what do you have to lose or gain

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Troy C.posted 14 years ago
What do you have to lose or gain by accepting Jesus Christ as your personal savior and living life according to the teachings in the Bible.I feel that by accepting Christ you have nothing to lose that would better your life or the lives of those you come into contact with. On the other hand you have everything to gain,peace,joy,love,patience and caring for others and the world around you. These are but a few, what do you think?
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  alternate poetposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh yes - so much to gain - intolerance, aggression, hatred, . . . I could go on but it is all getting so boring with all these 'join us morons in la la land' threads. Why don't any of these posters contribute to the already ongoing threads where this nonsense is being shown for what it is over and over and over
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Because all we are looking for is a place to discuss OUR concepts and beliefs amongst friends, but nasty bad men keep trying to silence us, so we start new threads and when those 'nasty bad men' follow us there and start trying to silence us again, we start new threads and when those 'nasty bad men' follow us there and start trying to silence us again, we start new threads and when those 'nasty bad men' follow us there and start trying to silence us again, we start new threads and when those 'nasty bad men' follow us there and start trying to silence us again....
  
  ...and so it goes!
  
  But the biggest, most amazing thing is....
  
  ..why do they want to do that?
  
  No wonder they call it 'spreading the gospel'... it's wonderfully achieved by those 'nasty bad men' who follow us, and in doing so God uses them to make even more folk aware of the enemies plans, and they see the wonder of God, and understand why He stated:
  
  Isaiah 44:25
  [I am the Lord] Who frustrates the signs and confounds the omens [upon which the false prophets' forecasts of the future are based] of the [boasting] liars and makes fools of diviners, Who turns the wise backward and makes their knowledge foolishness,
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  alternate poetposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hmmmmmmm ! and you just told me that the signs for the new world order are in the scriptures - hmmmm !
  
  Don't you think you have analysed this elaborately worded piece of philosophy backward - it is the preachers it is talking about - clearly.
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  LeslieAdrienneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  94aguasilver
  
  I love your response....they just don't get it, we cannot be silenced and we don't get our feelings hurt easily either....
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  Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That's right Leslie.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  First off, do you have to live by the interpretation YOU choose to or the actual translation it is to be? You lose your mind if you actually follow the doctrines, which 99% of the believers do not do. You gain, a peace of mind supposedly, because you allow yourself to be selfish without any responsibility.
  Actually, quite the opposite because you negate responsibility and promote selfishness.
  
  I have already gain peace in my life, joy of freedom, love for self and others, patience I've always had and through love for others is what propels my purpose of life. So, no god required.
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  Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I actually consider myself a more tolerant person and more at peace away from the church/God than all the years I spent "seeking God". The only thing that I'm at odds with is my mother preaching at me occasionally "come back to Jesus!" - it's hard coming from a family where God is their whole life
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  Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Baileybear, I am sure your mother loves you very much. No one should pressure anyone to come Jesus. God wants you to choose freely on your own. I hope that you come back to Jesus before it's too late.
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  Shadesbreathposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Before it's too late for what? To not have her SOUL CAST IN THE PIT OF BURNING TORTURE FOR ALL ETERNITY by a loving God?
  
  "Choose of your own free will," it's totally not a pressure thing. We want you to find God on your own. No pressure. If you don't, then, well you burn horribly for eons of miserable suffering and agony, but, no pressure. Take your time and find His love at your leisure. No rush. Just get it done before you die, or else. We love you.
  
  You people have no idea what you sound like to people outside your delusion do you?
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  LeslieAdrienneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Shades,
  We know how we sound because most of us came from a place of unbelief. That is why we can understand the arguments of those who do not believe.
  
  Yet it never ceases to amaze me how angry people get with us for sharing something they don't believe in. Why get iritated with us? Just ignore us.
  
  True, we won't go away, but we will be out of your circle.
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  Shadesbreathposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You are pushy sales people who never go away. You don't even see that this comment is the exact same thing as the one I translated before. It's the same selfish, pushy, condescension in the guise of nice, friendly, innocent lovingness. Let me paraphrase this one like I did the last one so you see what it actually looks like:
  
  We know how we sound because we used to be stupid and unenlightened too. But we're not anymore, so now we can smile down on you who are still stupid and unenlightened and patronize the crap out of you while we nod patiently and wait for you to pull your head out of your spiritual as@.
  
  It never ceases to amaze me how people get offended when we endlessly go on about how you should convert to our religion and how we respond to your begging us to 'PLEASE JUST STFU and GO AWAY' with saccharine smiles and looks of faux-shock that pretend we have no idea in our pious innocence why you are so unbelievably annoyed.
  
  True we will persist endlessly to hound you with threats of eternal damnation, torture and fire in the same breath we talk about a loving God, but you can always be outside our circle and pretend we aren't building on every street corner and knocking on your door and leaving pamphlets in your garden and making big stinking political noise in our desire to start wars and deny people rights in the world you have to share with us. Just ignore us.
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  LeslieAdrienneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Wow.....
  
  If that's what you think I mean, than so be it. We love you in your most bitter moments. Who cares if you love us back? We want you to know that Jesus loves you regardless of what you say, what you choose and what you feel.
  
  Cussin' me out is moot. You can't upset me because God's love is really real and the angrier you feel, the more God flows His love your way.
  
  We just want you to know what we know. And so, we will continue to talk about salvation, deliverance, the Love of God, heaven, hell and our freewill choices.
  
  As I've said, we will not go away:)
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  In other words, you will never show respect for anyone, ever, and will never stop selfishly promoting your beliefs.
  
  Notice that this has nothing to do with your gods, your religion or what other people want, and has everything to do with what you want?
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  h.a.borcichposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  This could also be said of you.
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Try putting some thought into your responses.
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  h.a.borcichposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  "In other words, you will never show respect for anyone, ever, and will never stop selfishly promoting your beliefs."
  
  Your own words applied to you, and either you don't see that you have become what you claim to dispise...or you don't care. Either way, you prove it true. I merely pointed it out
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Good mornin h.a.borcich.
  
  Some people just do't get it. When we HATE something we have to be very careful as to how we react to it or we become overwhelmed by it.
  And that happens slowly enough that we don't notice it happening. Or we (think) that we justify our behavior with excuses. Either way, it is a bad thing when it happens.
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Again, you should really put some thought into your responses. Where do you see that I am pushing my beliefs onto others? What beliefs would those be, exactly? Or, are you just trying to pick a fight, again?
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  h.a.borcichposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  A basic observation has been pointed out to you. Had I spoke to you in the fashion you are dishing it out - then I would be picking a fight. I am just trying to help you see yourself accurately.
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No, you are doing no such thing. If you were making an observation, you would point out exactly what beliefs exactly I'm pushing on others. All you offered was a kindergarten retort.
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  Shadesbreathposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Clearly from what you follow with, it's not what you think it means. In fact, from your response, it's obvious you didn't bother to figure out what it means and, quite the opposite, you didn't read it closely at all. You glanced, said, "Oops, he's not converted yet," and are now marching onward Christian soldier.
  
  For one, how patronizing can you possibly be? This is exactly what I'm talking about. But you just absolutely refuse with a wholebodied determination of titanic proportions to see it. You innocently act so surprised that people are irritated (you call it "bitter") when people respond to you thus. I'll try to say this really, really plainly: I know you think you are being nice, but saying stuff like that is CONDESCENDING. "Who cares if you love us back." My God. Just look at that line for one second and think about it. You just said you don't give a crap what I think or feel. How in the name of Jesus do you expect anyone to not be irritated by someone who comes right out and says they don't give a crap how we feel? The fact that you can't see that, no matter how clearly I tried in the last two attempts to show you how you sound to others, is stupefying to me. Except that I realize you don't care how you come across because, you already have the Truth and we don't, so you can be condescending and patronizing and it doesn't matter. "Who cares." I get it. (sigh)
  
  The difference between you and Jesus in this is that Jesus does not condescend and patronize the crap out of people in the name of love and enlightenment. Not to mention, Jesus doesn't burn Qurans or start wars, crusades, inquistions or anything else that not only DON'T improve my world, they make it much worse.
  
  I haven't cussed you out.
  My point is not and never has been to upset you. Your accusation that I have "cussed you out" and that I am "bitter" show how much all this is about you. You don't care how I or anyone else feels, you are passive agressive in the way you try to sell your beliefs, and you think that by speaking softly you can claim the higher moral ground. Snakes speak softly, it's called a hiss, that doesn't mean they can't kill you just as dead as a roaring lion can.
  
