What is your standard for belief in a miracle?

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AKA Winstonposted 13 years ago
The Scottish philosopher David Hume turned religion on its head with this reasoned and well-expressed thought on the miraculous:

"That no testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous, than the fact, which it endeavours to establish....
When anyone tells me, that he saw a dead man restored to life, I immediately consider with myself, whether it be more probable, that this person should either deceive or be deceived, or that the fact, which he relates, should really have happened. I weigh the one miracle against the other; and according to the superiority, which I discover, I pronounce my decision, and always reject the greater miracle."

Hume used both natural laws and human experience as his guage for miracles, noting that iron does not float in midair, that wood burns, and that no one has seen a truly dead man arise from his grave and live again.

I side with Hume.
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  AKA:
  "What is your standard for belief in a miracle?"
  
  ZILCH!
  
  Qwark :
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  the pink umbrellaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Its a meracle that you have yet to be attacked by....well you know who.
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  pennyofheavenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I think watching someone or something bring new life into this world is miraculous. Does that count?
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  kimberlyslyricsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I suppose there are so many degrees defining what a miracle is when in fact it is something good that happens that is unexplainable for the most part
  
  I never think of miracles, just life and give gratitude for gifts undeserving. Then flip the finger when me dad dies RIP sorry.
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  pylos26posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Grow me a new leg jesus and I’ll spread the word fer ya, and even begin capitalizing your name. Incidentally, I have no need for another leg, but you might grow one for someone else.
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  AKA Winstonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  There is a hubber who claims he has been the cause of 12 miracles, including his best of dividing traffic on Wilshire Blvd during rush hour. I made the same bet with him: re-grow and amputee's limb.
  
  We are still waiting.
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Ultimate Hubberposted 13 years ago
Someone once said: Believe in miracles, but don't rely on them.
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  AKA Winstonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That was probably Uri Geller. :-))
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just_curiousposted 13 years ago
I've always heard if an atheist says it's impossible there's a slight chance it could be a miracle. But be suspicious of they agree. They're quite possibly laughing at you behind your back.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It doesn't matter whether an atheist states either way, if the alleged miracle clearly defies physical laws, it is this concept which should be the core of the discussion and not the imagined or contrived weight of the claim itself.
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I know. Sorry, that was obviously a lame attempt at a joke. I'll endeavor to come up with something clever next time.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  physical laws can be interrupted by the one who made the laws. Physical laws are not really laws but occurrences. For anyone to say that physical laws are more powerful than God (the one who set it all up) is really talking imagined or contrived nonsense.
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melporposted 13 years ago
If everyone who are suffering from the same illness, the same sickness, or the same physical ailments and all these sufferers were cured at the same time then I will call it a miracle. Just seeing something happening once for one person out of more than 6 billion people is not a miracle to me.
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just_curiousposted 13 years ago
Hey aka, a miracle doesn't have to be something as amazing as someone rising from the dead. It can simply be an event that could only have occurred through divine interaction and cannot be explained by any other means.
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  AKA Winstonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  @ just_curious,
  
  (a miracle doesn't have to be something as amazing as someone rising from the dead. It can simply be an event that could only have occurred through divine interaction and cannot be explained by any other means)
  
  You mean like someone rising from the dead?
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Of course, but that is one example. I just got the impression that you were implying it would have to be something verifiable by every person, every where. Some miracles are small enough they can only be truly verified by the one person they happened to. Can't prove them to the world, but you can't deny they exist anymore; at least, unfortunately, to yourself.
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  AKA Winstonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  (Some miracles are small enough they can only be truly verified by the one person they happened to.)
  
  So in this sense you would consider it a miracle that the neighbor's dog talked to the Son of Sam? See, I would call that B.S.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  absolutely ... dogs do not talk ... and it would be useless of god to make a dog talk as that would be unbelievable to many and laughable to most. Son of sam was clearly a lunatic and a liar. Not a good source for credible info at all.
  Of course miracles ... only occur when God is actually in the picture and the miracle of course cannot take away from a persons faith.. for instance if one were to actually rise from the dead when the name of jesus was presented,, then bam there goes faith.
  Faith is the substance of things NOT seen and never shall we see things that destroy our faith. Therefore actual miracles are done behind the scenes and not abruptly before our eyes. I know of people whose cancer has been miraculously erased in a fortnight. this is a miracle but not one so obvious that it cannot be an abolisher of faith.
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  AKA Winstonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  (absolutely ... dogs do not talk ... and it would be useless of god to make a dog talk)
  
