nobody can deny the existence of God

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daeemominposted 15 years ago
CONGRATULATING AN ATHEIST
Normally, when I meet an atheist, the first thing I like to do is to congratulate him and say, " My special congratulations to you", because most of the people who believe in God are doing blind belief - he is a Christian, because his father is a Christian; he is a Hindu, because his father is a Hindu; the majority of the people in the world are blindly following the religion of their fathers. An atheist, on the other hand, even though he may belong to a religious family, uses his intellect to deny the existence of God; what ever concept or qualities of God he may have learnt in his religion may not seem to be logical to him.
My Muslim brothers may question me, "Zakir, why are you congratulating an atheist?" The reason that I am congratulating an atheist is because he agrees with the first part of the Shahada i.e. the Islamic Creed, â??La ilaahaâ?? - meaning â??there is no Godâ??. So half my job is already done; now the only part left is â??il lallahâ?? i.e. â??BUT ALLAHâ?? which I shall do Insha Allah. With others (who are not atheists) I have to first remove from their minds the wrong concept of God they may have and then put the correct concept of one true God.
LOGICAL CONCEPT OF GOD

My first question to the atheist will be: "What is the definition of God?" For a person to say there is no God, he should know what is the meaning of God. If I hold a book and say that â??this is a penâ??, for the opposite person to say, â??it is not a penâ??, he should know what is the definition of a pen, even if he does not know nor is able to recognise or identify the object I am holding in my hand. For him to say this is not a pen, he should at least know what a pen means. Similarly for an atheist to say â??there is no Godâ??, he should at least know the concept of God. His concept of God would be derived from the surroundings in which he lives. The god that a large number of people worship has got human qualities - therefore he does not believe in such a god. Similarly a Muslim too does not and should not believe in such false gods.
If a non-Muslim believes that Islam is a merciless religion with something to do with terrorism; a religion which does not give rights to women; a religion which contradicts science; in his limited sense that non-Muslim is correct to reject such Islam. The problem is he has a wrong picture of Islam. Even I reject such a false picture of Islam, but at the same time, it becomes my duty as a Muslim to present the correct picture of Islam to that non-Muslim i.e. Islam is a merciful religion, it gives equal rights to the women, it is not incompatible with logic, reason and science; if I present the correct facts about Islam, that non-Muslim may Inshallah accept Islam.
Similarly the atheist rejects the false gods and the duty of every Muslim is to present the correct concept of God which he shall Insha Allah not refuse.
(You may refer to my article, â??Concept of God in Islamâ??, for more details)
QURâ??AN AND MODERN SCIENCE
The methods of proving the existence of God with usage of the material provided in the â??Concept of God in Islamâ?? to an atheist may satisfy some but not all.
Many atheists demand a scientific proof for the existence of God. I agree that today is the age of science and technology. Let us use scientific knowledge to kill two birds with one stone, i.e. to prove the existence of God and simultaneously prove that the Qurâ??an is a revelation of God.
If a new object or a machine, which no one in the world has ever seen or heard of before, is shown to an atheist or any person and then a question is asked, " Who is the first person who will be able to provide details of the mechanism of this unknown object? After little bit of thinking, he will reply, â??the creator of that object.â?? Some may say â??the producerâ?? while others may say â??the manufacturer.â?? What ever answer the person gives, keep it in your mind, the answer will always be either the creator, the producer, the manufacturer or some what of the same meaning, i.e. the person who has made it or created it. Donâ??t grapple with words, whatever answer he gives, the meaning will be same, therefore accept it.
SCIENTIFIC FACTS MENTIONED IN THE QURâ??AN: for details on this subject please refer to my book, â??THE QURâ??AN AND MODERN SCIENCE â?? COMPATIBLE OR INCOMPATIBLE?
THEORY OF PROBABILITY
In mathematics there is a theory known as â??Theory of Probabilityâ??. If you have two options, out of which one is right, and one is wrong, the chances that you will chose the right one is half, i.e. one out of the two will be correct. You have 50% chances of being correct. Similarly if you toss a coin the chances that your guess will be correct is 50% (1 out of 2) i.e. 1/2. If you toss a coin the second time, the chances that you will be correct in the second toss is again 50% i.e. half. But the chances that you will be correct in both the tosses is half multiplied by half (1/2 x 1/2) which is equal to 1/4 i.e. 50% of 50% which is equal to 25%. If you toss a coin the third time, chances that you will be correct all three times is (1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2) that is 1/8 or 50% of 50% of 50% that is 12Â½%.
A dice has got six sides. If you throw a dice and guess any number between 1 to 6, the chances that your guess will be correct is 1/6. If you throw the dice the second time, the chances that your guess will be correct in both the throws is (1/6 x 1/6) which is equal to 1/36. If you throw the dice the third time, the chances that all your three guesses are correct is (1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6) is equal to 1/216 that is less than 0.5 %.
Let us apply this theory of probability to the Qurâ??an, and assume that a person has guessed all the information that is mentioned in the Qurâ??an which was unknown at that time. Let us discuss the probability of all the guesses being simultaneously correct.
At the time when the Qurâ??an was revealed, people thought the world was flat, there are several other options for the shape of the earth. It could be triangular, it could be quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, heptagonal, octagonal, spherical, etc. Lets assume there are about 30 different options for the shape of the earth. The Qurâ??an rightly says it is spherical, if it was a guess the chances of the guess being correct is 1/30.
The light of the moon can be its own light or a reflected light. The Qurâ??an rightly says it is a reflected light. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/2 and the probability that both the guesses i.e the earth is spherical and the light of the moon is reflected light is 1/30 x 1/2 = 1/60.
Further, the Qurâ??an also mentions every living thing is made of water. Every living thing can be made up of either wood, stone, copper, aluminum, steel, silver, gold, oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, oil, water, cement, concrete, etc. The options are say about 10,000. The Qurâ??an rightly says that everything is made up of water. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/10,000 and the probability of all the three guesses i.e. the earth is spherical, light of moon is reflected light and everything is created from water being correct is 1/30 x 1/2 x 1/10,000 = 1/60,000 which is equal to about .0017%.
The Qurâ??an speaks about hundreds of things that were not known to men at the time of its revelation. Only in three options the result is .0017%. I leave it upto you, to work out the probability if all the hundreds of the unknown facts were guesses, the chances of all of them being correct guesses simultaneously and there being not a single wrong guess. It is beyond human capacity to make all correct guesses without a single mistake, which itself is sufficient to prove to a logical person that the origin of the Qurâ??an is Divine.
CREATOR IS THE AUTHOR OF THE QURâ??AN
The only logical answer to the question as to who could have mentioned all these scientific facts 1400 years ago before they were discovered, is exactly the same answer initially given by the atheist or any person, to the question who will be the first person who will be able to tell the mechanism of the unknown object. It is the â??CREATORâ??, the producer, the Manufacturer of the whole universe and its contents. In the English language He is â??Godâ??, or more appropriate in the Arabic language, â??ALLAHâ??.
QURâ??AN IS A BOOK OF SIGNS AND NOT SCIENCE
Let me remind you that the Qurâ??an is not a book of Science, â??S-C-I-E-N-C-Eâ?? but a book of Signs â??S-I-G-N-Sâ?? i.e. a book of ayaats. The Qurâ??an contains more than 6,000 ayaats, i.e. â??signsâ??, out of which more than a thousand speak about Science. I am not trying to prove that the Qurâ??an is the word of God using scientific knowledge as a yard stick because any yardstick is supposed to be more superior than what is being checked or verified. For us Muslims the Qurâ??an is the Furqan i.e. criteria to judge right from wrong and the ultimate yardstick which is more superior to scientific knowledge.
But for an educated man who is an atheist, scientific knowledge is the ultimate test which he believes in. We do know that science many a times takes â??Uâ?? turns, therefore I have restricted the examples only to scientific facts which have sufficient proof and evidence and not scientific theories based on assumptions. Using the ultimate yardstick of the atheist, I am trying to prove to him that the Qurâ??an is the word of God and it contains the scientific knowledge which is his yardstick which was discovered recently, while the Qurâ??an was revealed 1400 year ago. At the end of the discussion, we both come to the same conclusion that God though superior to science, is not incompatible with it.
SCIENCE IS ELIMINATING MODELS OF GOD BUT NOT GOD
Francis Bacon, the famous philosopher, has rightly said that a little knowledge of science makes man an atheist, but an in-depth study of science makes him a believer in God. Scientists today are eliminating models of God, but they are not eliminating God. If you translate this into Arabic, it is La illaha illal la, There is no god, (god with a small â??gâ?? that is fake god) but God (with a capital â??Gâ??).
Surah Fussilat:
"Soon We will show them our signs in the (farthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things?"
[Al-Quran 41:53]
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The only question I have for you is, what do you think a-thiesm means?
  What do you think an atheist is?
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  aka-djposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Not sure what his definition is but "theist" is one who holds to the "one god" (thory, for want of a better description), and an a-theist is the one who stands in denial of, or opposition to that view.
  That's my definition.(not that anyone cares I guess)
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  To what view? In your own words. What is a theologist view?
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  aka-djposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It comes from two root words.
  "Theos", Greek word for god.
  "logos", Greek word for "word, truth, idea, concept, etc"
  A theologist, then is one who studies/seeks the truth (concepts, ideas etc) relating to God.
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So why are other concepts left out?
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  aka-djposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Not sure by what you mean "other concepts"
  In the broad sense, a theologist would not be (say) just christian. You could say ( and be correct lierally) any study of "god" is theology. So then "a-theism" opposes/denies any or all god(s).
  Did I clarify that enough?
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Then what is God?
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  Andrew0208posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  God is a Spirit. This is not understood and explained mentally or carnally. The fact that some people deny the existence will truely let you know, He is a Spirit as He is no mortal. He is not an idea or a feeling but simply a Spirit. Question; Who is the Spirit? Think about it. I will be right back, stay tuned!
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  aka-djposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Good analysis.
  However, based on your explanation of probability, let me suugest this to you.
  The God of the Bible, is NOT the same as Allah. Therefore your dillema is, you have a 50% chance to follow the right one!
  What if you choose the wrong one? (all-be-it, your faith is genuine and passionate.)
  It's still a gamble that has eternal risk/reward attached to it.
  All humanity (I hope) acknowledges a clear distinction between truth and falsehood.
  Deception is non-existent in the absenece of truth. Therefore, one can logically conclude, there is only ONE truth. Making all else, false, or deception.
  The challenge (for mankind) is to seek out and follow truth.
  One more thing that I would like to make clear. You say that the Quaran presented certain scientific truths 1400 years ago,+/- . That's fine, I can't argue the point, "but" the Old Testament, written hundreds of years BC, has taught the very same thing. (preceding your example by almost double.)
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The God of the Bible, is NOT the same as Allah.
  Its obvious your knowledge is limited otherwise one cannot make such an ignorant statement which is being fanatical.
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  daeemominposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You said that the God of the Bible is not the same as Allah.
  