  Yes, this is exactly how the most annoying salesmen are. "We just want you to know we have the best deal in town. OUr product is awesome and will save you time and money. I will not go away until you buy no matter how politely you ask the first five thousand times."
  
  And, just like a salesman, while the benefits of the product are supposed to be for my good, the salesman is really just looking out for his own wellbeing. YOu think you get eternal salvation or even just get to feel like you did a good deed if you badger people into converting. But then, you aleady admitted earlier that you don't care what I want or think. And, well, like I have been trying to show you over and over and over, THAT IS CONDESCENDING and it is why people are so annoyed with you people. (Which, I know, you don't care. You are willing to keep being totally inconsiderate and passive aggressive "for my own good" And so the cycle goes on and on, etc. That's why there will always be war and death until religion is finally stamped out.)
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  Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I reakon! I just got 2 private messages, both ranting on about hell is for eternity etc. Of course I got the blame for leaving christianity - did I try another church? Obviously god was testing me when I was sick (incidently, I worked out the solution to my health problems without god's help - which further reinforced I didn't need to continue talking to someone that wasn't there)
  How is being so pushy a demonstration of love? I am sorry to all the people that I did this to when I was a xtian
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  Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Shadesbreath, My message never stated that choosing your freewill is pressure. You seem to be confused. Let me help you to understand. Our loving God not choose for anyone to burn in hell, but if you continue to remain rebellious, and refuse to serve God, you are choosing to burn in hell on your own. You can't blame God for your own actions. Let's see how you cleverly distort, and manipulate my words. I am full aware of your decietful behavior in this forum.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Are you normally this way or do you act like this on purpose? The BIBLE says "Choose of your own free will" or are you dismissing it?
  
  You seem to contradict yourself within your own paragraph of posting. It's sad you don't see it.
  Shades isn't the one confused. YOU are!
  Nice guilt trip you laid here. And at the same time contradict your previous statement about "Choose or Choice". Or do you not know anything about "FREE WILL" that you've apparently have none.
  He is NOT blaming your god for anything, he is ripping apart your foolish nonsense.
  No manipulation needed, you're just rude and mean, like all other religious. No wonder why the world is the way it is...you freaking people have no clue the damage you do.
  Deceitful behavior? You must have a very low level of consciousness, I mean no one can be this ridiculous.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  cagsil and shades- You both don't like because I can see your sneaky schemes, but I can't help that.
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  Shadesbreathposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, me and Cags, perpetrators of the sin of pointing out that the crap you say doesn't make any sense. Me and Cags are bastards because we both think to ourselves, "Woah, WTF? How is a LOVING god allowing ETERNAL TORTURE?"
  
  Yeah. We're real sneaky like that.
  
  Cagsil, I want you to shape up, dude. You are being sneaky. Please stop sneakily making common sense arguments in plain English. Your candor and reason are sneaky and you are confounding Woman of Courage's obfuscating absurdity with your up-front arguments that reveal the ridiculous, convoluted and paradoxical idiocy of her claims regarding the magical being that has doomed us all to hell that don't writhe on the ground worshipping him mindlessly. So just stop, Cags. You are being a bastard!
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I cannot be a bastard. My mother and father were married for 9 years and I was 7 when they divorced.
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  Shadesbreathposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well, you got me on a technicality, but it changes nothing spiritually.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hey Woman Of Courage,
  
  If a bat can see in the dark, why can't you see in broad daylight normal rational thoughts conveyed in words of sanity?
  
  Did you or did you not go to school and learn comprehension? I would like to know what type of person I am dealing with.
  
  I mean common sense dictates you would be schooled in some manner and making claims of some god of some sort having control of people's lives is just conjecture at best. Irrational behavior like what is displayed in the forums, such as NOT reading all of other people's posts and picking out little phrases that you choose to read and not others, is that of 5 year old.
  
  You sit behind your computer, make wild claims of some god, who is supposedly going to punish people if they refuse to believe, is borderline psychosis and not to mention, many people have been institutionalized for less.
  
  So before you response, seriously consider your actions, which includes typing into the keyboard in front of you that will make words come out into a forum post.
  
  The one thing that ticks me off the most is wild claims of the religious folk who claim to follow along Jesus' teachings, yet haven't a damn clue about walking the doctrine they claim to understand. If you actually walked in the doctrine in your life, then it would become painfully obvious that the claims you presently make would be an out-right lie.
  
  I make no apologies for my words, and if you don't like them then too bad. If you cannot stand the heat, then get out of the kitchen, per se.
  
  I've already made it PLAIN AND CLEAR the Doctrine of religion are false, however you refuse to READ THE DAMN WORDS as they are written.
  
  So please, go try walking in the doctrine, JUST ONE WEEK and come back and let me know how you feel.
  
  And, when you come back, I'll know whether or not, you actually did it, because your flippant attitude will be completely altered, and you won't have a pot to piss in.
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  Diane Insideposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  blah, blah, blah,
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Typical response from someone who knows nothing about doctrine. Your attitude alone proves you know nothing about it.
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  Diane Insideposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  haha yeah, thats right. ha ha blah blah blah
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Very intellectual? I'm staggered by your wit.
  
  Just in case you didn't know- wit is the lowest form of consciousness.
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  Shadesbreathposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Huh?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Figured that would get you.
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  Diane Insideposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yep sure did, ha, shut me up good, you are so good, it is staggering, What ever will I do?
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  alternate poetposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You could start by putting up reason and facts and stop blabbering claptrap, or is that trapcrap - whatever.
  
  If you are out to defend your positon then starting a pissing war is pointless and just shows the wekness of both your argument and your intellect.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Your post makes no sense with regards to what I said in the first place. So much for consciously using your brain.
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  Diane Insideposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You guys are just too funny, with everything you write, on these forums, all you do is tell people how intellectually superior you are. And you expect people not take offense.
  
  What I don't see is why do you actually think anyone will take you seriously if all you do is look down your nose at anybody who disagrees with you.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Wasn't claiming to be intellectually superior. That's apparently your take on it. I was just pointing your lack of intelligence in your reply.
  It's not a matter of looking down on people. That is what religious people "READ INTO" the words that are used, instead of actually reading the words as they are meant to be comprehended.
  
  They rather be defensive instead of actually learning.
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  Diane Insideposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  See there you go again, I honestly believe you can't help yourself. Pointing out someones lack of intelligence. Please. Just because they may not respond the way you think they should does not show anything.
  
  However your incesent need to "point out" someones lack of intelligence makes people be defensive.
  
  Wouldn't you be if someone is telling you how much more they know than you. I mean really, telling people this will not make them want to learn anything from you.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Your words are full of hate cagsil, have a great day!
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  LeslieAdrienneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Cags,
  Side note: (I liked the other picture of you-why not reload it?)
  
  You and shades are a little different, you are not as internally angry as shades is, but to both of you I would like to pose this question...
  
  If your life experiences have brought you to your decision to not believe, and our life experiences have brought us to our decision to believe, why would we in our right minds take your experiences and the resulting conclusions over our own?
  
  If we did that, wouldn't that make us truly the mindless idiots that you perceive us to be?
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  Diane Insideposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Good point Leslie, I have thought something similar to that guess I just didn't know how to put that into words.
  
  But that is a really good point!
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  Shadesbreathposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  We're not asking you to take our conclusions as your own. We're asking you to get your conclusions out of our face. Go to your church. Writhe around in ecstasy. Throw snakes at each other. Speak in tongues. Have your ritual cannibalism. Worship a zombie. Preach to each other till you turn blue in the face.
  
  Just don't start wars on my behalf because of it. Don't come to my house and try to sell it to me. Don't collude with fellow worshippers to pass laws that deprive people of freedom. And don't be surprised if Cags and I respond to public forum posts you write about it and comment on how dangerous and ridiculous it is.
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh that's OK then, 'cos I have not started one war during my 59 years here on earth, I don't knock doors (don't even know where you live) I've never colluded to pass any law, and I'm not at all surprised that Cags and you feel it your duty to come barging into all and any Christian topic to try to disrupt masters being discussed.
  
  What's it to you anyway?
  
  Really... you achieve NOTHING and you NEVER WILL stop those who have belief from openly stating it
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, believe it or not, you have NO CLUE whether or not, what we say has any effect. This sort of ignorance(lack of knowledge and wisdom) is one reason.
  
  It may not have an effect on you, however, I would beg to differ even on that, simply because you always step outside the religious teachings you've been taught, half the time you answer or post a response.
  
