Why would a god need to order the murder of his son inorder to forgive

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  1. LucidDreams profile image65
    LucidDreamsposted 7 years ago

    Yes, I never did understand the point behind needing to kill his own son in order to forgive sins of others. Think that like most religions, sacrifice is just part of it. Apparently God is showing the sacrifice he is willing to make for us.

    1. profile image0
      brotheryochananposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      absolutely

      1. Slarty O'Brian profile image82
        Slarty O'Brianposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        What sacrifice? Jesus did not die in any real sense. That he would rise was a forgone conclusion, particularly if he was god. Who sacrificed what, exactly?

        The only way a sacrifice could have taken place is if Jesus was just a man with the hope or faith that he was sacrificing himself for the sins of all.

        If he was god then it was all just theatrics.

        1. Rhonda Elisha profile image60
          Rhonda Elishaposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          There is no challenge to the answer to your post. Through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit the answer to your request via my hub (titled) The Lords Sacrifice (It's meaning of purpose) 52 can be read.

  2. earnestshub profile image88
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    Psychopaths often kill their children, the biblical god is just another one of them that does.

  3. Timlove profile image68
    Timloveposted 7 years ago

    I dont have the answer to your question all I can say is the end justifies the means.Obviously Jesus is not upset about the whole murdering thing so why are you.Why would you want a God you could wrap your puny brain around. if that were the case he wouldnt be God you would. maybe thats the answer to the question. you just want to be God the sin that got man in the fallen state to begin with.The fact that you demand God to justify himself is the reason you do not have your answer.

    1. earnestshub profile image88
      earnestshubposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Which god?
      Let me guess. The god you were talked into believing because of where you live.


      I'll take a punt that you weren't bought up in Afghanistan, so that would be the christian god?

  4. Timlove profile image68
    Timloveposted 7 years ago

    seriously!!! did muhammid or how ever you spell it create heaven and earth I think not. No one had to talk me into beleiving just look around you God is seen in his creation.Nice try though.

    1. earnestshub profile image88
      earnestshubposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      You avoided answering. Why is that?

    2. earnestshub profile image88
      earnestshubposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Same god, different theme. smile If you were bought up in Afghanistan you would be spouting the quoran at me.

      1. profile image0
        brotheryochananposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        Now you see why God was adamant about the way He handled things.
        Koran came into existence 325 yrs after Christ, so obviously it is an invention of man. This confusion about which religion is right is not brought about by God.
        This is obviously a mandunnit.

        1. profile image52
          Rabgixposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          And Hinduism started 5500 before "Christ." So technically, isn't Christianity also mandunnit?

          1. profile image0
            brotheryochananposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            You need to read my post again to see how your post is out of context.
            I was replying to a koran issue.
            But if i must now address your statement:
            The egyptians had religion also, which God was adamantly against. Hindu also would have been in the same category as the egyptian religion, had it been important enough or popular enough or in that area, so it doesn't matter how old it is. Everything outside of the OT is mandunnit.
            Christianity is the conclusion of the God of the Hebrew religion (OT) and the beginning of the NT, prophesied in the OT and expected, therefore NOT a mandunnit in that same sense in my prior post.

            1. profile image52
              Rabgixposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              So Christianity is one true religion out of ever religion there ever was or will be? Mighty convenient we were born when we were.

              1. profile image0
                brotheryochananposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                exactly
                you might need a bit more elaboration on that.
                Going back in time to any part of the OT and Gods people would say the same thing - good to be us. When the Hebrews left Egypt they were a mixed multitude. After the fall of Jerichos' walls only Rahab and her family were saved. God has never stopped people from joining what he is doing and its the same today, even though there are still people on the outside, there will always be people on the outside, the less our society reminds people that God is available the fewer shall know. How shall they hear without a preacher? and this is what some beliefs want to do, they want to make sure people are on the outside.
                More specifically, Christianity is so much better than the OT law system.

                1. profile image52
                  Rabgixposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  You're a fool and a perfect example of failed humanity. There is no way one to do things and the fact that there are an infinite number of deities proves that.

                  Being blind seems to suit you though.

                  1. profile image0
                    brotheryochananposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                    I'd use the bible to mention to you that the book of leviticus is all about how God wants his people to worship and serve him... so one way, hmm lets see. I can go to the new testament and show how jesus  called the religious people of that time, the pharisees, whited sepulchres. Why would he say that if they were on the right way.
                    There has always been one way to God.
                    I have enjoyed your statement full of blindness as it is.

        2. peterxdunn profile image61
          peterxdunnposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          And the new testament came on the scene 4,000 years after the Sumerians first worshiped Anu the Sky Father. All the gods that came thereafter are but pale imitations of Anu: God of the Dawn.

          1. profile image0
            brotheryochananposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            lol
            you get the same response as Rabgix

            What both of you are not aware of is that the crucifixion of Jesus is a paramount occurrence that God would not just throw away and 325 yrs bring a new way into existence. The resurrection was the last of Gods intended paths and so in light of the death and resurrection of Christ no other way is going to quickly come into existence. We need to keep the koran in context with my prior post.

            1. profile image52
              Rabgixposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              I'm in awe that you believe something imaginary so strongly...

              1. peterxdunn profile image61
                peterxdunnposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                Sun gods have come and gone - and then come again - a long time before jesus was around also. Mithras was also crucified and then resurrected. In fact crucifixion and resurrection are de rigueur for Sun Gods. Why don't you try comparing your johnny-come-lately with a few of these earlier models - just to see how he measures up?

                1. EmVeeT profile image73
                  EmVeeTposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  You said it... Sun gods have come and gone -

                  Where are they now?

                  JESUS IS.

                  Though you will never believe me, HE Is my best Friend. HE Is Real. HE Is Alive.

                  How can we ever reconcile our differences? We cannot. Not using earthly means. After all, knowing HIM comes by 'faith' and you refuse to extend yourself in that direction.

                  I'm not certain if you're just too intellectual, or to full of pride. And, I'm not judging you when I say that. I can be rather pride filled myself... however, I've learned when to back down, in order to create the proper environment for G'D to fulfill HIS Purposes in me.

                  I have a question for you, not knowing if you can answer (not because you're ignorant of the answer, just because I don't know if you've participated in this application)...

                  When someone is being hypnotized, they are brought to clear their mind in order for 'the powers that be' to function in them. Why can't an atheist do this with G'D? ... setting aside everything you know, believe, trust, in order to truly allow Him access?

                  Perhaps, you have... I'm not judging you... I only know what I have experienced and I hurt for those who have yet to discover the Glory of An Almighty, Wondrous and All-Sufficient G'D.

                  Besides which, I remember the vehement battle in my brain when I first sought to KNOW HIM. I remember the unceasing struggle in my mind in order to be released from the stronghold of the enemy (another you don't believe in). Not until that struggle was exhausted, did I begin to sense THE POWER, PRESENCE and PEACE of G'D.

                  ... I've said too much... I don't really want to be part of this conversation, but from time to time, I find myself too agitated to stay away.

                  May G'D Grant you a taste of His Presence... for HIS NAMES Sake, through JESUS, THE SACRIFICIAL LAMB, my ADVOCATE, my KING.  Amen.

                  1. peterxdunn profile image61
                    peterxdunnposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                    You are talking to an atheist here; please bear that in mind, spouting claptrap at me wont convince me of a damn thing.

                    Your jesus is just a plagiarized copy of older sun gods; indisputable fact, except to those that believe fairy tales.

