Jesus said Hell was real, said it was forever, and said we could escape it through believing in Him and putting the will of God first.
If there is no such thing as an eternal Hell, why would Jesus teach it, and then go on to say that He is the only way to the Father and that He must die on the cross in order to fulfill the law completely?
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
And one more note:
If Jesus didn't mean for us to understand it as eternal, then why the repeated "everlasting fire" and "everlasting punishment" and so forth. He even made it clear it was so important that it would be better to MAIM yourself and SEVERE LIMBS than to go to Hell.
who was jesus?...a man who was convinced about various concepts like heaven , hell , god ...he died for his convictions and even today there are many people who die for their beliefs...it is human nature that when it reaches to point of conviction it stands for it no matter what...that doesnot make conviction to be truth ...does it?...it is their truth and they have right to believe in it...there have been many who died for their conviction before jesus and many after jesus and many would come in future too...
You are wrong, Jesus is more than man and did not just die for His convictions. In John 3:16 the Bible says "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
hey i am not asking what is written is scripture which is just one of that...if one believes in x scripture by same logic one must believe in y scripture ..and there are 400 religions on earth , all have written doc for them...stop quoting from scriptures and talk about history...
His post is relevant.
Why do you feel so controlling as to tell him what to do?
Since when did everyone have to follow your personally made rules anyhow?
i dont mind anyone believing in any tales as long as they dont sell it as truth because if they do , they must be ready to listen to others truth (like islam or jews or no god)...it is as simple as that...
Indeed. It is as simple as that!
No one said anything about your believing anything.
I asked why you felt the need to tell him:
"stop quoting from scriptures and talk about history..."
I am listening. However you are telling people what not to post.
I see a blatant contradiction here.
well if any one can come out here and quote from whatever he/she thinks is correct , i have right to express myself...dont i?...secondly there is no contradiction...i asked him to quote from history...scriptures are too many and not accepted as historical docs...they are mere references for history and all scriptures say many things...i wanted to have discussion based on history...what is wrong in that?...i dont understand this , i am sorry...i disagree with you on your willingness to listen to others...
".scriptures are too many and not accepted as historical docs."
That is off the charts incorrect information..
The Bible is the most well kept set of HISTORICAL DOCUMENTS known to mankind.
http://carm.org/can-we-trust-new-testam … l-document
Non-biased sources. Both sides. And that's just a few...
You can tell that ridiculous non-researched mess to someone who hasn't done their homework.
first when was bible written?..when jesus lived or when he was died?...second who saw jesus coming back first...the lady or someone else?...third for how many years did jesus preach?...2 , 3 or 10?...where was jesus for decade which period is mostly unrecorded?...
read this too my friend :
"No one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts. All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people. There occurs no contemporary Roman record that shows Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus. Devastating to historians, there occurs not a single contemporary writing that mentions Jesus. All documents about Jesus came well after the life of the alleged Jesus from either: unknown authors, people who had never met an earthly Jesus, or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical writings. Although one can argue that many of these writings come from fraud or interpolations, I will use the information and dates to show that even if these sources did not come from interpolations, they could still not serve as reliable evidence for a historical Jesus, simply because all sources about Jesus derive from hearsay accounts."
calling my comments as ridiculous is your religious right and i dont object to that...every religious person has time and again forgotten jesus's message of treating others like he wants himself to be treated...bible is not important jesus as human was...bible was written after jesus was gone and jesus's presence had too little write up other than in bible...there are two possibilities of it...either jesus was not very popular which most historians agree that he was not as popular as john in his life time or jesus didnot exist...
personally i believe jesus did exist...but not every historian agrees to me...
"calling my comments as ridiculous is your religious right "
Has nothing to do with me believing in the Bible as the word of God.
It has to do with the fact that the Bible is made up of historical documents.
The illiad and other historical writings of the sort have only a few copies and are considered very accurate. Just a FEW copies.
The New Testament ALONE has over 22,000 copies of historical documents.
Yet some anti-Christ... Christian hating people want to try to discount 22,000 copies of information as unreliable because it doesn't fit what they want to believe and they teach in some college?
That's pathetic. The illiad has less than 10 copies and it's reliable verses 22,000 copies that the New Testament has and it's supposedly unreliable.. Utter nonsense. That's some made up crap from people who don't like what they see.
I just don't like facts being covered up or changed because of an opinion. I've done my share of research and the "Bible" is completely accurate and reliable no matter what anyone wants.
I love ya pisean. Just know it's an accurate historical document. Verified tried and true. I don't make stuff up.
because those anti christ people are pro jesus...christ is later creation...jesus was human being who did exist and calling him god or son of god is infact taking his greatness away...if jesus was god whats the big deal is getting nailed?...it is simple stuff...for human it is great...for god it is not...it is child's play...
coming to history...who wrote bible?...jesus didnt and human beings who called themself as his followers wrote that...where they real beings? yes...did they have knowledge of what is going around in their era ?..yes...did they have hearsay knowledge about previous era?...yes...so in that context bible can be said as containing historical facts as well as myths like adam/eve/ age of earth and so on which those writers could not verify themselves and took it from hearsay...
it is like slumday millionare movie...does India has tajmahal yes...does India has mumbai yes...do India has who wants to become millionare...yes...does that make those characters who feature in film as real one?..NO.
history states jesus existed ...preached and had independent movement...he was tried of sedition and killed...after that it is different speculations...Islam says he didnt die on cross and was taken directly to heaven by god and they have scriptures to support that..they have empty tomb to state that...Christians believe christ came back...Ahamadis believed christ got saved and travelled to India and they too have buddist docs to support that claim...only my book is truth is what all these people claim but history doesnot claim so other than few historians trying to impose christ on world as god ...there is debate over historical jesus....
for e.g. how do we know that martin luther king existed?...only based on usa docs?...well no...we have many supporting documents for the same...how do we know cleopatra existed?...there has to be sufficient documents , letter, some manuscripts, some physical things , something more solid than that ...
p.s. your similes are irritating...you may not be intending it but i find it rude...
Question was about His meaning of Hell anyway. Not questioning who Jesus was.
Every last word of that is irrelevant to the thread.
Yes, one man's convictions aren't necessarily another man's beliefs so when Jesus dies on the cross for the sins of mankind, that was his belief in a God who said that he had to do that.
Another person will believe in a different concept of the idea of a God and that of hell if they believe in such concepts.
Nope - just checked.
Still not scared enough to believe this nonsense.
Sorry. You must be very angry with me. Do you want to MAIM me?
And it is "sever".
Ah yes. thank you for the correction. Not too familiar with the word. Glad someone in that field of expertise could help.
My pleasure. I do make sure to use words accurately and also spell them correctly. This helps prevent conflict and mis-understandings. I know this is not something most religious people are concerned with, but I tend to be honest and in favor of clear communication. I have morals after all.
I will continue to correct you when you mistakenly use words like "LOVE" out of their correct meaning in that case.
