Yes, I never did understand the point behind needing to kill his own son in order to forgive sins of others. Think that like most religions, sacrifice is just part of it. Apparently God is showing the sacrifice he is willing to make for us.
What sacrifice? Jesus did not die in any real sense. That he would rise was a forgone conclusion, particularly if he was god. Who sacrificed what, exactly?
The only way a sacrifice could have taken place is if Jesus was just a man with the hope or faith that he was sacrificing himself for the sins of all.
If he was god then it was all just theatrics.
Psychopaths often kill their children, the biblical god is just another one of them that does.
I dont have the answer to your question all I can say is the end justifies the means.Obviously Jesus is not upset about the whole murdering thing so why are you.Why would you want a God you could wrap your puny brain around. if that were the case he wouldnt be God you would. maybe thats the answer to the question. you just want to be God the sin that got man in the fallen state to begin with.The fact that you demand God to justify himself is the reason you do not have your answer.
seriously!!! did muhammid or how ever you spell it create heaven and earth I think not. No one had to talk me into beleiving just look around you God is seen in his creation.Nice try though.
Same god, different theme. If you were bought up in Afghanistan you would be spouting the quoran at me.
Now you see why God was adamant about the way He handled things.
Koran came into existence 325 yrs after Christ, so obviously it is an invention of man. This confusion about which religion is right is not brought about by God.
This is obviously a mandunnit.
And Hinduism started 5500 before "Christ." So technically, isn't Christianity also mandunnit?
You need to read my post again to see how your post is out of context.
I was replying to a koran issue.
But if i must now address your statement:
The egyptians had religion also, which God was adamantly against. Hindu also would have been in the same category as the egyptian religion, had it been important enough or popular enough or in that area, so it doesn't matter how old it is. Everything outside of the OT is mandunnit.
Christianity is the conclusion of the God of the Hebrew religion (OT) and the beginning of the NT, prophesied in the OT and expected, therefore NOT a mandunnit in that same sense in my prior post.
So Christianity is one true religion out of ever religion there ever was or will be? Mighty convenient we were born when we were.
you might need a bit more elaboration on that.
Going back in time to any part of the OT and Gods people would say the same thing - good to be us. When the Hebrews left Egypt they were a mixed multitude. After the fall of Jerichos' walls only Rahab and her family were saved. God has never stopped people from joining what he is doing and its the same today, even though there are still people on the outside, there will always be people on the outside, the less our society reminds people that God is available the fewer shall know. How shall they hear without a preacher? and this is what some beliefs want to do, they want to make sure people are on the outside.
More specifically, Christianity is so much better than the OT law system.
You're a fool and a perfect example of failed humanity. There is no way one to do things and the fact that there are an infinite number of deities proves that.
Being blind seems to suit you though.
I'd use the bible to mention to you that the book of leviticus is all about how God wants his people to worship and serve him... so one way, hmm lets see. I can go to the new testament and show how jesus called the religious people of that time, the pharisees, whited sepulchres. Why would he say that if they were on the right way.
There has always been one way to God.
I have enjoyed your statement full of blindness as it is.
And the new testament came on the scene 4,000 years after the Sumerians first worshiped Anu the Sky Father. All the gods that came thereafter are but pale imitations of Anu: God of the Dawn.
you get the same response as Rabgix
What both of you are not aware of is that the crucifixion of Jesus is a paramount occurrence that God would not just throw away and 325 yrs bring a new way into existence. The resurrection was the last of Gods intended paths and so in light of the death and resurrection of Christ no other way is going to quickly come into existence. We need to keep the koran in context with my prior post.
I'm in awe that you believe something imaginary so strongly...
Sun gods have come and gone - and then come again - a long time before jesus was around also. Mithras was also crucified and then resurrected. In fact crucifixion and resurrection are de rigueur for Sun Gods. Why don't you try comparing your johnny-come-lately with a few of these earlier models - just to see how he measures up?
You said it... Sun gods have come and gone -
Where are they now?
Though you will never believe me, HE Is my best Friend. HE Is Real. HE Is Alive.
How can we ever reconcile our differences? We cannot. Not using earthly means. After all, knowing HIM comes by 'faith' and you refuse to extend yourself in that direction.
I'm not certain if you're just too intellectual, or to full of pride. And, I'm not judging you when I say that. I can be rather pride filled myself... however, I've learned when to back down, in order to create the proper environment for G'D to fulfill HIS Purposes in me.
I have a question for you, not knowing if you can answer (not because you're ignorant of the answer, just because I don't know if you've participated in this application)...
When someone is being hypnotized, they are brought to clear their mind in order for 'the powers that be' to function in them. Why can't an atheist do this with G'D? ... setting aside everything you know, believe, trust, in order to truly allow Him access?
Perhaps, you have... I'm not judging you... I only know what I have experienced and I hurt for those who have yet to discover the Glory of An Almighty, Wondrous and All-Sufficient G'D.
Besides which, I remember the vehement battle in my brain when I first sought to KNOW HIM. I remember the unceasing struggle in my mind in order to be released from the stronghold of the enemy (another you don't believe in). Not until that struggle was exhausted, did I begin to sense THE POWER, PRESENCE and PEACE of G'D.
... I've said too much... I don't really want to be part of this conversation, but from time to time, I find myself too agitated to stay away.
May G'D Grant you a taste of His Presence... for HIS NAMES Sake, through JESUS, THE SACRIFICIAL LAMB, my ADVOCATE, my KING. Amen.
You are talking to an atheist here; please bear that in mind, spouting claptrap at me wont convince me of a damn thing.
Your jesus is just a plagiarized copy of older sun gods; indisputable fact, except to those that believe fairy tales.
I know who I'm commenting to. But I won't change the way I write, speak or think just because you think it's not valuable. Be respectful of that.
You don't have to love what I write... I don't necessarily like what you write either, but I haven't asked you to change it.
You're an atheist. Congratulations. You don't believe in fairy tales. Neither do I.
Yes. Our views are incongruent. So what? You can believe what you like about 'my JESUS'. I will believe what I like. That's the freedom I have. It's the freedom you have.
Some, want to take that freedom away from me. Please don't lump yourself in with them... or do... Your choice.
As far as I'm concerned... I will still ask G'D to BLESS you... you don't have to receive it. Be true to your creed. I am.
G'D BLESS you.
EmVeeT I respect you as a person and I know that your beliefs and views are sincerely held.
But you are here on the forums where everybody's beliefs: once stated, are open to be challenged.
And that is precisely what I am doing. I am challenging your beliefs. I will even go so far as to say that they aren't really YOUR beliefs. What you ascribe to is a mindset first manufactured in ancient Sumeria where gods were first invented by priest/kings: who didn't themselves believe in the religions that they created, to control the masses.
This is all that religion is. Sleight-of-hand and lies to beguile the unwary.
Sad. It's a strange thing too, that when I look at your profile picture, I assume it's you in the picture, your eyes are sad. What is see is no hope for anything beyond this life, this existence. And isn't it a lack of home in something greater than ourselves than we can even imagine the reason our world is the way that it is. If you want to point to ancient Sumeria as the root of religion, go ahead. I'm not a historian so I can't comment. I can't change your views, that's not my job either. That's God's job. Or maybe it's your job when you decide one way or another. I think the real delusion is the false happiness people are immersed in. If for a moment you can say that you are completely fulfilled and there is never a question or a longing in your heart that wishes what we write about might be true, because in reality, to be an atheist is to subscribe to at the least an antithesis in the non--existence of something, well we'll be getting in to philosophy now. But if you think you are truly and completely fulfilled, it's a delusion and you're lying to yourself. Because somewhere along the lines, everybody has questions and despite the resolve they boast about, I believe in the heart of their heart, in that space that only God can and will fill, is the longing for an undisputed truth that science can't explain, history can't legitimize, and seeing isn't the basis for believing. It's the illogical knowing in your knower that God was there all along, and he believed in you even when you wouldn't and he loves you now more than you can ever imagine even though you don't. And he knew you before you were even if you don't know him.
You can certainly read a lot into one little pic. You probably believe it all to be true as well.
'antithesis of non-existence'?
Okay, I don't want to spend any more time discussing rhetoric, but for the sake of argument, I am juxtaposing. Since an antithesis is the polar opposite of something, i.e. joy is the antithesis of sorrow, to believe in the non-existence of God or any deity, the question of existence has to first come into the discussion. History has already documented the existence of Jesus, but you are denying the deity of the Christ. I'm not sure if you doubt the very existence of the person of Jesus altogether or just who He claimed to be, which of course the Pharisees did a very good job of and charged Him with blasphemy, leading to His persecution and death on the cross, which is of course the very basis for Christian belief. So I stand the your very unbelief is in fact a juxtaposition that to not believe was to accept that others do and choose not to yourself. The very question of to be(lieve) or not to be(lieve), that is the question. Sorry, I couldn't resist. Well, it is the question. In order for anyone to be agnostic, or atheist, a question of belief has to be asked, and hopefully pondered thoughtfully and prayerfully for many people. Some people choose to ponder intellectually. But I would ask, how can you ponder the idea of God thoughtfully if the very nature of God or any god lies in the realm of prayer.
As for reading a lot in to a little picture. I do. Pictures don't lie. You do look sad and a bit empty, though I'm sure you have a great deal of satisfaction in your life. For me, sadness would come in the belief that this is it and death is nothingness. That would scare the hell out of me. Rather to believe in something than nothing at all I would suggest. I would be terrified of dying. Your eyes speak volumes to me, the scream in fact. And without reading any more of what you have written, they continue to tell a sad story of a man who got lost along the way and now lives for himself, though he probably does many kind things for his fellow man and has a deep capacity to love. I don't think you are soulless, just lost without God. So yes, I see much in you through the window to your soul.
...But you probably don't believe in souls either. That would pose an entirely new can of worms ready to be opened!
You're right, Mr. Dunn... religion is a sleight of hand. That's why I don't fall for religion.
In truth, you haven't got a clue what I believe. You've closed your mind to the possibilities. You're hardened. You're so sure you're right.
I'm sorry if my beliefs offend you. Yours don't offend me. They sadden me. However, they also motivate me. Yes. You. You motivate me...
The problem with Christianity is all the fakers out there... all the nominal followers who live as though they never professed a faith, as though they've never truly contemplated what they are...
At least you're honest about it. I admire that.
But, don't think you know me. Don't think yourself that clever.
BLESSINGS to you, in the NAME of my KING, JESUS of Nazareth, my Saviour, my Rock, my Strength. Amen.
I'm not saying that I know you. I'm saying that I have seen through the deception that enthrals you.
And it isn't just that your beliefs offend me - it is the reason why those beliefs were invented. Relgion allows the few to control the many.
Religion is mind control - it always has been.
Religion is all about power and who gets to exercise it. The new testament represents an attempt by one set of Jews: the Jews that wanted to wage war on Rome, to wrest control of the Judaic religion from another set of Jews: those that collaborated with the Roman rule of Judea.
All of these people sought temporal power here on Earth. The spirituality thing is just smoke and mirrors: a mirage to help them to usurp that power.
I understand your god in exactly the same way as the guys that invented him. I know what they were up to and what they wanted to achieve. With you they succeeded. With me they failed.
I practice a religion, in which I do not donate any money to my religious leaders, I do not submit to them in any fashion than my own desire for us to share ideas with each other(I don't sit at their feet for them to teach me. We sit around a table or in a room and discuss our personal beliefs with each other).
So how can you say all religion is about mind control and power?
Who invented Christianity? How do you know? Were you there to see that these things didn't happen?
How can I explain something you don't want to absorb? You say:
I'm saying that I have seen through the deception that enthrals you.
I'm not enthralled by deception. In fact, I spend more of my time trying to flush it out than you can imagine. My family calls me the 'conspiracy theorist'.
You say: And it isn't just that your beliefs offend me - it is the reason why those beliefs were invented. Relgion allows the few to control the many. Religion is mind control - it always has been.
What about entertainment? Why was it created? Why do athletes and celebrities make such an enormous amount of money? Could it be because they cause the masses to be dumbed down, diverted of their attention and led by the nose to work harder than a person should ever need to work, just so they can have what they will never have?