                2. profile image0
                  brotheryochananposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  ahh yes the much heralded mystery religions. Why should we consider the stories of Osiris (Egypt), Dionysus (Greece), Adonis (Syria), Attis (Asia minor), Mithras (Persia) as fables and yet not consider the story of Jesus to be piled among these- Myths.
                  First off, historical documentation, eyewitness accounts, and era;  to skim a few reasons.
                  Secondly, for brevity, lets deal with resurrection. Many of these resurrections were: linked to seasonal life and death patterns - such an obvious visual prop. These other resurrections were repeated - Christ is not repeatedly dying and being born again and there is no linking with seasonal patterns.
                  Nobody ever saw these mythical resurrections and deaths. There were no eyewitnesses to Osiris dying and being born or any of the other myths. They are without confirmation.
                  Baal is the storm god in heaven (although not called heaven but the sky - its a translation thing) Baal is directly linked to weather. So one day baals brother swallows baal (its stops raining) and mom goes and frees baal and it rains again. But no one ever sees this happen. The same with the other myths - there is no eyewitness, no empty tomb, no events surrounding the resurrection or death like christianity has. Although baal regurgitates well after being swallowed, does this regurgection even come close to Jesus' resurrection? no.
                  There's no clear account of Marduk dying so resurrection is moot.
                  Osiris gets chopped up, scattered, his parts are found and put back together but ends up in the netherworld. Not the same thing again and no eyewitnesses, no empty grave, no historical evidence - no one ever saw it happen and this no witness aspect is what makes a story, a story.
                  There is a huge difference between stories and historical evidence.
                  Justin martyr discussed parallels between christianity and the myths but he was using this example to say, you don't persecute other religions why persecute this one? So he was not admitting christianity to be a myth and he stretched the christian beliefs to fit his case in defense of christian persecutions.

                  Mithra is a second century mystery religion, when it was active. Mithra was born out of a rock in a cave. A rock is very far from a virgin birth. And again, there are no eyewitness accounts. Mithra was born on dec 25, we do not know when jesus was born. The christian adoption of dec 25 came about in 336AD, a mistake of the catholic church to incorporate pagan beliefs into christianity and not the other way around. It was the popes' and emperors' suggestion that instead of banning pagan ceremonies they just appropriate them for christianity.
                  Mithras followers were promised immortality. Immortality is something that socrates and plato said humans already had. There are no documents that confirm this. Immortality is a gift from God according to christianity. No other religion ever offered immortality to its followers.
                  Mithras sacrificed himself for world peace, which he did not, he killed a bull.
                  Mithras rose after 3 days from a tomb. Scholars do not know anything about the death of mithras. There are monuments and almost no textual evidence probably due to its being a secret religion. Richard Gordon, in his book, Image and value in the greco-roman world states 'there is no death of mithra, so there cannot be a resurrection'.
                  There are two types of mithraism: iranian and roman.
                  the tauroctony (bull-slaying scene) of Roman Mithraism was located in the most important place in every mithraeum (temple). Thus, if the god Mithras of the Roman religion was actually the Iranian god Mithra, we should expect to find in Iranian mythology a story in which Mithra kills a bull but, says, Mithraic scholar David Ulansey, "no such Iranian myth exists, in no known Iranain text does Mithra have anything to do with killing a bull". It seems we cannot connect the roman to the iranian mithraism which makes the roman mystery religion not as old as some would like to think. The mithraism you talk about is restricted to Roman military and omits women completely, both of these are not christian attributes.
                  The bull slaughter of Roman mithraism is a rite practiced only in exceptional cases. In its developed form, the initiate was placed in a pit and a bull was slaughtered on a grate above him, drenching him in bulls blood. This of course is not the application of the blood either by the Hebrews of OT or the New dispensation by Christ, who takes away the sin of the world. The taurobolium is a second century rite. This is a situation of christianity influencing mithraism and not the other way around.
                  I can go on about how mithraism and other myths and older religions do not parallel christianity and i could speak about the uniqueness of christianity and how it is continued off the back of the OT. I could mention how the time lines for the myths do not add up to support that christianity is like the myths that came after it. I could include the 'double doctrine' doctrine and how it was around long before Christianity in the form of socrates and plato and how they knew the lies they told to the public were to keep the public in line but this predates Jesus birth by 400 yrs. so obviously, the lies that plato was telling could not have included what christ did.
                  So i am not worried about what half cocked contritions are manufactured to discredit christianity they all run like water off a ducks back when compared to God bein in da house y'all.. come on... recognize bro. oh yeah. high five! smile

  5. Timlove profile image68
    Timloveposted 7 years ago

    Persistance does not pay off in wanting to be God. You will die someday like all mortals and you will face almighty God and in his presence you will fall on your face and beg forgivness of being so ignorant and God will forgive you because his son has paid the price for it and you will confess that Jesus christ is lord.

    1. earnestshub profile image88
      earnestshubposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      And you're authority for such an outrageous claim is?

      1. profile image0
        brotheryochananposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        this is where you need a thing called imagination. Not the conjuring kind of imagination where a golden car zooms out of the clouds and speaks australian. But where you imagine what the text of the bible says will happen.
        First you imagine God looking at you. What kind of piericing eyes is gonna have? the kind that go through your soul, that see right inside you to your deepest secret or just a pair of common hazel eyes with no 'window to the soul quality'. Then after you remember that you DIED and realize where you now STAND.. man thats gonna be a mind blower huh...

        Are ya getting the picture?
        Of course the bible is the source for all things Godly, that's why He inspired Godly men to write Godly things that when the pen was put down, was exactly what God wanted to be written.

    2. profile image52
      Rabgixposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      lol of course

  6. Timlove profile image68
    Timloveposted 7 years ago

    Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

    1. Slarty O'Brian profile image82
      Slarty O'Brianposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Good threat. Now show me god. lol...

      1. EmVeeT profile image73
        EmVeeTposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        Mr. O'Brian...

        I really hope when the time comes you'll be laughing out loud for quite another reason than the one you're presenting here... :S

        You're still on my heart.

        G'D BLESS you.

        1. Slarty O'Brian profile image82
          Slarty O'Brianposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          When the time comes I expect to be no more. So I better laugh now while I can. wink

          You seem like a very nice, loving person. But seriously, don't give me or my soul another thought. I'm a lost cause as far as anyone convincing me the Christian version of a god exists.

          Only your god itself could do that by showing up and saying hi. The invite has been there for years. If it exists it knows where I am.

          This is not meant to insult you but it does not need  humans to do its convincing for it, It needs to man up and do it himself.

          1. EmVeeT profile image73
            EmVeeTposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            Dearest Sir...

            There are no "lost causes" on the face of this earth...

            That's why I care. You're so right. Only my G'D can show up and invite you, but don't you see, Mr. O'Brian... that's what all this rhetoric is...

            ...you rejecting everything anyone has to offer in the way of HIS Invitation... and HIM continuing to reach out...

            HE Loves you despite yourself. HE LOVES me that way too.

            There is no difference between us in that regard. You mean just as much to HIM, if not more, than I do. As a result, you mean so very much to me.

            I understand you want TANGIBLE proof. I know that. But what if HE Came and Shook you in your sleep, or took you into a 'between life and death" circumstance, where all you would have to lose is this 'life' you consider so fleeting and temporal, and eternally insignificant?

            Why should HE Have to go to such lengths to reach you? Who are you that you count yourself impenetrable to HIM?

            You're not; and if HE So Chooses, He Can break through every barrier keeping Him from your heart, away from the spirit in you, He Longs to validate... but HE's a gentleman. HE Will never force you. Never. That's why coming to Him is by "faith".. by faith and nothing more.

            I pray so many good things for you, Sir. I pray we will laugh over this Thread in eternity one day... as we touch on all the 'hints' and 'invitations He Extended to you along the way'. Ultimately though... it's up to you.

            G'D BLESS you today, Mr. O'Brian. May He Bless you and Embrace you and Cause His "sun" to shine on you, even if only for a minute... really shine on you, so that you know it's Him. In YESHUA HAMASCIACH I pray. Amen.

          2. EmVeeT profile image73
            EmVeeTposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            Oh... and you're also right... HE Doesn't need 'me' to do His Convincing for Him... HE Allows it... because HE Loves us and HE Wants to grant us an opportunity to do something that will cause us to feel as though we've delighted HIM...

            You see, HE's G'D. There's nothing in this world, NOTHING, that I can give HIM, except my love, devotion, obedience and trust.

            ... G'D BLESS you.

    2. A Troubled Man profile image58
      A Troubled Manposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      As I live, saith (fill in name of any psychotic despot), every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to (fill in name of any psychotic despot).