We are in hell and Jesus's philosophy is the same as Hindu philosophy.
Paradise or heaven or salvation is with god, the light.
Its about breaking the cycle of life and death.
ya but it is just philosophy...
Hi Mohit - you been hiding?
Good to see Ya ..
Simple words of wisdom become complicated as time passes.
Don't know why ? It just seems as though we make it happen that way.
We see why you don't believe in God. You try really hard not to.
Even Jesus' enemies say He existed.
Goodness. People don't even look..
vector7 Even Jesus' enemies say He existed.
and Satan too
the issue of his existence is not in doubt. history itself accepts that.
yes it does as human being who died on cross because of sedition...that is history ...rest of whether he was god or son of god or mere human is all debatable...for history jesus existed as preacher who was bapitized by john and who started independent movement after john's death...that is historical jesus ...
Why would Paul in Corinthians tell kings and rulers that could chop his head clean off with a snap of their fingers, that there are 500 people still alive that they could go question who seen Jesus after He was crucified, resurrected and alive?
If what Paul told those men in power was a lie, they would have cleaned his clock right there on an oak stump... And Paul knew it.
You don't go lying to kings and rulers about 500 people seeing a man that came back to life that the Jews, who held a lot of power too, hated with a passion.
The whole New Testament makes sense.
The disciples sure didn't steal the body of Jesus and the Jews admitted the tomb was empty, and so did Caesar's soldiers... How would the disciples - FISHERMEN - Sneak a group of highly trained military guards from an army that overtook most of the known world?
Those guards were on grounds of death if anyone got in the tomb... And the guards completely left their post.. I'm pretty sure at least two of the guards were executed. Caesar didn't play when it came to military...
And it goes on, and on, and on.... The accounts wrote are true. Always have been. They're just hard to believe....
Is there an Election coming ?
'Cos this looks just like an Advert on behalf of the Christian Party to me !
For true political balance can we please have one on behalf of the Lions !
There is no such thing as hell. Jesus made all that crap up. And, apparently, someone manufactured Jesus, as well.
A sucker is born every minute.
if Jesus was manufactured up then every other person history talks about was made up too. maybe Caesar never existed. who was King Henry? how do we know Shakespear actually wrote all those works attributed.
What a ridiculous statement to make, clearly you have little or no understanding of the meaning of history, what is and is not a historical fact and how these facts can be substantiated.
Like everything else in life there are many versions of truth and history the great thing in history there is usually at least two versions that of the winner and that of the loser. Within these two versions we can establish what actually happened.
Then we have the forensic evidence of archaeology to give us further understanding of the situation, with these tools and information we have travelled back to the past so YES we know who King Henry was ... all eight of them! We know who Caesar was, I assume you meant Julius, there were others, we know where he lived who his enemies were, his conquests, his visit to Britain and how, where and when he died. All recorded and verified by different independent historical accounts.
This type of verifiable historic and forensic evidence is not available for your Jesus Christ, Not his real name by the way, which makes it harder to establish if he did actually exist at all. It has been proved that the Bible is not an accurate historical document and much of its contents are plagiarised from other stories from around the region.
What we do know from real historical records that during the time period that the Jewish nation was desperate for a Messiah to rise and free them from Roman oppression and there were quite a few candidates wandering around making claims to be the one. Whether one of them claiming the title The Christ was your man is uncertain and certainly unsubstantiated.
Was someone fitting the description and claiming to be the Messiah crucified by the Romans... probably. Anyone who pushed themselves forward and appeared as a political agitator would most certainly gain the attention of the Romans as a potential ‘Pain in the Ass’ and would be dealt with accordingly.
There is little significance in crucifixion as the choice of execution, it was quite a popular Roman method of; a) getting rid of a threat to law and order, and b) sending a message to all around ‘You could be next !”
Hundreds if not thousands of people were crucified by the Romans it was a way of eradicating those considered pests. 9 out of 10 were never named or recorded such was their insignificance to the Romans.
All the rest is made up for whatever purpose no one knows, why it has any bearing on anything outside the region of its conception beggars belief but that too can be laid at the feet of the Romans in the form of Emperor Constantine.
That’s if you believe actual historical fact, of course or have ever read a history book !
Talk it away buddy. You've sculpted up a nice anti-Christ sermon there... As if your the first one to come up with such notions. Scholars have been through all that crap your trying to spread. Keep up the good work. The masses will follow you with pleasure...
And I've read much better than history books.
Here's just two links for some starters. Maybe doing more than just listening to biased college professors would prove useful...
By the way.. Gossip spreads like wildfire. Same goes with that kind of factually absent run on sentence you have up there.
http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/eas … josh2.html
Care to name any credible scholars who dispute my historical findings ?
Who are these people who claim the bible is a Historical document and can provide one ounce of substiated proof of its historical accuracy ?
What point are you attemting to make that because there are more copies of the New Testament than the Illiad that this makes the New Testament Fact ?
Based upon that theory that makes the Adventures of Harry Potter more True because there are millions of copies of them around...
Get a grip... Since when did quantity take over from quality as a measure of anything ?
@merlin who knows harry potter may turn out to be god after 2,3,4k years...
I would imagine to many kids today he already is...
Can't see it happening myself not as long as he has a ginger headed friend lacks crediblity don't you think !
However, you could be right, look what two thousand years of distortion of mythical stories has acheived thus far.
1 John 2:22
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
Say what you want. As far as I'm concerned, to you, nothing happened in history worth basing truth on. Your claims are absurd.
You can throw bogus claims and ridiculous 'conspiracy' ideas out all you want. Shedding doubt is wonderfully easy to do. Just come up with a few ideas and let the gossip run.
What you do, and those like you, is no different than those high school girls in the corner making up little stories to tell.
There's no sense in even attempting to argue with you. Your points above hold no more claim to truth than does Mickey Mouse or Snow White.
With comments like:
"All the rest is made up for whatever purpose no one knows..."
You let your imagination run....
And so therefore, it will continue to run and run and run.. Just like a childs.
19 "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."
Claiming for no reason documents were just 'made up' would be a personal distortion on your account. As if you have more authority than the thousands and thousands of people who claim witness prior to you.
1 John 2:22
Go and re-read the original Greek text, there is one more negative!
1 John 2:22
22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.
There's is an up to date non-KJV Scholar approved interpretation straight from the greek text.
Unsure of your meaning.
"Who is the liar
if not the one who denies that
Jesus is not the Christ"
1Jn 2:22 τις εστιν ο ψευστης ει μη ο αρνουμενος οτι ιησους ουκ εστιν ο χριστος ουτος εστιν ο αντιχριστος ο αρνουμενος τον πατερα και τον υιον (Greek)
I meant the original not your translations!
Can we do it in Latin also?
1Jn 2:22 quis est mendax nisi is qui negat quoniam Iesus non est Christus hic est antichristus qui negat Patrem et Filium
Now you interpret it and tell us what it says so you can't say we are biased.
