WHERE DO THE CHRISTIANS GET TRINITY FROM?
The bulk of Christendom believes that God is one but triune, an existence of three in one. They believe that the trinity comprises of the father, son and the holy ghost. These all three aren’t three different Gods but one. Let us analyze what is the stand of trinity in Islam. Allah says in the Quran in surah an nisa chapter 4 verse 171
O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
Now let us analyze what the bible has to say about trinity. The verse in the bible closest to trinity is from the first epistle of John chapter5 verse7
7. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
It would be interesting to note that this verse has been expunged from the revised standard version (RSV) by 32 scholars of highest eminence backed by 50 different denominations. The revised standard version is considered as ‘The most accurate bible by christendom’, going back to the oldest manuscripts.
The common Christians go on with their belief due to their ignorance. Some give an example of the existence of water, ice and steam three forms of the same thing. I do agree that water can exist in three different forms as water, ice and vapor or steam. If we analyze closely we see that though water changes its state from liquid to solid, its constituents remain the same, ie two molecules of hydrogen and one molecule of oxygen. The compactness of the packing of these molecules changes when it is solid(tightly packed),liquid (loosely packed) and gas (more loosely packed).Let us see whether the same is true in the case of trinity. The ‘son’ and ‘holy ghost’ are not the same as Jesus was made of flesh and blood and had a body and the spirit does not, man needs to eat and drink a spirit does not. This is evident from Luke chapter 24 verse 39-43
39. Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40. And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them [his] hands and [his] feet.
41. And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42. And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43. And he took [it], and did eat before them.
Moreover Jesus(pbuh) did not ask his people to believe in trinity to enter the kingdom of heaven.he instead asked them to keep th commandments and follow himIn Gospel of Mathew chapter12:16
6. And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17. And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19. Honour thy father and [thy] mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21. Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.
Trinitarian belief in the Christian world comes from Greek philosophy. Sectarian Christians today act as if it is something that has only been debated in modern times, but that is false. It was a subject of intense debate for several centuries.
The Bible does not testify of a "trinitarian" God. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are separate and distinct individuals.
Actually, GrayKnight, the trinity concept doesn't come from Greek philosophy. Meaning the Greeks were not the originators of a triad godhead. The culture of the Sumerians, which flourished over 4,000 years ago describes an ancient Sumerian trinity: Anu was the primary god of heaven, the ‘Father’, and the ‘King of the Gods’; Enlil, the ‘wind-god’ was the god of the earth, and a creator god; and Enki was the god of waters and the ‘lord of wisdom’. Eygptians had their 3, Babylonians had their 3, Hindus had their 3, etc. etc.
What most Christians don't realize is that Judaism & the Old Testament don't espouse a three god in one concept. Nor do they realize their own folly: many of them believe Christianity is the only religion preaching the real Supreme Creator. If this is true, don't you think a Super-intelligent Being would reveal His throne as unique from other religious concepts? The 3-God idea--no matter how you divide or unite them--is not unique. In fact such a notion reveals itself to be quite awkward.
It is a false belief and tradition too many modern Christians embrace, wrongly. There is no trinity with God, Jesus and holy spirit. Unfortunately early so-called christian leaders, Constantine for one, decided with Pagans if you can't beat em join em, and wrongly enveloped false pagan beliefs into churches. Not good!!
The sad thing about people who believe in this Trinity deception is that they're merely retelling what their pastors, priests, or ministers have TOLD THEM. They haven't researched the concept themselves. They're comfortable in someone else telling them lies.
Here is the BIGGEST indicator that the Holy Spirit isn't a literal personage. According the canonized Bible (66 books), from Genesis to Revelation there IS NOT ONE, just ONE verse where you read the Holy Spirit speaking. Why is that? The H.S. never says a word, but the Father and Son does. What family role does the H.S. play in connection with Father and Son? Maybe Uncle, or Brother, or Nephew, perhaps Mom?
The Father and Son's documented words verify they're literal persons. But the H.S. is silent. How come? Is he shy? Is he a mute? Perhaps he just doesn't speak Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, or English. Yes, yes, that's it. Sorry ya'll, the dilemma is solved. The H.S. is a real Divine Person, he just can't speak our languages.
Anybody know sign languages?
Shadowking, I respect your opinion, however, I do not appreciate the assumption you have made of me and many more. I was raised a Baptist, stayed in church for several years, listened to many sermons, BUT something on the inside of me kept saying, listen and learn. The more I listened, the more I learned. One thing I learned was the sermons, are more than likely the opinion of the pastor that is delivering them.
The Trinity does exist. The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit.
In the beginning, I think it is sate to say that we all agree, God was a Spirit. Then, things progress, creation was finished, God spoke to many, many believed, many, asked how to we trust what we can't see, and it is for that reason that God became flesh. And thus creating the Trinity.
If you wouldn't mind, would you read 1 Timothy 3:16. If you read this, AND research it, you will meet the Trinity.
You are correct in one thing, the Holy Spirit does not orally speak. It is that small still voice inside each of us.
Although, I gather you may just be trying to be cute, and I overlook the insinuation of incest of the Trinity, I firmly believe we are not to mock God.
I hope you find your answers. It is a very unsettling or uneasy feeling not KNOWING.
In respect, Mom101, Would you rather have me write a thoroughly factual and textually-based hub disproving the Trinity deception?
I'm not mocking God, I'm mocking the belief. And what is that verse suppose to prove? I suppose you're reading it from the KJV or NASB or NIV. How about reading from Young's Literal Translation?
"God was manifested in flesh, declared righteous in spirit, seen by messengers, preached among nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory!"
This is near perfect to the Greek words. (Oh, by the way, I speak and read transliterated Greek. Among too Hebrew, Latin, Spanish, and some French) So nothing in 1 Tim. 3:16 mentions three crowned Gods as one. You may not believe me (but read my religious hubs for clarity) I don't do like a lot of people "hear" someone say something that at "face value" sounds remarkable then run off "proclaiming it" as a "common fact". I, mama, do my homework. I research THOROUGHLY everything I believe to be a fraud. I'm not claiming self-righteousness, no not that. Just that I've discovered that the Trinity theory is a borrowed idea from non-Judaic beliefs from which Christianity DID NOT sprout from. Catholicism organized Christianity, which was originally called "Christendom". Catholic bishops borrowed the concept from Sumerian ideology after long debating if the Bible propagated it. Some held the notion that a 3-God rulership wasn't being espoused in the Hebraic & Greek manuscripts and voted not to support it. Others did, believing even the "pagans" recognized it.
(Interjection: this is how far Catholicism has tainted ours thinking: the word "pagan" originally meant "country-dweller" but papal sermons twisted it to mean "heathen". Thus we call Satanic-influenced beliefs "pagan".)