You say: Religion is all about power and who gets to exercise it. The new testament represents an attempt by one set of Jews: the Jews that wanted to wage war on Rome, to wrest control of the Judaic religion from another set of Jews: those that collaborated with the Roman rule of Judea.
Judaism existed long before the Romans. Sadly, over time Judaism became a structure of rules that G'D Didn't intend mankind to use as a rod of strings over HIS People. That's why JESUS Came into the world. HE Set things straight.
You say: All of these people sought temporal power here on Earth. The spirituality thing is just smoke and mirrors: a mirage to help them to usurp that power.
What power did JESUS Seek? HE Died for what HE Brought to humanity. HW didn't own one piece of furniture while HE Dwelt on this earth. His were not doctrines intended to imprison men, but a set of precepts designed to liberate them... to cause them to think for themselves, to bring them to understand that G'D is not an idol, HE IS G'D. HE cannot be placed in a box, or be subjected to the standards, ideals or configurations of men. HE IS G'D. HE Doesn't Change. HIS Wisdom is fathomless. HIS Reasons ungraspable.
You say: I understand your god in exactly the same way as the guys that invented him. I know what they were up to and what they wanted to achieve. With you they succeeded. With me they failed.
You're right. You do see the 'god' the guys who tried to use G'D to enslave men created him. Thing is, that's not the god I worship, follow and revere.
I don't mean to be so harsh as to say you're not clever. You obviously use your mind to analyze that which you see; you're obviously a very vibrant, intelligent person, but if anyone is deceived here, it isn't me. You and I are looking at two very diverse beings...
You're an atheist based on what the world of religion has presented for the taking. I'm a Believer in The LIVING G'D based on His Revelation of Himself to me, not what other people have fed me... if that were true I'd still be a Catholic.
I don't follow the masses, Mr. Dunn. I have a G'D Given brain; and for as long as HE Allows me to use it, I will. I question HIM. I struggle against aspects of my life that are unspeakable in so many ways. I concern myself about the ways this world is trading liberty for chains and throwing away the key. Like you, I fight against that which is being spoon fed to those who are too enamored with 'things' to see how deeply they're being encased in a detour of quicksand.
Mr. Dunn, it may well be that 'with (you) they failed'. I'm glad they did. I applaud you for your stance.
Just please... don't lump those who Believe in G'D all together. There are so many who don't really know what it is they believe; and when the time comes that they face persecution as a result, unfortunately, many, if not most of them won't last.
But I haven't based my faith on the precepts of men. I've based my faith on a personal interaction with my Redeemer. I KNOW in Whom it is I believe. More than that, I wish you could get to know HIM too.
Again, that's your choice; and right now, for a person who doesn't believe in G'D, you certainly are closing the door to HIM with a vehement bang... at the prodding of those same people you profess are influencing me...
Listen... you're right about Forums being the place where people challenge what is said. I get really irritated at having to explain what I believe or why. That's not your fault. I even get tired when I read nonsense posted by other so-called Christians... it makes me so angry to think they haven't given themselves over to discover what it is they really believe and why. If they did they wouldn't say the things they say. They wouldn't bother going into details that make no difference. But there is so much that is false to fall into; many cannot see their way clear.
My relationship is not with a religion. My relationship is with G'D, The Living, Loving, Holy G'D. You may not know HIM, but, at the risk of sounding so much more ignorant than I already do to you, HE EXISTS.
Forums like this don't clarify His Existence, they just make some hate HIM more, while others, who may have been on their way to knowing HIM, fall away for lack of answers that they should have been seeking on their own anyway.
I'm sorry if I've offended you by my faith. I am a Believer in JESUS, The Messiah intended to release Israel, G'D'S Chosen Priesthood, from slavery. Unfortunately, they digressed. So do many others on that journey.
I pray not to do so. I don't rely on others to keep me straight. I count on HIM. If/when HE were ever to fail HIMSELF, I would reanalyze my position. By the same token that some 'atheists' participating on this Thread want HIM to prove HIS Existence, HE, HIMSELF Would have to fail me, in order to change my heart and every inclination of my faith.
I know that won't happen. I'm certain. In the meantime, I pray your faith in faithlessness will grow you and nourish you; but from what I have read, your decision has simply left you sour, angry at anyone who doesn't agree with you and fearful of the future.
What can I say? I'm sorry you feel as you do; however, I continue to pray G'D BLESSES you. Whether you will ever come to face HIM during the temporal season that is your life, or not, I do not know. If you don't, I will not be pleased. Perhaps, I may consider that I too have failed... not G'D, but you...
You are an important person to HIM. You mean more than I can express. So, if I've upset you... I'm sorry, Mr. Dunn.
G'D BLESS you and KEEP you strong, through JESUS, my HOPE and SALVATION. Amen.
Oh don't worry. Jesus and Christianity will die just like every other major religion. Nothing lasts forever, its simply a matter of time.
I'm curious how you know god is real considering you've never seen, heard, smelled, felt, etc. this being at all. But heyyy
I'm curious how you know god is real considering you've never seen, heard, smelled, felt, etc. this being at all. But heyyy
You would be curious because "you" haven't... but you will... one day.
In the meantime, may HE BLESS you despite it all...
So this prophecy of yours will only become true when it is completed.
We will just have to wait and see
But the book of revelation disagrees with you.
Muslim is only surviving because it kills to survive.
Catholicism tried that and is being bit in the ... over it.
Christianity has only one set of footprints in the sand, but two are walking.
Stop misreading what I'm saying. I didn't claim that jesus sought power. I'm saying that the people: literate men, that invented jesus sought power.
Do you have proof of Jesus being an invention of man?
Yeah. some guys wrote him in a book. Like Harry Potter - but that was a woman.
Seriously. Do you have any proof that he wasn't?
If he was real why all the astrological references in Revelation?
For you to claim it is an invention of man, logically, you need to be the one to prove your claim. You can't shift the burden on us to prove it is real.
My proof is personal, meaning subjective, and can't be used as proof to you.
What do you mean about astrological references?
How is that proof?
You don't understand what 'proof' means, do you? Saying 'The Bible' somehow presents overwhelming evidence of... what exactly?
It presents overwhelming evidence that 1,740 posts and no hubs is a complete waste of bandwidth!
Showing overwhelmingly that aquasilver MUST focus on the individual in light of being able to form a coherent argument on the subject matter.
Subject matter? I have yet to see you address the subject matter, which I agree is difficult to do when you have to keep to one liners, this is a forum, not Twitter.
Ok, you claim the Bible is proof of an invention of man. Glad you are able to construct an argument with so little help...
Now, care to provide evidence for your claim? You do remember that to claim something is, or isn't, you have to provide evidence, don't you? Otherwise, it is one of your beloved logical fallacies, shifting the burden of proof.
LOL! The list below represents the "authors" of the Bible, note that they are all men?
Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy = Moses - 1400 B.C.
Joshua = Joshua - 1350 B.C.
Judges, Ruth, 1 Samuel, 2 Samuel = Samuel/Nathan/Gad - 1000 - 900 B.C.
1 Kings, 2 Kings = Jeremiah - 600 B.C.
1 Chronicles, 2 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah = Ezra - 450 B.C.
Esther = Mordecai - 400 B.C.
Job = Moses - 1400 B.C.
Psalms = several different authors, mostly David - 1000 - 400 B.C.
Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon = Solomon - 900 B.C.
Isaiah = Isaiah - 700 B.C.
Jeremiah, Lamentations = Jeremiah - 600 B.C.
Ezekiel = Ezekiel - 550 B.C.
Daniel = Daniel - 550 B.C.
Hosea = Hosea - 750 B.C.
Joel = Joel - 850 B.C.
Amos = Amos - 750 B.C.
Obadiah = Obadiah - 600 B.C.
Jonah = Jonah - 700 B.C.
Micah = Micah - 700 B.C.
Nahum = Nahum - 650 B.C.
Habakkuk = Habakkuk - 600 B.C.
Zephaniah = Zephaniah - 650 B.C.
Haggai = Haggai - 520 B.C.
Zechariah = Zechariah - 500 B.C.
Malachi = Malachi - 430 B.C.
Matthew = Matthew - A.D. 55
Mark = John Mark - A.D. 50
Luke = Luke - A.D. 60
John = John - A.D. 90
Acts = Luke - A.D. 65
Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon = Paul - A.D. 50-70
Hebrews = unknown, mostly likely Paul, Luke, Barnabas, or Apollos - A.D. 65
James = James - A.D. 45
1 Peter, 2 Peter = Peter - A.D. 60
1 John, 2 John, 3 John = John - A.D. 90
Jude = Jude - A.D. 60
Revelation = John - A.D. 90
How does something being written by man prove it is an invention of man? Have you ever heard of transcribing?
By your definition, the secretary who types up a letter for a boss invents the letter.
Because, women were sheep and had no say in such things.
What does that have to do with anything?
You didn't address the question. Just because a man writes something doesn't mean he invented it. Hence my example below.
The secretary writes the letter... but the secretary didn't come up with the letter. See how someone writing something doesn't prove that they are the ones who created the thought?
LOL! There wasn't anyone else around but men and women, unless you're going to tell us that animals can talk.
... or God.
If God were to tell(dictate) a prophet(secretary) what to write, then it wouldn't be an invention of man.
Ah yes, the answer from mythology.
Why not Thor? Why not Apollo? Why not Zeus? Why not Allah? Etc. Etc. Etc.
Have you read the Quran? It was written by men, who got their information from Chinese Whispers originating from a guy named Muhammad, who claimed that he went off by himself and Allah dictated the words to him. Sound familiar?
Why do you always jump off topic?
You asked what a letter had to do with anything. I gave an example of a boss speaking to a secretary who writes a letter. The boss is the originator.
I use this example to show only that it is possible for a written document to originate somewhere other than the person who wrote it.
I did this because you claimed that the fact that the Bible was written by men means it is an invention of man.
Are you incapable of following that line of thought?
LOL! Yes, you used a real world example in another ridiculous attempt to support your Gods existence. Funny stuff, dude.
Nope. Still wrong. I simple showed a hypothetical situation to show your proof to be erroneous.
Once again, you said the following.
1 - The bible is proof that Jesus is an invention of man.
2 - It proves Jesus is an invention because it was written by men.
Your reasoning is:
A - If a person writes something, they invented it.
I disproved your reasoning with the example of a boss speaking to a secretary and the secretary writing down the boss's words. Your reasoning doesn't work. The words are the words of the boss, even though the secretary wrote them down.
I really think you are capable of understanding this, but you are either so busy trolling, being so convinced that you have reality figured out, or being delusional that you will probably just laugh at this post, call my beliefs magic, or dodge the point completely(possibly with a reference to a fallacy).
And by the way, are you going to respond to my post in 'Subjective Truth vs Objective Truth'?
ahh yes the much heralded mystery religions. Why should we consider the stories of Osiris (Egypt), Dionysus (Greece), Adonis (Syria), Attis (Asia minor), Mithras (Persia) as fables and yet not consider the story of Jesus to be piled among these- Myths.
First off, historical documentation, eyewitness accounts, and era; to skim a few reasons.
Secondly, for brevity, lets deal with resurrection. Many of these resurrections were: linked to seasonal life and death patterns - such an obvious visual prop. These other resurrections were repeated - Christ is not repeatedly dying and being born again and there is no linking with seasonal patterns.
Nobody ever saw these mythical resurrections and deaths. There were no eyewitnesses to Osiris dying and being born or any of the other myths. They are without confirmation.
Baal is the storm god in heaven (although not called heaven but the sky - its a translation thing) Baal is directly linked to weather. So one day baals brother swallows baal (its stops raining) and mom goes and frees baal and it rains again. But no one ever sees this happen. The same with the other myths - there is no eyewitness, no empty tomb, no events surrounding the resurrection or death like christianity has. Although baal regurgitates well after being swallowed, does this regurgection even come close to Jesus' resurrection? no.
There's no clear account of Marduk dying so resurrection is moot.