      Why would anyone want to follow your God? lol

      1. Slarty O'Brian profile image82
        Slarty O'Brianposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        That's really the problem. The god is said to do/be good even when clearly doing evil. It can't do evil because everything it  does is by definition good.

        This is the tyrant syndrome where black is white and you ask for more if you get your teeth kicked in and you like it. lol...

        No. This god is not for me.

    3. peterxdunn profile image61
      peterxdunnposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

      Doesn't ask for much your god does he? I mean abject obeisance isn't asking a lot is it?

      But then - we know that every person alive today doesn't bow down before your god: some refuse to bend the knee (I know cos' I'm one) - so was your infallible god wrong? Or is it the much simpler case: that the bible was not - in fact - written by a god but by fallible men prone to telling lies?

      1. aguasilver profile image71
        aguasilverposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        You obviously misunderstand that God is timeless, you can confess that He is God now, or when you meet Him, but you WILL bow down, and you will have no other option that to confess that He is God, because when you meet Him, you will be stunned.

        I was, and there is no 'abject obeisance' it's more a joyous reunion with our Father, the 'abject obeisance' will be when you finally meet with Him and realise you were wrong all along, and wasted a life, missing eternity with God, due to your error.

        Better to find Him now I think, rather than when you get back home, to find you have lost the key to the door.

        1. peterxdunn profile image61
          peterxdunnposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          You are are right, I do not understand your god. I do not - either -understand  how grown men can abdicate their moral responsibility to think for themselves and allow their perception of the world to be dictated by a 2000 year old plagiarized myth. In fact, in order for me to think like you I would first need a lobotomy.

          1. profile image0
            brotheryochananposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            And God lobotomizes! The teachings of this world are lies and all its paths lead to destruction. What you see as abdication of moral responsibility is just retraining. I often wonder why people who claim to have such a good hold on their morals complain about surrendering that moral claim? If you think you are good enough or over half way there, whats the problem. Would it not be more difficult for someone with addictions, mental instabilities, whatever to live as a christian, instead of those who are more perfect and capable to do so? Its as i have said before, Gods biggest problem is not sin, its self. Self is the mitigating factor, Your life is good and all is well so why involve God in it and yet you know some changes will have to take place.
            Lobotomies are good... lol

            1. peterxdunn profile image61
              peterxdunnposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              I do not consider myself perfect. And I seriously doubt that anyone that knows me does either. I am not even sure that I would want to be perfect.

              However you - along with most of the christian commentators on these forums - have obviously made your mind up that you will be going to heaven when you die.

              Now even I know that it is not for you to make that assumption. What is more - having made that assumption you have committed a most grievous sin that would actually disqualify you from entering into the kingdom of heaven.

              So if you are right and I am wrong; I guess I'll be seeing you in Hell.

              1. profile image0
                brotheryochananposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                lol
                now you are just being funny

                1. peterxdunn profile image61
                  peterxdunnposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  Hey Bro, if people like Tony Blair and George Bush: people that are pushing for war against Iran, get their way then we will see Hell-on-Earth in the form of a third world war.

                  So I just might see you in Hell.

                  1. aguasilver profile image71
                    aguasilverposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                    You are talking of Armageddon, and I am reliably informed that we miss that one, but if you stick around, yes,  you may get a taste of things to come for you.

                  2. profile image0
                    brotheryochananposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                    see me in hell...  why would you say that?
                    Firstly i do not believe hell as it is commonly understood as anything else but a catholic fear doctrine which the bible and the attributes of God do not support.
                    There is to be, if you like the term Armageddon, Armageddon, but it will not be hell. To use hell as a metaphor is cool with me although its inaccurate in any other sense, but i understand its usage metaphorically.

                    There will be a final conflict of that there is no doubt but who will be generals or instigators in it I have no idea. So pointing fingers at bush or whomever means nothing to me.

              2. Chris Neal profile image75
                Chris Nealposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                Ah, but there is a way that we can be sure we are going to Heaven!

                It just isn't as easy as most people think!

              3. EmVeeT profile image73
                EmVeeTposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                Mr. Dunn,

                You said:


                Now even I know that it is not for you to make that assumption. What is more - having made that assumption you have committed a most grievous sin that would actually disqualify you from entering into the kingdom of heaven.

                Actually, that's not the way it works. The entire structure of faith is based on believing that once every sin an individual will ever commit is washed clean by the Blood of G'D's Sacrificial Lamb, that individual can rest secure in the knowledge that, this being the case, hell will never be his/her consequence. On the other hand, that individual becomes a citizen of G'D's Kingdom from the moment of Salvation going forward, and a sojourner of the earth. This falls in line with the precept that G'D's Kingdom is eternal, while our time on earth is temporal.

                Just wanted to clarify the issue.

                Greetings to you, in HIS PRECIOUS NAME!

                1. Chris Neal profile image75
                  Chris Nealposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  Hear! Hear!

  7. earnestshub profile image88
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    Why indeed.
    Why any of it. Superstitious repetitive nonsense handed down and used to control the ignorance since the beginning of psychosis.

    1. profile image0
      brotheryochananposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      The superstitions you talk about are the pagan religions. Remember when socrates and plato were around it was long before Jesus appeared. The double doctrine standard really applied to the myths that you treasure so much.

  8. earnestshub profile image88
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    When you have defined omnipotence, you can get started with the problems of omniscient and omnipresent.

    Good luck with that.

    1. profile image0
      brotheryochananposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      unlimited power
         Genesis 1:1   In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
      unlimited knowledge
        1 Kings 20:22   And the prophet came to the king of Israel, and said unto him, Go, strengthen thyself, and mark, and see what thou does: for at the return of the year the king of Syria will come up against thee.
        1 Kings 20:26   And it came to pass at the return of the year, that Benhadad numbered the Syrians, and went up to Aphek, to fight against Israel.
         Matthew 9:4   And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Why think you evil in your hearts? 
      everywhere at once
        Acts 17:27   That they should seek the Lord, if happily they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
        Acts 17:28   For in Him we live, and move, and have our being;

  9. profile image56
    paarsurreyposted 7 years ago

    The Creator God is not so crued as Christians think of Him; he killed nobody.

    1. profile image52
      Rabgixposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      I'm curious then who killed every family's first born in Egypt?

      1. Slarty O'Brian profile image82
        Slarty O'Brianposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        Who will kill you when your time comes? lol...

      2. profile image56
        paarsurreyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        It was Pharaoh:

        [14:7] And call to mind when Moses said to his people, ‘Remember Allah’s favour upon you when He delivered you from Pharaoh’s people who afflicted you with grievous torment, slaying your sons and sparing your women; and in that there was a great trial for you from your Lord.’

        http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … mp;verse=0

        1. profile image52
          Rabgixposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          So the Pharaoh killed the first born? Even though God did it himself directly and said he would do so? lol

          1. Slarty O'Brian profile image82
            Slarty O'Brianposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            God has to have scapegoats and deniability like any mob boss. Don't you know that yet? lol...

      3. peterxdunn profile image61
        peterxdunnposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        paarsurrey: '... he killed nobody.'

        Killed nobody? What about the flood? Didn't millions die when it rained for 40 days and nights? But I forget. The bible can mean anything you like. It can also mean different things to different people. It can be as 'true' as you want it to be.

        1. profile image56
          paarsurreyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          That is damage done by nature; the Creator God was not responsible for it.

          1. peterxdunn profile image61
            peterxdunnposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            paarsurrey have you ever actually read the bible? Does it not say that god sent the flood to punish mankind for his wickedness? Moreover didn't your creator god 'create' nature?

            1. profile image56
              paarsurreyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              I have read the Bible.

              [3:118] The likeness of what they spend for the present life is as the likeness of a wind wherein there is intense cold which smites the harvest of a people who have wronged themselves, and destroys it. And Allah has not wronged them, but they wrong themselves.

              http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … ;verse=117

              1. peterxdunn profile image61
                peterxdunnposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                paarsurrey I am an atheist (just in case you hadn't already guessed) so quoting the bible or koran at me will not convince me of anything. Now if you had some original ideas on the subject - something that you thought up yourself and wasn't written down in a book more than a millennia ago -I would be happy to hear them. So put down your book and put your thinking cap on.