Back to main point: So Jerome, who stood with the Catholic Trinitarians, when writing the Latin Vulgate ADDED these bracketed [ ] words to 1 John 5:7-8:
"For there are three that bear record [in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in the earth], the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one."
The KJV ADDED them TOO even though they CAN NOT be found in ANY Greek manuscript. The verse original reads:
"For there are three that bear record the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one."
No, mom, I cannot & will not believe in something false that I MYSELF have researched. You may of course for that is your American right: freedom of religion.
Thank you as I respectfully conclude my reply.
Interesting. Is there any difference between a believer mocking another believers beliefs and a non-believer mocking a believers belief?
But, if you believe it to be a fraud and others believe it not to be a fraud, then you are as guilty of running off "proclaiming it as a common fact" as they are.
Debuting or orchestrating?
If your comment is referring to me, Beelzedad, then your rhetoric doesn't make me precieve myself as a hypocrite as it might to someone else. Let's stick to the logic.
1st, what do YOU mean by "believer"?
2nd, that middle comment, it's baseless to my stance because I'm not "guilty" of "proclaiming the Trinity deception is" real. But understand why I say that. It's because of how you worded it. GUILTY is an adjective meaning "to be responsible for a reprehensible act". Reprehensible in connection to act carries the sense of a condemnable or criminal action. So if I'm guilty of doing something, then I'm at faulty for committing a condemnable or criminal act.
Tell me please: what illegal crime am I guilty of?
Your use of the word guilty is in flaw, sir. Perhaps, just perhaps, you chose it to make me look like I'm a contradicting self-righteous know-it-all. My other comments refute such a notion.
The point is (what many just do seem to get) is that one can only "claim" to be proving the trinity valid by "HIS or HER interpretation" of the Bible. An interpretation DOESN'T make a claim a FACT unless one can literally SEE or HEAR the evidence. So tell me: who in this forum has literally SEEN 3 Spirits calling themselves ONE God? The other flip-side to that is that one can only "claim" to be disproving the trinity CONCEPT is invalid by LITERALLY providing "textual evidence" that certain people conspired to "influence" others to believe THEIR belief.
From Mosaic Law times to New Testament Writings:
Again, the Trinity concept is not from Judaic belief. Polycrap (70-155 AD)--Apostle John's most respected student--was Bishop of Smyrna. He didn't preach a trinity. If Jesus had taught this to John, he would have taught it to his star disciple. Jesus told John to write this: "And to the angel [messenger--a real person] of the church in Smyrna write...'I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan." At the time this was written Polycarp was Bishop of Smyrna. Jesus went on to say Satan was about to hinder & confuse the real doctrines of God.
In The Didache (a widely read 1st-3rd Century Christian treatise) doesn't acknowledge any belief in a Trinity. Neither does the Shepherd of Hermas. Both these writings, read and taught out of by John & Polycarp, don't mention a trinity concept.
Early 4th Century:
Theologian Dr. Arius tried to dispute certain Catholic bishops' allegation that a 3 God union was mentioned in the Bible. Arius drew on the manuscripts & sermons of John, Polycarp, & Iraenius. But Catholicism triumphed. In 325 A.D. the Nicean Council convened on the mattered with Constantine influenced by bishops declared there was a Holy Trinity. Other bishops disagreed. In fear of a great controversy, the Trinitarians commissioned Jerome to write the Vetus Latina (New Testament in Latin) and the Latin Vulgate (whole Bible) to insert their trinity take.
The truth is written in history. It proves my stance on the matter. But it disagrees with Trinitarian concepts originating from the Bible.
Most rarely see themselves as hypocrites.
I don't mean anything by "believer" other than what is based on the usual definition.
LOL! Nice strawman argument. Good deflection from the topic.
Do they really? I didn't see that at all.
Their interpretation is no more or less valid then your intrepretation.
Who in this forum has seen any gods? You?
Your interpretation adds conspiracy theories, hence it is less valid.
Again, your interpretation is no more or less valid, regardless of some truths you might assume exist. The fact that you inject conspiracy theories into your argument makes it look that much less valid.
Topic is ridiculous. The evidence is inside of us for a reality beyond past conception. It is simple: Inside of me resides my father, his contribution to my present gene composition is undeniable, Inside of me resides that which my mother contributed, yet I am neither, I am a third being a combo of the two.
Again, you're using baseless rhetoric to fight a losing battle. That wasn't strawman. Your comment was strawman. Your lack of insight and historical knowledge convicts you of deficient points of reasons.
For the record: I didn't use conspiracy theories. Much of what I said is taught as curriculum in theological seminaries and college theological courses.
Do your homework, man.
All that states is that you believe you're right and everyone else is wrong.
There's nothing unreasonable about your belief contradicting another belief when both are just beliefs.
For the record, you did, right here:
"It's shame ya'll are just recycling a false belief orchestrated by ancient power-hungry Catholic bishops."
Do they really teach that stuff in theological courses?
What's with the "BAM"? LOL!
Your argument is still baseless, Beel. I'm not claiming to be the only one right, you're just saying I'm believing it. And if you don't get what I meant by what is taught in theological courses, sorry you've missed. BAM!
As long as we argue about the S--t that don't even matter ???? there isn't anyone talking about the stuff that really counts.
There's that "BAM" again. It must mean the conversation is over and you're right and I'm wrong.
Seems I remember that kind of behavior, when I was in kindergarten.
i agree the trinity is not a biblical teaching it is pagan, the same as christmas is pagan.,
Christmas , Easter, Halloween, New Year's, etc. Perhaps the only holiday original in America devoid of pagan origins is Thanksgiving & Independence Day.
They may be pagan holidays but I still like them!
I think it's interesting to know that there are other books that predate the Bible. I don't think of it as a threat to Christianity, rather it gives me a better picture of what times were like before Christianity and what may have set the fertile ground for it. Quite interesting.
The Roman Catholic Church's quest for religious supremacy is was "set the fertile ground" for Christianity. There are millions of books that predate the 1611 published KJV of the Words of God. Yes, of course. But very few organized literary works predate the Book of Genesis, which historians claim to have been written on 1 1/2 scrolls.
I've read many works attempting to discredit the Trinity concept, and nearly all of them have failed to draw a compelling picture of the origins of "a triune godship". Some don't even attempt to explain why God is Two or One, thus their writings are easily discredited.
I'll be debuting my hub about it in mid-August. (The 1st two weeks are booked up with other hubs to come.) You--anyone else--are welcome to check it out around August 16-19.
I think the fertile ground was set even before that. After the death of Christ, Christian groups grew to the point that they broke off as a branch of Judaism and became a new religion.
Yes I understand that, however, where was their proof? What proof did they provide? I am looking for tangible evidence. Something to see, feel, and know to be fact.