Osiris gets chopped up, scattered, his parts are found and put back together but ends up in the netherworld. Not the same thing again and no eyewitnesses, no empty grave, no historical evidence - no one ever saw it happen and this no witness aspect is what makes a story, a story.
There is a huge difference between stories and historical evidence.
Justin martyr discussed parallels between christianity and the myths but he was using this example to say, you don't persecute other religions why persecute this one? So he was not admitting christianity to be a myth and he stretched the christian beliefs to fit his case in defense of christian persecutions.
Mithra is a second century mystery religion, when it was active. Mithra was born out of a rock in a cave. A rock is very far from a virgin birth. And again, there are no eyewitness accounts. Mithra was born on dec 25, we do not know when jesus was born. The christian adoption of dec 25 came about in 336AD, a mistake of the catholic church to incorporate pagan beliefs into christianity and not the other way around. It was the popes' and emperors' suggestion that instead of banning pagan ceremonies they just appropriate them for christianity.
Mithras followers were promised immortality. Immortality is something that socrates and plato said humans already had. There are no documents that confirm this. Immortality is a gift from God according to christianity. No other religion ever offered immortality to its followers.
Mithras sacrificed himself for world peace, which he did not, he killed a bull.
Mithras rose after 3 days from a tomb. Scholars do not know anything about the death of mithras. There are monuments and almost no textual evidence probably due to its being a secret religion. Richard Gordon, in his book, Image and value in the greco-roman world states 'there is no death of mithra, so there cannot be a resurrection'.
There are two types of mithraism: iranian and roman.
the tauroctony (bull-slaying scene) of Roman Mithraism was located in the most important place in every mithraeum (temple). Thus, if the god Mithras of the Roman religion was actually the Iranian god Mithra, we should expect to find in Iranian mythology a story in which Mithra kills a bull but, says, Mithraic scholar David Ulansey, "no such Iranian myth exists, in no known Iranain text does Mithra have anything to do with killing a bull". It seems we cannot connect the roman to the iranian mithraism which makes the roman mystery religion not as old as some would like to think. The mithraism you talk about is restricted to Roman military and omits women completely, both of these are not christian attributes.
The bull slaughter of Roman mithraism is a rite practiced only in exceptional cases. In its developed form, the initiate was placed in a pit and a bull was slaughtered on a grate above him, drenching him in bulls blood. This of course is not the application of the blood either by the Hebrews of OT or the New dispensation by Christ, who takes away the sin of the world. The taurobolium is a second century rite. This is a situation of christianity influencing mithraism and not the other way around.
I can go on about how mithraism and other myths and older religions do not parallel christianity and i could speak about the uniqueness of christianity and how it is continued off the back of the OT. I could mention how the time lines for the myths do not add up to support that christianity is like the myths that came after it. I could include the 'double doctrine' doctrine and how it was around long before Christianity in the form of socrates and plato and how they knew the lies they told to the public were to keep the public in line but this predates Jesus birth by 400 yrs. so obviously, the lies that plato was telling could not have included what christ did.
So i am not worried about what half cocked contritions are manufactured to discredit christianity they all run like water off a ducks back when compared to God bein in da house y'all.. come on... recognize bro. oh yeah. high five!
Persistance does not pay off in wanting to be God. You will die someday like all mortals and you will face almighty God and in his presence you will fall on your face and beg forgivness of being so ignorant and God will forgive you because his son has paid the price for it and you will confess that Jesus christ is lord.
And you're authority for such an outrageous claim is?
this is where you need a thing called imagination. Not the conjuring kind of imagination where a golden car zooms out of the clouds and speaks australian. But where you imagine what the text of the bible says will happen.
First you imagine God looking at you. What kind of piericing eyes is gonna have? the kind that go through your soul, that see right inside you to your deepest secret or just a pair of common hazel eyes with no 'window to the soul quality'. Then after you remember that you DIED and realize where you now STAND.. man thats gonna be a mind blower huh...
Are ya getting the picture?
Of course the bible is the source for all things Godly, that's why He inspired Godly men to write Godly things that when the pen was put down, was exactly what God wanted to be written.
Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
I really hope when the time comes you'll be laughing out loud for quite another reason than the one you're presenting here... :S
You're still on my heart.
G'D BLESS you.
When the time comes I expect to be no more. So I better laugh now while I can.
You seem like a very nice, loving person. But seriously, don't give me or my soul another thought. I'm a lost cause as far as anyone convincing me the Christian version of a god exists.
Only your god itself could do that by showing up and saying hi. The invite has been there for years. If it exists it knows where I am.
This is not meant to insult you but it does not need humans to do its convincing for it, It needs to man up and do it himself.
There are no "lost causes" on the face of this earth...
That's why I care. You're so right. Only my G'D can show up and invite you, but don't you see, Mr. O'Brian... that's what all this rhetoric is...
...you rejecting everything anyone has to offer in the way of HIS Invitation... and HIM continuing to reach out...
HE Loves you despite yourself. HE LOVES me that way too.
There is no difference between us in that regard. You mean just as much to HIM, if not more, than I do. As a result, you mean so very much to me.
I understand you want TANGIBLE proof. I know that. But what if HE Came and Shook you in your sleep, or took you into a 'between life and death" circumstance, where all you would have to lose is this 'life' you consider so fleeting and temporal, and eternally insignificant?
Why should HE Have to go to such lengths to reach you? Who are you that you count yourself impenetrable to HIM?
You're not; and if HE So Chooses, He Can break through every barrier keeping Him from your heart, away from the spirit in you, He Longs to validate... but HE's a gentleman. HE Will never force you. Never. That's why coming to Him is by "faith".. by faith and nothing more.
I pray so many good things for you, Sir. I pray we will laugh over this Thread in eternity one day... as we touch on all the 'hints' and 'invitations He Extended to you along the way'. Ultimately though... it's up to you.
G'D BLESS you today, Mr. O'Brian. May He Bless you and Embrace you and Cause His "sun" to shine on you, even if only for a minute... really shine on you, so that you know it's Him. In YESHUA HAMASCIACH I pray. Amen.
Oh... and you're also right... HE Doesn't need 'me' to do His Convincing for Him... HE Allows it... because HE Loves us and HE Wants to grant us an opportunity to do something that will cause us to feel as though we've delighted HIM...
You see, HE's G'D. There's nothing in this world, NOTHING, that I can give HIM, except my love, devotion, obedience and trust.
... G'D BLESS you.
As I live, saith (fill in name of any psychotic despot), every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to (fill in name of any psychotic despot).
Why would anyone want to follow your God?
That's really the problem. The god is said to do/be good even when clearly doing evil. It can't do evil because everything it does is by definition good.
This is the tyrant syndrome where black is white and you ask for more if you get your teeth kicked in and you like it. lol...
No. This god is not for me.
Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Doesn't ask for much your god does he? I mean abject obeisance isn't asking a lot is it?
But then - we know that every person alive today doesn't bow down before your god: some refuse to bend the knee (I know cos' I'm one) - so was your infallible god wrong? Or is it the much simpler case: that the bible was not - in fact - written by a god but by fallible men prone to telling lies?
You obviously misunderstand that God is timeless, you can confess that He is God now, or when you meet Him, but you WILL bow down, and you will have no other option that to confess that He is God, because when you meet Him, you will be stunned.
I was, and there is no 'abject obeisance' it's more a joyous reunion with our Father, the 'abject obeisance' will be when you finally meet with Him and realise you were wrong all along, and wasted a life, missing eternity with God, due to your error.
Better to find Him now I think, rather than when you get back home, to find you have lost the key to the door.
You are are right, I do not understand your god. I do not - either -understand how grown men can abdicate their moral responsibility to think for themselves and allow their perception of the world to be dictated by a 2000 year old plagiarized myth. In fact, in order for me to think like you I would first need a lobotomy.
And God lobotomizes! The teachings of this world are lies and all its paths lead to destruction. What you see as abdication of moral responsibility is just retraining. I often wonder why people who claim to have such a good hold on their morals complain about surrendering that moral claim? If you think you are good enough or over half way there, whats the problem. Would it not be more difficult for someone with addictions, mental instabilities, whatever to live as a christian, instead of those who are more perfect and capable to do so? Its as i have said before, Gods biggest problem is not sin, its self. Self is the mitigating factor, Your life is good and all is well so why involve God in it and yet you know some changes will have to take place.
Lobotomies are good... lol
I do not consider myself perfect. And I seriously doubt that anyone that knows me does either. I am not even sure that I would want to be perfect.
However you - along with most of the christian commentators on these forums - have obviously made your mind up that you will be going to heaven when you die.
Now even I know that it is not for you to make that assumption. What is more - having made that assumption you have committed a most grievous sin that would actually disqualify you from entering into the kingdom of heaven.
So if you are right and I am wrong; I guess I'll be seeing you in Hell.
Hey Bro, if people like Tony Blair and George Bush: people that are pushing for war against Iran, get their way then we will see Hell-on-Earth in the form of a third world war.
So I just might see you in Hell.
You are talking of Armageddon, and I am reliably informed that we miss that one, but if you stick around, yes, you may get a taste of things to come for you.
The modern christian understanding of armageddon is based on a deliberate misinterpretatation of what Revelation actually states. St John says that he is talking about matters for which: 'the time is at hand'. He fully expected to see those events unfold in his own lifetime. The fact that he didn't tells us that he failed - he didn't manage to promote a war against Rome (at least not one that the Jews actually won) - so his self-fulfilling prophecy never came to pass.
You carry on deluding yourself if you wish. But if the warmongers get their way you will see many of the people that you know die. If you have any children that are of military age then you really should be worried.
Firstly the book is actually titled 'The Revelation of Jesus Christ" John was the person it was dictated to:
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
When Christ says the time is at hand, He has a rather different way of viewing time than you do.
Later we come to the expression again:
Revelation 22 1:15
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Secondly the imagery in the latter chapters far exceeds anything that John could have imagined happening to Rome, and frankly if anyone can read Revelations and make the conjecture you make, I doubt their integrity in the matter.
You may accuse 2,000 years of biblical scholars of embellishing the interpretation, but you have taken one verse and discounted the rest, which you needed to do in order to make YOUR version fit into YOUR mindset.
But you maybe correct about the warmongering, and the enemy will continue to stir up the nations wrath and rebellion against God, and you may well see your loved ones lose out if they are not protected.
I do not relish that idea, but it is every persons choice whether they swear allegiance to the enemy of the world, or God.
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
It seems I look forward with joy to His return and the enemies final defeat, whereas you look morosely forward to death and destruction, and no doubt you will be annoyed if what I believe enables me to escape 'all these things'.
I do have a son of military ages, however he is already in a war zone, called Brooklyn NYC, where he serves ministering to the children of gang members and drug dealers.
If he is still here when the final countdown and tribulation begins, I would be very surprised.
'shortly come to pass' point proven.
I wish your son well in his work.
Like I said, no concept of time as God sees it!
Thanks for wishing my son well, he's just started his third year working with them, and finally the families and kids are accepting that he is for real.
In September there were 65 shootings in his area.
He's 22, but no fear of conscription, for he is on a UK passport, but never lived there, raised in Spain (speaks fluent street Spanish, good for the gangs)and works and lives in the USA.... who would have a claim on him?
aguasilver I have my own understanding of time which I arrived at all on my lonesome.
And - dare I say it - your son is a saint. I just hope he's quick on his feet with all those bullets zipping about.
I wish you both long and prosperous lives.
Thank you Peter, we can disagree yet stay civilized, that's good.
I wish you all you wish yourself.
My son wears what he calls a 'bullet proof vest' it's a 'T" shirt with Metro Ministries logo on it, very well respected apparently as they have been working in Brooklyn and area for thirty years now.
Not been shot once, though Bill Wilson has, and knifed and attacked, but that was earlier in the works.
I have some hubs about what they do...
Peace and prosperity to you.
see me in hell... why would you say that?
Firstly i do not believe hell as it is commonly understood as anything else but a catholic fear doctrine which the bible and the attributes of God do not support.
There is to be, if you like the term Armageddon, Armageddon, but it will not be hell. To use hell as a metaphor is cool with me although its inaccurate in any other sense, but i understand its usage metaphorically.