  Then I guess that means the story about Mohammed flying to heaven on a horse is nonsense, too, but the burning bush that talked was real?
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  burning bush that talked comes from a time of signs and wonders which is over so yes that is real, just like the rest of the signs and wonders, parting of the sea, pillar of fire and cloud during the daytime. balaams donkey appeared to have talked (just to add that) Signs and wonders is what any God would do to prove himself to humans. When God persuaded moses to go to the pharaoh he made two signs to moses, his lepered arm and the rod to a snake, convincing? yep.
  But under the new dispensation or covenant or deal with God there are not signs and wonders that (old) way again.
  Mohammed never flew on a horse, this i believe wholeheartedly.
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  AKA Winstonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  An oddity about belief systems is that we can easily pick out the irrationalities in competing belief systems but cannot turn that strong searchlight on our own beliefs and examine them in the same light.
  
  Mohammed didn't fly on a horse - but a burning bush talked.
  The disctinction between these two claims is belief, and if we believe either claim we have to rationalize the irrational in order to legitimize that belief to ourselves.
  
  Hence, the "it was the best of signs and wonders times, it was the worst of signs and wonders times" explanation justifies that humans can turn into salt and bushes can burn and talk.
  
  Of course, we are all capable of believing irrational ideas, so I am not trying to pick on brotheryochanan. But I do find it curious that we find it easy to pick out competing delusions for disbelief but find it nearly impossible to penetrate our own delusions.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The key here is sticking to one source. If we believe both the quran and the bible we find conflicting ideas between the two. I am strictly bible based therefore the quran contradicts bible. My reasons for bible belief are well founded and solid. Timeline for one, which came first? Did God ever dictate his belief system via angel.. the mormons think so, but the bible says no.
  
  One cannot combine all sources of Godiality. The bible again confirms this. All roads do not lead to God otherwise the sacrifice of His Son would not have been necessary or the strict preaching and teaching of the torah by God himself and neither could God say his children were wrong to sacrifice to other false Gods and neither could God say "there is only one God and none other.
  
  Proof of belief is numerous. Since no one in the bible ever flew on a horse or was taken up to heaven, the bible once again supports both claims, the bible must be believed. Jesus said John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven". Another endorsement that Jesus was God in the flesh and that heaven is not for people. Hebrews states:
  Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God".
  and continues this thought:
  Hebrews 11:13 "These all died in faith,.." and enoch is among the list.
  
  The instance of the burning bush, it was not the bush that talked but God who spoke, the bush was a sign of His power and dominion. Balaams donkey loosed (means slackened, agape) its a ventriloquist act. God spoke. The thunderings and quakings at mt sinai were God not the mountain.
  Thanks for not pickin on me. i hope you see the same of me toward you
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  AKA Winstonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  brotheryochanan,
  
  You do me great service by proving my points a billion times more forcefully than I could myself.
  
  My points again: "we can easily pick out the irrationalities in competing belief systems but cannot turn that strong searchlight on our own beliefs" and "we have to rationalize the irrational in order to legitimize that belief".
  
  The classic example was this: horses can't fly, but the burning didn't talk - it was god.
  
  I rest my case.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  sorry you have no case.
  When things are explained the bible comes up a winner that only proves my points
  
  not yours
  
  If you think i do not put a searchlight on my beliefs than perhaps you make points out of inferences.
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  AKA Winstonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  (When things are explained the bible comes up a winner)
  
  Thank you again, brotheryochanan, you have provided a textbook example of rationalization.
  
  "When things are explained....."
  
  It doesn't get any more clear than that.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  you are welcomed
  and i am glad you agree
  
  when you get off the ropes feel free to actually say something
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  There are a couple of flaws with your rationale. If you claim to stick to one source and a timeline, then you should believe the Quran. Like to change from the OT to the NT, the source is the same and the timeline is that the OT came first. The NT also conflicts with ideas of the OT. With the Quran, the source is the same, Abrahamic god and the timeline is that the NT came first and the Quran is here to replace it just like the NT replaced the OT.
  
  That makes no sense, there were magical events in the bible as well as the Quran. Walking on water, curing lepers, etc. Sorry, that one doesn't fly either.
  