Just because you read something, does not mean its true. You must have proof of the connection. I've read countless of books on this theory, or on that opinion........., but nothing concrete. However, I would love to read your hub when it comes out. Keep me in mind, and email your hub. Thanks.
Where is the evidence that supports your two's opinion? Is this just an opinion, or do you actually have some concrete proof that the trinity is pagan. I would like to see it. In all my studies I have never been able to make that intimate connection. However, I get excited to learn something new everyday.
To all who believe the Trinity is a pagan belief, I must say this. The Trinity does exist. Read and RESEARCH 1Timothy 3:16. I explained it in an earlier reply, I doubt you read it.
As far a the pagan remark, why do you like name calling or labeling? Is there security in it for you? If so, may I suggest, if it is security you are looking for, then there is no safer place to look than The Rock.
To IntimalEvolution, I posted an earlier reply that explains the Trinity. I hope you will find it a learning experience.
The most hilarious thing about those who believe in the trinity is that they claim that this is what makes God unique, but really there are a number of pagan trinities; and one thing they share in common? A lot of times there's a female member of their trinities. There are religious sects who have linked these female goddesses with the Holy Spirit.
What is up with the name calling? Why are so many people so insecure that they have to resort to name calling and labeling?
As far as WHAT makes God unique is the fact HE IS GOD. Period.
It is ok I promise you to admit, hey, I get it that the Trinity does exist. If you feel comfortable calling God pagan, then, that is your right I suppose. He IS ALL to ALL (even if they haven't figured it out just yet. Maybe, there's too much smoke for them to see clearly) but one day, ALL will see and the mystery of the Trinity will be a mystery no more.
Oh yeah, God has humor too.
I don't recall calling you any name. I simply said that I found it hilarious when trinity believers love to claim that their triune god is unique, when in reality he's not.
Osrisis, Isis, and Horus called; they want their triune identity back.
Oh hey, sorry I missed this post. I will go investigate. Thanks.
Well, im no christian, but they are kind of a threesome to christians. Like, the thre devine entities. What is confusing about that?
When Jesus sends out his Apostles to evangelize and baptize He instructs them to Baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. (see Holy Bible, Matthew: 28:19) Three Persons one God, the triune God.
I found this and I hope it helps.
“God is a trinity of persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father is not the same person as the Son; the Son is not the same person as the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit is not the same person as Father. They are not three gods and not three beings. They are three distinct persons; yet, they are all the one God. Each has a will, can speak, can love, etc., and these are demonstrations of personhood. They are in absolute perfect harmony consisting of one substance. They are coeternal, coequal, and copowerful. If any one of the three were removed, there would be no God.
Jesus, the Son, is one person with two natures: Divine and Human. This is called the Hypostatic Union. The Holy Spirit is also divine in nature and is self aware, the third person of the Trinity.
There is, though, an apparent separation of some functions among the members of the Godhead. For example, the Father chooses who will be saved (Eph. 1:4); the Son redeems them (Eph. 1:7); and the Holy Spirit seals them, (Eph. 1:13).
A further point of clarification is that God is not one person, the Father, with Jesus as a creation and the Holy Spirit as a force (Jehovah's Witnesses). Neither is He one person who took three consecutive forms, i.e., the Father, became the Son, who became the Holy Spirit. Nor is God the divine nature of the Son (where Jesus had a human nature perceived as the Son and a divine nature perceived as the Father (Oneness theology). Nor is the Trinity an office held by three separate Gods, and many other gods throughout space (Mormonism).
The word "person" is used to describe the three members of the Godhead because the word "person" is appropriate. A person is self aware, can speak, love, hate, say "you," "yours," "me," "mine," etc. Each of the three persons in the Trinity demonstrate these qualities.
The first step is to establish the biblical doctrine that there is only one God. Then, you find that each of the persons is called God, each creates, each was involved in Jesus' resurrection, each indwells, etc. Therefore, God is one, but the one God is in three simultaneous persons. The idea of a composite unity is not a foreign concept to the Bible; after all, man and wife are said to be one flesh. The idea of a composite unity of persons is spoken of by God in Genesis (Gen. 2:24).
There is only one God
The first step is to establish how many Gods exist: one! Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; 45:5,14,18,21,22; 46:9; 47:8; John 17:3; 1 Cor. 8:5-6; Gal. 4:8-9
"I am the LORD, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God," (Isaiah 45:5).
“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me," (Isaiah 44:6).”
The doctrine of the Trinity is arrived at by looking at the whole of scripture, not in a single verse. It is the doctrine that there is only one God, not three, and that the one God exists in three persons: Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. An analogy would be time. Time is past, present, and future. But, there are not three times, only one.”
Thank you. 1 Timothy 3:16. I hope it helps you to further describe the Triune Nature of God.
Rhetoric, SpiderPam, simple rhetoric. You're basically playing on words by drawing similarities between the Father and Son's power. The Holy Spirit is simply the power of God, the active instrumentality by which Father/Son make nonexistent and unknown things REAL.
Tell me: since the Father has a personal name, the Son has a personal name--What is the Holy Spirit's personal name? Umm, oh-oh-oh, I got it--Comforter, right?
You-all still haven't explained what Family role-title does the Holy Spirit play in the Elohim Family Kingdom? Is it Mother God, Brother God, Uncle God...?
This is essential in proving if the Holy Spirit has an active MIND, thinking capability. Since you can't provide Biblical validity to the HS's family role--it is not a Divine Person.
My hub thoroughly trouncing this deception will be debuting in the 2nd week of August.
Ok. First, I would like to ask, whats up with all the labels? Everybody has their own opinion, and that is what is great about sharing.
I have read the Bible, I respect other peoples views and if one is true to what they believe AND they follow that, then that in itself is the good part.
As far as the Trinity is concerned, it is my heart felt belief that the Trinity does most certainly exist. It is a fairly easy concept to explain and that is what I feel led to do.
The Trinity came about in a series of action. And the Trinity Is because of many peoples disbelief.
God, in His Word, we learn is a Spirit. Meaning, Life, just without a body. Moses and many others that God spoke to, they believed, but many more could not, (not would not) believe that a spirit spoke.
To help those that needed to be shown, God did just that. Quiet simply He showed up. Scripture is plain spoken of the exact how it was done. and the why as well.
1 Timothy 3:16 explains it, the Trinity, in the best detail I have found.
I did not make the connection to the trinity, in First Timothy 3:16. This letter that Timothy had written to the Ephesian Church, before his scheduled arrival, was talking about the profound nature of Christ. So I do not see the connection.
It does center in on Christ, appearing in the flesh, then vindicated by the holy spirit when Christ arose from the dead. But that is where it falls short. It doesn't go on to speak of the interconnection between the three. However, if you read John 14:16-17, and then John 14:25-29, directly speaks of a correlation between "the advocate/Holy Spirit," "Heavenly Father/God," and the "son of God/Jesus Christ."
