This challenge is specifically meant to those who deny, mock, resist, live to defame or otherwise pretend to know THE LIVING G'D:
I have been called to be a watchman on the wall, according to Ezekiel 33, a repairer of the breach, according to Isaiah 58, and to warn those who raise their voice against THE MOST HIGH G'D, according to Isaiah 57. The words that have been posted on Forums meant to do all the things stated in the first phrase, have been brought before G'D in prayer, and HE Has Heard. The insults, deprecating remarks directed at G'D shall not go unchallenged. This battle is THE L'RD's.
To Those who will listen:
Bow down before The Powerful Creator, laying down your transgressions before HIM. Repent of your evil doings, your slanderings, your slights. Ask forgiveness of HIM, in THE NAME of JESUS of Nazareth. HE Shall be Faithful to forgive you. In this way, you shall be redeemed of all your foul, aggressive and slanderous applications against HIM. For you have sinned against G'D and man. The time to repent has come.
To Those who will not listen:
In Mercy G'D Extends HIS Light and Truth to you. You are free to choose this day whom you shall serve. Set aside your idols of wood, hay, stubble and grass. Set aside your lofty imaginations, your precepts and philosophies, the gods you proclaim are no gods, but who rule you with an iron fist. Lay them down. Bow before THE ALMIGHTY G'D! Repent and be healed. For the time has come to sound the alarm. Charges have been laid against you, by the very gods you have so diligently served. Renounce them. Repent and live. G'D Can be your Advocate or your Judge. You shall be condemned or redeemd by the words of your own mouth (or pen). Choose now. In order to do so, you will have to hold your thoughts captive. Bring them into submission. G'D HAS BEEN Petitioned to make Himself Known to you. Resist HIM and you will seal your eternity. Accept HIM and you shall enter in HIS REST, through JESUS, The Christ. Amen.
This is not a threat. This is in response to those who have stated over and over, in various forms: if G'D EXISTS "HE SHOULD PROVE it".
To those who call themselves followers of JESUS:
Whatever words may be posted here, be aware, that you are, in no wise to misrepresent THE SOVEREIGN G'D. If you do, that will be on your head.
G'D IS MERCIFUL. Be HIS Hands and Feet. Speak truth. Be loving. Do not react in resentment, bitterness, anger or any emotional outbursts that have the power to bring you down to a place outside G'D'S Good Grace. This battle is the L'RD's.
Put on the Mantle of HIS Grace, the Armour of G'D, or whatever garment of representation HE Imparts to you, but do not respond if you are not prepared to do so with gentleness, compassion, goodness and truth. SEEK HIS Face and Will before you post anything, for HIS NAME'S SAKE, for HIS GLORY, HONOUR and EXALTATION.
Above all, if you are motivated, pray. This is the greater application, in obedience to His Will, His Word, His Holy Spirit, through YESHUA HAMASCIACH! Amen.
It's a good thing that the words you posted here are not meant or implied in any way that you "pretend to know THE LIVING G'D"
Hello Troubled Man....
I thank you for your speedy response, but I would like to say, please don't consider this a joke... what was posted is serious. Have you read it through entirely. A lot is being asked of you. Are you prepared to do what is being asked?
I don't say this because I think you don't understand. I just want you to be clear and serious about the challenge. Remember, I am not the one challenging you. If you say you're 'in', you will be accepting G'D's challenge.
Are you certain you want to accept? Are you clear on what you are accepting? Again, don't take this the wrong way. I am not belittling you or denigrating your intelligence. I know you are a grown man with the ability to think for yourself. I just want to be sure you are sure.
Thanks and G'D BLESS you, Sir, in JESUS' NAME. Amen.
Of course, I accept. I'll kick his butt, if he has one. He is weak, feeble, cowardly and egotistic... should be a cake walk.
It's been 7 hours since his last post. I wonder...
Still waiting for the challenge to start, so far, not a peep.
Maybe G'D's just doing a little stretching...
Hi Troubled Man!
So glad to hear from you.
I'm just wondering: did you read the Scripture verses I posted? Or are you just waiting to see if G'D Is going to do all the work?
I'm on the sidelines watching. So are a great many others, despite the lack of interaction here. G'D IS PATIENT, but HE Won't be forever...
The challenge started the moment you responded. The ball is now in your court.
MERCY and BLESSINGS to you in the meanwhile, in THE POWERFUL NAME of JESUS, my ADVOCATE, my WISDOM, my STRENGTH. Amen.
What about them?
If G'D did anything at all, I'd be shocked. So far, He has done nothing. I await, tingling.
And, what exactly am I supposed to do? I've accepted your challenge and am waiting for it.
Please don't do that. Thanks.
Troubled Man, what exactly am I doing?
You say: If G'D did anything at all, I'd be shocked. So far, He has done nothing. I await, tingling.
That's right. You would be shocked. You will be shocked. When HE DOES you'll know it. I just pray you share with us all.
And, what exactly am I supposed to do? I've accepted your challenge and am waiting for it.
I suggested you read the Scripture verses I posted. You don't have to do so, of course. You can just wait, if you like. I am confident in G'D. I'm confident HE WILL Meet you where you are.
In the meantime, G'D BLESS you... with whatever you will need to meet HIS Challenge, through YESHUA HAMASCIACH, LION of Judah, PRINCE of PEACE. Amen.
Troubled Man... read the book of Job. And be sure to read it to the end. There you will see your answer.
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 2:9
That would be the story that shows God to be a very petty, selfish and vindictive jerk, mildly speaking. Yes, I read it. Thanks.
or rather, Job is the petty, selfish jerk who demands to challenge God face to face. Then God shows up and gives him the opportunity and Job immediately realizes he is no better than the dirt under God's feet.
However, the 'petty, selfish and vindictive jerk' (aka, God) acknowledges that Job was righteous and didn't deserve the calamities that God allowed to happen to him. So God restores his wealth and provides him with a new family... and leaves him even better off than he began.
As I said... you needed to read the whole book.
I have to disagree with the description of Job.
well, I was merely putting it into perspective for TM who seemed to have the roles reversed in the story.
We, as humans who are part of the creation of the Lord have no business putting ourselves on His level. Job forgot that for a little while, until the Lord called his bluff.
Are you sure about that? Wasn't it Satan who challenged God? Wasn't Job a righteous man?
In other words, you are admitting you were wrong about the book of Job and really haven't read the Bible yourself, but will proselytize those inaccuracies despite others correcting you.
ATM, if your arrow was aimed at me, rest assured I've read nearly all the bible within the past 8 months. I'll have Psalms finished by this weekend, leaving only Proverbs and 1 and 2 Chronicles. Am I an expert on the book? No. But it really doesn't take much more than a 6th grade education to understand Job. Whereas I think it would take either a doctorate in psychology or a large quantity of peyote to understand your logic.
But here's the rundown on Job...
Satan challenges God in Chapter 2 (out of 42 chapters). By the end of that chapter, Job loses his wealth, his family, his house and his health.
The book centers on Job's reaction for the next 29 chapters. As DoubleScorpion mentioned, Job's friends show up and attack his faith in God and insist that Job was not as righteous as he thinks. Job never waivers in that regard, but he does do a bit of whining and insists over and over that he was always righteous and didn't deserve what he got.
However, in Chapter 13 he insists on an opportunity to 'reason with God' directly. In essence, demanding face time.
Then, a young man who was listening to Job interrupted in Chapter 32 and says that it is not our place to question what God does.
Finally, the Lord jumps in at Chapter 38 and really lays into Job, asking him where he was when the Lord laid the foundations of the earth, clouds and formed the seas, etc. The Lord really gets into Job's face for several chapters and points out specific things that He has done that totally puts Job in his place.
In the final chapter, the Lord turns on Job's lousy friends and says Job isn't nearly as bad as they are. So the Lord turns around and gives back twice as much to Job as he had taken from him. (Job 42:10)
So yeah.. I think I explained it pretty well the first time. And I think we all see that you fit right in with Job's 'friends'.
You spent 8 months very well!
.....and with friends like Trouble (and even his 'name' is spiritually motivated) who needs enemies?
Makes you wonder doesn't it? Did God raise his wife and children back from the dead and then make those who took his riches give them back or does it mean that he remarried, had children all over again and worked his wealth back.
Glad to see you are still with us. I guess He has decided to defer on a preemptive strike for the time being. Leastwise for now...
I'm not sure which side of the ocean you have planted yourself upon. Would you be so kind as to enlighten me? Only if you're up to it. No pressure... just curious. I can't make you out.
BLESSINGS in THE NAME of my BELOVED L'RD JESUS... MASTER of The Universe, MAKER of All Creation, REDEEMER, FRIEND. Amen.
The clocks ticking, and soon we'll be using a calendar.
Truly... you shouldn't be so impatient. HE Will Respond. Use this time to prepare.
BLESSINGS to you, Troubled Man, through JESUS, HIS Son.
A Troubled Man: Why do you insist on attacking and degrading Almighty God, when you do not know Him? More importantly, why do you choose to deny His existance? What has God ever done to you to deserve your wrath and hatred? Why do you persist in challenging Almighty God's power by attacking those who believe in Him? Why do you continually attack and challenge the beliefs of those who love God and seek to serve Him? You have not even 1 Hub, you have zero, nada, zilch hubs and even less credibility, yet you persist in attacking others. You prove yourself to be a bully and nothing more, taking cheap shots at those who you will attacking their God, their beliefs, their faith, mocking them for what they have but you refuse.
If there were any way that I could get you banned from the "Forum" and from Hubpages, I would. You are nothing but a sliver in the tip of my finger and the fingers of all believers soon to be cast out and forgotten.
I know Him by his deeds which are petty, selfish and egotistical, at least, according to the Bible.
Because, he has not been shown to exist other than in the imaginations of His followers. Show me your God and I will gladly believe he exists.
He murdered millions of innocent people, at least, according to the Bible.
Those who believe evangelize the religion, hence whatever they do affects my life in negative ways.
Hubs don't provide credibility and neither do beliefs in invisible friends.
Yes Dave, I know you would love to see me gone forever. Of course, I take the high road and would never wish that upon you.
Notice that I tend to be closer to the teachings of Jesus than you?
My Jesus wouldn't mock his brother. Please remove the stone in your eye before you try to remove the pebble in your brothers. Think about this if you will. You never explained why you feel the way you do? G'D didn't murder anyone. He can't. Evil destroys. It comes like a thief in the night. The feelings of whatever it is that makes you express annoyance, anger, sometimes hate and mostly disrespect. We who believe in the ONE and only Creator of every living thing still acknowledge you and read your work. We give you time to see that good feelings can be yours if you can take a little step forward. If I am wrong, and your way is right. Then I have nothing to lose, I won't know. I will be dead. BUT !! IF your wrong, and I am right then you will live forever and ever in suffering. Why would anyone want to be miserable, is beyond my human thinking. Shalom
We are all atheists, but some of us have taken it one God further.
Please think about that before you try and use hell as a premise of an argument.
If you're wrong, you have wasted your life believing in false gods.
Here's the deal. There are many religions in the world and they can't all be right. One could be right but that's a stretch. If the right one is not the one you believe, then both of us will be suffering together forever. Why would you want to be miserable?
You have your work cut out for you here. And you do know that you are doomed to fail, right?
No work? I don't need to display too much effort to show the blatant ignorance is what it is? A choice action.
Fail? How can I fail to prove that. Every post that would lead afterward would prove that this particular individual willfully and blatantly chooses ignorance. I mean, if you want to get technical? The OP has already proven it.
I ask as many did before ...
What is the challenge?
Oh good god, here we go again. Seriously, I would love to comment on this but I have false idols of grass and hay that I have to pray to right now. You know, being that I'm one of the heathens and all. (eye roll)
You talk about watchtowers, and laying down transgressions, and aggressive and slanderous applications. Why? Who talks like that? Do you actually talk like that? I doubt you do. I suspect this language stems from the historical period that your Bible was translated in, and you've consciously or subconsciously emulated it. This way of speaking may have been meaningful in the 18th century, but it isn't meaningful to people on a web forum in 2011.
You say nothing of what it actually means to be a Christian in the 21st century. You say nothing of what Christianity even is. I have friends who are Christians. They talk about what being a Christian means in these times, how they struggle to reconcile Christian values with the pressures of modern life etc. What you've written just sounds like someone trying to sound wise and holy. Unfortunately it just comes across as bad impression of a Christian, a caricature. None of my Christian friends speak like this. They are not caricatures. They are real people and what they say is more meaningful because they say it in their own words.
So is the challenge actually for you? Is the holy spirit holding up a mirror, so you can learn from what you see in the reflection? Is your challenge to adapt the way you communicate your faith? To see that you don't need to try to sound authoritative, or wise, or holy. That any authority or wisdom or holiness will stem from you being authentic and describing your experience of being a Christian in a way that is meaningful for people in 2011. If so I wonder, is that a challenge you can accept?
Hey there Don W,
Hate to spoil your premise, but I actually do talk that way. It may be outdated, but I don't have to follow rules. I like speaking the way I speak. It is particular to me.
You say: (paraphrasing)
You have friends who are Christians in the 21st Century, and they don't talk sound like me. It's true. There is a struggle to reconcile Christian values to the pressures of this modern world. This Forum wasn't addressing that topic. However, I agree wholeheartedly. Being a Believer in CHRIST JESUS in the 21st Century presents all sorts of obstacles, struggles, confusion and difficulties.
You say, (sorry I'm just paraphrasing here) that what I write sounds like someone who wants to sound wise and holy... but it comes across as a caricature... phoney in other words. Well, I never said I was perfect. I never said I was wise. I wish I was holy. Unfortunately, my biggest problem is that I wear my heart out on my sleeve.
I'm glad your friends are more real to you. They should be. They're not discussing issues of importance over cyberspace. I'm even more glad you have a good rapport with them.
You ask: is the challenge actually for you? Is the holy spirit holding up a mirror, so you can learn from what you see in the reflection? Is your challenge to adapt the way you communicate your faith? To see that you don't need to try to sound authoritative, or wise, or holy. That any authority or wisdom or holiness will stem from you being authentic and describing your experience of being a Christian in a way that is meaningful for people in 2011. If so I wonder, is that a challenge you can accept?
I respond: Every day. THE HOLY SPIRIT is constantly purging me of my faults. It's too bad my style of writing seems so offensive to you. I am who I am. I won't change that unless G'D asks to me to do so. HE IS my GREATEST FRIEND and my most honest critic as well.
I look in the mirror all the time. I don't always like what I see... when I don't I drop to my knees and admit it. I'm frail. I'm very weak at times, especially when it comes to my family... always letting them get away with things most people consider harmless, wondering if I should impose my true beliefs about how they should live, act, and speak (not that I want to pass on my language style to them, but I hate hearing them use vulgarities, or slang when a proper word would have so much more significance.
Can I change the way I speak or write? I don't know. I think I might be too old. However, you are the first person to ever comment on my linguistic style. Perhaps it comes from having studied languages as a younger person. I believe words impact. I try to use the ones I consider most reflective of what I want to articulate. I always talk the way I write.
You should hear me sing...
G'D BLESS you, Don W... and MAY HE CONTINUE to BLESS your Christian friends. They should wonderful! In YESHUA HAMASCIACH! Amen.
That's okay. You can spoil my premise. I won't hold it against you. And I'm not offended by your language. I think you are passionate and eloquent in your writing. I'm not questioning your linguistic ability at all.
My point is that there is a line between being passionate and expressive on the one hand, and alienating your audience on the other. As this is a site of writers I thought it appropriate to raise that point. I think your intended audience for this thread was non Christians who you feel have attacked your beliefs. But is it possible that the way you have delivered your message is creating even more of a barrier, not less? Is that your intention?
You say you don't know if you could change that because you might be too old. What advice would you give someone who said "I can't change my ways and become a Christian because I'm too old?" Can you apply the same advice to yourself?
Some people do criticise you because you believe something they disagree with. And misrepresent what you believe to further justify their criticism. And then try to create rational explanations for doing so. I understand why that must be offensive and annoying. But not all criticism is a persecution. You said yourself god is your greatest friend but also your most honest critic. So you must know that sometimes criticism is worth considering. If you choose to disregard the opinion of a heathen such as myself, at least consider the opinions of your brethren on this thread who have offered their own advice. It may help in your efforts. Relating to your audience could be handy for those who would be fishers of men.
Hi Don W,
What I mean about 'being too old' actually reflects being set in my writer's ways. I spent some trying to figure out where my linguistic applications came from..
You said: "I suspect this language stems from the historical period that your Bible was translated in, and you've consciously or subconsciously emulated it."
No... this isn't it.
When I was a child, my parents had one very special possession in the house, two sets of Encyclopedias, The World Book Encyclopedia and Popular Science. Since my father was the only working parent, and we didn't have much, those books were like a gift from G'D Himself. During my spare time, I used to sit in front of the shelf holding both set of volumes and pick one out randomly, then read and read and read for hours. I had favorates of course, Egyptology for one. Archaeology was another. When I was six I told my sister I wanted to become an Archaeologist, she told me I couldn't... that my father would never let me travel. I believed her and began searching for something else I could do.
When I was older, I began reading authors like Taylor Caldwell, C. S. Lewis, Tolkien, and others of like standard. I wanted to write like they did... so badly. My sister, being twelve years older than me, was an avid reader. Though she never finished High School, I never met anyone who had read as many books as she did. Ann Rand, Caldwell, Fitzgerald, you name him/her, she read him/her. Thousands of books in her lifetime (literally). She was a book fiend... and held a high language standard, especially for me.
Her speech in Italian was always perfect. Despite having come to Canada when she was twelve, she maintained an extensive vocabulary, and a very distinguished accent. I never had that... in Italian, but I worked at building a vocabulary. The next book I tried reading with regularity was the dictionary.
Between those influences, yes, perhaps I'm stiffer than most, in my speech and writing. I will probably never be a C. S. or Tolkien. That is my dream and I will make a valiant attempt... whether I succeed or not remains to be seen.
As for my faith, you hit the truth on the nail when you said I'm passionate about it, probably more passionate about G'D and HIS HOLY WORD than any other thing on the face of this earth. Perhaps the archaic script of The King James Version Holy Bible that I first owned as a new Believer, years ago, also made an impression. But, I'm certain the expressive style of many excellent writers are ingrained in my heart. I aspire. I may never reach, but I hope to... maybe saying "I'm too old," was a cop-out.
I am not that old. However, some things are etched deeply in my soul. They yearn to be released. I can change. Seriously though, there's nothing in me that wants to... not now at least, not unless something compels me to do so.
You said: Some people do criticise you because you believe something they disagree with. And misrepresent what you believe to further justify their criticism. And then try to create rational explanations for doing so. I understand why that must be offensive and annoying.
Is this me, you're speaking about? Or others who are critisizing me?
Criticism is welcome, especially if it is creative. That's the only way to grow. I appreciated your comments. I thought about them... that proves they were valued.
You said: If you choose to disregard the opinion of a heathen such as myself, at least consider the opinions of your brethren on this thread who have offered their own advice. It may help in your efforts. Relating to your audience could be handy for those who would be fishers of men.
I don't consider you a heathen. I hope I haven't in any way made you feel as though I do. Every writer wants to relate to their audience. Hopefully, I haven't alienated everyone.
BLESSINGS to you, in THE NAME of THE AUTHOR and FINISHER of my faith, of my character (a work in progress),and of my heart, YESHUA HAMASCIACH! Amen.
"Words are powerful, the written word is profound"- Jo Goldsmith.
Shalom my sister.
I have a very important question for you about your belief. First I have to inform you about myself. I cannot believe in something without, or with evidence to the contrary.
Since I cannot force myself to believe in something (the christian god) because the only evidence we have of such a being (the bible) is so inconsistent and contradictory, do I deserve to be sent to hell?
Surely a god of such power would want people to use the brains he gave them?
Hi Jesus was a hippy,
You said: I cannot believe in something without, or with evidence to the contrary.
This is contradictory. Perhaps I'm unclear because I'm reading something into what you have just said; I don't want to do that, knowing that you might become upset with my reply. So I need you to clarify please.
Next I want to go back to what you first said: I have a very important question for you about your belief.
The question is about my belief... Therefore, I want to know, what is the point my telling you what I believe based on a Book you don't know enough about (and I state this based on your writing: (the bible) is so inconsistent and contradictory).
What could I expect from you if I respond?
You see, once you've studied The Bible, expounded, searched transliterations, not mere translations, based your studies on the culture of the day, the foundational precepts of faith the words were structured upon, and a multitude of other factors pertaining to Biblical Studies, you wouldn't call it 'inconsistent, or contradictory'.
If you're going to be angry at the truth I will share, then I will leave you to determine the answer without a response.
If, on the other hand, you want my input, I will make a valiant effort to reply to you.
You said: Surely a god of such power would want people to use the brains he gave them?
Due to past interaction with you, I know, as per your own admission that you don't believe in G'D, nor do you respect my belief in HIM. So I expect a reaction that is intended to goad me...
Honestly, I don't want to give you that opportunity. I think you're smart. I think you're testing me. I think you believe yourself smarter than me... and perhaps you are... G'D BLESS you if this is true. I'm happy for you since you're still so young and have so much ahead of you.
So, what I'm going to do here is reply casually to this question: Surely a god of such power would want people to use the brains he gave them?
You can take what you want from it. Prove me wrong by responding with the brilliance I believe you possess... not wit meant to belittle... and perhaps I will address the other portions of your commentary.
The answer is "yes, G'D WANTS you to use the brains HE Gave you. If you trust your brains alone though, without the benefit of HIS Help, you will be missing so much. What you end up with, in that case, is what you've chosen to end up with... a life/world/existence without G'D. If G'D is not in your life, HE WILL Not be in your afterlife either. This should make logical sense to you, outside of 'inconsistencies, contradictions, evidence and/or the lack thereof'.
I'm not trying to instigate you here. I just learn from my mistakes, that's all.
BLESSINGS to you, in THE NAME I count MAJESTIC, SOVEREIGN and TRUE, YESHUA HAMASCIACH! Amen.
Wow! Just beautiful! I truly with all my heart love your challenge! YESHUA HAMASCIACH? I hope you will please tell me where I may look up the second part of YESHUA name. I believe I have a calling too. I am living, breathing proof that there is a wonderful and forgiveing G'D. I praise him always. Wondering why the G'D instead of writing it completly out. Is it sinful to write the complete three letters? Anyway, I thank you for posting this. A hard day at work, and this really helped to get me back centered! Thanks you! Shalom
I appreciate your words of encouragement.
As for your questions. As you know YESHUA is HIS Hebrew Name. (The short form at least.) The word HaMasciach (which I tend to write all in capitals) means Messiah.
I write HIS Name this way, not because it is a sin to do otherwise, but during a Bachelor Degree Program in Messianic Bible Studies that I took several years ago, I became so inspired by HIS AWESOME NATURE, CHARACTER, WISDOM, POWER and GRACE, that I couldn't just write out HIS Title fully anymore. HE, Knowing All things, Knows my heart and the reason I do this. The act has become habitual, and I cannot seem to write HIS Name any other way without feeling as though I've disrespected HIM.
... No one else needs to feel the need to do as I do. I don't impinge my practice on anyone else... I guess you could liken my doing so to having a more intimate name to call a best friend or someone you hold in high esteem and with whom you have a special relationship.
BLESSINGS to you in THE NAME ABOVE ALL NAMES! YESHUA our SHEPHERD, our RIGHTEOUSNESS, our MENTOR and FRIEND! Amen... and Shalom!
Hi Penny of heaven,
You say: Done. So whats the next challenge?
This challenge is one that follows us all the days of our lives. The decision to follow G'D and not bow down to idols is one that imposes a curfew on the flesh.
You see,, as humans, we will constantly be tempted to bow down to idols. Idolatry is one of the intrinsic faults of human nature. We are always looking for something to latch onto, by virtue of our love for it, or our desire to possess it, or our need to be noticed by it, or feel bound to it...
That is why celebrity status is what it is in our society today. Those who seek to control the mind of men (especially in North America and Westernized Countries) provide the populace with a standard by which they wish they could live. This successfully causes the masses to be motivated toward working harder, having more, wanting more, not paying attention to the secular disturbances that are working to take our freedoms away from us.
Dearest Penny of heaven... you seem really young to me. I may be wrong, but if the greater part of your life is still ahead of you, then you have so very much to learn... as we all have...
Let this challenge be one that propels you to think about your future, whom it is you wish to worship/follow. and how to keep your focus true to that decision.
In reality, when you take The Challenge, that is not the end. The Challenge is the beginning of so much more.
BLESSINGS to you Beloved. MAY G'D MEET you where you stand spiritually. MAY HE BRING you to KNOW HIM, HELP you to choose HIM, and DRAW you into THE PROTECTIVE EMBRACE of HIS LOVE, GRACE and GOODNESS, through YESHUA HAMASCIACH, our MOST FAITHFUL FRIEND, our MOST PRECIOUS KING! Amen.
Is writing god a sin in the bible?
Or do you do it for personal reasons?
Hi Looking for Walden...
You ask: Is writing god a sin in the bible?
I answer, 'no'. Writing G'D's Name is not a sin. This is a habit I acquired while I was taking a Messianic Bible Bachelor's Degree. You see, I was already so very in love with the WONDROUS SAVIOUR Who Died for me, but when I began learning about HIM from a Judaic viewpoint, well the depth of my love grew and my awe for HIS PERFECTION, HIS PURITY, HIS WISDOM, COMPASSION for humanity and EXTENSIVE GRACE grew exponentially as well.
I began writing the titles G'D and L'RD this way as a result, out of reverence for HIM, not compulsory obligation.
G'D Does Not Impose HIMSELF on us. We are living in a Dispensation called 'Grace'. This means, all HIS Expressions toward us are expressions of Infinite Mercy, Goodness and yes, Grace.
This is not something that should be trampled on though; and those who choose to mock, defame or deny HIS Name, Existence and Sovereignty will be held accountable, That account will not be something that happens, as it sometimes did in The Old Testament, where entire families were judged as a result of the known, sometimes hidden, but always conscientiously applied sins of the heart, as known only to the ONE WHO EXAMINES the heart of men and Alone can draw out the significance and intention.
I always explain more than I need to... Sorry about that. I can't help myself... there is a part of me that rejoices with every opportunity to share a measure of HIS TRUTH, no matter how small...
But, the answer to your question, is this is a personal application. No one else ever needs to do the same.
BLESSINGS to you, IN THE BELOVED NAME of my SAVIOUR, YESHUA, THE Jewish Messiah (even if most of them do not desire to acknowledge the fact!). Amen.
Sorry, but that isn't a challenge, that is merely your faith based belief you are asking us to accept.
Considering the dishonesty you have shown us here, a condescending attitude does not help your case, either.