  Seems your arguments are in favor of the Quran and not the bible.
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  DoubleScorpionposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Why couldn't a god make a dog talk? A Snake talked in the Bible, So did a Donkey, A Burning Bush, Voice from Clouds. And as every christian I have ever talked to says..."With god all things are possible"...
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, I get your stand. Anyone that has witnessed a miracle is crazy. OK. That is pretty easy to follow.. Out of curiosity, why did you ask the question? It seems anyone wit such a rigid stand would consider any conversation on the subject pointless.
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  AKA Winstonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  (Out of curiosity, why did you ask the question?)
  
  For the same reason I write - to get people to use their brains and think about what they believe. Is it a reasonable belief?
  
  I wasn't being smartass about the Son of Sam and the dog - I was just pointing out that your reasoning, if followed about small miracles, would have to include that type of action, as well. So it is really a subjective belief, based on a decision about which action is miraculous and which isn't.
  
  And that was Hume's point - that it is more likely a person has been fooled, has misinterpreted what occured, has lied, etc., than natural law has been violated.
  
  Here is the bottom line: Believers believe. For example, one who believes there are such things as ghosts, demons, spirits, and miracles is much more likely to offer such as an explanation and to accept such explanations when they are offered.
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Darn you aka. I was sure you were going to come from a less reasonable angle. I was looking for fun. I agree. Yet I would disagree on the talking dog point. The more reasonable explanation is mental illness. I do still believe the jury is out on Mr Ed.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  was not the splitting of the atom an breaking of the physical laws? and did that destroy the earth? or did it continue all around the earth? NO
  the nature and natural laws just allowed for it, did their thing concerning it and viola! nature became an accommodating hostess to the event just as it will or would to any miracle.
  The human mind can indeed conjure up some grand delusions and it often sees what it want to sees. The person alone on a dark path can hear noises that arent there and imagine things in shadows. People who go to psychics to hear from their dead relatives often are quite eager to hear from the psychic what they want or need to hear that they help the psychic with thier cold or hot reading and hence persuade themselves. Near death experiences are in most probability, neuro synapsis frantically trying to reconnect to demising parts and endocrines and endorphines and stimulus struggling to survive thus coupled with the ever popular white light at the end of a tunnel story, which is what a person dying sees. There is much deception in the world but only one God who is separate from many claimed supernatural events in the way that He did not create them.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Not at all, it aligned with the physical laws. No miracles there. Just science.
  
  Don't see how your god is separate from any other supernatural myth.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  how can u say that splitting something that never before was split or that should not have been split or that man caused to be split is in alignment with physical laws... where are other examples of atoms being split in nature please. I perceive the splitting of an atom as an undoing or reverse mechanics of a natural procedure not in alignment at all.
  
  my point was that in the super natural event nature became perfect hostess to the event as it would be also a perfect host to an angel appearing or christ appearing in the center of a room while all the doors were locked as He did in acts.
  
  Please try to back up what you say, your short, one liners are boring.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  http://nuclearplanet.com/
  http://enochthered.wordpress.com/catego … -reactors/
  http://www.physics.isu.edu/radinf/Files/Okloreactor.pdf
  
  That enough cousin?
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I would like to than Mark Knowles for providing examples, there are more, too.
  
  But, I think your question is a good one and should be explained.
  
  When we say something violates the physical laws of the universe, it does not mean that man reproduces some event, like the splitting of an atom, for example. What it means is that an event cannot possibly occur, whether implemented by man or happening in nature as the event would go against the fundamental properties of those particular laws.
  
  We can look at something familiar to us all; gravity. If you claimed for example that you were able to defy gravity with what would appear to be no means of support, you would be in fact violating that law.
  
  Or, if we use one of Newton's laws; for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. If you claimed that you created an action of force and nothing happened in the form of a reaction, that would violate that particular law and you would be in the position of trying to show how exactly that occurred, and most likely you could not.
  
  We can further this concept by adding that even though an event or phenomenon does not happen to occur in nature, we can take knowledge of the current physical laws and hypothesize something occurring that would not violate any of those laws but instead would align with them. Scientists have done this, as an example, there are new elements created that did not appear on the Periodical Table before.
  
  I hope this helps, please let me know if I was clear enough in my explanation.
  