It is from these personal biblical references, found in John, which teaches us the "new order" of prayer. I say "new order" because back then in John's time, Christianity was a new religious order.
Thanks for your post. I love talking biblical stuff. This is the most interesting religious thread- in a long time here at HubPages.com.
Because there is no valid connection. Also Paul wrote 1 & 2 Timothy. Read my comment about how Roman Catholic writer Jerome got nearly 1.9 billion Christians believing in a lie.
It appears about two of my comments up, addressed to Mom101.
1 Timothy 3:16 Breakdown: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:God was manifest in the flesh, (done so for the ones who could/would not believe in what they could not physically see). Justified (driven to do so by who the Holy Spirit), seen of Angels, preached unto the Gentiles, (God in flesh (Jesus), preaching to people, believed on in the world, and received up into glory.
Lesson implied here: God, as the Spirit, spoke to many but since many could/would not believe He (still Spirit) decided to become flesh. He did so, Follow, at this point, we have Spirit, no flesh, just Spirit, and God who now becomes flesh, (Jesus) and preaches to the people..........
Of your insistence on the Spirit having forms of people aka aunt, uncle, or whatever, I am sorry but my family members all have bodies.
The Spirit is the little voice inside of us that God uses to speak to us.
Why is it that somehow I think you KNOW what I am saying, and you are testing me to see if I can explain it.
The trinity, is not a mere belief. It is Deity. And nothing to be mocked, just as is religion, nothing to argue over. I admit, there is PLENTY I have yet to learn. But, of what I do KNOW is rock solid.
I do not speak any language other than my native speech.
The labels, I do not agree with. I have a problem with being called names just because I believe a certain way.
Native Americans, in my eyes, are more closely in tune with Nature/God than any denomination I have studied, but they get labeled as pagan which I believe it was you that pointed out today's interpret of pagan is heathen.
Shadowking, good luck with your upcoming hub. As far as homework goes, I've done my share.
No hard feelings here, and I hope that He shines His LIght on each step of your path.
No hard feelings here either. I believe I'm not the one to reveal to you or anyone the fallacy of Trinity theory. I've stated many times before to others: it's not my job to teach anyone any thing nor do I eager for that opportunity. I define my so-called humanitarian job as "to relate to people the misconceptions, misinterpretations, and plain falsehoods of things." I just present the logic back by facts. That said (1) I here is another biblical study task.
Find me one scripture where Jesus states they He, the Holy Spirit, and the Father are one God and I'll recant everything I've written. Show me in the Bible if you can, what family role-title the H.S. is in relation to the Father & Son, if indeed he/it is a Divine Person. Show me where the H.S. speaks just ONE word.
Explain to me (if the H.S. is equal to F. & S) why it’s role and presence is absent from Revelation basically from Chapter 1 to Chapter 21, only appearing briefly in Chpt. 22.
These questions you should ask yourself because if someone who understands logical presentation reads this forum, who isn't Christian, he or she would see that Trinitarians really don't know by facts what they believe. Because none of you have answered these questions? Remember, I’m not attacking you, I’m just debunking your claims of Holy Spirit Godhood.
Well I'm not testing you. That never occurred to me. But I like to unravel scripture. It is a very powerful way of learning. To be a better, well-rounded person. For me, I don't usually read the Apostle Paul's epistles. Why? They are his own private interpretations of what Christ was saying. Well I can interpret Christ's words for myself, and I don't usually need Paul's two-bits to do so. Note my John passages. I'm a gospel thumper. What I mean by this is that I study the true words and life of Christ; from the people who walked this earth with him. Paul never even met Christ, he never even heard one of Christ's speeches. John did.
Timothy, to whom the letter was written to, was a follower of Paul's religious sect. The letter Timothy was written to Timothy by Paul, in preparation of Paul's scheduled visit. As with all interpretations with secondhand knowledge, there is a lot of room for debate.
My asking you questions was my attempt at learning something new. Maybe there was something Paul had to say, that was worth learning. I follow the teachings of James, Jesus's brother and the way of the disciples. The Ebionites, as they were known to be. Paul was a pagan Gentile who converted to Christianity. Though he did a lot of good for Christianity, he also embellished on Christ's message.
If you are truly trying to learn something new, like I am trying to do, then may I just suggest again that you read:
John 14:16-17, and then John 14:25-29, which directly speaks of a the correlation between "the advocate/Holy Spirit," "Heavenly Father/God," and the "son of God/Jesus Christ."
It is from these personal biblical references made by Christ (not Paul), which can be found in John, which teaches us the "new order" of prayer. I say "new order" because back then in John's time, Christianity was a new religious order.
Do we agree, yes. Do I know what you are saying, sure. A better scripture however for your argument, I feel can be found in John. It is very clear. It uses the exact words. There is no need to interpret anything. It speaks quite clear to the reader, on what it is talking about. Whereas your scripture, falls short for me, and so I'm sure falls short for the people you might be trying to convince. That's all.
I was under the impression that you also wanted to learn something new. That's all. Just wanted to share.
Always up to learn new facts. Yes, the Scripture does explain a little differently. The testing comment was for ShadowKing. (He's a great debater) I think he is just testing us, you know, to make sure we know our subject well enough to explain it. The Tim verse is one that I use when I am teaching younger kids. Somehow most have understood it. Trinity. It is a hard issue to explain.
Thanks for sharing. That is why we are here.
Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are the same Person, just distinctly manifested in different forms for the purposes God intended to show mankind. Never separate, just distinct.
God the father has a body like a man, thus he declared; "Let us make man in our image."
This one I'm not sure of.
I find it hard to believe that God Himself has a "body" that can be measured in height or width, etc.
I once heard a missionary preacher say that he had seen the Holy Ghost, and that he (the Holy Ghost) was about yay tall and etc....
if I hadn't been in Church, I probably would've busted out laughing.
Right, right. God has a nose because he breathes in oxygen. If we jump on him and pinch his nostrils shut, we can kill god. Awesome, huh? And he's got ears and ear drums, just like everybody else, so there's no way he can hear your distant and mundane prayers way up there in the stratosphere. Where there is no oxygen for him to breathe in to his blood supply to keep his body going.
And he's got eyes like us -limited vision, so as long as you aren't in range of any satellites feel free to do yer thing, cuz he can't see you anyway. And he's got a big old third leg hanging all the way down between his knees. He cheated you guys on that one, hah! Just like a man, gotta have the biggest one.
And that's what he uses to make all the lesser gods -jesus, thor, zeus, FSM and the Teapot, Spongebob Squarepants (my favorite deity), and of course onusonus and all the rest of the god-bound mormons.
Yep god screws humans, many bastard gods are the result, we all eat, drink and be merry and then god cuts loose with a loud one and excuses himself to go take a s___. Cause he's just like us, respiratory, digestive, reproductive and nervous systems, a grand imagination, confused sense of right and wrong, tendencies towards psychotic episodes and all.