Whats the challenge? Hast thou setteth thine own self up as GOD's point person? Telleth me this oh great and powerful, art thou then a priest in the order of Melchisedek? If so, then what exactly does that mean?
I was wondering the same thing. Sometimes I wonder if the ones who insist on speaking for God realize they eviscerate their idea of one with these types of threads.
Hi Emile R,
You seem to be sincere to me. I appreciate your comments.
It's true, there may be a sense that speaking for G'D has the power to 'eviscerate the idea of one'. Not my idea of G'D though. i know WHO HE IS. That may be something many here debate, but I know what I know. There is no doubt in my mind that HE Exists and that HE IS A BLESSING and SOURCE of WISDOM and STRENGTH to those who TRUST in HIM.
The thread is risky. I admit. In fact, I was slow to post it, but again, I prayed about my actions before I stepped forward. I do so in faith believing G'D is WHO I believe HE IS.
The result of this thread will be as much a surprise to me as it is to any and all who visit here. Although, I am certain that for me, the outcome will be one to celebrate. I doubt everyone will feel that way. (And I don't mean that as a threat or implied threat.)
In any case, thanks for visiting the thread. I checked out your Hub Page and you seem a very interesting, very pratical woman, one who doesn't fall for anything, but searches for the most available in life.
MAY G'D BLESS all your endeavors, through my SAVIOUR and FRIEND, JESUS of Nazareth. Amen.
You claim this thread to be risky. There is no risk. You have put yourself on a pedestal, as have several others who defend this thread. Who are you, or anyone, to lay out a challenge and claim God will act?
I have run across statements where atheists are referred to as God botherers. Someone needs to challenge the religious to prove that the title doesn't fit them instead.
You said, "You have put yourself on a pedestal, as have several others who defend this thread.
Actually, I've put my G'D on a pedestal. I'm nothing. I'm no one. I'm just me. Plain and simple. I have no power. I have no supernatural abilities. I've never claimed to have. I don't consider this thread a risk for any other reason than the one that holds me to keep my responses in league with what G'D'S WORD and WILL inspire in me. You will not understand this, because you don't have a relationship with G'D.
You said, "Who are you, or anyone, to lay out a challenge and claim G'D will act?"
I plainly state my case: I am a watchman on the wall. Beyond this, I am a child of G'D, a citizen of the Kingdom of Heaven; and in THE NAME of JESUS, I have authority to present this challenge.
You don't have to agree that I have such a privilege. Again, you don't know G'D, so you can disagree, but your disagreement has no basis, other than your own judgment. I am a Messianic Believer in YESHUA HAMASCIACH. I am not ashamed of the gospel. I'm not ashamed of my G'D. I believe HE HAS the POWER to Defend HIS HOLY NAME. If, how and when HE Chooses to do so, are aspects I leave to HIM.
You said: "I have run across statements where atheists are referred to as G'D botherers. Someone needs to challenge the religious to prove that the title doesn't fit them instead.
You may not believe this Emile, but from the very first day I came to Hub Pages, my faith, my G'D, my beliefs and my heart have been brutally attacked, by so many diverse individuals.
I didn't call them G'D botherers. I didn't call them anything. In fact, I call nobody anything here. However, those who read this challenge will place themselves in their own category. There are three as I see it. Individuals who openly and continuously consider it their right to bash G'D and anyone who believes in HIM, those who have done so, but only because they don't have a personal relationship with G'D and those who believe in HIM, know HIM in spirit and in truth, and have made an effort to defend HIM in whatever manifestation they have at their disposal.
This is a Forum. Anyone who feels insulted is free to choose not to visit. That is what I was told. I extend the same invitation to those who are insulted by this challenge, not because I don't welcome the views of others, but because I understand the sentiment and significance of deep irritation.
When it comes down to it, the only thing I truly desire is for those who have somehow missed, rejected, or resisted HIS GRACE would think about doing so. I have no way of knowing what G'D WILL Do. However, I do know HE Answers prayer. HE Answers mine.
My petition was not one of violence, but a petition requesting inspiration, a proof of HS Existence (of whatever sort HE Deems Right) though HE DOESN'T need to prove anything to anyone... and Scripture regards those who require proof are an adulterous generation.
Perhaps you find this 'religious'. I don't. I don't believe in religion. I believe in FAITH in THE LIVING G'D. I don't follow the precepts of men. I read Scripture though, as often as possible. I study it. I pray through my questions. I seek answers. I will not stop asking. That's how I'm made.
I'm sorry if I offend you. You don't offend me. Know that I consider your comments valuable. Thanks.
G'D BLESS you, in THE NAME of HIS SACRIFICIAL LAMB. Amen.
You said However, those who read this challenge will place themselves in their own category. There are three as I see it. Individuals who openly and continuously consider it their right to bash G'D and anyone who believes in HIM, those who have done so, but only because they don't have a personal relationship with G'D and those who believe in HIM, know HIM in spirit and in truth, and have made an effort to defend HIM in whatever manifestation they have at their disposal.
You have thrown the gauntlet of your god down. That is not the action of an observer.
I would ask you to consider the fact that those you label bashers are not bashing the Holy Spirit. They bash your interpretation. If there is a God, he needs no defense, no champions and no evangelists. If he is, indeed, God. Whatever His will, will be done. Without your, or anyone else's input. I think reality proves that those who think otherwise are wrong and simply ego driven.
How perfectly stated Emile. Thank you for this post because it says something that I've been wanting to say. Why is it that non believers or anyone that doesn't believe in the same brand of religion are considered to be bashing and denying and disrespecting etc.?
The comment on bashing wasn't directed at those who don't. You are free to believe as you desire to believe. No one was placing you in the category along with the bashers... I was simply stating that there are those who do belong to one of those categories.
However, I was generalizing. I shouldn't have done so. There are obviously other categories, categories that haven't been mentioned.
Don't consider you've been called disrespectful.
BLESSINGS to you, in JESUS' PRECIOUS NAME. Amen.
You said, "You have thrown the gauntlet of your god down. That is not the action of an observer."
You're right. Here I have thrown the gauntlet down. However, I never did so on the other Forum Topics I visited since I first came to Hub Pages. I was an observer to begin with, but I decided to change my stance after being assaulted with caustic and denigrating verbiage directed at my faith and my G'D.
You said, "...those you label bashers are not bashing the Holy Spirit...."
I never accused anyone of bashing the Holy Spirit, not anywhere on any post.
You said, "They bash your interpretation."
Do they clearly comprehend my interpretation? My interpretation took over thirty years to establish. No one can assume to understand my interpretation, unless they've read The Bible through and through and through and through, asked THE HOLY SPIRIT for HIS Guidance in study, exposition, analysis and rumination, lived and spiritually died my faith. Unless they have, then they are interpreting falsely.
You said: "If there is a God, he needs no defense, no champions and no evangelists. If he is, indeed, God. Whatever His will, will be done. Without your, or anyone else's input."
Actually, in this point you're wrong. This is the great commission. You would have to believe in JESUS, in The Bible and in the Word of G'D contained in those pages, in order to consider this true. So, I won't go into details.
You said, "I think reality proves that those who think otherwise are wrong and simply ego driven."
If you knew me personally, you wouldn't consider me ego driven. I am driven, yes, but only because I am very passionate about the aspects of life I adhere to. I apply myself fully. I am all or nothing. Perhaps a flaw. Perhaps a virtue. I don't know.
So many here have decided that I placed The Challenge here in order to vaunt myself, but that isn't true. Perception is what it is though. I can't change what people think about me... whether they consider me egotistical, ignorant and more... I don't care what is thought about me.
This entire presentation is not about me. That's not what others have chosen to believe, but that is reality. This is about G'D.
When you said, "If there is a God, he needs no defense, no champions and no evangelists. If he is, indeed, God. Whatever His will, will be done."
Therein lies the beauty of HIS Character. You're so right. HE Doesn't Need me or anyone else to stand up for HIM. HIS WILL can be done without any help; however, HE INVITES us, those of us who hear the calling, to participate in the defense of HIS Kingdom, HIS Sovereignty, HIS Authority, HIS Position. Why? That's what members of a family do... they stand together, for one another, with one another. HE IS Always there for ne.
I cannot do any less.
Emile, I expect a woman who owned a Construction Company to be strong minded and very determined. I don't consider you egotistical because you placed yourself in a man's world (so to speak). I consider you confident, intelligent, capable of making decisions that will affect others, standing up for what you believe. So your comments to me are taken as such.
G'D BLESS you in all your endeavors. I hope you will have a chance to KNOW G'D as I know HIM during the course of your life. If you ever do, you'll realize HE'S MORE AMAZING than words can describe, HE Is WORTHY of my defense. I wouldn't do anything less for any person I love, and (have for) some I don't even love, but especially one who laid down HIS Life for me.
G'D BLESS you, through JESUS, my BEST FRIEND. Amen.
That's pretty much the same way holy wars got started, folks too far gone into their faith who have left reality well behind them believing they are authorities in the name of Jesus.
History and the wars and atrocities Christianity committed in the name of Jesus has provided us with a basis for disagreement.
That shows just how little you know of others needs and wants and just how much you could care less of that.
There are more politics involved in 'holy wars' than 'folks too far gone into their faith who have left reality well behind them[/b]..."
I'm glad you said that... we're talking about two different people groups here... people who have left reality behind... and those who have not, but have embraced G'D as their SAVIOUR, CREATOR and KING.
Unfortunately, you're right... a great many atrocities and wars were committed in the name of Christianity... using "the name of Jesus". This doesn't make HIM the reason. This just makes HIM the scapegoat.
You say, "That shows just how little you know of others needs and wants and just how much you could care less of that."
I do care about others. In life, I never speak about my faith unless the conversation tilts that way, unless guided by THE HOLY SPIRIT to do so...when HE Guides me into that direction, my conversational input is always highly appreciated... here... it's one of the reasons I haven't made any disparaging remarks against anyone, despite being the recipient of several already. Besides, Sir, having spent the greater part of my life investigating this faith I now defend, I have more right to call myself an "authority in THE NAME of JESUS" than those who mock HIM, defame HIM, scorn HIS NAME, HIS Existance, HIS SACRIFICE and more.
I understand that you will not agree. This is your privilege.
I continue to pray G'D BLESSES you, Troubled Man, in THE NAME I hold Sacred, YESHUA HAMASCIACH, THE PROMISED MESSIAH! Amen.
LOL! Yes, that's why they're called "Holy" wars and not "Political" wars.
Perhaps, but it certainly shows just how dangerous the followers are who obsess about the religion. Anyone you know?
That doesn't show at all in your posts.
And, much like the past, you will start conflicts and holy wars with your self-professed authority and accomplish little else.
I will never start conflicts or holy wars. I will always, however, defend my position. I have no authority. I never claimed to have any; yet, I am certain that what I have to say about G'D has more significance to those who are listening, than a person who hasn't experienced HIS LOVE and GOODNESS. When I share what I believe with those who ask, much is accomplished.
I sincerely doubt much is being accomplished here, but then, that's not my problem. It's yours.
BLESSINGS to you, once again, in THE NAME of THE GENEROUS G'D I serve. Amen.
You already started a conflict when you started this thread.
"...in THE NAME of JESUS, I have authority to present this challenge."
When they ask, but no one is asking. You started this thread on your own accord.
So, YOU start this thread to present a challenge, but did not produce a challenge and now it's my problem.
Are you saying that free speech causes "conflict"?
Yes. I presented a challenge. I don't have to produce the challenge. This is not my battle. You don't seem to understand that.
I believe what I believe. Basically, I believe G'D CAN ABSOLUTELY, without any doubt cause you to KNOW HE IS G'D. I said it to begin with. I continue to say it now.
You want to act as though the challenge is over, but it's not over.
When I use THE NAME of JESUS, I use it with love and reverence. You merely use it to deprecate. One of us is wrong. Totally wrong. If it is me, I will admit it, when the time comes.
G'D BLESS you again. Troubled Man.
Of course it can, depending on what you say.
I see no challenge, all I see are empty statements of faith.
Yes, you have made several empty claims of faith, but I still see no challenge.
So, what is the challenge and when does it start?
The time has come, then.
Hi Druid Dude,
You say: What's the challenge? It's posted plainly.
You say: Hast thou setteth thine own self up as GOD's point person?
A watchman on the wall. That's all.
You ask: If so, then what exactly does that mean?
Simple. I've read some really horrendous statements relating to G'D. I found them insulting and deprecating. I didn't bother to say so, because the individuals who posted them are hardened. So, I prayed about it.
What it means essentially, is I don't care what anyone here thinks of me. I believe what I believe. G'D IS more real to me than the words you are reading right now. I don't have anything to prove. I am confident though, that HE HEARD my prayers, and that this 'challenge' is an offer of Grace.
That's nothing new either. Grace is something G'D Has been offering since the beginning of time.
I'm guessing by your name you're into something other than G'D. I consider the old English style of writing you've used is meant to embarass me, or at least make me feel ignorant. I may be wrong, if so, I'm sorry for guessing wrong. If I'm right, I'm not embarassed.
I believe what I believe. Nothing will change that.
Thanks so very much for your comments. Your having joined the discussion is appreciated.
BLESSINGS to you in the NAME ABOVE every name! YESHUA, SON of RIGHTEOUSNESS. Amen.
To all those speaking in rebellion. Let your tongue be still! Please be still! The man appointed by God to speak his words, they are the words from the Holy Spirit. Words done against the Lord can be forgiven but words against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven for the words are those directed toward the Father. The Holy Spirit is given the authority to punish without restraint. Yes, you believe and feel "what can God do to me", for I'm already in hell upon the earth. No, this is not hell, this is not even a taste of the punishment that consumes man whom dare to come against God. Many are already sentenced to their eternal doom; and multitudes are gathered daily. Please be still! A dead man who dies in his sins cannot repent! Eternally is a long time for the gnashing of teeth and regrets. And hell is not just fire! God in his wrath can perform things beyond your comprehension. Be Still! Satan and the evil ruling spirits do not care anything about you. They are manipulating your tongue to do what they themselves won't do. They tremble at the thought and presence of God. Don't allow them to reveal you as weak! That is their agenda. The man whom despises another is afraid and weak. Remember, a panic man drowns! Those whom can understand, Be still!
Welcome Rhonda Elisha.
Thanks so very much for your sharing your heart. I've been to your Hub Page and see that you are a Messianic Jew. I am also Messianic. Welcome again.
I would like to request your prayers... not so much the fire and brimstone that you have already shared. You and I know what we know. But this challenge is not about punishment... at least that is not what HE Has placed in my heart... it's about G'D'S REPUTATION and PRECIOUS NAME!
I was truly disappointed to read some of the disparaging comments directed at HIM. So, I asked HIM about it. I am TRUSTING HIM to BESTOW UNMERITED COMPASSION, yes, HIS MATCHLESS GRACE upon those who take the challenge, not snuff them out. HE IS MERCIFUL... so MERCIFUL and I am confident, that HE WILL grant the petition, that HE Give the mockers and scorners an undenyable opportunity to INVITE HIM into their lives.
Of course, many will resist and reject this invitation, but that is between HIM and them. As we know, if HE CANNOT REACH through the stoney barriers baracading hardened hearts, we will surely never be able to do so.
So, Rhonda, thank you for your admonitions. I understand your heartfelt hurt at reading some words that are meant to scoff HIM.
I believe HE IS MORE THAN ABLE to DEFEND HIS HOLY NAME.
As for us, let us join together in prayer, asking HIM to MAKE HIMSELF REAL to those who present themselves in acceptance of this challenge.
The Challenge is HIS not mine. However, I yearn for HIS Name to be Revered even as you do... so I've made myself available to HIM, as a vessel at HIS Disposal. And in faith believing, I TRUST HE WILL HONOUR HIS MAJESTIC NAME!
BLESSINGS to you, in THE MIGHTY, MARVELOUS and MOST HIGH NAME of ADONAI! our KING! Amen.
I thought the Lord, Holy Spirit and the Father were all the same person? How can one talk against the Lord and be fine, but not the Holy Spirit if they are one in the same?
Dearest Double Scorpion, (May I call you DS?)
Your name suggests a sting may, at any moment, spring forth from you...
You say, "I thought the Lord, Holy Spirit and the Father were all the same person?
This is true. G'D IS FATHER, SON and HOLY SPIRIT... or L'RD, FATHER and HOLY SPIRIT... but consider them identifyable using this analogy: body, soul, spirit...
G'D THE FATHER REIGNS Supreme. JESUS, THE SON, is now and forever will be identified by HIS INCARNATE MANIFESTATION, THE HOLY SPIRIT is that part of HIM that is just that... SPIRIT. One and the same... different manifestations.
You said: How can one talk against the Lord and be fine, but not the Holy Spirit if they are one in the same?
Scripture warns against speaking ill of THE HOLY SPIRIT. This is the unpardonable sin. There are also considerations that only G'D Can Judge when a mockery of HIM is pronounced... G'D KNOWS the heart of man; therefore, some have actually blasphemed THE HOLY SPIRIT by their words... G'D ALONE Will ultimately decide if the act perpetrated unwittingly is judged by the same standard so as to be unpardonable. Just to let you know...
G'D BLESS you, DS. Thanks for your questions.
So what happens if I spit and vomit on the Holy Spirit, and then kick him in his butt, if he has one?
Dearest Troubled Man,
I'm so sorry for you. You've been warned, but you continue desiring to be vulgar and base. You don't have any class. However, I pray G'D IS MERCIFUL to you.
The fact that you continue to want to be so obtuse, well, that's on you. You're going to face HIM. When you do... well... right now, I'm just really, really sorry for you.
MAY G'D HAVE MERCY on you, for you either don't know what you're doing, or you do and well... MAY HE HAVE MERCY on you, through CHRIST JESUS, to whom you will have to repent... if not, then bow down before. Amen.
So, can we assume there is no challenge and you're just fooling us?
I thought you were going to present me some sort of a challenge with HIM, but all you're doing is preaching to everyone.
Empty threats. So much for your challenge. Nothing but a waste of time on irrational fantasies and obsessions.
I don't know what to think about you. I told you from the beginning I wasn't threatening you.
And, nothing to do with G'D is a waste of my time. Your time? Well, that's another matter. However, this challenge is far from over.
You're not insulting me with all your snide remarks. I can't be made to look more stupid than I already look, to any and all who want to see me that way.
IF G'D WERE to decide to let you continue talking about HIM as you do... to continue insulting HIS HOLY NAME, there is nothing I can do about it.
That would not change WHO HE IS, or what I believe about HIM. I am human. I am prone to error.
G'D IS in charge here. I stated from the beginning... I am not promoting myself here. I'm not trying to make myself look holier than you, more perfect, wonderful, intelligent or anything else you can come up with. I'm simply stating, plainly, clearly, and with as much zeal as I consider fair to you and to me, that the G'D you have decided to mock and offend is my G'D. HE IS REAL.
You will know it, sooner or later. I consider sooner is on the way; however, HE KNOWS BEST.
I have no problem waiting this out. You do though. You want HIM to respond when you say so... I presented a challenge.
Tell me, did you do what was asked? Or did you simply come to the board excited about the opportunity to mock me along with mocking my G'D?
See, I don't care what you say about me... You can continue. You can say whatever you like, about me. It's not my reputation that I am wanting to preserve here.
I am standing up for THE G'D of ALL CREATION. HE IS.
You can continue to say, HE IS not, but... the end of this challenge doesn't necessarily result here, or now.
G'D IS G'D.
Me... I'm simply female. I never claimed to be anything more.
You however, well... you are G'D'S Issue, not mine. I am absolutely sorry for you. I'm sorry you consider my challenge a threat... and then an empty one at that.
I wonder why you call yourself "Troubled"? Because, I can honestly say, even if nothing happens here, I am not troubled, in the least.
The fact that you think this "nothing but a waste of time..." doesn't surprise me. I think, without knowing you any better... you are a shallow individual... not because you don't believe as I believe, but because you resolve your frustration relating to my beliefs by stating nothing but base comments.
In my humble opinion, Troubled Man, you are more likely to start a holy war than I would ever be... no wait... let me restate that... you would gladly feed me to the lions, while I would never do that to you.
G'D BLESS you none-the-less... in JESUS' MIGHTY, PRECIOUS and MOST BELOVED NAME! Amen.
There's nothing He can do about it, either.
But, you'll never actually admit to the errors.
No, you are in charge of yourself, what you do and what you say. I can mock your G'D as much as I want and nothing will happen because your G'D is just an imaginary friend, like a seven foot rabbit in a beard.
I see no challenge, just empty words based on faith. And, since you've yet to present a challenge of any kind, you're just wasting everyone's time with preaching.
What did you ask? To read some verses? Done. Now what?
Yes, you are creating conflict where none was before.
Ii see nothing more than empty threats. I see no challenge.
Funny, I did not insult you but you feel the urge to insult me. So much for your empty words about not judging others.
You sure do have an overactive and paranoid imagination.
Seriously Rhonda do you honestly believe what you've written? Do you read it through. I'm all for free speech and the beautiful diversity of opinion but for goodness sake get a grip!
What's with all the punishment without restraint nonsense? Why does everything have to involve 'gnashing of teeth'. Why does your God feel the need to punish and hurt? Your experience of reality and the world around you is so different to mine and I feel no need to continually bow down to a vengeful and spiteful God. The universe I feel, see and hear is one of unconditional love, not violence.
I'm so aware of the love that surrounds us all having experienced it first hand for many years, but then I guess you would say I have been tricked by Satan and evil entities. Raise your awareness, raise your own vibration away from fear and ego and maybe you too can feel the love all around.
Hello Angel Trader,
Your comments are being directed toward someone who is more than likely heart stricken by some of the non-chalant remarks that have been posted here already. Perhaps, your faith in G'D, or appreciation and approval of someone who reacts with such gravity is less.
You're right. Love surrounds us. Unfortunately, so does hate. If you've experienced love first hand for many years, without the infringement of hatred, then you are most certainly one of the blessed few.
I can't answer for Rhonda, except to say, that I've felt like her after reading some of the caustic remarks directed at G'D, but I refrained from responding as fervently as she did. Perhaps I acted cowardly. Perhaps I used tact. I'm unsure what my motivation was, but I do know this: fear of expressing myself as freely as she just did was an undercurrent in my decision.
Not everyone feels the need to show restraint. In my case, G'D IS Teaching me something here. So, I am being very cautious, answering thread posts as HE Leads.
So far, I pray I am HONOURING HIS Will and not following my own. HE IS the ONE I care to represent here. I pray to do so as HE DESIRES, no matter what may follow in the way of responses.
Of course, I'm only human... so I may fail. HE KNOWS me. So what I do, or fail to do will not enlighten anyone but me. I'm TRUSTING HE IS TRUSTING me to do what HE Has prepared me to do.
You may think me crazy. That's your privilege. My awareness is raised. I assure you. I do not live under fear or ego. In fact, fear and ego would have kept me from posting this challenge.
My decision to move ahead was one I haven't taken lightly... not even now.
I pray this entire post ends up a BLESSING to many... including you.
G'D BLESS you. MAY HIS Angels Guard your heart and mind. MAY HIS SON, JESUS POUR HIS ABUNDANT GRACE into your life. Amen.
Thank you for your reply. Firstly I'd like to state I do not think you are crazy and respect your beliefs. The very nature of a public forum lends itself to extreme views of all sorts be they denigrators or defenders of whatever religious belief they hold and to a degree the worst is brought out by both sides.
My response was borne out of exasperation at the continued veiled threats I read on HubPages written by well intentioned but fear spreading fundamentalists. And it was Rhonda's reply that I was addressing and I will reply directly to their reply shortly.
Does your vision of God love unconditionally or do you have to earn it? I send out unconditional love to all I come across but is that true of your God. I ask for nothing in return yet it seems your God demands tribute and unswerving obedience or else eternal damnation awaits. Why is this? Did we ask to be incarnated on this Earth in order to prove how worthy we are of God's love or are we here to experience a physical experience in order for our soul's to evolve. Are we here to experience negative ego driven emotions? Personally I never experience feelings of hatred towards anyone or anything but I see plenty of hatred around.
I am fully aware of where we come from and what our true natures are and throughout all my experiences all I have ever felt is safe, secure and loved. We do not visit this plane of reality just the once but return and incarnate again and again. We come from a place of pure love where ego and all the negative emotions that state creates doesn't exist. There is no hell, no damnation, no eternal gnashing of teeth but bliss and love. Through a raising of consciousness that state of bliss could easily manifest here on Earth but there are too many negative influences on humanity at present preventing that occurring.
Each and everyone of us is surrounded by love and angels by our side but many are stuck in a low vibration induced by fear and never feel that love. Spreading fear and damnation, like Rhonda did, does nothing to raise consciousness or love.
Regarding your reply: There are many people of today that hold skepticism against one having a true spirit of God. For, they have been for such a long time fostered by men of no honor to intertwine the desires of the world and that of God. Men whom have portrayed God as just another man. Men whom have dishonored God through their acts of self-gain and recognition. This is why many men hold this skepticism against another whom has been appointed by God. I was formally one myself, despising and mistrusting anyone whom approached me in the manner in which I now stand. Yes, of my former self the world gave me clothing to wear (the badges of treachery, deciet and betrayal) and money flowed, I pretended to be happy, but I was an angry untrustworthy man, though, in the darkness, afraid and shattered of my own doom. I personally used my God given gifts to foster great harm against anyone whom angered me. But I praise God for he snathed me from the fire, and allowed me life. I did not die in my sins. What was done in evil I now do for good. God is God and worthy of all praise, he is not a vengeful God. It is man who is treacherous against him and then being as a child becomes resentful and bitter when he administers punishment. It is man whom brings problems against himself and then blames God. What I now say is not to convince you nor to establish proof against myself, but, as allowed by the Lord, I speak: There are things I have seen beyond anything you can imagine. There are things I know beyond things you can imagine. I care whether you believe or not! And I know, not only through scripture the Holy Spirit has the authority to punish without restraint of any blasphemy against God; I have seen it! And I will say this, I know personally how much the Lord loves his creation and the mercy he extends; not through books nor Sabbath meetings nor earthly conversation. I know personally! If there is someone whom you love, would you not try and save them from harm. Which is why, yes, I will snatch those as if from the fire! Because I do not pretend to love another, I do! I feel for every man in existence not just those whom are close to me. I'm not perfect! I'm an unworthy sinner, staying constantly aware of it, which keeps me on the right path; because I love my Lord Yeshua and I desire to please him in all aspects of my life; And, I also fear the things he has shown me. I'm not here to convince another of myself, only that of God! I'm only here to serve! I do not need to display merits to convince another of my self-worth; My task is to share with all from the inspiration of the Holy Spirit whom desire to hear, the understanding and knowledge of God in-order to gain a more confident and intimate walk with him.