Frankly, I am tired of being accused of lying all the time.
the original available is Greek. it was translated to Latin by Jerome at the instruction of Damascus I an usurper!!
Ignore him SirDent.. Desperation leads to all sorts of unreasonable and foolish arguments.
the historical Jesus is proven to exist besides the bible. that is a fact historians accept. I'd be foolish to say mohammed didn't exist besides the koran. the rest is a thing of faith. how much of history did you actually read?
Nonsense. There is no such proof. Where do you get your history? Sunday school?
No wonder your religion causes so many wars.
how much of history did you read?
is your last sentence how you always end a discussion?
I was not ending the discussion, I was making an observation.
I see you did not answer the question though.
Little wonder your religion causes so many wars.
still finishing with the same sentence. its kind of boring and predictable. controversies exist i accept. there are still historical writings that mention him. rem his first followers weren't the elite per say. anyway no matter what i say or what either of us believes the truth will eventually be known.
no gem ....jesus has almost no historical writeup supporting his existence other than bible ...hardly one or two and that too are hearsay...as historian out here said jesus was not even his name...jesus is mere 400 year old name is what some historians suggest...jesus as god or son of god is ideal which humans created....jesus as person (though by other name) must have exist is what my personal opinion is...though he was mere a man...but in end it doesnot matter whether jesus existed or not as long as ideal is hold up to....
Still parroting the same lie I see? No controversy exists. By and large ( a few religious zealots aside) historians agree there is basically no evidence this man existed. There are absolutely no contemporary references - although I may hove found one obscure one - and any references later were doctored by Christian "historians."
"It has served us well, this myth of Christ."
Pope Leo X
No wonder your religion causes so many conflicts. I will stop saying it when you stop doing it. Deal?
wow a change or really the same thing just in different words.
thanks for trying
Over your head? OK - did god dunnit then?
Soz wot u sed god sed is garbage, innit.
Trollin trollin trollin. I int blame yer - u is just doin wot Jeebus dun sed init.
Not surprising your religion has caused 2000 years of wars,
No deal then? U spred it - I sez it? Innit.
1 John 2:22
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
You sure are a persistent little anti-Christ mini-me..
Oh yes - I know you Christians consider me to be a liar and evil. You have been telling me this my whole life. Odd that you think I am the one to throw the first stone when the stone was thrown even before I was born.
This is why your religion causes so many wars.
No one told you to go telling everyone we were liars. You had the option of be and let be. But no. You come into a thread about what Christ Jesus' words meant and attempt to undermine Him.
Sorry. Your on my side of the fence spreading lies. Not the other way around.
No wonder you little anti-Christs cause so much conflict..
still the same boring words. how much war. the ones where they were burnt, hung on the tree, fed to the lions cos they refused to bow to the opinions of the powers ruling at the time
No deal then? You will continue to spout god's word and provoke people into "persecuting" you, by shoving your irrational beliefs at them. No matter how often you are asked to stop it. Is it that you don't care, or that you like being "persecuted."?
Is it my fault? For not listening to god's word?
Odd you will not accept this deal. None of you ever do. But - I promise - you stop spreading your religion - I stop telling you it is nonsense. Why don't you want to end the conflict?
This is the reason your religion causes so many conflicts.
The papacy has long been established as the seat of the current age anti-Christ.. Wonders you would quote from it.
No wonder you repeat your bogus anti-Christ remarks. Your friends are those of the papacy..
Christ Jesus is Lord. Period.
Jesus has not been proven to have been the son of God, sorry.
and it cannot be proven till the end. christianity has never said it could prove that
How convenient is that ?
It's like the lie of eternal life after death as a reward for the ever faithful...Knowing full well that no one is going to come back and refute the claim as false.
Got to hand it to the Early Christians if you're gonna lie make it a bigone ... and one that can never be challenged or dis proven... GO CHRISTIANS ! And it still works...
Wow ! Trouble is it Kinda makes a mockery of our Evolution to become a more intellegent species don't you think ?
really convenient if its a lie. but boy if its true...........
I doubt your childish fear tactics will work against people who are not weak-minded...but you can succumb to irrational fear if you so desire.
No one wants to scare you. Your with that group who thinks we want to.
I teach Christ Jesus crucified, that all men might be saved. Nothing scary about Jesus' humble outstretched arm.
If your afraid, or are offended, it's from your own conscience.. Not from anyone else friend.
How in the world can you "teach" anything about that which you "KNOW" nothing about?
You "KNOW" absoutely nothing about this jesus person...and that's a fact!
You poor thing. You hate me not arguing with you huh?
I love ya Qwark..
Hate is a waste of emotion.
I feel "disgust" when I ask a believer, to sit down with me, like this alledged jesus person would have, and prove his love for me by taking the time to logically and rationally answer my questions about his beliefs.
You see, so many like yourself, "profess" to be "christians," but when the time comes that they are seriously "challenged" in ref to why they believe, they do the unchristian thing and ignore or turn away from an opportunity to sit, chat and get to know another good person and offer their reasons.
Your attitude of passionate rejection and an "I love you" when you respond, is indicative, to me, that you are unprepared to respond and are just a simple minded, ignorant follower.
You, certainly, are not a "christian thinker," who has done his homework, has his "ducks-in-a-row" and is willing and able to. "knowledgeably,' lovingly and respectfully, respond when queried about his religious beliefs.
No Vec, I am hard to anger.
When and if I should get angry, step back! I'd be a very dangerous person to approach...:
You need an "attitude" change."
Go to your nearest bar and have a beer with a good friend. You'll be better for it :
Have a great Sunday! :
You DO want to scare people. That's the way you acquire more weak followers. Stop being dishonest.
With you teaching this kind of absurd dishonesty, it is no wonder all the thinking people on this forum are vehemently oppsed to you.
No it is not scary. But that was not what was stated before. But I know it's "honorable" to lie when pushing your foolsih beliefs. I could not stoop to the immoral levels of your beliefs...friend.
You wouldn't see the truth if it slapped you and took you hostage.
You've no sooner looked into the reality of Christ Jesus than has Adolf Hitler....
Bunch of happy-go-lucky little anti-Christs trying to spread some retarded false idea that Christ doesn't exist.
Actually I am a historian !
And No, outside biblical text there is no actual proof of Jesus, as I said earlier it wasn't even his real name.
I don't dispute the existence of Mohammed either, I do however dispute that he or anyone else is a messenger from a nonexistent supreme being !
I dispute that anyone is the messenger of a non existent entity also. Jesus is the Son of the Most High. He does exist even if you don't believe it.
and he wont become son of god just because you believe so...for me he existed , was mere man
what either of us believes does not change anything. but lets see if what you believe is true what have i lost in comparison to what you'd lose if what i believe is true
However, scientific experimentation and observation has caused religions to re-interpret their nonsense...which, to me, is change...but you will keep believing anyway---no matter how many changes take place---Disturbing.