                1. profile image56
                  paarsurreyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  I don't mind if you are an atheist; you blamed the Creator God, it was therefore reasonable to quote from Him; don't be angry.

                  You interpereted the events wrongly; so I just clarified reasonably.

                  You may put your thining cap on; don't put it on the table.

                  1. peterxdunn profile image61
                    peterxdunnposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                    I haven't blamed your creator god for anything. He doesn't exist: you cannot put an imaginary being on trial.

                    Nor can an imaginary entity be quoted. The bible and koran were written by men and it is the word's of men that you are quoting.

                    And I am not angry either - just continuously disappointed that there are millions of people in this world that have been brainwashed by religion and they don't even realise that they are being manipulated by priests, imams, politicians and the rich 1%. Religious differences - as in christian west, muslim east - are exploited by the rich and their lackeys: politicians, priests etc, to start wars which will extend their wealth and power. We are witnessing this 'divide and conquer' process at work right now. It will probably result in a war against Syria and - down the line - Iran. These regional wars will escalate into the third world war (which has, in fact, already begun) and millions of people will die. It is relgion that makes this nightmare scenario possible.

                    Get rid of the politicians. Get rid of the Priests. Get rid of the banksters. And we can all live in peace with one another. Amen

                    1. aguasilver profile image71
                      aguasilverposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                      " just continuously disappointed that there are millions of people in this world that have been brainwashed by religion and they don't even realise that they are being manipulated by priests, imams, politicians and the rich 1%."

                      Amazing, not  'million' but billions of people all have relationships with God, yet you, the 2% of atheists are the ONLY ones who are right.... sound familiar?

                      It's exactly what you accuse fundies of!

    2. jay_kumar_07 profile image61
      jay_kumar_07posted 7 years ago

      Why would a god need to order the murder of his son inorder to forgive


      I think that the question and understanding is wrong.


      1.Why GOD need -
      Only the humanity creation has two options i.e obey or disobey
      So GOD need to give MANUAL [Abraham,Moses,BIBLE,QURAN Etc.,] through messengers.


      2.The murder of his son-
      It is not a murder.But sacrifice.The Messenger JESUS completed the MANUAL implementation to all. I believe that the blood of JESUS makes a major roll.



      3.In order to forgive -
      Not in order to forgive all of our sin.
      In order to forgive people who are interested to follow and following the MANUAL .


      I think so
      pl

      1. profile image0
        brotheryochananposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        Nobody ever goes to the quran to find historical evidence about jesus (historians, theologians, archeologists and others) There is only one source and few other secular sources but the bible is the number one source for information about Jesus, and why not it is a book completely devoted to jesus in both OT and NT. The OT in that it points to Jesus and the NT in that it speaks about Jesus in great detail and depth.

        The quran says that jesus never died on the cross.
        Lets look at jesus being a 'great' prophet which the quran says - no problem there. Jesus predicted (i dislike that word) prophesied his own death.
        If jesus did not die this kind of death, then that makes Jesus a false prophet. The Quran says Jesus is a Great prophet, but here we see that he lied about his death so the Quran is discredited.
        On the other hand.
        If Jesus did die as prophesied then Jesus is a Great prophet but the Quran is again discredited by saying that he did not die on the cross.
        It's an islamic catch-22

        Now if Allah made jesus to appear to be dead, wouldn't this make Allah a deceiver? We can understand it sorta, if God were trying to deceive those around the cross but since we know that the disciples were transformed and had amalgamized with the resurrection of Jesus because of Jesus death on the cross in their faith unto their deaths, then God deceived them too.

        Sure we can make up any conclusion about anything that we want to but we need to look at where the information leads us too.

        Also to say that the gospels are not reliable witnesses, although there are 4 corroborating gospels, and to discredit the NT because 2 of those gospels, mark and luke weren't the actual eyewitnesses ( of course they received their gospel testimonies from actual eyewitnesses) is just silly complaining when we know the quran is fourth-hand testimony at best - given of an angel, then muhammed, then later on those that recorded what muhammed told them and what was selected by Uthman.
        A single source compared to multiple sources in the new testament. Multiple attestation and corroboration of evidence with eyewitness testimonies is good convicting evidence in any court room.

        1. profile image56
          paarsurreyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          Jesus prophesied correctly about himself that he will not die (on the Cross) a death of a false messenger prophet of the Creator God; but the Christians don't believe his prophecy; they deny it.

          1. profile image0
            brotheryochananposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            Chapter and verse please.

            1. profile image56
              paarsurreyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              Matthew 12:38-40

              [38] Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered him, saying: Master we would see a sign from thee. [39] Who answering said to them: An evil and adulterous generation seeketh a sign: and a sign shall not be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet. [40] For as Jonas was in the whale's belly three days and three nights: so shall the Son of man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.

              http://www.drbo.org/chapter/47012.htm

              And Jonah did not die in the belly of fish; he died when he went to his people in Ninive; Jesus therefore could not die on the Cross as per his prophecy.

              1. EmVeeT profile image73
                EmVeeTposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                Taken from your reference:

                [38] Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered him, saying: Master we would see a sign from thee. [39] Who answering said to them: An evil and adulterous generation seeketh a sign: and a sign shall not be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet. [40] For as Jonas was in the whale's belly three days and three nights: so shall the Son of man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.

                JESUS did not prophecy "not dying on the Cross of Calvary" as you have interpreted here. HE Was saying HE Would spend three days in the heart of the earth... having been dealt the blow of death, only TO RISE AGAIN. The fact that Jonah did not die in the belly of the whale is the perfect analogy, because just as Jonah was spewed out of the whale's mouth onto the shores of Nineveh, so JESUS Rose from the grave, the metaphorical belly of the earth.

                Unfortunately, you've taken this to mean something it does not. If you like, you might try doing some studies pertaining to the actual meanings attached to JESUS' Words. There are Word Studies you can do, Hebrew, Greek and even other Ancient Semitic Languages. Check it out. You may find there is much in the actual translations that cannot be directly interpreted, but is transliterated as best the translators can... this is the reason for so many translations... and the reason for so many interpretations. Unfortunately, some interpretations are dangerous.. that is why there needs to be an ongoing relationship with G'D. HE Instructs, Leads and Guards the heart of HIS People, toward TRUTH. Everything false falls away when HE IS In the equation. Without HIM there is room for so much to be misunderstood, misrepresented, misinterpreted.

                Hope this helps you.

                G'D BLESS Sir, (forgive me if you are not a gentleman... it's hard to tell from the unisex non-photo...). smile

                1. profile image56
                  paarsurreyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  I have taken the exact meaning which Jesus meant; this is in alignment with his other statements also.

                  1. EmVeeT profile image73
                    EmVeeTposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                    ... and you know because you have a relationship with G'D Almighty, you read The Holy Bible every day, you spend hours praying to this One you consider to understand so well...?

                    Please, if this is true, explain His Intention to me more explicitly. I invite you.

                    G'D BLESS you...

                  2. profile image0
                    brotheryochananposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                    the clue to proper interpretation of this verse is
                    "Master we would see a SIGN from thee"
                                  and what is a sign?
                    a sign is an indicator, not an exact replica,  which commonly has a symbol or word that conveys a meaning or points to something.
                    John 2:18   Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What SIGN show You unto us, seeing that thou does these things?
                      John 2:19   Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
                      John 2:20   Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
                      John 2:21   But he spake of the temple of his body.


                    To the Jews of this time a meteor streaking through the night sky was not a sign of a meteor streaking through the night sky but of terrible things to come. The meteor in fact represented the troubles that would follow its sighting. Jonas being inside the special fish prepared of God represented Jesus being buried in the ground for three days as the  tearing down of the temple example, says. The emergence of Jonah from the fish speaks, indicates, points to, jesus rising from the grave or from the earth as is mentioned.

                    Matthew 12:40
                    ....so shall the Son of man be in the heart of the EARTH three days and three nights. 


                    or how about this one
                      Luke 11:29   And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a SIGN; and there shall no SIGN be given it, but the SIGN of Jonas the prophet.
                      Luke 11:30   For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation. 