Rhonda I don't doubt that "there are many people of today that hold skepticism against one having a true spirit of God" but surely the answer isn't to induce fear of eternal damnation and punishment in them.
Fear is an ego driven negative emotion which in my personal experience has nothing to do with our true elemental state. From what you write it seems you bear guilt for past actions and seek absolution from that past by defending your faith with a passionate fervour! Is it past guilt that has put visions of "things I have seen beyond anything you can imagine" in your mind? Thank you for considering the rest of us but I have seen things beyond anything you can imagine also. The difference being mine have been visions full of unconditional love, compassion and bliss.
The spirit realm I am aware of is pure unconditional love and each and everyone of us is surrounded by love continually. Break free from the fear and the love will flow in.
Shalom Rhonda Elisha!
I just wanted to say, I hope to read your book.
You said: There are things I have seen beyond anything you can imagine. There are things I know beyond things you can imagine. I care whether you believe or not! And I know, not only through scripture the Holy Spirit has the authority to punish without restraint of any blasphemy against God; I have seen it!
I haven't seen what you have seen. I am most certain of that. Living in Ethiopia must have imposed experiences to your life that I would probably fail to survive.
Then you also said: And I will say this, I know personally how much the Lord loves his creation and the mercy he extends; not through books nor Sabbath meetings nor earthly conversation. I know personally! If there is someone whom you love, would you not try and save them from harm. Which is why, yes, I will snatch those as if from the fire!
Thank you for your comments. Sadly, there are too many here who don't know, don't want to know and would never believe if you told them, no matter how harsh your reality has been.
I believe I could learn much from you though. I don't practice any of the Jewish traditions. My husband is not a believer. My faith is my faith.
There is a world of difference between what we 'see' and what those who choose not to, see. Therefore, there is nothing but for us to pray.
Prayer is the key. If you are praying, I thank you for joining with me. In the meantime,
G'D BLESS you, In THE POWERFUL yet MERCIFUL NAME of our KING! YESHUA HAMASCIACH! Amen.
7 Billion souls and 7 Billion individual experiences of reality but you just seem to believe yours is the only valid one! I posed some thoughts to Rhonda who hasn't bothered addressing them...fine, but please don't presume your reality is the only valid one and all others should be discounted.
What is with the constant fear mongering? Love for crying out loud, reach out and help, live with compassion for others and just stop with the constant retribution line. The life you lead is a learning experience for you alone, and one which your spirit set in play long before you incarnated here on Earth. As mine was and every other spirit.
Namaste ("I honor the place within you where the entire Universe resides; I honor the place within you of love, of light, of truth, of peace; I honor the place within you, where, when you are in that place in you, and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.")
You do realize that typing all of this into a hub would actually reach people who wish to hear what you would like to say. All this energy put into a thread where non-believers are only going to ridicule you and ignore anything that might be worthwhile is counter productive.
You think you are doing God's work, but you are actually just forcing people away from his message. Tirades like this make you look slightly unbalanced and no one wants to take advice on spiritual matters from those who they perceive to be zealots.
In short, you aren't making any converts here. You are actually making me, who does believe, feel embarrassed to count you among Christians.
17Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
18When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
19Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
20Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.Ezekiel 3
Over and over in Ezekiel it says "son of man", "son of man"- "also eat my words" Also in Ezekiel 3 it tell of the need of being filled with God's spirit too, in order to even go and warn the people.
For you are all the children/sons of God by faith in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:26
So those that have accepted Jesus as their Lord, have the spirit of Christ-God's spirit and do as he commissioned us to do in Mark 15- Go you out into all the world and preach the gospel/truth that Jesus saves, heals & delivers.
And in James 1, we must be a doer of the word of God, or we will not be blessed.
And in Matt 10:32-33 It warns us that if we don't tell the world about Jesus, than Jesus will deny us.
So I deny the lies from those who are not following Christ, when they are not.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.John 3:14-15
Your Great Name
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rq03fa_n … re=related
Now you know how the rest of us feel about humanity in general.
Hi Melissa Barrett!
You said: You do realize that typing all of this into a hub would actually reach people who wish to hear what you would like to say. All this energy put into a thread where non-believers are only going to ridicule you and ignore anything that might be worthwhile is counter productive.
You have a point. The only problem is, I purposefully selected this platform, because it is the very platform that I visited, only to be met by remarks of the most dishonourable kind. I was weighed down by the caustic nature of replies given to Believers in YESHUA, THE KING. I was absolutely saddened by the disrespectful way G'D's NAME was brandished, not by all, but by many.
You said: You think you are doing God's work, but you are actually just forcing people away from his message. Tirades like this make you look slightly unbalanced and no one wants to take advice on spiritual matters from those who they perceive to be zealots.
Melissa, Sweetie... you're judging me. Moreover, you consider to know what G'D HAS put into my heart. You don't know that; and making the remarks you make may actually be feeding the fire of those who really don't need your help. Of course, you're free to do it, but I don't believe you really want to help them mutilate the concept of G'D, deprecate HIS NAME and insult any who, being weaker, cannot withstand their taunts.
You said: In short, you aren't making any converts here.
Making converts was never my intention, Beloved of THE L'RD. I am not addressing 'converts' here. I'm defending THE NAME of A MIGHTY, GENEROUS, GOOD and yet, ALL CONSUMING G'D.
You said: You are actually making me, who does believe, feel embarrassed to count you among Christians.
I am really not certain to whom you were directing this comment, but for the sake of my response, let's say 'me'.
... and I have no answert for you. What you feel relating to those who you think may believe as you do, but don't show it the way you would, is between you and G'D.
If I embarass you, then I embarass you. Nothing to be done about that. I didn't come here to build myself a fanclub. Quite the contrary, my faults are on display. That's why I need a Saviour. That's why I love HIM as I do. HE KNOWS me. HE KNEW me... and HE STILL LOVED/LOVES me. HE's not embarassed by me. How do I know? Because HE SEES my heart. HE KNOWS exactly what motivated me.
BLESSINGS to you, IN THE NAME of THE ONE WHO SPILLED HIS BLOOD for the many of us who know, with certainty, we are flawed, YESHUA HAMASCIACH! THE GLORIOUS SON of G'D. Amen.
Thank you heavenbound, believe it or not I own a bible AND have read it... several times...
Or are we having a random cut and paste contest where we bold stuff for extra points? Cool... How about this one, it's one of my favorites!
King Arthur: I am your king.
Peasant Woman: Well, I didn't vote for you.
King Arthur: You don't vote for kings.
Peasant Woman: Well, how'd you become king, then?
[Angelic music plays... ]
King Arthur: The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite, held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. That is why I am your king.
Dennis the Peasant: Listen. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
Arthur: Be quiet!
Dennis the Peasant: You can't expect to wield supreme power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!
Than in that case you must know that you don't appear to be following Christ.
Actually my response was correct- you can not claim Christ and be ashamed of him at the same time.
If a Christian, is claiming to be a follower of Christ it will be evident.
We can not serve 2 masters- dear.
Yes some of it is copy & pasted but oh well- it is the very thing that you need to hear-the truth.
You act as though I randomly pulled these scriptures out and that they don't apply- but that's a lie too.
God bless you- I pray that God reveals to you, that their is one mediator in between God & Man Jesus Christ.
But you prob. know that too- but do you believe it?- or do you think there just pretty words not to be taken seriously? I do not refuse the sound doctrine of Jesus Christ- and I advise that you do not.
Even if you won't listen- the choice is still yours.
You won't be able to refute your justification to God unless you come by the blood of the Lamb- Jesus.
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
You ended with--"Dennis the Peasant: You can't expect to wield supreme power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!"
The word of God is a sword (eph6)and we are to live by the word of God(matt 4)- also it pierces our hearts(heb 4)- no wonder there's boo hooing and whining when the word of God is given- It is showing us exactly what we are and why we need Jesus. So I guess you knew that too- it's in the BIBLE that you read.
So much difference in reading the bible- than reading and doing. God's wisdom, knowledge left unused- or acted upon is dead to the one that doesn't do or believe it.
I'm not ashamed of Christ. I am ashamed of brain washed idiots spouting off bible verses in an attempt to prove their superiority.
If you aren't intelligent enough to form a cohesive argument then don't post. Cutting an pasting bible verses shows that you are following like a blind sheep and have no opinion of your own.
If God would have wanted zombie followers that simply mouth phrases he would not have given us free-will. You want to tell us what God has done for you, then have at it. If you want to share how you interpret a verse, or what it means to you, then by all means... you have the floor.
Otherwise, you are simply a screwed up repetitive version of Bible Google, spouting duplicate content that no one was asking for, that doesn't answer any questions, and that in no way fits what I was looking for.
So don't try and do that "If you really followed Jesus" crap with me. Because if YOU really followed you would have something more substantial than a cut and paste.
But if you REALLY must repeat the bible verbatim, then for the love of God go read it to the blind or the illiterate. At least then you would be doing God's work rather than running around pointing out motes.
You call believers brother and sister then berate them for speaking the words of their Father?
Came back to edit and add this: You should also accept the challenge presented in the OP.
I call believers brothers and sisters when they are not using the Word to bludgeon other people into believing the way they do. I call believers brother and sister when they are treating others the way they would like to be treated. If you are attempting to bring others to Jesus by berating, nagging, and shoving the word of God down someone else's throat, then no you are not my brother or sister. You have perverted everything that Christ stood for. Christ was a shepard that led his people... he didn't stand behind them prodding and haranguing them forward.
In response to your edit: I live my life according to Jesus's teachings. I don't need an audience to tell me I'm doing it right. I also don't need bludgeon people into my viewpoints to feel like a good Christian.
Then why hijack a thread? No one addressed you in the OP. No one addressed you at all until you started posting on it. I just don't see the point. Someone has a chance to maybe see the salvation of the Lord and you are a distraction.
Do you believe that the Word is so weak that my distraction would stop someone from reaching salvation?
Threads like this do more harm than good to Christianity. Just like street corner preachers do more harm than good. No one wants to be associated with a group of fruit-loops and Zealots. I think that little distraction is a little more damning than I could ever be.
What word? The word you say we should not speak? You are a distraction if you do not believe in what the OP stated. Why not accept the challenge presented instead of hijacking the thread. I am sure the challenge is open to anyone who will accept it.
Virgil, if you think I am hijacking a thread, then by all means report me, otherwise do stop going on about it before someone claims it's in the Bible.
I don't need to take a silly challenge, I already have my faith. Why don't you take the challenge, as you seem to think that I am stronger than the Word. (That would be the bible, btw... I thought you of all people would know that)
This is just for you.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Thank you, that is a beautiful verse that teaches a lesson of how we can improve the world through self-sacrifice. I fail to see it's relevance in this situation however. I also don't understand how you think I hadn't heard it/read it before.
And you still made no sense- I did give you an answer.
What I intended to get across to you with Ezek 3- is that we are supposed to warn people- and you being a Christian- To say don't tell unbelievers to accept Jesus- don't offer it because they are not listening. This puts you on the side of those that oppose Christ.
And the part about Galatians 3:26- is showing you that we are sons of God through Jesus Christ- so this clearly means that ezekiel 3 is referring to us, that have received Jesus and we are to warn the people.
Mark 15- is to shows you that JESUS told us to do this very thing, invite people to the marriage of the lamb- those that accept him will be saved.
James 1 supports the fact we are to do what God's word says.
Matt 10: warns us that if we don't tell of Jesus to a dying, rebellious world that He (JESUS) WILL DENY US. So I will now refer you to look at what God said about lukewarm Christians & I won't tell you where it is- since you know your bible.
And Moses in the wilderness obeyed God and lived- we too have to obey God and lift up the name of Jesus to save those that are perishing without him.
If not we will be over taken with no way of escape, because our only hope is that in Jesus and if we won't accept it, believe it, do what we have been told to do and obey God- than we have chosen to not dwell in his safety.
The Gospel of Jesus is so simple a child can understand it.
So really I was making sense- if you'd read to understand instead of getting mad.
So in short you are coming across as to say that we should not do as God has instructed or even follow Jesus. And the word of God is useless and should not be shared.
If we are for Jesus- and truly understand what he came to do- than by all means we will encourage them to accept Jesus their Lord.
Jesus is to be shined in the darkness and all God's warns aren't just a simple I love you, but because I love you-walk this way.If you walk this way, you will be safe and blessed- if not cursed.
*Nope, not a blind sheep, but a sheep that can see and knows the voice of God, the spirit of God. But thanks for all the encouragement- name calling really makes your point come across-huh?
God want to give people mercy and save them and forgive them- what a horrible message you have declared it to be- it seems.
And you had to say superiority- Like I am better than you actually or even think it!
Wow, you know your bible?
Hmmm..... I have been given the same chance as the rest of you, I am held to the same standards as thew word I share with you, I too have messed up and needed to repent and learn the ways of God.
I am here to let you all know that the way God loves me in Christ, is the same way he loves you all and to accept Jesus as your Lord.
So better than you- NO!
I learned obedience through what I suffered, I have learned to obey God and live- living a sinful rebellious life does lead to death-separation from God.
God does not want this- So I will not shut up!
You may not think you need the word of God- but someone out there does and there life will be saved by Jesus.
God word is truth, we keep it before our eyes, and in our hearts- so we will not sin against God. I choose to honor God with my life and in order to do this I have to let God sustain me and lead me.
Just because I choose to honor God and strive to follow him does not mean I am a zombie- you know the word of God tells us about being in one accord and it is around the death & resurrection of Jesus Christ our Lord- this is the foundation.
Without this foundation we will not stand.
By the way God's word is not crap and me using it is not crap/useless.
You read your bible?
So out of my love for God- I share his love with you-to lead you to Jesus the only one that can save you!! How mean I am... boo hoo!
A lie is a lie- and the people need not to be confused about how God loves them and sent Jesus to save them. I stand for the truth- and the truth will and does set people free.-** http://youtu.be/IeiRdR6wbv4
God bless you!
A sincere question. You do not have to answer if you don't wish to. Are you a Jehovah Witness?
No- I am not. I like to lead them to Jesus at my front door too! For real-LOL!
I didn't say the bible was crap, I said your superior act was crap. You are not the bible.
Otherwise, thank you for finally having a conversation rather than throwing scripture at me.
Please stop asking me if I read my Bible. I do daily. It sits on my nightside stand. I obviously don't get the same meaning out of it that you do. I don't believe that wickedness means being non-christian, I believe that wickedness means being wicked. I think that even devout Christians can be wicked by means of pride. I also believe that Christians can too early assume their roles of judges in heaven.
Furthermore, no commandment was ever issued that one needs to verbally assault people or give sermons against their will. I believe that goes against the "do onto others" commandment. That is unless every single Christian here would be comfortable taking the challenge if you replaced the wording with Allah or Budda instead of God or Jesus. If you wouldn't be open to someone else doing the exact same thing to you about their religious beliefs then you are breaking a commandment by doing it to others.
Now, I do believe that it is our job to spread the word of Jesus's teachings and I think he showed us how to do that. Feed the hungry, tend to the ill, help the poor. Do it in Jesus's name. That is witnessing without violating the spirit of his teachings.
We are to lead them to Christ- by this Romans 10:9-10- believe in your heart that Jesus died for our sins,God raised Jesus from the dead and confess him as your Lord.
This leading them to God through Christ- at the same time we meet there physical needs- but without Jesus for there salvation all the other help is pretty much worthless because they still are going to die separated from God.
And to say for me to stop the if we follow Jesus crap - is a direct insult on God's word- because the teachings of Jesus we are to follow.
directly following this Jesus crap statement you said:But if you REALLY must repeat the bible verbatim, then for the love of God go read it to the blind or the illiterate. So yes you did- it's a fact not opinion.
Yes, I would want someone warning me, and sharing with me God's ability to save me by Jesus free gift salvation.
Actually, someone did tell me about Jesus, and led me to accept him as the Bible says 14 yrs ago and not a man-made way- I wasn't mad- I wanted to know about God and how he can change my life & etc.
I was so hungry for his word.
I will have none of your blood on my hands by not opening my mouth and declaring where your freedom is- and I am not leading none to those dead life-less paths that are not of Jesus.
God has told us right from wrong- but the world doesn't believe he is a jealous God. He does not want us led away into the same bondage as that of the Babylonians- serving there false gods-perverting the way of God- We our warned of this spirits rise in the days that draw close to Jesus return.
So the word of God is truth and isn't hard to understand when it comes to what we are to do and not. How to serve God and what God hates.
The choice is ours- we can let God lead us or someone else that preaches a different Jesus- than the one of salvation, grace, power, healing & deliverance.
By the way I do street ministry and I don't tell people there going to hell!! it is the love of God that leads people to God. Jesus died so we won't be have to condemned. Yes there is a way that leads to death and is too found in sinning against God. God want us to turn from our wrong ways and not walk into destruction- like those in the days of Noah did- they accepted all kinds of sins, false gods, on and on- they did not want to love God by Honoring Him with there life and the things they did.
We can go out all day and give stuff away but without Jesus and asking God to fill us up with His spirit IN JESUS NAME- we are just as lost as the others.
God bless you!
God's people perish for the lack of knowledge- studying the word of God and asking God to lead us, allows us to spot a counterfeit teaching any day.
I was just trying to figure out if you were a member of one of them, but I'm now guessing that you are an independent?
Why? If we agree on Christ that's all that counts and all we need to follow God.
I am telling you of Jesus- not religion.
Pretty much all religions have different concepts of Jesus. Which concept is yours? Just curious.
What the bible says- God sent Jesus to die for us- for our sins that caused a break in our fellowship with our holy God.
Jesus is the word of God, Son God,the only way to God.
The light of the world, truth and mankind's only hope.
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10
John 17: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se … ersion=NIV
Well, right or wrong, I have concluded that you are an independent. I, for one, think independent thought is a good thing.
I hope you won't mind me saying, you remind me of me, a quarter of a century ago. Like you, I was bold IN THE L'RD. I didn't care what people thought of me then. I don't care what people think of me now.
One thing I learned during my JESUS freak days, was that, at times, I was so passionate about what I believed, that I couldn't contain myself. I've been working on that aspect ever since.
G'D IS G'D, and as someone else wisely pointed out, HE DOESN'T REALLY NEED us to speak for HIM; however, HE DELIGHTS in the fact that there are some of us that will.
There's so much I could say to you, but we don't know one another that well... and perhaps I am jumping ahead of myself by writing this message to you.
I am not admonishing your tactics. I love the fact that you are willing to stand up FOR HIM. There aren't enough of us who will. However, being older and older now... I've revised my strategies. I go to HIM first now, before I speak my peace/piece (LOL)... I've learned so very much by doing things this way... and I regret much less, if anything at all.
BLESSINGS to you, Beloved of THE KING! I believe you when you call yourself Heaven Bound. I look forward to meeting you there one day!
IN YESHUA HAMASCIACH, our CAPTAIN of HOSTS, our HEALER, our HERO! Amen.
Melissa ought to be familiar with the bible.. she's in it!
LMAO, I resent that. I've never wore sheep's clothing in my life.
don't worry. Nobody here with any understanding would take you for a member of the flock.
You have no idea how grateful I am for that. Thank you so very much for the compliment.
Take it any way you want. Just please don't call yourself a christian as it makes other people question joining a group that would appear to have such contemptuous people being so vocal and antagonistic.
There is simply no way you are christian, regardless of what you claim to be. Someone who is indwelled with the Holy Spirit is eager to understand the Scriptures and share them. Clearly this is not you. Perhaps you should change your label the same way the pagans 'converted' to christianity during Constantinople's era. In their case it was simply a matter of using different words for the same rituals. Your views seem to suit the pagan theology. Why not look at that?
ROFLMAO, yep I'll jump right on changing my entire belief system because the sock puppet of a sock puppet holds a monopoly on the definition of Christianity.
Actually, it shouldn't involve any change in life, much less your "entire belief system" which seems to be based entirely on saying "I'm a christian" except you'll now label yourself a pagan instead of a christian since your actions and words are not christian in nature. I'm just saying why not be honest with yourself since you're not fooling anyone else? If anything, you might be happy (at least in the short term) because you'll be around people that you don't hold in contempt. Assuming you stop hanging around to badmouth people who actually do the work of the group that you claim to belong to.
As for the definition of Christianity... it means to follow in the footsteps of Christ by using Him as an example of what to aspire to. Nobody will ever meet that goal, obviously, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't do our best. Real christians support and encourage each other. I have never once seen you do that on here. Your goal is to try and get everyone else to lower their standards to your level in the hopes that your laziness won't be the exception.
And that's fine if you want to live your life that way. Just do it honestly and don't pretend you really are a christian as you've claimed.
I didn't realize that I had to support every single person who chooses to follow Christ, whether I thought they were wrong or not, to be a Christian.
Maybe you should consider being a Rastafarian. Since you are not supporting my efforts, then you are obviously not a Christian. It's okay if you want to be a Rastafarian, just do it honestly and don't pretend you really are a christian as you've claimed...
See how that works? You say you are the real christian, I repeat your words back to you saying the exact same thing, except in reverse, and you 1. Realize that you are being hypocritical and judgmental or 2. Are so self-righteous that you assume that your own words apply to everyone BUT you.
I got twenty on you choosing 2. Any takers?
Melissa is a believable member of the flock, her actions are good, not hypocrytical and egocentric.
To the mockers and naysayers on this thread. Why not take her up on the challenge she presented? All you have done is mock and hijack the thread which is against the TOS. Put your money where your mouth is and accept the challenge. If she is wrong, nothing will happen. What if she is right?
I'll be honest with you. I knew you would be the first to respond.
Don't give up. Time is on HIS side.
I'm cheering for you!
BLESSINGS to you, in THE NAME of THE ALPHA and OMEGA! Amen.
Yes Melissa Barrett I totaly agree and there are a lot of brainwashed morons that spout off all the time like that.Ignore them most of them love to here themselves flap ther yaps!
not only muslims that suffer from bad stupid reponces cristians too
anny one who could convince me that critianity is thr right path????
I don't see what there is to the Challenge. And I am curious how a mere mortal is authorized to even issue a challenge in God's name.
Very well said EMILE.There will unfortuneatly always be people like this around.Know it all Know nothing!
Here we have a similar situation to what happened in 1 Kings 18 when Elijah came up against the prophets of Baal.
I await the fire and the results, though you may need to dampen the wood more in order to show those false prophets the real power that God can use.
Assuming you do have divine providence to post this thread, it should be interesting.
I notice that several of the old protagonists are either missing or using assumed names in the forums.
Prayer does work!
I was wondering if you were following this at all.
I wasn't planning on dampening any wood... just holding my ground despite the attacks on my intelligence, the slights addressed toward my linguistic skills and any other barb that awaits me.
I used to pray to be an Elijah. But, I can't be. I don't have the courage.
I'm awaiting G'D as well.
I don't mind who is or isn't here. The fact is, this is a board hosted in free country. Everyone has a right to an opinion. I knew that coming in.
Prophets of Baal? Hmmm. I don't think they've decided to venture into the fray. Perhaps they're being gracious to me. Perhaps, they're simply otherwise engaged. I'm sure a good many people have so much more to do than hang around the Forums...
Maybe I would have been smarter to steer clear myself. Oh, but... no... I really am not that smart.
BLESSINGS to you, Aguasilver, in THE NAME of EL SHADDAI! our ONLY WISDOM, our ONLY STRENGTH! Amen.
You may not think yourself smart, but you do have strength to call the antichrists' out on this issue.
I am busy trying to sort out a few world matters right now, so am infrequent in the forums.
My house in Spain was called El Shaddai, which was true!
With you in spirit and praying for discernment and wisdom as you tackle the cackle of the enemy fools.
My goodness, you believers sure do love the thought of having enemies, where none exist.
My goodness, you secularists are totally blind to the truth, you have a great enemy who seeks to destroy you, and you deny his existence as vehemently as you deny God.
You really think all this nonsense comes from your own fertile brain? you are drip fed by your own personal demons who will keep you in soporific rebellion until they can take you home with them, their home, not the home that God wished you to share with Him.
I have more fear of enemas than your imagined enemies.
I could never live my life with the constant belief I have enemies just because they don't believe in some medieval fairy tale. A very sad existence, one that could easily harbor a lot of hatred towards others.
No Trouble, you misunderstand, you don't have enemies "because they don't believe in some medieval fairy tale"
Believers are not your enemy, your enemy is the demon you defuse to believe in that actually has you on a string like a marionette, jerking your little arms and kicking your little feet, and swinging you head from side to side whilst all the time you believe you are 'numero uno' and in control.
Sounds like ego, to me.
Perhaps the most sinister enemy is one who you think is a friend. But if that enemy pretends to be yourself, finding salvation seems to threaten your very foundation. But it's a foundation built on sand.
That's really funny considering you're about to tell me I have an enemy who is part of some medieval fairy tale you believe...
Right on schedule.
... and I hear your master guiding you even now.
I'm curious, just how many voices do you hear in your head?
2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
2Co 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
We can't force them to see. They have to want to see before it can be revealed to them.
I'm keeping my gob shut on this one as I don't want anyone to think I fit into any of the positions of those posting here.
Love the faith EmVeeT but convincing people who have no faith is very difficult. I find that even having faith is difficult as a believer because it only works when I am not a part of this World. Unbelievers struggle to know that their is a difference and believers struggle to explain this difference. When we suffer from the free will of people and Earthly systems that mock and condemn humanity they mock GD instead. When those who are a part of such systems that defy God or support such systems, believers become easy to hate and to criticize as well. Unfortunately, believers have to live in such systems as well but they do not have to support them or lie and build a false belief system to condone themselves or their faith. Simply put GD is not going to convince us of our faith when we live a lie. When people live a lie and success and defeat supports their faith in terms of Earthly reasons. They convince themselves that GD is not needed based on the results, but miss the heavenly views of true faith. Just as puzzling are the many believers who embrace the systems that are evil or destroy others and attempt to convince their victims. I am not saying that you our one of these people I am only explaining why it is hard for one to believe today and many believers fail to see this point. I do not attack the unbelievers with the truth but one must separate this World from the next first, in order to see God and understand how he works in our lives. One for instance can rob many in order to be rich legally and claim to be blessed and successful on Earth but be a total failure in heaven. Churches are filled with such people who try to convince me that being like them is the Godly thing to do and unbelievers mock them and their-selves at the same time. A pounding truth works for some and reading some of these messages posted I see many who mock themselves believing that they are mocking you or GD. Mock the World and understand that people have nothing of this World to place their faith in. Find Sanctuary, build it in your life and your home and everywhere you go.
I appreciate your comments.
You know, I really pondered the posting of this challenge, not because I doubt G'D, but because I knew, long before I did, what would happen. However, I'm not doing this for me. If I were, I would have stopped short of the posting.