TIRED, fear mongering nonsense.
@gem nothing...i wont loose anything...i dont live my life to be in good books of what you call as god...i live my life as per my conscience and i dont care whether your god likes it or not...
OK Everybody take cover...
Here Comes Sir Dent on his noble steed Blind Faith leaving the horizon of reality far behind never letting facts distort the fiction of faith...
Am I the only one who thinks that if I were a Fair Maiden in distress and Sir Dent was riding to my rescue... I'd commit suicide !
Militant atheism? Why even answer if all you can do is ridicule? Can't stay on topic? Try taking a deep breath or two before posting.
I'm sorry if it upsets you but previous to your arrival here I had made one or two serious points and was asking for actual historical proof of Jesus.
Then in you ride spouting your usual “It's all true” rhetoric. If historians, scientists and archaeologist make a statement you and your kind are among the first to shout Foul and demand proof, yet when ask for the same all we get is the same old smoke screen blown in our faces.
You accuse me of not staying on Topic... do you even know what the topic actually is ? Have you any real actual historical proof that Jesus Christ existed ?
No double talk, no Biblical quotes... just a straight answer to a straight question prove to me with hard evidence from sources other than the Bible that Christ is who you think he is ....
Either answer the question straight or leave the arena of discussion.
It doesn't upset me. What I see when I read your posts is that you are a drama queen. You are not the only one there is that posts here. You use term like Sky fairies, sky daddy, and you refer to God as a non entity. In other words, you poison the water and ridicule when people refuse to drink it.
Tacitus wrote about Jesus, Pliny the younger wrote about Jesus. Jocephus wrote about Jesus. None were believers. None added to the Bible. Of course you have heard this before and the generic answer has already been provided you by the resident atheists.
No wonder your non belief causes so much conflict. Everything is handed to you on a platter.
Nice Sir Dent... Before I could even break out the secular writers.. We have another Soldier of Christ...
Keepin the faith alive.
Let me see if I get this right you sight Pliny the Younger as proof of Christ existence. Is this the same Pliny the Younger that was born in 61 AD, some 30 years after you claim the same Christ was supposedly crucified by the Romans.
The same Pliny the Younger who wrote a letter in 106 AD to the Roman Emperor saying things like “...the contagion of this superstition has spread not only to the cities but also to the villages and farms...” I think you will find he was discussing Christians not Jesus Christ, and asking what to do with them....!
Again when you mention Tacitus you refer to someone born way after the event, and offer him as proof of the existence of Christ. Tacitus wasn’t born until 56 AD and yet again any reference he made in his writings were about the Christians and what a pain they were.
Most historical scholars are well aware that early Christian writers sought to establish the historicity of Jesus via secular or non-Christian documents and offered their own interpretation of some of Tacitus’s writing. However, other translations of the same work differ wildly from the Christian version. When challenged on this there is usually just silence which may suggest that the passage did not exist in early manuscripts. Add to this that the earliest surviving manuscript containing the passage is an 11th century Christian scribal copy, skeptics of the passage's authenticity argue that it may be the result of later Christian editing.
The only thing this proves is that Christianity has been around for a long time which, is not a point in dispute, but by all means keep trying if you dig up and actually read the evidence you bring to the table trying to prove your point I think you will discover the only point you will make is mine !
However, I grant you are making progress, with Tacitus and Pliny the younger, you are at least talking about real people for a change.
Putting it the way you did about Pliny the younger, I could say that Charles Darwin did not exist. No one alive today has seen him or talked with him. All you have are the books he wrote or some claim that he wrote.
The point is that you asked for non biblical sources, though I did not list their writings, I did list some who wrote about Jesus.
Do you reject what they wrote as being fact?
Read the books/ letters neither wrote about Jesus, they wrote about the problems the Christians were causing.
This proves the Christians existed not Jesus, certainly not by anything they wrote.
As for denying Darwin existed, that ewally is clutching at straws...
I'm happy to acknowledge that Pliny and Tacitus both existed and are real people. Same way as I acknowledge that two thousand odd years ago there were several people wandering around proclaiming to be the Messiah one of whom may actually be the one you claim to be following.
What I disput is the son of God rubbish...
You haven't posted any facts.
Maybe you could post them now.
Eventhough He never answers prayers, cannot be detected by scientific instruments, and for all account, exhibits the very same attributes of 'NOTHING' you believe He exists...this shows how blind believer's faith is. But DO keep believing, because God needs your tithes
never answers prayers?????????????????how would you know?
I'm a born-again Christian. And I have been praying since I was about 8 years old. To this date, I can't truly verify that any of my prayers have been granted. Of ourse, people like you prefer to use wishful thinking, instead of experimentation, to determine that prayers have been answered, but, if you were honest, you would accept that that is no different from mere coincidence, and psychosis.
How do you know He never answers prayers? Did science invent a God detector recently? I hadn't heard about it.
There is an equal amount of evidence to suggest prayers do get answered as there is for prayers that don't get answered; which is none at all.
In other words, SirDent, our reality governs us over our need to believe that it does not, and the two are indistinguishable from one another.
I have been praying since I was 8. Not one of my prayers can be verified to have been answered BY GOD.
They did, and it was determined that NO GOD was detected by the highly accurate detector, hence your God is a fraud, and those promoting His existence, in the face of this finding, are so disturbed that they have chosen to abdicate their minds, and accept a lie--and keep lying to themselves and others.
You HAVE heard of REALITY, but some people are just too dishonest to accept it. Your dishonesty is a sin...but as long as you lie for Jesus, it is RIGHTEOUS.
I should pray that you become an honest person...oh, I forgot, prayer doesn't work.
Can you verify that He didn't answer? Keep in mind that saying no is also an answer.
By what authority were these announcements made? Who made them? Who determined it to be right?
There is absolutely no possible way that science can say with absolute certainty that there is no God. God reveals Himself but cannot be found by a man.
Keep shooting arrows and accusing. I can take it.
Prayer is worthless if you do it for spite or without faith. If someone who fought against me all their life and did everything they could to destroy me, should I grant them anything they asked of me?
God feels the same way, but yet, if you ask for forgiveness, He will give it to you. He will make you a new creature. Just confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, and you shall be saved.
Spoken from a desperate delusional perspective...and nothing else. There is no such thing as 'saved' But there is psychosis.
Encouraging others to be psychotic can sometimes be viewed as offensive or insulting. Now do you see why your beliefs cause so many conflicts?
You know what. Call me when you can present your own thoughts.
That's the very reason you are angry: Because I have refused to allow you to think for me.
SirDent, by not allowing you to persuade me to believe in something that was dictated to you by dubious authors, and that reads just like a con job, I think I have presented my own thoughts.
You, on the other hand, have allowed ignorant, unknown goat herders from the distant past to do all of your thinking for you, making it impossible for you to discern right from wrong, or fiction from reality.
I'm sorry you can't see your dilemma.