There will be a final conflict of that there is no doubt but who will be generals or instigators in it I have no idea. So pointing fingers at bush or whomever means nothing to me.
Ah, but there is a way that we can be sure we are going to Heaven!
It just isn't as easy as most people think!
Now even I know that it is not for you to make that assumption. What is more - having made that assumption you have committed a most grievous sin that would actually disqualify you from entering into the kingdom of heaven.
Actually, that's not the way it works. The entire structure of faith is based on believing that once every sin an individual will ever commit is washed clean by the Blood of G'D's Sacrificial Lamb, that individual can rest secure in the knowledge that, this being the case, hell will never be his/her consequence. On the other hand, that individual becomes a citizen of G'D's Kingdom from the moment of Salvation going forward, and a sojourner of the earth. This falls in line with the precept that G'D's Kingdom is eternal, while our time on earth is temporal.
Just wanted to clarify the issue.
Greetings to you, in HIS PRECIOUS NAME!
Why any of it. Superstitious repetitive nonsense handed down and used to control the ignorance since the beginning of psychosis.
When you have defined omnipotence, you can get started with the problems of omniscient and omnipresent.
Good luck with that.
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
1 Kings 20:22 And the prophet came to the king of Israel, and said unto him, Go, strengthen thyself, and mark, and see what thou does: for at the return of the year the king of Syria will come up against thee.
1 Kings 20:26 And it came to pass at the return of the year, that Benhadad numbered the Syrians, and went up to Aphek, to fight against Israel.
Matthew 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Why think you evil in your hearts?
everywhere at once
Acts 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if happily they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Acts 17:28 For in Him we live, and move, and have our being;
The Creator God is not so crued as Christians think of Him; he killed nobody.
I'm curious then who killed every family's first born in Egypt?
Who will kill you when your time comes? lol...
It was Pharaoh:
[14:7] And call to mind when Moses said to his people, ‘Remember Allah’s favour upon you when He delivered you from Pharaoh’s people who afflicted you with grievous torment, slaying your sons and sparing your women; and in that there was a great trial for you from your Lord.’
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … mp;verse=0
So the Pharaoh killed the first born? Even though God did it himself directly and said he would do so? lol
paarsurrey: '... he killed nobody.'
Killed nobody? What about the flood? Didn't millions die when it rained for 40 days and nights? But I forget. The bible can mean anything you like. It can also mean different things to different people. It can be as 'true' as you want it to be.
That is damage done by nature; the Creator God was not responsible for it.
paarsurrey have you ever actually read the bible? Does it not say that god sent the flood to punish mankind for his wickedness? Moreover didn't your creator god 'create' nature?
I have read the Bible.
[3:118] The likeness of what they spend for the present life is as the likeness of a wind wherein there is intense cold which smites the harvest of a people who have wronged themselves, and destroys it. And Allah has not wronged them, but they wrong themselves.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … ;verse=117
paarsurrey I am an atheist (just in case you hadn't already guessed) so quoting the bible or koran at me will not convince me of anything. Now if you had some original ideas on the subject - something that you thought up yourself and wasn't written down in a book more than a millennia ago -I would be happy to hear them. So put down your book and put your thinking cap on.
I don't mind if you are an atheist; you blamed the Creator God, it was therefore reasonable to quote from Him; don't be angry.
You interpereted the events wrongly; so I just clarified reasonably.
You may put your thining cap on; don't put it on the table.
I haven't blamed your creator god for anything. He doesn't exist: you cannot put an imaginary being on trial.
Nor can an imaginary entity be quoted. The bible and koran were written by men and it is the word's of men that you are quoting.
And I am not angry either - just continuously disappointed that there are millions of people in this world that have been brainwashed by religion and they don't even realise that they are being manipulated by priests, imams, politicians and the rich 1%. Religious differences - as in christian west, muslim east - are exploited by the rich and their lackeys: politicians, priests etc, to start wars which will extend their wealth and power. We are witnessing this 'divide and conquer' process at work right now. It will probably result in a war against Syria and - down the line - Iran. These regional wars will escalate into the third world war (which has, in fact, already begun) and millions of people will die. It is relgion that makes this nightmare scenario possible.
Get rid of the politicians. Get rid of the Priests. Get rid of the banksters. And we can all live in peace with one another. Amen
" just continuously disappointed that there are millions of people in this world that have been brainwashed by religion and they don't even realise that they are being manipulated by priests, imams, politicians and the rich 1%."
Amazing, not 'million' but billions of people all have relationships with God, yet you, the 2% of atheists are the ONLY ones who are right.... sound familiar?
It's exactly what you accuse fundies of!
You could be right about the billions - but do they all worship your version of a non-existent god?
I'm not familiar with the term 'fundies' and I don't know where you got the 2% either.
I still say religion is exploited to justify killing people. Didn't your god tell joshua to kill every man, woman and child at the siege of Jericho? You wordhip death.
Money is exploited, power is exploited, anger is exploited... what is not exploited and can not be exploited for personal gain?
Jericho was the central hub city in that land, a message was needed to be sent or since jails were not invented yet..... and more reasons.
lets look at jails. We see in movies a good guy in jail and he escapes and throws grenades, sets up big explosions and conquers the bad guys, put a bad guy in jail (or guys) and he does the same thing. The bad guy does not come out a good guy he comes out in fact, angrier and more desperate. Jails are a double edged sword this way. Yah i was using this example from an old Rambo movie. The only reason he was successful is because he was not killed when the bad guys had a chance, but was jailed.
When America napalmed Vietnam was this any different? But do you hate the president and not follow American laws because that's disgusting behavior?
Warophobes really need to get over it. The bible is not just a faith book, its not just an account of some God. Its also a history book.
So what's the opposite of warophobe a warmonger? Which are you? I would guess that I am a warophobe; but then again what sane person wouldn't be?
And so there wasn't a jail around in which to incarcerate babes-in-arms; no problem, just kill them all. And that's your answer?
And what was the message sent? Our god is the god of death and if you get in our way - or refuse to flee the land of your forefathers - we will visit death upon you.
You're right about one thing though; things are pretty much the same now as they were then. Christian crusaders are still invading coutries in the middle east to steal their oil - and kill their babies - on behalf of the 1%. Not that you care.
Why is it you type of people cannot understand what you read?
All you had to think was..
yep everything can be exploited.
kinda hard to jail people when there are no jails.
jailing is not so very much a good solution.
Countries today do terrible things to humans in war not unlike in bible days.
People who b$tch about war in the bible should realize its kinda a moot point.
yes the bible is a history book.
Had you have done these things you would not have come across like some sloppy interpreter of forum posts.
Take a look at your own English Bro.
And watch that halo - it appears to be slipping.
Why would a god need to order the murder of his son inorder to forgive
I think that the question and understanding is wrong.
1.Why GOD need -
Only the humanity creation has two options i.e obey or disobey
So GOD need to give MANUAL [Abraham,Moses,BIBLE,QURAN Etc.,] through messengers.
2.The murder of his son-
It is not a murder.But sacrifice.The Messenger JESUS completed the MANUAL implementation to all. I believe that the blood of JESUS makes a major roll.
3.In order to forgive -
Not in order to forgive all of our sin.
In order to forgive people who are interested to follow and following the MANUAL .
I think so
Nobody ever goes to the quran to find historical evidence about jesus (historians, theologians, archeologists and others) There is only one source and few other secular sources but the bible is the number one source for information about Jesus, and why not it is a book completely devoted to jesus in both OT and NT. The OT in that it points to Jesus and the NT in that it speaks about Jesus in great detail and depth.
The quran says that jesus never died on the cross.
Lets look at jesus being a 'great' prophet which the quran says - no problem there. Jesus predicted (i dislike that word) prophesied his own death.
If jesus did not die this kind of death, then that makes Jesus a false prophet. The Quran says Jesus is a Great prophet, but here we see that he lied about his death so the Quran is discredited.
On the other hand.
If Jesus did die as prophesied then Jesus is a Great prophet but the Quran is again discredited by saying that he did not die on the cross.
It's an islamic catch-22
Now if Allah made jesus to appear to be dead, wouldn't this make Allah a deceiver? We can understand it sorta, if God were trying to deceive those around the cross but since we know that the disciples were transformed and had amalgamized with the resurrection of Jesus because of Jesus death on the cross in their faith unto their deaths, then God deceived them too.
Sure we can make up any conclusion about anything that we want to but we need to look at where the information leads us too.
Also to say that the gospels are not reliable witnesses, although there are 4 corroborating gospels, and to discredit the NT because 2 of those gospels, mark and luke weren't the actual eyewitnesses ( of course they received their gospel testimonies from actual eyewitnesses) is just silly complaining when we know the quran is fourth-hand testimony at best - given of an angel, then muhammed, then later on those that recorded what muhammed told them and what was selected by Uthman.
A single source compared to multiple sources in the new testament. Multiple attestation and corroboration of evidence with eyewitness testimonies is good convicting evidence in any court room.
Jesus prophesied correctly about himself that he will not die (on the Cross) a death of a false messenger prophet of the Creator God; but the Christians don't believe his prophecy; they deny it.
 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered him, saying: Master we would see a sign from thee.  Who answering said to them: An evil and adulterous generation seeketh a sign: and a sign shall not be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.  For as Jonas was in the whale's belly three days and three nights: so shall the Son of man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.
And Jonah did not die in the belly of fish; he died when he went to his people in Ninive; Jesus therefore could not die on the Cross as per his prophecy.
Taken from your reference:
 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered him, saying: Master we would see a sign from thee.  Who answering said to them: An evil and adulterous generation seeketh a sign: and a sign shall not be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.  For as Jonas was in the whale's belly three days and three nights: so shall the Son of man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.
JESUS did not prophecy "not dying on the Cross of Calvary" as you have interpreted here. HE Was saying HE Would spend three days in the heart of the earth... having been dealt the blow of death, only TO RISE AGAIN. The fact that Jonah did not die in the belly of the whale is the perfect analogy, because just as Jonah was spewed out of the whale's mouth onto the shores of Nineveh, so JESUS Rose from the grave, the metaphorical belly of the earth.
Unfortunately, you've taken this to mean something it does not. If you like, you might try doing some studies pertaining to the actual meanings attached to JESUS' Words. There are Word Studies you can do, Hebrew, Greek and even other Ancient Semitic Languages. Check it out. You may find there is much in the actual translations that cannot be directly interpreted, but is transliterated as best the translators can... this is the reason for so many translations... and the reason for so many interpretations. Unfortunately, some interpretations are dangerous.. that is why there needs to be an ongoing relationship with G'D. HE Instructs, Leads and Guards the heart of HIS People, toward TRUTH. Everything false falls away when HE IS In the equation. Without HIM there is room for so much to be misunderstood, misrepresented, misinterpreted.
Hope this helps you.
G'D BLESS Sir, (forgive me if you are not a gentleman... it's hard to tell from the unisex non-photo...).
I have taken the exact meaning which Jesus meant; this is in alignment with his other statements also.
... and you know because you have a relationship with G'D Almighty, you read The Holy Bible every day, you spend hours praying to this One you consider to understand so well...?
Please, if this is true, explain His Intention to me more explicitly. I invite you.
G'D BLESS you...
the clue to proper interpretation of this verse is
"Master we would see a SIGN from thee"
and what is a sign?
a sign is an indicator, not an exact replica, which commonly has a symbol or word that conveys a meaning or points to something.
John 2:18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What SIGN show You unto us, seeing that thou does these things?
John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
John 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
John 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
To the Jews of this time a meteor streaking through the night sky was not a sign of a meteor streaking through the night sky but of terrible things to come. The meteor in fact represented the troubles that would follow its sighting. Jonas being inside the special fish prepared of God represented Jesus being buried in the ground for three days as the tearing down of the temple example, says. The emergence of Jonah from the fish speaks, indicates, points to, jesus rising from the grave or from the earth as is mentioned.
....so shall the Son of man be in the heart of the EARTH three days and three nights.
or how about this one
Luke 11:29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a SIGN; and there shall no SIGN be given it, but the SIGN of Jonas the prophet.