  The supernatural realm, by definition, is a realm that is supposed to exist outside of nature, in other words, if it existed, it would not be affected by our physical laws. If anything happened to cross over from that realm into our physical realm, then it would indeed be affected by our physical laws.
  
  An angel is a good example. If you or anyone else claimed to see an angel, we have a problem as that would violate certain physical laws as the angel has now crossed over from the supernatural realm into the physical realm.
  
  In the physical realm, we would have to question how it is possible to actually see the angel, considering that in order for us to see anything as our eyes detect photons (light), the light emitting from the angel would have to have a source, just like the light we see in the daytime, the source is the sun, or the lights we have in our homes, the source is the electricity and the light bulb.
  
  And, if the angel is floating in mid air, it is violating the law of gravity. How does it do that?
  
  So, you can see the problems that begin to arise when the supernatural is brought forth into our natural world.
  
  Of course, you may very well claim that god did it as he is all-powerful and can override any physical law.
  
  We are then right back to where we started before wherein the person making that claim needs to support it by providing the evidence their particular god actually exists.
  
  You'll notice that I achieved your request. Please feel free to ask any more questions regarding my explanation.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  enough.
  you change things to suit your own likeing
  so when man creates a gravity inhibitor and causes something to float you will then say this is in accordance with the laws of physics because as splitting an atom was also in accordance just because man made it.
  baloney.
  your angel theory
  A spirit does not weigh anything. There are no fat spirits or skinny, perhaps large and small even really really big but i assume their size, though models of all three are displayed in the bible. A spirit cannot be grasped by gravity.
  So when an angel comes floating along, it does not interrupt the flow of physical laws because it is not part and cannot be affected by physical laws.
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  pennyofheavenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Life and living is a miraculous event.
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ralwusposted 13 years ago
I don't necessarily believe in them, but that mountain climber in Scotland who just fell 1000 feet and was found standing at the bottom of the mountain reading his map would qualify it for me. No broken bones at all, just scuffed up and with a sore chest. Awesome! umm, but then maybe it was only luck?
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  AKA Winstonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  @ ralwus,
  
  Maybe the story is just bulls#$&.
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  ralwusposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hah, mebbe so, but look it up. Was on the news. Conspiracy afoot?
  Never mind, here is a link to it:
  http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_upshot/20 … shot/20907
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  AKA Winstonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  @ ralwus,
  
  You are offering an excellent example of Hume's point - what is more likely. It shows that belief is subjective - in other words, belief is based on an individual's opinion and is often wrong.
  
  Intelligent people will cling to comforting unreasonable beliefs because there is little-to-no harm in doing so. There is really no negative consequence for believing this story to be an example of an intervention of a superbeing - as long as you don't act on the belief - like throwing yourself off a ten-story building as an act of faith - or flying a hijacked airliner into the side of an occupied building.
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  AKA Winstonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ralwus, et al,
  
  Btw,
  
  In 1969 a columnist at a tiny newspaper wrote an account, based on what turned out to be simply urban legend, about NASA scientists using NASA computers to discover a "missing day", just like the bible states.
  
  This one little column in a tiny newspaper went ballistic, and was reprinted all over the world in newspapers, magazines, and books, without anyone doing any real fact-checking on the original story.
  
  This story even now will show up on occasion on the internet or in an e-mail chain letter.
  
  And it is 100% bogus - entirely made up.
  
  And the fact that this one tiny article could fool an entire world into printing it is pretty miraculous, all right, but being some of the people who are fooled some of the time doesn't do much to add credibility to the editorial staffs who promulgated this particular myth.
  
  Again, believers believe - and are quick to pass on incredible stories that justify their belief.
  
  For example, look at brotheryochanan, probably a nice enough guy if you knew him personally, but also someone of strong beliefs, and he said this:
  "I know of people whose cancer has been miraculously erased in a fortnight..."
  
  Notice he is passing on his belief as if it were fact. There is no objective method to verify any causitive relationship between faith and healing - it is all opinion, subjective. What is spontaneous remission to me is miracle to brotheryochan. The difference is that he seems to need an agent to explain a mechanism for oddities whereas I do not - I simply accept it as an oddity of biology that happens now and again, with or without prayer or faith.
  
  So the reality of his statement is this: I (believe) people have had cancer erased, and I (believe) this is the work of a supreme being.
  