So don't bother being impressed. Clearly he's just another messed up being which someone created very perfectly in our image. He died a long time ago despite his huge knocker, and so we don't say his name cause that's taboo, but we honor everything our ancient granddaddy said cause he was once the leader of a tribe of our ancestors. Before he croaked thousands of years ago and we foolishly and mistakenly idolized him.
Actually I think he's more like superman without the costume with better powers and senses. But that's how I see him.
Jesus told his Apostles to go Baptize in the name of the Father, The Son, and the Holy Ghost. In the books of Acts it shows his Apostles baptizing In The Name of Jesus. Jesus is one of the names of God. I am a mother, a daughter, a sister. I am only one person.
In the beginning was The Word. The Word "was" God, The Word was "with" God. The "Word" was made flesh and dwelt among us.
yes but the trinity teaches god and Jesus are the same,. you are not the same as your mother, even though you are a mother.
No, my mother and I aren't the same, but, I can't create life by speaking the word either.
In the beginning was the word. The Word "was" God. The word was "with" God. The Word" was made "Flesh" and "dwelt among us".
That pretty much says it all.
The various perceptions are understandable. It is a characteristic called "divine investiture." It's really a cool relationship to master among us in mortality. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are separate. However, they have the same and common purpose - the immortality and eternal life of man. That's how Jesus was justified in so often referring Himself as the Father. He prayed to the Eternal Father in heaven and not to Himself. Jesus Christ is the literal offspring in the flesh of God the Father. He was foreordained and sent here to bring light into the world through the power and authority of the Father and to be a willing sacrifice for the children of man. They both are embodied in perfected flesh and bone. The Holy Ghost is a literal member of the godhead but not yet clothed in flesh and bone. His purpose is to bear witness to all of us of truth and knowledge - in essence to enter us and influence our judgement in right and wrong. God would not confuse the integrity and state of man by referencing Himself as three personalities in one. It is as simple as our own families here on earth. The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. Separate in being yet bonded in purpose - to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.
well, I didn't read the entire OP, but didn't the doctrine of the trinty come from the Council of Nicaea when the leaders decided what the Christian doctrine was?
Varying "perspective" is not the issue when it comes to "the father, the son, and the holy ghost." That this phrase was ADDED to scripture in various places of the bible, makes the issue of the trinity more than a matter of perspective... it makes it an OUTRIGHT act of DECEPTION.
I know it is very difficult to accept that one has been fooled... but Christians really need to stop defending this lie and start asking themselves WHY they were lied to about this in the first place, and take the time to see how this LIE has shaped their religion... and how it has indeed led them astray, both from the true teachings of Jesus and away from the righteousness of God.
Why indeed would the Roman Catholic Church create this lie? What atrocities did that establishment unleash on humanity, using it to justify themselves? Why did so many people break free from Catholicism in the first place? And yet, after they broke free, they CONTINUED with the indoctrination of this lie.
Jesus said that when you first hear the truth, you WILL be troubled, but then you will marvel... it is time that people confront the lie, no matter how troubling it is, so you can move on to healing from it and experience the MARVEL of the truth of the REAL gospel that Jesus preached, that the lie has blinded you from.
The world condemned the thought of the world being round. It was heresy. It was of the devil. It was a lie! Marvel not in your own wisdom for it is only a perception of truth given current conditions. Many may say the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are but a hoax but the application of the principles and precepts of the gospel bear witness of their reality. Unless you've lived the precepts and developed your own testimony of those truths borne to you then you've no legitimate right to say it's a lie for everyone else. Privilege - yes, but right - no... To do so is prideful which characteristic will always shield the mind from expanding and learning and puts up the walls which are only mirrored for you to see and marvel yourself in.
Let's not start condemning others and principles of their doctrine just because we don't like it. That road only magnifies how incapable one may be in open dialogue about an issue which they find distasteful to the core because of the lack of application.
The idea of trinity is a state of mind to do with reasoning possibly - the three dimensions that make every physical thing. It is a literary device first.
i am a christian, but i do not believe the trinity is a biblical teaching. Unfortunately so many religions base their core beliefs on a trinity
Hey ! hey !
Do you know why the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost took the last train for the coast ?
Because the levy was dry !
Christians do not have the trrinity... that is Catholic creation.
There are very large gulfs between Christians in general, and Catholics.
Uh, excuse me, but Catholics are followers of Christ, which makes them Christians too.
The word trinity is nowhere in the Bible. I believe it was originally embraced at the Council of Nicea in the 3rd century (?). I think....connected to the Catholic church somehow.
That was also when the method of baptism was changed to "in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Ghost" instead of what the disciples taught & performed which was baptism "in Jesus name".
I'm not a Bible scholar, but I believe this is correct.
I do not agree with labels. That being said. Could you read, and research 1 Timothy 3:16 and let us know your findings?
Well, in plain language, I understand it to mean that God came to earth in the form of a man (Jesus)& was justified by his resurrection (arose from the dead) and taken back into Heaven.
I'm not going to pretend I'm an expert. I could read what the Ryrie study Bible says about it, I have one here....actually, it's pretty much the same, but the guy who wrote it is a staunch Trinitarian, therefore leaning that way. Also appears anti-pentecost so I won't hold onto his interpretation. Regardless, that's how it reads to me, for what my opinion is worth.
No way. It can't be anti-Pentecost. I was raised a baptist, but when I grew up, joined a pentecostal church. At least, there, I got pointed in the right direction on the HOW TO have that relation with God that teaches trust and how to lean on faith and oh so much more.
But praise be, you do get the meaning of the verse.
The worth of your opinion, is worth as much as anyone else's here.
Sorry about the grammar. (ha ha)
I looked at 1 Timothy 3:16 in the greek and it does not say that god manifested in the flesh. (eusebeias is the word mistranslated as godliness of god... it is actually a word that means "religion") Here, Paul is giving Timothy instructions that he is to pass on to other ministers. The verse starts off with Paul telling Timothy that they are to speak together in agreement loudly, in reverence to God, about the "mystery" that was revealed in the flesh and proved in the spirit, as seen by messengers to proclaim in doctrine to the world. The "mystery" is the epiphany of Jesus that proved that the soul/spirit lives on after death... a concept that Jesus preached in the flesh, and revealed in the spirit... it is a mystery because the Jews did not at that time believe in immortality of soul/spirit. kai (and) omologoumenōs (speak together in unison/agreement) mega (greatly/loudly) estin (to be) to tēs (that which) eusebeias (religion/reverence to God) mustērion (a mystery) os (that) ephanerōthē (revealed/made known) en (in) sarki (flesh) edikaiōthē (deemed right) en (in) pneumati (spirit) ōphthē (seen by) aggelos (messengers) ekēruchthē (to proclaim) en (in) ethnesin (nations) episteuthē (entrusted) en (into) kosmō (the world) anelēmphthē (to take/deliver) en (in) doxē (doctrine).