Truly, believing in the atmosphere filled with animosity is no fun. Most of the time it's hard work. Being who I believe I should be, based on the creeds of my faith is constantly being challenged. I see the flaws. I make the mistakes. I'm surrounded by half a family who believes and half that doesn't. I make a very honest attempt at doing what I believe G'D WILLS for me, for my family, for the world I influence.
You're right though. There is so much impeding the progress. Posting something like this brings out the worst in people. The immediate reaction is one of offense.
To be honest, I was equally offended by the posts I read from several individuals who enjoy being base and blaming the woes of the world on individuals who want nothing more than to help them experience the joy of relationship with G'D a very limited few will ever experience.
Hmm. I know that what I just wrote will be construed as me placing myself in that margin of the limited few... I admit I will/do; however it is only after having experienced more pain and hardship, losses and struggles than I would even wish on a beast.
Did I make a mistake posting what I posted? I don't think so. I'm still TRUSTING G'D to make something out of this, as ONLY HE CAN. I'm still praying HE WILL MAKE HIS PRESENCE KNOWN, even if only to a very select few.
BLESSINGS to you, SanXuary, through THE EMBLEM and STANDARD we were BLOOD Purchased to appreciate! in YESHUA HAMASCIACH! Amen.
Evangelizing your religion IS offensive to people. You may not understand that, but you should start.
@Troubled, criminals take offense at police doing their job. Arsonists take offense at firefighters and investigators doing their job. Slackers at work take offense at bosses doing their job.
Why take offense? Because they have something to hide. They want their crimes to remain hidden in dark places. They don't like the light of awareness and truth.
The big question is: Why do those people cling to the dark so tightly?
Those who are fearful in the hull of a sinking ship resent those who attempt to rescue them. They lack trust and hide in their fear.
That isn't going to be seen as a valid analogy.
@Troubled, criminals take offense at police doing their job.
The religious are self appointed. There is no proof that what they push is law, truth or anything more than their opinion. To imply that one must abide by the opinions of another negates the idea of freedom of conscience
Arsonists take offense at firefighters and investigators doing their job.
That implies that only the religionists know truth and only their idea of truth matters. What makes the fact that some believe the fire to be nothing more than a mirage less valid than the thoughts of a religionist?
Slackers at work take offense at bosses doing their job. Why take offense?
One isn't slacker if they consider religionists wrong. They are the workers and the religionist is the slacker. Again, what gives the religionist the right to arbitrarily assume only their opinion can be right?
I think your argument falls down upon the fact that all of your assertions only hold water if there is no police force, fire brigade or bosses, which there are, because we as a society have robbers, fires and employees.
As to who holds those authorities, well whilst we can disagree with the authority exerted, we can refuse to recognise them if we wish, but if we do, and we are wrong, then we bear the consequence of our choice.
Once again we come to the fact that all of us are staking our temporal and eternal destiny on what we believe or refuse to believe.
I would disagree. I think the argument falls short, in your eyes, because you believe that there is ample information for someone to believe that, on a spiritual level, a physical police force was meant to be created. I don't beleive that. Freedom of conscience is the only manner by which anyone can find their truth, on a spiritual level; and I believe the individual that is at the heart of the religion you are part of made that clear.
The fact that you acknowledge the obvious; that there will be disagreement as to what truth is, validates the fact that freedom of conscience is the only fair way that anyone can search. And, you are right. We do bear the consequence of our choice. But, it is the choice of the individual.
To push religion ignores the fact that everyone has access to the same information, everyone is intelligent enough to process that information and come to their own conclusions and everyone should be given the respect to do that for themselves. It all boils down to the question of respect.
Unfortunately for you, that is not a fact.
Yes, you believe in spirits even though they have never been shown to exist, violate the laws of nature and are little more than superstitions, unfortunately for you.
You obviously have not been present in some of the deliverance sessions I have seen!
Though I have no doubt it would be fun to have you in one, you would be surprised how these things come out when they are called, very nasty some times, seen them throw people to the floor when they try to hold onto the hapless sucker that invited them in.
What does that have to do with claims of spirits?
Therer are none so blind as those who will not see.... that was a dumb question.
All you had to say was that you can't answer the question.
Ok wombat, the answer is simple, if spirits have been recognised in the presence of at least three other people, we can do more than claim spirits exist, we can communicate with them, they can exercise physical actions and they can 'speak' to you (albeit through the body they occupy).
This = personality, and speaking as someone who has dealt on both sides of the 'spirit world' I can assure you they are very real, and the only folk who cannot recognise them are those who are blinded by their spirit, or are spiritually dead themselves (i.e. their spirit has not be reawakened).
Unholy spirits will keep their subject dumb to their existence for a good reason, that being that should the wombat ever realise that someone else is controlling/influencing them, they stand the chance of being evicted.
When I first awakened to spiritual reality, I chose to go the unholy route, and invited ever more powerful dark spirits into my life. Made a good amount of cash from their guidance and really thought I had reached into some 'super' knowledge and power that I could use for my benefit.
Subsequent coming to faith in Christ unleashed some stiff resistance to my escape from darkness bid, which Christ dealt with and I was set free from the darkness.
Since then I have had occasion to help release other wombats caught in darkness, and seen those dark spirits fight to say in control, because if they are exposed and evicted, their master is not a forgiving entity.
Much as I enjoy you inanities TM, right here I am afraid you truly have no idea what you are up against.
But I live in hope, for where the light shines, darkness will be expelled.
Shameful example of how believers act, they start off their explanations by calling you a name. Is that not the epitome of childish behavior? Is there any reason we should give your words any credibility as a result?
Reporting you probably will have no effect on your behavior, either.
So, three religious zealots get together and suddenly there are spirits we can communicate with?
Unfortunately, your assurance is taken with much less than a grain of salt.
Well, at least my controlling unholy spirits don't influence me to act childish and name call. Seems though, the controlling holy spirits are influencing you.
So, you want to blame fantasy characters for your own lack of morals and ethics? Can't you just stand up, raise your head high and be accountable for your own actions?
You've seen them?
And yet, you are showing me in spades what I'm up against. Childish behavior, name calling and fantasies.
LOL! You're actually comparing the evangelizing of your religion to police, firefighters and bosses? <--- coveted double laughie
Yes, you believe we're some sort of low life hiding under a rock in fear for you to come along and save and regale us with stories of Jesus parting cars on a boulevard for you.
You probably also believe that we won't consider that insane.
I'm really confused here. Exactly who is forcing you to read these posts, ATM? If you're offended, you are more than welcome to simply go away.
As Shrek so eloquently put it, "you have the right to remain silent. What you lack is the the capacity."
Or put another way, speaking much does not compensate for saying little.
Wow. Just saw all this. Many have been busy, I see. To all my friends here at HubPages, please be careful if you truly do want to learn about Christianity. NEVER seek its true nature from a forum. Get up to your nearest Christian church (start with something moderate, I'd suggest) and talk to the priest or pastor there. Like anything in life, I prefer to talk face to face with someone who has the trust of a real parish or congregation, not some invisible internet voice. I tell everyone who will listen, be careful on the internet, be careful of the stuff you read on it. Go to one of God's known priests and hear for yourself the Good News. Just my advice, of course.
@Jason, good advice. But one might be just as careful with people in "real life" or "face-to-face."
Some ministers do not know what they are talking about. Some parrot scripture, but have a shallow interpretation of it.
One Christian I met at a party (at my brother's house) was thrilled to be saved, because his pastor said he could do anything and it wouldn't change his salvation.
He could lust after loose women, murder innocent children, and steal property from others and still go to Heaven? Would his heart really be following Christ, or would it merely be self-deception?
I seriously believe that he was more interested in feeling good about following Mammon (deceiving himself that he is following Christ) than in hearing the "real" Good News.
One of GODS own priests?The same priests that sodomize young boys?
One of GODS own priests?The same priests that sodomize young boys?
W'W, I just tried to read this thread..B't I am real'y hav'ng too much troub'e..
Do we have to believe in Orcs, Hobb'ts and Fa'ries too??
I'm up for any challenge - but I don't understand th's one!!! Is it going to be in next years Olymp'cs??
Oh well off to dance naked in the woods with some v'rgins....
The challenge was issued and accepted. Here is part of the OP.
The first part of the challenge is to read those three chapters of the bible that are mentioned. So far no one has done so, though some have accepted the challenge that was set forth.
I wonder if they will read or not.
That's the challenge? That's it? What's so challenging about reading scriptures, other than trying to get through it without vomiting?
Have you read them yet? The one who opened this thread mentioned reading them in her second or third post, I think.
I've read the scriptures, I've read the whole bible. I'm sure that others have as well. What is so hard to understand about "I don't buy it?" Why do you insist that others have to think like you.
I read the bible, I get lessons from it. However I don't have any desire to speak in tongues and start flopping around on floors. I don't feel like picketing funerals. I don't feel like telling every other person in the world they are wrong. And I certainly don't feel like posting random challenges with no real purpose on a writing forum.
Please understand, reading a bible doesn't mean you agree. Stop assuming that people are just ignorant of the Word. Many are as well read as you are and simply think that it's Bull-crap.
Although more people would be open to Christianity if the loudest of it's followers were certifiably insane, gullible, and pushy as hell. It's like clown day at the used car lot.
Nothing I wrote in the comment you replied to was directed at you. I can see that you were offended by what I said to ATM. Have you ever considered asking why you were offended?
No one said anything about speaking in tongues or flopping around on the floor. No one said anything about picketing funerals. How do you know it is just a random challenge? Do you know the mind of God? Are you so close to God that you need nothing else?
I used to read the Bible a long time before I gave my life to God. I didn't really understand any of it. The Bible is the revealed Word of God. It isn't understood by the mind of men. It is revealed by God's Spirit. If you understand it, then you have the spirit of God within you. If not, then God does not dwell with you.
I am glad to see that those whom you call brothers and sisters mean nothing to you. I am also glad that those who do not believe mean nothing to you as well. If you had any real idea of what happens to those who do not believe, you would be begging them to come to Jesus.
I think I will post some of Jesus' own words for you now.
Mark 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Three times the same quote was made by Jesus Himself. I think that would mean it is a very important quote. Since you stated earlier that you follow Jesus, tell us what these words mean so we will know also.
LMAO, it must be because I have Satan inside me. Or it could be because you are being disrespectful by insinuating that those who don't believe the same way as you "just aren't getting it". I can believe in Jesus without believing that everyone else is wrong. Hell, the Jewish don't even believe in Jesus and they've got a straight path to God's door.
Being a zealot is being a zealot. It doesn't matter how it manifests. I know it is just a random challenge because EmVeeT is certainly not acting in any official capacity of God. She is judging, ergo she is not acting in a Christian-like way. I think God would have sent a Christian that was beyond reproach to issue any personal challenges. I don't know the mind of God, you don't either. I am close enough to Jesus to be secure in my faith without being stupid about it. I don't need others to believe exactly as I do to confirm the "rightness" of my faith.
Once again, good for you, sorry about your poor reading comprehension. I read it, I understood it. I still don't think that my interpretation is the only interpretation. That would be judging... and Jesus said that is bad. But I do understand it, so by your definition I do indeed have the spirit in me. So, since we both have the spirit, then which of us is right? Oh yeah, if I don't agree with you, then I must not have "got it". For you are the only true Christian right? So Virgil, tell me please... and I want a real answer... Why is your interpretation more valid than mine? Why are you the true christian?
I understand, the air up their on your pedestal must be pretty thin. Let me explain this, I believe that other's should be treated the way I would like to be treated. My brothers and sisters in this thread must have forgotten that little commandment somewhere. You can not be humble while claiming to know everything. You cannot point out the mote in other's eyes while ignoring the log in your own. You cannot throw the first stone. Nor can you judge another master's servants. You, and the OP seem to have forgotten those words. I guess I should probably challenge my brothers and sisters to explain why those verses don't matter. After all, am I not my brother's keeper?
Hollie, I didn't know you felt that way. I'll keep you in mind if things between hubby and I don't work out *grins*. (That was a joke y'all, don't get your knickers in a twist)
And, I am not weird.(well, perhaps a little bit)Just respect a balanced view.
Everything you replied here is judgmental, the very thing you accuse me of. Now tell me again about do unto others.
If I see someone who is in error, should I let them alone? Should I help them to get things straight?
Isn't that what I'm doing? You have strayed from the path, I am trying to lead you back to the true meaning of the Word, my brother.
By the way, thanks for not answering any of my questions. It takes someone very strong in their faith to ignore any questions that they might not have answers to. I'm sure that Christ would much rather have followers that bleat like sheep rather than those who face questions and still believe.
As far as do unto others, I actually appreciate it when others let me know when I am being a pompous, self-righteous zealot. I don't want to walk around offending everyone who doesn't believe like me... I mean who would?
Helloo Melissa, Im back from my ban for being a naughty boy. How are you?
I'm good JWAH, glad to see you back. I missed you. Gotta be nicer hon, and learn how to insult non-directly. You still piss them off, but you don't get hit with the ban stick. It's actually more effective too , because then they realize they aren't clever enough to come back at you.
I think it was because some guy was deliberately following me on every forum and telling me that everything I said was wrong util I resorted to replying with "f**k off" in every post.
I did have patience for about an hour before he started to p*ss me off.
Why should I answer questions when you have all the answers? If I was a fish, should I have taken the bait?
You say you want to be warned if you are going the wrong way or that you have strayed. You are not helping anyone at all by posting in this thread saying no one has to believe in Jesus. In fact, you are doing the opposite.
You can keep throwing stones and beating your brothers and sisters if you want, but there will be a day when you will stand before God in judgment. What will be your excuse for all the words you have spoken against God's children?
Mat_12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
More of Jesus' Words of love.
I think you should demonstrate the bible to be entirely true if you are going to quote it at people and expect them to follow what it says.
Its only fair, no?
LOL, nice words of love... how about these?
1 Thessalonians 4:11
And to aspire to live quietly, and to mind your own affairs, and to work with your hands, as we instructed you.
Even a fool is thought wise if he keeps silent, and discerning if he holds his tongue.
1 Peter 4:15
But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
He who passes by and meddles in a quarrel not his own Is like one who takes a dog by the ears.
Now, brother, please explain how these verses DON'T apply to the situation at hand. Just wondering if you get "mind your own business and let people live the way they choose" out of this.
The OP was a challenge issued. I think you put your neck in here before I did and started berating the one who opened the thread. Tell me again who should mind their own business.
And you still haven't answered why your interpretations are more valid than mine.
I guess because they aren't. Read that again... Your interpretations are no more valid than mine. We are both Christians.
So what are YOU going to do when you stand in judgement. I'm ok with telling the big guy that I disagreed with a zealot who was driving people from the fold. Are you okay with telling him that you made all of his followers look bad?
How are you going to explain to him that you pushed your agenda in HIS name. How are you going to explain that YOU spoke against his follower (me?)
After all, once again, we are both Christians. I guess if you speak against me YOU are going to hell. I guess that means any Christian that ever disagrees with any other Christian is going to hell.
It ought to be asses and elbows down there.
You know, I always find it funny when two people of the same religion argue. I think it kind of highlights how people make up their own religion and believe what they want to believe.
Of course this is made very easy since the bible is so vague and contradictory. It can be believed to mean just about anything and for every verse that says one thing, there is guaranteed to be another that says the complete opposite.
LOL, did you get that?
I wouldn't say it too loud, you will be challenged.
Now, when everybody understands that and realizes that THEIR relationship with whatever deity they choose to worship (or none) is really their business only, think of how wonderful the world will be.
Don't you know that the Bible is not to be interpreted? I have no interpretation but only Revelation. I do not know it all but what I know I know.
2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. You say they do not have to repent or believe and that they do not need to hear the Word of God.
I have never spoken against you, unless you mean speaking against your words in this thread. I still contend that you beat your brothers and sisters. Now tell me, where is the fruit in that?
Okay, your revelations are no more valid than mine. My revelations were that the way to spread the message of Christ was to be charitable and kind (notice I didn't say nice). My revelations also include acceptance of all people and their rights to believe as they chose WITHOUT having someone else beliefs shoved down their throats. My revelations are that I am no more correct than anybody else on this planet nor is anyone else more correct than I. So, ONCE AGAIN, how are your revelations any more valid than mine? (I'm really not going to let that drop... the only two viable answers are "Because I know what God wants better than you" (for which you are going to hell) or "They are not" (In which you learn a valuable lesson about acceptance and tolerance... and maybe some humbleness) I am interested in which you choose. One will hurt your pride, the other will add one more black mark to your soul.
Now, what makes you think I haven't repented and that I don't believe? (Once again, the only answer here is "Because you don't believe the same way as me, so you must be doing something wrong") You also assume that anyone else that doesn't think the same way also hasn't repented and heard the word of God. I never said what I think anyone should do, as I am not God. You are not either, btw. So, if you would be so kind as to show me WHERE I said "You don't have to repent or hear the word of God", I would be much obliged.
(Then maybe you can show me where God said "Thou shalt go forth and issue silly challenges in MY name. Cause I bet he likes false prophets.)
I've not spoken against anyone in this thread either, just their actions. I'm sure all the fundies here are great people... when they aren't trying to rob others of their individuality, their opinions and their beliefs. And when they aren't embarrassing an entire religion for their own self-gratification and to make themselves feel like "messengers from God"
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/86889?p … ost1863669 (You are actually making me, who does believe, feel embarrassed to count you among Christians.)
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/86889?p … ost1863770 (brain washed idiots)
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/86889?p … ost1863770 (bludgeoning people and you are simply a screwed up repetitive version of Bible Google)
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/86889?p … ost1863803 (street corner preachers do harm)
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/86889?p … ost1863825 (I said your superior act was crap.)
Those links are to comments made by you and some quotes from each. These are from the first three pages of this thread. You think you know why the OP was posted and even say why (according to you) but you really don't know. It seems anyone who quotes a bible verse or a few are self-serving holier than thou believers to you. I imagine you would think the same of Jesus when he read from the book of Isaiah in the temple.
You mentioned forcing the Bible down the throats of people. No one has forced anything on anyone. That it only your opinion and the opinion of others. I haven't seen EmVeeT tackle anyone, hold a weapon to their head, pin them down and use a plunger to force anything down their throats.
I have seen what you wrote and the veiled insults you made. If you don't want the Word of God preached then by all means take a stand and fight against it and do not pretend to be a believer if you do so. If you are truly a believer, then start acting like one and uphold the Word of God and stop fighting trying to put out the light that your brothers and sisters have.
I really have nothing left to say to you at this time. Stop judging other believers. Examine your own self and see where you stand with God.
Then I'll assume the answer to my was "Because I know God's mind better than you do"
That's all you had to say
I am truly a believer and I am doing what my revelations say to do. If you were TRULY a believer, you would be doing the same thing.
My Christ is a kind, loving man that led by example, I have no idea who your Christ is. If you are truly a believer, then start acting like one and uphold the Word of God and stop fighting to put out the light that your brothers and sisters have.
I really have nothing left to say to you at this time, Virgil. Stop judging other believers. Examine your own self and see where you stand with God.
I would imagine that what is being referred to as needing 'repentance' i.e. a change of mind and direction. (as we are speaking about accurate usage of scripture in context) would be you statement:
"Hell, the Jewish don't even believe in Jesus and they've got a straight path to God's door."
Amplified Bible (AMP)
Jesus said to him, I am the Way and the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father except by (through) Me.
Would seem to dispute that.
It does dispute that. However, Deuteronomy 14:2 seems to agree with it...
"For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth."
As does Exodus 19:5
"Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:"
And Deuteronomy 7:7-8
"7 The LORD did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. 8 But it was because the LORD loved you and kept the oath he swore to your ancestors that he brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt."
...and rightly said (am very pro, and was raised in a Jewish home) however, the new covenant (contract) will always be superior to the old covenant (contract)if it's not, then we have all better convert to Judaism and get back to the law.
Thankfully I am already 'brisked' so at least that would be no problem!
Yep, a bris wouldn't be a problem for me either
I do find it interesting that Judaism is the only religion that all three major Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Islam, and of course Judaism) speak positively of in their religious texts. When all three agree on something, I usually take note of it.
The Torah points towards Christ, the new covenant in Christ finished the issue, and Islam is a political force posing as a religion.
"As far as do unto others, I actually appreciate it when others let me know when I am being a pompous, self-righteous zealot. I don't want to walk around offending everyone who doesn't believe like me... I mean who would?"
In that case, Melissa.. you're a pompous, self-righteous zealot. Or at least you have been in every single post of yours that I've read.
you're welcome for the heads up.
Actually, my understanding here is that the real 'challenge' is to:
Bow down before The Powerful Creator, laying down your transgressions before HIM. Repent of your evil doings, your slanderings, your slights. Ask forgiveness of HIM, in THE NAME of JESUS of Nazareth.
On a side note... I find it a little silly to refuse to spell out GOD or LORD, which are merely titles and have no particular significance in and of themself, yet to actually spell out YESHUA HAMASCIACH in its entirety. It seems to me that the jews tried to bury the full and specific name of the Lord by substituting titles. Therefore, modifying the titles is redundant and meaningless, but spelling out YESHUA HAMASCIACH would be abhorrent to jews. Personally, I believe the Lord's real name should be used whenever it glorifies Him, but I'm just sayin'.
I thought to address your comment about the way I write G'D. You may think it strange... and maybe it is peculiar. I didn't start off doing so; but after taking a Bachelor Degree in Messianic Bible Studies, I learned aspects of G'D's Character and Majesty that caused me to decide I needed to be more reverent. I began using that form of writing HIS NAME (only G'D and L'RD) that way, and have done so ever since.
It's become a natural inclination. When I don't, if I don't, I automatically go back and correct myself. You're right. G'D and L'RD are titles. Nothing more. I write HIS other Names the regular way...
This is one more peculiarity particular to me. I guess some could consider it a quirk. For me, it's showing respect... in a very small way, insignificant to anyone other than me and, knowing the intentions of my heart, HIM. ...
... just letting you know..'.
BLESSINGS to you, in THE NAME of THE MOST HIGH, MOST SOVEREIGN ROCK of SALVATION! Amen.
I understand. But my understanding is that the practice of not spelling out our Lord's name came from the Pharisees who deigned that speaking Yauah's name outloud was considered blasphemy. So it was carried over to not even spelling it, lest someone half asleep accidentally said His name while reading.
I respect your intent, and you certainly don't have to change your methods on my account, but it has seemed contradictory to me to use His real name while refusing to spell out a title.
On the other hand, you're a step ahead of 95% of 'christians' who don't even know that His true name isn't actually "God" or "Lord". And for that matter, it isn't "Jesus".
--Calling all atheists--
There is no longer any need to debate religion. Religion is on the decline all by itself. Do not kick a man when he's down. Although it may benefit you to vent your frustrations that the beliefs of others are ridiculous, sleep safely in the knowledge that those beliefs will cease to exist in the near future. Education has given rise to scientific belief.
Thank the Atom! We can all get back to doing something useful with our time like developing cures for diseases and contributing back to society! Atheists are sent by the devil, yes, all of those scientists keeping us fed and alive, those malicious beings!
For those who require stats & proof of the decline just read my hub
Have a nice day everyone!
"The world's largest atom smasher, designed as a portal to a new view of physics, has produced its first peek at the unexpected: bits of matter that don't mirror the behavior of their antimatter counterparts.
The discovery, if confirmed, could rewrite the known laws of particle physics and help explain why our universe is made mostly of matter and not antimatter." via Yahoo news. If science is always changing the theories they have, how truthful can you consider them to be?
"If the finding is borne out, it would be a big deal, because it would mean the reigning theory of particle physics, called the Standard Model, is incomplete. Currently the Standard Model does allow for some minor CP violation, but not at the level of 0.8 percent. To explain these results, scientists would have to alter their theory or add some new physics to the existing picture."
It would help tremendously if you took the time to understand what science was all about.
Science is nothing more than the study to understanding something that already exists. You like always missed the point sir.
sci·ence [s ənss]
1. study of physical world: the study of the physical and natural world and phenomena, especially by using systematic observation and experiment (often used before a noun)
2. branch of science: a particular area of study or knowledge of the physical world
the life sciences
3. systematic body of knowledge: a systematically organized body of knowledge about a particular subject
the behavioral sciences
4. something studied or performed methodically: an activity that is the object of careful study or that is carried out according to a developed method
the science of dressing for success
5. knowledge gained from science: the knowledge gained by
Hi Melissa.You are very right my dear,It,s either the thin air or being from a floater end of the gene pool.Bible thumping wack jobs like her have nothing else going on in life so they resort to disruption by being a fanatic.IT'S PROBALY THE ONLY WAY SHE CAN GET ANYONE TO PAY ATTENTION TO HER! However there is a site for her It's the retard site!Never pay attention to people like her in this world there just simply not worth it.Your friend LORD ENKI.
Certainly, arguing over who is the best true believer of Christ is the true way for any believer...
Guys (everyone), please, go and do something useful, write an interesting hub about hydroelectric dams or something, religion is dead, let the faithful die faithful for their children surely won't be x
Good advice, I will be more than happy to chat here in the RELIGIOUS FORUM without all the inane and snide remarks made by those who believe as you do.
I welcome your absence, please pass it on, reach as many secularists as you can and save yourselves the frustration of being here, unwanted, unappreciated and unsuccessful in your quest for a God free society.
Aguasilver I sense resentment in your statements, please refrain from negativity on hubpages
I agree with your feelings though, this should be a place for debate and not ad hominem. Though the "quest for a God free society" is not unsuccessful ^^ religion truly is on the decline to extinction.
Had what coming, I didn't receive any ad hominem?
if religion is dead what are you doing here ???
and what all of those ppl are posting aboute???
I'm here to try and stop people from wasting time arguing about something that is going to happen anyway.
Religion is dead, and by that I mean it's headed for extinction.
maybee a lots of religions are going for that
but islam is going e lot stornger and it is growing very very fast soo research aboute it
Not where it counts, mainly in poor, undeveloped, uneducated countries, where Christianity is also growing. In the developed countries where logic prevails, Islam is not growing stronger at all
Also factor out all of the people that believe in Islam out of fear and you've got a very poor effort indeed.
Need stats? Here: http://philanthropy2012.hubpages.com/hu … s-A-Sadist
you re statment is stupid pls look at the facts
if islam is stupid why ppl from e lot of uropian modern contrys even in america join it ?