  In Islam God is one God in the most basic, simple, and elementary meaning of the word. He has no children, no parents nor any equal. In Islam God is known by the name "Allah" and more than 99 other venerated names, such as "the Merciful," "the Gracious," "the All-Powerful," etc
  Christians do not have a clear concept of God. According to them God is three gods merged into one God. This one God is called a Trinity. However, to say that God is three is a blasphemy of the highest order. All three parts of the Trinity are "coequal" "co-eternal" and "the same substance." For this reason, this doctrine is described as "a mystery."
  Christianity has not even a clear concept of God.
  
  You said, “The Old Testament, written hundreds of years BC, has taught the very same thing. (Preceding your example by almost double.)”
  The problem is that the Bible you are having in your hand is not fully authentic. It is not available in its original language in which it was revealed. It was written years after its revelation. There are so many versions of Bible. In addition, there are so many contradictions in it.
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  aka-djposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Not so!
  The Old Testament is (virtually) identical to the Jewish Torah, etc, and as for original language, there is no discreppancies of any substancial worth from the translations (out of Greek) to current versions. (Esp, KJV and NKJV)
  As for contradictions, well, that's a matter of opinnion. You can find things that don't make sense, (therefore appear contradictory)
  I take it you are not a Christian.
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  daeemominposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You said “There are no discrepancies of any substantial worth from the translations (out of Greek) to current versions.”
  It means that discrepancies though to some extent exist.
  Is the Bible literally word of God? The story of its compilation does not suggest that it is literally the word of God.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Take the example of the Holy Guru Granth Sahib.Its a compilation of various spiritual poets who praised the One Light.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru_Granth_Sahib
  These saints belonged to different social and religious backgrounds, including Hindus and Muslims, cobblers and even untouchables.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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  daeemominposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The first thing is that Jesus Christ was not the founder of Christianity. He invited people towards total submission to God. He did not ask them to worship him. He was only a messenger of God.
  Old Testament and New Testament both were written years after the time of Moses and Jesus. No body can vouch for their total authenticity.
  Unlike Bible, the Holy Quran was written as it was revealed from God. you must be knowing that it was revealed in stages over a period of 23 years. Whenever the revelation of some verses took place Prophet Muhammad used to summon some of his companions who knew writing and asked them to write the revealed verses. Thus compilation of Quran took place. There is no any discrepancy in Quran. Not a difference of a single letter. Millions of Muslims recite it by heart.
  We are not fighting over this. What I want to say is that the Bible was revealed by God. But it is not available in its original form. Quran is the last revealed book of God. And it is for the entire humanity. It is up to the people. They may believe it or not. Our work is to make things clear. Allah does not will to compel or coerce anyone into believing.
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  aka-djposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Without Jesus, there IS no Christianity!
  I think that is foundational, whether you like it or not.
  PS, The first five books of the Old Testament were written BY Moses, not by others after him.
  Jews will vouch for the authenticity of the OT.! The Dead Sea Scrolls confirm almost every word.
  You really should do your homework.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I think both the Holy Quran and The Holy Bible are due to God or mans understanding of God.Both are holy books,masterpieces of the highest order. Both have come about due to God and both are equally great.
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  daeemominposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes both the Bible and the Holy Quran came from God. The same God who revealed the Bible says in the Holy Quran the people have made distortions in the Bible and this (the Quran) is the final text which is being revealed by me.
  See what Quran says:
  “Can ye (O ye men of faith) entertain that they will believe in you? - seeing that a party of them heard the word of Allah, and perverted it knowingly after they understood it.” (Chapter: 1, Verse: 75)
  There are more verses in Quran that says that how these people distorted the revelation of God for serving their desires.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes but the essence is the same -god exists and man can come in contact with him-which is the purpose of life.
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  daeemominposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No, the essence is not the same.
  Islam advocates monotheism. God is one. Like Him is none. If anybody associates someone with Him, he is wrong and will be punished. Because it is the right of God to give commands and to be worshipped.
  Christianity the concept of God is not clear. They themselves are confused. They can neither understand trinity nor can make others understand it.
  The existence of God is not a matter of debate. Only fools can deny His existence. How can be there a creature without the creator?
  The purpose of life is not to come in contact with God. The purpose of life is to seek His pleasure by obeying His orders and by leading our lives as per His guidance.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Life is ying and yang -both are correct.The purpose of life is to get enlightened or actually see and come in contact with the creator ,then go home when one dies,
  Unto Allah is your return and he is able to do all things-The Holy Quran.
  
  You and the Christians and all of humanity everything even the insects and animals come form God and will go back to God.Get to know god is the meaning of all Religions.
  All is God or all is Allah.
  Remember Jesus says "Me and my Father"meaning me and God two separate things
  Then says"Me and my father are One" he has fused with God and become a Godman just like Mohammed or any saint or sage.
  Like Zaratushtra says there is an invisible bridge to be crossed-
  Man - becomes God-man then God.
  
  After enlightenment one does work for God just like Jesus or Mohammed did,or work for their higher selves the superentity.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Mahavira- live and let live
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  daeemominposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It is not you or me who will decide the purpose of life. It has already been decided by the life giver. To know this we should see His scripture.
  What is enlightenment? Who will decide this? What if a person is roaming around is darkness and calling himself enlightened?
  With major between them, how can all religions be true?
  What you are talking about is not a guidance sent by God. It is your own religion, man-made religion. The problem comes here.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What is that person has seen the light like the prophets before him did and is now guiding others to the light.Remember many did not believe Jesus and Mohammed but they were correct.
  Also like mentioned before the Holy Quran and The Holy Bible were written by their followers and not the prophets themselves .God guides through man.
  
  Enlightenment is fusing with the Light or Allah or God or Jevovah or Shiva.
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  Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hi mohitmisra when I noticed that you posted this word Zaratushtra I realized that it was very similar to the name Zoroastra. When I did a Google search for Zaratushtra there was a link to Zoroastrianism on the front page. Which leads me to believe that Zaratushtra and Zoroastra are the same names.
  
  Just recently I was introduced to the name of Semiramus. Semiramus is not in the Bible so I did some research and found that Semiramus was the wife of Nimrod. From Genesis 10 we see that Noah (Noe), of the great flood had 3 sons, Sem, Cham (Ham), and Japheth. Cham (Ham) had 4 sons, Chus, and Mesram, and Phuth, and Chanaan. Chus begot Nemrod or Nimrod. The beginning of Nimrod's kingdom was Babylon, and Arach, and Achad, and Chalanne in the land of Sennaar. "And he was a stout hunter before the Lord."
  
  Now talking about Semiramus I will quote what my research shows that she did next.
  
  Nimrod was the first man after the great flood to be worshiped as a god. And Semiramus was the first to be worshiped as a goddess. Semiramus is the mother of harlots that is mentioned in Revelations 17 and Revelations 18. Semiramus and Nimrod became Osirus and Isis, Balaam (Baal), Molach, Jezabel, Budda and the many Greek gods like Venus and even today with the god of the Da Vinci files crowd.
  
  Some wrongfully include the Blessed Virgin Mary in the above group. But satan likes to mock God's word with a counterfeit parallel. You could say that satan predestined this persecution of Mary before Mary was even born, through Semiramus. Revelations 12 starts off by saying "And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars". That woman represents both the Blessed Virgin Mary and the church of God. So those that persecute Mary also persecute the church of God.
  
  Spiritual warfare between good and evil has been going on since lucifer was kicked out of heaven and it will continue till the serpents head is crushed as mentioned in Genesis 3:15
  
  I believe God will give Mary the honor seeing the serpent lies in wait for her heel in a lot of statues and pictures.
  
  No mohitmisra, man can not become a god like Nimrod (Zoroastra). Christianity has just one God.
  
  Mike
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Zoroaster or Zaratushtra the founder of the Parsee Religion is a prophet or enlightened one like Jesus.What Jesus is for the Christians ,Zaratushtra is for the Parsees.He was also called mad during his time and was jailed I think for 14 years.I got enlightened in the middle of the Atlantic ocean and today I can do what a normal human cannot dream of doing-this I do by using Gods help or rather working for him.
  I said God man --- man must become God man - the God part happens only in Death -total fusion with the creator.
  
  This is where the Muslims differ in their philosophy with the Christians .The Prophet is not considered God but God-man. Both are okay.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Are we beginning to see the light yet Mohit?
  
  Many of the people who you have been agreeing with just because they say "god" and "love" and "light" - do not believe the same thing you do
  
  The christian god is an angry and jealous god. And the muslim god came later to correct the false christian religion. You yourself are an infidel as far as both are concerned and will burn in hell for all eternity because you think Jesus was "just another prophet."
  
  East is East........
  
  And yet so much the same..........
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Need to help correct this situation Mark,they or neither have seen God -I have.
  Also neither have really understood their prophet or their religion but many others have.
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  daeemominposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  There is only one GOD, the creator is this universe. There is no Christian god or Muslim god.
  God sent messengers from the very first day. The brought His messages.
  In every age people distorted the Message of God and followed their desires. Whenever this happened, God sent another messenger to correct them. Remember He is correcting any other god. There is only one God.
  Moses came to correct people. When his message was distorted by Jews, Jesus Christ came.
  Jesus invited people towards one God. His message was distorted and people invented a new religion called Christianity. They associated Jesus with God.
  Then Muhammad the last messenger came with the message of God to invited people towards God. God’s message in the form of Quran is in our hands.
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  Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hi daeemomin. I was wondering if you would take a couple of minutes to read a post on this other thread about half way down the page. I start it with "In defense of Islam in general." Then further down the page I post what both Muslims and Christians seen in Cairo, Egypt between 1968 and 1970. Then at the bottom of the page I posted some similarities between Islam and Christianity. I find the similarities fascinating. Maybe you could post a reply with your thoughts?
  
  Thanks
  Mike
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  make money your understanding is very good including what you said about the 1000 year rule of Christ has started..
  
  Just adding in- see Mark there are Christians and Muslims who understand God and his Prophets,they are brother religions. :)One wil also find the truth is the same for the Muslim,The Hindu or the Christian.
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  daeemominposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You said “There are no discrepancies of any substantial worth from the translations (out of Greek) to current versions.”
  It means that discrepancies though to some extent exist.
  Is the Bible literally word of God? The story of its compilation does not suggest that it is literally the word of God.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  According to them God is three gods merged into one God. This one God is called a Trinity
  Yes but then Jesus also says me and my father are one.God is one whether its the mulsims or Christians or hindus.Islam recognises Jesus as a great prophet.
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  Marisa Wrightposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  why do you say that? Surely there is only one God, the only difference is how different religions choose to interpret HIm
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  aka-djposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Simply because He reveals Himself in a "specific way", different from all others.
  Jesus is His Son, and in reality, God Himself, manifest in the flesh. He BECAME a man! NO other religion accepts that, nor teaches that. God would have to have multiple personalities, to fit the description of all the various deities in the world.
  All Christianity hinges on Jesus, ( esp. His resurrection). Without that you have NO Christianty! That is in total contrast to any other faith! So, my conclusion is ( along with all fellow believers) that God, as depicted in the Bible, IS different.
  Remember the first commandment!
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  AEvansposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Aka-DJ is correct and he is speaking of the TRINITY the father, the son and the holy spirit, so Muslims do not believe that Jesus was the son of God and that they should only pray to one God which is Allah:)
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The Muslims regard the prophets very highly but unlike the Christians or Hindus who believe there is no difference between the prophets or god,the muslims do not believe the same. The prophets are not in the same league as god.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I believe Christianity has come from Hinduism.The inner eye is what the Hindus call the third eye.
  Jevovah is the same as Brahma and is the same as Allah-identical exactly the same light-god-superentity.
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  Marisa Wrightposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No he wouldn't - remember all scriptures are written by mortal men, so in each case, God is depicted by a mere mortal based on that person's interpretation.
  