  The words themselves will have an effect on someone, regardless of what you think. And, when they do, it proves each and every time that you and other supposed Christians are nothing but fakes.
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  Shadesbreathposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  "Barging" in?
  
  This thread begins with a question: What do you have to lose or gain?
  
  1. That question put up in a PUBLIC forum that shows up on MY computer screen.
  
  2. The use of the word you, if you'll hark back to your 2nd grade grammar class, is a 2nd person address. This means that as I read it, the question is actually being asked to me, as I become the "you" in the query.
  
  It's hardly "barging" to respond to a direct question.
  
  I have already stated "what's it to me." I don't like strife, war and injustice perpetrated in the name of religion. That is the larger point. But the specific conversation I have been having with LeslieAdrienne over the last day or two--which you have decided to enter into here now after it is well along, or I suppose you would say "barge into"--was more in keeping with the condescending disposition and rhetoric so frequently used by so many Christians when this conversation comes along. Which it often does because so many Christians are so often trying to sell people on converting, etc, which makes the conversation never end, which gets folks like you upset that folks like me are irritated when the more aggressive and condescending Christians "don't care how I feel" and keep, endlessly pimping their faith at me with benign seeming but rhetorically agressive questions like the one posted in the public forum in which the present dialogue currently resides.
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  Shadesbreathposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Let me help you understand:
  
  1. "Loving God": Loving means well, loving, you know, like kindness and stuff. And God means all powerful being with magic that can create universes and do literally anything he wants. Your god wants people to "serve" him and if they don't he allows them to be tortured for eternity.
  A) Who set this system of torture up?
  B) And couldn't an all powerful god do something about that?
  C) If not, how can he be called "loving" and even "god" rather than "despotic demi-god" or simply "magical bully?"
  
  2. If I "refuse to serve God" I am "choosing to burn in hell.": By that reasoning, I can say, "You will wash my car or I will kick this cat." If you don't wash my car, it is your fault that this cat gets kicked. Don't blame me for your cruelty to animals.
  
  Awesome way to set up a universe. Very loving and omniscient.
  
  Yes, it's the old logic and reason method of deceit.
  
  [edit] And my FIRST post on page 2 is a direct response to the question. If you can't fathom that, well, it just stands as evidence of your willful blindness to the most basic and self-evident details of reality.
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  Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  that doesn't sound like much of a choice -
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  Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I have a christian friend whose mother and MIL died of cancer. The friend has a first class honours degree in accounting. She believes God gave them the cancer so they would convert to God. They managed to convert them before they died. I asked if she thought they would have gone to hell - she said 'yes', and the prospect of that was extremely upsetting to her. I asked if she thought I was going to hell. She said, "I don't know". I'm considered to be a "backslider".
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  Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm sure my mother does love me, but her way of showing it (preaching at me constantly like you have done just now and telling me I was possessed = spiritual abuse) is not a very good way of showing it.
  
  I don't fear hell - I have already been to hell and back suffering depression and a pain disorder, which God's people blamed on me and God had no interest in helping me over.
  
  The most painful thing was letting go of all the indoctrination over the years - the fears tactics etc
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  alternate poetposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  My mother was much the same, she told my wife that our children were a waste of time because we refused to indoctrinate them into the christian nonsense. It took me almost a year to be able to come to terms with the fact that my mother was either mentally ill or a vicious old bitch. I prefer to think of religion as a desease.
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  Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I think my mother is mentally unstable. She believes children inherit curses from their parents. She also thinks her bouts of depression are the devil trying to get her. She says all kinds of things that make no sense.
  
  Then of course, you get people like Andrea Yates who drowned her children. Can't remember if her reason was that God told her to, or the children were possessed by the devil or both
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  LeslieAdrienneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You know Baily and Alternate,
  
  I wish I could effectively apologize for all of the hurt done to others in the name of the Lord....so many of us in our zeal to get others to share our experience don't use wisdom. I am so sorry for your negative experiences.
  
  I have found that most people who have a problem with God have had a bad experience with the people of God.....it really is a mess....
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you for demonstrating that in spades.
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  Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  yep, the people were the main turn-off. then when I investigated further, I didn't see the point in serving a god that did nothing to help me. Furthermore, I don't even like the god in the bible - acting like hilter murdering whole populations for "his people"
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  Only a truly disturbed mind could like the God of the bible.
  Hence, most believers don't actually like this God of the bible, however, they do fear him.
  
  This God is a piece of c--p, and they know it, but the fear causes blindness to reason, therefore you get these ridiculous apologist, who find a way to rationalize insanity.
  
  This is a brazen example of might makes right.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  getitrite, you are very dishonest. How can a believer not like the God of the bible? I love God with all my heart, not out of fear, but out of pure love for the great loving God he is. You have had a bad experience, and has turned your back on him. God has not done nothing wrong to you. Now you are trying to discourage other people to hate God. That's a shame. God is real and you know this, but you choose to rebel and reject God. If you send me any demeaning, cruel messages, I will politely ignore them. Meanwhile I give God the praise and honor throughout my day. Have a nice day!
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You are creating a strawman fallacy. Please understand non believers do not hate God. For us there is no God to hate.
  It would be absurd to hate something that doesn't even exist. This is just a big misunderstanding on your part.
  
  I despise the fact that a book of savagely primitive superstitions get people like you so emotionally charged.
  
  I can't understand how you can keep seeing this fictitious God character as a loving God, after reading all the murderous and torturous activity either done or commanded by this character. Sure there are some good events in the bible, but we can't overlook the other books of the word of this fictitious God. Can we?
  
  I'm very happy that He is NOT real. What a relief! Whew!!!
  I will never go back to slavishly worshipping an imaginary pyschopath...and not even a smart one at that.
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If you really feel that way, why bother us folk, who make up 80% of the worlds populace and are content to follow the God they know and love, and who loves them.
  
  You may have rejected a spiritual life, but seem to get off in poring your constant scorn on those who do.
  
  So be it, I hope that you get free from the clutches of an imaginary devil, before he manifests for real in your life.
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  NONSENSE! I'm simply trying to get you to THINK for yourself.
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I have been thinking for myself for the past 48 years of my (59) years of life, it was by thinking about life that I finally concluded that Christ was who I could trust in.
  
  I was just as glibly inane as the atheist cabal here until 18 years ago, when I came to faith.
  
  Then I realized that although I knew a lot, I understood little.
  
  One day I hope you also realize this for yourself
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  Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I agree Leslie.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Baileybear,I have not preached to you at all in my above message. Preaching is totally different from my reply. I am sorry for the pain you have been through. I pray that God will heal you. God bless you!
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  Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm no longer sick, so I don't need healing
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  Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I accepted Jesus Christ in my life at the age of 18, and I have not regret it. I learned the things of the world is only temporary. When I found Jesus , my life has never been the same. I have nothing to lose to but everything to gain.
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  LeslieAdrienneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Absolutely Woman of Courage,
  
  There is no love or life like the one in Jesus.....
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  qwarkposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus? Who? Expand pls.!
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I respect your viewpoint; but I am sorry to state by believing a mythical Jesus of Bible one gains a little and loses much more.
  
  1. Jesus is not the savior’ that is totally wrong; he could not save himself from a cursed death on the Cross, as per the Bible, so he cannot save others in this world or in the hereafter.
  
  2. It is the Creator-God Allah YHWH who saved Jesus a cursed death on the cross and managed to save Jesus’ life and later Jesus migrated from Judea to Srinagar, Kashmir, India. He who saved Jesus’ life is the savior of Jesus and others; let there be no doubt in this connection.
  
  3. Accepting a human, as urinating god, or son of god is the biggest lost one gets.
  
  4. It would just spoil one’s life; as this Jesus himself never believed in; it was a clever creed of Paul.
  5. Nothing to gain and everything to lose by believing in the Jesus of Bible.
  
  6. One should believe in Jesus of Quran and Mary of Quran; there is no harm in believing what Jesus and Mary of Quran believed and doing good deeds as they both did.
  
  I have expressed what I believe sincerely; others have the right to differ with me; no compulsion.
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  Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  get ready to lose you self-esteem, freedom, sanity, right to think for yourself when you become a christian. I'm an ex-christian, and being a christian did a lot of damage
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  Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  and get ready to gain lack-of-logic, feeling spiritual based on emotions, misplaced guilt and fear, and judgementalism becoming a christian
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  LeslieAdrienneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Again Baily,
  
  I am really sorry about your experience....I can feel the pain you went through...it is on the words that you write...
  