Furthermore, by "spirit" Paul was not intending the Holy Spirit. Whenever Paul spoke of the "holy spirit" he wrote it as "theos pneuma" not simply as pneumati.
I thought about this a moment and decided to add. I haven't read the other posts here, just spontaneously responding.
The word 'trinity' is simply a word chosen by 'whoever it was, council, Catholics, etc.' to describe the manifestations of God. Describing how He is present in 3 forms, yet he is still "One". Three in One. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost.
Water. It has 3 forms, yet still water in substance. They are...
Steam, as in boiling water makes a steam vapor.
Ice, as in frozen water makes ice.
Water, original H20, water.
Compare to the Trinity.
Very nicely put. I am so glad to see that common sense still abounds, and the vapor hasn't gotten to all.
I can agree with the water illustration. It can be applied to "light" too.
But the major flaw in the trinity concept is the deifying of God's holy power...Holy Spirit.
I agree that God is not three separate persons. I do believe He is the Holy Spirit and here's some of the many scriptures I could share here: John 4:24 "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." We know God made man, right? Job 33:4 states, "The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life." Now, if the Spirit of God were a 'person', Jesus would then be the Son of the Holy Spirit all throughout the gospels. Mat 1:18 "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit."
The Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ are the same as shown in Rom 8:9 "However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him." And look at what Peter said in Acts 5:3-4 "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land?...You have not lied to men but to God."
Bottom line is, God manifested Himself in the Old Testament as Spirit. He manifested Himself in the New Testament as flesh and Spirit (for He wasn't limited to just the flesh body of Christ, who was 'made a little lower than elohim'" (Ps 8:5; Heb 2:7). Jesus said He would not leave the disciples (and us today) as 'orphans', which means Fatherless, and He told them, "I will come to you". (John 14:18). Jesus even said He was the Father in John 14:8-9; so did Isaiah in 9:6.
No one can say Jesus is YHVH/YHWH (kurios in Greek), except by the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:3). Enough for now ~ may the LORD bring the increase. Amen.
JD, you've presented the same scripture augmenting rhetoric as SpiderPam. Both of you have merely used the English words to play off of. Here's a task for you-all which I doubt the Trinitarian clique will do, how about inserting Power in place of Spirit when the verse is speaking about the Holy Spirit?
This is what you'll get: the Power of God; born by the Holy Power of God; baptized in the name of the Father, in name of the Son, and in the name of the Holy Power; the Power of God moved over the face of the deep; etc. etc. etc.
Nice to see you-all stick to your guns. It's shame ya'll are just recycling a false belief orchestrated by ancient power-hungry Catholic bishops.
Here's another task: how about before believing in something, do some research on what the opposition believes? Get both sides of the story, weigh the facts, consider the solid logic, then pray about it, asking God to reveal the truth. A time will come when many will have to face the truth that their religious beliefs were frauds. And that time isn't first the Millennium reign.
It'll be when those who believe in a Rapture (secret or not) will see themselves in a Great Tribulation, because, frankly, the Rapture too is a deception.
You're missing the boat...
Understand that God came to us in the image of Jesus Christ, His Son. The Spirit of God is also the POWER of God. The Bible tells us that Jesus sits at the "right hand" of the Father, indicating there are two persons; however, there is only one God.
What does “right hand” mean? Because God is Spirit, He does not have a visible body. In fact, the Bible tells us He is invisible (Col 1:15). So, how can God have a literal “right hand”? This is representative of His power!
Let’s look at Exodus 15:6 “Your right hand, O LORD [Yehovah], is majestic in power, Your right hand, O LORD, shatters the enemy.”
Psalm 89:13 “You have a strong arm; Your hand is mighty, Your right hand is exalted.”
Hebrews 1:3 “And He [Jesus Christ] is the radiance of His [God’s] glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.”
Hebrews 1:8 “But of the Son He [God] says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.'”
Look at the alignment, the mocking of Jesus in Mat 27:29: “They wove thorn branches into a crown and put it on his head, and they placed a reed stick in his right hand as a scepter. Then they knelt before him in mockery and taunted, ‘Hail! King of the Jews!’”
I've already shown you that the Spirit of God and Spirit of Christ are the same Spirit. Jesus told His disciples in Acts 1:18, "you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you." Look at 1 Cor 1:24, "Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God." The Holy Spirit is called 'wisdom', also. God is Almighty, and His Spirit in us gives us His wisdom and power.
No lady you've missed the boat.
Since you're so sure of your claims answer these Q's.
According to the BIBLE:
What is the definition of God (capital G)?
What is the definition of "Spirit" (of God)?
If Jesus sits at right hand of God & the H.S. is a person, where does it sit?
If the H.S. is a Divine Person what verse does it personally claim "to be God"
Can you list ONE verse where the H.S. personally speaks?
Answer only through specific Bible verses, anything else will be viewed as your admission that you can't Biblical prove these logical, valid questions. Thank you. I'll be checking back. If no response, I'll post them on one of your hubs.
The Holy Spirit is God, not a separate 'person' of God. You seem to think that I believe the Father sits on a throne, with Jesus at His literal 'right hand' side, and the Holy Spirit as a 'person' sitting on His left. I ask this same, sensible question in my hub, "Let Me Tell You Who God Is" to challenge 'trinitarian' thinking. I just explained to you what 'right hand' means, symbolically. It is the power of God. But, you missed it ~ that's why I said, 'You're missing the boat' (understanding).
I've already given a verse that states the Holy Spirit made man (Job 33:4). God is "Elohim", but if capitalized indicates LORD (YHVH) God. The definition of elohim includes angels, magistrates and saved mankind (Ps 8:5/Heb 2:9 and Ps 82:6/John 10:34). When the Bible translated John 1:1 as "the Word was 'with' God", it should read "the Word was 'to' [pros] God (elohim/theos)". The Word was God (YHVH Elohim). The Greek word for 'with' as in beside or next to is 'par', not 'pros'.
Does your word, in an of itself, have a separate body? Does it take wind or 'spirit' to produce? Man in made in that image of God. Jesus was the Word and was God, Who spoke everything into being that was made (John 1:3). The Spirit of God even made man (Job 33:4). How? That is a mystery. We know man was made from the dust of the earth (Gen 2:7). And Eve was made from the rib of Adam's side (Gen 2:22).
The word for Spirit in Hebrew is 'ruach' and in Greek it is 'pneuma' ~ breath, wind, spirit. This is what God is.
Does the Holy Spirit speak? Of course, He is God. He is the Spirit of God and Spirit of Christ (Rom 8:9), for God is spirit (John 4:24). Jesus said in John 16:13, "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come." Compare this to John 12:49 when Jesus said, "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak."