  Just like four people could meet you, and each one would write a different description of you, so four religions can easily see the same God in four different ways.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Very nice and simple explanation. yet eventually they are talking about the same thing .
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  daeemominposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You said that all the scripture were written by mortal men. It is true in case of bible and other scriptures but as far as Quran is concerned it was revealed upon Prophet Muhammad through angel Gabriel and He memorized it and taught to his companions who also memorized it. Prophet also dictated it to some companions who wrote it. Thus, Quran is not written by mortal men. It is literally the word of God.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  All holy books are written by enlightened ones or saints,prophets or god men.What she meant is that even the Prophets die.Yes knowledge does come through revelation that is correct.
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  Marisa Wrightposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I forgot to say, thank you Daeemomin. Very well put! Blind faith is never a good thing.
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  knslmsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  There is no way I was going to read all of that because it was way to long, but people can deny god's existence. God gave them a right to be dumb enough to think that we just happened. Big bang.
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knolyourselfposted 15 years ago
"(not that anyone cares I guess)" If anyone don't care I don't care.
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  aka-djposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That's why I put this "disclaimer" in, because I figured there would be those reading this that "don't".
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Make Moneyposted 15 years ago
From this simple dictionary we see that omnipotent means "having unlimited power".

If you accept that God is omnipotent then why could you not accept the three parts of the Trinity, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost?

Mike
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knolyourselfposted 15 years ago
They also have a trinity in Hinduism I believe. They are called the Creator, Prserver and Destroyer.
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VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years ago
GOD in Hinduism is "Giver--the Brahma--one who creates and gives us to the world." "Operator- Vishnu-- one who operates or protects our lives" and "Destroyer- Shiva- one who takes us away after completion of our endeavour on earth". Everyone have their own faith. Why do we have to say here in this forum "your belief is right - my belief is right" and everything else. No one has the right to deny other religious beliefs. If we believe God has sent us to this world, then we should not contradict other faiths. He would not have sent us here for creating controversies.
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  weblogposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Then, why it happens? Do you have an answer? Is that so called God having fun with these controversies?
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  May be ! Just for fun..., he may have sent us to entertain him. It happens only when everyone likes to establish his own faith in others' places. You dont believe in god...? very happy. You will have extra time for doing your work.
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  weblogposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  If there's a God, I'd be delighted to meet/feel/see him I just don't spend time in searching for him, I have nothing to request from an unknown Super Power, I'm capable of anything that I can achieve by hardwork in my limits. And, as you may know we have several living Gods, can say 'love is God'..'Work is worship' and so on, and how about our parents, friends and well-wishers? I'm happy, contented with my above said Gods
  
  I know you are an Indian, I'm also Are you from South India? Which state? Tamilnadu?
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I am searching for God, whenever I have time, but in vain. I believe in myself. My mother is my God; she gave me to this earth. In short, satisfying others and prayer to parents are more than prayer to god... I think. You are very much correct ! I am from the same Periyarland, ie., Tamilnadu! .... Periyar... he is my father's deity! But I differ in some ways, and cannot subscribe to his policies, which are impractical.
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  weblogposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It's nice to know. I'm not sure if you have joined HP for the sole purpose of participating in forums, but never mind. Just curious to read if you can post a few of your thoughts in the form of hubs
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  First, Forums attracted me to participate in HP.
  Now, after seeing the discussions on several topics, I think I will also be forced to post a hub. "Legacy of Indira Gandhi", "Himalayas- Mountains of Destiny", "Sikkim, a new travel destination", "Srilankan Tamils struggling for equal rights", posted by me have not received enough interest. Just because there are less Indians in HP.
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  dingdongposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I agree, but not fully. There are lot of Indian hubbers(including NRIs) here, but only few participate in forums. Nice to see you around here
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ms.dingdong, happy for your instant response... more happy that you are from South India. Will be more happy if your name is shown as it is... Would have been more happy if you had not snubbed me in some other place in this HP.
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  weblogposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Nice, Venu. You can start hubbing anytime, I'm sure hubs will get more response as people come from search engines and many outer sources. I'm saying this as you are much concerned about getting attention like you stated. Forums are limited to hubbers, so you can think about it.
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ms.web, I am not "concerned" about getting attention, nor do I care for them. Are all the topics not important for Indians? Are the "limited hubbers" scared about these topics? How will I lose if they do not receive attention? I am not paying anything from my pocket, nor do I expect anything from others. "Padayappa" was a hit; "Baba" was not. Both are from the same man. One failure and one success. Would it affect him in any way?
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  weblogposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That's not exactly what I was referring to, though I liked your example.
  
  See, when you are bringing a topic about Tamils in Srilanka, let it be in Politics forum, how many people do you think can/will respond to that? Basically, one who responds to that message should be aware of the whole thing and also be interested in that topic. But, if you can post a detailed hub on the same topic, that would probably bring some visitors - as I mentioned already, Visitors from all other sources, not only hubbers.
  
  Please understand: I was suggesting you to write a hub, that doesn't mean I was asking you to stay away from forums.
  
  Even then it is your choice. I'm all aware of the difference between forum messages and hubs. Coming to your example, not even Padayappa is/was a Hit Film if it is only for film festivals, the movie got success only because many people got it to watch in theatres. I would say forum messages are like movies screened on film festivals(only limited people, and interest does matter), and hubs are like movies screened on theatres.
  
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Two months ago, I wrote 2 hubs "India-US nuclear agreement" and "India-The phenomenon called India." Due to other engagements, I could not concentrate on them and were later flagged "substandard". I will try later... if time permits.
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  dingdongposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Dear Venu, not all the people are mentioning their real names here. Apart from that if you want to know a hubber more personally, you can contact them through email link provided on profile pages.
  
  Actually, if you had ever felt that I was harassing then I apologise for it. I thought I was trying to let you know nobody responded to you in other forums(mainly Politics forum) where you were wasting time on talking to yourself.
  
  Happy hubbing
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I think this is a forum provided by HP. Nobody cares whether it is responded or not. Writing in HP is itself talking to yourself. I need not waste any time in future. Because I have lived usefully throughout my life. Any time available to me here is only a pastime. I never take it seriously. Goodluck youngsters... dont waste your time.
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  you mean wasted time getting people to conform to you? right? that is what you mean right? No one is right but you right? right? lol
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Do not take everything negatively. I mentioned about myself. Advice to youngsters should be taken constructively and not related to HP. I am not so shortsighted....
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  dingdongposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hmmm OK
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aka-djposted 15 years ago
If Jehova/God is the same as Allah, why does He tell one group of people (say christians) to "love their enemies", and tell another group, (say the muslims) to kill Jews, Christians and infidels, and oh, not to forget their enemies?
That's INSANE!
NO WONDER so many of you don't believe! Neither would I, if God looked like that to me! ! !
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  Marisa Wrightposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Please show me where HE has said any such thing. And pointing to books where OTHER people have written down what they claim He said, doesn't count. Because anything that humans have written down, whether divinely inspired or not, is open to error and misinterpretation, especially when translated into other languages.
  
  By the way, Christians have killed more Muslims in the name of Christianity than vice versa, if you look back in history. Which I'm ashamed to say, since those Christians were my ancestors, too.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Perfect-
  Please show me where HE has said any such thing
  Please show us all-this will be the greatest or rather the scariest discovery of mankind.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The Muslims feel the same about Christains.-Why do they come to our land kill our brothers and rape our woman.
  This has reached a very dangerous situation and need sto be diffused by using intelligence and understanding. You and the Muslim are first human -your religion and country come second.
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  daeemominposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Did you ever read Quran?
  
  Every life is sacred in the sight of God. God has only permitted to fight those who exceed their limits, kill the innocents and spread mischief on earth
  Look what Allah says:
  •Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand retaliation or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life, for he is helped (by the Law) [17:33]
  •The recompense for an injury is an injury equal thereto (in degree): but if a person forgives and makes reconciliation, his reward is due from Allah: for (Allah) loves not those who do wrong. But indeed if any do help and defend themselves after a wrong (done) to them, against such there is no cause of blame. The blame is only against those who oppress men and insolently transgress beyond bounds through the land, defying right and justice: for such there will be a grievous penalty. And whoever is patient and forgiving, these most surely are actions due to courage [42:40-43]
  •Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them; [22:39]
  This verse lays down the precondition for all war in Islam: there must exist certain oppressive conditions on the people.
  •And fight in the cause of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits. And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from where they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque (in Makkah) until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the reward of the unbelievers. But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors. [2:190-192]
  God never ordered to kill Muslims either. But Christian did it. Don’t you remember crusades? They not only massacred Muslims but also massacred Jews. The history is filled your “benevolent act” persecuting Jews.
  If you can’t read Quran and blame Islam, let it be this way. But at least you must read your history
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  Writer Riderposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Not to dumb down that idea, but I have a hard time believing God is violent.
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Shadesbreathposted 15 years ago
Not hard to see how and why so many periods of holy death pop up in history as I watch this. So much "certainty" of "absolute truth" and words like "all humans acknowledge" stuff, and people actually using a "common dictionary" to support theological ideas. It's no wonder there is so much murder and misery endlessly commited in the name of God.

I notice NONE of these zealotry forums EVER argue about what's the best way to spread love and kindness; how to better accomodate the needs of the sick or under-priveleged; or any other act of selflessness, forgiveness or love. It's always: YOU are wrong and I have the truth. MY God is THE God; YOU are mislead, deceived and doomed to hell if you can't be SAVED by ME the righteous one.

I swear Jesus would look at threads like this and think, "Wow, the message was completely lost."
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Good to see you down here in the bowels of hubpages' forums
  
  I will let one of the zealots (well I guess you can consider me one too - or is that an anti-zealot?) explain why none of this is necessary
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  aka-djposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Just out of curiosity, who (in a broad sense) is responsible for starting (and maintaining) charitable, caring, humanitarian organizations around the world?
  Atheists?
  Humanists?
  Muslims?
  Hindu's etc.
  Or were they, by and large "christian"?
  Percentages will do.
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  Shadesbreathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  People who have to keep score on how many good deeds they do are probably doing them for the wrong reasons. I don't remember reading about Jesus counting up the number of people he healed or the prostitutes he didn't throw rocks at.
  
  I mean, at least some good gets done by religious ministries, but, it takes something from the spirit of altruism and charity to say, "Here starving child, here's some rice. If you come to my little tent church later, I'll give you some more over a sermon, because I love you, and want to share my Truth with you despite the fact that your family has believed in animistic Gods for thousands of years." Maybe a wink to the fact that they are starving because of those evil beliefs.
  
