scratch on his own son and on his creations. Either mankind is spreading lie about creator or creator never existed to begin with or creator is in don't care mode.

            1. profile image57
              stoneyyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              A 'Creator' deity fails miserably.

      2. getitrite profile image80
        getitriteposted 7 years agoin reply to this



        Not to be cold, or anything, but why did God allow my brother to die?  That's not what I WANTED.  Explain please.

        1. profile image57
          stoneyyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          Because 'God' wanted to show how much of a maniacal despot 'He' is.

        2. profile image57
          stoneyyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          getitrite

          [Not to be cold, or anything, but why did God allow my brother to die? ]

          Because He's a right B'stard.

      3. profile image57
        stoneyyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        And Santa Claus really really does deliver toys to all the good girls and boys.

        No, you don't know God is real.  You believe God is real.  There's a hefty difference.

        From the Honeymooners:

        Ralph:  And just *who* took you to the hospital after you got hit with that baseball bat?

        Norton:  You did, Ralph.  *After* you hit me with it!

        1 Thessalonians 5:18 (King James Version)

        18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

  2. Cagsil profile image60
    Cagsilposted 7 years ago

    Two reasons to answer your question in general....

    (a) There is no god.
    (b) Too many selfish people in the world and considering 4 billion of them are religious....that should tell you something.

    1. profile image54
      haj3396posted 7 years agoin reply to this

      I agree with you there is no god, but there is a God. what you are really saying is that your god do not exist . It is unbelievable that you can believe in man but, not God. You do believe in your self.

      1. Beelzedad profile image57
        Beelzedadposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        There are many types of men within our species; Nordic, Arab, Oriental, etc. and we can meet and greet with them all.

        There are also many types of gods; Christian, Jewish, Islamic, etc. but have yet to see, hear, touch, smell... any of them.

        So, it's very easy to believe in men and not gods. smile

        1. profile image54
          haj3396posted 7 years agoin reply to this

          Christian, Jewish, Islamic, have the same God, where the change come in is who is Jesus Christ.

          1. Dave Barnett profile image55
            Dave Barnettposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            Jesus is a man who was sent among us to demonstrate the humanity of God. He shows that god is a part of all of us, not just a chosen few, that god lives within us as divine creations.

            1. Cagsil profile image60
              Cagsilposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              Well, I guess that solves that. lol

              It might be nice if you really understood Jesus and his work. lol

              WOW! roll

            2. profile image57
              stoneyyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              'God' is not human.  Secondly, you've just indicated 'God' is a parasite.

          2. Beelzedad profile image57
            Beelzedadposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            Really? The same Abrahamic god? Funny that the messages delivered to each religion by this same god diametrically oppose one another. wink

            1. Dave Barnett profile image55
              Dave Barnettposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              not really, last I checked the hebrew bible was a part of the christian bible. Can't really say about the Koran, but the 72 virgins intrigue me. Just wonderin' what day 73 in paradise is like. Fresh outta virgins, and that's at the outside. You know some people shouldn't take themselves so seriously. I REALLY like baiting them. They really don't know what I believe. It makes me Laugh.

              1. profile image57
                stoneyyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                Dave Barnett posted

                [not really, last I checked the hebrew bible was a part of the christian bible. Can't really say about the Koran, but the 72 virgins intrigue me.]

                I understand the virgins thing is a translation error.  Supposedly, the correct translation is 'white raisins.'

        2. Dave Barnett profile image55
          Dave Barnettposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          Most gases that are fatal to human life also fit the description. You can't hear, see, smell, taste, or feel them. Do you think that if you don't believe in them that they can't kill you?

          1. Cagsil profile image60
            Cagsilposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            Interesting how you compare something that has a physical make up of some form to a non-existent god. lol

            1. Dave Barnett profile image55
              Dave Barnettposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              Who may/may not have a form. Where in fantasy land did you acquire your Phd ?

          2. getitrite profile image80
            getitriteposted 7 years agoin reply to this



            True,  but these gases can be detected with instruments.  So we know they exist. 

            Your God has the same qualities of non-existent objects.
            He is invisible, and cannot be detected.