2 you canot say that the arabice or aficain countrys are poor and uneducated that s raciste shame on you *
the 3 rd wold existe because of the uropian imperialisme racisme thise countrys suffer from racisme slavery culturale slavery and e lot of other craape
the 3 rd wold existe just because urpian country took from the centerys and years of evolution and natural develpement
the arabique world was e subject to e military ocupation of uropian countrys where thy defuse there igonnance and poverty and now thise countrys are just recuperating
i m educated and i m well learned and i m e muslim
1. I made an entire hub containing the facts. I am not using the media as back up for my statements, but statistics of the prevalence and change-rates of religion. In the developed countries, Islam, and all other religions are seeing a drastic and rapid decline into extinction. Australia, Austria, Canada, the Czech Republic, Finland, Ireland, the Netherlands, New Zealand and Switzerland are said to be 100% faithless within the next 30 years. in the Czech republic, 60% already are, in the Netherlands, 40%.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article … zz1e9cTloW
2. Yes I can say that some arabic and African countries are poor and uneducated. No it's not racist. It has nothing to do with the peoples' race in those countries but merely the area they were born in.
3. Yes, 3rd world countries exist undoubtedly as a result of developed countries behaving atrociously. I agree. This doesn't change the fact that as a result of poor education, government control & morals, 3rd world countries see the bulk of religious people concentrated in them. There are virtually no faithless in 3rd world countries. As the 3rd world countries recuperate, you will see that they also lose their religion. Religion is a part of poverty.
So as I said, all religions, including Islam, including Christianity, are headed for the bin.
hhh why islam is deffused in urope if you say that religion is dead
and i garantie it to you we will not let islam at all
islam will not be like cristianity at all
i will tell you one think as long that there is ppl who think and who listen ot the voice of the mind there will be islam
pls listen to thise it is the direct word of god in arabick but translated soo it s not like the originale
if you wont to stop the arabick voice just stop the script and tape play and injoy http://www.quranexplorer.com/quran/
you look educated soo dont be like the moste of ppl in here
where thy are guided by the media to serve politicale goals and research islam more
But Islam is a political system, not a continuation of the bible, Islam was invented to create a political system for what were polytheistic descendants of Shem, and to counter Christ.
As a social system for less developed nations it has worked well, but it's political statement that it seeks to bring all other systems into subjection to it's rule, makes it unacceptable to any modern western society.
Islam is a political system disguised as a religion.
I've never thought of Islam being a pseudo-religious political system before, but it appears to me to make sense.
to you maybee because you dont research islam enaught
the coran is not e continuation of the gospel or the torah or anny think like the gospel with the old testment it s e message that start from totally polythiste
the coran is e message of god to all huamnity to guide them in all aspect of life and political too and if you won oly to see the political aspect it youre choice
remeber that in the holy coran ther e is e dicsritoion of e huge changes and corruption that hapeens to the torah and the gospel
just remeber that tthe judjemnt will be on islam and the teaching of mohamed
I direct you to the final words of God ever spoken:
Revelations of Jesus Christ 22 13-21
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last (the Before all and the End of all).
Blessed (happy and [c]to be envied) are those who cleanse their garments, that they may have the authority and right to [approach] the tree of life and to enter through the gates into the city.
[But] without are the dogs and those who practice sorceries (magic arts) and impurity [the lewd, adulterers] and the murderers and idolaters and everyone who loves and deals in falsehood (untruth, error, deception, cheating).
I, Jesus, have sent My messenger (angel) to you to witness and to give you assurance of these things for the churches (assemblies). I am the Root (the Source) and the Offspring of David, the radiant and brilliant Morning Star.
The [Holy] Spirit and the bride (the church, the true Christians) say, Come! And let him who is listening say, Come! And let everyone come who is thirsty [who is painfully conscious of his need [d]of those things by which the soul is refreshed, supported, and strengthened]; and whoever [earnestly] desires to do it, let him come, take, appropriate, and drink the water of Life without cost.
I [personally solemnly] warn everyone who listens to the statements of the prophecy [the [e]predictions and the consolations and admonitions pertaining to them] in this book: If anyone shall add anything to them, God will add and lay upon him the plagues (the afflictions and the calamities) that are recorded and described in this book.
And if anyone cancels or takes away from the statements of the book of this prophecy [these predictions relating to Christ's kingdom and its speedy triumph, together with the consolations and admonitions or warnings pertaining to them], God will cancel and take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the city of holiness (purity and hallowedness), which are described and promised in this book.
He Who gives this warning and affirms and testifies to these things says, Yes (it is true). [Surely] I am coming quickly (swiftly, speedily). Amen (so let it be)! Yes, come, Lord Jesus!
The grace (blessing and favor) of the Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) be with all the saints (God's holy people, [h]those set apart for God, to be, as it were, exclusively His). Amen (so let it be)!
This negates any claim Islam can make.
The point is. One man didn't like the polytheism of Arabia and so he decided to create his own religion. When he was not accepted by the Jews he then fraudulently claimed to be the last prophet and went about saying he was bringing correction to the corrupted Jews and Christians. Smacks of sour grapes to me.
Islam is a political system disguised as a religion? How can you say such a thing without realising that they are all just that. When Bush says invading Iraq is what Jesus wants us to do, the entire country throw their hands up to the lord and pray for the safety of the American bullets that enter the innocent's bodies.
How many times do you hear the word "God" in political speeches?
What a joke.
Way before Bush (GW) was elected I stated that he was a NWO plant, using the name of Christ to get elected, and that his purpose in that Presidency was to discredit Christ and Christians and give ammunition to folks who were also (knowingly or not) part of the NWO agenda.
Christianity in it's biblical sense is NOT a political system, it is a faith system, and one that brings it's true followers to a close relationship with God through Christ.
I gave up expecting you or any secularist accepting or realising that, but it is fact anyway for believers and frankly, what secularists want to believe is equally up to them.
You may wish that Christ and His believers are a spent force, however Gideon shows clearly that God does not need numbers to achieve victory, and indeed nothing any believer will do will change the future history one jot or tittle.
It's written to happen, it will happen, and the only decision each person who lives or has lived needed to make was which side of the divide they chose to place their faith in.
We stake our eternal and temporal destiny on how we decide that.
May you be blessed with a revelation of the Living Christ.
So you see that by calling Islam a political system, you have to be saying that Christianity is too?
Not at all, and if you had read my post you would have seen that.
Christianity has no aspirations to FORCE the world to adhere to it's tenets, and to kill those who refuse, it has a very flexible attitude towards those of different or no faiths, and although I admit that in the Dark Ages the Catholic church was equal to Islam in it's political nature, Christianity is NOT a politcal force.
Professing Christians being in the majority in the USA may well shape policy, however the various secular lobby groups and power elites have in the last 50 years been also very instrumental in bring about some of the worse excesses of political correctness ever seen, and formed some of the most abhorrent laws that have been resultant in the decline of America as a respected power in world politics.
When America and Europe threw God out of the classroom, the rot set in and that is why you now have a generation who seek and succour iniquity over honour.
But I am constantly told that If I don't believe as you do, I will suffer eternal punishment? That's worse than killing? That's the worst threat you can make to a person. That is coercion beyond human limits.
Sounds like forcing to me.
All of those wars in the name of christianity. Sounds like forcing.
Going to far away lands and forcing them into christianity is also forcing.
You said yourself, even those poor tribes that haven't heard of Christianity are going to have it crammed down their throats just like everyone else.
Great, except by the time they convert, everyone else would have already lost interest.
just e simple cralification
is a political system disguised as a religion? if you say that than
islam is economicale system disguised as a religion?
islam is a social system disguised as a religion?
islam is a moral system disguised as a religion?
islam is e globale approach it does not exclude anny aspect of human life it e complete guidance to all humanity to bring him hapiness and orgainse the life of the humain bieng in all the aspect
Precisely, a political system for governing human behaviour according to Islamic standards and traditions, which are mostly in opposition to most other religious and secular thoughts on this earth.
With the added bonus that if anyone disagrees with your policies, you kill them.
A surefire winner in political sense, rather like Fascism under the Nazis or Communism under Stalin, in fact, just another lot of political demagogues attempting to take over the world.
Your political party offers no salvation, no guarantees, no direct conversing with God and no liberty in the faith, it is NOT a religion at all, it is a fascist political party.
God requires that we CHOOSE to be with Him, not forced by birth to conform to stone age laws set by a murderous, lying political demagogue, who spotted a rare opportunity to start a fascist regime hidden in biblical terminology..
To everyone else, thank you for your kind words He's really not upsetting me though. I'm pretty secure in my beliefs.
Captain Redbeard; it's really quite simple, sir: just because Einstein's theory of relativity burst onto the scene, doesn't mean the results of Newtonian physics are invalidated! After all, your car still works, right? The vehicle wasn't just conjured up by magic - and I am not being flippant; at least not purposely so - it took an understanding of Newtonian physics to build it. The same goes for the microwave, the space-shuttle, the polio vaccine; whatever you like. The proof is in the pudding, as they say. Someday, as we learn more about the universe, special relativity will almost certainly be modified; yet, how can one say it was "wrong" when the only way we could have put satellites in earth-orbit was with an understanding of it? Modification of physical theory does not invalidate it; it just gives us a greater understanding and the ability to do more things. This presents an unwilling juxtaposition to, say, religion or other tenet of mysticism, whether you call it Buddhism or parapsychology, most of which overwhelmingly claim to know everything, and are tailor-made to twist definitions (and often, usurp them entirely) in order to regain its every-slipping foothold on our primitive minds (though a small fraction of these minds get less so with every passing moment).
It is simply absurd - you are not absurd, obviously, since you are a stranger to me - to question the validity or even the veracity of scientific endeavor, and then happily get on an airplane or open the refrigerator that allows you pursue something else in life other than spending the entirety of the day hunting and gathering food (not that there's anything wrong with the latter!). Science works; and it isn't restricted to astrophysics or biology or chemistry; it is a way of thinking that understands the primacy of theories that are not only explanatory; but also, predictive. And that, just because you hang around a group of people different from the ones around which you grew up, doesn't change any of its fundamental assertions. Physics is the same in China, Germany and North Korea (well maybe not the last actually;-)) as it is here, unlike any other so-called body of knowledge.
The simplest realization really is that just because a new atom-smasher unveils a heretofore unkown supersymmetric particle, the chair you are sitting on doesn't suddenly collapse, or your watch turn into a firearm. As such, science endows us with the only objective truth - although I must submit, not necessarily the most important ones. That can vary from person to person.
You prove my point. Look, electricity wasn't invented, it was discovered. The law of aerodynamics wasn't constructed, it was discovered and studied, the law of gravity doesn’t take away from the laws of aerodynamics. They exist together.
My point is this, we will never have all the answers. Ever. The more we search for knowledge the more we loose ourselves. With the birth of harnessing the power of the Atom, we haven't bettered mankind, we have in fact made mankind more dangerous.
Man in his tireless quest for supreme power has invent the diseases like Lyme Disease. We put the leading scientist to work for us after Nazi Germany was taken down. We pardoned these men who sought nothing more than perfecting the way to kill and gave them jobs, in the name of science. What I am saying is the advancement of science is not the saving grace. It will not better mankind, it never has.
I understand the horrible things done in the name of God and Allah. I understand the millions that have been put to death because of crazy beliefs that "The gods or God or Allah" told them to murder, starve or enslave. But no matter how many religions come and go, no matter how many people pervert the message of the God I follow, there will be nothing that can ever take the place of a faith based on the idea that the only purpose in life is to love your neighbor as yourself. No science, no book, no person will ever be able to say anything to argue the fact that if people followed this one thing, to live by love we would be better off. Love being a truth defined by a God that says it is selfless, laying down your life for your brother. Love that acts and doesn't just speak but acts out on behave of those who need love, water, food, shelter. The bible says you will know those who follow Christ by their love for one another. So those Christians you find hating, and judging and condemning.....well, I guess their not living the definition of what love is. Are they?
I don't want to argue, I just wanted to speak my peace. Science has never proven that God doesn't exist. I believe in fact that science time and time again proves him true. In every manner.
I suppose everyone is entitled to their beliefs; however incompatible they are with the objective world, and indistinguishable they are from merely saying "I believe this true" (never mind that the actual truth doesn't require anyone's belief). As long as you're not hurting anyone, carry on...
What has science proven that Faith hasn't?
Now let's not get silly.
Faith didn't make the computer you are typing on. Science did.
Science didn't create love and compassion, for many faith did.
Neither is inherently bad, nor are they incompatible.
Faith absolutley made this computer. As did the house I sit in and the Sears tower! How can you say, "I will do this, I will do that" without faith? You play simple board games because you have faith you will win. Everything you do, no matter the person, does it because they have faith.
Now, if you want to get into the nitty gritty as my buddy Nacho Libre says, show me one fact that bible doesnt support. Actually I am starting a new topic for this. Give me a second.
Oh, my... Neurons of concern are beginning to flicker in my mind... I mean really?
Captain Redbeard, people play games with the faith that they will win, but that's because they Know there is a chance they could based on evidence of the past.
Religion is founded on Blind Faith.
That's the same as saying religion is founded on nothing.
In any other case where someone would so blindly follow something, it would be called "insanity" and one would be given the status of "insane"
False, you not being someone who is of faith can't say you know why people follow God now can you?
False. My being a human who can read statistics and words can know why people follow God now can't I ?
False, by that logic only you can observe and so are in the exact same position as me
Since your views aren't in everyone else, you have exactly the same way of finding out other people's views. Being faithful doesn't give you the ability to mind read other faithful people's minds
"With the birth of harnessing the power of the Atom, we haven't bettered mankind"
"What I am saying is the advancement of science is not the saving grace."
That had better be a joke. Capitain TrollBeard.
Without science humanity would not have existed. Rubbing two twigs together to make fire is science. Crafting a wheel is science. Hygiene, Medicine is science. Houses is science.
Are you saying that humanity is better off without Wheels, Fire, Hygiene, Medicine and housing?
This is why religion is dying in the modern world.
And if it's not a joke what are you going to do? You don't even understand the definition of what you have named yourself. First definition of the word Philanthropy is, "1. desire to benefit humanity: a desire to improve the material, social, and spiritual welfare of humanity, especially through charitable activities" Yet you mock spiritual welfare and riducual your fellow man.
Just so we are clear, humanity has nothing to do with science. Look up the words you want to use before you use them if you want to be taken seriously.
Crafting is not science, crafting is an action not a study. Hygiene is not science, it's an instinct. Medicine is science, yay you got one. "Houses" is not a word..........
What I am saying is that the Atom and the study of things that don't matter while the things that do matter like food, water and shelter for our fellow man is ruining humanity. that you can thank science for.
You show me how it is dying. You yourself belong to the church of facts and evidence and are intollerant of anyone who thinks or believes different from you. How can you say you are any better, through your own actions you have put yourself higher then those around you.
I am not mocking spirituality, only religion. And I am not mocking but teaching my fellow man, out of altruism, I might add.
Humanity is BUILT on science. Without science we would not have survived. Crafting is science. Crafting: an activity involving skill in making things by hand. The fact that you need to know how to craft something in the first place means you need to have an understanding of it's physical properties. The science, behind that object. You cannot craft anything without understanding the basic science behind how to do it
Now as for the following statements:
"Hygiene is not science"
1. the branch of medical science that studies health and its preservation; hygiene.
'"Houses" is not a word..........'
"Houses" is in fact a word. It is the plural form of the noun "house" which is also a word. (this was very funny to read)
Furthermore, architecture is the science associated with creating housing*
So actually I "got 5" and you "got 0".
All science is useful. The knowledge of the atom has allowed us electricity for billions of people. Who are you, an unscientific man to say when one piece of information is more useful to society than others.
Also, I imagine that you didn't wish to say that food shelter etc was "ruining humanity"
Show you how it is dying? Look at any stats (there are lot's on my hub) of religious populations in the modern world.
"The Church of facts" is not a religion. Statements like these can only mean you're trolling? I am not religious and I am intolerant to those who are incorrect. Correctness being based on empirical evidence/logic and not somebody's word.
I have not put myself higher than those around me, you have put yourself lower by not accepting the fact that religion is dying.
Being that I am almost 7 foot tall means that I have been called a lot of things but a troll is not one of them. I don't really understand the reference either. That's twice you have called me a troll. How is that showing humility?
Second, Does the dug beetle understand math in order to roll poo? Does an infant understand gravity, or balance with stacking blocks? Does a bird calculate the weight or structure integrity of it's nest? Does a funnel web spider make a blue print before building it's web? Does the dog or cat understand the importance of cleaning itself? These creatures do because it's what they know to do. They don't have to understand the whys.
Look I can except that people do not believe the same things and that over time practices that make sense can become dogmatic tradition but the facts are this, you are in a Religious and Philosophy forum trying to convince people who believe that we are a dying breed. If you study history the one thing that should be more clear than anything else is that humans will always worship something.
Who I am is a American who is sick of seeing his tax dollars go to programs that are fruitless and have no reason for being. Last year 5 schools in my city closed due to lack of funds. My tax dollars could have been going to that. Streets are crumbling all around my neighborhood and the drop out rate/teen pregnancy/social services (food stamps, welfare, wic) has tapped my state dry! No I didn't mean to say food and shelter was ruining humanity. I have Lupus and my fingers have started to curl up which makes it hard to just write and submit anything I say. I have to edit everything I write and sometimes I mess up without realizing it.
Religion, "definition 3. personal beliefs or values: a set of strongly-held beliefs, values, and attitudes that somebody lives by" Sounds like you.
Clever phrases like your last one are what make you look like you ridicule your fellow man
'Troll' is an internet term for someone who says things specifically to wind people up and not because they think it could benefit anyone or indeed because they believe in it themselves. The verb is "to troll" and "trolling" is the present participle.
1. The science that deals with the promotion and preservation of health. Also called hygienics.
You said hygiene is not a science. It is. You were wrong.
(Bringing up other meanings of hygiene has no weight to the fact that in at least one sense of the word, it is science)
In the Czech Republic, 60% are already non theists. 40% in the Netherlands. Read my hub for more information about the dramatic decrease in religious populations. People will believe in something, but something that is founded on reason this time.
As far as I am aware, America has contributed a very large amount to science through it's tax dollars. What I mean by that is, the things you are paying for is the creation of new vaccines that save lives, the betterment of school education etc.
However, If what you mean is you don't want to be paying for things like Space Flight programs and weaponry science costing billions of £/$ when there is poverty back down here on Earth, then I agree with you entirely. But that is not to say that studying that science is bad, but that there are better things to be spending time & money on. Better sciences, like agriculture (they are creating sky-rise farms!), housing (to accommodate the poor better) and education. Then perhaps we can move on to conquering other planets etc.
As for definition 3 of religion. I apologise but I had never heard of that definition (and I am trusting you that you didn't just make it up :L). By "religion is dying" I meant the official religions based on deities are dying out. Not people's strong beliefs about morals (which I thought was called philosophical view/moral theory?)
I do not intend to ridicule you, but I do intend to emphasise the ludicrousness of your statements.
I didn't know about the trolling term that's good. Look I never intended to wind anyone up. Sorry if I did that to you.
I do not buy that my tax dollars go to the betterment of man when the fools that run the world are in bed with the money makers keeping the people in the dirt. For the first time in American history we will be facing jail time/fines up to $5000 if we don't possess healthcare. That is wrong and oppression. For the government to force it's people to buy a commercial product is wrong and against everything that America is supposed to stand for.
I got the definition from my dictionary attached to word document program on my computer. It's what I use to fix the errors in my typing.
As far as the hygiene topic goes, you want to use one definition that man has made but I am trying to point out the oldest forms of what "man" defines. hygiene is not man made or science designed. We may have added to the principle by discovering it's better to brush your teeth than to let them rot out, floss in addition to brushing so on and so forth by grooming yourself in the aspect of keeping clean or healthy has always been around. From the time the first primate picked a flea from its furry back. Science has always and always will just define what already was.
Belief has always been founded on reason but reason always changes doesn’t it? I find it interesting that for the past two thousand years the teachings have Christ haven't just survived but flourished! Time changes, kingdoms have risen and fallen but the message of Christ to love you neighbor as yourself is still strong and even founded the western world! Time was split in two because of this man, not only was a faith based religion born because of him, he also influenced two other major religions. My point is this. Science will always find something that is interesting. Water on mars, a new way to build a mechanical valve, new ways to build a stronger structure but what it will never be able to do is create life. Never has and never will. We can clone life from life but create it from scratch, we haven't been able to do and will not be able to do. Even though through the scientific studies that have given us the answers to what it takes to create life, we have never been able to do it.
I will leave with this since I seem to just be causing trouble, I simply believe that Christ is the way the truth and the light. No man goes to the father except through him. You don't have to believe that, you don't even have to hear it! That's the great thing, I believe that he gave us all the free will to choose what we want to do with our lives and the opportunity to learn about him if we so choose to. pretty fair to me.
"Science has always and always will just define what already was"
so invention isn't real?
It's a shame about the extremes of capitalism, I agree, it needs changing. It's very unfair what is happening and the two spectrums of wealth in the world. This is political however, it hasn't much to do with science.
I'm sorry to break it to you, we have already created life out of synthetic materials: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9005023/ns/ … shYRM2Ia9I
So "never has and never will" isn't quite correct ^^
The science is very promising for bettering society.
Please don't be so adamant about what science hasn't done yet, the progress we're making is so rapid that a true statement today by tomorrow may not stand ^^
And yes that's very fair, it's a shame that not all religious people take your free-choice view. With choice however, less & less people take religion because you can prove and see science but you can only feel that God is there.
Dearest Captain Redbeard,
Please don't feel that you're commentary is unimportant. The fact is, one of the few remaining freedoms in the Western world, one that is fast becoming a challenge to keep, is the freedom of speech. Some may not agree with a particular point, but up until this point in time, everyone is free to share their heart, their mind, their viewpoint.
I've been extremely busy these last few days, I work during the day, and have been booked to sing Friday, Saturday and Sunday... so I haven't visited this page, other than to read a few posts here and there... and to add another Hub to my Pages... but I just read this post, and attaching what you've just shared with what I briefly read relating to science or politics up to this point, your input has value!
We, as Believers, cannot decide to pull out of a debate because of the way others feel about us, as long as THE HOLY SPIRIT is imparting HIS Wisdom in us. If we begin to feel that our responses are coming from the flesh, then perhaps it is time to draw back, but I don't consider that to be true at this point. I have not yet read what Philanthropy2012 has responded... I have to run out of the house right now, but I will be back to give that viewpoint fair attention as well.
The truth is the truth. Some may deny it. Some may see things differently, but in the end, truth is immutable. Truth doesn't change dependent on humanity. Therefore, if you are stating the truth you know, and are certain that your heart is yearning to Glorify G'D, please don't consider you are causing trouble. Everyone is welcome to share their heart. That is what G'D Gives us. Some die for the privilege. Let's not give the opportunity up because we consider we're stirring irritations. That's what debates do.
BLESSINGS to you, in THE NAME of our MOST HIGH, LOVING, MERCIFUL and WISE G'D, through YESHUA, THE TRUTH, THE LIFE, THE WAY! Amen.
I'm only backing out because appearantly my point is going over his head and he feels I am only trying to cause trouble. I'm not backing out because I am afraid I have offended anyone. Besides I don't like to waste what little energy I have. The great thing about Hub Pages is that you only have to post once and it's echoed and respoken to everyone who visits the thread long after I have moved on.
Nuthn' but love sis. See you on the other side if I don't run into you again on here.
"What I am saying is the advancement of science is not the saving grace"
Is what has supposedly gone over my head? I think not! I merely disagree with this entirely considering the fact that science is the only thing keeping us alive.
Are you not going to address the fact that life has already been created via science?
If not, it was nice talking and I wish you the best.
I see that you're an individual who trusts highly in scientific and other proofs. That isn't a bad thing. However, apart from the chemistry I engage in everyday, and biological considerations I study as part of the female gender, for personal reasons, I would never call myself expert in the greater scope of science (except in a very limited manifestation).
However, I found something pertaining to "proofs" that you may find interesting... this isn't necessarily something you will accept, but at least check it out (if you don't mind).
Professor Emeritus of Science at Westmont College, Peter Stoner... is a gentleman who decided to do a particular study. I Googled and the link I am posting below is one that reflects that information.
This page provides mathematical evidence and a few other notes of interest. I hope you will find the information given here a challenge to your 'faith' is dead theory., especially considering the Pharisees were told not to worry to much about JESUS, in HIS day, because the trend to follow HIM was sure to pass away, just as the fuss over several other 'prophets' died away with the passing of time. That was over 2000 years ago. I wonder if some are still waiting to see that fantasy come true?
BLESSINGS to you in THE MATCHLESS NAME of JESUS of Nazareth! G'D of Creation, MASTER and MAKER of The Universe! Amen.
Okay I've just read it, It's about the fact that a lot of things were prophesied to happen about Jesus that came true. Am I to take it that all of these prophecies were in the Bible?
The thing about the Bible is that it was written by people, and people lie. Especially when they know this book is going to be used to control humanity to do their bidding. It's not a source of evidence.
The Bible is indeed full of lies, what it says the age of the Universe is and how life comes about for example greatly contradicts what it actually is. So how can we possibly believe any dates, quotes or anything else that the Bible says?
"Obviously, the probability that 456 prophecies would be fulfilled in one man by chance is vastly small" I agree. What's more mathematically likely is somebody wrote all of these "prophecies" into the Bible after they had all happened.
It might be a tough pill to swallow, but I think most atheists will take the notion of what is written in the Bible as proof of what actually happened in history as seriously as the Harry Potter series being thought of as historical documents.
Here is a source I used concerning the age of the Universe and the biblical understanding of it.
Errm, So someone went back in time then to doctor the Jewish written books of the bible, which have source proofs all over the place and are known as a verbal tradition so well that they are recited in shul every day and memorised by all young men. Then they time traveller forward and changed the scribes work in all the monastery's, each word copied exactly and checked to ensure that there were no variations.
Yes, your idea really has merit.
You said: Okay I've just read it, It's about the fact that a lot of things were prophesied to happen about Jesus that came true. Am I to take it that all of these prophecies were in the Bible?
The answer is 'yes'. These prophecies and more are ALL in The Bible.
You said: The thing about the Bible is that it was written by people, and people lie. Especially when they know this book is going to be used to control humanity to do their bidding. It's not a source of evidence.
The Bible was written by people. True. But what makes it the infallible Word of G'D, is that it was Divinely Inspired. Essentially, G'D DIctated Scripture to those HE Chose to Write for HIM. If this was an ordinary book it could not have withstood the tests of time, scrutiny of countless skeptics, historians, archeologists, etc.,
Nobody writing the segments of [i]what we know as The Bible today knew it was going to be put together as it is, except G'D Himself, because HE Orchestrated that to fulfill HIS Purpose.
This Book is extraordinary because it was written 66 separate authors spanning a period of over 2000 years... from 'The Beginning' to John the Beloved, who is believed to have died circa 100 A.D. of natural causes. This Book is even more extraordinary when you consider the men didn't know one another, had no mechanism of organizing a theme, or a Divine Purpose, came from different backgrounds, held different positions in society, and didn't have a clue their writings would influence mankind for centuries after they etched the words onto whatever recordable medium was available to them.