  And here's another question for you: Just out of curiosity, who (in a broad sense) is responsible for starting the most wars, inquisitions, hate campaigns, and persecuting organizations around the world?
  
  Atheists?
  Humanists?
  Muslims?
  Hindu's etc.
  Or were they, by and large "christian"?
  Percentages will do.
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  Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Not to boast, just to reply to your post. I sponsor a foster child from India. He is Hindu and there is never any mention about converting him to Christianity. The organization that I sponsor this foster child, Krishna through does not waste any money on advertising so I'll give them a plug here, Chalice.
  
  Regarding your question on who is responsible for ... ? The one on the top of the list. Want the proof?
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  AEvansposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  oh my, in the end of days brother will turn against brother , and so on do we see what is happening here? We all arguing our points and where does it get us? Is it resolved? WWJD?
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  Zarm Nefilinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I know where you are going with this one and it's hardly fair. Mao and Stalin were only two people and they administered only two organizations in the twentieth century.
  
  Wars, Inquisitions, hate campaigns, and genocide have a systematic pattern to them as it pertains to dogmatic religion of any sort. These patterns go back thousands upon thousands of years, communism is something that sprung up and those people killed under Stalin and Mao were killed by essentially two people. That's it. There were many Popes, and many Church organizations and even canonized Roman Catholic Saints that headed up Inquisitions. The same goes for the Muslims and the Protestants. The same even goes for the Jews whenever they were in power, just read the Old Testament. This kind of stuff is endemic to dogmatic religious belief.
  
  For crying outloud a single Deist could come along who takes power in Russia and slaughters all dissenters to his autocratic regime and then proceeds to nuke the entire Western Hemisphere and if you rely on numbers alone, then it could be then said that a Deist killed the most people and was responsible for the most deaths of any war. It's pointless to compare numbers in a day and age when the populations of the 20th and 19th centuries probably were greater than most all the centuries before them combined. It's a pattern in religious conviction that lead to the slaughter of people in those proceeding centuries through inquisitions and persecution and genocide. That pattern is undeniably rooted in the very essence of what it means to be seriously dogmatic, whether it is communism or religion. Stalin and Mao were two people and communism was something new. Dogmatic Religion is not new and has been doing it for a long time before Communism ever came around.
  
  The Catholic Church will no more admit that it was responsible for a brutal Inquisition under the direction of Francis Xavier against the people of India than the Turks will admit the Armenians were slaughtered by them after World War I. The sheer number of times that these kinds of things have taken place versus just the sheer numbers of people tallied dead definitely goes to religious people and religious institutions that instigated them and religious rhetoric that gave the moral justification for them. You don't get off the hook just because their was much more of a population in the 20th century when Communism came around. Also, most atheists in the "West" today are not communists and despite their misgivings about religion realize it is better to live and let live.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Very nicely written.All the prophets will be crying with what is happening .
  Look at the human first, his or her qualities.
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  Shadesbreathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah. I tell you man, I may be sort of pagan/agnostic... something else, still looking for answers... but I'm glad you agree. It's not about the book you read or the name that you use to describe that which is beyond our ability to comprehend or prove... it's about how you live in relation to the people around you. Good is good, and everyone knows a good deed when they see one. Everything else is blah-blah-blah.
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  Zarm Nefilinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That is a very good point, and it is one worth noting.
  
  People get on religion forums and they debate theology, rather than the consequences of various theology; and this seems to indicate that they have a hard time consciously coupling theology with things like how to better accommodate the needs of the sick or under privileged or spreading love and kindness. Even talking about forgiveness only comes up when it's an ex-christian or someone who is a victim of their religion, and somehow that person needs to forgive and forget or unrealistically expect to forgive and not forget. They very seldom talk about their own need to forgive people for serious wrongs personally done to them. It's all rather convenient and bogus.
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Shadesbreathposted 15 years ago
Heh, had to find a fun place to argue. Thought I had one on another thread, but the guys on there couldn't handle the concepts, so came over here figuring you might have sniffed out some worthy adversaries.

And you are a bit of a zealot, but at least you present support for your arguments that is verifiable and the things you say are grounded in logic rather than fallacy and specious language play.
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Mark Knowlesposted 15 years ago
No shortage here

Take a stroll through "Atheism Rules !"
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Shadesbreathposted 15 years ago
Actually I did, saw it was 75 pages long and after skimming about 12 pages willy-nilly, jumped to the end.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Best bits are in the early middle - then it started to repeat itself as new believers arrived but did not want to read the "god-hating," that went on because they already knew what it said, so used the same arguments......
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knolyourselfposted 15 years ago
"Or were they, by and large "christian"?
Percentages will do." World-wide I would guess Christians 5 maybe 7%.
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  Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It's hard to find those statistics but these lists might show an indication.
  From List of most charitable countries.
  
  Quote from this wikipedia on Charity (practice).
  
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knslmsposted 15 years ago
Oh and by the way congratulations, moron! http://hubpages.com/hub/Where-Has-All-T … -Came-From
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  As you seem to follow the teachings of Jesus Chrtist, perhaps you can answer me this simple question.
  
  Why do Christians always resort to insults and attacks when they come across some one who does not share their beliefs?
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  Shadesbreathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Because Jesus taught that "He who does not grovel before those who pronounce my name with authority is unworthy of respect and should be insulted and spat upon in a most holy fashion."
  
  Well, at least, I think he must have taught that based on how so many Christians act. I'll have to go back through my Bible to make sure, but, yeah, based on how so many Christians act, I'm sure he must have taught that somewhere.
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  Writer Riderposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No, he doesn't say that at all. That theory strays 100% away from what he was teaching. He basically says not to cast stones if you've sinned yourself.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Shadesbreath - You may need to borrow this when talking to some christians:
  
  I used to think I was making myself clear, but eventually realized that there are some who think, "If is written down, it MUST be true."
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  Writer Riderposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I know he was being saracastic but decided to make the point anyway.
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  knslmsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I can't say that I agree that they do. Why do I? Because I'm not a very good christian, and it was funny!
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AEvansposted 15 years ago
Why can't we all get along???? God only knows I can only dream that the he comes down and pops everybody on there noggins:)
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Writer Riderposted 15 years ago
You know, I believe God is not a religion.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Correct he is not or rather is not restricted to any one religion or place,he pervades the entire cosmos..Religions are based on a holy mans or prophets teachings,someone who has made contact with god and shows others how he did it-the path to god is called a religion and all paths lead to the One God..
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  Shadesbreathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You know this idea falls apart with the use of the adjectives. God as a word to describe love, the impulse for giving, for charity, for mercy and forgiveness... that word "God" works for pretty much all of humanity, most people, even athiests can live with that word if it's just used to describe the universal idea of kindness and "right" that all normal functioning humans recognize. It's when one set of stories or beliefs starts adding adjectives like "the" and "one" and "truth" that the universally recognized thing begins to fall apart and the fighting starts... the stories of one faith threaten the stories of another... when really, all the stories lead to the same ideas, the same core human truths and spiritual maybes.
  
  I think the most amazing thing about Tolstoy's Anna Karenina is how clearly he lines out the nature of what good is by the end of that story and manages not to ruin anyone's faith.
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  Writer Riderposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well, actually, this is pretty much what I was saying above.
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  Writer Riderposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Therefore, all the devisiveness because of different religious beliefs is pointless. And surely not the path to God. Plus, what does that say about atheists who do good deeds and are very loving? I have a hard time believing they won't find their way to God.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  An athesit is also a human and comes from the light or god and will naturally with time find their way back home to God. Meditation is the key of all religions an athesit can meditate without belonging to any religion All the Prophets reperesent the light and one must aim for the light with or without a master or prophets help.
  Some are born aware of god or a higher intelligence ,some develope it with time may be with an accident or a spiritual experience,some will find the light or god only at the moment of death.
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  Jewelsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Beautifully said. Lovely quote. Totally believe that. A good belief to have if you're into beliefs.
  
  One of the smartest statements I've read on a Religious forum to date.
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  Writer Riderposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks for the kind comment Jewels. And for understanding what I was saying.
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  daeemominposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Belief in God without belief in religion is of no use.
  If God exists, He should not leave us without any guidance as to what is the purpose of our life. He should not leave us in darkness. Here religion comes.
  Now the question is that there are so many religions in this world. Which one is true?
  Some would that all religions are true.
  In order to judge this statement we should see the teachings to those religions. Obviously those teachings are not same. One religion advocates monotheism. In another we find the belief of trinity. In some religions we find polytheism. We will find other difference as well. So they are not same. The statement that all religions all true is false.
  When we say that one religion is true and other religions are not, it does not mean necessarily that they are not from God. Most of them are from God (Though some of them may have been developed by tradition). What we mean is that these religions were pure at one time. But people made changes and distortions in it according to their desires.
  Now we have to see which religion is true.
  In order to judge this we should see which religions claim to be from God. Man-made religions are obviously wrong.
  We should also read the teachings of these religions from their original source and decide which one is more correct according to our reason.
  We can try to discover that which revealed religious scripture is in its original form.
  On these two criteria I found that Islam is the true religion. It appeals to my mind and heart. It challenges every other religion and ideology.
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Shadesbreathposted 15 years ago
I knew a "born again Christian" who told me that it didnt' matter how good or pure a person was in their deeds. He said (to sum up fast) that even a perfectly saintly person who was born in the rain forest somewhere so deep he never met a white man with a bible who could "save" him was doomed. It didn't matter that the rainforest guy was kind, loving and giving to his community... because nobody from the better societies showed up to save him, his good deeds and loving heart were still screwed and doomed to hell because he didn't actually accept Jesus Christ as his savior.
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  Zarm Nefilinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I usually can and do corner people who believe this crap with what I call the "1491" argument.
  
  Eventually they are backed against a wall and are forced to admit that the millions upon millions of Indians living across the Western Hemisphere continents of North, South, and Middle America were all involuntarily damned before the year 1492. It is a real good argument to expose the extremely coercive and ruthless beliefs that some people truly believe.
  
  Whether it is Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus or a Protestant equivalent I can corner people who believe this garbage quite easily. It's usually a waste of time if I don't sense the person to be a reflective type of individual who might actually stop and think of what he/she was quite logically forced to admit to. The best types are the ones who think they are "logical" because it is like someone who is carrying around a noose who walks up to you and says "Here you go" and hands you the noose and says "Hang me with my own noose".
  
  They start off coyly stating "Only God can judge whether those millions of people attained salvation", and then inevitably end up admitting "They must be damned". Heck I did that right here in the forums with someone. Rolled him up like a cheap cigar. It's so easy to do too because Protestant theology is weak. Catholic theology makes it more difficult but in the end they can be cornered too. The way I see it theology is basically metaphorical sophistry employed by practitioners of priestcraft in order to establish, maintain, and repair a societal power structure known as a religion. If the theology is poorly developed then it takes little time and effort to bring the zealot to the point of severe cognitive dissonance. If it is well developed then it takes a while longer, but the same result can be achieved. In order to accomplish deconversion the person has to have a moment where they realize how ruthless what they believe is and come to an understanding that the premises on which their circular logic is founded may not necessarily be as absolutely true as they claim them to be...
  