            1. Dave Barnett profile image55
              Dave Barnettposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              The instruments may already exist, maybe we just are looking in the wrong place. But as to gases. The gas in your home is colorless and odorless. Scent is added so as to be able to be detected by you. CO1 and CO2 are both colorless and odorless. The inability to detect the presence or the mark of God by anyone is their problem, not mine, so how is it that my belief or lack of it is your prob. As abnoxious as a christian, you may as well convert.

              1. Beelzedad profile image57
                Beelzedadposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                When ideals like creationism are taught in schools and homosexuals are not allowed to have the right to marry, it becomes our problem, especially when your god is not detectable in any way shape or form to support those ideals. We can then conclude your beliefs in that god are equivalent to beliefs in unicorns and fairies and dismiss creationism and homophobia thusly. smile

          3. Beelzedad profile image57
            Beelzedadposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            Yes, you can smell taste an feel many gases, Dave. You can even hear them when they are released from canisters. You can see their properties under microscopes.

            When you attempt to compare real life scenarios to your gods, you need to provide the equivalent in comparison, not something that can easily be refuted with simple logic, Dave. smile

            1. Dave Barnett profile image55
              Dave Barnettposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              Try this for logic. There are lifeforms which live inside of you, without which you would surely die,  so what is so outlandish as to propose that this is any different on a universal level. Our SETI search for life has produced zip. But, life can exist on a level that could be unrecognizable to us, possibly, invisible to us, and some of the current scientific study has been given to these lines of thought, that Carbon may not be the only basis for life, a term which we have not fully defined. We live in a universe composed mainly of a material that we cannot identify. Your stand ignores all of this because it threatens your myopic universal knowledge. Now have I said anything about Fairies or avenging angels. You guys are the Joke.

              1. Beelzedad profile image57
                Beelzedadposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                Again, very simple logic, Dave. We can see the "lifeforms" inside of us, we can't see your god. As well, the universe is not a living organism, your example makes no sense in context.



                Carbon is defined. There is no such scientific study that I'm aware in which scientists are studying "invisible" life. What are those studies exactly, Dave?



                That material has an effect that can be measured, unlike your god.



                Or, it's probably ignored because they are just empty claims.



                No, but it was still equally nonsensical.



                Thanks Dave, I really respect your beliefs, too. smile

              2. profile image57
                stoneyyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                Dave Barnett posted ;
                Try this for logic.


                There's zero logic where there's God.

      2. Cagsil profile image60
        Cagsilposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        WOW! Talk about foolish words.  lol lol Ignorance must be quite a wonderful feeling. hmm

      3. camlo profile image88
        camloposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        What pills do you take?

      4. profile image57
        stoneyyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        haj3396posted 2 hours agoin reply to this

        I agree with you there is no god, but there is a God. what you are really saying is that your god do not exist . It is unbelievable that you can believe in man but, not God. You do believe in your self."

        Individuals can be demonstrated to exist-no belief required.  It's unbelievable that you believe in invisible universe spanning space pixies.

        Hmmmm....Space Ghost!

        1. Dave Barnett profile image55
          Dave Barnettposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          Exactly, many people thought the world to be flat. No one could believe that such a thing as a Kodiak bear could exist. Stars and planets and Galaxies? Ridiculous. No reputable scientist would suggest that we are even close to knowing all that is knowable. Evidently you fellows didn't get the memo.

          1. Beelzedad profile image57
            Beelzedadposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            No reputable scientist would accept the myths and superstitions of the Bronze Age as anything close to 'knowable.' smile

            1. Dave Barnett profile image55
              Dave Barnettposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              nor would I. Don't accept the old or new testaments either. I do know this, that the lack of a viable way of looking at our ecosystem cannot be found without appreciation of what it really is, and the only way to appreciate it is on a spiritual level, because w/o that, we end up with what we've got, and this cannot last, and is on the verge of total collapse. Man won't get us out of this mess, man helped accelerate this, besides, it has progressed too far. We are on the River of No Return, and there are no messiahs here. You fail to understand what I am saying in most of my comments. People have a right to believe what they wish. What, exactly do you believe? We already know what you don't believe.