                    The sign is saying:     3 days of burial (in the earth) and then a resurrection.

                    Psalms 22:16   For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

                    psalm 22       a messianic  prophecy psalm
                    notice the first line:
                    Psalms 22:1   My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? 
                    words from the cross in a messianic psalm.

                    You have indeed as EmVeeT says, misinterpreted.

                    1. profile image56
                      paarsurreyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                      I have interpreted as Jesus meant it; he clearly hinted going to the lost sheep of Israel; so he went when he got saved from dying a cursed death on Cross:

                      Mirza Ghulam Ahmad- the Promised Messiah says in this connection:

                      Let it be noted that though Christians believe that Jesus (peace be on him) after his arrest through the betrayal by Judas Iscariot, and crucifixion — and resurrection — went to heaven, yet, from the Holy Bible, it appears that this belief of theirs is altogether wrong. Matthew (chapter 12, verse 40) says that just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the fish, so the Son of Man shall be three days and three nights in the bowels of the earth. Now it is clear that Jonah did not die in the belly of the fish; the utmost that happened was that he was in a swoon or a fit of fainting.

                      The holy books of God bear witness that Jonah, by the grace of God, remained alive in the belly of the fish, and came out alive; and his people ultimately accepted him. If then Jesus (on whom be peace) had died in the belly of the ‘fish’, what resemblance could there be between a dead man and the one who was alive, and how could a living one be compared with one dead? The truth rather is, that as Jesus was a true prophet and as he knew that God, whose beloved he was, would save him from an accursed death, he made a prophecy in the form of a parable, revealed to him by God, in which he hinted that he would not die on the Cross, nor would he give up the ghost on the accursed wood; on the contrary, like the prophet Jonah, he would only pass through a state of swoon.

                      In the parable he had also hinted that he would come out of the bowels of the earth and would then join the people and, like Jonah, would be honoured by them. So this prophecy too was fulfilled; for Jesus, coming out of the bowels of the earth, went to his tribes who lived in the eastern countries, Kashmir and Tibet, etc. viz. the ten tribes of the Israelites who 721 years before Jesus, had been taken prisoner from Samaria by Shalmaneser, King of Assur, and had been taken away by him.

                      Ultimately, these tribes came to India and settled in various parts of that country. Jesus at all events must have made this journey; for the divine object underlying his advent was that he should meet the lost Jews who had settled in different parts of India; the reason being that these in fact were the lost sheep of Israel who had given up even their ancestral faith in these countries, and most of whom had adopted Buddhism, relapsing, gradually into idolatry. Dr. Bernier, on the authority of a number of learned people, states in his Travels that the Kashmiris in reality are Jews who in the time of the dispersal in the days of the King of Assur had migrated to this country.

                      In any case it was necessary for Jesus (peace be on him) to find out the whereabouts of these lost sheep, who had, on coming to this country, India, become merged into the other people. I shall presently adduce evidence that Jesus (peace be on him) did in fact come to India and then, by stages, travelled to Kashmir, and discovered the lost sheep of Israel among the people who professed the Buddhist faith and that these people ultimately accepted him, just as the people of the prophet Jonah accepted Jonah. And this was inevitable, for Jesus had said in so many words that he had been sent to the lost sheep of Israel.

                      http://www.alislam.org/library/books/je … a/ch1.html

                2. Slarty O'Brian profile image82
                  Slarty O'Brianposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  Yeah. the whale thing? Couldn't have happened. lol...

                  1. profile image0
                    brotheryochananposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                    before you give evidence as to why it could not have happened. Let me show you why it could have happened.
                    Jonah 1:15   So they took up Jonah, and cast him forth into the sea: and the sea ceased from her raging.
                      Jonah 1:16   Then the men feared the LORD exceedingly, and offered a sacrifice unto the LORD, and made vows.
                      Jonah 1:17   Now the LORD had PREPARED a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.
                      Jonah 2:1   Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,

                    PREPARED - no ordinary fish. a special fish designed to do a specific duty, at the right time and in the right place.

                    1. Slarty O'Brian profile image82
                      Slarty O'Brianposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                      Unfortunately that doesn't lend a lot of credibility to the story.

              2. Chris Neal profile image75
                Chris Nealposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                That's an interesting misrepresentation. Points for originality.

                1. profile image0
                  brotheryochananposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  perhaps you can get out of your armchair and explain more

    3. mhaydock profile image72
      mhaydockposted 7 years ago

      It's a simple answer. God doesn't want faith to be complicated. God originally covenanted with the Hebrews to atone for their sins with many type of sacrifices, burnt, blood, grain, drink, etc. for different kind of sins. But those sacrifices had to be freely given, with a proper heart and without trying to "trick" God by given less than the best they had to offer. Hence, sacrificial giving. Today, when we tithe, it is sacrificial giving as well from a heart in the right place. So, when it became obvious that we were a stubborn people, unwilling to serve God and God alone, because that was his first commandment, to have no other gods besides him, because there are lesser gods (demons to be exact), because of this, God chose to manifest himself in the form of a man to be born unto a virgin, to live, love, suffer and die among us, living without sin because it was God who came to earth as Jesus, not a separate man as we would think of it, but as God the Son. And in doing so, he gave a NEW covenant to the people to replace the requirements of the law which were based on works (you, know, be good enough, do this, get in to heaven, hopefully) and replaced it with a promise based on faith. When Jesus went to the cross, and I know this is hard to wrap your head around, but God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are One - God in three persons - like the phases of matter but the same element (water as liquid, gas, and solid but still water in a different form with a different name), it was God Himself who took the sin of the entire world past, present and future upon Himself and promised, yes PROMISED, because that's what a covenant is and God NEVER breaks a promise, that whoever would admit that they were a sinner and believe that Jesus died once and for all for the sins of the world, that by shedding His blood as the old covenant required, not murder, but sacrificial giving as a lamb to slaughter for He was the spotless Lamb of God, that whoever would believe this would be saved and eternally forgiven from their sins both the ones they had committed and the ones they would commit. In through faith in Jesus atone for their sins and be welcomed in the family of God to live with Him forever when Christ returns. Was Jesus a man? Yes. Did he die a violent death? Yes. Did God weep for the sins of the world, for a stubborn stiff-necked people he loved with all his heart and desperately wanted to repent and come back in to fellowship with him? Yes. When we sacrifice in our tithes and offerings, when the ancient Hebrews sacrificed on the alter for their sins, it was sacrificial giving. It had to be the very best of their herds and flocks, spotless, the first fruits of their harvest, because God wants our best, not mediocre attempts to just do good. So in order for God to forever forgive our sins, he offered his best, Himself on the alter for us. What a picture that is of love to the fullest, that a God who  love us so much despite that fact we are ugly to him, call him names, ignore him, refuse to read his love letters to us (the Bible), dispute his very existence, and yet he loves us unconditionally. He hates what we do, but he still loves us and is willing to forgive us if we just ask by faith for Jesus to come in to our hearts and be the Lord of our lives. If you're reading this and you have never asked Jesus in to your heart, maybe you know who Jesus is, or maybe you were raised in a church, perhaps even go every Sunday but have never taken your heart to the alter and freely given it, you can do that now. You can be eternally certain that you'll be in Heaven when you die and be with God forever! Because Heaven is real and he has prepared a place just for you if you want it. But he won't force you, You have to chose to. So if you're ready, let's pray together. I've already prayed this for you, so as God's word says, when two or more come together and agree in prayer, if it's God's will it will be done. And I know it's God will that none should be lost, that all would come to the Kingdom of Heaven. So take a deep breath and let's pray:
      Father, I'm coming to you in faith. I don't really know you but I really want to. I admit that I am a sinner, and in the Name of Jesus, I ask for your forgiveness. Father, forgive my sins. I accept that Jesus died on the cross for my sins and paid the price forever for them with His own blood. It's His blood that now covers my sin and forever erases it. I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, that He died and rose again and sits at your right hand in Heaven. I ask you Jesus, please come in to my heart, I invite you freely and ask You to be the Lord of my life. Holy Spirit, I ask you to fill me and guide me, to baptize me with your presence. Father, thank you for sending Jesus to die for me that I would be forgiven and help now from this moment forward to live for You. In Jesus Name, Amen.
      Congratulations and welcome Brother or Sister! If you prayed this prayer, please let me know. There are lots of great resources out there and I can help you if you need.
      Love in Christ

      1. peterxdunn profile image61
        peterxdunnposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        And when we look around the world today we children dying of hunger, children being born malformed because their parents were exposed to radioactive substances in the Iraq war. We see wars being fought on the basis of lies. We see wars being fought for oil and to further enrich the 1%. We also see banks using public money to speculate on 'food futures' which is driving up prices.