Judah, Judah, Judah...
I got your "right hand" example. But you didn't fully understand me. Why can't the right hand analogy be dual: symbolic and literal? What's so hard to believe Jesus literally has a throne to sit on on the Father's right side? Why does the Bible and Jesus claim he is a "KING", he has a "KINGDOM", he has a "SCEPTER", and he has a "THRONE" with the Father if He doesn't sit down on it?
As far as the Holy Spirit I'm only disagreeing it is not a living, thinking, speaking being. It is simply the awesome, mind-blowing power of God.
Did anyone read what Sanctus wrote at the bottom? About blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? It's another prime indicator that the Holy Spirit isn't a Divine Being of conscious thoughts.
jd- you have a handbasket i can borrow??
ShadowKing, by golly I think you are almost there. Good luck on your journey. Be careful, for glowing light bulbs, when they go off, they are bright.
Friends I hope.
You've misinterpreted what I meant. I'm not agree to the Trinity concept, I agreed that water has a 3-part function just as light & fire. Trinity concept is still bogus.
Ha,ha,ha Maybe for you it is. Sorry can't do it.
Been good debating you. You are a challenge and it has been real. I do however feel neither of us won or lost the debate. I think it might be because we are stubborn or something.
Shall we meet again
Likewise. The proper way to try and settle a dispute is to handle it in a formal manner. Such as an intellectual debate where both side present their facts and evidence against the other.
I offered this solution to hubber SirDent who doesn't believe my hub about Enoch dying on earth, not ascending into heaven. He has yet to respond. I don't look at it as a mean strut my ego or boast on my knowledge, I believe debates should be handled in a respectful, formal manner. I only comment in the forums because no one would probably accept my offer to formally debate an issue based on the proper rules of formal debating.
So yes, will cross paths again.
and here I thought the non-believers had decided to stick to their own corner.
Well, it was great knowing you forum folks!
Theres no question about it really. Jesus never claimed to be GOd Almighty. Scour the scriptures and find he always refers to himself as the son of God, He prayed to God, not to himself.
He was born to a jewish family who believed One God. The scriptures should be full of Jesus explaing the trinity if was true, because the jews had no idea of it. Only pagans going right back to Ancient Babylon. Hundreds of years AFTER the death and resurrection of Christ , The meeting at Nicea decided on the Trinity doctrine. It´s adopted into so- called christianity , the same way as xmas and many other pagan festivals.
There goes that label thing again. Xmas is today a mere commercial event. Easter, come on there is no pink bunny that hides eggs. And etc. The birth of Christ should be celebrated each and every day as should Easter.
Pagan sounds like a mean word. From what I have seen from the majority of christians, I'm happy to just be called believer.
The trinity was shown in the bible at Jesus' baptism, there was Jesus the son of God, A voice from heaven who says, " This is my son with whom I am well pleased." then a dove came down which was symbolic of the Holy spirit. To Show the Holy Trinity.
If you had never heard of the trinity doctrine, or read the false text added to the bible about the father, son and holy ghost being one, you would not have come to that conclusion. That God exists, that Jesus walked the earth, and that that the breath of God flows through all things, does not mean that there is a divine "trinity" which justifies the worship of Jesus as God.
We do not worship Jesus as God, Jesus is the savior one who was sent by God to shed his blood on the cross for all mankind. And Jesus said that you can not come to the father but through him.
A "My way or the highway" god?
Even mere mortals can manage better than that!
whatever you want to believe. It's up to you. I don't care.
You know your avatar looks alot like Lee Greenwood. Funny.
earnstshub you are trying to be funny, I think. But you do have a point. When all is said and done, if you THINK about it, it is His way or the highway.
This is partly why I do not labels such as christian, and so forth. The care just aint there.
OOOps my bad, I apologize, I didnt read anyone stating they are christian.
You pray in his name, you believe that it is only through him that you are saved, you have idols of him at the center of your churches, 99% of your scripture study involve Jesus and how he died for you... some of you even believe that Jesus is the one who created the universe. Being a Christian by definition, means accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior, and as the manifestation of God in the flesh. Christians most certainly DO worship Jesus, if not AS God, you worship him ABOVE God.
you are misinformed, and you are talking about different denominations not all are the same. Not all pray in his name, Not all have idols in the church, not all believe he created the universe, Sorry you are clumping them all together as the same when they are not. If you are not Christian, why do you think you know so much about them.
I said "some" believe he created the universe.
The only denomination I know of that doesn't believe that Jesus is God incarnate and doesn't have Jesus idols in their churches, is the Jehovah's Witnesses, but they do pray in his name anyway.
And I'd like to know of one Christian Denomination that doesn't believe that Jesus is the one and only redeemer.
To add to Deaconess' Christian defining:
It also means "one of Christ's" or for better clarity a "follower of Christ".
To be a literal Christ one must "FOLLOW" the righteous actions of Christ, one must ACT like Christ in their worship and deeds. He obeyed ALL 10 Commandments and never SAID any of them are abolished or will be nullified. Many who call themselves "Christian" keep only 6-7 of them.
"Do not take the LORD's name in vain" means don't attach His name to nearly everything that comes out your mouth. I've seen in my life many always saying "G*d did this, G*d did that..."
And how many Christians do any of you think "Remember the Sabbath day and KEEP IT HOLY" means going to church on Sunday the first day of the week? No scripture validates the change of the 7th day Sabbath to the 1st day Sunday. Those who believe the Bible does have are stretching the scriptures, forcing it to say that by implying Jesus rose on Sunday so that's the new Sabbath. I tell you, that is mere speculation.
The evidence of idle practices and believes are stack against those believing in the traditional (flawed) dogma of Christianity.
A time will come when their eyes will be opened as the witness themselves victims of nuclear World War III. And all because they believed the Rapture was real.
Your beliefs are your beliefs, as are your conspiracy theories and prophecies. Others have their beliefs, conspiracy theories and prophecies. All based on faith.
You sound unintelligent nearly each time you post. Please keep your mouth shut.
EVERYTHING happens in threes. And I haven't paid much attention to Beetlejuice.
You censor others when they disagree with you? You're right and everyone else can just shut up? Oh, dear me.
The 10 Commandments are the only ones Jesus quoted in the gospels, for they are the Law of God; amen. When it comes to the 7th Day Sabbath, keep in mind there were no 'Christians' at the time of Jesus' death and resurrection (Acts 11:25). Jesus kept the Law in every way until He died and rose again. He was born a Jew and "was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel" (Mat 15:24). The message of grace to the Jew first, and then to the Gentile included Paul's message to all in Rom 14:5: "One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." The traditional 7th Day Sabbath is observed from sundown Friday to Sundown Saturday. Jesus rose on Sunday morning. If you are persuaded to keep the Sabbath holy [set apart, sanctified] on Saturday, then do so; those who keep it on Sunday are not condemned, any more than those who keep it on Mon through Friday, for the Law is of the heart, not the letter (2 Cor 3:6; Rom 7:6).