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Writer Riderposted 15 years ago
That is I believe Islam is a good religion that believes in God, I just have a problem with the whole concept you just mentioned (not the entirety of Islam). That's all.
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  daeemominposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Who says that God is violent?
  He doesn’t want people to spread mischief on earth.
  If anybody wants to kill you and your family, what will you do? Won't you defend against that person? Will you call it violence?
  Islam is a practical religion. It is not rhetoric.
  Here Quran says:
  To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged; - and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid. (They are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right,- (for no cause) except that they say, “Our Lord is Allah”. Did not Allah check one set of people by means of another, there would surely have been pulled down monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which the name of Allah is commemorated in abundant measure. Allah will certainly aid those who aid His (cause);- for verily Allah is full of strength, exalted in might,(able to force His will).
  (Chapter: 22, verse: 39,40)
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knslmsposted 15 years ago
Most every post is just a clever trap your making for believers. (I use the term clever very loosely because it either going to be one of two replies. "why you got use insults" or "your pushing your beliefs"

What is the point? To feel intelligent, to fit in, to gang up on believer's middle school style ????
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aka-djposted 15 years ago
MK writes
"Why do Christians always resort to insults and attacks when they come across some one who does not share their beliefs?"
Does that statement include (some) who don't resort to insults and attacks?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  Of course not. Perhaps "always," is unfair. How about "often," instead?
  
  The question still stands though. What do you think?
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  aka-djposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I can't speak for "others". But as for myself, that is not my way. I admit I throw in a (little) sarcasm sometimes, but that has always been part of my sense of humor.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You talk like you are not insulting.
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knslmsposted 15 years ago
That's just me, I am a very passionate person. People often do things just to get a rise out of someone, I would feel bad if I didn't give them what they wanted!
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ask and ye shall receive huh?
  
  And no, it is not just you
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Junksterposted 15 years ago
People sure take religion seriously round here don't they? The post count in this forum is ridiculous!

I might as well dispense my two pence on the matter: I take Religion as a belief system, subjective to whoever you care to ask in the world. I for one used to be Catholic but saw little that made me believe in the teachings of that faith with plenty of pretty awful things happening to family members contrasting their "good" lives.

I will say that many people find solace in religion and I say more power to them, things like the Bible, whilst probably not factual, are pretty good at providing rules and guidelines for living a good life.

I don't feel much different now being sans-faith than I did when I was catholic going to church on sundays. You can't argue with that as much as I can't argue with people who are deeply religious.

Everyone has their own mind and it's silly trying to put people down because of their choices of faith....that's how wars start
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  knslmsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I don't believe in ghosts, therefore you want find me on a ghost forum!
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Junksterposted 15 years ago
Did you literally read the first line of my post and say that?

I made a comment then put forward my opinion on the matter being discussed. Sorry if that was against the rules.
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  knslmsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That wasn't directed at you.
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Junksterposted 15 years ago
Oh, sorry.

Sounded like a pop at my lack of belief for a second there.
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knslmsposted 15 years ago
No I was just adding to your comment that it is silly to put someone down because of their beliefs. There are many people that come to these forums with the sole purpose of putting down Christians. I will admit that the opposite happens as-well
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So, what are you here for?
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knslmsposted 15 years ago
Money, Drugs, and Women lol.

Like I said, I don't believe in ghosts, therefor I'm not on a forum about ghosts. I do believe in god therefor I'm here.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ah I see.
  
  So if your family had believed in ghosts, and people came knocking on your door to tell you you should believe in ghosts, and left flyers asking for money under your car windshield wipers so they could spread the message that ghosts were real, and there were television programs that were specifically broadcast to tell you you needed to believe in ghosts, and there were buildings all over the place that honored the chief ghost and wars had been fought over which was the best ghost to believe in, and the recent presidential elections had not featured some one thanking ghosts for the opportunity to serve his country, and you discovered that people were lying to children about science because it contradicted their beliefs about ghosts, would you still not go to one of the thousands of ghost forums to voice your opinion?
  
  Even if you didn't believe in them?
  
  Any way, this is not a "god" forum, it is a "religion" forum.
  
  Money drugs and women. That is why I am here too
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  Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Mark, does your wife read these forums?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Not a chance.......
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
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knslmsposted 15 years ago
It is however a god thread.

This country was founded and created on Christianity. The only reason that freedom of religion was because of the Catholics rule of the old country.

So where are all of these flyers and knocks on the doors? I must be in a good part of the country because that doesn't happen to me. If it did than so what? Throw it away, sales papers and vacuum salesman do the same thing. Do they not?
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  knslmsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Which country?
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  knslmsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Whoops, We aren't all in my country are we....
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  LOL
  
  Nope.
  
  Although - the "old country" was not ruled by the Catholics........
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Mishaposted 15 years ago
What? There is more than one?
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Junksterposted 15 years ago
Nope, I'm in England and we don't tend to get many people come a knocking to preach on your doorstep. They did one time after a heavy night of drinking and my flatmate answered the door in just his underwear with a bacon sandwich in hand.

I think he scared the little old women asking if he'd heard about jesus and what he'd done for him so they gave a flyer which before they could leave the front yard he'd thrown at the back of their heads from our open window.

I shared his sentiment of not being told what to believe in, not so much his questionable belief that all jesus had done for him was give him bacon and thusly high cholesterol.

On a serious note Mark has a valid point with the whole ghosts thing, I think the one thing that bugs me (and it's likely been brought up many times before) is the whole dinosaur thing. That sort of throws a spanner in the works for the christians/creationists out there doesn't it?
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  Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No not really Junkster.
  
  Not after you watch the 6 part Great Dinosaur Deception Exposed series below.
  
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  Junksterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks for that Mr Make Money/Mike,
  I'll have to check them out, it may require some more dedication than I'm accustomed to with 11 video to watch but I guarantee I'll try.
  
  According to some other forum members it seems like they may be quite funny, or maybe they're being sarcastic (it's so hard to tell on the internet sometimes).
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, they are funny all right.
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  Shadesbreathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No sarcasm on my part. They're seriously hilarious. Time well spent to watch a few of them at least. The first one starts a little slow, but hang with it, it pays off towards the end to have let him set up first. By the time you get into the second one, it's just fall down funny. And not just because of the massive stuff he leaves out, it's funny on so many levels.
  
  The only thing scary about this is the kid videos he talks about. Man, you tell stuff like this to little kids, they really will believe it. They have no way of realizing all the stuff he's leaving out, glossing over, misrepresenting and making up, not to mention the fact that they aren't sophistcated enough when their young to see him doing the same evasionary stuff he accuses science of doing, only worse because he has an agenda where science does not. You could really screw up a kid with stuff like that and make them subject to riddicule in school unnecessarily (not to mention bad grades). Borders on mental abuse or child neglect or something. But, beyond that, it's just good harmless fun.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  They certainly are funny. I can't decide which is funnier - the people who make these videos or the grown-ups that believe them.
  
  I have rather decided it should be classed as child abuse when they show it to kids and teach them this is all the TRUTH.
  
  I am always torn between feeling sorry for them or hating them, but when I see then forcing it down children's throats and keeping them out of school to do so, I figure they do not deserve my sympathy any more, so I just make fun of them instead:
  
  http://markpknowles.com/why-make-fun-of-creationists/
  
  Watch the first video. Shouldn't be allowed and I am starting a campaign to make it illegal to homeschool children in the US.
  
  That is how it is done apparently. Whatever you believe, if you can get the government behind you, it gets made a law and every one else has to believe it too.
  
  I will say god told me, so it's OK.......
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  Shadesbreathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, that covers a lot of the stuff in that Dinosaur fiction set of videos. The other ones are way funnier though. Your video is more tragic. It's like watching a train wreck in slow motion. The curator is right though when he says that some of those kids are going to start thinking for themselves.
  
  I think the biggest difference, and the scariest one, is that the difference between that Bible tour in the video, and a regular museum tour is that the regular museum tour just says, "Here's what we found, here's how carbon dating works, etc." They don't ever say, "Here's the fossil records, and here is how the fossil records disprove the Bible." Meanwhile, the Bible tour-guide IS saying that in reverse: "Here's the fossile record, and this his how it is conflicts with the Bible you should believe in." The angle of the teaching is skewed to create an antogonism between science and the Bible that isn't their, and one that the science community is NOT teaching in response. These idiots are creating an adversarial relationship in the mids of these kids that is only being fought from the Christian side. It amazes me how incapable so many Christians are in recognizing that glaringly obvious detail.
  
  I love the math sequence about the ages of people being 800 years for a while, and the stuff about the canine teeth of T-rex being for vegetables was pretty funny too. Almost as good as the dinsaurs on the ramp into Noah's boat in the other videos. Oh, and "we can't cover everything" is a fantastic way to respond to why the Bible tour-guide tells the kids that stratification is "circular reasoning" as if the creatures found in the layers is how they date the layers, and vice versa and yet then goes on to ignore the radiometric dating. I mean, they literally look those kids in the eyes and bold face lie to them about how science sets the time period for the sandstone fossils. They outright lie in the name of Christ. Amazing. Caught on tape though, that's something.
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  Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  I thought you would like these videos Mark, oh salami of the god of Darwinism.
  
  I was wondering why you didn't comment on them when I posted them in your Atheist Rules thread though.
  
  What was discovered in 1841 was the new word dinosaur. Even scientists have had to admit that "dinosaurs" live with us when a live coelacanth was caught in 1938. And they must have scratched their heads when the Komodo dragon was first discovered by western scientists in 1910. Scientist have said that turtles, crocodiles and alligators stem back to the "dinosaur" age. I wonder why they didn't evolve? In fact every lizard you look at looks like a "dinosaur". Well maybe not Eddie Lizzard.
  
  Child abuse? What is more like child abuse than forcing children in schools to believe something that has not been proven, like evolution. Do you not see the circular reasoning "scientists" use with the phony columns in Part 1 and Part 2? Did you watch Part 4 about carbon dating and the dinosaur red blood cells they found in Part 5?
  
  You hate creationists Mark? Until science comes up with positive proof for evolution I tend to believe what Dr. Thomas Kindell says in Part 6, that evolution is the most successful lie that the devil has ever spawned.
  
  If science wants to continue their research to prove evolution I think they should have to do it on their own buck instead of with tax payers money that is handed to them through government grants.
  
  The Great Dinosaur Deception Exposed - Part 1
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSxBkif71ks
  
  The Great Dinosaur Deception Exposed - Part 2
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGJd-OR5MLU
  
  The Great Dinosaur Deception Exposed - Part 3
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aLXdVYyCZ4
  
  The Great Dinosaur Deception Exposed - Part 4
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0wBoeP1nYk
  
  The Great Dinosaur Deception Exposed - Part 5
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRwjJk5XiwE
  
  The Great Dinosaur Deception Exposed - Part 6
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgtorP2VWRI
  
  Well you know Mark I was also thinking of starting a campaign, against public schools that teach evolution.
  