  I know you no longer believe, but I want to pray for your heart to fully heal...
  
  Father, I am asking for forgiveness for those believers who hurt Baily. In their zeal and pride, they damaged your little one. Because we are one body, when she was damaged, we all were damaged. So, Father right now I am asking you to heal her heart, restore her emotionally and give her a deeper understanding of those who hurt her, that she not hold any unforgiveness or strife against them.
  
  We owe her a refreshing of your grace and love. She may not ever believe again, but that doesn't stop you from manifesting your great love for her. Bless her Lord, In Jesus Name....
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  Why are you praying for Bailey, when she has stated that she doesn't believe in your nonsensical religion?
  
  Are you just compelled to be this insulting? WTF?
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Don't you think it would much better and far more practical to pray to your god for a morsel of food to feed the starving? Wouldn't that give you much more satisfaction and help save some lives instead?
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  Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't actually feel hurt anymore..and no, it's not because you prayed.
  When you talk about the heart, you really mean feelings, and feelings originate in the brain, not the heart?
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  waynetposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Live your life the best you can, Don't blur fantasy with reality as you'll end up in the nut house!
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WryLiltposted 14 years ago
I have peace,joy,love,patience and caring for others and the world around me.

Why do I need to believe in an imaginary being to be nice to other people?
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  Troy C.posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  WryLit you are half way there already, congrats
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  ediggityposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You don't need to believe to be nice, but if you have faith in Jesus, you secure your place in his kingdom when you die.
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  alternate poetposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  yes - and never mind all the death and destruction - it is all happening out there somewhere in the dark.
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  ediggityposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So, are you saying if there was no believing in Jesus all death and destruction would cease? What would you blame then when it did not stop?
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Since the death and destruction is ongoing with so many believing in Jesus, we can at the very least give it a try. Who knows, maybe it will stop. If it doesn't, you can go back to believing.
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  Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  that seems to be the reason people believe, it seems - fear of hell
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  Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Baileybear, do you believe in hell?
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  Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  yes, I have already experienced hell when I suffered depression and my mother told me I needed deliverance (exorcism). That attitude towards mental illness persists in church circles. So if there is an eternal hell and a God that sends me there, I don't fear it
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  Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  hell is a figment of the imagination
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Phew, that's a relief, now I can stop answering all those atheists who tell me I'm being abusive when I quote John 3:16-19.
  
  Sure hope you are correct.
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Mighty Momposted 14 years ago
I think that living a life of peace, joy, love, patience and caring for others and the world around us sounds pretty darned great!
But I also believe there are other spiritual paths that lead to that life (Buddhists are pretty pacifistic, for example) other than Christianity. I daresay there are even non-spiritual paths that lead people to live in that manner.
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  Troy C.posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  All true Mighty Mom but what about following Jesus?
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  Troy C.posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  alternate poet let's talk new testament and the teacings of Jesus, I don't think"love thy enemy" is intolerance.
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Mighty Momposted 14 years ago
I'm staring at a picture of Jesus on the cross right now AND wearing a crucifix around my neck. But I don't publicly promote that I am Catholic (do you consider that Christian?).
More to the point, and much more relevant, what saved MY life was not Jesus, but a program that allows me to define and choose my own higher power. It's pretty cool and comes with all the aforementioned positive life attributes with none of those pesky side effects Alternate Poet so accurately describes!
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  Troy C.posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Again let's talk the teachings of Jesus, we are getting off track
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  Troy C.posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thank You ediggity, point well taken. The most important point at that.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So...what "higher power" have you chosen through the "program" you're using?
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  Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Mighty Mom, are you aware the bible says that Jesus is the only true way?
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dirty DDposted 14 years ago
YOU have everything to loose EVERYTHING I was religious before my brain injury. its all for GODS humor though he allowed my soulmate top live long enough to see my brain injury, and almost reconvert me, I playedf the little I believe game fopr her then god killed her after he thought it would be funny to try and kill me, but I am the deevil and that is my saviour he kept me alive after all the shit I have caused ,but killed my very religious soulmate serioussly there is no god worship satan he was powerful enough rto spare me, not god
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  lrohnerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Okee dokee.... Popcorn anyone?
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schoolgirlforrealposted 14 years ago
There is alot to gain
but unbelievers will never know
Because it doesn't happen until you accept Jesus

just like you can't enjoy a gift until you open it

or you can't kiss your boyfriend who's lost in the woods until you find him

It's the inevitable game of nonbelievers
to twist and play cause they get a kick out of it!
It makes them darn well happy ,doesn't it to piss people off
so they keep posting in the forums cause they can't help themselves LOL

But truthfully, you will never experince the joy of accepting Jesus until you have the guts to do it and (then)you can "divorce" him ....but you should at LEAST try.

My two cents and I worship God and He inspires me.
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  lrohnerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Um, maybe he's hiding?
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  schoolgirlforrealposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  ok......Lol
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dutchman1951posted 14 years ago
Mighty Mom, we do not choose. we are indoctrinated into it, (it is Grab the Kids and head for Sunday school), no real choices are made for God as much as to follow Religion, there is a difference between them.

and I am sorry to say this but I have been in the far east and Monks practice the belief, the rest have to survive,- (money, food existence, comes first) and although moral in most choices made, they are just like us, survival counts.

as for living moral, we are afraid of the law, (the governments punishment) not Gods, we do not think about that because he is not in the flesh and visible, but The Court system is!

that is for those of us who do not have a warped criminal outlook.
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  ediggityposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I was not indoctrinated into anything. My household growing up was atheist and evolution. However, I always knew that God was watching over me, even when I didn't know about the teachings of the BIBLE.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Wow, Now that's a testimony! ediggity- I always knew God was real when I was a little girl, and that was before I started studying the bible.
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  Troy C.posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Remember dirty when your fallen angel tried to take over heaven he was cast out, beat down, you're backing a loser!
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  Troy C.posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Schoolgirl, you have something there. They might be bitter because God has not called them. I pray that he will so they will know the peace we have.
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  alternate poetposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  that was the black fairy, the one with the black hat ? I saw that movie, it was much more convincing than the novel.
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Shadesbreathposted 14 years ago
By "accepting Jesus" I presume you mean converting to your religion?

Frankly, I think a better question would be what do we have to gain? You list "peace,joy,love,patience and caring for others and the world around you" is to be gained by converting. But all those things can be gained in all sorts of ways, most of which don't require dedication to a 2000 year old book filled with absurdity and stories of a violent god using magic to wreak his wrath on this populace or that.

Converting to your religion has nothing to do with the experience of that stuff. Humans experienced joy and peace and all that stuff for tens of thousands of years before that story came up. Furthermore, people who have "accepted Jesus" suffer in miserable agony, die of horrible disfiguring disease, are murdered, commit murder, and all sorts of things. The connection between conversion and those things you say is incidental at best.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well said Shadesbreath!
  
  *^5*
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  Troy C.posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thos who truly accept Jesus as their personl savior and live by his doctrine won't commit murder or any of those things. But we all have to, live, die and suffer. Such is life, but the real question is where are you going to spend eternity? Why would the apostles suffer what they did if they had not seen with their own eyes the miracles and life of Jesus. Because they were winesses to it all and they knew of the great reward that awaited them.
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  Shadesbreathposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  Well, here we get to the crux of standard religious codswallop. First you said "those who accept Jesus." Now you're tossing in a caveat that they have to "truly" accept him. This is how religions--and not just yours, so don't feel bad, they all do this--handle it when the promises don't pan out. It's always the same, "Oh, you didn't do it right. You lost your way." Everything bad that happens can be dismissed by just saying they weren't "truly" doing what they were supposed to.
  
  To "truly" do it, you have to be perfect. Which is the whole point. You aren't going to be perfect. You are human. SO, the religion will ALWAYS be able to duck out of being held responsible for the fancy promises. "If he'd only truly accepted Jesus instead of trying to and not doing it right, he wouldn't have had XYZ." Blah blah.
  
  And who gets to be the judge of "truly?"
  
  Furthermore, what you are calling "truly" commited to Jesus is really just being truly commited to not being a douchbag. You don't need to believe in old stories to not be a murderer.
  