Again, you've used rhetoric designed to deflect away from the central theme. Using Rom. 14:5 proves nothing against the Sabbath Day--the 7th Day of the Week wasn't changed by the words of the Father or the Son. Those who defend any other day will use any scripture to justify them. Yet a fact remains the same: Nowhere in the Bible does God SPEAK of the Sabbath being changed to any time on Sunday.
But in order for you to justify your belief you MUST bend any scripture to that preconceived idea. I couldn't care less what day you-all worship on as the Sabbath. My grievance is one of misinterpretation when someone uses unrelated or ambiguous verses to support a notion.
JD you are correct. Some people observe the Sabbath on Saturday, and some on Sunday. There is not a problem with that. The point God made in keeping a Sabbath was like saying to us, ok folks, do your work thru the week, but dont for get to set a day aside to honor me and to rest, and to reap the benefits of the work you did thru the week.
Well, He was more serious in His Word than I am with my explanation.
SK, Whew, I should just shut up, BUT (haha) I don't make it much of habit quoting scripture for a few different reasons. One being, that As God is All to all,
same goes with the Scripture.
I do not make others opinions as mine, I read, listen, watch, learn etc and form my own opinion.
Somewhere in this forum, someone asked if I had never been told about the Trinity would I still believe in it. My answer would have to be yes.
As a believer, I do not feel comfortable arguing over any part of "believing"
and here is why. It could possibly turn someone away.
Discussing and debating issues in a civil calm manner is fine. And encouraging and beneficial.
Here is something, for years I called myself Christian. .......I am an only child, my parents have both passed on,(henceforth leaving me as an orphan) I am raising an only child by myself, (married for 23 years, the daddy THOUGHT he would be mean to his son) ............2 years ago, I had something hit me that has left me not as able to work as I would like to, (learning TONS about budgeting)............I am no mechanic...........Long story short I live 1 block away from 3 of the major denominational churches, in order for 80 percent of the members to reach the church on the Sun am, Sun pm and Wed pm services, they pass directly in front of my house. I was mowing the lawn, mower quit. ................grass grew. at least 3 ft tall. How many christian service going members stopped (because they noticed the mower at the end of the drive and thought maybe something was wrong that maybe they could help with.) If you guessed 1, you were wrong. No not one. Oh,, maybe they didnt feel safe....ok, I live 1 house from the police department. next excuse please...
I told this to say this, more christians than not, do not walk the talk they preach. To me, and I am NOT name calling, that is hypocrisy.
I do not have a lot of what makes the world turn, but I do help people that I CAN help. Even, people I do not know.
No, i aint bragging.
But christian to me, is to be Christ like. And that my friend will take you down some mighty dusty roads.
The question at the beginning of this forum, where do christians get the Trinity. ,,,There are several opinions from which to ponder. Some I agree with, some I think are way off key, and some just plain hurtful. No need for that. But that is what makes us all special, different and unique.
One thing that is the same however is that He loves us all.
Good luck to each of you in your endeavor in finding the truth.
Deaconess. Who are you referring to in your earlier comment as you have idols of Christ in the center of your churches.....?
As a believer, I do thank God for the blessings, and so forth, and I do direct my prayers to God, but it is through Jesus that I pray.
We believers, do not however, put Jesus ABOVE God.
It is my opinion, that anybody that walks outside and can't see God, they need their eyes checked. I do not say this as being mean, but worried.
God IS everything to everyone.
I guess, there are those that believe in the big bang.
Oh wait,,,,,,, I do. Really I do.
The big bang, it happened. It really did.
When God set into motion, creation, there had to be a heck of a bang.
I'm talking the biggest thunder and lightening storm you could imagine.
oh wait, I'm back.
So, if according to trinitarian believers God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit are all equal, then why is it that it's blaspheming against the Holy Spirit that's the biggest sin, the unpardonable sin.
Let's see, you can slander/libel/blaspheme the Father, and Son side of this holy trinity, but blaspheme/libel/slander the Spirit side of the Trinity, and you're well...screwed. So, so much for equality right there.
But, why is it that? As a family relation thing it makes no sense, because first of all, we don't know what family relation the Holy Spirit has with God the Father, and God the Son. Is (s)he God the Mother? God the Uncle? God the Brother? God the Second cousin twice removed? God the Mother in Law?
The Bible doesn't say.
Sometimes I think that maybe just maybe the Church would be stronger if the mainline Christians would stop placing the trinity concept as a stumbling block in front of salvation. That makes me wonder, which is more important, believing in the trinity, or believing in the salvation of Christ?
I have read comments, and appears that everyone is missing the One. The Son of God and the Holy Spirit of God is part of God, the One functioning as One. To say us Christians believe in a three head God is false. The Son of God came into the world possessing God's Holy Spirit for us. The Father is in the Son, and the Son is in the Father with His Spirit. This is ONE. Son and Holy Spirit is for us to identify with.
God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, all in one and one in all the Triune God. The Holy Trinity
It's my belief that this is like airing dirty laundry,Jesus himself always deferred to the father,Jesus is a messenger as well as an example of how we should live our life,the holy spirit is a keeper and a comforter to us who believe.This is a solace for the believer not three separate God's the son and the Holy spirit support our belief and God as manifestations of his acts and attributes.Some will say this takes away from Jesus I believe it does just the opposite ii secures his place in God's plan to deliver man from sin by encouraging us that we can do like wise if we submit to the father.
By submitting to the father we become christlike the respect we pay to Jesus is well place because without his sacrfice there would be no freedom from sin and no example on how to accomplish that.We reference the Holy Spirit because it allows us to commune with God.
The scriptures are not broken. There is no new thing under the sun. Trinity is new, catholic and council of Nicene 325ad came up with trinity.
Israel prayed to one god, yahweh. They were not wrong. Jesus came and prayed to the father. He was not wrong. Therefore we can all pray to God, the father, Yahweh and not be wrong. Jesus was worshipped twice and those people were not wrong, although worship and prayer are different, worship still announces, clearly, deity.
Beyond that I am still in session.
I thank jesus for what he did. Jesus is the firstfruits unto god and our brother. The similarities of the Holy Spirit and God are so close, i consider the holy spirit to be another name for Yahweh. Occasionally i commend the holy spirit for politeness sake.
I think often if we have to contemplate a thing too heavily and it becomes complicated unto us, then we have missed the simplicity that is in christ jesus.
I do not believe that belief in trinity will stop or add to a persons salvation nor will it deny favor on that day of judgment.
by thirdmillenium7 years ago
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by Irfan6 years ago
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