  Believers believe. But belief in a belief does not make that belief reality.
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  jomineposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  no winston. i think ralwus is right. that was indeed a miracle,
  just like a person sliped on the road and died....miracle
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  AKA Winstonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Interesting. Your offer a negation (no winston) and validate it with nothing but opinion (i think).
  
  It would have been quicker and killed fewer pixels to simply say I believe in miracles.
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  jomineposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  you have mistaken me.
  i was just saying if somebody surviving from a fall from a great height is a miracle, somebody not surviving from a small fall is also a miracle. but you won't find many takers for it, will you, for that won't support the god theory.
  i don't believe in any such nonsenses and was trying to be sarcastic, but seeing your response, i think, i failed.
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  AKA Winstonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  oops, my bad
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cheaptrickposted 13 years ago
The great thing about belief is it remains mailable and can change if new data is found.Knowing is a whole nother thing.When one Knows one closes the door to change.Miracles do not exist in my opinion.They are phenomenon beyond our ability to understand at this point in our development.No one knows the abilities of the human brain when 100%is engaged and focused.Common objects we use daily would be miraculous to folks in the past.We understand them so they have no divinity to us.I recently read a hub about"Cargo cults"that is a great example of our need for supernatural events and beings[My sincere apology to the writer of that hub.I don't recall their name].
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  AKA Winstonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  (The great thing about belief is it remains mailable)
  
  Even more important than mailable beliefs is malleable spelling. :-))
  Otherwise the beliefs I Federal Expressed to my cousin last week won't get there until they are no longer gnu, ya' no?
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  cheaptrickposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sarcasm is not appropriate here.It is nothing more than the reflection of a limited mind.You zero in on spelling because because you do not understand.So attack and ridicule all you like.It's amusing in a childish sort of way.I suggest you try breaking the barrier you have thrown up and get an education.It really is worth it...I promise young man
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  AKA Winstonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  cheaptrick,
  
  Sorry, but I thought you would get the joke and take it for the compliment it was meant to be - compliment in the sense that I was certain you would be mature and sensible enough to be able to laugh at yourself without taking yourself and a silly mistake so seriously.
  
  Guess I was wrong, there.
  
  We all make silly spelling and typing errors - and I head the list - and from your levelheaded comments I was confident you would laugh along with me at a tongue-in-cheek poke at human foibles.
  
  Guess I'll know better next time. Ce la vie.
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  cheaptrickposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "It's been my observation the when people are being funny,there deadly serious...and when there being serious,it's usually funny" Jim Morison
  I have no problem laughing at my self.My humor hubs attest to that.When you reply to a serious post with humorous reply you are discounting the person who wrote it.The implied message here is this guy can't even spell so why give his words credibility.It's entirely possible that I am wrong here so I leave it to our fellow hubbers to decide for them selves.If the consensus is that I am,I will publicly apologise.So Y'all,It's up to you.I bow to the opinion of Y'all.
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  AKA Winstonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  cheaptrick,
  
  I don't care for an American Idol-type vote that proves nothing but biases. And I don't want a public apology.
  
  I was simply doing what I do - exercising my own sense of humor. to amuse myself and you got in the way - no harm intended. If I had made the same mistake in writing myself, I would be just as likely later, if I noticed the eror, to casitgate myself in the same way. It is the humor, not the target, that interests me.
  
  The joke was meant as a play on words, not an insult. I can do no more than explain. You either will or will not accept my explanation. I can't force your hand.
  
  However, I could Federal Express an apology to you if that would help. (That's a joke. Lighten up.)
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  AKA:
  Hahahaha..
  Loved it! :
  Qwark
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  if you told people that lived 100 years ago that everyone would have phones with no wires, they'd think it was witchcraft, or a miracle, or something else supernatural
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  or they might think it to be science. I recall seeing pictures of flying cars and jet packs when i was a child. I did not think witchcraft.
  
  Clearly you have designed this message to depict a self styled conclusion which i believe is false.
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  pennyofheavenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Funny how the brain receives 4 million bits of information per second and can only decode aroun 20000 bits. Perhaps the geniuses of old and new are using a tad bit more. Thats kind of miraculous.
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Lisa HWposted 13 years ago
Sometimes, when it seems like there's little reason in continuing to hope; or when it seems like there no reason to have much hope; or when it looks like there's very little hope; something will happen that turns things around.