So, when the tsunami that killed thousands was prayed to not occur, the answer was no? And, when the Jews prayed to their god to save them from the Nazi's, the answer was no?
You see, SirDent, you are presenting a logical fallacy that is rife with mountains of examples that would show answered prayers are indistinguishable from unanswered prayers.
Then, by your very own words, men have never found a god, hence how can they know gods exist. You present yet another logical fallacy.
Was prayer worthless when the tsunami came or when Hitler killed the Jews?
And yet, that has shown to not be true with mountains of examples, SirDent.
SirDent, Jesus exist even when others deny him.
Yes, I know. The sad thing is that the naysayers know it also. It doesn't bother them to lie and cause conflict.
1 Corinthians 1:22-23
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
The word of God has the answer to everything.
God bless you both for standing firm..
@gem muhammad didnt exist is false argument because there are tons and tons of proof about it...jesus is debatable...i personally think human being called jesus did exist but there is no 100% consensus of it among historians...while for muhammad there is no historian ever who doubted his existence...
TRUE...however, Caesar and Shakespeare were not alleged to have resurrected themselves, making their existence more probable. However when a person is alleged to have violated the laws of nature, it is more likely that a fraud has occured---would you not agree?
Sure... If the whole world had not went awol and everyone told everyone that it was real..
Christ Jesus is the most known name in the world. And for good reason. He is the Son of God.
Christ's followers had every reason in the world to deny Him if their claims were lies. Why would they risk their lives for a KNOWN LIE?
Maybe one nut job.. But hundreds of people?
Yeah. I think I'll go with the Lord of all creation who rose from the dead and His name spread like WILDFIRE because it was true.
Argue all you want, the only rational explanation for any of Christianity to exist today is that IT IS TRUE.
But you can walk down that road of denial if you'd like...
I'd give you an answer to your question, but all you will do is dismiss it.
Why would one think that this jesus ever lived?
Why would one think that this jesus ever died?
Why would one think that this jesus ever spoke a word?
Why would one think that one should even consider the subject of your post?
No one said you had to Qwark. Please disregard it and don't mind me or the post.
Love ya Quark..
That didn't answer all my question/s.
Are ya up to trying? Or are ya gonna leave it with just that reply?
If you do, it would leave alot to be desired in ref to your crediblity about this religious subject...:
My credibility is the Bible.
You may deny anything you want Qwark.
I've studied the bible and the history of man's religions and have yet to find anything credible to consider.
There is "absolutely" no definition of this biblical god in scriptures in a form other than opinion. "it" has to be imagined.
There is so little about this jesus mentioned in past history, in fact I don't remember reading anything about him in the best works of Roman history...and this jesus never wrote a word of the NT.
The word "know," in English means: "To perceive directly; grasp in the mind with clarity or certainty."
I said you don't "know" this jesus and that's a fact.
You "imagine" him to be true based on nothing but want and hope.
I have NP with you believing in myth as long as you don't try to pass what you "don't know," on. as being fact. :
No one is trying to tell you anything. I said your free to believe what you wish Qwark. Is there a problem with me freely speaking?
If you don't believe in Christ, then why are you in a forum that is questioning what Christ Jesus meant when He said something?
Maybe you don't seem to notice your attempting to push your thoughts onto me, as I've said clearly your free to ignore everything here.
I love you Qwark..
"If you don't believe in Christ, then why are you in a forum that is questioning what Christ Jesus meant when He said something?"
Why don't you "KNOW" Vec, that your jesus fellow never "said something?"
I'm just trying for the life of me to understand what it is about this alledged jesus person that makes people, like yourself, believe so fanatically in him when all the stories in the NT are pure heresay?
Can you explain that for me.
I can only presume that you have no answer for me.
If you did, you'd want to be more like the jesus you believe in and I studied to take the time to rationally and reasonably explain why you believe as you do, to one who questions your beliefs.
Isn't that true?
Evidently, it seems to me, you, obviously, aren't as "christian" as you claim to be.
You have a great day too. :
On the wrong side of the fence again Beelzebub?
Yes, we know you don't believe..
1 Corinthians 1:22-23
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
Wonderful to see you though.
With the amount of whoppers and fabrications coming from you, I would prefer this side of the fence anytime.
Is it god that makes you fabricate tales or do you do that on your own?
The fence.. Is a reference to this being a discussion on what Christ Jesus meant in His teaching of the above posted scriptures.
The scriptures of which you do not believe. So your purpose here must be something other than attempting to understand His words.
Maybe to impose your belief about the words of Christ towards Christians?
But isn't your purpose the same? He's simply an opposing view. Nothing wrong with that.
My purpose deals within the belief Christ. And I believe His words.
Do not come attempt to ridicule me. He has no intention but to throw doubt on the Word of God. Including Christ Jesus' words.
There's everything wrong with promoting man, and undermining God. Especially in a discussion forum that is specifically dealing with the belief of those words.
"Is it god that makes you fabricate tales or do you do that on your own?"
If you would like to claim his words on God or defend them, please state such outwardly.. Not under sly and meaningless questions..
37 "But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil."
Yes. There is something wrong with coming into a Christian forum with the sole intent to mock my God.
Hey. I wasn't looking for an argument. Simply stating fact. You are voicing an opinion. So is he. So is everyone else. If you want to claim divine rights that is your option. Doesn't make you right.
I have no divine right.
Do you see me in an atheist forum telling them evolution is retarded? I don't have the intent to "go" push my ideas in a "secular" forum.
This is not a thread asking, "Do you believe in God?"
I am right in saying I'm being ridiculed and your defending him as He mocks the God you say you claim. I'm used to his persecution, but your defense of it is outright absurdity. You must enjoy him demeaning God, or maybe you believe it's ok to persecute and mock people for believing in God. I don't know what you think. But your certainly not looking to serve God's will. You want to serve the common man. Including those who mock God, and spread lies.
I find doubt that you revere God very much at all.
I won't be answering any more of your posts. period.
Fine by me Vector. You don't answer posts anyway. You aren't interested in opposing views. You are looking for a forum to push your opinion. Just like he is. Which is good for people like me. It helps me see the insanity of such intolerance.
The words of your imaginary god are there for all to see and we can deal with them on a case by case study. That isn't the point, of course.
The point is how you come to these forums and fabricate stories, misinform and change facts to suit your religious agenda. If you were even the slightest bit honest in your posts, you might just have a shred of credibility, but at this point, you have none at all.
vector, You are right. I knew you would notice and catch on to it.
How brave of you Woman of Courage.
Not that you hide your real identity. LOL
I have never once mocked god. God does not exist. Please stop telling lies. I am pretty sure that is a burning offense.
Still - u r reely brave for saying this.
You mock our beliefs. As if you believe we don't deserve freedom. Maybe we don't deserve to live in peace? You think what your doing is peaceful? Mocking people is not peaceful or respectful.
Maybe you could start a forum for those who don't believe in God rather than coming here to mock me and WoC? Oh. You couldn't do that though because then you'd have no one to ridicule would you? You would actually have to think huh?