Luke 11:30 For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.
The sign is saying: 3 days of burial (in the earth) and then a resurrection.
Psalms 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
psalm 22 a messianic prophecy psalm
notice the first line:
Psalms 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
words from the cross in a messianic psalm.
You have indeed as EmVeeT says, misinterpreted.
I have interpreted as Jesus meant it; he clearly hinted going to the lost sheep of Israel; so he went when he got saved from dying a cursed death on Cross:
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad- the Promised Messiah says in this connection:
Let it be noted that though Christians believe that Jesus (peace be on him) after his arrest through the betrayal by Judas Iscariot, and crucifixion — and resurrection — went to heaven, yet, from the Holy Bible, it appears that this belief of theirs is altogether wrong. Matthew (chapter 12, verse 40) says that just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the fish, so the Son of Man shall be three days and three nights in the bowels of the earth. Now it is clear that Jonah did not die in the belly of the fish; the utmost that happened was that he was in a swoon or a fit of fainting.
The holy books of God bear witness that Jonah, by the grace of God, remained alive in the belly of the fish, and came out alive; and his people ultimately accepted him. If then Jesus (on whom be peace) had died in the belly of the ‘fish’, what resemblance could there be between a dead man and the one who was alive, and how could a living one be compared with one dead? The truth rather is, that as Jesus was a true prophet and as he knew that God, whose beloved he was, would save him from an accursed death, he made a prophecy in the form of a parable, revealed to him by God, in which he hinted that he would not die on the Cross, nor would he give up the ghost on the accursed wood; on the contrary, like the prophet Jonah, he would only pass through a state of swoon.
In the parable he had also hinted that he would come out of the bowels of the earth and would then join the people and, like Jonah, would be honoured by them. So this prophecy too was fulfilled; for Jesus, coming out of the bowels of the earth, went to his tribes who lived in the eastern countries, Kashmir and Tibet, etc. viz. the ten tribes of the Israelites who 721 years before Jesus, had been taken prisoner from Samaria by Shalmaneser, King of Assur, and had been taken away by him.
Ultimately, these tribes came to India and settled in various parts of that country. Jesus at all events must have made this journey; for the divine object underlying his advent was that he should meet the lost Jews who had settled in different parts of India; the reason being that these in fact were the lost sheep of Israel who had given up even their ancestral faith in these countries, and most of whom had adopted Buddhism, relapsing, gradually into idolatry. Dr. Bernier, on the authority of a number of learned people, states in his Travels that the Kashmiris in reality are Jews who in the time of the dispersal in the days of the King of Assur had migrated to this country.
In any case it was necessary for Jesus (peace be on him) to find out the whereabouts of these lost sheep, who had, on coming to this country, India, become merged into the other people. I shall presently adduce evidence that Jesus (peace be on him) did in fact come to India and then, by stages, travelled to Kashmir, and discovered the lost sheep of Israel among the people who professed the Buddhist faith and that these people ultimately accepted him, just as the people of the prophet Jonah accepted Jonah. And this was inevitable, for Jesus had said in so many words that he had been sent to the lost sheep of Israel.
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/je … a/ch1.html
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad- "the Promised Messiah" says in this connection:
This is the problem. You are quoting someone named "Mirza Ghulam Ahmad" and you are calling him "the Promised Messiah".
Now, I don't know this individual. I doubt three quarters of the world ever heard of him; however, he has succeeded in getting your attention and, obviously your trust. My suggestion to you: Be careful Sir.
There have been many who have come and gone and called themselves The Promised Messiah. However, they are mere men. Their appearance on the earth will neither establish or rock any system pertaining to humanity.
Don't take offense but I already am certain: you and I will never come to any resolutions because the individual you are turning to in lieu of THE ALL-SUFFICIENT, ALMIGHTY G'D is skin and bones, just as you are. Whatever is causing you to believe in him, let me be the first to caution you: when he dies, so will his name, his fame and his following.
Be very careful though, what you say about THE SON of G'D. Every word you utter will be brought before you on the day that you stand before THE KING.
Until then though...
BLESSINGS to you.
I will not respond to any more of your posts. I will leave that to someone else who desires to make heads or tails of your thought processes and precepts. As for me, my time is better spent praying G'D Open your unseeing eyes.
In The Name of IMMANUEL, G'D With us, I pray HE PREVAILS in your heart, mind, spirit and soul. I pray HE BRINGS you to discern truth; and I pray that the truth will liberate you from all misconceptions surrounding you.
Mirza Ghual Ahmad is 'skin and bones "as was Jesus; when Jesus got injuries he was lashed and his skin did get bruises, and when he was pierced by a constable, blood oozed from his bodies; his bones were not broken; nevertheless he did have bones.
Mirza Ghual Ahmad and Jesus were similiar in being the "Promised Messiah"; if one denies any one of them then automatically one denies the other.
In North Amercia, we say 'it's a woman's prerogative to change her mind'. I've changed mine regarding responding to you...
I thought to take the coward's way out and have someone else do it for me, but I sense that you are an individual who a) has to have the last word where women are involved b) are stubborn and will say anything in order to make yourself sound correct.
In as far as JESUS Is concerned: HE LIVED over 2000 years ago, and HIS NAME IS still revered by hundreds of thousands of individuals the world over, that's not counting ages past, and/or future. I highly doubt your 'Ahmad' will have the same longevity. However, if he still exists in the mouths and minds of men in that timeframe, I will be willing to agree that to deny one denies the other. Otherwise, I cannot. I will not.
Since, as of this post, JESUS IS The Only Messiah who has existed for over 2000 years, whether this subject is controversial to some or not, you should be gentleman enough to concede to me that your 'Messiah' is not in any way shape or form equal to my MESSIAH. However, whether you agree or not, I will state this to be the Solemn, Absolute and Irrevocable Truth.
the two are not equal. parallel or on any tangent similar... the two have nothing to do with one another. Period.
As of this post, I retract my statement saying I will not respond. I will if I am urged to do so.
I know you will do so...
I can't wait to hear what you have to say next.
MAY THE G'D of ALL GLORY, POWER and HOLINESS BLESS you in ways you have never experienced. MAY HIS NAME Become your treasure. MAY HIS WILL Be Done in your life, for HIS NAME'S SAKE! through YESHUA HAMASCIACH, JESUS, THE ONE and ONLY MESSIAH! Yesterday, today and forever. Amen.
What you are missing paar is the whole counsel of God. Notice that i cited two scriptures; one concerning the temple and one concerning jonah and both refer to jesus being raised up. Your messiah has taken one scripture, isolated it and made his assumption without additional scripture to keep the context accurate. You also need to take into consideration what jesus said about his resurrection and you need to realize that God is not a deceiver. This is a bigger picture not just one scripture isolated. Also your messiah seems to have not accounted for the OT scriptures i cited and a vast amount of other bible evidence for a death, resurrection and ascension.
Further if we read the prayer of jonah this verse becomes important:
Jonah 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heard my voice. Hell used here is sheol which means the grave, unfortunately when we use strongs concordance we get the catholic meaning as well but the hebrew people had no concept of the catholic meaning so we need to go with grave. Do you see a stronger connection now?
Also this verse:
Jonah 2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from CORRUPTION, O LORD my God.
Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. <-- messianic Acts 2:27
When you mention the lost sheep
Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Matthew 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
He sent his disciples to the lost sheep that were local.
The problem i have with the india theory is that it contradicts so much scripture and any conjecture about jesus in india, especially after not having died on the cross is impossible to believe because obviously the cross theories you have are wrong. Why did jesus, not go the other parts of asia to visit those other lost sheep, the tribes of israel were scattered all over, persia, bablylon, farther west. some into ethiopia.
I do not know what you mean by a swoon, but bible says that jonah "prayed" to God out of the special fish, I cannot read more into this other than jonah was well aware of the situation and praying.
I think even you believe that Saint Thomas went to Kerala, India as Jews resided there.
If the sinful Gospel writers missed this aspect that is because they were not trusted persons of Jesus. Mary and Jesus' other trusted companions joined him in this journey to India; one of them was Thomas.
Yeah. the whale thing? Couldn't have happened. lol...
before you give evidence as to why it could not have happened. Let me show you why it could have happened.
Jonah 1:15 So they took up Jonah, and cast him forth into the sea: and the sea ceased from her raging.
Jonah 1:16 Then the men feared the LORD exceedingly, and offered a sacrifice unto the LORD, and made vows.
Jonah 1:17 Now the LORD had PREPARED a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.
Jonah 2:1 Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,
PREPARED - no ordinary fish. a special fish designed to do a specific duty, at the right time and in the right place.
That's an interesting misrepresentation. Points for originality.
It's a simple answer. God doesn't want faith to be complicated. God originally covenanted with the Hebrews to atone for their sins with many type of sacrifices, burnt, blood, grain, drink, etc. for different kind of sins. But those sacrifices had to be freely given, with a proper heart and without trying to "trick" God by given less than the best they had to offer. Hence, sacrificial giving. Today, when we tithe, it is sacrificial giving as well from a heart in the right place. So, when it became obvious that we were a stubborn people, unwilling to serve God and God alone, because that was his first commandment, to have no other gods besides him, because there are lesser gods (demons to be exact), because of this, God chose to manifest himself in the form of a man to be born unto a virgin, to live, love, suffer and die among us, living without sin because it was God who came to earth as Jesus, not a separate man as we would think of it, but as God the Son. And in doing so, he gave a NEW covenant to the people to replace the requirements of the law which were based on works (you, know, be good enough, do this, get in to heaven, hopefully) and replaced it with a promise based on faith. When Jesus went to the cross, and I know this is hard to wrap your head around, but God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are One - God in three persons - like the phases of matter but the same element (water as liquid, gas, and solid but still water in a different form with a different name), it was God Himself who took the sin of the entire world past, present and future upon Himself and promised, yes PROMISED, because that's what a covenant is and God NEVER breaks a promise, that whoever would admit that they were a sinner and believe that Jesus died once and for all for the sins of the world, that by shedding His blood as the old covenant required, not murder, but sacrificial giving as a lamb to slaughter for He was the spotless Lamb of God, that whoever would believe this would be saved and eternally forgiven from their sins both the ones they had committed and the ones they would commit. In through faith in Jesus atone for their sins and be welcomed in the family of God to live with Him forever when Christ returns. Was Jesus a man? Yes. Did he die a violent death? Yes. Did God weep for the sins of the world, for a stubborn stiff-necked people he loved with all his heart and desperately wanted to repent and come back in to fellowship with him? Yes. When we sacrifice in our tithes and offerings, when the ancient Hebrews sacrificed on the alter for their sins, it was sacrificial giving. It had to be the very best of their herds and flocks, spotless, the first fruits of their harvest, because God wants our best, not mediocre attempts to just do good. So in order for God to forever forgive our sins, he offered his best, Himself on the alter for us. What a picture that is of love to the fullest, that a God who love us so much despite that fact we are ugly to him, call him names, ignore him, refuse to read his love letters to us (the Bible), dispute his very existence, and yet he loves us unconditionally. He hates what we do, but he still loves us and is willing to forgive us if we just ask by faith for Jesus to come in to our hearts and be the Lord of our lives. If you're reading this and you have never asked Jesus in to your heart, maybe you know who Jesus is, or maybe you were raised in a church, perhaps even go every Sunday but have never taken your heart to the alter and freely given it, you can do that now. You can be eternally certain that you'll be in Heaven when you die and be with God forever! Because Heaven is real and he has prepared a place just for you if you want it. But he won't force you, You have to chose to. So if you're ready, let's pray together. I've already prayed this for you, so as God's word says, when two or more come together and agree in prayer, if it's God's will it will be done. And I know it's God will that none should be lost, that all would come to the Kingdom of Heaven. So take a deep breath and let's pray:
Father, I'm coming to you in faith. I don't really know you but I really want to. I admit that I am a sinner, and in the Name of Jesus, I ask for your forgiveness. Father, forgive my sins. I accept that Jesus died on the cross for my sins and paid the price forever for them with His own blood. It's His blood that now covers my sin and forever erases it. I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, that He died and rose again and sits at your right hand in Heaven. I ask you Jesus, please come in to my heart, I invite you freely and ask You to be the Lord of my life. Holy Spirit, I ask you to fill me and guide me, to baptize me with your presence. Father, thank you for sending Jesus to die for me that I would be forgiven and help now from this moment forward to live for You. In Jesus Name, Amen.