              1. Beelzedad profile image57
                Beelzedadposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                Your god made this world and told you that you had complete dominion over it. I think we can see where to place the blame for its collapse.



                Your gods have had their opportunity to fix things for thousands of years and have failed to do so, It is now mans turn to change things around and help humanity rather than just having dominion over it.



                Even when those beliefs are leading us down the path of destruction?



                I believe an education is in order for those who profess absolute knowledge, who can't distinguish real world scenarios from their imaginary gods. smile

                1. Dave Barnett profile image55
                  Dave Barnettposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  Exactly which gods are mine, can't tell 'em apart. You seem to know my gods pretty well. Where were they last night?

                  1. profile image57
                    stoneyyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                    Buggering sheep.


                    I got the info straight from the 'Moon Goddess.'

          2. getitrite profile image80
            getitriteposted 7 years agoin reply to this



            Dave, if you were suggesting or proposing that there are things for which we have no explanations, then I would certainly respect your assertions, but to imply that your line of reasoning support the ridiculous beliefs of any religion is beyond ignorant.

            1. Jim Hunter profile image60
              Jim Hunterposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              "but to imply that your line of reasoning support the ridiculous beliefs of any religion is beyond ignorant."

              Ignorant of what?

              There are things beyond our level of comprehension occurring even as I type.

              If that is the ignorance that you speak of I agree.

              1. getitrite profile image80
                getitriteposted 7 years agoin reply to this



                You are so clever with your superior reasoning that I think I will have no choice but to get on my knees and worship the imaginary Sky Daddy. lol lol

                1. Jim Hunter profile image60
                  Jim Hunterposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  You can worship a bag of potato chips for all I care.

                  I wouldn't consider it "superior reasoning" to know that we don't know everything.

                  I would consider it common sense.

                  1. getitrite profile image80
                    getitriteposted 7 years agoin reply to this



                    Then you are arguing, just for the sake of arguing, because you, clearly, cannot defend absurd religious beliefs with the fact that we do not know everything.

              2. Dave Barnett profile image55
                Dave Barnettposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                Has anyone seen my gods, I seem to have misplaced the little buggers. Beelezldad saw them, but he's not talkin'.

            2. Dave Barnett profile image55
              Dave Barnettposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              actually, I'm ahead of that point. Most of what is discoverable has not yet even been discovered. We don't know what dark matter is, so no one can say that it isn't "inner stomach lining" with string theory and membrane theory, all bets are off. We don't even have a complete understanding of exactly what constitutes life. It's a rule-out protocol with a a large list of possibilities. I simply will not accept that Cagasil knows all that is knowable. I simply say that we don't know enough to definitively say. Anyone that pretends that we do is as deluded as a lot of the religionists.

            3. Dave Barnett profile image55
              Dave Barnettposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              Besides, I support the dismantlement of the religious establishment. So attaching things like that to me is quite ignorant. I take it you don't know how to debate, so you attack, ridicule and ignore those points which remove power from your own arguments. That's not logic.

              1. getitrite profile image80
                getitriteposted 7 years agoin reply to this



                Then I take it that you need remedial reading, because, if you noticed, I used the word 'if'

                You are the one attaching this to yourself, because you are in a defensive posture. 

                Go back and read my post, if you don't believe me.

          3. profile image57
            stoneyyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            God falsifies himself.  Sorry you missed the 'clue-by-four.'

        2. Liansu22 profile image58
          Liansu22posted 7 years agoin reply to this

          The is a God only if you give what you have to he to take care of thing will be better please don't do this.go and read the book of (Isaiah 45;1)say thus saith the lord to his anointed,to cyrus,whose right hand i have holden, to subdue nation before him; and I will loose the lion of king ,to open before him the two leaved gate,and the gate shall not be shut.

          1. profile image57
            stoneyyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            There is a God and He is Krishna.  Read the Holy Tome and be enlightened.

            People posting drivel from their book as if it has any meaning to those outside it.

      5. Dave Barnett profile image55
        Dave Barnettposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        Yeah, he believes in himself because he can touch and smell himself, and if he can, chances are others can too.

        1. profile image57
          stoneyyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          Personal hygiene wasn't big back then.