I find it pathetic you have nothing better to do. You cannot prove my God does not exist. And therefore cannot claim anything as lies. You haven't anything but "theories" yourselves..
You claim we came from monkeys.. Oh yes, I'm certain that sounds wonderful to people who act like them and needlessly chase around Christians because they have nothing better to do than ridicule us.
And she is very brave, for every time she posts - NO MATTER WHERE - There's little anti-Christ Mark and Beelzebub trying to make her look bad when she's done nothing but been kind to you. She doesn't deserve your crap. I wouldn't post my name either with you stalking her around the forums like you do. I'd be afraid you'd show up in a window.. Atheists in a Christian based forum.. What's the point? You think your going to change someone's mind or something? No.. You know your not.. You just want to be a prick.
The unkindness that you show is a telling tale of who you really are, and that you care about no one but yourselves.. Selfishness. As if you think the things you say about WoC are kind words....
Maybe your just not intelligent enough to talk about anything scientific or give any useful information in a scientific forum? Maybe you cling to religion because you just don't have the brains to keep up with those people in the forums that deal with what you claim.
You should get a hobby. But don't worry. I'm sure you won't. I know how little anti-Christ's work.. They claim evolution and deny God's existence..
But we all know you hate God. Otherwise you wouldn't chase us around. People only spend time on what's important to them. And you want God to disappear. If you really didn't think God existed, you wouldn't waste your time on it... But yes, we know better don't we?
Don't be silly. I would defend your freedom to believe what ever nonsense you wish to believe with my life. I woudl also defend my right to mock it when you insist on making it public knowledge.
I don't hate god - god does not exist, so that would be stupid. I do hate war mongering religionists who abuse children by teaching them that there is an Invisible Super Daddy in the sky who will burn them in hell if they don't do wot u sed the babble sed an ancient translator working for the King of England sed a goat herder in the bronze ages sed god sed.
If you don't want people laughing at your beliefs - why don't you try not having such funny beliefs instead of attacking anyone who dares to point out the nonsensical, contradictory, irrational nature of them?
That might work.
And I agree WoC is very, very brave to keep agreeing with all the other religionists while hiding her identity. Very brave. By your standards.
Spoken like a true hypocrite. Lets' see if you're exhibiting peace and respect:
I'm feeling the love here.
Whatever purpose you might imagine is overshadowed by the fact that you are here to fabricate and tell whoppers of tales that are so easily refuted, one wonders why you would do such things.
Of course, the answer is right in front of you. Lying for Jesus.
Ah but did he? One of the words commonly translated as hell if Gehenna, referring to the valley of Hinnom, the city's rubbish dump where sulphor was used to fuel a continuous fire to burn rubbish. This was the place where the bodies of executed criminals were thrown thus denying them a proper burial.
But here is another question. The Devil is supposedly in charge of Hell and punishes sinners, but the Devil doesn't want people to obey God. This means that the Devil supposedly punishes those who serve his purpose. It's a bit like claiming God will punish those who are good and go to heaven. So why would the Devil, the supposed enemy of God, do God's work in punishing those follow him?
Satan doesn't punish anyone.
He might make you doubt God and go to Hell...
God made Hell to punish Satan and his followers.. He's NOT in charge of didly with the exception of the abilities he was given when created and the demons that rebelled against God with him and followed his lead..
Satan knows he can't win. God threw him out of Heaven already. I'm sure Heaven was the aim as why wouldn't Satan have wanted a paradise?
Would you want the 90 billion dollar mansion or the basement with hot moldy air and rats?
He already lost. God has set the sentence just as any judge does and Satan is awaiting his punishment. And while he waits he wants to drag as many down with him as he can. Misery loves company. That statement is true, I've seen tons of people go down trying to take people with them.
Hell is not the lake of fire. Hell is the place, the lake of fire is the torment.
Hell is the the "prison". The lake of fire is the "torture chamber".
The torture was meant for Satan and his demons because Satan and his own would want God dead if he could make it happen. But God can't die. He is GOD.
Satan hates God because he knows God is going to throw him into that lake and he hates mankind because he (Satan) doesn't get a second chance. People like me and you do. A lot of second chances actually..
He hated Adam and Eve because God is going to punish him (Satan), but God loves Adam and Eve. How do you attack people you can't beat? You go after the people they love...
People weren't meant to go to Hell. They were supposed to be happy and not listen to Satan. But they listened to Satan and disobeyed the ONLY thing God said not to do.
They could do anything they wanted but eat that one dinky little fruit. But no.. They had to do the one thing, rather than the thousands of things they were allowed to do.
So then people became just like Satan's fallen angel followers.. Like him, which is evil. And what did God make for evil to go to? Hell.
Then God said He would give mankind a second chance and give them a way out (Jesus Christ) if they would trust in Him and understand that they need God. Without understanding and humbling yourself before God, He won't save you, because then you have too much pride and that is what Satan has too much of.
Pride is the reason Satan tried to take God out. Because he was so proud just like those little chihuahua's that attack the german shepards and become a snack. Too proud to realise his place.
Well.. With that said..
Have a awesome day.
" Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire."
Is this another SAW movie??
Those things are disgusting.
One voice along with John;Morrison
You know I would be a liar
If I were to say to you
A few go to Heaven
to get much Higher
The rest us of get set on FIRE!!!
If I was to say to you
God, most of us get set on Fire
Come on God, why light me on fire
Come on God, why light my family fire
Try to set the night on fire
don't put me on fire
That's no way to retire
The time is to think it through
No time to swallow the fresh
Try now we all can only lose
It’s more frightful at funeral pyre
Come on God, why light me on fire
Come on God, all my friends on fire
Try to set the day and night on fire, yeah
are those Morrison's original words, even?
...Cause I've heard his song before, and the lyrics didn't go that way.
Wow, what a bad corruption of a Satanists words... I prefer the original.
its a movie about examining your life and dealing with faults before they destroy you
Castlepaloma, I don't say this in a negative way but its Jim Morrison. Were you writing the actual lyrics to 'Light My Fire' or just a personal take on them?
He died for our sins didn't you know that! it's the 1st thing we learn in church!
ya god needed someone to take the blame...since humans could not and god himself was not willing to , god first created his son ,then sent it to earth , then made sure that He killed him and then brought him back...god loves games...no doubt gaming is becoming huge business considering humans are said to be made in HIS image
Yeh, of 100 billion people who ever lived on the planet some of them must have died for us. Jim was young like Jesus when he die, he may have die for you sin too, after all, we are all born sinners.
I put Jim and Bob nail up on my wall and have Bob ona t shirt.
There more Cannabis smokers than christians, not a pot head myself. Just perfer the real happy Bob Marley as his story is that of an archetype too, also perfer that look than the Jesus nailed to the cross look.
Just for the skeptics. I'm sure some are set in stone. Please do ignore.