You said: The Bible is indeed full of lies, what it says the age of the Universe is and how life comes about for example greatly contradicts what it actually is. So how can we possibly believe any dates, quotes or anything else that the Bible says?
What the Bible says about the age of the Universe? What does it say??? I mean, can you prove to me there is a date there somewhere? All it says that I am aware of, and I've read it over and over, is: "In the beginning G'D..."
Regarding how life came about? What does science have that is any more absolute? Everything science offers as to the origins of man are theory.
True or false? There is no absolute proof at all.
For example: the theory of evolution has never been ABSOLUTELY PROVEN... the only thing science repeatedly presumes to present as a plausible amalgamating link is the theory that there are stages of life that can be connected by virtue of similarity, not absolute distinction.
If I were a scientist, I would place my money of the theory that all the presumed links bridging the amoeba to mankind are not actual links in a chain, but various life forms that have existed over the millennia and became extinct over the same timeframe.
As for dates, astronomy and science have been trying to offset the dates given in The Bible for centuries now. Problem is: they cannot do so. They can only guesstimate. That's what you're doing by saying what you're saying to me. You can't prove what you just said. I never claimed to prove what I've said... because my 'faith' is personal. My proofs are personal.
You said: What's more mathematically likely is somebody wrote all of these "prophecies" into the Bible after they had all happened.
Skeptics have been trying to prove this notion about the Book of Daniel alone for centuries unsuccessfully... one Book of sixty-six. What does that tell you?
You said: It might be a tough pill to swallow, but I think most atheists will take the notion of what is written in the Bible as proof of what actually happened in history as seriously as the Harry Potter series being thought of as historical documents.
None of this is a tough pill for me to swallow. See, I've been studying to find the truth out for myself for over three decades. Not everything I've unearthed can be proven to point to G'D, since there are some aspects of The Bible, G'D and JESUS that none can prove or disprove. However, when I put those same investigational proofs beside my experiential knowledge, everything changes. What is unprovable to those who don't want to know, becomes irrefutable to those who just want the truth.
Dearest Sir, (I'm assuming you are a Sir...)
I will check out your source, just as you so considerately checked out mine. However, here is the difference: even if what I read there has a measure of plausibility in it, when I place the probabilities next to my experience, the revelations G'D Himself has granted me, and my desire to know HIM in spirit and in truth, which transcends the mechanisms of man... unless your body of evidence is 100% proven, I won't believe it.
What I will do is look for evidence refuting it... or analyze it, to find the schisms. If there are none, then I will continue looking until either my faith is justified by the pronouncements or until your proofs become as infallible as my G'D.
Don't get me wrong... I'm not saying my faith is impenetrable. I'm saying my faith can take a lot of pounding. I have already had to make the choice to dig deeper than I ever considered necessary, because I am surrounded by many religious people, who think they know so much; even though they've never bothered to examine or search out the truth.
I'm saying G'D IS G'D. HE Remains G'D... HE Requests that we TRUST HIM by faith; and when/if we do, HE Substantiates it for us, individually, based on our needs, complexities and measure of understanding... when we don't... we shut the door on HIM... and HE Politely Withdraws.
That is why each individual must choose for him/herself.
BLESSINGS to you, in THE NAME of THE SOVEREIGN G'D! Amen.
First of all, prove to me that all Bibles were not written in the year 1000 CE by people who wished to control humanity. It wouldn't have been that hard. I could write a book right now and tell you that it was written 5000 years ago. I will offer you proof that it was written 5000 years ago by showing you that the book I wrote says in it "this book was written 5000 years ago". Then I can tell you that my house was a temple for this book 3000 years ago and that my house is also proof of this book being written 5000 years ago.
More importantly, Jesus didn't even live up to his prophecies:
"What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:
A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world—on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9)"
Jesus didn't do any of this. So if the Bible was written by a divine creator and not just people pretending that they were controlled by God when they wrote it, all of this would have already happened...
Btw Emveet, Evolution is fact. The process by which it works is Fact. The only thing in debate is exactly how and where it occurred, there are many theories, but not whether it did or not.
If you need proof you can just look at antibiotics and a colony of bacteria, some will survive due to mutations and then reproduce to make more. Evolution is irrefutable, and I would urge you to find any evidence that it is not.
I disagree. There are countless University Press books debating the veracity of Darwinism. Evolution is not a fact, it is an indoctrination in naturalism. However, that is quite another subject. I don't have to prove my view to you, just as you don't have to prove your view to me.
You said: First of all, prove to me that all Bibles were not written in the year 1000 CE by people who wished to control humanity. It wouldn't have been that hard. I could write a book right now and tell you that it was written 5000 years ago. I will offer you proof that it was written 5000 years ago by showing you that the book I wrote says in it "this book was written 5000 years ago". Then I can tell you that my house was a temple for this book 3000 years ago and that my house is also proof of this book being written 5000 years ago.
The problem with this is, you would have to learn Ancient Aramaic, which was a Semitic language, spoken in the land of Ur, the place Abraham came from. Now, from the land we (Biblical students) call Babylon, there exists today, a document attributed to a man named Hammurabi. This individual is thought to have lived about 300 years before Moses. Thing is, the document is etched in stone and is dated circa 1792-1750 B. C..
So, if you think you'd like to publish something this authentic, I suggest you buy some carving tools and a very ancient slab of stone.
Biblical documents were very meticulously preserved as well. Once they had been completely copied, by scribes who spent their entire manually transmitting the script from older scrolls to newer ones, they were discarded in a formal ceremony. That is why so many have been archaeologically unearthed over the centuries.
As for the "JESUS living up to the prophecies pertaining to HIM", all those you mentioned (except the gathering of the Jews to Israel, which has already begun) are associated to HIS Second Advent to the earth, not HIS First Advent, again, another subject entirely. We could get into it, but truly, these topics have nothing to do with this "Challenge".
The point is, you will continue researching all those areas of study that you consider enforce your stance... I have and will continue to pursue research the areas of Biblical Study that will compliment, counter, or comprehensively explore details I am still investigating.
You're obviously a very intelligent individual. I don't assume any less. However, our viewpoint platforms have no point of congruency, nor are they even parallel. They are as far as the East is from the West... not as the world, in a sphere, but as the Universe, in a straight line.
Your view depends on what man can expostulate and prove. Mine depends on what G'D Can Reveal to me, in stages, as I prepare to embrace or challenge HIS Wisdom. I won't always understand what HE so Generously Attempts to draw me toward, but I learn so much as I journey in that direction. And, even when I detour, I learn; because in the end, when I veer back, in order to figure out where I missed the turn, HE's There to Lead me forward.
You're moving forward on your own, using your own faculties, using resources, research and reasoning that depends on humankind. I've realized I will never achieve the goal of knowing about all the things I crave to know/discover... so I've invited G'D to Lead me into streams of knowledge that enhance my day to day life, grant me strengths in practical applications and move me into a more resolute position, one that will allow me to build a bungalow on a bungalow base, not a high rise where someone dug out the foundations for a swimming pool.
My analogy here may be weak, but I consider we've worn out our debate. You will continue to believe what you believe... I will continue to pursue my faith.
I appreciate your comments. I've enjoyed discussing these brief issue tangents with you... let's agree to disagree now. I think, unless we're prepared to write books on our belief system structures, the direction of the original subject has been long lost...
BLESSINGS to you, In THE NAME of THE LAMB of G'D, Whom I call KING, Whom I pray one day you may meet! In YESHUA HAMASCIACH! Amen.
"The meaning of "Darwinism" has changed over time, and varies depending on who is using the term. In the United States, the term "Darwinism" is often used by creationists as a pejorative term in reference to beliefs such as atheistic naturalism, but in the United Kingdom the term has no negative connotations, being freely used as a short hand for the body of theory dealing with evolution, and in particular, evolution by natural selection." ~~ wiki
Based on the above description, we can assume you are using the creationists pejorative term.
If not, then there are few if any books debating the veracity of natural selection, which is indeed a fact.
True, you are free to deny reality and facts as your view.
And as far as reality is from fantasy.
Giving up on thinking and understanding to resort to faith to lead your life does not make your faith valid, especially when you attempt to deny reality by saying things like evolution is not fact.
You do yourself a great disservice by doing so.
Dearest Troubled Man and Philanthropy2012,
I am not expert enough in the fields of Evolutionary Science to argue vehemently against the subject. However, this is my platform view.
Evolution says man developed from a(n) one celled organism, all the way to ape, all the way to man. This causes humanity to see mankind as a species that enhances progressively in (per)mutations that make him better all the time.
I see mankind as having been Created by G'D, therefore being at his utmost perfection at Creation, and having digressed progressively over time.
Now, as I said already, I am a poor sounding board when it comes to the Scientific structures that would definitely defend my stance. However, there are individuals who are expertly versed in the profound study, countering the theories of evolution (Darwinism) with the facts they personally have unearthed. Here are a few of their names, and titles of the books they have written describing the nature of their work, the platforms they have taken and even (for some of them) the atheism they left behind as a result of their newfound proofs.
"Icons of Evolution: Science or Myth? Why Much of What We Teach About Evolution Is Wrong " by Jonathan Wells.
"Signature In The Cell: DNA And The Evidence For Intelligent Design" by
"The Devil's Delusion: Atheism and Its Scientific Pretensions" by David Berlinski
"There Is A God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind" Antony Flew
"The Language Of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence For Belief" by Francis S. Collins
"Defeating Darwinism by Opening Minds" by Phillip E. Johnson.
There are countless others as well.
However, these are ones I know. If you like you can read them for yourself and then consider there may just be an alternative!
BLESSINGS to you both, Gentlemen. May G'D'S Creative Design become an option you decide to investigate, for your Eternal benefit, for HIS NAME's Sake, through YESHUA, THE RISEN SON! Amen.
You show no understanding of evolution whatsoever let alone being any kind of non-expert. It's not surprising though, few believers know anything about evolution.
LOL! Hilarious! They are nothing but Discovery Institute Intelligent Design advocates which is just another form of creationism.
They've had their articles on ID pulled from peer review journals for not having any credible scientific evidence to support their ridiculous assertions.
They are creationists, which is not an alternative. Sorry to burst your bubble.
When trying to have a scientific debate it would be in your benefit to do your research from academic institutions. It would also help you immensely to read the books you post. All of them except Collins are pariahs in the scientific community. Collins was a poor choice. If you read his book you will find his alot of his beliefs are contradictory to much of what you believe.
Dearest Troubled Man,
I have enjoyed my interaction with Philanthropy2012 because he tries to validate his points, making an attempt to produce some sort of viable evidence for some of his statements, just as I do mine.
I have yet to read anything but your spouting off. When it comes to evidence supporting your claims you fall short.
You continuously drip out whatever statements, in bits and pieces, that you think hilarious, for some reason or other.
Unfortunately, whatever I first thought about attempting to actually discuss an issue with you has been blown out of the water. Nothing remains but to consider any point with you "moot", in other words, "of no significance".
I leave you in the Care of THE KING of ALL GLORY, MAJESTY and REVERENCE, YESHUA HAMASCIACH, BEGINNING and ENDING, Amen.
LOL! If you actually knew the first thing about evidence, you might have a valid point. However, by providing authors who are promoters of Intelligent Design who have had their articles revoked from peer review due to lack of any evidence whatsoever would show that in spades.
Your statements are hilarious, that is the reason.
Yes, I know. Since I don't share your fantasies and you don't accept reality, nothing I say can be of any significance to you.
We're still waiting for your challenge. Where is it?
You said: All of them except Collins are pariahs in the scientific community. Collins was a poor choice. If you read his book you will find his alot of his beliefs are contradictory to much of what you believe.
My point is: whatever the scientific community considers these individuals to be is of no concern to me. Nobody will write something to be published unless he/she believes what is written. The agenda of 'world elitists' is to lead the masses by the nose, into believing that which they want the masses to believe. My placing Collins among the authors, is meant to counter the thoughts of those others, since the only fair way to establish a train of thought, is to hear/read/investigate/ruminate it... weighing everything beside, comparatively and even against one another.
They are pariahs because they have failed to make a point, or because no one in the Scientific community wants to validate their contributions?
The Doctor who first suggested medical staff should wash their hands in between each patient, because germs were being spread from one person to another during examination, causing the death of many, was so severely criticized and then ostracized, he went mentally insane. In the end, as we now know, his suggestion was not only good, it was a medical breakthrough. I don't remember his name right now, but I can find it in one of my books, if you like.
Again, my point is... we are each responsible for finding TRUTH, not the truth some would like us to find, but TRUTH. Truth is actually absolute. However, this, I'm certain, is another point someone will step forward to debate.
Greetings to you, LookingForWalden. I appreciate your comment. I never did call myself scientifically adept.
BLESSINGS to you, In THE NAME of THE LIVING G'D! Amen.
Of course, no amount of evidence of reality is relative to what you want to believe. You don't care that evolution is a fact, it doesn't concern you in the least. You don't care that those you have offered from the Discovery Institute are frauds, it is of no concern to you.
Sure, even when it has nothing to do with reality. The Lord of the Rings was published.
LOL! Funny that YOU should mention that.
But, they do nothing to counter thoughts, they only spew creationist/ID myths and superstitions, just like you.
What contributions? They haven't offered any, that is the point.
There is no need, your example has nothing to do with your beliefs.
You are not looking for truth, you are looking for support for your beliefs.
Why are you introducing threign reinforce you claims?
I believe you understand this is an extremely ridiculous statement.
I agree with you absolutely.
No. They are pariahs because they eschew the scientific methods, and have an agenda driving instead of neutrality.
Again I believe you know this already.
And what of Galileo? Surely I don't need to find you a book to remind you of the atrocities committed against science and scientists by religion. Science which is known as FACT to all in this day and age.
The scientific community is secular and impartial. They seek the truth regardless of what that is.
I agree with you
These scientists do not argue against Evolution or Natural selection, they argue against specific parts of Darwinism which are not yet proven, Darwin himself was said to throw caution at many of these subjects.
Here is a link to a simple explanation of what natural selection is. I understand that you do not have a lot of time to read vast sources so I found this one. It is made by Christ College at Cambridge University (UK) (the number 1 University in the world) to teach evolution to children. Many references are given.
See if you can find anything wrong or suspicious with what has been said here:
http://www.christs.cam.ac.uk/darwin200/ … page_id=d3
I have never heard of any professional to refuse these simple principles that make up natural selection.
Thank you for your time, and please excuse ATroubledMan, many people are intolerant to religious people because they offer no proof (that we can relate to) whilst the non-faithful can offer proof that is relatable to all.
I think it is better to ask what it is about these concepts that a religious person does not believe?
And if you wish to drop our previous conversation then I am perfectly fine with that, progress will only really be made if both parties are willing.
Have a good evening,
Thank you so very much for the reference. However, I would be lying to you if I said that is enough information to persuade me in any particular direction. The problem, you see, is that I am not a Scientist and I would have to study this information, yes, much like a child does, working my way up... It would literally take me months to create a basis of foundation that would make sense enough for me to begin finding something within the principles that can be refuted.
That's not my way. Moreover, I would have to look at other sources as well. What you have directed me to, is a possible starting point. However, I can't say so at this moment. I'm not equipped.
I've left this argument so far behind me, as I've delved into the more profound spiritual factors relating to my faith, such as the studies I mentioned earlier, including Messianic Biblical Studies over the last three or four years.
When I study something I don't just glaze. So, I want to thank you for pointing me to an interesting link. However, I don't know that I would be the one to take up such a debate at this moment in time, again. I'm obviously not equipped to do so.
Do I believe G'D Created humanity? The answer is yes, I do. I also am fully aware I cannot defend my position from this platform; except to say, history has often unearthed what was considered proofs, that have over time, had to be renegotiated proofs, for their fallibility.
I believe G'D IS Infallible. And, if HE were to be fallible on one point, HE would be fallible in all points.
The substantiating evidences I've experienced over the last thirty plus years do not leave room for such a premise. Of course, I am always pushing to learn more... and I am highly aware that there are people on the face of the earth that have decided anyone who doesn't believe in certain considerations such as Darwinism is ignorant.
If pressed I will have to admit to the latter in this area, until absolute proof, I can understand, ruminate and swallow, scratches the paint off my faith... and then I will have to investigate further...
The only problem with this is that I don't have another thirty to fifty years in which to do so... not unless I break all the longevity records for my family.
BLESSINGS to you, Sir, in THE NAME of my TEACHER, my GUARDIAN, my STRENGTH! YESHUA HAMASCIACH! Amen.
What I read into that is that you have no interest in learning something that might have a direct impact on your religious beliefs.
You are simply being offered to spend a little time to understand evolution, but you refuse to do so and most likely will continue to be dishonest in your responses regarding it.
Those animals also cannot cure anything that ails them, hence they can die from that which medical science has already found cures, they cannot send themselves to the moon or a probe to Jupiter, they cannot communicate with each other round the world and create systems of information that everyone has access. The list go on and on.
In other words, your examples are pointless.
Comparing years gone by of people embracing medieval thinking, superstitions and myths due to ignorance and religions does not mean the world is changing today in which people have access to more information and knowledge than ever before.
Of course, some refuse to let go of that they embrace, however their children may very well let go in light of our changing world.
Look what unleashing the power of religions has done for us? Dangerous is a mild adjective to describe it.
No, in the name of The Fuehrer.
LOL! Truly, that is a blatantly dishonest claim and denial of reality.
Followed by another.
Look guys. All the discussion, debate, fighting, arguing, insults, "gotcha commentary" or pontification in the world is not going to change a thing. Here it is in a nutshell. We're all in the same boat. We're all human beings with a choice. We've been born,(quickened)and therefore have free will, the capacity for independent thought, responsibility for our own end. If you don't think God is fair, or you don't like the way he does things, you have the "right" or capacity to gripe, but, God is sovereign. He sets the standards. In his infinite mercy, he has given us all the information we need to settle our eternal destinies. He has also provided the way out. (Jesus Christ) Take it or leave it. I think the author of this post is trying to warn you (us, me) that there is a day of judgment. Troubled Man, one of these days, you are going to die. (hope it's a long time from now, but, it IS inevitable) "It is appointed unto man, once to die and after this, the judgement." I don't want to see you go to hell. Yes, I know that you'll probably come back with biting comment, but facts are facts and on Judgement day, this "post thread" will be only a flash in the pan of your entire life." Believing in the Bible is not mandatory. If you don't believe it, don't worry about it. However, actions have consequences. Those of us who are saddled with the responsibility of knowing the difference between right and wrong, will be required to answer for what we did with the knowledge of Jesus Christ.
Islam is false. Catholicism is false. Jehovah's Witness doctrine is false. Buddhism is false as is Wicca, First Church of Christ, Scientist, Mormonism etc. The ONLY person of any consequence that I have to answer to is Jesus. EVERYTHING else is fluff, hyperbole, words........... Jesus said in the book of John, 14th chapter, "I am the way, the truth and the Life. No man cometh unto the Father, but by me." He's either telling the truth, or is a liar. I believe he's telling the truth. There's an old story of the death of Voltaire which he was attended by a doctor and nurse. Allegedly, when he passed, he was screaming about the flames, the pain, the horrors of hell and the consequences of his decision(s)made in life. Sobering thought.
You don't really have to answer to anybody about this subject on "this side" of eternity, but, you WILL answer to God. In the FINAL ANALYSIS, nothing else will matter much.
You believe in God's "infinite mercy" yet you believe that mercy is revoked post death for non-Christians. Sounds like finite mercy.
I too believe in Yashua that He is God the Father come in the flesh to be a sacrificial offering for man's sin. But after 25 years in the evangelical churches I also believe the the Christian religion is a manmade religion that has wraped the truth of Yashua in Roman/Greek paganism with a micro- thin veneer of Judaism.
Religion is dead, and you can safely bet that if you live in a developed country, your grandchildren won't follow the religion you are following. Welcome to the modern world.
LOL! Hows' that for a "biting comment"? Facts are facts? Judgement Day? Going to hell?
My my my, how superior you are to the rest of us with such a saddled responsibility. I do hope you can wield that power much better than your ancestors did when they began the Inquisitions, Crusades and witch burnings, all in an effort to show us the difference between right and wrong.
Of course, it is taken as an obvious conclusion that all believers believe the very same thing about other religions that you do. That could very well be why your ancestors attempts at showing us the difference between right and wrong failed so miserably.
No, that is but one of the many such stories about Voltaire conjured up by his enemies. Here are his own words...
"What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason."
This is one long-winded gabfest. There are pros and cons on both sides of the issue.
I submit three pieces of advice for the Christian from the Bible. Consider your actions, your words, and the timing of either:
Reaching out, whether done well or poorly, still boils down to self-isolation: Proverbs 9:12 "If thou be wise, thou shalt be wise for thyself: but if thou scornest, thou alone shalt bear it."
Don't worry about the other guy's business, as it will all come out in the wash. Revelation 22:11 "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."
God has his own plan, and can take care of his own business. There will come a time when you should actually no longer evangelize. Get with the program. Hebrews 8:11 "And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest."
This goes out from one Christian to all others. Leave unbelievers alone to un-believe. It will work itself out. In the meantime, small talk will do. Be kind to those who need kindness, help the ones who ask for help, kick only the asses that need kicking -- and just enjoy the camaraderie.
Thanks for the commentary. Reading your advice brought a smile to my face. You see, the first three days after I posted the challenge, were spent in intercessory prayer and fasting. I continued to feel a burden for a few particular individuals after that; however, the burden has lifted.
Your words come in a timely fashion. This is after all, G'D's Battle. The points I made here, remain here, as another wise Believer said: they will remain here "long after" I leave.
I served my purpose. My part is done. G'D Remains in Control.
Thanks so very much for your word. I appreciate the gentleness with which you shared the thought. Your point is taken.
BLESSINGS to you, in THE NAME that has no equal, JESUS, THE BRIGHTEST MORNING STAR! THE ROD and STAFF of our faith! Amen.
That's fair enough Emveet, if you feel like you do not have sufficient knowledge to argue the case against evolution then there is no point in doing so. But forgive me if I'm wrong (I'm new to HubPages), but I thought this Challenge Thread was about proving/disproving God?
You said: "...if you feel like you do not have sufficient knowledge to argue the case against evolution then there is no point in doing so. But forgive me if I'm wrong (I'm new to HubPages), but I thought this Challenge Thread was about proving/disproving God?"
Ahh... I see where you're coming from now. Well, Sir, that was quite a strategic move; however, you will not be able to disprove THE EXISTENCE of G'D, based on my inability to generate proofs solid enough to negate your Darwinist theories. You see, I am all too aware that, while I may be ignorant of the subject, in depth, there are so many individuals who would be more than able to refute the claims you make.
There are countless Scientists, who do in fact, support the Creationist platform. The fact that these have been educationally outcast does not make them wrong. Of course, the social structures surrounding the effort to invalidate their research and besmirch their theories would definitely be your ally.
There is evidence of an agenda to keep Creationists out of the Academic circles that hope to infuse society with the mindset that Darwinism is the only acceptable origin claim.
Despite the attempt to keep such Academians out of the educational system, dozens, who could turn your platform around in a heartbeat, basing their knowledge in the areas of Medical Physics, Biochemistry, Chemistry, Immunology, Microbiology, Chemical Engineering, Genetic Engineering, Paleontology, Environmental Science, Biochemical Engineering, Creationist Plant Physiology, Mathematics, Neuroscience and dozens of other expert Scientific fields.
There have also been hundreds of cases of religious discrimination, utilized as a tool by both the Educational Systems and the Judicial Systems, in league with those who have decided that worldview should lean toward platforms of Evolution, and other non-Creationist views, because it benefits the NWO.
The fact that I can't string phrases that would cause you to twirl in confusion related to this Darwinistic discussion that was so well intertwined in the "Challenge" bears no weight in the idea that there is no G'D.
That is just the opinion of those who choose to believe that way.
You're smooth, Philanthropys2012... a lot smoother than Troubled Man, to be sure; however, you haven't convinced me; and you cannot do so, until you can prove to me HE IS not. Considering my lifelong relationship with HIM, the thousands of subjective reasons associated with my faith, I am more than certain you cannot achieve the goal.
BLESSINGS to you, in THE NAME of THE CREATOR G'D, WHO WAS, WHO IS and WHO FOREVER SHALL BE! YESHUA HAMASCIACH! Amen.
No no what I meant with my last comment was that I thought that someone who is challenging people to prove/disprove God would already know the foundations for the arguments that will be posted against them. I'm not saying that your refusing to continue the argument on the basis of insufficient knowledge to continue is any evidence for the non existence of God.
I just wanted to ask you why you put up a challenge about it if you knew you'd have to opt out due to insufficient knowledge :L I may however be mistaken as to what this challenge actually is though. Were we supposed to be arguing about something else here?
As for the creationist scientists. I applaud them, they certainly should not be shunned out of the scientific community because of their religious beliefs. After all, all knowledge is valuable and these scientists could conclusively prove the existence of a God or a particular God.
But what I'm more interested in is what are their actual arguments against darwinism. I've never seen anyone refute the idea of natural selection (none of your sources did either), just other non-concluded parts of darwinism.
I myself do not know what darwinists say, I imagine there are many pathways that natural selection has taken it's forms through. It's not a simple process and Is far as I know the only thing in debate is how it actually happened (history is hard to prove of course), as there are several ways it could have. Was there one original organism, several and was it gene mutation or conjugation (sharing of DNA that bacteria use) that allowed for it and in which cases? So many questions, it's back tracking every organisms pass through evolution and there are so many fossils, datings and theories to work through!
It would be really interesting to read how someone argues that a polar bear being white wasn't a result of natural selection though.
A much more recent example involves squirrels. During the Victorian Era (19th century), the North American squirrel was introduced to the UK. Since then, these squirrels have outcompeted the food and living space from the native red squirrels. As a result, red squirrel populations have dwindled and we now have to use conservation programmes to keep our red ones from becoming extinct. This is just one of billions of examples of natural selection at work. Without human intervention (if we let nature decide), the grey squirrel will have completely wiped out the red squirrel from the UK.
Homo-sapiens (us) did a similar thing to the neanderthals :S
Well Emveet, I actually just joined to try and save atheists the time of debating because there really is no need, I believe that religious people should have their beliefs left alone. Though when there is a chance, I will argue just for the sake of personal development for both parties.
If you want to know the reasons for why I lost my faith, you can read "6 reasons why religion is declining". The section that starts with "In a world with a God" onwards is the part that disproves the abrahamic God for me.
And thank you, I wish you or any other religious or non religious person no harm, but I come here to debate!
Have a nice day,
Without human intervention, the red squirrel would have had no problem, or am I being obtuse?