Congratulations and welcome Brother or Sister! If you prayed this prayer, please let me know. There are lots of great resources out there and I can help you if you need.
Love in Christ
And when we look around the world today we children dying of hunger, children being born malformed because their parents were exposed to radioactive substances in the Iraq war. We see wars being fought on the basis of lies. We see wars being fought for oil and to further enrich the 1%. We also see banks using public money to speculate on 'food futures' which is driving up prices.
If your jesus died to absolve men of sin he wasted his time. Don't you think?
He died not to remove sin from the world but to give humanity the only way to come back into right fellowship with God. Sin entered the world because of the fall of Adam and Eve. It was because of the fall that we have all the junk you mention. God is not an unjust God. He operates consistently. Because he created man to have free will, when man chose to disobey God and eat the only fruit God told him not to eat, he chose to step away from fellowship from God. God is a good father with only the best in mind for his children. He wanted to protect Adam and Eve and so he gave them very specific instructions as any good father would do. But when children disobey, there are consequences, and good parents are consistent in follow through with the consequences that are set forth. God gave man many chances and opportunities to come around right. But as long as we chose everything but God, sin continued to rule in our lives and in our bodies. The sickness we face, the horrible unthinkable crimes, these are the result of man being born into the sin the follows every generation since Adam and Eve. And until Christ returns to take back the world from sin once and for all, sin will always be a part of our world. It is the wages of sin and death. I know, you're next argument is what about babies and children who commit no sin. It's not about committing sin, it's about being born in to a world where sin is in charge. Satan has been allowed to rule the earth until Christ returns. But, God is in charge and in control of everything. God also operates as I said with a just and consistent hand. Satan is the prince of the world, prince with a little "p". When Adam and Eve sinned, they allowed satan to become more important than God and invited satan in to the world. Sin can't control your life until you allow it to. Sin also opened the door for death and decay of our fleshly bodies, something God didn't intend for Adam and Eve. He created mankind to walk in fellowship with him for eternity. That's why he gave us Jesus as the way out. Let me ask you, if you had a wayward child, wouldn't you do everything possible to bring them back around? Or would you just give up on them, stop loving them and say, oh well, he/she is just junk and stubborn. Who cares what happens to them. Would your sacrifice yourself for the good of your child? And would that be a waste of time? If it's said of our soldiers that they made the ultimate sacrifice that we might have freedom, would you say to their families that they wasted their time?
Christ didn't waste His time. And whether you think He did or not, He's still going to be in love with you for all eternity and will grieve and cry tears of sorrow for you until you turn your heart to Him. Never blame God for the actions of people. It's not God's fault. He gave us the free will to choose. Even the angels had free will. It's why satan was cast out of Heaven, for choosing to be like God out of his own pride. That's why following the temptations of this world are so very dangerous and lead to all the things you mention. I believe that centuries of wrong choices have also caused the human body to become sicker and we destroy our environment more and more every day, hurting the innocent through poison. And yes, wars are always fought on the basis of lies. satan is the father of lies and he lies to people every second of the day driving them to acts of war not just on the battlefield but in their own homes and even to themselves. Image for a moment if you would if the 1% chose to turn to Christ and let Him be the Lord of their lives instead of their own greed and pride. And then just imagine if the 99% followed. What if we did as John Lennon suggested and we had no religion, just pure relationship with God, no Heaven or Hell to die for because by choosing Christ we ushered His return and Heaven on earth became real. Imagine.
By the way, God loves you Peter. I dare you to love Him back and see what happens
I'm curious about something. You indicate that God created mankind with free will and that all the evil in the world is because of humans disobeying God and the fall of man (and Satan apparently). I've heard many many times the phrase "God has a plan for all of us", us in the individual sense. How can we disobey God if he has a plan for each of us?
Interesting question the way you posed it. God's plan for everyone has always been for us to be in fellowship with him. Without going in to a discussion on predestination which begs another discussion altogether suggesting that nothing matters because God has it all planned ahead of time...the fact is, God knew you before you were even born and had a plan for your life. God didn't create us to be robots. He gave us free will so that we would love him by choice. That's the kind of God he is. Would you want somebody to love you because you made them love you or because they chose to love you? Because he also gave us free will to choose our path in life, it means that we can choose the path he has laid out for us, a plan for good (here I go, I promise not to thump you with Scripture! but this one is important) Jeremiah 29:11-14
"...For i know the plans i have for you," declares the lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and future. Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and i will listen to you. you will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. i will be found by you," declares the lord, "and will bring you back from captivity or will restore your fortunes. i will gather you from all the nations and places where i have banished you," declares the lord, "and will bring you back to the place from which i carried you into exile." God's plan is for a hope and a future. That doesn't mean we'll be rich and never get sick and die. It means that if we follow his plan, a trust him, accept Jesus as I discussed, then we have the hope of everlasting life. This world is a temporary home until we go home to be with God. But I digress. To disobey God is to stray from his intended path which starts with the ultimate in disobedience, denying him and living only for ourselves. As a parent, I want my children to be happy and successful. I've raised them along a path that should assist them in that direction, instructing them in the ways of the Lord, doing all I can do. But they have free will and often disobey my best intentions for them. As a result, they often come to disappointment and in some cases, harm. God tries to tell us the stove is hot. He even whispers "hot" when we get too close. But we don't like to listen because the lure of the stove and the glowing burner is enticing and we are drawn to reach for it only to get burned. God will let you disobey him if you want to. But the result will be disappointment. You may have temporary pleasure and what you feel is fulfillment. But there will always be a God sized hole in your heart that you will long to have filled. You may not know at this point that it's God you need in order to fill it. But if you are brave enough to ask him to reveal himself to you in your heart, I promise you he will. But he won't force himself in to your life. You have to invite him. He'll knock, but he won't open the door. You have to open it. Dear Autumn, God is waiting for you to open the door. I ran from him all my life and tried to fill it with everything imaginable. But always, there was a hole in my heart. One day I asked God what he wanted from me. He replied very audibly, "Pray to me". I did. And he sent an amazing man in to my life who gave me the rest of the truth and very shortly God set me free when I accepted Christ in to my heart. My life has never been the same. It's not perfect, and I have problems like everyone else. But I have God and a hope for the future without the bondage of the junk I was in to that left me empty and alone in a room full of people. God's plan for you is the same as it is for everyone, to be in right relationship with him. As for you earthly plan, he has a plan for that to that will glorify his purpose in your life. Once you take a step toward God, and trust in him, and him alone, he will give you the desires of your heart, he will place in your heart a desire to pursue those paths, career, relational, financial, etc. that you will think are your own ideas but were his all along!
Love you! And thanks for a great question
Hey MHaydock (hope I got that right)...
Great going, Girl! May G'D Grant you the enthusiasm to continue meeting their questions head on. I'm on the sideline praying.
Blessings to you...
Thank you for taking the time to reply mhaydock. I can't say I fully agree with all of it but that's ok. I think everyone needs to find what's right for them and be happy and fulfilled. You appear to be and that's great. I also am fulfilled and questioning things in life, religious or not, is just who I am lol. Again thanks for the response.
If god know what you will do before you are born you have no free will. Sorry. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
I'm sorry Slarty, but I disagree with that.
When I take my son(he's young) to buy a new car( he loves Hot Wheels), I give him a choice of 3 cars. He knows he can only pick one, so he looks at them all, and grabs one to show which he wants.
I know that if I include 1 red car and no other red cars, he will pick the red car. Every time.
It doesn't take away his free will, it's just that I know him well enough. Of course his preferences will change, and when they do, I will know him then too.
Just imagine how well God must know us. It doesn't take away our free will though.
That's not the same thing at all. The classic Christian opinion is that god knows all. Some suggest he knows whether you will end up in hell or not before you are born.
The point is if god can know your future with absolute certainty, you have no free will.
Not because a god knows it, but because it can be known. It is then written in stone and you can't do a thing about it to change it. If you could that would mean god does not know all in advance because the future can not be known with certainty.
You have only those two choices. You can anticipate your son's desires but you can not know them with absolute certainty, and that is what we are talking about.
My example is an imperfect one because I am imperfect. But myself, being very much so not-all-knowing, I know what my son will choose. It's not perfect, but it demonstrates a principle.
God could know where we will end up, but we still have our free will...
I know that if my wife were given the choice between a million dollars and 50 dollars, she would take the million.
God knows everything that can be known... so he should know for certainty. That doesn't mean his knowledge of the thing defines it.
You hold the chisel, how you write your life is what God has seen at the end, but because you do have free will, you can change how that ends.
But you need to GIVE the chisel to God, and let Him do the work.
How can he have seen it if you can change it? That would mean he didn't see it or he was wrong.
No, it means that he either weeps or rejoices as YOU make your life story according to YOUR wishes, unless and until YOU decide to let the master craftsman take over, when He guides you.
Did you watch that video?
He made us to be who He wants us to be, his perfect creation, but we fall short and the enemy lies and tells us we are worthless, or (if it suits) highly intelligent people who would not be taken in by this God thing.
We listen, we hurt (God) and we decide whether we stay separated from God or make that reunion.
You seem to have a problem with a God that allows you to make wrong decisions when He could stop you from doing so, but God is a gentleman, He will not intervene in your life UNTIL you ask Him to do so.
Once you do that, everything changes.
If he made us perfect how in the world could we fall short? If we fall short it is because we were never perfect. Perfect means we couldn't fall short.
All these strange contradicting statements Christians make are astounding.
Errrr.... look into Genesis for the clue as to why we were formed perfect, but fell short of his glory.
We were Created to live with Him for eternity in Paradise (Heaven on earth) but listened to the enemy and decided to follow OUR will rather than His.
The rest is history, and each human being since born has in their own right made the same wrong decision, but some of us reverse the error.
Others choose to go to death with their mistake.
Well then that would show we were not perfect to begin with or we wouldn't have done that, free will or not.
per·fect [adj., n. pur-fikt; v. per-fekt] Show IPA
1. conforming absolutely to the description or definition of an ideal type: a perfect sphere; a perfect gentleman.
2. excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement: There is no perfect legal code. The proportions of this temple are almost perfect.
3. exactly fitting the need in a certain situation or for a certain purpose: a perfect actor to play Mr. Micawber; a perfect saw for cutting out keyholes.
4. entirely without any flaws, defects, or shortcomings: a perfect apple; the perfect crime.
5.accurate, exact, or correct in every detail: a perfect copy.
The Adamic first formed fitted that description, but starting off perfect, does not mean (when in possession of free will) that one will remain perfect, for the first wrong decision one makes (i.e. one based upon OUR will not Gods) will render the perfect as flawed and imperfect.
Babies start of without a ability to sin (miss the mark) for there is no benchmark for them to conform to, but outside influences (parents etc) and their own free will, quickly means they will start attempting to exercise their free will over those around them, they cry for attention, and when they get attention (which is why they cry) they quickly learn that crying will bring reward, or punishment, and adapt accordingly to test the system further to establish what will get them THEIR will over and above those who attend them.
By the time they can walk they are getting expert at manipulating their parents etc and will run the house unless the parents exercise discretion and wisdom.
So we start out as perfect as created by God but as we start to act with free will we cease to be perfect?
You could argue that God created us with free will, so we are perfect in that sense. He made us so we would have the ability to sin.
So, you can say both of the following:
We are perfect, because we are exactly as God intended us to be.
We are not perfect as God is perfect.
Kind of like how you can say that '1 + 1 = 2' is correct, and '2 + 2 = 4' is correct. But, just because they are both correct, doesn't mean they are the same.
I think there are different types of "Gods plan" here. The post Slarty quoted mentioned God having our lives planned out before we were born. In that regard I agree with Slarty that it doesn't seem to fit with free will.
So, there are two options.
1 - Our lives were planned out, so God knows where we will end up.