Near death experiences mean very little to me, to be honest with you. Of course when your body is under stress you will hallucinate, and it makes sense that your mind would use popular depictions of the afterlife as your hallucination(s).
vector, You are showing love and compassion by sharing these scriptures about hell. Some may falsely accuse you of spreading hate. I am sure you will continue to be led by the spirit of God. Amen to your post.
How brave of you to hide behind an anonymous persona and threaten hell. Little wonder your religion causes so many wars.
Like wot Jeebus sed.
No - really. I think it is very, very brave of you to hide behind an anonymous Internet persona casting hellfire.
Like wot Jeebus sed.
Very brave - I am certainly considering switching faiths to yours because you are so brave.
What's wrong, Mark?
Is the fact that you use your own name and spout hatred for God and His word...getting to you? Are you wishing you hadn't used your real name? Or....maybe you have multiple accounts as many people do around here?
No matter. It's silly of you to try to insult someone for using a screen name.
No really - I think it is very brave of her.
Why would I wish not to use my own name? No - I am honest and do not need to hide. I am open and honest as the day is long. Say it like I see it.
I don't hate god Brenda - don't be silly. God does not exist. Not terribly fond of his fan club though.
I'm glad to hear you don't hate Him. But sad to hear you deny Him.
Because He Loves your soul, Mark.
Nonsense. I don't deny anything - you are proving to me right this second it does not exist.
Mark, take care, God might take your sole.......... I heard right now he is hoping without a sole!
Hi Brenda, I politely disregard Mark's silly remarks . It doesn't mean people are hiding when they prefer to use a screen name. He is hilarious
Of course they are not hiding their real names - no.
How brave. I bet Jesus is very proud of you for denying who you are in order to tell us about hell.
Certainly convinced me.
Maybe he's just jealous 'cause he can't insult everyone via their real names! LOL
Or else he thinks you're vector7.
Either way, or both, he's just fishing for info basically.
I've thought of changing to a screen name too. Maybe that would get him off my back.....but indeed I guess I'm too brave for my own good where he's concerned.....
Oh no.. She's not me. My name is Daniel Buchanan.
He only wishes it were that easy. There really is two of us.
Great to "meet" you Daniel.
And you're in good company when someone compares you to Woman of Courage; she's such a sweet person from everything I've witnessed around here!
I became a fan of yours a while ago.
Good stuff you're posting!
It's great to meet you too Brenda. I noticed, and thanks for the compliments. Woman of Courage is one of the sweetest God loving people I have come across.
I haven't got to read anything on your page yet.. But it's up just waiting for me to pick. I've got a huge article or compilation set of them coming up and it's taking a lot of time and energy.
And that's because it's God's stuff.
And I love your profile pic..
who's to say if his name is really Mark it could be anything.
Wow, Thank you Brenda and vector for your kind compliments.
Hi vector, Yes we are two different people
Brenda, It could be jealousy. I see your point.
Yes I still love you Mark. No matter what you say. Unfortunately there are some things you just can't win at.
Me loving you is one of them.
Hi Mark, Thank you very much for the compliment. You are right. I am brave. Sorry, you think I am hiding behind a screen name.
God's spirit? Is that Vodka? Please let me have some too
"vector, You are showing love and compassion by sharing these scriptures about hell. Some may falsely accuse you of spreading hate. I am sure you will continue to be led by the spirit of God. Amen to your post."
They must think I'm surprised or am not expecting it. I don't know what they think, but they prove Jesus' words from 2000 years ago true. Wonder how Christ knew His words would still be around? Because He is the Son of God.
I'm aware of the mockery and lies that are to be imputed towards me and those like me and you. They must think they are doing something new.
22 "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."
And I don't mind if they mock and persecute me. While they ridicule me and attempt to demean me they help me. Those that follow God are blessed even when cursed. They may not know God. But I do..
10 "Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you."
I still love them, just like Jesus the Son of God loves them. They can claim anything they want, but I don't start wars. I just suffer persecution and mockery.
vector, Before you joined this site, I was recently accused of not showing love because I shared biblical scriptures of how to avoid hell. I shared them at the appropriate time, and I do not regret it. I don't mind the mockery and persecution either. It won't stop me from following Christ. Rejoice!
1 Corinthians 1:22-30
22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
In the End the truth shall be revealed, it better to just dust off your feet and move to those who truly want Christ then waste time:)
blessed31 In the End the truth shall be revealed,
You mean when your God blows up the earth and then sorts out all the good Christians to smile down on hell.
I believe the Word of God is absolute and Heaven/Hell is real.
Thank you for your post.
We live in the disposition of grace and mercy...and for those who are willing to believe. What is there to lose in believing in a God of all creation? Being labeled a Christian?
Nothing to lose and absolutely everything to gain..
36 "For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"
You can read my hub on the subject.
<snipped - please do not post links in the forums>
It will take you to the wash house.
He must die on the cross in order to fulfill the law completely?
- - - - -
He said that he had to die on the cross to fulfill all the prophesy.
I don't recall him saying; to fulfill the LAW?
And if it is written that way, I would question whether that was translated properly?
17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
I seek God's will. Not man's..
Jesus Christ came for a specific purpose. He stated His purpose in this passage, clear as day. He came to fulfill the law and the prophets.
If His purpose was to pay for the sins of all who would accept God's mercy and grace, then that was part of the fulfillment.
Question the translation all you'd like. It's all in the Bible..
Here's you some good solid proof:
46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Jesus Christ directly quoted from Psalm 22:1
1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
Christ taught that the scriptures were the law:
5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
Jesus came to fulfill the law, and the prophets. And dying on the cross was part of that fulfillment of scripture.
Read the rest of Psalm 22. It will clear the rest up for you.
How blissful it is...to live in ignorance!
I wish I could!
I suppose you're here because you feel threatened or something?
Why is it your annoying me anyhow?
I do love you, but your like a fly...
I suppose you are addressing me.
I'm here because I like fictions.......
And the way you people justify your beliefs are quite amusing........
A good time pass.....
And I'm here not to change anybody!
For I know no amount of reason will change anything.
You people will always close your eyes to that.
You won't even see the foolishness in your religion,
Though you are first to spot that in others!
Yes, hell is real, humans create it on a daily basis.
Jesus died because idiots of that era decided that it was okay to hurt, harm, and mangle someone because that person didn't think or believe like them. This behavior is usually based on fear, control, greed and dominion. It has also been a prevalent part of the human experience, throughout many belief systems around the world and through time. Jesus taught me, at the expense of his life, that maybe I should ask myself," Do I hate the players or hate the game?"
Hell by any other label is still hell.
After Adam failed the test of obedience, both he and his wife Eve, were placed OUTSIDE of God's DIRECT protective care. Perfection was lost, and ALL descendants of Adam and Eve, inherited the defect of imperfection, so they got sick, grew old, and DIED.