      6. profile image57
        stoneyyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        There is no God.

  3. Beth100 profile image78
    Beth100posted 7 years ago

    God provides the answers, but you have to take action.

    1. Cagsil profile image60
      Cagsilposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      lol lol

    2. profile image54
      haj3396posted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Than you it's great to hear Joy and peace

    3. profile image57
      stoneyyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Peals of laughter.

      The Tooth Fairy provides the answers, but you have to take action.

      Santa Claus provides the answers, but you have to take action.

      Ra provides the answers, but you have to take action.

      Tiamat the Dragon provides the answers, but you have to take action.


      Odin All-Father provides the answers, but you have to take action.

      The Easter Bunny provides the answers, but you have to take action.

      Please note all these 'entities' claims, and myriad others not mentioned, have the same validity as yours.

      It really would be nice if Christians would think before posting.

      1. Dave Barnett profile image55
        Dave Barnettposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        man provides all the answers. get out that flippin' crystal ball. Mom! God took my crystal ball, make him give it back!

        1. profile image57
          stoneyyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          Finders keepers losers weapers?

    4. profile image57
      stoneyyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      .......................

  4. Tom Cornett profile image79
    Tom Cornettposted 7 years ago

    Suffering....where is mankind?

    1. profile image54
      haj3396posted 7 years agoin reply to this

      causing the suffering

      1. Tom Cornett profile image79
        Tom Cornettposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        Then it must be up to mankind to cease.

        1. Dave Barnett profile image55
          Dave Barnettposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          That's right. God helps those who help themselves. If we can't save ourselves, then we aren't worth saving. Do you really think he wants to spend eternity with all the whiners?

          1. Cagsil profile image60
            Cagsilposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            Now, you're making a huge assumption that there really is a god. How nice of you. lol

            1. Dave Barnett profile image55
              Dave Barnettposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              and you that there is none. Why do you think these arguments have been going on for literally thousands of years. I can argue both sides, but your assumptions are as defensible as those from believers. That's the point I've been trying to make, but you are ignoring anything that weakens your points, as though nothing has been said.

              1. Cagsil profile image60
                Cagsilposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                Yes, idiots continue the argument going, just like you are doing. And, your argument is just a stupid as the next.
                I have no assumptions about the FACT that there is no god. You fail understand my point of view, which is nothing new, because all you like to do is argue to begin with.
                First off, ignorance isn't justified to what is knowable. Secondly, your foolish argument fails in reality of life. And, the simple fact that you do not pay close enough attention is a prime example of chosen ignorance at work.

                Understand: Life does not require a god. Living Life does not require a god.

                Use your pathetic argument to defend that. And the only thing you will do is spew garbage.

  5. tony0724 profile image60
    tony0724posted 7 years ago

    As the world becomes more secular and wants God to be removed from public life , he is merely granting them their wish. Now we are seeing the results.

    1. Dave Barnett profile image55
      Dave Barnettposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      These things were fortold to the world, and now you are surprised/dismayed that these things are happening

      1. tony0724 profile image60
        tony0724posted 7 years agoin reply to this

        Nope. I am not surprised at all. A little sad at the state of the human condition though

        1. Beth100 profile image78
          Beth100posted 7 years agoin reply to this

          Hey Tony.  Don't be sad.  We all have a choice.  Here's a little smile for you:

          There was a ship that was caught in the  middle of a storm on the ocean.  The ship was tossed and turned like it was a toy.  Finally, it capsized and sunk, taking the crew with it, with the exception of the Captain.  He clung on for dear life on a plank of wood, praying and praying that he would not drown.  Slowly, the storm passed and the sun broke through the cloudy sky.  The Captain was tired, but he continued to pray, hanging onto his faith that he will be saved by his God.

          The sun was hot but his faith and belief gave him strength to keep hanging on.  Soon, a small raft floats by with a man on it.  The raft was tattered and water was seeping up through the planks.  The man, who was old and wearing rags, offered the Captain a ride.  The Captain asked him if he knew where he was going.  The man answered "no" as he had no compass, map nor chart.  The Captain thanked him and told him that he would wait.  He would wait until his God sent him a miracle to save him.