Human intervention is to blame for most of our problems, including the 7 billion souls now residing here on earth.
We tend (I think) to put too high a regard to humanities survival, and before science intervened, humanity was a fairly constant slow growing virus on the earth, whereas now, we are multiplying like a rampant virus, and like all virii, the cure will be when we consume ourselves by our over reproduction.
Unless 'nature' (God) intervenes.
Evolution has been scientifically proven in humans as well.
Certain ethnic backgrounds that have raised cattle have evolved to drink milk outside of their gestational period.
Also in Africa some people have evolved to become immune to disease and to survive on a severely limited diet.
Natural selection is as debatable as the earth being round.
However, I'm not totally sold on spontaneous generation I must admit.
I do not see what is so crazy about spontaneous generation, but it took me forever to realise what the situation actually was.
What would you say to the idea that on Earth we had water, we had the constant moving of water (waves-gravity) and we had eternity (or until the sun burnt out) to do it.
The estimate is 3.8 billion years for when life started. So 3.8 billion years of trial and error between the waves doesn't sound all too unreasonable? There's certainly a chance it could have happened. Proving that it did is harder though haha.
You have not caused me to withdraw. Honestly, the upset I felt was with myself, because I realize that, during the time I allowed myself to lay down upkeep of information relating to Darwinism (something I stopped bothering with in the late 90's) perhaps a lot has been proven, from time to time. However, that wasn't what I saw. When I did make an effort to keep up with the subject, all I kept hearing were theories scored over theories, that were embraced by the Scientific communities, not because they had the potential to be validated, but because this gave science one more opportunity to shut down the case against Creationism.
But Darwinism isn't the only theory I set down. I don't believe in The Big Bang theory either. I could put all the components of a watch together in a plastic bag, and if I were mechanically inclined, I would create a machine that could shake that bag silly, night and day, 24/7, but even if I bothered, I know that I know under no circumstance would a watch result from the effort.
Perhaps my rejoinder that the species that have been attributed to the link of evolutionary progress, are not actually additonal pieces of the puzzle, but mere extinct forms of life that have gone unnoticed until recently, may have seemed jeuvenile, but I will not lay aside the idea that what I have said is possible, plausible and perhaps even truer, than any and all of the scientific community's embraced finds.
Why do I say this? Because (and only because~ for I have no super intelligence... I'm ordinary in this regard, not possessing genius of any sort, but fairing equitably in a society of 'normally informed' human beings) I BELIEVE G'D IS! HE IS!
Now, I'm not certain what it was that caused you to turn away from G'D... but I am very curious to know what heartache and pain has caused you to decide you want no part of HIM in your future.
I'm sorry you've been sorely wounded. My experience is that the wounding is very traumatic, profundity of anguish that has the ability to scar in ways the human mind cannot define or perhaps even comprehend. I've been there. Several years ago, when I lost my only sister to pancreatic cancer... She was so healthy otherwise, it took her heart hours of horrific pain to finally stop. I had to leave the hospital room, because I couldn't bear to hear the rasping of breath against her throat as she drowned in her own body fluids.
To this day, because I have a child who is severly disabled, and declining everyday, I continue to grapple with the forces of life that cause someone you love to deteriorate before your very eyes, to diminish, without recourse, simply because... I cry out to THE G'D I love, daily... praying that HE WILL BE MERCIFUL to her... she is vital. She is oh, so very intelligent! She has wit and beauty. She has an entire future waiting for her contribution to LIFE, not death...
So, I grapple. I cannot tell you how deeply, how profusely I grapple...
Still, I know G'D IS G'D! I cannot lay this down. I cannot. I will sooner stop breathing than deny HIS DEITY! HIS WISDOM to be greater and more perfect than any I could consider to possess.
I could go on, but I think I have said enough to make my point.
Sir, you are very gracious in having helped me understand you weren't making an attempt to draw me into the Darwinistic conversation as a ploy. I admit that is what I came to believe during the writing of this last post...
I will be happy to continue interacting with you. However, on the point of Darwinism, though I cannot produce evidence to make my case, let me simply state, G'D IS CREATOR, in as far as I know, believe and will ever concede. Nothing will change this opinion in me, no matter how ignorant some may try to make me sound. The point, therefore, as far as I'm concerned is established.
I will welcome your continued offer of 'links' in an effort to inform me otherwise, but I sincerely doubt any amount of humanly gathered information will change my view. Why? Simply because of the relationship I have with G'D. HE IS my Friend, my Strength, my Peace in the midst of hurricane heartaches and tornado trials. HE IS, and has been for over three decades now, my SOURCE of LIFE, my REFUGE, the VERY BLOOD that courses through my veins.
As for 'The Challenge'... yes, it is something very different. And yes, you have every right to expect me to be prepared to debate with others, if I have placed myself on such a public platform. Please though, don't mind me if I am only human and cannot withstand the onslaught of every arrow whipping in my direction!
BLESSINGS to you, Sir... (I continue to consider you a gentleman, not a lady... a fine gentleman in fact...) in THE NAME of a MASTERFUL CREATOR and WONDERFUL KINDRED SPIRIT! YESHUA HAMASCIACH! Amen.
No, there isn't, not a single person, that is false.
No, there aren't countless Scientists supporting Creationism, that is absolutely false.
No, the fact that they are wrong makes them wrong.
No, there are no conspiracies to keep Creationists out of Academic circles, entirely false.
So, instead of learning something about evolution in order to "twirl us in confusion", you post false statements to support your beliefs.
And, that is the dishonesty of believers who refuse to learn.
Of course if the grey squirrel was not taken to Britain and Europe in the first place, the two wouldn't have had to fight. But the actual idea that one type of squirrel is more fit to survive in an environment than another type is all that is natural selection. That's it.
Although I take your point AguaSilver, I would say that we would have no problem with catering for 7 billion people. Whether we should or not is another question, it might be a lot safer to have a steady 5 billion perhaps. Half of the world population lives in 2 countries mind, there are a lot of underpopulated countries like Australia. China's population is slowing at least. I don't think that we'll have a problem with our population, I imagine there will be child birth restrictions again like there was in China. Humans can think ahead, and If we begin to see problems we'll all make the effort, if not, some of us will end up dying. Not all of us though.
The effects will be stronger on the other animals however. If Global Warming will continue, It will be the animals who aren't adapted for a new climate who are going to suffer.
That again is natural selection, specimens of animals who can survive hotter climates will live to reproduce and those who won't, won't :S
Thank you Emveet,
Okay that's fair enough, I cannot keep badgering on about evolution, It is just something that you need to spend 20 minutes on to get the general idea of. You'll see what I mean when I say Evolution is both fact and theory. (that's if you ever find the time to research it).
And as for my personal beliefs, I was raised a Christian, and at school we were taught both science (which taught evolution as part of the syllabus), christianity, and Islam and touched upon other religions, (we are very multicultural in the UK). Science's evolution made more sense to me at the time and then I thought about the possibility of how an all loving God could not exist if he had the power to make us without the possibility of pain and knew that it would happen (but let's not get into that, I've written an entire hub on it). Hence, I dropped all religious notions and became a man of science. Easy peasy, I had no overwhelming need to defend my religious upbringing at school, I soaked in all of the information I could and then decided. But that's just me.
have a good evening,
Hey there, Philanthropy,
I've just read your "6 Reasons..." Hub.
I see your choice to not believe in G'D was not a result of an excruciating circumstance. Forgive me for assuming it might be. That is what I hear from many individuals with whom I converse.
I'm glad though. Pain and suffering are quite the task masters, extreme, relentless. I've endured much of both.
However, in my experiences, G'D has been a SHELTER, a BULWARK, a RESTING PLACE. Philanthropy, it hurts me to think you simply just looked the other way and walked away from THE G'D Who Made you, Loves you and Longs to Save you from the fluctuating storms of life.
You will experience many, unfortunately. Some, you will find, have the power to grind you down, almost snuffing you out. I don't wish this on you. However, I know this is a fact of life.
Now, I didn't comment on your Hub Page, because you received so many other, rather interesting and diverse responses by both Believers and non-Believers. There was one, that when I read it, I thought: ah... finally... This response referred to Satan.
You proceeded to ask questions of the individual that I don't think were addressed. You asked if Satan was the fallen archangel, Michael. No. Lucifer was his name, son of the morning.
You asked (a paraphrase here) over and over... if there is such a person as G'D, then why would HE Create a world where there is so much disease, so much pain, so many diverse and horrendous measures of suffering?
Have you ever considered, HE ALREADY DID. This was/is THE KINGDOM of G'D, The Place HE DWELLS, where HE IS THE LIGHT, and SOURCE of all...
Have you ever considered that the world of men is not HIS First and only Creation? I personally believe HE COULD and more than likely has created life on other planets. HE Has the capacity... my particular belief is that those planets have nothing to do with us... they are even outside our galaxy... however, that is another area of thought none can make any comments about except imaginary ones, since there is no proof. Besides, I don't want to veer from the point I wanted to make here...
As for the comments I made relating to Satan, well, that is an area of study I am well versed in. Some call it, "Satanology". Others call it "Demonology". My particular area of study has always revovled around Spiritual Warfare, which encompasses both.
As for responding to the questions you had for Seek-and-Find, on your commentary board, I could probably answer them all for you. Problem there is... I've already spent way too much time on this Forum over the last couple of days.
I'm home sick with a sore throat, after singing all weekend... and I seriously wanted to use the time to write more of my book, a fictitious novel based on the precepts revolving around Spiritual Warfare, having a demon as my main character... (I plan on adding up to ten thousand words to that plot today and tomorrow~ so I won't be around much...) However...
I will make an effort to address the subject of Demonology/Satanology on one of my Hub Pages in the near future. Perhaps, if you choose to consider the plausibilities attached to what I will share, you may come to open your objectivity regarding THE LIVING G'D!
BLESSINGS to you, in THE NAME of our MOST SOVEREIGN, OMNIPOTENT, LOVING and MERCIFUL KING, YESHUA HAMASCIACH! Amen.
Okay Emveet, I understand, I think sometimes big questions such as the ones you saw need a hub to answer them. That way the answers will be more visible for everyone, and if they are good they will be graded as such for everyone else to appreciate. It's generally more productive that way and since you're writing a book I understand that you don't want to be spending time on other things when you know you could be bettering the book. All fair and well, make sure to message me in the future after your hub is complete. Thank you
I will Philanthropy... message you. In the meantime, if I can just keep my nose out of this Forum, I may make some headway with my more pressing work. At least, I keep telling myself that. LOL...
BLESSINGS to you. I pray you enjoy your day, receive and give some amazing responses and will take a moment to check out the actual Challenge, considering I posted it, because I was intensely irritated by some truly dsparaging comments made on other Forums in the first place...
So tell me troubled man, how did the two sexes evolve. At the same time? or separately?
So tell me Don, what do you know about evolution?
I know that that all life began in water and the transition from water to land is not really explanable. I know that forensic evidence is the only way you can construct what might have happened and you cannot repeat any experiments. i know there are as many gaps in evolution that cannot be explained.
Don, as far as I am aware, evolution itself is a fact. By evolution, I mean natural selection. (see above for a snazzy example of red and grey squirrels, perhaps just Ctrl+F "squirrels"?)
The history of evolution is not yet conclusive, and this is where all the debate occurs.
Sorry, here is a good explanation of what evolution is ^^ It's basically the idea that animal populations change over times to suit their environment (or if not die) and I don't know anyone who could disagree with such a concept
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evoluti … ition.html
I would agree with that concept. Things are always changing. But evolving from one life form to another is ridiculous. there are no in-between ancesstors; therefore, animals being created and changing over time is a definition of evolution with which no one would disagree. After all that is what the evidence really indicates.
Natural selection is misinterpreted. What Darwin meant was that certain speices had traits that protected them in their environment rather than survival of the fittest. The king of the jungle was not what Darwin had in mind.
If you truly want the answer to that, you only have to study other species. Organisms that self multiply, plants that self fertilise. Life forms that currently have male and female counterparts, need to mate and so they evolve together since the DNA is constantly being exchanged. Men cannot evolve without women evolving too.
And your argument does not prove evolution any more than it does creation. In fact when I say that God took Adam's DNA and created Eve, I am as correct scienti9fically as you are. We are both making suppositions and the proof is not available.
I guess you never went to a musuem and saw the mountains of evidence there is for evolution. Not only does the evidence for evolution debunk the whole adam an eve story, the age of the earth ALSO disproves the bible since the world is not 6000 years old. It is billions of years old.
Your lack of knowledge of the fact of evolution does not make it true.
There is tonnes of evidence for evolution. Even the catholic church has had to admit that evolution happens.
You can deny it all you want. Noone will believe you without evidence especially with all the evidence to the contrary.
Well, you are the one who says the Bible says that the earth is 6000 years old, That shows your ignorance of what the Bible says. It says plainly, "In the beginning God created the heavesn and the earth." did you notice the period? that may have been 6000years acco4rding to you , but it says to me it could bhave been billions or trilions.
And if you want to define evolution as "change" no one would argue with you. But that change is adaptation. Not changing from a monkey to a man.
And in the case of evidence, you should show me those in-between ancestors you claim exist. Or do you relly believe they exist? where are they?
If you add up all the begats and the times given in the bible you arrive at a figure of 6000 years. Actually a bishop made that same calculation a few hundred years ago but thanks for calling me ignorant. I hope you're a fan of irony.
As for your claim that lifeforms evolve but dont change to other species well that is just ridiculous.
Even a child can understand that if something changes a small amount every single year, after millions of years it will be very different from what it was originally.
I dont mean to be insulting but your claim is just so damn ridiculous.
No, you are using magic to explain that, not science.
The scienctific method dictates that you rep[eate experiments with the same result. that is science. Magic is sayin g that one thing becomes another without any in-between. You lack an understanding of science.
Don, injecting gods into your explanations is magic, not science.
The difference is that you believe everything just happened. Bi Bag. Is that science or magic? Or some little cell began developing and it evolved in to thousands of species. Isa that science or magic? You must conclude that things just happen or there is a creator? Logice would say there is a creator rather than things just happening.
Can you show any evidence of those random things hapening today? What are they?
Not really. I understand how everything could have happened. I also understand that it could have happened in a great variety of ways, too. And, it's all based on science.
It's all science, Don. No magic required. No invisible beings needed.
No Don, logic would not say that. Sorry.
The formation of stars is a good one. We can observe how a huge cloud of gas can form a star simply due to gravity by observing millions of stars in their various states of evolution.
Well, if you know a lot of ways it could have happened, you are not being very scientific, are you?
Not necessarily, Don Crowson, scientific theories don't need to have actually happened as long as they can logically come true. All the theories were based on science we know to be true at the moment (this can all change of course)
Where you have a choice of 3 ways that something could have happened, only one of them could be what actually did. This is the problem we are faced with in common descent (evolution origins). We are just looking for clues to decide what did actually happen ^^
What are you talking about, Don?
I am referring to the fact that if various properties and laws of our universe were slightly different in any way, our universe could very well have evolved much differently.
He was just referring to the fact that science has many theories of how things happened, in general, which lead him to believe it wasn't really science. Grasping as straws maybe, but there's no need to be so aggro' Troubled Man! I understand that you are troubled (teehee) but it is part of our evolution that we are sociable creatures! How else could we have outcompeted the larger, more solitary humanoids ? Pack animals ftw!
Guys turn it down a notch! You will catch more bees with honey than with vinegar! You should both know that possessing knowledge of evolution does not make you superior, it makes you lucky perhaps.
What man would turn around and say "actually, you know what, you were right all along" in this situation after being spoken to in such a way? Not many.
Well, I am waiting for real evidence. Evolution is not a fact. It is not a real scientific theory. It is a fraud. No in-between ancestors.
You lack a fundamental understanding of how almost impossible it is for a fossil to be created.
I'm not sure if your aware of the 96% similarity between humans and chimpanzees.
Let's hold some horses here. Don Crowson, what do you mean by "in-between ancestors"?
Do you mean like homo erectus and homo neanderthalensis? Ancestors of which species ??
One more thing which I believe both parties should understand:
Evolution, the theory, has been proven to be a fact. By the theory, I mean natural selection in which the fittest survive to their environment. This is the part of evolution which has been tested on repeatedly to find the same result. Organisms with particular traits will survive particular environments better than others.
After the science, comes the history. Evolutionary descent, or otherwise Common Descent
The common descent is the part that may be considered as "not science" because no repeated tests are involved (other than repeated carbon, and other forms of dating).
At this point, you are making historical discoveries by finding new fossils etc to fit the incredibly complicated puzzle of common descent. Science comes back into it when we have to devise theories as to which exact molecular change caused the difference in the genome of the old organism to become the new one. That involves a lot of tests obviously and that again can be said to be science, if you take the need to test things as part of the definition of science.
Basically, what I'm trying to say is, the actual science behind evolution has been proven (you can see it in squirrels!), it's natural selection. But the history of how it happened has not been conclusively proven. However, there is (I would say) irrefutable proof (but there'll always be one person who disagrees) that for instance horses (see the link) have evolved from previous versions of horse-like organisms. There are many other success stories. That is why it is very promising that other organisms have done the same thing. The science is there, the theory has been proven true, we have seen it work in real life. We just need fossils to concretely say once and for all whether it happened or not for each organism and it's path.
Have a good evening everyone,
Well, I mean that missing link that scientists continue to seek to find. There was that Piltdown man that fooled the scientist. and if you are talking about all of those things you see in the museum, that should be the missing link shouldn't it? So how were the conditions just right to form all of those and not conditions for the missing link?
Don, the term you're looking for is "Transistional Fossil" - 'missing link' is not used as it is often misleading and inaccurate.
Here's some good explanations...
Not really, scientists considered it highly controversial until it was eventually exposed as a fraud.
Homo sapiens are modern humans
Well isnt that funny? 8 different links from prehistoric apes to modern humans. Dont you look the fool.
Oh wait, you're going to say where are the links between the 8 that have already been found aren't you?
What if people find 16 links? You'll ask for the 16 links between them wont you?
Stop deliberatley being stupid and wasting everyones time in asking them to school you on evolution. Go and read a book like the rest of us and stop making yourself look like the ignorant fool. Schoolkids know this. Why dont you?
I agree it would be prudent for you and/ or anyone who wants to debate evolution to actually read On the Origin of Species instead of getting info off Wikipedia and creationist sites.
Origin of species is an awesome book for the time it was written. Especially if you try to place yourself in Darwins shoes and the time period in which he wrote it.
Of course, now we have the internet, which is a fantastic source of information, there is no reason why we shouldn't use it.
We also have molecular biology that allows scientists to see things that Darwin couldn't see. and they are proving that Darwion was not exactly right in his guesses.
As one molecular biologists stated that it didn't occur to him that evolution could e wrong. Now there are real scientists for you. they simply accept what another one says.
Like what, exactly?
What molecular biologist? Who?
Don, if you Google Scholar the words, "Molecular Biology Evolution Evidence" you will find about 894,000 papers citing evidence for evolution in molecular biology.
Please link where you are getting this information from.
Heyy let's not libel Darwin! He was very humble with his findings, in his letter to his friend Joseph Hooker, he called his own work "'presumptuous’ and ‘foolish’". You're right though, we're finding more and more information about all sciences, that's a good thing though! We get closer to the truth!
Well, it is the evolutionist who continues to look for missing link. He has known about those 8 so-call men(sic) since day one. so if I am the fool, why are they still looking for the missing link. Perhaops you should tell them that they already have their links so they can quit looking. Does that make sense to you now?
Thanks for not reading my post about the missing link, Don. Please feel free to continue using that misleading and inaccurate term even though it is not used.
People are inquisitive. It is human nature. For every person that doesnt want to look anymore, there will be another that does want to look for whatever reason, fame, fortune, or just because they want to sdiscover something never seen before.
As for your referral to "junk science". What you are referring to is not science at all and bears no relevance to anything.
Darwin does not have to be 100% right about everything or everything is untrue. He may have ben wrong about a few things, but the theory of evolution has been proven to be fact day after day.
I gave you EIGHT links from ape to man. How many do you need? A hundred? A thousdand? A million?
I get the distinct impression that if there were a million links you would simply bleat "where are the missing million links inbetween those million fossils you already found".
I guess some people never learn either due to inability or unwillingness.
(Im talking about you by the way.)
Yes, I understand that conditions have to be just right, or you will not have a fossilized creation. Probably a near ice-age condition.
On what do you base those conclusions if not an understanding of evolution?
How are you defining evolution? Is it adaptation that animale and plants adapt to their environment? Hey, i=f that's true, we have no disagreement. Bur if you think that there is a half man and half monkey somehere in the mix, we are not in agreement.
Evolutionst have been look for that in-between ancestror for years. Piltdown man and Lucy are two of their endeavors to proove the half man and half money creation? so are there any of those in existence? None on r3ecord.
I'm not. Evolution is already defined.
Don't you believe there was a talking donkey in the Book of Numbers?
I really have no idea what you're talking about, Don.
Man adapts to his environment. That does not mean that he evolves. Evolving would mean a complete change from something into something else. Like from a monkey into a man.
Well, of course Numbers says there was a talking donkey. But did you hear him/her speak?
But Don! You must understand, as a rule of thumb, things only change species when they cease to be able to make fertile offspring with the older organism. If a monkey and a human could make fertile children together, we would be considered one species. Thus, the only real change that has to happen for a new species to evolve is to do with chromosomes.
Thus an ape can evolve directly into a human with absolutely no link in-between. All it would mean is that the ape exhibited many human characteristics, acquired an extra chromosome, had children, those children go on to breed with other apes who have an extra chromosome, and then THEIR children will have 2 more chromosomes, marking a new species, us
Have we chabged from science to science fiction? sounds like it?
No no here is the science!
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008 … e_numb.php
From step 1 right through to the end!
What evidence do you have that evolution is not real or valid?
It sounds like you just cannot accept it because it conflicts with your beliefs, which is fine and I respect that but you shouldn't try to argue science you haven't read or understand.
Hey, I studied evolution in college as many others have also studied that subject. When I questioned my teacher about life moving from the water to the land, she said there were as many gaps in evolution as there are in swiss cheese. Does not matter what I believe or don't believe. What =matters are those ghaps. They are simple speculation.
Darwin could not see the things that we see now. And as scientific theory is defined in the good old daysa, we simply confirmend results of experiments and if they consistently gave the same results, we had the hypotheses. Many more experiments giving the same results resulted in a theory. But you can't do that with evolution because you cannot repeatt experiments Therefore, the only way to test evolution is forensically. And with the absence of real evidence, it is speculation.
Check the internet. Scientists do disagree with evolution as a fact. Except when you define it as change, you cannot doubt that things do change. What other conclusions are drawn from that is speculation.
I have checked the internet, no scientist disputes that some changes are as a result of genetic mutation caused by radiation from the sun or error in dna cloning.
Also, you are arguing the "God of Gaps" argument in which you state that because God can fill in gaps, he is right.
No, I am arguing that it appears that each spoeces appears to have been created separately rather that evolving from one little cell into all of the various species.
99.9% of ALL species that ever existedhaev gone extinct already. Are you saying that god is continually created new species all the time because we keep on finding them.
That's your argument? Species "appear" to have been created separately?
I thought the topic was evoolution I didn't know we had narrowed it to mutations. and you are right, every scientist agrees that mutations happen. But not every scientist believes evolution happens in the manner described by the main body of scientis who subscribe to eht evolution theoruy.
Mutations are how evolution happens. If mutations happen then EVOLUTION HAPPENS.
I cannot believe you dont understand something so simple.
I think you are just denying it because it conflicts with your beliefs and you dont want to give them up. You havent backed up anything you have said at all.
No, mutations are simply mutations. they do not reproduce themselves.
DNA reproduces itself and ever now and then it makes a mistake, a mutation.
Please stop. You have no idea what you are talking about, that much is crystal clear. If you knew anything about DNA and mutations then you wouldnt be having this argument.
You know it is ok to not know something or disagree with something, but if you are going to argue something and you dont know what you are arguing about, well that just opens the door to a whole lot of ridicule.
This is getting ridiculous. It's becoming painfully obvious that you have never taken any biology, physics, anthropology classes in your life. Your claims are getting more and more outlandish. I have asked ou where you get your research from, obviously you don't want to share bible.creation.god./science is wrong.com website.
Then, why would your posts indicate you don't know anything about evolution?
Really? Normally, a college teacher would just answer the question. Perhaps, the teacher did answer, but you heard something entirely different.
"One of the most important experiments in evolution is going on right now in a laboratory in Michigan State University. A dozen flasks full of E. coli are sloshing around on a gently rocking table. The bacteria in those flasks has been evolving since 1988--for over 44,000 generations. And because they've been so carefully observed all that time, they've revealed some important lessons about how evolution works."
http://scienceblogs.com/loom/2008/06/02 … lution.php
Yes, we can find those scientists, but we discover that they really have no evidence to refute evolution. Often, they are just brainwashed believers trying to promote their religious beliefs.
I dont understand why you respect that. I find it down right rude and insulting.
It's a real shame that you didn't post your own views
It's a greater shame that science is getting a bad rap with junk science.
I hope that's not in response to my comment, I maintain the scientific validity of what I said above ^^
No, it wasn't in response to your comment. It is a general statement that what passes for science is not always real science. There is a junk science that results from a lack of the use of scientific methods.
Like I said half an hour ago. If it doesnt use scientific methods then it isnt science is it?
Because it is impossible to use the scientific method with evolution. You cannot repeat experiments.
That doesnt make any sense. You mentioned "junk science" that isnt really scence at all as an argument to back up your claim that you cannot repeatedly test evolution?
Just so you know, scientists created some RNA strands and OBSERVED them replicating, mutating and evolving.
You cannot create evolution, but you can damn well observe it and that has been done many many times.
Who said that cells do not replicate or mutate? I didn't say that. I said you cannot repeat experiments in the evolutionary process. You can combine hydrogen and oxygen in proper amounts and get water most of the time. At least you can repeat the experiment so that you can draw conclusions and prove them.
You cannot do that with evolution, can you?
You don't understand science so you question how to test it.
How did we know what the sun was made of?
Do you think we created little miniature stars in labs over and over again?
You do not understand how the scientific method works.
Evolution on that scale takes MILLIONS of years.
But when we make observations, we can make the wrong observations. In fact our observations may be changed by the ability to see new worlds due to developments in technology. Molecular bioplogy is somethngs that was only a dream to Darwin.
And i do recall that serious scientists believed that life was spontaneously7 generated from manure.
So I do understnd science. But I do not accept what scientists say just because they say it.
Try this one
http://www.discovery.org/articleFiles/P … Fakest.pdf
Son, there are and have been long term evolutionary experiments conducted. One such experiment involved lizards being introduced on a Caribbean Island, which they've been studying for 14 years.