        If your jesus died to absolve men of sin he wasted his time. Don't you think?

        1. mhaydock profile image72
          mhaydockposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          He died not to remove sin from the world but to give humanity the only way to come back into right fellowship with God. Sin entered the world because of the fall of Adam and Eve. It was because of the fall that we have all the junk you mention. God is not an unjust God. He operates consistently. Because he created man to have free will, when man chose to disobey God and eat the only fruit God told him not to eat, he chose to step away from fellowship from God. God is a good father with only the best in mind for his children. He wanted to protect Adam and Eve and so he gave them very specific instructions as any good father would do. But when children disobey, there are consequences, and good parents are consistent in follow through with the consequences that are set forth. God gave man many chances and opportunities to come around right. But as long as we chose everything but God, sin continued to rule in our lives and in our bodies. The sickness we face, the horrible unthinkable crimes, these are the result of man being born into the sin the follows every generation since Adam and Eve. And until Christ returns to take back the world from sin once and for all, sin will always be a part of our world. It is the wages of sin and death. I know, you're next argument is what about babies and children who commit no sin. It's not about committing sin, it's about being born in to a world where sin is in charge. Satan has been allowed to rule the earth until Christ returns. But, God is in charge and in control of everything. God also operates as I said with a just and consistent hand. Satan is the prince of the world, prince with a little "p". When Adam and Eve sinned, they allowed satan to become more important than God and invited satan in to the world. Sin can't control your life until you allow it to. Sin also opened the door for death and decay of our fleshly bodies, something God didn't intend for Adam and Eve. He created mankind to walk in fellowship with him for eternity. That's why he gave us Jesus as the way out. Let me ask you, if you had a wayward child, wouldn't you do everything possible to bring them back around? Or would you just give up on them, stop loving them and say, oh well, he/she is just junk and stubborn. Who cares what happens to them. Would your sacrifice yourself for the good of your child? And would that be a waste of time? If it's said of our soldiers that they made the ultimate sacrifice that we might have freedom, would you say to their families that they wasted their time?
          Christ didn't waste His time. And whether you think He did or not, He's still going to be in love with you for all eternity and will grieve and cry tears of sorrow for you until you turn your heart to Him. Never blame God for the actions of people. It's not God's fault. He gave us the free will to choose. Even the angels had free will. It's why satan was cast out of Heaven, for choosing to be like God out of his own pride. That's why following the temptations of this world are so very dangerous and lead to all the things you mention. I believe that centuries of wrong choices have also caused the human body to become sicker and we destroy our environment more and more every day, hurting the innocent through poison. And yes, wars are always fought on the basis of lies. satan is the father of lies and he lies to people every second of the day driving them to acts of war not just on the battlefield but in their own homes and even to themselves. Image for a moment if you would if the 1% chose to turn to Christ and let Him be the Lord of their lives instead of their own greed and pride. And then just imagine if the 99% followed. What if we did as John Lennon suggested and we had no religion, just pure relationship with God, no Heaven or Hell to die for because by choosing Christ we ushered His return and Heaven on earth became real. Imagine.
          Just imagine
          By the way, God loves you Peter. I dare you to love Him back and see what happens

          1. autumn18 profile image67
            autumn18posted 7 years agoin reply to this

            I'm curious about something. You indicate that God created mankind with free will and that all the evil in the world is because of humans disobeying God and the fall of man (and Satan apparently). I've heard many many times the phrase "God has a plan for all of us", us in the individual sense. How can we disobey God if he has a plan for each of us?

            1. mhaydock profile image72
              mhaydockposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              Interesting question the way you posed it. God's plan for everyone has always been for us to be in fellowship with him. Without going in to a discussion on predestination which begs another discussion altogether  suggesting that nothing matters because God has it all planned ahead of time...the fact is, God knew you before you were even born and had a plan for your life. God didn't create us to be robots. He gave us free will so that we would love him by choice. That's the kind of God he is. Would you want somebody to love you because you made them love you or because they chose to love you? Because he also gave us free will to choose our path in life, it means that we can choose the path he has laid out for us, a plan for good (here I go, I promise not to thump you with Scripture! but this one is important) Jeremiah 29:11-14
              "...For i know the plans i have for you," declares the lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and future. Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and i will listen to you. you will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. i will be found by you," declares the lord, "and will bring you back from captivity or will restore your fortunes. i will gather you from all the nations and places where i have banished you," declares the lord, "and will bring you back to the place from which i carried you into exile." God's plan is for a hope and a future. That doesn't mean we'll be rich and never get sick and die. It means that if we follow his plan, a trust him, accept Jesus as I discussed, then we have the hope of everlasting life. This world is a temporary home until we go home to be with God. But I digress. To disobey God is to stray from his intended path which starts with the ultimate in disobedience, denying him and living only for ourselves. As a parent, I want my children to be happy and successful. I've raised them along a path that should assist them in that direction, instructing them in the ways of the Lord, doing all I can do. But they have free will and often disobey my best intentions for them. As a result, they often come to disappointment and in some cases, harm. God tries to tell us the stove is hot. He even whispers "hot" when we get too close. But we don't like to listen because the lure of the stove and the glowing burner is enticing and we are drawn to reach for it only to get burned. God will let you disobey him if you want to. But the result will be disappointment. You may have temporary pleasure and what you feel is fulfillment. But there will always be a God sized hole in your heart that you will long to have filled. You may not know at this point that it's God you need in order to fill it. But if you are brave enough to ask him to reveal himself to you in your heart, I promise you he will. But he won't force himself in to your life. You have to invite him. He'll knock, but he won't open the door. You have to open it. Dear Autumn, God is waiting for you to open the door. I ran from him all my life and tried to fill it with everything imaginable. But always, there was a hole in my heart. One day I asked God what he wanted from me. He replied very audibly, "Pray to me". I did. And he sent an amazing man in to my life who gave me the rest of the truth and very shortly God set me free when I accepted Christ in to my heart. My life has never been the same. It's not perfect, and I have problems like everyone else. But I have God and a hope for the future without the bondage of the junk I was in to that left me empty and alone in a room full of people. God's plan for you is the same as it is for everyone, to be in right relationship with him. As for you earthly plan, he has a plan for that to that will glorify his purpose in your life. Once you take a step toward God, and trust in him, and him alone, he will give you the desires of your heart, he will place in your heart a desire to pursue those paths, career, relational, financial, etc. that you will think are your own ideas but were his all along!
              Love you! And thanks for a great question

              1. EmVeeT profile image73
                EmVeeTposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                Hey MHaydock (hope I got that right)...

                Great going, Girl! May G'D Grant you the enthusiasm to continue meeting their questions head on. I'm on the sideline praying.

                Blessings to you... smile

              2. autumn18 profile image67
                autumn18posted 7 years agoin reply to this

                Thank you for taking the time to reply mhaydock. I can't say I fully agree with all of it but that's ok. I think everyone needs to find what's right for them and be happy and fulfilled. You appear to be and that's great. I also am fulfilled and questioning things in life, religious or not, is just who I am lol. Again thanks for the response.

                1. mhaydock profile image72
                  mhaydockposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  My pleasure. Just remember you can feel fulfilled but it will still leave you wanting. Hence those questions. That's the wanting. In your search, if your heart is willing, pray and ask for the truth. Keep seeking. I'll pray 4 I too

              3. Slarty O'Brian profile image82
                Slarty O'Brianposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                If god know what you will do before you are born you have no free will. Sorry. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

                1. emrldphx profile image60
                  emrldphxposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  I'm sorry Slarty, but I disagree with that.