2 - God knows us so well(as part of his knowing everything) that he knows where we will end up.
Number 1, yes, no free will.
Number 2, yes free will.
Its easier than that. Forget gods. If anything, anyone, could possibly know the future with absolute certainty then the future is unshakable. You have no free will.
Some try to get around it by saying god is outside time so he sees the future like the present. But that changes nothing. It almost means a future already exists for us to play out.
There is no permutation or instance where god could know your future with certainty and you still retain free will.
It wouldn't matter much you not being able to see the future. You would go on making choices as if you had free will because you and I are ignorant of the future. That ignorance gives an illusion of free will.
So god knows all in advance and you have no free will. He doesn't, you might.
I don't see any logical reason why it would be impossible for God to know the future without it being set in stone.
The argument about being outside time is interesting... if you've ever looked at the model of a 10-dimensional universe it could make sense from that point of view.
The point is, the knowledge of something doesn't define it. I know what an apple is, but my knowledge of the apple doesn't define it nor does it set it in stone. Just the same, God's knowledge of the future doesn't have to define it or set it in stone.
I don't see a logical way around it. You are missing the point. God's knowledge wouldn't set it in stone. God's knowledge with absolute certainty would mean it already is set in stone.
You said yourself god can only do things that are possible. If it is possible to see the future with certainty then it is set in stone. God is irrelevant to the discussion in fact. until some one says god knows all in advance and then they say you have free will. That is impossible.
We will. This is not something off the top of my head. I've looked at it in just about every way possible.
I'll give you something else to think about. There is no such thing as free will.
We have will, but it isn't free. It is always coerced. I've written a hub on this you might like to read.
Please to explain the difference between 1 and 2 considering they both end with the same conclusion: "God knows where we will end up"...
... and then please explain how one can be considered free will while the other is not?
I see no free will in either one of those assertions.
Ok Troubled. In one situation, God has basically programmed our lives. We don't have free will and he knows where we will end up and what we will do because he programmed us. In this situation there is no free will.
In the other situation, God knows where we will end up because He knows us really really well. I used the example of my son always picking a red hot-wheel. Just because I know he loves red doesn't mean he has no choice. If I know him that well, how well must God know him? If you completely understand a person, you can know what they will do in any situation. So with this scenario, God knows where we will end up(because he knows us), yet it is still our choices. Him knowing what choices we will make doesn't change the fact that they are our choices.
The flaw in your argument is bolded. That completely ignores any and all external influences, actions and events that shape our lives and where we end up. God would have to take each and every one of those into account each and every day of our lives. Wouldn't that then be exactly the same as the first assertion?
You also ignored these in your first assertion. Even if we were programmed, external influences, actions and events can reshape our lives regardless of how we are programmed.
First, I'm proud of you for actually forming arguments instead of what you usually do... I appreciate it.
It's not a flaw. God knows what we will do in any given situation. Since he is all-knowing, and he sent us here, it is fair to say that he already knows about all of these influences, actions, and events. Just because he knows what is going to happen doesn't mean it takes away our choices.
It's one of the first times you've responded without making ridiculous claims. A half-argument actually exists there and could have potential to grow into a full one.
How does that explain anything? By Him knowing our path through life that includes all the influences, actions and events would mean our lives are already set in stone, like you said "he is all-knowing, and he sent us here" - he knows every event that has taken place and will take place throughout all time, which means our universe is one big plan, of which believers constantly remind us: Gods Plan.
Almost every time you claim one of my arguments is fallacious, you yourself do so in a fallacious manner without even giving an argument as to why.
Any other time, you just say '', or 'that's stupid' or something like that. The fact is, you only address arguments when you think you have a chance to actually make a point against them. Once again, saying something is irrational doesn't make it so... you have to show why it is irrational.
You assume that foreknowledge of an event forces that event to happen. Your cause and effect is wrong.
I'll illustrate with a hypothetical situation: Tomorrow, a meteor is going to strike the earth. For the sake of this argument, this is a fact.
If nobody knows of this meteor, it is still going to strike the earth.
If I look through a telescope and see it, it is still going to strike the earth.
The fact of the meteor striking the earth doesn't depend on whether or not it is known. To say so means that knowledge of an event causes the event, but that simply isn't so.
No, not something like that. In fact, it would be a very clear and evidence act to say "that's stupid" - a statement that would be remembered. I never stated once anything you have claimed is stupid. Just for clarity sake.
Your hypothetical situation and your claim about foreknowledge are red herrings. If God knows every event that will occur throughout all time, then He knows that meteor will strike the earth killing billions. If it didn't strike the earth, he would know that, too.
Either way, He knows what will happen, hence it will happen. It's His plan.
Right, which is why I have a problem with the whole thing. God can't only have a plan for the good and lovely things in our lives right? He either knows all and planned it all, good and bad or not at all. In which case some people rationalize God planning horrible things by calling his lesson for us or his working in mysterious ways.
From my perspective I have free will. I can choose to do this or that or nothing. If in fact I am just following along God's plan for me then I don't have free will even if it feels like I do. If I or Satan or anyone or anything can change the path I'm on from what God planned for me then it's not a plan and he doesn't see everything that ever happens.
Absolutely not a red herring. You say that because he knows it will happen, it will happen.
You say that the thing that causes it to happen is the knowledge of it.
I showed how knowledge of an event is separate from whether the event will happen or not. Knowledge doesn't cause things to happen. It's very simple.
You did no such thing. Like other believers, you pull a real world example out of your hat that has absolutely nothing to do with the issue. Red herring, pal.
"Knowledge of an event doesn't cause the event to occur"
You say I didn't show that, because I used a hypothetical situation. Hypothetical situations are used to show a principle.
Here's another one. We had this framed photograph in our living room. We went on vacation, and when we came back, the nail had bent, the picture fell, and the frame broke.
Nobody was there, nobody saw it fall, nobody knew it was going to fall. The event happened even though it wasn't known.
Things happen whether someone knows they are going to happen or not. To say that God knows what we will do, therefore we have no choice, is to say that His knowledge defines our actions. With real-world examples, we can show that to be a case of confused cause and effect.
That is not true, God saw it fall and knew it fell.
Your God and real world cause and effect are two completely different things.
Did he? Can you prove it?
Care to explain? Cause and effect is a universal principle. Whenever something happens, it happens because something caused it.
I know, it is so lame for me to ask you to back up any of your arguments...
No, it's lame of you to say that considering the discussion. It shows you have nothing else to say. So, you're done.
I just keep talking to people... if I disagree, I state why I disagree.
No, I definitely listen when you say something like 'your argument is irrational'. However, lacking any real contribution or attempt to substantiate your claim, what more is there to listen to?
I'm not substantiating any claims, I am calling out your claims as irrational and fallacious and am asking YOU to substantiate them, which you never did. Instead, you have shifted the burden of proof to me.
Asking me to substantiate my claim? I provide evidence and logic. You claim that what I say is irrational and fallacious, without ever backing up your claim. You are shifting the burden of proving YOUR CLAIM to me.
That is fallacious.
Dishonest? I wish I could understand your thought process...
Care to walk us through it?
That's not easy for a believer as they have yet to form an understanding of what a thought process consists.
Ever had a plan yourself that got altered by what other people did?
Just because God has a plan for us, doesn't mean we can't spoil the plan (and our eternity) by doing our will rather than His.
Just means the plan unfolds easier when we do His will.
So god does not know all and see all in advance? We can mess up his plans?
That would make him less than omnipotent.
You are so very good at twisting.... That doesn't mean G'D Doesn't Know in advance. HE Knows... you're the one who doesn't... neither do any of the others around us, or in the heavens and in the depths of hell beneath us, know what is unfolding.
HE Knows, either way, whichever path you select. HE Knows everything...even what you will select. He Doesn't Limit your options though.
BLESSINGS to you... great BLESSINGS I pray. Amen.
If he already knows then my future is set in stone. No twisting about it. simple logic. And if we can't know how do you know that he does? You frankly can't.
If God knows us well enough to know everything we will ever do, and hence know where we will end up, then the only way you could say our future is 'set in stone' is that we have set our own future in stone by being us.
As I have demonstrated before, knowledge of an event doesn't cause it, so knowledge of where you will end up doesn't cause it to happen.
lol.. You are making this way too complicated. Logically knowledge of an event does not cause the event. Nor did I say it did. I told you to forget for a moment about a god and focus on the logic of principal we are discussing.
If the entire future of the universe is knowable, then that future is not changeable. It is set in stone. If it is not then the future is not knowable because it can be changed.
If it can be changed then you supposedly have free will. If it can not be changed you do not have free will.
It is simply a statement of logic.
Your scenario that god knows all of us so well that he knows exactly what we will do from moment to moment even before you are born means you can't change what god sees or knows. Therefore your future is already set in stone by who you are. Your conditioning, all the choices you will ever make. Everything is predetermined, not by god but by cause and effect.
And that is likely the case. There is no free will because you conditioning, environmental and genetic determine your choices.
So either way you have no free will. Your ignorance of the future and every detail that goes into all your choices gives you the illusion of free will.
You have will, but it is coerced by your conditioning and cause and effect..
Free will is an illusion. Simple as that. Because of your conditioning: who you are; your will can't be free.
I understand your argument, but I don't think you truly understand what you are saying. Your argument is that if the future is set in stone, then we have no free will. However, you are confusing cause and effect. It is true that the future is set in stone, because everything that is happening or ever will happen, is either happening or will happen. That includes our choices. The sum total of all the natural events of the universe, and all our choices, leads down only one possible line of future.
But, that one possible line of future doesn't cause us to act in one certain way. The way we act causes that one possible line of future. It is a simple matter of having the cause and effect reversed.
Think of it this way. I write a comic, 10 frames long. At the last frame, I come up with 'the end'. Everything that happened in the first 9 frames led to the 10th frame. This is easy to understand. It would be erroneous to say that everything happened in the first 9 frames because of the 10th frame.
Does that make sense? It's hard for me to put this into words because my natural way to explain it is to talk about different dimensions.
You can only make that argument if you don't believe in free will. If you do believe in free will, then everything is predetermined by the choices that I will make in life. It's a fact that I will do certain things in my life. We don't know what they are, but I am going to do them anyway. However, we only get there if I do them. The destination is defined by the journey, not vice versa.
Philosophically, that is an argument that has been made for a long time. Perhaps we are all 100% reflex. Perhaps we are in the dream of a butterfly. Who knows? To me, it makes more sense to think I'm real and I choose rather than react.
No one is saying that other than you, which is the flaw in your assertion.
God knows ALL 10 frames of the comic, He does not rely on the last frame, he relies on knowing ALL the frames will occur one after the other, each and every frame. Do you understand now?
You are writing the comic book, yes God knows your outcome, but you still decide how you get there, and if you get to the end frame with God or without Him.
Hence, the outcome and everything that lead to it was already written in stone if God knows it.
I decided nothing, I was unwittingly following a set in stone plan that could not be changed by me or anyone else, other than God.
Balderdash, in five minutes you could change the whole of the rest of your life, all it takes is to stop your rebellion and turn back to God, instead of turning your back to Him.
Whatever the end of your time here on earth brings will be ONLY by the decisions you make now.
On the other hand, if you think God knew what you would do, and allowed you to make those wrong decisions, then you cannot complain that He has rejected you, just because He knew you would never bow the knee to who He is.
Either way, it is your free will, God has neither forced you to love Him, nor forced you not to love Him.
Yes, if I decided to get a lobotomy, but that would take a little more than five minutes.
Along with all the influences, actions and events that take place throughout my life.
Then, God does not command worship and obedience? Since when?
Ignoring your ignorance, I will address just this point.
Worship and obedience stem from our meeting with God, they are a natural reaction to a spiritual encounter with an all powerful entity.
Your comment serves to show that your self willed rebellion is the most relevant portion of your existence, and you are prepared to forego an eternal experience of divine proportions in order to be the boss of all you command in this realm.
I understand, and feel pity for your inability to look beyond your own kingdom towards the Kingdom that God offers you as a new domain to expand within.