  All religion does is add a story and some rituals to what being a good person already meant and required. I will allow that the stories make an easier way to discuss certain moral principles, but I can do that just as easily with the Greek and Roman myths and they are much more fun.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  God is the judge of TRULY. If a person accepts Jesus in their life, and murder someone afterwards, that murderer has to give encounter for turning to evil. Accepting Jesus is not the reason someone murders, and you are off the thread topic as usual. Why not answer the question to the thread? I can see clearly that you rather try to disrupt this thread.
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  Shadesbreathposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I never said it was.
  
  No, I am not off the thread topic at all. Rather, you are selective reading, as usual. Had you bothered to pay attention to the earlier exchanges that lead to the comment you are referring to, you would see how my remarks were a continuation of the exchange. That, however would require you to slow down your holy roll long enough to do so, and that you, for once, enter an exchange without the condescending certainty that you already know best and have all the answers. Which isn't going to happen, I realize.
  
  Have you met Brenda yet? I think you two were separated at birth.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  haha
  I never thought about having a long-lost twin.
  Um....not possible!
  
  But indeed I'm a fan of Woman of Courage.
  And pleased to find my views compared favorably to hers!
  Thank you Shadesbreath.
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  Shadesbreathposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, I think you'd win in cage-match of dogmatic narrow-mindedness, but she definitely has some of your moves. You two are like a pair of Christian Sith-Lords. Entertaining in Internet forums, scary to think of as voters.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks Brenda, I am pleased also!
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  Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I have previously read all of your posts above. The title of the thread is: WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO LOSE BY ACCEPTING JESUS. You have not answered that question not once in any of your messages, but instead, you barge in this forum with nonsense, twisted arguments, and spreading lies.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Live by his- Jesus' doctrine? Do you even know what it is without the Church's influence of the New Testament? Not likely.
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  alternate poetposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  "Thos who truly accept Jesus as their personl savior and live by his doctrine won't commit murder or any of those things"
  
  HA ha aha ha ha ha hah ha ! ! ! - you have me rolling around in uncontrollabel laughter at your unbelievable ignorance and blindness. How do you expect to suck anyone else into your delusions with you if you can't even get such a simple fact right ! You don't have a tooth missing right in the middle do you by any chance ?
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  Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Guess the word "truly" excludes the psychopath I met that was involved in my parent's church that murdered his wife, raped her corpse and buried her under the house? (after doing the same to the neighbour?)
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HarvestCentralposted 14 years ago
I have always asked the question as well of what there is to gain by following Christ. I personally am gaining a new found peace every day. It's hard to explain my relationship with Christ because it's personal and what may seem like something amazing that he did in my life may not seem all that exciting to the next person because usually there are other events that surround the miracle.

So to answer the question, I feel there is a whole lot to gain.
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  Troy C.posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  God bless you HarvestCentral
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Mighty Momposted 14 years ago
You know, I enjoy watching preacher Joel Osteen of the Lakewood Church on TV. He has a wonderful way of relating God's message in down-to-earth, practice life lessons.
However, at the end of each sermon, as he is wrapping up the show, he always says, "Get in a good Bible-based church..."
And every time he says that, I think to myself, "Gee, I THINK my church qualifies as Bible-based, but I'm not entirely sure!"
It's that nagging suspicion that not labeling myself as "born AGAIN" or my "brand" of Christianity are not really accepted by those who walk around asking questions like you've asked, Troy.
Tell me I'm wrong.
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  Troy C.posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It was a question Mighty Mom, I asked what do you think? I wanted feedback and your take on things.
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alternate poetposted 14 years ago
This thread is like that gong they use in tv shows - never mind any answers of discussion the reply is always BONG - wrong, the answer is jesus - BONG - wrong, the answer is jesus - BONG - wrong, the answer is jesus - BONG - wrong, the answer is jesus - BONG - wrong, the answer is jesus - BONG - wrong, the answer is jesus - BONG - wrong, the answer is jesus - BONG - wrong, the answer is jesus -

I think the OP is in the wrong place and time, we aint gullible unnedercated farm folks here y'know - you could try pitching a tent by the road and getting a few snakes an 'all - might work better for you ?
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  Troy C.posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Stick to the thread alternate, can you answer the Question?
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  alternate poetposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Bong ! wrong answer.
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  Troy C.posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You are really full of hate, it shows in your writings.You must have a miserable life always being negative. Like the Bible says a tree is known by it's fruit and your fruit is discontent and hatred to name a few. I will pray for you.
  
  God bless you
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So, what you're saying is that because someone doesn't belong to your religion or disagrees with it, they are full of hate, lead miserable lives and are negative.
  
  What you are actually doing is providing us an example of what it's like to follow Jesus. Notice that your example is one that follows your OP in reference to gaining and losing something, but probably not what you were expecting.
  
  It has been shown that one does not really gain anything other than maybe 'salvation' by following Jesus, but most certainly the loss of respect, tolerance and dignity you exhibit is only too obvious.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Beelzedad- I will not leave you out. I am praying for you also.
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Why bother? There are starving kids dying every day, pray for your god to feed them instead. Let me know his answer. Thanks.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  alternate poet, I will pray for you also.
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  Shadesbreathposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I will pray for you too, Alternate Poet.
  
  I will pray that you never lose your reason and become the blind automaton of some dogmatic enterprise. We may not agree on some stuff, but at least you're still looking for answers too. It's when people stop thinking I get scared.
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paarsurreyposted 14 years ago
WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO LOSE OR GAIN BY ACCEPTING JESUS

Jesus and Moses (as also OT and NT) are to be believed and respected only for the academic value. For all practical purposes belief in Muhammad and Quran is sufficient.
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  Troy C.posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  beelzedad you are in the same boat as A.P., You twist my words to try and make a point. Unlike you I respect and love everyone, christian or non-christian. You on the other hand have displayed nothing but hate for christians.I have a question for you,are you a satanist? Can you please answer the question, what do you have to lose or gain also.
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm really feeling the respect and love of that question?
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  Druid Dudeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  SAYS WHO? All tools of the devil!! The true prophets were Galileo, Da Vinci, Jules Verne. Isaac Asimov, Arthur Clarke. Et Cetera.
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Mighty Momposted 14 years ago
In answer to your question, Brenda, the Higher Power I believe in is God. Still the same God I grew up with, only as I walk my own spiritual path the guidance I receive and my relationship with Him (yes, mine is still a "Him") is direct and not filtered or interpreted by an intermediary like a priest.
However, it has been my experience that turning back to God through recovery (and it is no secret here on HP that I am in recovery -- I write about it quite a bit) that I have been able to more fully embrace my original faith, Catholicism.
This means I believe in the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and a whole bunch of cool saints, too.

I hope that answers your question. MM
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pjk_artistposted 14 years ago
First of all you have to discover the true Jesus before you can accept him. Just saying "I accept Jesus" doesn't do shyt!
When you accept that Jesus, your imagination, is the only creator of your reality you have suddenly a ton to gain or lose. You can lose everything unknowingly and then knowingly get it all back again.

So what do you have to gain or lose?

Just EVERYTHING!
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kimberlyslyricsposted 14 years ago
nothing either way

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waynetposted 14 years ago
Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.....lets praise Jesus!!!!!!!!!
Let his hand make mucho wine!!!
Let his dance be magical!!
Let his karaoke voice win the next pop idol!!
Jesus be praised!!!!

Erm....you lose something, something of a gullible moment of fantasy!
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paarsurreyposted 14 years ago
WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO LOSE OR GAIN BY ACCEPTING JESUS

Jesus and Moses (as also OT and NT) are to be believed and respected only for the academic value. For all practical purposes belief in Muhammad and Quran is sufficient.