                  When I take my son(he's young) to buy a new car( he loves Hot Wheels), I give him a choice of 3 cars. He knows he can only pick one, so he looks at them all, and grabs one to show which he wants.

                  I know that if I include 1 red car and no other red cars, he will pick the red car. Every time.

                  It doesn't take away his free will, it's just that I know him well enough. Of course his preferences will change, and when they do, I will know him then too.

                  Just imagine how well God must know us. It doesn't take away our free will though.

                  1. Slarty O'Brian profile image82
                    Slarty O'Brianposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                    That's not the same thing at all. The classic Christian opinion is that god knows all. Some suggest he knows whether you will end up in hell or not before you are born.

                    The point is if god can know your future with absolute certainty, you have no free will.

                    Not because a god knows it, but because it can be known. It is then written in stone and you can't do a thing about it to change it. If you could that would mean god does not know all in advance because the future can not be known with certainty.

                    You have only those two choices. You can anticipate your son's desires but you can not know them with absolute certainty, and that is what we are talking about.

                    1. emrldphx profile image60
                      emrldphxposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                      My example is an imperfect one because I am imperfect. But myself, being very much so not-all-knowing, I know what my son will choose. It's not perfect, but it demonstrates a principle.

                      God could know where we will end up, but we still have our free will...

                      I know that if my wife were given the choice between a million dollars and 50 dollars, she would take the million.

                      God knows everything that can be known... so he should know for certainty. That doesn't mean his knowledge of the thing defines it.

                    2. aguasilver profile image71
                      aguasilverposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                      You hold the chisel, how you write your life is what God has seen at the end, but because you do have free will, you can change how that ends.

                      But you need to GIVE the chisel to God, and let Him do the work.

                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhfUzodLRvk

                  2. autumn18 profile image67
                    autumn18posted 7 years agoin reply to this

                    I think there are different types of "Gods plan" here. The post Slarty quoted mentioned God having our lives planned out before we were born. In that regard I agree with Slarty that it doesn't seem to fit with free will.

                    1. emrldphx profile image60
                      emrldphxposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                      So, there are two options.

                      1 - Our lives were planned out, so God knows where we will end up.
                      2 - God knows us so well(as part of his knowing everything) that he knows where we will end up.

                      Number 1, yes, no free will.
                      Number 2, yes free will.

            2. aguasilver profile image71
              aguasilverposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              Ever had a plan yourself that got altered by what other people did?

              Just because God has a plan for us, doesn't mean we can't spoil the plan (and our eternity) by doing our will rather than His.

              Just means the plan unfolds easier when we do His will.

              1. Slarty O'Brian profile image82
                Slarty O'Brianposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                So god does not know all and see all in advance? We can mess up his plans?

                That would make him less than omnipotent.

                1. EmVeeT profile image73
                  EmVeeTposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  Mr. O'Brian...

                  You are so very good at twisting.... That doesn't mean G'D Doesn't Know in advance. HE Knows... you're the one who doesn't... neither do any of the others around us, or in the heavens and in the depths of hell beneath us, know what is unfolding.

                  HE Knows, either way, whichever path you select. HE Knows everything...even what you will select. He Doesn't Limit your options though.

                  BLESSINGS to you... great BLESSINGS I pray. Amen.

                  1. Slarty O'Brian profile image82
                    Slarty O'Brianposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                    If he already knows then my future is set in stone. No twisting about it. simple logic. And if we can't know how do you know that he does? You frankly can't.

                    1. emrldphx profile image60
                      emrldphxposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                      If God knows us well enough to know everything we will ever do, and hence know where we will end up, then the only way you could say our future is 'set in stone' is that we have set our own future in stone by being us.

                      As I have demonstrated before, knowledge of an event doesn't cause it, so knowledge of where you will end up doesn't cause it to happen.

                    2. EmVeeT profile image73
                      EmVeeTposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                      You have a choice to select HIS Will for you or your own will for you. The entire platform of life is one that is being played out for a purpose... HIS PURPOSE. Ultimately, HIS Will will be done, whether or choose to participate in the culminating factors or not; however, HE Would never force you to be a part of HIS Will... only the enemy does that, using temptations and other strategies to which humanity is vulnerable.

                      The enemy doesn't know what lies ahead though. Satan is not omnipotent, omniscient, or omnipotent. Satan is not G'D's equal. The rebellion he instigated in heaven is not going to end in his usurping the Kingdom of G'D, or taking Sovereign Rule.

                      I know what I know by divine revelation, by reading the Scriptures, by caring to know enough, to ask HIM, by waiting to hear from HIM when I need an answer, and by testing where that answer comes from when it does arrive.

                      Mr. O'Brian... all of what I am saying means nothing to you. You cannot hear from HIM, neither can you know what I know with the same certainty, because you live to mock, negate and rebuff all that which pertains to HIM. In so doing, you have shut yourself off from HIM.

                      If HE Were to desire to reach through to you, in the manner which you demand... by  SHOWING HIMSELF to you... then you would know what I know; however, HE Doesn't have to do it. The fact that you demand this from HIM is a joke.

                      You... a mere man... expecting THE LIVING G'D to try to appease your invalidation of all that HE IS, all that HE LIVES to accomplish... you can't even give yourself to thinking how completely ridiculous this is, because you've closed yourself off to HIM.

                      The only one laughing with you, and especially 'at you' is the devil, because all you are working to prove substantiates his efforts. As I said in another post, you are doing his work for him.

                      As sorrowful as I feel to say so, when you are before G'D ALMIGHTY you will have no excuses... especially considering the depth, and comprehensive value of this Forum Thread... it may be filled with nonsense, but you and several others here are proving beyond any doubt that you fully understand the significance of what you are saying, the mockery you are making of HIM and the example you are setting for those who are too confused to clarify the issue independently, or those who know how to discern for themselves any semblance of truth.

                      The fact that you persist in denying G'D'S Existence and the fact that some of us have repeatedly tried to make sense of HIS Existence to you, only to be berated for our beliefs (not directly each time), or to have our comments twisted, ridiculed, purposely misinterpreted, and/or contorted... the fact that these same individuals feel so powerful to be able to make those who are unsure, or those who are not well informed look silly or sound featherbrained... all these elements are part of the reasons why G'D WILL NOT meet you where you are.

                      HIS MERCIES Extend in manifestations that are more amazing than words can express, but I would be a fool and even irresponsible to continue wanting to post examples of those manifestations to you or the others who are inclined toward atheism or pantheism, or whatever...

                      I'm not giving up on you though. G'D IS SO GOOD! ... SO GOOD! That HE MAY Have plans for you that will cause you to change your mind none-the-less. Why?

                      Why not?

                      I don't know what he has planned, but what I do know is that HE IS ABLE to do things neither of us have a clue HE Has Prepared. If/when HE Does those who are recipients of HIS Extension Will by no means question WHO IS In Control then.

                      G'D BLESS you, Mr. O'Brian...

    4. EmVeeT profile image73
      EmVeeTposted 7 years ago

      You say:

      You carry on deluding yourself if you wish. But if the warmongers get their way you will see many of the people that you know die. If you have any children that are of military age then you really should be worried.

      The fact is: if what we believe were to cause 'the warmongers" to decide to annihilate us, is that not part of the very prophecy you are so keen to say was a failure?

      Believers in Yeshua fully expect persecution for their faith. We are not oblivious to the changes in our world that are fixated on permitting every foul practice except that one they consider intolerant, because it refuses to compromise a standard.

      I don't have children who are in the military. I do have children who will be vulnerable to any vicious attacks if 'the warmongers get their way'; but tell me, Sir, is this new? Are there not people in various parts, all over this globe, who already suffer unspeakable torture and persecution as a result of their uncompromising faith.

      Now think, just for a minute: Would you be willing to die, or to watch your children, whom you love more than you love your own life, for something that is a 'delusion'?

      I think not.