That "something" could be something that has an easily explained cause, or it could be caused by something that has a scientific explanation that nobody can yet see, or it could simply not be something that has an explanation.

Sometimes, too, there are things that go on (often in Nature) that are just so hard to "get our minds around" they can seem like nothing short of miraculous. Maybe sometimes, if it feels like a miracle then it IS a miracle. Newborn babies come to mind.

These are my standards for "miracle", and the first kind is the kind of miracles for which so many people in dire situations so often hope. They're also the kind of miracles that actually do occur, and far more often than a lot of people would ever imagine.

Most of us know the being in a situation when there's little left to do but hope for a miracle is an awful place to be, but that hoping (or praying) for a miracle is sometimes all we can do. Most of us (at least those who've lived a little while) have seen how, sometimes, miracles do seem to happen. That makes hoping for one still having reason for hope. Sometimes, hope and strength are, in themselves, a form of miracle.
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paarsurreyposted 13 years ago
“Miracles are not seen in Islam as unnatural occurrences, but as natural phenomena that are concealed from human knowledge at that period of time. Otherwise, there would be many questions raised against the wisdom of God. If God created the laws of nature Himself, He should have made some provisions whereby without breaking them, He could bring about desired solutions to a problem.”
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/ch … ter_1.html
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aka-djposted 13 years ago
I'm curious Winston, what would your conclusion be, if you applied this rule to the original advent of life, on Earth?

Which is the greater miracle, that a "supernatural being (God)" created it by using excellent power wisdom and knowledge, OR that it happened by accident from "dead, inanimate" matter?

Then, discard the greater miracle.

I know which I'd choose, and still be true to this principle.
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  wildernessposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  miracle one: A supernatural being (God), existing in a separate universe from ours and using different natural laws, created our universe because he wanted new servants.
  
  Miracle two: the forces of nature operated to create our universe from unliving matter and energy.
  
  Yes, I know which one I would use and which I would discard.
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  aka-djposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ahh, so you agree with me, then? GOOD.
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  AKA Winstonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Although we cannot reproduce abiogenesis, we do know that existence exists and that natural phenomenon exist. We have zero evidence of any god or gods.
  
  By this comparison alone, reason selects door #1: it has to have occured naturally and the odds were 100% because here we are.
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  aka-djposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Both scenarios require faith, for them to be accepted.
  Welcome to the real world.
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  AKA Winstonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  (Both scenarios require faith, for them to be accepted.)
  
  aka-dj
  
  No, they don't.
  
  One is based on extrapolation of the known. It is based on reason.
  The other is a belief that Santa Claus brings presents. It is based on hope.
  
  If you don't understand that belief in any god is no different than belief in Santa Claus I really feel for you - you have to be intellectually challenged or in dire psychological need of belief to claim otherwise.
  
  It requires no faith to understand that the airplane crashing into the World Trade Center at 500 mph will cause death and massage damage.
  
  To think that flying the plane will get you to heaven and 72 virgins is religious belief.
  
  They are not equal.
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  aka-djposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, I see.
  
  You think I'm a Muslim.
  
  Where did you get that idea?
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Wow. I'm impressed with you. That was pretty condescending and you responded with grace. I guess you have experience dealing with legends in their own minds. I want to be like you when I grow up.
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  AKA Winstonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  (You think I'm a Muslim)
  
  aka-dj,
  
  What does that have to do with anything in my response? Are you punching at me with a strawman? Try again.
  
  Nature is fact.
  God is faith.
  
  Fact and faith are not equals And that you can believe.
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  aka-djposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It has everything to do with it.
  Virgins in heaven is a Muslim teaching. There is no straw man.
  
  Nature is fact. (yes it is. it's beginning/creation is NOT. It's a faith position either way!)
  God is faith. (yes it is. Just because you choose to dismiss this, it doesn't make it so)
  
  So you are correct, but you are also incorrect.
  Whatever your (or anyone else"s hypothesis/theory), it HAS to be accepted by faith. No FACTS are established. They're are merely supposed. Mere conjectures.
  
  We, sir, are ALL creatures of faith. It's the object of faith that differs!
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  AKA Winstonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  aka-dj,
  
  This isn't that hard to understand. Any naturalistic explanation automatically has a higher degree of probability than a supernatural explanation because we know that nature exists.
  