  Here's how it would go. The public schools that teach evolution would be closed, the teachers and administrators would have to find new jobs or go home to raise their own kids. The money saved from this and the sale of the school buildings, busing and everything related would be given to parents to home school their children. There would be a certain curriculum, without evolution taught for each grade with one building for the whole county for the kids to write their tests. What the parents received would be determined by each grade their children pass. The solutions would be smarter and more loving kids, one parent incomes plus what the other receives for doing the home schooling. This would also make more jobs available seeing one of the parents stays home to raise and home school the children. The income from home schooling would help pay for the family's housing and other expenses. Yeah, back to the traditional family.
  
  There are so many reasons why not to teach the belief of evolution in schools it's just unbelievable why it was even started to begin with.
  
  Mike
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Mike - I cut the rest of your rant out, and I understand why you are scared.
  
  It must be very difficult for you - walking around complaining about the evil scientists who have proven your bible is a lie, and then wanting to use all the clever things the same group of scientists have invented.
  
  Like a computer to spread your gospel.
  
  As I said to some one else on a thread recently - you are free to believe whatever you like. If you think dinosaurs were saved on Noah's ark, and also that they died in the flood and were turned into oil by a process known as "rusting" at the same time, that is entirely your choice.
  
  I am a little confused as to where the dinosaurs that survived the flood went after wards, but I am sure your guru will have a video released soon. Unless I missed that one - can't say I have watched them all.
  
  I didn't respond to it on the atheism rules thread because I didn't think you were serious. I rather thought no one was ignorant enough to actually believe this stuff. Apparently, I was wrong.
  
  Good luck with that.
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knslmsposted 15 years ago
My arrogance knows no bounds!
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Shadesbreathposted 15 years ago
Dude, that was awesome. Thank you.

I got through the first two parts but had to take off for awhile. That's some hilarious stuff. I love how he bags on the "missing evidence" of evolution, but whenever his theory starts unraveling and getting totally ridiculous, he just says, "Well, the dinosaurs could breath fire because God can make them do that stuff if he wants... give them glands that secrete flamable liquid and a mechanism to make sparks." So any time he can't find anything plausible to fill in the horrendously huge and laughable gaps in his "theory" he can just invoke the magic of God to fill in the blanks, borrowing from modern day fantasy novels. That's classic.

I almost choked I was laughing so hard. If anyone hasn't watched those, you seriously should. The stuff with the baby brontosauruses walking up the ramp into Noah's arc is priceless. There is NOTHING evolutionary science could say to discredit "Creation Theory" more than this dude in the video.

Which, you know, is ironic. It's pretty funny how that guy acts like science is "out to disprove the Bible" or something. That attitude always gets me. It's like some people just can't wrap their heads around the idea that science doesn't have a religious agenda. They're just taking data and putting it together.

Anyway, that was seriously hilarious, and I will try to get to the rest of it when I can. Well worth the time. Thanks for putting it up.

(Mark Knowles, seriously, if you haven't seen them, it's totally worth your time; I promise. At least the first two are.)
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sandra rinckposted 15 years ago
Anyone can deny the existance of God.
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Make Moneyposted 15 years ago
mohitmisra this is what the serpent said to Eve before God kicked her and Adam out of Paradise.

The serpent is a liar.
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  sounds to me like Adam and Eve had no prior knowledge of evil before they ate from the tree. The Serpent was not a liar. God said ye will surely die, the sepent said, you shall not die "the death".
  
  If the Serpent was a liar, then what would Jesus' sacrifice represent? Are you saying that the Serpent didn't know?
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  Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  There was no evil for Adam and Eve before the serpent talked them into eating from the tree. Satan the evil serpent knew that. Adam and Eve chose to believe the serpent rather than listening to God. Jesus' sacrifice was to forgive the original sin of Adam and Eve.
  
  The lie that the serpent told Eve, then Adam was that they "shall be as Gods".
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Do you mean to say Jesus was and is till date the only enlightened person to have walked this planet.The idea of Christianity is to become like Jesus. :)He is an example of what a human can become.Like I mentioned before Jesus and Christianity is only 2000 years old and there have been many masters before him on this planet as well as after him.
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  Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I don't understand the meaning of an enlightened person and I'm not looking for an explanation of it. Jesus was the only God that walked this planet. We are to emulate Jesus but we will never become a god. Christianity may only be 2,000 years old but Jesus was with God the Father at the time this universe was created. He is the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last.
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  Jewelsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus is not the Alpha and Omega. God represents the Alpha and Omega. The universe was already created before Jesus was born, from the vagina of the Virgin (Pure of Heart) Mary. That is clearly written in your bible. His ability to be reunited with God is the same as Enlightenment. He is not the only one to have attained this state. Christianity does not have a monopoly on God. Never has, never will. Geez!
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus is an enlightened one- someone who has merged with the Light- God.
  enlightened - in light- one who has been one with the light-the source -God.All of humanity will get enlightened with time like Jesus did.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You shoud read about the other masters who were here before Jesus- one example
  Patanjali the founder of father oy Yoga said seven breaths of one pointed concentration will get you enlightened .
  Radhakrishnan and Moore attribute the text to Patanjali, dating it as 2nd century BCE
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You should read this http://hubpages.com/hub/Christs-Life-St … You-decide
  
  Really you are wrong.
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Mark Knowlesposted 15 years ago
Yeah, but they are lying for Jesus, so it is OK

Says so right there in the bible.....

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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I always knew Jesus was a comic book hero!!! Ride um Jesus!
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knslmsposted 15 years ago
I tried to keep up with all of this but I blinked and thirty more comments!
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  Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah I'm wasting too much time in here myself. It's kind of fun playing with the atheists though.
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Jewelsposted 15 years ago
The lie that the serpent told Eve, then Adam was that they "shall be as Gods".

I see this as a lie in itself, and the twist is that those who believe that statement, are those who have been conned. Ignorance and fear of the serpent will keep you disempowered and continually subserviant. The serpent is the force to be mastered, and not enveloped by. Yet those who remain ignorant are those being enveloped by it.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Nice .
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VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years ago
In South Indian (Tamil) literature also, one saint "TIRUMOOLAR" has written about divinity, human health and living ethics. He is dating back to 3000 years. At that time, there was no religion in India. It is only after the entry of Europeans that religion came here and our society became Hindus, people i.e., living on the banks of river Indus.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Cool give us more.
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Make Moneyposted 15 years ago
No Sandra, mistyhorizon2003 is wrong. Very, very wrong as I explain in my post on the bottom of page 6 of this thread.

Thanks for giving me permission to believe what I do Mark, oh salami.
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  why is it wrong? do you believe that Horus was made up before Christ and the Devil went back in time to place those stories there?
  
  Or would it be a shame to know that your sweet Jesus ripped off his godlyness from the Egyptians, or the Greek?
  
  For a man who studied in a society soley based on all the previous legends it doesn't seem likely that Jesus was any God at all, but a fraud, one whos intentions, I am sure, was to get people to do good things, since he fully identified with those who wanted to bring peace and love, and yet it is always left up to ignorance and ill hearts of the followers to destroy and take things for thier own.
  
  your religion is a joke disguised in false love that doesn't do anything but tear people apart and bring hate on the world.
  
  Then again you would have me hanged if you could for being an one of the jew like people who follow the 10 commandments. right?
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  Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Just because Mike has the god given final authority to decide what is right and what is wrong! He never errs. Didn't you know? :sarcasm smiley:
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  your religion is a joke disguised in false love that doesn't do anything but tear people apart and bring hate on the world. No Sandra do not blame the religion or the prophet,its man who doesnt understand and distorts it to please his ego.Jesus and Christianity teaches love for the whole of mankind. :)Jesus would never insult another tue master it would be like insulting himself and what he stands for.
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  Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes mohitmisra Jesus and Christianity teaches love for the whole of mankind. But Jesus just railed against the Pharisees and Sanhedrin, as did his apostles. And around 700 years before Christ God allowed the 10 tribes of the Kingdom of Israel to fall to the Assyrians because the 10 tribes were worshiping the false god of Baal. You may have read or heard about the 10 lost tribes. To find out who Baal is read the bottom post of page 6 in this thread.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with you .All Prophets come and correct the situation that is false knowledge or worship of God.Jesus being a great master did the same. :)But his basic message was love.
  When someone worships something other than the light then the person is on the wrong track and guiding others falsely which becomes wrong.
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Now it sounds about right since I am from the tribe of Gad.
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Jewelsposted 15 years ago
Make Money: you wrote

"I don't understand the meaning of an enlightened person and I'm not looking for an explanation of it. Jesus was the only God that walked this planet. We are to emulate Jesus but we will never become a god. Christianity may only be 2,000 years old but Jesus was with God the Father at the time this universe was created. He is the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last."

Do you not see this as tunnel vision? If you don't understand what enlightenment is, then how can you decide whether your Christian beliefs are right or not. If you don't play on the other side of the fence, even for just a little taste, how can you made decisions on beliefs and espouse knowledge? Then knowledge in my sense of the word is more to know, to experience. As you have had many discussions involving people of different standpoints, different religious backgrounds, different spiritual teachings, and you have no intention of understanding this uncommon experience, yet often used word Enlightenment.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Perfect you dont understand an enlightened one ,then you dont understand Jesus.Your are a Jewel- Jewel
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JYOTI KOTHARIposted 15 years ago
I will love to read your hubs. Indo-American N-treaty will be a right kind of stuff for me. Please re-write the same.
Waiting for a hub!

Jyoti Kothari
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Mr.Jyothi, the other topic mentioned by me is also very important, as many outsiders are ignorant of what India is and what it stands for!
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Thinkaboutit77posted 15 years ago
The title of the forum is: "nobody can deny the existence of God"

Well, people can deny His existence but those who do are what the Bible calls "fools".

"The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God" - Psalm 14:1

So people CAN use their free will to deny the very God who gave them their free will but when they do that they are being fools as the Bible says.
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  Junksterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I personally don't think it's god who gave me free will, it's more likely to be my parents who gave birth to me and a non-oppressive governement who don't tell me what I should do (within reason, like laws) and allow me to vote.
  
  That's free will in my book
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JYOTI KOTHARIposted 15 years ago
This is very important. It is our duty to info people about India. India has the potential to save the world from its present economic crisis and financial problem.

People can learn from Indians to save.

India can bail out the world from its present crisis with its enormous economic strength.

I love your suggestions on my hubs.