          The night came.  The water became cold.  The Captain hung on.  Praying to his God.  Praying for his God to come down and save him.  He prayed for a miracle.  He was exhausted and fell asleep but he clung onto the plank of wood.

          Morning came and he woke to the bright rays of the sun.  He was thirsty, but he dared not drink the salt water.  He prayed more to his God. Praying for his God to come and save him.  He lost track of time as his shadow was hard to see and his eyes were beginning to get tired.  Praying to himself outloud, on the horizon he saw another person in a row boat.  Slowly, every so slowly, the person came closer and closer.  The Captain opened his eyes wide to see clearer when the row boat finally approached.  It was a old man paddling with his hands.  He had no oars.  He had lost these in the storm.  When the Captain asked him if he knew where he was going, the old man replied no.  He had no oars and could only paddle for a short distance per arm before he had to stop.  He admitted he had been drifting a long time before he saw the Captain and decided to paddle over.  He offered his hand to the Captain, thinking that the Captain would jump in.  He was wrong.  The Captain thanked the old man but said that he believed that his God would save him.  He believed his God would send him a miracle.  The old man shook his head and paddled away.

          Night was upon the Captain again.  He prayed and prayed and prayed.  He hung on and when the sun finally broke the darkness, he was barely hanging on.  He thought he was hallucinating but there in front of him was a huge naval ship.  They threw a life saver to him in hopes of saving him.  He looked up and decided not to board.  The naval ship was not flying his country's flag.  He turned his back and began praying to his God again.  He prayed to his God that his God would swoop down and save him.  He hung on to his faith, believing wholeheartedly that his God would bring him a miracle to save him. 

          The sun was high.  The heat was intense.  He was dehydrated.  Exhausted.  Hungry.  He bobbed in and out of consciousness.  Finally, his body gave gave up.  Slowly, he slipped off the plank of wood and floated.  Before long, he swallowed water and drowned to his death.

          His soul went to heaven and as his soul approached the pearly gates of heaven, St. Peter asked him what happened.  The Captain was furious.  He was angry at his God for not sending him a miracle to save his life.  He had faith.  He believed.  And now, he was dead.  What kind of God did he believe in if all his prayers were not answered.

          St. Peter went silent.  He shut the pearly gates and went upstairs.  Not long after, he came back.  He opened the gates and said to the Captain, follow me.  He led the Captain up the stairs.  They climbed and they climbed.  The clouds became thicker and thicker and finally, they stopped.  St. Peter excused himself when God addressed the Captain.

          The Captain in all his fury screamed at his God of how he failed him, his faithful servant and follower.  His God sat silently.  He listened.  He waited.  When the Captain finally spent his anger, he lay on the ground.  Exhausted again.  His God finally spoke.  He said to the Captain:  "I heard your prayers.  I answered your prayers.  I answered not only once, but THREE times!!"

          1. Dave Barnett profile image55
            Dave Barnettposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            nice tale. Sometimes people expect too much, sometimes they expect too little. Sometimes they confuse need for desire, and necessity for luxury. Here is a different story. A man and wife rush down a neighborhood street with their four year old, trying to get to an important appointment, the child trips and skins her knee. The couple proceed, dabbing at the trickle of blood issuing from the abrasion. Half a block down the street, there in the middle of the sidewalk is an unopened bandaid. True story. Sometimes miracles occur in very small packages or amounts.

            1. Beth100 profile image78
              Beth100posted 7 years agoin reply to this

              Miracles happen all around us.  We have to open our eyes and heart to see.  That's the trick.

              1. profile image57
                stoneyyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                Go ahead and open your heart.  You'll bleed out swiftly.

                Braise your imaginary buddy.

    2. profile image57
      stoneyyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Sigh.  According to the Xian superstition anything which occurs is part of the 'Divine Plan.'

  6. Jim Hunter profile image60
    Jim Hunterposted 7 years ago

    "If God is who he is why are there so much suffering?"

    He allowed his own son to suffer, why shouldn't he allow everyone else to?

    1. Dave Barnett profile image55
      Dave Barnettposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Burn, baby burn!

      1. profile image57
        stoneyyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        No pain, no gain.

 
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