  When you come out of the store to find a new dent in your car you don't think, God is pissed at me. No, you think some jerk backed into you and pulled off.
  
  The difference isn't faith - it is reason.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Since the people who wandered in the wilderness were protected of God.
  Deuteronomy 29:5 And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot.
  
  One might consider that the dent in the car is a test to gauge a reaction
  
  Otherwise, the dent would not have occurred. This may not be an accurate example but i challenge you to stretch your imagination beyond your limitations and digest this for yourself.
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  AKA Winstonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I challenge you to separate fantasy from reality and come to realize that your imaginary god is all in your head, that your holy book is a collection of legends from a primitive tribe of desert wanderers and to still believe today that this wandering tribe of Jews was somehow the chosen people of a supernatural being because that was the Jewish mythology is just plain dumb.
  
  To ponder that the dent in the car is anything but a dent in the car caused by a jerk who backed into it is dangerously close to the type of mental instability that was shown by David Koresh and Jim Jones.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  God uses the humble and even the lame to do his work. I challenge you to tread carefully when you try to bully your opinions.
  
  obviously you missed the point of my last post.. kinda pissed ya off huh.
  
  when you get off the ropes on this one too... feel free to say something
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  aka-djposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I hear ya. BUT, we are NOT talking about a dent in my car.
  
  When was the last time you experienced anything inanimate come to life?
  
  I venture to say NEVER
  
  I always refer to something appearing out of nothing as a miracle (creation).
  And, life NEVER..did you read that?. NEVER. Life NEVER comes from NON-life.
  You can evolutionize it anyway you want. It aint possible.
  
  I have been fishing for over 50yrs, and have not once seen, or caught a fish that had legs instead of fins. They all died out of the water. NOT ONE grew lungs. I have never seen a chicken breed and produce a duck.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What makes you think there was nothing dj?
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  aka-djposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It's a commonly held view by the scientific community that space and matter are not eternal.
  Therefore, it came from ?????
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Let me get this straight. You think there was nothing because the scientific community holds the view that space and matter are not eternal?
  
  Now answer the question.
  
  What makes you think there was nothing?
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  aka-djposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I believe this view to be in line with my own.
  
  I have no reason to doubt it.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So - why do you think this?
  
  And how very funny that you doubt everything else that science says about how we came to be.
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  aka-djposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Because there is another alternate possibility, which I highly favour.
  
  There are some things that are unknown. Some things may NEVER be known. Till they are revealed, discovered or resolved, I can hold that view as rigorously as anyone else holds the opposing one(s).
  
  There is, however, just this one little "spanner in the works". Jesus Christ.
  
  I just happen to believe in Him, what He said, and Who He claimed to be.
  If I never had an encounter with Him, that radically changed my life forever, I recon I could easily be persuaded to be like you.
  
  But that horse has bolted. It aint going back, trust me.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Still not answering the question dj. Just repeating your delusions.
  
  Why do you think there was nothing?
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  aka-djposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What answer do you want?
  
  Things were created out of NO things. Not nothingness, or total emptiness.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I asked why you think there was nothing. Sorry - was I not clear?
  
  What makes you think there was nothing?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Wow. Are you all scared of this question?
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, hold that favored view, just like they held the view the earth was the center of the universe and was flat.
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  AKA Winstonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  We know that matter exists, separated by space. There are only two explanations for this fact: either matter and space are eternal, meaning they have always been in one form or another, or a magical power created something out of nothing, which you say is impossible but happened.
  
  You and brotheryochanan both do such excellent jobs of proving my points I have little to add. One either uses adult reasoning to come to a rational conclusion or one uses a child's hope to believe in magic.
  
  Magic like magical seer stones, magical flying horses, or magical resurrection from the dead.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The earth is the center of the universe and is flat, too.
  
  I've never seen those things either. In fact, there is only one way something like that could happen; a miracle. Don't you believe in miracles, aka?
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Midianiteposted 13 years ago
There's no such thing as a miracle : )
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brotheryochananposted 13 years ago
"Hume used both natural laws and human experience as his guage for miracles, noting that iron does not float in midair, that wood burns, and that no one has seen a truly dead man arise from his grave and live again".

Natural laws... God placed all nature under rules. Not laws. Man calls them laws but really they are just rules or guidelines. God is able to change the rules if and when he wants.