Jyoti kothari
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Mr.Jyoti, please come to "Politics-Obama's victory" forum. A hot debate with Mark Knowles who repeatedly describe Indians as "ignorant".
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No, I repeatedly described you as ignorant
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  Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  And not only Mr Mark Knowles
  Won't you think it would be more beneficial to you to work on eradicating your utter ignorance before coming to the forums?
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Is your personal slang an excuse for your ignorance?
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  Junksterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Mr Venugopal, Please don't try and recruit people to join some sort of gang to team up against another forum user, it's not very nice. Take a chill pill and stop getting so incensed by someone's wording of what he/she may/maynot have said to you. Otherwise you'll definitely be accurately summised by the word: Ignorant.
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Why are you so scared? Some people know how to be ignorant more than others. If any one changes track from a debate and engages in personal slanging, it means he has emptied his brain.
  I invited Kothari to that forum just not to let any Indian to be ignorant of what we are described. Nothing wrong.
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  weblogposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Relax Venu, many people here don't know about India and our history. What they do is to simply refer wikipedia and/or some books to get some rough knowledge. It's a waste of time and energy to be arguing with such people. Then, it's upto you
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ms.web, advise taken. When one's pride and self-respect are challenged by a less intelligent people, they should be taken up. But it is certainly a waste. It is like throwing pearls before swines.
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  Junksterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Since you seem to take delight in twisting people's words your wording there seems to imply that "mr Mark's people" are less intelligent. Now that's a fairly insulting phrase right there and sincerely hope that it was a simple case of your meaning being lost in translation.
  
  Also that line about pearls and swines is pretty humourous, don't know what a pig would want with fancy pearls and such, possibly to snaffle them right up with the rest of it's dinner?
  
  Be careful with your words mr VENUGOPAL, from the evidence here it seems that Mr Mark is ten times more culturally exposed and accepting than yourself.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  VS - I called you ignorant, not the entire Indian nation.
  
  I am reasonably familiar with Indian culture, and have spent time in both India and Sri Lanka. I also lived for some years in Walsall, which as you may know is a town near Birmingham, with many, many Indian immigrants.
  
  One of my friends where I live now ( an Indian native) is instructing me in the art of Indian cooking (this being one of my favorite types of cooking.) And as a young man, I was pleased to discover that my earlobes and the shape of my nose are particularly appealing to Indian females, further expanding my knowledge of Indian culture. This is not the case in English culture, which seems to favor expensive cars and large incomes.
  
  Either way, I recognize an ignorant, right wing, war monger when I see one. Which is what I see in your every word, regardless of your ethnicity.
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  weblogposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Mark, I'm just curious to know your opinion about South Indian Food, especially with rice
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Mr.Mark, you try to appease easy targets with your earlobes and nose shape. No one is ignorant in India, as you think. They will understand your pretentions and go on. Alright... Do you deny the existence of God? Or do you accept? In this field, I am nearer to you.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  There are ignorant people the world over, including in India. I myself am ignorant of many things.
  
  But you put words in my mouth. I did not call Indians ignorant - I called you ignorant.
  
  Of course I deny the existence of a god. Any fool can see there is no such thing....
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Mark, when there is nothing like that, what can a fool see? Is it to see it and then refuse it?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  All right. Describe god to me and I will tell you if I see this person.
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  God is not a person or human being. It is, it may be, and it should be nature... (Please refer to my previous comment)
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well, for once we agree. I venerate and revere nature. But many, including some Indians subscribe to the idea of an actual person who is god.
  
  I do not subscribe to this idea. I do not even feel the need to give the name "god" to what I think you are referring to.
  
  It just is. And it is to be accepted, cherished and nurtured. If only for selfish reasons - that it is still there for my children and theirs.
  
  I cannot imagine a world without Tigers and Polar bears and all the animals and habitats we humans threaten.
  
  Truly - this will be hell on earth, if what I see happening continues unabated.
  
  As for all the religious zealots who make arguments and fights about who's god is the true god?
  
  They are just as bad as the political zealots
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  God is a fine light,prevading everything in this cosmos.You are made of this fine light as well and it is supremely intelligent.
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  dingdongposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Nearer to what? Atheism?
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No. Not atheism. some other thing... a religion with wisdom and without ignorance. Not religious fanaticism, which creates hatred, enemity, etc.. I dont want a religion which hates another religion. My religion (belief) is let all religions flourish !
  In South India, people did not worship the present day gods in ancient times. They worshipped nature.. Sun, wind, fire, rain, water. If we all worship these things which are common to all, how can hatred and enemity enter our minds / hearts ?
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  dingdongposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Nature does it's duty, doesn't matter whether you worship it or not
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  And so does god.
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I worship it .... only to satisfy my near and dear... If god comes before me, I will salute him, show him the way and proceed in my way.
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  daeemominposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Nature is a creature, just like you and me. Nature is made for us:
  Quran says:
  “It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Moreover His design comprehended the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge.” (Chapter: 2, verse: 29)
  We should worship the creator not the creature like us.
  “O ye people! Adore your Guardian-Lord, who created you and those who came before you, that ye may have the chance to learn righteousness; Who has made the earth your couch, and the heavens your canopy; and sent down rain from the heavens; and brought forth therewith Fruits for your sustenance; then set not up rivals unto Allah when ye know (the truth).” (Chapter: 2, Verse: 21, 22)
  People worship nature because of their ignorance.
  Religion doesn’t create hatred. Religious leaders who have become mediators between man and God create hatred. They don’t want their followers to study any other religion without bias. They want them to adhere to their religion blindly.
  Only belief in one God can end hatred, belief that all human being are creatures of God.
  Prophet Muhammad in his last sermon said:
  “All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action “
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Nature is intelligent and alive.Man can communicate with nature.
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  daeemominposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Nature is being controlled by a Suprenatural Power. Nature is among the signs of God.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes its is being controlled by God and is not dead but very much alive like the entire cosmos.
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VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years ago
Mr.Mark, No need to go in search of god... it will end in our end. Some will say he went to god; and some will say he died. But no one should be hurt sentimentally and no one should die of hunger in this world. If we ensure these, it is equal to worshipping god. No one going to show you the god. You have to find yourself.
A fort-temple in South India build 500 years ago by Hindu kings remained without a deity. 28 years before, Hindus restored the deity (a cylinder-shaped stone) and began worship. It ensured the livelihood of at least a thousand poor people. How can we deny god, even if it is not there? It will be like hurting the sentiments of a thousand people or more.
A normal man wants a peaceful living. For that, worshipping god, helping poor, educating the illiterates, feeding the hungry offering help when needed may be done.
Denial of god will be taken as denial of livelihood of many. So, for god's sake, dont be an atheist.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  As long as there are people who say they know what god wants and give me instructions as to how god says I should be - I will deny the existence of this god.
  
  I do not need to worship a god to help the poor, or educate the illiterates, feed the hungry, or do any other "good' thing.
  
  A normal man......
  
  Where is this creature?
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  1. You (I think!)
  2. Me (I am sure)
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  dingdongposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Our parents, grand parents, ancestors brought up us that way, and hence it's being followed. Otherwise, do we really need the concept of God? Do you think people who are sincere to God even commit crimes? Do we actually need a super natural power to guide us? We are capable of helping others, ruling our own mind may seem hard, but it's not something impossible.
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  Writer Riderposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I have to admit that my faith is religion has been shaken these past years with all the fanaticism. I'm almost about to bail especially considering the fact that good deeds don't play a role in religion anymore. It's all about john versus mark versus paul versus 1:2:456:789. Don't mean to be sarcastic, this is just what I feel.
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VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years ago
God believers... you have to bestow your thoughts in a more rational way.
Think of these: One man standing behind god inside temple / church. Another man goes in and pray god with the help of the first man (priest). The third one sitting outside and begging.... If it was god who created us, why so much disparity in his creations? Why does the beggar beg from the devotee? Why does he not pray god directly? The answer will summarily be "It is his karma." "God gives through another man", etc.
The god believers should not go on saying these. Several high profile politicians, from President of India to an ordinary man fell at the feet of one man describing him as God. Where did the God go when that man (Sankaracharya of Kanchipuram) was bitterly asked by a policeman not to sit on the court-verandah ?... when he was linked to a murder case?
It is the deed of a person in this birth itself that makes a man. God has no part to play here.
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  Writer Riderposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Perfectly stated and very well reasoned!
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THEMOUNTIANGIRLposted 15 years ago
How could anyone not believe in the existance of God...Just look around you. He is in everything. Yes, bad things happen to good people, people of God. I had a son die at nine months old, and i asked how could God do this to a baby. I got my answer years later. I became a counselor at Sav A Life and helped several girls/women make an important decission to not have an abortion. I also help those who have lost children to a number of reasons. I belive that everything happens for a reason the bad and the good. And if you belive in God then you know that you will see your loved ones again. I just could not have survived losing my son if I didn't belive in Him. Even if you believe in evolution or the Big Bang therory, how could it have happened with out God? I personally believe in God made all. But we christians have to put up with the few that doesn't believe, I always heard that majority rules. and maybe it does in some things but it doesn't were religion is concerned....when God is taken out of the picture, that is the beginning of the end. Don't give up.... God has a plan.
Our hardships is what should make us stronger. God gave us FREE WILL. We can not expect Him to do all for us. This is a trial for true christians. When we give up FAITH that is when the other side wins.
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  Writer Riderposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'm sorry that your son died. It's not so much my personal life which is fine (something like say, thyroid cancer, is something I would ignore as being frivilous). Personally, I do believe in evolution and the big bang theory and it would most likely be created by God. He's just not a religion and I don't believe a person has to be a part of an organized religion to believe in God. I guess every side has to put up with different opinions but it's when the finger pointing starts that I get scared away. That and extremeism such as condemning a person like Obama in the most disingenious ways by saying he's a radical islamic extremeist (though I exempt people over 60 years old from criticism because they're not young).
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  Zarm Nefilinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I think it's pretty safe to say that when people started openly declaring Muslims to be our enemies in this election cycle after vehemently 'denouncing' Senator Barack Obama for being a Muslim who palls around with terrorists (suggesting that he is a terrorist or could be one), it became pretty clear to me what those on the Religious Right truly believe; that is that the enemy we fight in this Global War on Terror is not extremist Islam, but Islam itself. This is something they have subconsciously believed all along and only during the election cycle did this stuff really come out.
  
  And yet when you seriously question someone who believes that Sen. Obama is shameful for attending Rev. Wright's Church for 20 years and also believes that Sen. Obama is somehow a Muslim too then the cognitive dissonance for that individual could only get worse I imagine...
  
  The sad thing is there were and still are many many people who call themselves Christians who believe exactly these two things. It all amounts to believing that Sen. Obama is a Muslim who somehow attended a Christian Church (Wright's) for twenty years, somehow believes what Wright preached blindly and is yet still somehow a Muslim and then on top of that is somehow harboring terrorists like Bill Ayers and just somehow might be a secret terrorist himself. It's just pathetic and it shows how easy it is for one issue voters on the Religious Right to sell their soul to the first movement that comes along that caters to their ideological bent (the neo-conservatives have a love relationship with the Religious Right). The Anti-Islamicism and xenophobia wasn't a problem even immediately after Sept 11th. That hatred was nursed, on conservative talk radio, in Churches, and in the bigoted rantings of idiot preachers on the likes of the Trinity Broadcasting Network to the point where people genuinely began to believe that Osama Bin Laden was a true Muslim and represented the true vision of Islam.
  