Sorry to say you're wrong about that. We can find lots of experiments being conducted. And, they are repeatable.
So look at this one and tellme that scienbtific observation are always correct. And while you are atit tell me why the Piltdown man is that missing link? And tell me why so many thought that life came from manure.
Then read this.
http://www.discovery.org/articleFiles/P … Fakest.pdf
Really? A link to a creation website republishing a right wing extremist magazine.
Pope was right.
A little learning is a dangerous thing.
This discussion about science has turned into a fools errand.
Really? You deny the observations of someone who is making observations and sees something you do not see. And you deny it based on the source. Call yurself a scientist? That is nonsense. Real nonsense. It shows that your faith in what you believe cannot be changed. Closed-minded scientists? Relly?
I deny the observations of people with agendas.
If they were right a university or the government would grant them money and publish there findings.
Do you not understand its a universities dream to find something radically new and publish it for the prestige and grants.
While discover.org is funded by people like you who must be right or the bible is wrong.
You see, Don, I already posted a response about the Piltdown mand and the missing link. Then, I posted another response thanking you for ignoring that post. And, now you want me to once again talk about exactly the same thing?
Why don't you tell me?
I saw no evidence there that refutes evolution. Jonathan Wells spends much of his time attacking scientists, books and schools while pointing out a couple of fakes. So what?
Did you know Jonathan Wells openly denied that HIV causes AIDS without a shred of scientific support?
Thanks for proving that each person must verify what some so-called scientists aleges.
Greetings to everyone who is participating in this discussion.
I would like to say a few things.
First of all... I would like to thank those of you who made fun of my supposed 'ignorance' relating to Darwinism because the mockery compelled me to investigate the topic further. Of course, I've only spent a few hours investigating, but for now, I consider, as I have followed the train of thought continuing in this thread, to be enough.
Here's what i know:
Those of you who continue to insist "Darwinism is a fact" are in fact, not supported by Science in your statements, but by a few laws that have made a mockery of the study.
Why do I say this?
In 1995, an association called The American National Association of Biology of Teachers (NABT), put forth an 'official position'. That position is now considered in North Amercia to be the agreed stance of major science organizations and educational institutions.
The position plainly says:
"The diversity of life on earth is the outcome of evolution: an unsupervised, impersonal, unpredictable, and natural process of temporal descent with genetic modification that is affected by natural selection, chance, historical contingencies, and changing environments."
This quote was obtained from the following link:
http://www.veritas-ucsb.org/library/bat … ching.html
Essentially, what the Association says about evolution, is that this subject needs to be taught to our children, in schools beginning at the Elementary level through to University levels compromising the ethics of Science by stating that even though this can never be proven, as man, according to this theory is the product of the unknown; this postion shall not only be accepted by the Scientific community, but shall be the only one accepted by the Scientific community.
Now, I could go on and on and on here. I won't even begin to place a portion of what I've discovered through my research.... there is so much.
However, I will state this:
So far, every defence against Creationism has stated that those of us who believe in it, refuse to admit the truth because we are indoctrinated to believe G'D IS CREATOR. If G'D is CREATOR, then G'D HAS A POSITION in the minds of men... and will be harder to deny. However, if G'D IS not The Creator, as the supporters of 'evolution' so adeptly have eliminated the need to establish, then G'D can be eliminated from every equation.
Now, as I have studied Biblical Prophecies, Apologetics and more for decades, I am secure in saying, that this formula of eliminating G'D from the minds of men, and deceiving the masses into believing they are more intelligent if they follow the false indoctrination implied by those Scientists, who, have essentially sold their souls to elitists who want to control... yes...control the masses, is the ploy of one Satan (the arch-enemy of G'D), who must prepare earth for the End Times, a season of the World, when his NWO is established. This, in order for him to create his one world government, and his one world religion, (something the Book of Revelation was very clear and concise in predicting all the way back circa 95 A.D.). I know that you will all make fun of me for stating this... and you are free to do so.
However, I am so much happier now tha tI understand the premise upon which you have positioned your heartfelt insistance. Evolution is not a fact. It is a deception meant to be an illusory fact, in order to placate the masses, make them feel strong in their decisions to walk away from G'D, because G'D is the only ONE Who Continues to STAND for TRUTH.
Of course, those of you who are so quick to call Creationists indoctrinated fools (even if you do so indirectly cannot admit that this sort of "position" taken by Scientific Institutions of power, influence and financial means... is in fact, the reason... and only reason any of you feel the right to call 'evolution' fact.
The point here is simple and straightforward:
Some have asked Creationists to prove that evolution is not fact. This is how it works. There are hundreds of millions and even billions of human beings buried beneath the surface of the earth, because over time, their deceased remains have collected in graves, as we now know them and in other forms, since ancient history didn't provide pine boxes to protect the human carcass.
However, if the theories of evolution were in any, way, shape or form true, then by the same token, there should be HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of deteriorated remains, or "fossils" providing ABSOLUTE EVIDENCE of the links between the one celled organism and the entity we now know as HUMANITY.
You see, beloved 'Evolution' followers.... if the only way Science has been able to substantiate the 'theories' elistists want so desperately to indoctrinate in our young people and in those who consider themselves the 'intelligentia' of our day, is to show one fossilized entity, demark it as a plausible link, drawing conclusions that somehow that link is in any way, shape or form related to humans, simply because the position of hired Scientists who have buried their academic integrities in cement, simply because they want to be known in the world as men of Science, when all they are is 'puppets' dangled on the strings of those who can afford to silence, support and stuff them with their requirements... then this world is on its way to collapse.
Of course, those of us who know that this is not Science, this is a lie, also know that the world is on its way to collapse. However, that collapse will be controlled and it will be geared toward eliminating certain aspects of society as we know it, including elimination of those who reject the [i]common world view, because The New World Order cannot allow those of us who truly do think for ourselves to do so, without blacklisting us as 'troublemakers'.
I'm sorry for all of you who have considered yourselves so free... so intelligent... so practical and wise. Meanwhile, you've been led by the nose, using invisible thread... fed with deception that feeds the ego, telling you, [i]you are so right, but only because you are doing what those who have a NWO in preparatory stages want.
G'D BLESS you all, as you continue on this road to annihilism. Slowly but surely, that which was written in The Book of Revelation is coming to pass.
Much of what we have already seen happening to our economy, to our food production, to our social structures, orginally intended to protect the people governmental bodies were created to protect... but that those same establishments have now come together to dumbdown... should have already produced enough evidence that anyone who still has a free thought left in his/her head should be alerted.
In other words, when you accuse someone of not knowing what they are talking about... be wise enough to check on the evidence. I never said I knew everything, but I know enough to know that what I believe [i] is and continues to be FREE THOUGHT. I am not indoctrinated.
... perhaps you should rethink your position if you are a believer in 'Darwinism".
Truly, I wrote such a lengthy post, because I am in the middle of writing a book. I don't know if I'll be back, but I presume this post will receive a lot of flack....
So be it... perhaps you can instigate me into discovering even more information about how the world of elitists (who want the masses controlled) is defining other institutions, other establishments, other aspects of necessity for life, in order to achieve their goals!
BLESSINGS to you all, IN THE MIGHTY, MAJESTIC and MOST SOVEREIGN NAME of JESUS, THE MESSIAH! THE ONE WHO WAS, WHO IS, WHO FOREVER SHALL BE, CREATOR, L'RD and KING! Amen.
I suggest you give up studying evolution at this point. It's obvious you do not understand half of what you are stating about the subject. Go to your church and rely on the words of your preacher as you've always done. Don't try to understand that which you are incapable of. Bible belt Baptist, I bet.
Nobody but evangelical fundamentalists really question evolution.
Nobody but them have everything to lose from it.
If the earth is older than 6000 years it ruins their theory that the bile is correct in every literal sense.
That's why they fight tooth and nail over it.
Unfortunately while we can use the worlds educational institutions as our sources,
They are limited to a book written in the bronze age.
Fish in a barrel.
Also, at the risk of sounding haughty, there is a gallop poll which shows a correlation between education and the belief in evolution.
I used it in a research paper.
So, you admit you know nothing about evolution; spend an hour or two searching for religious sites that refute it, then come back to say those who support it have sold their souls? After a couple of hours of biased research? How, exactly, do you expect people to take your conclusions? Do you expect to be taken seriously?
Hi Emile R,
I didn't say I know nothing at all about evolutioin, what I said was that it's been years since I delved into the study. However, i don't call myself an expert in the field.
The statement I posted is the platform of The National Association of Biology Teachers. The platform plainly states that 'evolution is to be taught, despite the fact that evolution is described as "an unsupervised, impersonal, unpredictable and natural process of temporal descent with genetic modification that is affected by natural selection, chance historical contingencies and changing environments... but no solid evidence as is necessary for normal scientific applications.
I didn't make this up. This is the Positonal Statement.
What about the statement is unclear? There is NO DIRECT link between the one celled organism and humanity throughout the course of hundreds of millions of years worth of fossilized geological evidence, other than a few/couple of 'articles' that have been deemed as such, with much controversy. Paleontolgists have failed to establish evidence pertaining to ancestoral transitions?
The Science I learned in school required ordered experimentation, with a hypothesis, observations and the provision of details relating to the purpose of the experiment, the conclusions, the variables that were present and a few other structures; however, these were repeated over and over and over, until the variable were discarded and the results/conclusions could be repeated over and over, creating a basis for a solid proof.
Nobody has to take me seriously. What I am saying is that no one has the right to call 'fact' that which is philosophy. That is what has happened with the theories of evolution. These theories benefit a segment of society. Therefore, they have been embraced, adopted, supported, furthered, while all other theories and/or alternatives have been discarded, and/or suppressed.
I am not an Evolutionary Scientist, however, there are hundreds of Scientists who, having to suffer relegation to outcast, for their lack of compromise have decided to accept being an outcast, rather than being the puppet of a system that dictates, indirectly, insidiously and most intelligently, the premise by which the citizens of the world will be nurtured.
That is what I'm saying. You don't have to agree. Obviously, you have no desire to consider there are options that, seemingly have nothing to do with 'religion' but have everything in fact, to do with religion.
Calling itself irreligious, this science you defend is compromising the evidence you accept as true. No one can prove otherwise to you. You have to desire the truth yourself. If you consider that I will gain one particle of strength whether you choose to accept what I have shared with you, or not, then you are wrong.
I don't live to be right. I desire to know what is true. By passing Evolution off as a 'fact', despite the compromises made in order to do so, and the facetious platforms that will be erected in order to accomplish the feat, people will believe the deception. This isn't the first, or only deception that people have believed. History is full of lies, and yes, many have been attached to 'religion'.
I don't adhere to any of the lies that have propelled individuals to commit heinous crimes in the name of 'religion'. That's why I don't follow a 'church' structure as such.
Emile, I don't expect you to see anything my way. Perhaps though, you might think about what actually is; and then come to your own conclusions. That is my standard. I believe no one. I check for myself.
If what I posted happened to be linked onto a 'creationist' site... oh well... the fact is, the Organization I hoped to retrieve the information from only had archives dating back as far as 1997. Otherwise, I would have used their own website for the quote. (Although, in thinking I could get my hands on [i]their actually site sharing this information would really have been hoping too much.)
Greetings to you, In THE NAME of my SHEPHERD, CHAMPION, my FRIEND! YESHUA of Nazareth. Amen.
I think I understand where you are coming from. You're afraid. You believe that to accept truths that we have found about the history of this planet will negate beliefs you hold as truths. You think facts stand in defiance of God.
I don't really understand the lack of faith. If you believe God created everything wouldn't arguing against hard evidence be the same as arguing against God? Why would a creator create a reality that you were supposed to pretend wasn't here? It doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
So in other words, I am supposed to listen to you, who has only done a few internet searches in a mere few hours (with a closed mind) than to scientists who have dedicated their lives to science? Not to mention that the bible offers absolutely no proof to any of its claims. You refuse to see this. You refuse to see the many reasons why evolution is taught. Its actually quite sad.
Of course, if youd rather believe god made man of dirt and a woman from his rib and that a talking snake in a garden convinced a silly woman to eat an apple thus giving god no choice but to punish mankind for all of eternity, thats your choice. An omniscient god that saw this coming! Kind of unfair, considering god also created that evil talking snake. No offense but if you take this into consideration and the fact that god also drowned the entire world except for noah and a few animals, your god makes hitler look like an amateur.
Ever hear the song Gutless by Hole? It has this great line: " I really don't miss God, but I sure do miss santa claus." Pretty much sums up my feelings.
You said: So in other words, I am supposed to listen to you, who has only done a few internet searches in a mere few hours (with a closed mind) than to scientists who have dedicated their lives to science?
You are free to believe anything or anyone you choose. I have not imposed my beliefs on you. What I have done is stated the platform that is used as the standard for American Education, as Positionally stated by the authorities that make those rules.
You seem intelligent enough to pick it up from there. You don't need my help. You have made clear what you think of G'D and The Bible. Yours, is the liberty to believe what you will, without reprecussion or mockery.
You said: Not to mention that the bible offers absolutely no proof to any of its claims.
That isn't true. However, again, it's what you have chosen to believe. I will not impinge my faith on you. And, you may think me sad, but in actuality, I'm quite happy. I don't let myself be dumbed down by what elitists present as truth for the masses, while making every effort to distract me from anything that might give me the power to think for myself.
You said: Of course, if youd rather believe god made man of dirt and a woman from his rib and that a talking snake in a garden convinced a silly woman to eat an apple thus giving god no choice but to punish mankind for all of eternity, thats your choice.
Yes. I most certainly do prefer to believe this. Why? Because I actually have a relationship with the G'D you don't believe in. HE's not a figment of my imagination either. Can I prove it to you? HE Can. But will HE? Only HE Knows when and if that moment will come... and that was precisely what this entire Challenge was about in fact.. not about Evolution.
You said: An omniscient god that saw this coming! Kind of unfair, considering god also created that evil talking snake. No offense but if you take this into consideration and the fact that god also drowned the entire world except for noah and a few animals, your god makes hitler look like an amateur.
My G'D is AMAZING. Albeit, HE IS PURE, HOLY, RIGHTEOUS and POWERFUL. I'll be interested to see if you will make the "'making hitler look like an amateur" statement to HIS Face, should you be judged for it one day. But my hope is you won't. My hope is you'll come to know HIM as I know HIM, and you'll realize that all the pronouncements you've made against HIM are actually lies that 'talking snake' has tethered to your brain, so you would blame G'D, hate G'D and to his delight, never come to KNOW G'D.
I've never heard of your song. This I do know though: If I were to fall out of relationship with G'D, for whatever reason... well...let me just say, I'll be glad to say 'later' to this world a minute before I would ever deny HIM... and by the assault against HIM on this thread alone, I may well have to do so, at some point in the near future.
G'D BLESS you, AmyMarie, in THE NAME of YESHUA, my STRENGTH and SHIELD in a flying arrows world...
... I'm not sure why I like you, but I do. Thanks for your comments.
The mere fact you think there is enough water on earth to cover the entire planet tells much about your ability to reason. There is only so much water on this planet and simply not enough to flood the world. But supposing by some wild stretch of the imagination the earth was flooded, so where did the water drain off to after the event was over? Your answer will tell much about your ability to use reason and logic. That is, if you are able to give a coherent answer at all.
My god Moe blesses you!
Well you surely stirred the pot with this post, well done, the demons are buzzing around our resident secularist crew and the agitation is great to watch.
Loved the quote by the educationalists, and your logic is impeccable, no wonder they have all gone on the attack, you have lifted the lid off the ants nest, and they are all milling around trying to see who let in the light.
Hopefully they will not scurry back to the lower depths of the ants nest to escape the revelation.
"Essentially, what the Association says about evolution, is that this subject needs to be taught to our children, in schools beginning at the Elementary level through to University levels compromising the ethics of Science by stating that even though this can never be proven, as man, according to this theory is the product of the unknown; this postion shall not only be accepted by the Scientific community, but shall be the only one accepted by the Scientific community. "
Love it, no wonder they are in a frenzy!
God truly does work in mysterious ways, glad He sent you here to us!
Apparently you didn't read what us heathens wrote. I didn't write out of anger. Im actually quite amused at the absurdity of the "research" done that I couldn't help but comment.
Same here, but they just love a chance to talk about the demons.
Please don't take the 'demon' remark as directed at you. That isn't the case. Your comments and input are welcome here. I appreciate the fact that I'm not the only female in the discussion; although, I never do like being alone on the front lines...
Since we see things so diversely, that can't be helped, but I do want you to know nobody thinks you are evil... not by a longshot.
Accept my apologies, if that remark in some way seemed directed at you... I am certain it was not...
BLESSINGS to you, both.
In JESUS' NAME.
In other words, if your brain is working, it is being controlled by invisible goblins.
No, that's not how it works. Remains of bodies decompose quickly after death. Fossilization does not occur expect under very specific conditions, which are rare.
Since there is no evidence to refute evolution, the creationists only avenue is to attack the scientists themselves by creating conspiracy theories.
Then, the creationist will turn to their holy books for advice and comfort and to rail against us all with doom and gloom.
Dearest Toubled Man,
You said: No, that's not how it works. Remains of bodies decompose quickly after death. Fossilization does not occur expect under very specific conditions, which are rare.
Fossilization occurs over hundreds of thousands of years, according to other statements you've made. Well, then, by the same token Dinosaurs have been found, in fossilized states, your 'missing link' species should have been found by the myriads. Are there specific conditions that you can prove exist, in order to create the special fossils you need to prove evolution?
You said: Since there is no evidence to refute evolution, the creationists only avenue is to attack the scientists themselves by creating conspiracy theories.
What I provided was proof that Scientific Institutions[/i] have declared compromise in order to refute any and all theories [b]other than those theories they/you embrace. That's not a conspiracy theory. That's a fact!
Dearest Randy Godwin,
Interesting name, by the way.
You said: I suggest you give up studying evolution at this point. It's obvious you do not understand half of what you are stating about the subject.
You can't fool me into believing I am ignorant of what I have researched. I am very thorough in my research. So, you can point your finger and call me names, like a good little boy, or you can prove me wrong.
Go to your church and rely on the words of your preacher as you've always done. Don't try to understand that which you are incapable of. Bible belt Baptist, I bet
I'm Canadian. We have no Bible belts here... unfortunately. As for Church, well, I spent the first 27 years of my faith outside of any Institution of faith. I left Catholicism and stayed away from everything except THE WORD of G'D and my own research/educational resources. I've never relied on the words of any preacher, except the ONE I TRUST, YESHUA HAMASCIACH.
When you live up to one of HIS Model phrases then come back and call me ignorant, if you like.
BLESSINGS to you both, Gentleman, in THE NAME of THE ONE WHO HOLDS the earth in The Palm of HIS Hand, YESHUA, CAPTAIN of HOSTS, ANGEL of G'D! Amen,.
I cannot help it if you labor under delusion while trying to understand evolution. You simply cannot understand why fossils are found or not and why primate fossils are harder to find than those of the dinosaurs. It's very simple, dinosaurs have existed hundreds of millions of years whereas humans and their ancestors have only been around a fraction of that time.
The iceman mummy is over 5,000 years old and it is simply a miracle he was preserved so long because of the particular place his body was found. A shallow depression protected his body from the glaciers slowly sliding down the mountain over the 5,000+ year period. Small populations of humans and their ancestors make it almost impossible to find complete skeletons of early man, but it doesn't mean they did not exist.
The Bible is simply old tales made up by common men, as is the god it proposes to represent. You do not want to believe this and so you will use any excuse to deny facts showing the novel to be false. You do not seek truth with your research, only justification for your sad religious beliefs. I suggest you try not to use science in your posts as you harm your argument much more than help it. Seriously!
Hey there, Randy, (Is it okay if I call you Randy?) I'll edit if not... let me know...
You said: you labor under delusion while trying to understand evolution.
I'm not trying to understand Evolution. After my research, although I admit I cannot be registered into any Scientific societies (as per my position) I have refreshed my memory and reinforced my view.
This was never about me proving my understanding related to evolution. This was about my stating plainly in the beginning (to which I was waylaid and mocked) that evolution is not a fact, it is a theory. I stand by my claim.
You said: You simply cannot understand why fossils are found or not and why primate fossils are harder to find than those of the dinosaurs. It's very simple, dinosaurs have existed hundreds of millions of years whereas humans and their ancestors have only been around a fraction of that time.
The iceman mummy is over 5,000 years old and it is simply a miracle he was preserved so long because of the particular place his body was found. A shallow depression protected his body from the glaciers slowly sliding down the mountain over the 5,000+ year period. Small populations of humans and their ancestors make it almost impossible to find complete skeletons of early man, but it doesn't mean they did not exist.
We're not going to agree. That is clear. The fact that you want so desperately to make me feel that I should believe your claims, when everything you've just stated in these two paragraphs and more, is old news to me.
Why should it be such a miracle that a iceman mummy, over 5,000 years old was preserved? He was on ice! Have you heard of Cryonics?
The fact is this: until you bring me evidence, not a philosophy that promises to somehow join the molecular manifestations of human to an ancestrial lineage of beasts beginning from the one-celled organism through to the ape, PROVING using TRUE SCIENTIFIC METHODS, no unpredictable, impersonal, unsupervised, natural, temporal processes, then I won't believe the claims.
All the 'so-called evidence' that has been presented to humanity as proofs has been controversial. That's why some scientists have been happy to surrender their titles and positions. They would rather leave with INTEGRITY than follow the lie.
You are free to believe as you will. But if you want to change my mind... PROVE your claims. Otherwise, your attempts to make me feel ignorant have failed miserably. Sorry. I'm only a poor Canadian female, who thinks for myself. I don't follow the precepts of preachers, religion, no matter if it calls itself 'science', or men I've just met over a Forum.
BLESSINGS to you, in THE NAME of THE G'D you deny, but WHOM I KNOW LIVES! YESHUA HAMASCIACH, THE ALPHA and OMEGA! Amen.
LOL! You stand by a claim that evolution is not a fact right after admitting you're not trying to understand it.
Could you possibly be any more contradictory and dishonest?
Also entirely false. You will not change your beliefs or claims no matter what.
How can you say that when you don't even understand it?
Baloney. We can see where the lies are coming from.
Sure, call me Randy, it happens to be my name. Once again, if you can't understand how rare it is for an ancient be human body to found in its entirety--because of scavengers, the elements, and 10's of thousands of years--then we are indeed wasting our time discussing it.
So where exactly did you learn about your god if not from preachers or the novel? Did all of your knowledge just pop into your head directly fro the deity itself? Suggestion--throw a dead animal carcass into the woods and come back a few years later and tell me how many bones you find, then imagine what would be left after only 100 years, not to mention thousands. I think even you might understand the lack of human fossils we find then.
And believe me, I have better things to do than to try and make you understand basic science. You don't wish to understand it anyway or you wouldn't use such flimsy arguments in defense of your imaginary god. Besides, I certainly have no wish to honor an ancient deity who impregnates 13 year old betrothed virgins against their will. Or, drowns 99% of the life on earth, including sinful little babies, because he screwed up the first creation. Whoops! Do over!
There is no such thing as a "missing link" - that term is misleading and inaccurate.
Baloney. That is entirely false. It is very dishonest of you to say such things when they are not true.
How very sad it is when believers have to stoop to such levels.
Dearest Troubled Man,
You said: There is no such thing as a "missing link" - that term is misleading and inaccurate.
Tell the Scientists who are demanding more than just the superficial evidence evolution uses to substantiate itself thus far.
As for the rest of what you said, honestly, I don't have time... I have a book I want to continue writing.
You can call me sad all the way to the grave, if it makes you happier. Of course, I'm not, and you would be wrong, but go for it. Enjoy the rest of your day. I'm done for now...
You can continue making fun of me... I promise I won't be back to check...
BLESSINGS to you in THE NAME of THE MASTER of THE UNIVERSE! YESHUA, KING of Kings. FAITHFUL and TRUE. Amen.
I was going to say, "The Thread That Never Ends...". But your posts are getting shorter. We appreciate that.
You are just making that up. Scientists are making no such demands? Why do you keep saying such things? Horrible, dishonest behavior.
So tell us about the Piltdown man and Lucy. What did they call them. Missing links? Yes, that is what they said.
Out of the curiosity to better understand where you coming from I must ask you if you believe man coexisted with dinosaurs?
And how old do you believe the earth is?
Well, if I recall correctly, there are man's tracks and dinosaur tracks in the same strata in Texas. I have heard that, but I am not certain that it is true. As for the age of the earth, I would guess a bilion or maybe a trilion. It is very old.
Thank you. You believe it was possible for dinosaurs and humans to have existed together. How could someone possibly say our education system is bad?
Well, I could say it is bad because Obama said that Hawaii is in Asia. Is that bad for a Harvard grad.? And he said we had 57 states. Well, our education system is bad.
So how many "fake messiahs" and religious con men have there been in the history of the world, Don? Does this mean there is no real messiah? Using your reasoning this would indicate there is no such creature, correct?
Well, Randy, I thought the subject was evolution. But if you want to change it, there are many false teachers and false Messiahs. But that does not mean there is not a real Messiah. The fact that something false is claiming to be the real proves there is something real doesn't it? Otherwise it would not be a believable fake. However, the piltdown man was a hoax. Many so-called scientists believed it was real. But so far there is no transitional being. They do keep looking for one and that assumes they believe one exists. Their opinion--not mine.
Unless one believes in supernatural beings who have no history of their own creation there certainly had to have been perhaps many examples of humans evolving in different ways. There are certainly more facts supporting this than in your mythical god scenario.
There is no mythical god scenario. We are discussing evolution. Not myth. So the evidence either shows that man evolved from monkey or he is a separate creation.
And of course, you have no evidence unless there is a missing link that shows half man and half monkey. That is the creature evoltuionists have been seeking for generations. Does one exist or not?
Hey Don, not to ruffle your feathers, but this topic isn't about evolution and Randy was only pointing out how much the OP didn't know about evolution. Nothing more, nothing less.
The topic is actually religion based on the OP. Just a thought.
Well, I must be mistaken. The only people talking about religion are those who believe in evolution bashing those who ask questions about evolution. Read the posts and see what you think about that. Just a thought.
Well, I suppose pointing out ignorance may be construed as "bashing" by some.
You cannot point out itgnorance unless you prove someone wrong. So far you have failed to do that.
No one is claiming men evolved from monkeys, Don. They simply have a common ancestor, as do horses and zebras, all of the feline family, as well as all dogs, wolves, coyotes, and foxes.
As I stated earlier, there may have been many transitional primates before man became the creature he is today. It doesn't have to be a single creature with total transition from apelike creature to modern man. And we do have examples of some of these creatures and will no doubt find many