Since ALL progeny of Adam had the same eventuality, i.e. DEATH, and the COST for this position was the PERFECT life LOST by Adam, then, it required the LIFE of ANOTHER perfect male to RELEASE the SENTENCE served to Adam and Eve, the promised sentence was DEATH.
Romans 5:12 (American Standard Version)
12 Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned:--
Jesus was the LAST Adam, an EQUAL or propitiatory sacrifice.
1 Corinthians 15:45 (American Standard Version)
45 So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
Jesus' sacrificial DEATH, answered ALL the charges made by Satan.
Job 2:4 (American Standard Version)
4 And Satan answered Jehovah, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.
Genesis 3:5 (American Standard Version)
5 for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.
Satan actually CLAIMED that it would be BETTER if man DECIDED for himself what was right or wrong.
Every bit of this is nonsensical hearsay, from a 2000 year old book of myths and absurd fables...unlesss you are merely preaching to the choir of blind, fearful, followers.
editstatsdeletesuggest links closeLoading ...Science and Religion over the Centuries67
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Dig Deep for Truth
Philosophy its Role in Science and Religion
Based on my humble observations, this is what has been perceived.
Ancient, manuscript copies [MSS], in ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, and Koine Greek, contain information construed as scientific, that, have proven to be way ahead of man's scientific progress.
These MSS are from recorded dates of 3500 B.C.E. to first century C.E., whilst Modern Science is
about 450 years old.
From about the time of Noah's flood about 2900 B.C.E. [ in B.C.E. higher numbers are less recent, e.g. 10 B.C.E. - 9, 8, ... 2, 1 B.C.E. then 1 C.E. ] many flood myths emerged from the region of Mesopotamia. The Bible mentions how the languages were confused in ancient Babylon, thus accounting for the dispersion of these versions of the flood.
In time myths [of various sorts] influenced how philosophers thought, and the early Christian movement after the death of the apostles eventually was submerged by these philosophers, an
event PREDICTED by the Bible [ 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:9- 12; 2 Timothy 4:1- 4, Daniel
12:4, 9, 10].
So by the time of Copernicus, Religion [including professed Christianity], and Science, were more governed by philosophy, rather than by unadulterated FACTS.
Copernicus, in disproving the misled philosophy of an earth- centered galaxy, tried to show, that the sun-centered galaxy, proves how organized the Bible's God is, but, reason was not a common commodity then.
As time progressed, Modern Science, became more and more refined. Religion on the other hand did not see a LIGHT, until a group known as International Bible Students, started to study the Bible
in a 'scientific' way.
Bible truths revealed the fallacious Neo-Platonic concepts of Eternal Torment, Trinity, and Immortality of the Soul.
Although Modern Science has 'dropped' most of its philosophical baggage, it has retained the fallacy
of Evolution. Certain branches of science although largely dropping metaphysics, has introduced
Theoretical Physics, which, may run the risk of introducing the religion of blind faith in science.
It therefore is prudent, to consider ALL the facts, in any deliberation of TRUTH.
http://hubpages.com/hub/Origin-of-the-U … eRealFacts
http://hubpages.com/hub/Science-leads-u … ts-Creator
http://hubpages.com/hub/Science-can-onl … eh-Jehovah
http://hubpages.com/hub/Biblical-Questi … rinity-etc
http://hubpages.com/hub/True-Christians … hat-is-BTG
Oh. Wow. So satan is the one who gifted humanity with freewill. Hummmmm.
My, you are a practical star, consuming daily diets of propaganda on the left, propaganda on the right. Mmmmm...you be nice and fat for the grillin'. Is there a hell? Is there not a hell. Does he love me, does he not! You live in a world of your ancestors forging, poisoning you and your offspring. Of course there is a hell. You're in it. It's a deep hole which you must claw and climb your way out of, or you'll end up right back here, once again believing that this is your first trip through the lower realm. Got you in his snare, he does, my pretty! Single file, stand in line, don't lose your place, because it's a LONG WAY TO THE BACK O' THE LINE. Just ask Jack Ripley.
Ahhhhhh. And so it is. Forgetting to remember, remembering to forget. I been to heaven and Iv'e been through hell and they have both been powerful teachers. Balance is the key. Who's BBQ is it anyway? I be doin' tha grillin'. Who's bringing the beer?
P.S. Hell is the place that ain't got the beer.
If there's no such thing as Hell, why would Christ Jesus have to die?
Jesus was a mortal- a human being, he had to die; though he did not die on the Cross; yet eventually he did die in India at the age of about 120 years; that is the fate of every human being.
To each will be their own.Everyone will have to bear their own burden.Every flower have its own bloom.
I am not sure about all that has been said. But, the orginal question asked about experiencing hell or there is a hell? Tossing one in. If John 3:16 guarantees eternal life and the alternative is perishing, then where does hell come into this? Or, if we experience hell is it eternal? And, if it is eternal, then I am really confused about eternal life and perishing.
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Repentance and asking Jesus for His forgiveness and making Him your Lord, (because judgement was given to Him through His sacrifice to save us, got a scripture, just ask.) is how to be saved from Hell. Only Jesus can save because He walked the road perfectly and now has authority to allow those who accept Him as their Lord to be made perfect and granted entrance to Heaven.
Eternal life is in both scenarios.
In Hell you live forever, and in Heaven.
Except in Hell it isn't any fun. Being in that much pain they call "perishing" because it certainly isn't living... It's as close to death as the soul can get.
There is a link on my homepage that has Biblical references to Jesus' words on Hell. He said "everlasting" and the like A LOT. Pretty straight forward. I'm taking His word for it as He is the only one who spoke of Hell with an actual knowledge of what it was like and spoke with authority.
(And because I believe in Him)
the word hell is a catholic word inserted in place of a word we well know about. grave.
the word everlasting is aeon and that means a set amount of time depending on the context of the time. God said he would put an everlasting fire in jerusalem and is there a fire burning in jerusalem? nope, But there was, its out now.
When christians who have been taught the catholic doctrine of everlasting torment in the fires of hell are just parroting what their teaching has taught.
When looked at with the original words in place we get a totally different picture.
Jesus died so that people would not die. or perish (john 3:16)
The lake of fire which IS the second death, is eternal separation from God or the act of not living with God because the essence of them has perished or is destroyed as chaff or waste. God does not keep garbage around to burn forever, especially since God is everywhere, he would never get away from hell. As we know with God he deals with everything in a final manner and very efficiently.
We also must bring into account that the OT system relied on sacrifices of animals. Jesus died to close this chapter and open another dispensation, in short, to change the rules. Christ died to show us there is an immortality, that He is the door into that immortality of which those saved people of God would enter into. By himself being the final sacrifice (shedding of blood) He ushered in a new way of God.
If there's no such thing as Hell, why would Christ Jesus have to die?
Jesus was a human beings; he escaped a cursed death on the Cross; he died a natural and peaceful death in Kashmir, India.
He went to heaven.
What he had to do with the hell? It is not and was not for him, for sure.
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