One who believes in Muhammad; his belief in Muhammad is incomplete if he does not:

1. Believe in unequivocal belief of ONENESS of the Creator-God Allah YHWH and does not make partners of any kind like believing in Krishna as god, or Jesus as god and spirit as god.
2. Believes in the angels as servant of God.
3. Believe All the Revealed Books truthful in origin.
4. Believe All the Prophets Messenger truthful inclusive of Moses and Jesus.
5. Believe in the hereafter where the Creator- God Allah YHWH would judge everybody.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  libby101aposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I do not agree with all of your statements but I respect it Paarsurrey! One thing i do agree on is what we have to lose or gain is our soul! That is one thing I agree on!!!
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  marty1968posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  How do you Believe in one man who says he had a vision or a visit by Gabriel as fact when there were no witnesses? When Jesus, on the other hand, had many witnesses to his miracles. I respect your beliefs but I think I will go with the One who has more witnesses and proof.
  
  thanks
  I am Marty peaceful Christian
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  Druid Dudeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  A minister once told me: If, in believing, I am wasting my life, then I am wasting my life. If you, in disbelief, waste eternity, then who, then, is the bigger loser?
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  marty1968posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Only if I put my faith in something other than Christ Jesus am I wasting my life and therefore wasting eternity
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  Druid Dudeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Bring on the VIRGINS!
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  marty1968posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  How can you have such disrespect women in that way. I have one woman in my life and that is all I need.
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  marty1968posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Also I dont think God or Allah is in the midst of something so perverse
  
  thanks
  I am Marty peaceful Christian
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  Druid Dudeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Just Kidding Guy! I was referring to the 72 virgins of Islamic promise. Pretty materialistic for paradise. Isn't that in Nevada?
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  marty1968posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah that is pretty materialistic. I cant see how they can see they get 72 virgins. I wonder what the 72 virgins get when they get to heaven? Is heaven for them being a sexual slave to the men? Thats no kind of heaven for a woman. Being one of 72 sexual slaves doesnt seem like much of a paradise
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  libby101aposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well there must not be too many going to heaven because I don't believe there are that many virgins in all of time! Most women get married or have had sex! Unless it's the old maids who nobody wanted anyway... now there might be quite a few of those left!!!
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Mighty Momposted 14 years ago
Woman of Courage asked me "Mighty Mom, are you aware that the bible says Jesus is the only true way?"

As Shadesbreath said. Are YOU aware of how condescending you sound with a question like that? It sounds neutral enough, but we all know it's a loaded question. Am I aware of that?
Well, let's see.
1. There are several, several books in the OT that don't mention Jesus at all. Or do we not count the Old Testament as part of the bible?
2. I just told Brenda that I am a CATHOLIC. Perhaps you don't know anything about the Catholic religion. This is not the time or the place to explain it to you. I suggest you do some research and look it up. Hint: We had Lent, Good Friday, Easter and Ascension Day centuries before whatever "born again" church you belong to was even a gleam in the Creator's eye.
3. As for Jesus being the "only way." It's great and all to know that by being baptized I am on track for Heaven.The problem is, I've decided I don't want to go there just yet, and yet life as I knew it was a living Hell.
Until you have suffered (or watched someone close to you suffer) the unbearable, right-here-right-now agony of alcoholism or addiction you have absolutely no right to suggest to me that only Jesus can relieve that. It's not true -- and trust me, I have heard plenty of people who tried to use religion to stop drinking and failed miserably.
If you want proof, go to any open AA meeting in your area. Maybe that will open your eyes.
In the meantime, do not dare question me or my faith or my recovery again. I'm heading to confession now, as I am guilt of the sin of anger. Ignorance combined with arrogance has that effect on me.
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  marty1968posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I know the effects that alcoholism has on the person themselves and those around them. I am the son of an alcoholic. Alcoholism took his life. However God intended for us to treat our bodies as temples and when we consume things to destroy our bodies, we later reap the consequences of what we"ve sewn. Jesus cleanses us from our sins and forgives us but we still must reap what we sew
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  Shadesbreathposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That comment, coming in response to a clearly heartfelt and genuine expression the nature of MM's post, is so empty and cliché it borders on insult. It's that sort of canned "wisdom" that gets your religion the increasing level of disregard it gets. Did you even spend one second looking inside of yourself as you were reading MM's post, or did you just hork that up on reflex? If you did look into your heart, apparently you ran into a wall of dogmatic concrete before you found any soft, Jesus-like tissue there. The irony is nauseating.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Shadesbreath, I can see that it makes your day worthwhile to spread a bunch a garbage with your words. Have a great day!
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  libby101aposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  My unlce whom I loved dearly died of Sclerosis of the Liver from years of drinking. Later in life he stopped drinking on his own then a year or so before he died he became a christian. On his death bed he suffered horribly and he said he knew it was his own fault from drinking. I know what suffering is... that made two uncles I had watched die from this disease! I know the pain and suffering they go through and the pain you feel watching them! One thing I know is we still pay for what we do! God allows the natural progression of humanity. If our bodies are destroyed from drug abuse or whatever then we bring it on ourselves. We can't expect God to heal us from something we did to our own bodies! My uncle knew his pain would be over and he would have peace in heaven in the end. A small price for eternity in paradise.
  
  I agree there are books in the OT that don't mention Jesus! However there are prophesies of the coming of a Messiah that would suffer. Isaiah 49:6.
  Isaiah, who was a prophet during the Old Testament era, gave many prophecies from God about a Messiah. In this particular example, he reveals that the Messiah would have a worldwide impact in that salvation would be brought to people throughout the world. Jesus fulfilled this prophecy. His promise of salvation has been evangelized to people all over the world.
  
  Micah 5:1-2.
  About 2700 years ago, the prophet Micah prophesied that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem, a small village near Jerusalem. Jesus fulfilled this prophecy about 2000 years ago. Although Jesus was raised in the town of Nazareth, he was born in Bethlehem.
  
  Jeremiah 23:5.
  There are many Messianic prophecies in the Old Testament that predicted the lineage of the Messiah. In Jeremiah 23:5, as well as in other prophecies, we are told that the Messiah would be a descendant of King David. David ruled over the land of Israel about 1000 years before Jesus was born. Jesus is recorded in the New Testament books of Matthew and Luke as being a descendant of King David.
  
  53:1-3.
  Although Jesus was accepted by some people as being the Messiah, he also was rejected by many people. In fact, the rejections led to him being executed, through crucifixion. Isaiah, in the 53rd chapter of the book of Old Testament book of Isaiah, foretold that the Messiah would be rejected. Despite what some modern scholars try to claim, the prophecies of Isaiah 53 have been widely regarded for many, many centuries by Christians and Judaists as being about a Messiah.
  
  9:24-26.
  The prophet Daniel provided a chronology of events that included the revelation that the Messiah would be rejected before the destruction of the second Temple in Jerusalem. The Romans destroyed the Temple in 70 AD, about 40 years after Jesus was crucified. The Temple has never been rebuilt.
  
  Of course the name "Jesus" was not mentioned... he had not been born yet! however it was told many times that a Messaih would be born and would be rejected! In psalms it even speaks of him being crucified! It even goes on to foretell of his clothes being sold in a lot. There's alot more!
  
  I think you have the right to feel and believe however you want! And everyone should respect others rights and beliefs!
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  Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Mighty Mom, I was only asking a simple question relating to what was written in your earlier post. The bible does not say that there are other spiritual paths, and is why I ask a sensible question, and my question was not in any form of arrogance. I am sorry about what you have been through or what you may be going through right now, but I can see that you have overreacted to my question. I have watched a love one suffer also, and I experienced that Jesus was my only comforter. I have not tried in any way to force you to believe what I believe. I hope you are feeling better. God bless you!
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marty1968posted 14 years ago
Thanks Libby for the words of inspiration and encouragement. Also Isaiah 53:5 says By his stripes we are healed. The stripes being the 39 lashes that Jesus took by a whip laced with chips of bone
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  Druid Dudeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
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Brenda Durhamposted 14 years ago
Woman of Courage,
May the Force be with you!

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu16 … kenobi.jpg

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  Shadesbreathposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hate to be the one to break it to you, but that is young Obi Wan. HE was not a sith lord.
  
  THESE are the Sith lords:
  Darth Maul
  and his boss, the Emperor
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  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes of course I know. I stay far away from the Siths.
  It was YOU who accused me of being Sith-lordish; my Star Wars loyalties are with the OTHER side; hence, the pix I posted.
  ...I was actually looking for one with Liam Neeson with his light-saber, now HE was tough, but I had to settle for the other one.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks Brenda, I just took a beating, but through the grace of God I am still standing. I will check that link out when I get a chance.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Check out the second one. That's the True "Force". Praise the Lord!
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  Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks again Brenda, I will check it out now.
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Brenda Durhamposted 14 years ago
Actually, this force----

http://i962.photobucket.com/albums/ae10 … dwkeys.jpg
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  Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Brenda, I clicked on the second link, but the page is not fully displayed.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It's just that one picture of the arm of Jesus with the quotation on the pic.
  Sorry, I'm still no good at embedding actual pictures in the forums....
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  Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Brenda, the first link is showing a man with a sword in his hand, and the second link is now displaying a pic of the arm of Jesus.
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Mighty Momposted 14 years ago
Whatever happened to "Judge not lest ye be judged."?
Apparently the christians who frequent the Hub Pages forums are selective in the parts of the scriptures they quote and even more selective in the word of God that they follow.

Where is the love?