      I, for one, know what I believe; and I can only hope and pray that if the time arrives, in my lifetime, when persecution, torment and horror were to be applied as a method of 'forcing me to negate my faith, I would be strong enough NOT to fail G'D, but to receive that persecution with the same attitude and meek power the martyrs of old received it. In all things I pray HIS NAME IS GLORIFIED through me, despite whatever heinous structures are projected against me. Why? Because G'D IS REAL. I would never lay my life down for a figment of my imagination, or a lie. Neither would any, who like me, may be caught in the fray.

      G'D BLESS you, Sir... may HE BLESS you abundantly, mercifully... tenderly. In JESUS of Nazareth. Amen.

      1. peterxdunn profile image61
        peterxdunnposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        The war that is coming will not be in defence of your faith - it will be fought to further enrich those that are already rich: the 1%. You believe that it is your faith that is under attack; it isn't, but that is what they want you to believe. And you bought it. Now wake up and grow up before you get us all killed.

        1. EmVeeT profile image73
          EmVeeTposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          Mr. Dunn (I hope I have that right)...

          I would never get you killed. However, we will all die. That is the culmination of life. That 1% will continue to exist, with agendas that we cannot hinder, because we're helpless to do so in a fallen world.

          I haven't been deluded into believing my 'faith' is under attack. Read the comments in this Thread... my faith is under attack...

          I'm awake. So awake, it would scare you sometimes. I'm sorry you see me (and my kind) as a threat though.

          That's actually funny. Nero blamed the Christians for the 'war' he caused too.

          1. peterxdunn profile image61
            peterxdunnposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            Dear deluded, it is your ignorance of the Real World and the forces that drive it - the forces that use religion to dictate your perception of the World that they want you to see; a world in which they are invincible - that constitutes the threat.

            You personally are no threat - it is the ignorance that you share with others that lets the rich and powerful get away with murder.

            Thankfully people are now waking up to the threat that the 1% represent. People are now marching and demonstrating for change - they will eventually take the 'agendas that we cannot hinder' and tear them to pieces.

            Religion is now gradually losing its grip on the minds of men. It might not be apparent to some; but then these are the people who could never see the writing on the wall anyway. The old hierarchies are beginning to fall and the divine right of kings to rule has finally been broken.

            Welcome to a brave new world.

            1. EmVeeT profile image73
              EmVeeTposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              Thank you for your compliments. You are too kind.

              I'll just have to live with my ignorance. You live with yours...

              I pray you go far in your efforts to 'tear to pieces the agendas of the 1%'.

              It is a brave new world. I'm happy to be a part of it. I'm glad you're a part of it. Most of all, I'm happy to know G'D is in CONTROL. So, I don't have to burden myself with any 'agendas'... I leave it to HIM.

              I can see you really don't like me. No problem. I'm okay with it.

              ...and I'm glad 'religion is losing it's grip on the minds of men'. I hate religion  myself. ...

              We have more in common than you know...

              Have a good day, Mr. Dunn.

              G'D BLESS you in all you do.

              1. peterxdunn profile image61
                peterxdunnposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                Where do you get 'I don't like you' from? I don't know you. I haven't a view either way on whether you are a likeable person or not.

                I disagree with you on all issues discussed here - just as you disagree with me. On that - I think - we can agree.

                1. EmVeeT profile image73
                  EmVeeTposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  smile

              2. profile image0
                brotheryochananposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                You rock sister!  smile

      2. mhaydock profile image72
        mhaydockposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        You rock, Sister!

        1. peterxdunn profile image61
          peterxdunnposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          Don't call me sister.

        2. emrldphx profile image60
          emrldphxposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          She didn't call you sister

    5. RoseofSharon2 profile image60
      RoseofSharon2posted 7 years ago

      Hey, we don't understand why GOD did what He did. But the Bible explains it all and it makes perfect sense, if you believe, it's very logical.

      1. profile image56
        paarsurreyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        How could it be logical; it is sheer cruelty to kill one's son? Do you have a son or a daughter? Is it logical of you to kill anyone of them?

      2. autumn18 profile image67
        autumn18posted 7 years agoin reply to this

        You say we don't understand why and in the next sentence you say it makes perfect sense and that it's logical. I'm not sure I understand that.

    6. EmVeeT profile image73
      EmVeeTposted 7 years ago

      Where did this come from?

      You must have your own manual on Jesus, one I've never heard exists...

      Unbelievable.

      The sad thing is, that for every wrong precept I read about on this Forum Thread, there's another more facetious one on the horizon.

      I believe there are so many who don't know what they're talking about. A matter of uneducated guesses being laid down as truth. I'm truly sad to know such erroneous teachings spread as easily as they do.

      I'd like to say, "I'm done with it...", but I can't help wonder if there is some gullible, seeker out there reading some of the unsubstantiated drivel presented on these pages.

      If so... do your own homework. Don't believe anything anyone else tells you. Find out for yourself. Ask G'D. Question HIM all you like. Take Him to every length you can think of and then keep going. HE Can answer for HIMSELF if you want TRUTH.

      If you're too lazy, stubborn or otherwise inclined and want to continue reading here... G'D BLESS you. G'D ALONE CAN. .. it won't be easy to discern truth from lie, especially when so many haven't done their homework.

      BLESSINGS to anyone who reads this, IN THE MAJESTIC and POWERFUL NAME of JESUS, THE SON of GD, THE FAITHFUL WITNESS, THE FIRSTBORN of the DEAD, and RULER of The Kings of the earth. Amen.

      1. profile image0
        brotheryochananposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        You are right. Many of those against the bible and God do spout off about things they have no idea of. Most are angry and need christianity to be false. Many have listened to bad theories and taken on chagrined views. They can't help it, deception is just that, deception but coupled with anger and failure, well, thats trouble that needs some attention.
        Good to be here.
        Welcome aboard smile

        1. profile image52
          Rabgixposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          lol you people are psychotic

          1. profile image0
            brotheryochananposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            Thankyou
            I see you need some attention

    7. gabgirl12 profile image75
      gabgirl12posted 7 years ago

      Yes autumn. You are right. We live in a system. The system owns us and we have no say. We are born with a social security number that tracks everything that we do. And without that number there isnt much we can do.They are the authority. We can plead a case before the system like we can before God as well. No one on heaven or earth can take that away. Yes you have free will just like you have free will in any country to do what you want, within limits. The point of it is that most people focus on the fact that they have 'no power' in their lives and the concept of surrendering to that power bugs them considering that they never had any power to begin with from the moment they were born. We are all accountable, and we all surrender to our respective governments. And in that surrender its just like we would be if we 'sinned' against the government or in this case translation, we were to 'commit a crime worthy of a fine, or incarceration'. That fear thats instilled in us has us to respect those authorities for fear of imprisonment and losing our freedom. But we seldom look at those who function that 'want' our benefit. People see God as a dictator, and since He owns everything, a person's natural instinct is go 'oh yeah? think so? well I dont see him' and because they cant see him, perceive him, they are limited to what they can see, which is Christians. And when Christians dont lead by example, because we are not perfect they don't believe. God's word sais 'faith comes by hearing' and hearing the word of God. Children of God will continue to spread the word of God for as long as we are in existence. We aren't perfect, we do the best we can, but ultimately it's God who reveals himself to people and in the end that IS your free will. You can choose God's life and his plan or you don't. And the wages of sin is death. God's plan for you is in Jeremiah 29:11 He sais 'I know the plans I have for you, Plans to prosper you and not to harm you. Plans to give you a hope and a future'. But its up to you to allow him into your heart and clear the clutter of life, worry, fear and misunderstanding that you might have.

    8. WD Curry 111 profile image59
      WD Curry 111posted 7 years ago

      Why obsess about another's religion . . . unless you are up next for a human sacrifice?

    9. seanorjohn profile image77
      seanorjohnposted 7 years ago

      It would make more sense if it had happened in the teenage years. teenage sons can drive you to murder.

    10. profile image56
      paarsurreyposted 7 years ago

      It is sheer cruelty of the Christian god to even attempt to kill his own son.

     
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