I have seen this scenario many times when I work with the homeless folk in our area, they get to a stage where they prefer a cardboard box where they rule, to a life in society where they need to obey rules.
As a result of that, we can do nothing except try to show them Christ through unconditional love.
In the circumstances where they get to understand the message, they return to society as useful members, and usually devote themselves to helping others.
Those who reject all assistance in order to remain their own king, normally die in obscurity (most have no identity) and are buried in a paupers unmarked grave.
LOL! You didn't address anything, you just filled a post with more nonsense and irrational beliefs while taking more pot shots at me.
Oh believe me, I have no need for your sympathy.
That's odd, I have no need of you focusing on me personally.
Stop making inane snide remarks of no merit and I will happily never reply to you again, or will reply with equal measure to the level of your response.
I have nothing against you personally, would imagine we would enjoy the banter over a few beers, but you do annoy with your inanities and snide remarks, and yes I should just ignore you, but you make replying in kind so easy to enjoy as well.
Lets face it, we are here to enjoy as well as educate.
But, this does not educate, it only serves to obfuscate and dumbfound...
"Worship and obedience stem from our meeting with God, they are a natural reaction to a spiritual encounter with an all powerful entity.
...we can do nothing except try to show them Christ through unconditional love.
Those who reject all assistance in order to remain their own king, normally die in obscurity (most have no identity) and are buried in a paupers unmarked grave."
I know he knows all 10 frames. The question is, does that knowledge define our actions, or do our actions define that knowledge?
If the knowledge defines the action, then we have no free will. If our actions define the knowledge, then we do.
Gobbledegook. You're spinning round and round again.
Just because you can't refute an argument doesn't make it 'Gobbledegook'.
Your posts stand on their own as gobbledegook, hence refutation is pointless.
You have a choice to select HIS Will for you or your own will for you. The entire platform of life is one that is being played out for a purpose... HIS PURPOSE. Ultimately, HIS Will will be done, whether or choose to participate in the culminating factors or not; however, HE Would never force you to be a part of HIS Will... only the enemy does that, using temptations and other strategies to which humanity is vulnerable.
The enemy doesn't know what lies ahead though. Satan is not omnipotent, omniscient, or omnipotent. Satan is not G'D's equal. The rebellion he instigated in heaven is not going to end in his usurping the Kingdom of G'D, or taking Sovereign Rule.
I know what I know by divine revelation, by reading the Scriptures, by caring to know enough, to ask HIM, by waiting to hear from HIM when I need an answer, and by testing where that answer comes from when it does arrive.
Mr. O'Brian... all of what I am saying means nothing to you. You cannot hear from HIM, neither can you know what I know with the same certainty, because you live to mock, negate and rebuff all that which pertains to HIM. In so doing, you have shut yourself off from HIM.
If HE Were to desire to reach through to you, in the manner which you demand... by SHOWING HIMSELF to you... then you would know what I know; however, HE Doesn't have to do it. The fact that you demand this from HIM is a joke.
You... a mere man... expecting THE LIVING G'D to try to appease your invalidation of all that HE IS, all that HE LIVES to accomplish... you can't even give yourself to thinking how completely ridiculous this is, because you've closed yourself off to HIM.
The only one laughing with you, and especially 'at you' is the devil, because all you are working to prove substantiates his efforts. As I said in another post, you are doing his work for him.
As sorrowful as I feel to say so, when you are before G'D ALMIGHTY you will have no excuses... especially considering the depth, and comprehensive value of this Forum Thread... it may be filled with nonsense, but you and several others here are proving beyond any doubt that you fully understand the significance of what you are saying, the mockery you are making of HIM and the example you are setting for those who are too confused to clarify the issue independently, or those who know how to discern for themselves any semblance of truth.
The fact that you persist in denying G'D'S Existence and the fact that some of us have repeatedly tried to make sense of HIS Existence to you, only to be berated for our beliefs (not directly each time), or to have our comments twisted, ridiculed, purposely misinterpreted, and/or contorted... the fact that these same individuals feel so powerful to be able to make those who are unsure, or those who are not well informed look silly or sound featherbrained... all these elements are part of the reasons why G'D WILL NOT meet you where you are.
HIS MERCIES Extend in manifestations that are more amazing than words can express, but I would be a fool and even irresponsible to continue wanting to post examples of those manifestations to you or the others who are inclined toward atheism or pantheism, or whatever...
I'm not giving up on you though. G'D IS SO GOOD! ... SO GOOD! That HE MAY Have plans for you that will cause you to change your mind none-the-less. Why?
I don't know what he has planned, but what I do know is that HE IS ABLE to do things neither of us have a clue HE Has Prepared. If/when HE Does those who are recipients of HIS Extension Will by no means question WHO IS In Control then.
G'D BLESS you, Mr. O'Brian...
When I meet him we will talk. Till then I can't take your or anyone's word for it. You can't know. Your faith gives you the illusion that you do know as does your confirmation bias. But you don't and you can't.
I wish you a wonderful life.
You carry on deluding yourself if you wish. But if the warmongers get their way you will see many of the people that you know die. If you have any children that are of military age then you really should be worried.
The fact is: if what we believe were to cause 'the warmongers" to decide to annihilate us, is that not part of the very prophecy you are so keen to say was a failure?
Believers in Yeshua fully expect persecution for their faith. We are not oblivious to the changes in our world that are fixated on permitting every foul practice except that one they consider intolerant, because it refuses to compromise a standard.
I don't have children who are in the military. I do have children who will be vulnerable to any vicious attacks if 'the warmongers get their way'; but tell me, Sir, is this new? Are there not people in various parts, all over this globe, who already suffer unspeakable torture and persecution as a result of their uncompromising faith.
Now think, just for a minute: Would you be willing to die, or to watch your children, whom you love more than you love your own life, for something that is a 'delusion'?
I think not.
I, for one, know what I believe; and I can only hope and pray that if the time arrives, in my lifetime, when persecution, torment and horror were to be applied as a method of 'forcing me to negate my faith, I would be strong enough NOT to fail G'D, but to receive that persecution with the same attitude and meek power the martyrs of old received it. In all things I pray HIS NAME IS GLORIFIED through me, despite whatever heinous structures are projected against me. Why? Because G'D IS REAL. I would never lay my life down for a figment of my imagination, or a lie. Neither would any, who like me, may be caught in the fray.
G'D BLESS you, Sir... may HE BLESS you abundantly, mercifully... tenderly. In JESUS of Nazareth. Amen.
The war that is coming will not be in defence of your faith - it will be fought to further enrich those that are already rich: the 1%. You believe that it is your faith that is under attack; it isn't, but that is what they want you to believe. And you bought it. Now wake up and grow up before you get us all killed.
Mr. Dunn (I hope I have that right)...
I would never get you killed. However, we will all die. That is the culmination of life. That 1% will continue to exist, with agendas that we cannot hinder, because we're helpless to do so in a fallen world.
I haven't been deluded into believing my 'faith' is under attack. Read the comments in this Thread... my faith is under attack...
I'm awake. So awake, it would scare you sometimes. I'm sorry you see me (and my kind) as a threat though.
That's actually funny. Nero blamed the Christians for the 'war' he caused too.
Dear deluded, it is your ignorance of the Real World and the forces that drive it - the forces that use religion to dictate your perception of the World that they want you to see; a world in which they are invincible - that constitutes the threat.
You personally are no threat - it is the ignorance that you share with others that lets the rich and powerful get away with murder.
Thankfully people are now waking up to the threat that the 1% represent. People are now marching and demonstrating for change - they will eventually take the 'agendas that we cannot hinder' and tear them to pieces.
Religion is now gradually losing its grip on the minds of men. It might not be apparent to some; but then these are the people who could never see the writing on the wall anyway. The old hierarchies are beginning to fall and the divine right of kings to rule has finally been broken.
Welcome to a brave new world.
Thank you for your compliments. You are too kind.
I'll just have to live with my ignorance. You live with yours...
I pray you go far in your efforts to 'tear to pieces the agendas of the 1%'.
It is a brave new world. I'm happy to be a part of it. I'm glad you're a part of it. Most of all, I'm happy to know G'D is in CONTROL. So, I don't have to burden myself with any 'agendas'... I leave it to HIM.
I can see you really don't like me. No problem. I'm okay with it.
...and I'm glad 'religion is losing it's grip on the minds of men'. I hate religion myself. ...
We have more in common than you know...
Have a good day, Mr. Dunn.
G'D BLESS you in all you do.
Where do you get 'I don't like you' from? I don't know you. I haven't a view either way on whether you are a likeable person or not.
I disagree with you on all issues discussed here - just as you disagree with me. On that - I think - we can agree.
Hey, we don't understand why GOD did what He did. But the Bible explains it all and it makes perfect sense, if you believe, it's very logical.
How could it be logical; it is sheer cruelty to kill one's son? Do you have a son or a daughter? Is it logical of you to kill anyone of them?
You say we don't understand why and in the next sentence you say it makes perfect sense and that it's logical. I'm not sure I understand that.
Where did this come from?
You must have your own manual on Jesus, one I've never heard exists...
The sad thing is, that for every wrong precept I read about on this Forum Thread, there's another more facetious one on the horizon.
I believe there are so many who don't know what they're talking about. A matter of uneducated guesses being laid down as truth. I'm truly sad to know such erroneous teachings spread as easily as they do.
I'd like to say, "I'm done with it...", but I can't help wonder if there is some gullible, seeker out there reading some of the unsubstantiated drivel presented on these pages.
If so... do your own homework. Don't believe anything anyone else tells you. Find out for yourself. Ask G'D. Question HIM all you like. Take Him to every length you can think of and then keep going. HE Can answer for HIMSELF if you want TRUTH.
If you're too lazy, stubborn or otherwise inclined and want to continue reading here... G'D BLESS you. G'D ALONE CAN. .. it won't be easy to discern truth from lie, especially when so many haven't done their homework.
BLESSINGS to anyone who reads this, IN THE MAJESTIC and POWERFUL NAME of JESUS, THE SON of GD, THE FAITHFUL WITNESS, THE FIRSTBORN of the DEAD, and RULER of The Kings of the earth. Amen.
You are right. Many of those against the bible and God do spout off about things they have no idea of. Most are angry and need christianity to be false. Many have listened to bad theories and taken on chagrined views. They can't help it, deception is just that, deception but coupled with anger and failure, well, thats trouble that needs some attention.
Good to be here.
Yes autumn. You are right. We live in a system. The system owns us and we have no say. We are born with a social security number that tracks everything that we do. And without that number there isnt much we can do.They are the authority. We can plead a case before the system like we can before God as well. No one on heaven or earth can take that away. Yes you have free will just like you have free will in any country to do what you want, within limits. The point of it is that most people focus on the fact that they have 'no power' in their lives and the concept of surrendering to that power bugs them considering that they never had any power to begin with from the moment they were born. We are all accountable, and we all surrender to our respective governments. And in that surrender its just like we would be if we 'sinned' against the government or in this case translation, we were to 'commit a crime worthy of a fine, or incarceration'. That fear thats instilled in us has us to respect those authorities for fear of imprisonment and losing our freedom. But we seldom look at those who function that 'want' our benefit. People see God as a dictator, and since He owns everything, a person's natural instinct is go 'oh yeah? think so? well I dont see him' and because they cant see him, perceive him, they are limited to what they can see, which is Christians. And when Christians dont lead by example, because we are not perfect they don't believe. God's word sais 'faith comes by hearing' and hearing the word of God. Children of God will continue to spread the word of God for as long as we are in existence. We aren't perfect, we do the best we can, but ultimately it's God who reveals himself to people and in the end that IS your free will. You can choose God's life and his plan or you don't. And the wages of sin is death. God's plan for you is in Jeremiah 29:11 He sais 'I know the plans I have for you, Plans to prosper you and not to harm you. Plans to give you a hope and a future'. But its up to you to allow him into your heart and clear the clutter of life, worry, fear and misunderstanding that you might have.
Why obsess about another's religion . . . unless you are up next for a human sacrifice?
It would make more sense if it had happened in the teenage years. teenage sons can drive you to murder.
It is sheer cruelty of the Christian god to even attempt to kill his own son.
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