I've already told you I am a christian. I follow the teachings of Christ. I go to church.
But when I try to point out a reality that stems not only from my own experience, but the reality of millions of other alcoholic/addicts around the world who have found recovery and are growing along a spiritual path, you retreat right back into that narrow judgmentalism again.

libby -- In one breath you acknowledge that alcoholism is a disease (which it is, a progressive, fatal disease that cannot be cured, but can be arrested). In the next breath you turn around and say we bring it on ourselves and we can't expect God to heal us from something we did to our own bodies.
I sincerely hope you do not work in any medical capacity where you have to interact with anyone who suffers from this disease. Your ignorance is mindboggling.
Read what I actually said. God DOES heal us from alcoholism.
It's extremely difficult for a real alcoholic to get sober without faith in God.
BTW,I'm very sorry to hear about your two uncles. Death from cirrhosis (or sclerosis as it is sometimes called) of the liver is one of the most painful ways to go. At least with cancer you have people's sympathy. With liver disease, ignorant people like you only sit in judgment.
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  libby101aposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Mighty Mom: I'm sorry you are so quick to judge me! An alcoholic first has to drink quite a bit from the get go to get to the point to where it turns into a disease! Usually it is long term use and abuse that leads to the disease. So, I don't think I"m ingorant at all. That is still something we bring on ourselves! My unlces both started from a point where they abused alcohol over years then it developed to a disease! And the disease I mentioned above was the liver disease NOT the drinking! But I do think it is a disease, only it starts from our own consumption!
  
  I was there for my uncles! I never judged them! So, for you to judge me without knowing who I am or what happened is ignorant on your part! I cried with them! It hurt me more than anyone could ever know! One of the uncles raised me! So for you to tell me I have no sympathy is making a statement from pure ignorance!
  
  I was answering your questions! You mentioned unless anyone has been there then don't bother you. Well I've been there! You also ask about the OT and Jesus. I answered that. If you don't want to hear what people have to say then don't ask questions!
  
  Have a nice day!
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Brenda Durhamposted 14 years ago
So...what do you think about the one of the Lord's hand?
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ralwusposted 14 years ago
do i have to relinquish my jug?
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't know ??
  
  Do you use it as an excuse for your actions very often ?
  
  If not? .... Then WHY would ya ?
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Mighty Momposted 14 years ago
"God bless you!"
"Have a great day!"
Yes, same to you, Woman of Courage. And I mean that every bit as sincerely as you do.

Looks like this Come to Jesus meeting's finally coming to a close. Hallelujah!
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  Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you Mighty Mom, but this meeting has not come to a close to those who desire to reach out to Christ. This is a open forum.
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Mighty Momposted 14 years ago
Gosh Baileybear,
Your mom's reaction to your illness sounds anything but Christian to me. Typical, tho.
Depression is one of those things -- not unlike alcoholism -- either you "get it" or you armchair quarterback and demand that the sufferer snap out of it and pull herself up by her bootstraps (while she thinks to herself, "WHAT bootstraps?").

I know! Maybe what you need is a good old fashioned case of cancer to keep you from backsliding.
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Mighty Momposted 14 years ago
AP. That is a horrible thing to say to your wife. How could your children be a waste of time? That statement doesn't even make sense.
Amazing what damage is inflicted in the name of religion.
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Mighty Momposted 14 years ago
Uh, Cags. I fear they're getting to you. This statement proves nothing. What about the mailman?
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  Shadesbreathposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, she's got you there, dude.
  
  Do you ever feel compelled to hand out presents at Christmas? To be the one who runs to the store to pick up beer or pizza or something?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Ironic, I do hand out the gifts when it is time to do so.
  Again, I'll take the or something for $1000
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You're right Mighty Mom, but my Mother has dismissed the rumors that I came from the mailman. And, I have to take her at her word.
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  ralwusposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  LOL and here I was thinking it was their neighbor the Professor. Doh!
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Mighty Momposted 14 years ago
I admit I am now lost. It truly has been an exhausting day here on the forums and my brain is mush.
I simply cannot participate in any sneakiness (and even at my best I am only semi-sneaky anyway).
Enjoy your beer, pizza, something, and most of all, the pleasure of each other's company.
Night, all!
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Good night Mighty Mom. Sleep well, sweet dreams and be safe.
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  Shadesbreathposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Night MM. As a professional sarcasmatician, I hope that you know that I am eternally your ally, even if I become too obscure for even my own reckoning.
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Stevennix2001posted 14 years ago
@diane inside

take it from me when i tell you this, people will ALWAYS believe what they want to believe. Sure, there are a few select few that can keep an open mind about things but for every one person, that equals to over 1000 or more people that don't have an open mind. Sure, most of these so called intelligent people who love pointing out the flaws in the logic of others will always speak of being open minded, but seldom few ever back it up by actually LISTENING to others and practice what they preach.

I remember once asking a lot of atheists in forums about remembering the lessons of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. About how we shouldn't lower ourselves to mudslinging to get a point across. By we, i mean both atheists and religious folk here. No, he got his point across about equality with love and being BETTER than the people that oppressed him. That's how he changed the world. He never made fun of anyone or ridiculed someone's intelligence. No, he just preached about his dream of equality and encouraged others not to fight back with hostility, but rather love. Alas, my post was ignored and nobody cared.

However, I will say this. As a great man once told me, you show me a man that knows everything, and I'll show you a man that knows nothing. Show me a man that's quick to ridicule and point out the lack of intelligence in others, and I'll show you a man that's a hypocrite. The point is, we're all the same here on hubpages. Whether you want to believe that or not, it's the truth. Each and every one us are intelligent gifted writers on hubpages. otherwise, none of us would be here. Therefore, lets all agree to disagree here.

I remember one person said in a forum once people that all religious people are selfish. How so? I don't think it's selfish a for person to practice religion. No more than i think it's selfish for two gay guys or two gay girls to marry each other. All I ask is they don't push their beliefs on me, and I won't push mine on them. If they did push their beliefs on me, then that WOULD BE SELFISH. However, if everyone respected and acknowledged my beliefs, then I see no reason why i can't do the same.

I know some of you atheists preach how religious fanatics push their religion down your throats, and that's why you label them selfish. However, don't you think your doing the EXACT same thing by questioning a person's intellect just because they believe in god? Seriously, it's the same damn thing. Enough. Did Martin Luther King Jr. do that? hell no. he changed the world by being better than his enemy. therefore, atheists if you want respect, then take a not from King Jr. Love thy enemy and not persecute him. All I ask you is to do the same. You claim all religious people are selfish by pushing their beliefs down your throat, but your doing the same thing here in forums. therefore, don't stoop to the level that you claim the other side is doing. be better than that. that's how you change the world.
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  Diane Insideposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thats all I'm saying I see the same people (no names) who come to these forums and once someone disagrees or posts a different view from theirs they try to insinuate lack of intelligence.
  
  I know people will believe what they want, and that's fine but please people, no name calling, or in most cases, they don't actually name call, but rather, insinuate that the one who disagrees must not know what they are talking about, and use words like, "lack of intelligence" "shows your ingnorance" etc.
  
  I agree Steve but no matter what any plea of civility in these forums will probably do no good.
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  Stevennix2001posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, your probably right about that in regards to the plea of civility in forums. However, I refuse to give on it. Besides, that would be the easy way out of things. After all, one man can't make a difference...but it only takes one to get something started.
  
  edit: by the way, thanks for agreeing with me.
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  Diane Insideposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I really wish there would be a forum here that was truly religious that atheists do not participate in.
  
  I mean if they feel it is pushed down their throats then why do they insist on participating?
  
  Same goes for atheist type forum posts if they are directed at atheists and a religious point of view is not welcomed then they should stay out, and let them converse amongst themselves.
  
  I think that would bring a certain amount of civility back to the forums.
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  Stevennix2001posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  yeah, but the only problem with that scenario is, you can't control who posts in which forums. a christian can easily still post in an atheist forum and vice versa, as it doesn't violate any hubpages' rules. i see what your saying though, and idealistically that would be a great idea.
  
  However, if it were up to me, I just shut down all religious and political forums completely. although I know you can call me a hypocrite for participating in a forum that i want to see closed down. The reality is for me, after hearing so much about how people get into trouble on these forums, I was a bit curious to see what all the fuss is about. Quite frankly, I'm not impressed. Sure, I've been lucky not to get into any kind of debate with anyone here. but then again, I'm not even trying to, so that might explain it. lol.
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Diane Insideposted 14 years ago
Yeah that might be nice just get rid of all religious and political forums altogether.