Human experience... did not decide to circle jericho 7xs then yell and blow trumpets at the walls to destroy them, human experience did not part seas or any of the other miracles in the BIBLE. Human experience is unable to discern spiritual things because it is limited to its carnality and finite mental thinking.

Iron in the bible floated to the top of water
A bush burnt but did not consume itself
People have been raised from the dead (lazarus for ONE) and in the end we are all resurrected for judgement into eternal life or damnation.

So how you expected Hume to be comparable to BIBLE is beyond me, least of all a standard for miracles. Hume was unable to identify with miracles because He was not able to allow for them by his own carnality and limited thinking.
Hume fails and so therefore do his followers. Find another god to put on your pedestal, who doesn't contradict the bible.
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  AKA Winstonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  (Iron in the bible floated to the top of water
  A bush burnt but did not consume itself
  People have been raised from the dead (lazarus for ONE)
  
  brotheryochanan,
  
  So you admit that the bible has nothing to do with reality. Good for you! You are making some progress.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  like i say, when you get off the ropes feel free to actually say something.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  LOL! Essentially, the argument resorts to the usual, "god did it" and we all fail because of our limited thinking in that regard.
  
  Brilliant argument.
  
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  and you are limited. You follow the doctrines of man and adopt his limited thinking.
  You are bound and limited to what you see, hear and touch and a few theories of some carnal scientists.
  
  This is the wrong ammo to bring into a christian conversation. Since christians are not limited by natural law or the things of this world - including especially the doctrines and theories of limited man... you will always discover that God has done and rebuked all the things that limited man can think of or see or touch. God has gone beyond natural laws and God lives beyond all that limited man can imagine.
  
  Brilliant management
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  AKA Winstonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  (christians are not limited by natural law or the things of this world)
  
  Don't kid yourself.
  
  Everyone is limited by natural laws - the only thing different about Christians are their delusions. When Christians jump off 10-story buildings, they splat just as loud as anyone else.
  
  At some point protestations of faith cross the line into nutcase moronicity, and when you start claiming Christians can fly I'd say you're about two hours north of the Mason-Dixon line.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  i'd consider it a miracle if christchurch, NZ was suddenly put together and all those killed in the earthquake came back to life & health. Ain't gonna happen
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  thatll teach em to outlaw kosher LOL
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  AKA Winstonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Has your delusion led you into such a twisted and perverse insanity that you find human tragedy amusing? Your God is a delusion, Bubba, as real as the demon I unleashed in your closet just a minute ago. Don't worry about that rattle you hear - it will die down - eventually - probably just a rat. And all beds shake a little - at first. Nothing to fret about.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  and your wanting to see something like this is dangerously close to maniacal. I will agree that everyone is governed by physical rules but we are talking about the power of God and that is not limited. Silver and gold have i none but such as i have i give thee.. rise up and walk.. acts 4.
  
  Your limitations are exactly just that, limitations.
  
  Perhaps you did not like to include that a christian may survive an accidental fall and an unsaved man may not. Perhaps God would not even have the christian near the fall point at all, but the unsaved guy thought what a nice
  v
  i
  e
  w
  splat!
  so limited in thinking; there are endless possibilities to God protective power and i believe that shoe makers were not a productive trade in the wilderness
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  AKA Winstonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Children also have endless possibilities of the imagination, and I did, too, when I was a child.
  
  But when I became a man, I put away childish things.
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paarsurreyposted 13 years ago
What is your standard for belief in a miracle?

“Miracles are not seen in Islam as unnatural occurrences, but as natural phenomena that are concealed from human knowledge at that period of time. Otherwise, there would be many questions raised against the wisdom of God. If God created the laws of nature Himself, He should have made some provisions whereby without breaking them, He could bring about desired solutions to a problem.”

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/ch … ter_1.html
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Micky Deeposted 13 years ago
Having no waiting line at the Department of Transportation. An honest politician. An honest lawyer. An honest voter. Having a slice of toast with butter and jam fall face up onto the floor. A friendly divorce.
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yeh Mickey Dee!
  Those'd be real miracles!
  2 thumbs up! :
  Qwark
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NateSeanposted 13 years ago
To me a miracle is something so profound and so utterly life changing, that you don't feel the need to prove to anyone else that it happened by Divine consequence. You're simply happy that it happened to you.
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What is your standard for belief in a miracle?

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