No likely to happen but that would solve everything. I guess the only way to really do is not participate in them since they are not going away.

But somehow I let myself get sucked in sometimes, lol. I have been careful not to too much tho because it is really just a waste of energy.

O well, that's the way it is.
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  Stevennix2001posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  yeah, im kind of the same way myself, and your right about them not going away. to be honest, i don't even come into religious forums that often, unless it talks about a topic that interests me. other than that, i could care less what someone else wants to believe. lol.
  
  besides, the way i look at things, we're all going to the same place anyway when we die, so we'll find out the ultimate answer then. therefore, why even worry about it. life is too short to worry about who believes in what or lack thereof. I say whatever makes you happy.
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Diane Insideposted 14 years ago
I'm inclined to agree, life is too short. And really I am not overly religious anyway. I mean I do believe in God but I try not to judge people for what they believe.

And I by no means have any right to tell someone else that they are wrong, or are "sinners" since I can't seem to keep my own self out of trouble. lol

And to be truthful I am not a good debater at all, I couldn't debate myself out of a paper sack.lol
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  Stevennix2001posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, I'm the same way. Although I do believe in god. The reality is, I haven't really been to church in years. I probably should go back someday, but that's another story. Besides, I'm no saint either. Although I try to be, it doesn't always work out that way. just ask my brother about that sometime.
  
  neither could i. although for some reason, some people on hubpages refer to me as a wordy warrior along with cagsil. whatever that means. i'm not sure if i agree with that but hey, it's their opinion. Not mine. i can see that about cagsil, as he's an educated guy, but me? nah, i don't think so. if anything I'm probably just average hubber with an opinion that's all.
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  Diane Insideposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You know I used to ( when I was younger) really try to be good. Do the right thing, be kind all the time, be the perfect person. And I mean to a fault.
  
  What I mean is people will take advantage of that, they take you as a push over. Easily persuaded, or just an easy mark. Men saw it as a turn off too because they thought I didn't know how to have fun. If you know what I mean.
  
  So I figured out I wasn't being myself and lightened up so to speak. I mean I didn't just throw my morals out the window, but I did ease up a quite a bit. No so prudish I guess you could say. Which has really been a good thing for me because I quit being so hard on myself.
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  Stevennix2001posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  that sounds good. im glad to hear you found some sort of balance in your life then. it's never good to be too hard on yourself. as a good friend told me, you can't control how others react, you can only control what you do.
  
  your right about how some people will often try to take advantage of others if your not careful, as that's kind of the sad world we live in, unfortunately.
  
  well diane, it was nice talking with you, as you seem like a nice person. however, it's already like 4 am here, and i need to get up early for work. anyways, you take care of yourself. you have a goodnight.
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  Diane Insideposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, same to ya, have a nice "nap". And a great day at work. Good night or morning. whichever. lol
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paarsurreyposted 14 years ago
I am sorry to state that by believing a mythical Jesus of Bible one gains a little and loses much more.

1. Jesus is not the savior’ that is totally wrong; he could not save himself from a cursed death on the Cross, as per the Bible, so he cannot save others in this world or in the hereafter.

2. It is the Creator-God Allah YHWH who saved Jesus a cursed death on the cross and managed to save Jesus’ life and later Jesus migrated from Judea to Srinagar, Kashmir, India. He who saved Jesus’ life is the savior of Jesus and others; let there be no doubt in this connection.

3. Accepting a human, as urinating god, or son of god is the biggest loss one gets.

4. It would just spoil one’s life; as Jesus himself never believed in it; it was a clever creed of Paul.

5. Nothing to gain and everything to lose by believing in the Jesus of Bible.

6. One should believe in Jesus of Quran and Mary of Quran; there is no harm in believing what Jesus and Mary of Quran believed and doing good deeds as they both did.

I have expressed what I believe sincerely; others have the right to differ with me; no compulsion.
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paarsurreyposted 14 years ago
Nothing to gain and everything to lose by believing in the Jesus of Bible.
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Those kind of statements start wars. Not very peaceful of you, sir.
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  Troy C.posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus had to die on the cross, he gave himself as the perfect sacrifice, so we could be forgive of our sins. Matthew 20:28" just as the son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve and give his life a ransom for many". No selfish motives there at all. You have nothing to lose by following Christ but eternal damnation. Please ask the Holy Sirit into yor heart and except Jesus as your personal savior.
  God bless you all, Troy C.
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  libby101aposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Paasurrey, I thought you were peaceful? That's what your signature says! People should respect others beliefs! You did start something! And and that is wrong! Some people would say that believing in something that is totally based on one man's experience, not from any witnesses just his word is crazy! But that is your belief and your business! So why throw down someone elses religion? If I were you I wouldn't put "peaceful" in my signature anymore because that makes you out to be a liar!!!
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  libby101aposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Paasurrey, the religion you so strongly believe in has a promise of a load of virgins for your reward! That is perverted in nature! That is one man's idea of paradise... a man!!! Muhammad sounds like a pervert!
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Wayne Tullyposted 14 years ago
You lose a lot of wasted time.....better to go to football games religiously!
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  Troy C.posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Time is never wasted when you are working for the Lord.
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  Wayne Tullyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  LOL0lololololololololol!
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paarsurreyposted 14 years ago
Nothing to gain and everything to lose by believing in the Jesus of Bible.

Jesus of Bible is a crafty invention of Paul and the Church; it has nothing to do with the real Jesus.
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  As you obviously do not know Him, I suggest that you are unqualified to say this.
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getitriteposted 14 years ago
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  Diane Insideposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't jesus raised from the dead, So he is no longer dead. Proof of an afterlife.
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry, that has already been debunked countless times. How many more times will it have to be debunked before you get it. Those who still base their beliefs on that type of nonsense are delusional.
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Keep saying it and someone other than the rest of the cabal might believe it, more puerile repetition from you....
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Let a live one change it!
  
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  Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  aquasilver, I love the beautiful, refreshing image. Thanks for sharing!
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paarsurreyposted 14 years ago
Diane Inside wrote:

I don't jesus raised from the dead, So he is no longer dead. Proof of an afterlife.

Paarsurrey says:

He never died on the Cross; so there is no question of him being raised from the dead.

It is a mythical concept invented by Paul and continued by the Church.

Thanks
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  Druid Dudeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And the Christians face off against the Muslim team. Nobody ever scores win point, but it's a fun sport anyways. Anyone for a CRUSADE?
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No need of any crusades now; this is an era of pen and reason; Christians will get convinced, I am sure, by brilliant arguments of Quran, if they leave their blind faith and use their free will as they claim.
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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
You can recognise love. It is never conditional
"You can be loved if" is not love.

A psychological reality conveniently overlooked by religionists
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Mighty Momposted 14 years ago
Reading through this thread does nothing to convince me of any benefits of Christianity -- as espoused by its proponents here.
The word that comes to mind is RABID.
One doesn't have to be an atheist to take offense at the not-so-subtly veiled condemnation in the form of blatant condescension.

I do happen to be Christian. My faith is personal. I don't go around shoving it down other people's throats or tell others they're wrong or even missing out.
If you want to do that, go be a "real" missionary with a population that will either appreciate your efforts or not have the strength to resist. Guess what, people? You're NEVER going to find that on Hub Pages. The hubbers here are too intelligent.

Final point: Everyone has a right to believe in the god of their understanding, or not to believe in god at all. (See US Constitution for reference).
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with you; there is no compulsion in the matters of faith/religion.
  
  [2:257] There should be no compulsion in religion. Surely, right has become distinct from wrong; so whosoever refuses to be led by those who transgress, and believes in Allah, has surely grasped a strong handle which knows no breaking. And Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing.
  [2:258] Allah is the friend of those who believe: He brings them out of every kind of darkness into light. And those who disbelieve, their friends are the transgressors who bring them out of light into every kind of darkness. These are the inmates of the Fire; therein shall they abide.
  
  http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … ;verse=256
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  60
  Troy C.posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hello my fellow Christian also the atheist and agnostics. God bless you all and have a good day. I love all of the positive comments by believers, I think you are special as God has chosen you from among the masses to represent him, here in the pages of hub. Continue your good works, you will be rewarded.
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49
paarsurreyposted 14 years ago
what do you have to lose or gain

Jesus was not the savior; he himself was saved a cursed death on the Cross; by the grace of the Creator-God; and Jesus did not die on the Cross.
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