  That is about as stupid as saying people who go bomb abortion clinics in the name of Jesus represent what all Christians truly believe. Yet people see no contradiction in this, if they are on the Religious Right. They would say such a thing is incomparable, and that of course no one would believe that an abortion bomber represents the mainstream belief of Christians, yet if they were anti-Islamic and xenophobic they would have to maintain that Bin Laden represents the true goals of Islam nonetheless. They cannot and will not see the extreme conscientious stupidity that is involved in these bizarre feats of double standardry and cognitive dissonance.
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  Writer Riderposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I agree, Palin was trying to turn people against Obama so McCain could win the election and people bought into it (unfortunately). I don't think she's racist because she married an Escamo, but it's unfortunate that she went there. I'm a Catholic and proud that they didn't nurse racism at the pulpit. Not proud they the preached against prop 8, but proud they didn't racially bait. I'm also unrepentant of my Obama vote though I was made to feel like an outcast by some because I was open about my political views (I'm unrepentantly honest as well).
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VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years ago
Ms.Mountaingirl, you go on saying "god gave that... god gave this." "god is everywhere". But you are not showing it to anybody. Please show god to others, at least to have faith in you, if not god. I dont deny god; nor it is my work. My request to others is: if god is common to all, then why do you argue so much? Are you his advocate? How are you profited by him? It is upto everyone to worship or deny god. You need not bother. Continuous worship and devoting a major part of our time is wasteful. In that time, you may do some useful, constructive work.
M.girl may go to worship. No need to argue without showing god to others.
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  daeemominposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  you ask her to show you God..then show me the air, electricity and gravitational force!!
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  TRANCE
  
  Most around me live in a trance,
  Having no idea of your cosmic dance.
  
  When does everyone get to know you?
  Why reveal yourself only to a few?
  
  It causes me so much pain,
  When I talk of you all in vain.
  
  In the middle of the ocean, in nowhere,
  You showed me your presence everywhere.
  
  Absolute delight and utter confusion,
  From the moment of our fusion.
  
  Countless in front are your entity,
  All having an individual identity.
  
  You are made of such fine light, love tissue,
  No beginning, no end, an ageless issue.
  
  At times I feel like a master,
  Then on the other hand an utter disaster.
  
  God is playing this big game and doesnt reveal himself to everyone,he chooses who and when.
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I dont deny god or is it my work. Worship should come from ones' heart; it should not be thrust on others. Air, light, sound etc. are around everyone! I have already said earlier that nature can be called god; others' satisfaction can be called.
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  daeemominposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  what about gravitational force? why do you believe in it?
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No one can be forced to believe in God.
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Air can be obtained from fans; electricity can be obtained from power stations, even from small batteries; gravitational force comes from the centre of the earth. From where does god come or how can we get him? Dont mingle them. Answer correctly.
  I am not indebted to you to show air, electricity, and g.force. Likewise, you are not indebted to me to show god. If one wants to see god, let him search for god. If one continuously search for god, one day, he may see god. Or at least the problem of argument can be averted!
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  dingdongposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Question is that whether we should spend time in search of God or not
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Spend any amount of time in search of god, if it is useful to you and to others. Particularly, women should be pious and godfearing. Then only our next generation will be good. Atheism is not for women.
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  dingdongposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No, Thanks
  
  By the way...I didn't know that male chauvinism is even ruling Atheism
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  Atheism is not for women
  
  Are they not capable of making their own minds up?
  
  Although, I notice you now have a god that is to be feared
  
  Did I say ignorant?.................
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  dingdongposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Not sure what made Venu come to THAT conclusion
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Mr.Mark, Women are mentally stronger than men. They make a good home. They produce children and ensure survival of humanity. God fearing women can make a peaceful home. If they become atheists, then all the terrorism will be at home, before our eyes. Mr.Mark, please dont encourage atheism in women. You will also be affected.
  
  Ms.dingdong, what conclusion did I come? About atheism and women? Ask your elders, your mother, your grandmother... whether atheism is for women. The basics of Indian society and culture is based on certain principles. Ms.ding, dont think differently.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I remember the basics of Indian culture regarding women.
  
  We had quite a few women burned to death by their families for leaving forced marriages with older men in Birmingham.
  
  You might want to be careful adopting some aspects of Western culture. It does not leave room for these sort of practices.
  
  Personally, I prefer a woman with a brain she is able to use, rather than an unpaid servant. Although............................ I do see the benefits
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  dingdongposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  If you think threatening a kid by the name of God/Satan is home-making, you are wrong. Should we not think differently? Why not? We are not sheep, we are humans; we always have to think in different ways; we must re-consider instead of following blindly whatever we have been taught for long time
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  Junksterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That has to be the biggest example of sugaring the pill I've ever heard! So from that questionable logiv I'm to believe that women are smarter than men (I agree there on some level) but they are not allowed to have their own belief/thoughts/voice for fear of "terrorism in the home"?!
  
  I suppose you still believe they shouldn't have the vote and should be seen and not heard?
  
  Like others have said I'd be careful trying get all holier than thou and then saying something as preposterous as that.
  
  Calling people who are atheists ignorant in my book is backward, by making a decision for themselves and not blindly following a faith through compliance is ignorant in my book, I don't argue with people following a family tradition of being a member of one faith, I have no greivances with any faith whatsoever but making your own choice whether that leaves you as an atheist, hindu, jew, catholic, sikh or whatever then if anything you're very much informed, not ignorant.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Offcourse otherwise tyou are never going to live properly.Its only after realisation of God your your self that one lives correctly.
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  dingdongposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I don't see/feel a God, but I'm aware that I'm living properly
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It gets better ,much much better
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  dingdongposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What and How?
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  Writer Riderposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Though, frankly, I'm considering atheism because, well, why should a man have monopoly over a theism? It presents a new challenge for me...I like it.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You look at life and everyone very differently from before.You actually know the One in all.
  Then you allow the cosmos to guide you.I realise this small brain of mine is unable to understand the vastness and perfection of god.I was given the signs to become a poet and I followed it.A lot of people mocked me when I was writing ,asked me who the hell do I think I am -Shakespeare?
  I had faith in the sense the universe cannot harm me and I cannot think 5-25 years ahead like the universe does.I get glimpses of the future but faith and doubt go hand in glove.I told friends I will get ranked 1 years back when I was writing but no one understood.
  You just merge with the universe -the perfection and then work for your souls satisfation or God.
  Its when you really understand who and why am I here?
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VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years ago
Dear friend daeemomin, it needs a lot of patience to read your long comments. I think the HP authority is your friend. My comments, even if is shorter, about 1/4th of yours are not accepted. May be he thinks I am ignorant (!) Wiser people will show regard to all opinions.
You pray Allah and I pray my god. As more generations pass by, some other religion may spring up and say their god is supreme. That does not mean the old religion is less important.
As a friend, my advise to you is to read some other religions' literature also. Then only you can see unanimity in religions. I have gone to mosques with muslim friends and prayed with them; I have gone to churches with my christian friends and worshipped. I find no difference. In all those places, I get peace of mind.
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  weblogposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with this point, however I can't bear the noise+air pollution in hindu temples during some special occasions(no peace)!
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Noise, air pollution, no peace... during special occasions only. But these occurs in other places of worship also during special occasions. Why do you go to a Hindu temple during religious celebrations. Finding peace amidst sound and noise...?
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  weblogposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I don't know about other religions' shrines. I just told you what I knew, because I was grown up as Hindu, and that's what my certificate says even though I don't like any religious label
  
  I go to temples, just because I love the architectures and of course I like the peace as you mentioned. I avoid visiting on occasions
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  daeemominposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Not in mosque. Never
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  daeemominposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You don’t have enough patience to read my comments. I would how you would have read any religious scripture or literature on any religion. That is why you only know the customs and traditions you see around you.
  Allah is not my God. He is your God as well, the only God. All don’t say that nature worship is wrong because it is old religion. In fact Islam is the oldest religion in the world which was first brought by Adam the messenger of God and the first person to set foot on this earth.
  I have read other religions but the same is not the same with you. You seem to have read no religion. In fact I doubt whether you studied your religion or not. So my advise to you is to read all religion not only Islam. You won’t see unanimity. You will see some similarities between Judaism, Christianity and Islam because they come from a single source.
  You said that you visited both mosques and churches and you didn’t find any difference. I would like to suggest you to visit once to both places.
  In church you will find a statue of Prophet Jesus (Peace be upon him) and in mosque you will never find any statue of Prophet Muhammad, neither will you find that anywhere in the world.
  In church you will find a mediator between God and man. In mosque you won’t find any mediator.
  In church you find bible in which you will find full of contradictions (only if you study the bible sincerely. But you won’t. Because you don’t have enough patience to read my comments)
  In mosque you will find the Quran in which you won’t find any contradiction. (If you get enough time and courage to study it)
  One more thing… you only gave me your advice. You didn’t give the answer to my question. Whether creator should be worshipped or the creature?
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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  daeemominposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Then why we (creatures) should worship nature? - Allah is also there in nature as in Islam you/we are to treat the animals with respect, nature is also to be treated with respect.
  
  This is not just the religion (belief) in Islam but elsewhere with or without religion. We shouldn't worship things that have no life nature is in Allah because in nature Allah works, just as in our human spirit Allah works. A statue of a goat can't talk, it can't move, it can't make miracles.
  Likewise talking to nature cannot make miracles but it can raise your spirit and through nature is to Allah, so speak to nature as you speak to Allah as it is with respect to Creation and a love that runs deap.
  Just as a dog loves his owner, a dog barks but we don't understand it what it is saying. The wind blows but we don't understand what it is saying but we know that when a dog barks, it is saying something and when the wind blows it is saying something.
  So in that Spirit Allah is there, you don't have to understand it exactly because we speak a different language but we know the message. The dog needs to pee or there is a storm coming.
  
  The humans spirit says, I must take the dog out and I must tell the people there is a storm coming. It is not a miracle to understand it, it is a miracle because it happened.
  
  Muhammud (PBUH) and Jesus (PBUH) said that a tree is more obedient than a human. When the wind blows the tree moves, it doesn't argue with it's creator. When it's leaves fall it doesn't cry because it already knows that in the spring it will have new leaves.
  
  So when you hear the wind blow and it feels a little warm, take notice and thank Allah for his message, when a dog barks, thank Allah for the message, when a human cries thank Allah for the message because if we weren't given a heart to understand why a human cries, or the wind blows or a dog barks, then we haven't got a thing.
  
  You should never argue over the Creator, Allah just is and peace is here if we stop talking and just start to listen.
  
  but down give a dog some pearls while a little boy is starving, and don't slaughter a calf who can grow and give milk. Don't hate what another man loves but love the other man for loving. and don't burn down a forest so that no more trees will grow and don't build big boats from the Earth for which only a few can come aboard.
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VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years ago
Good argument, daeemomin ! I really feel asleep when seeing your long, long comments. Only because it is long. Is getting sleep a disorder? Please consult a doctor.
Arabia to Australia means not universality. Such a very long thing. I would have said more; but land ends in Australia. Arrogance.... what is it? Is it saying that Islam is the only.... Allah is the only..... ? Then where should other older religions and gods go? Shall I send them to your country?
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bill yonposted 15 years ago
i am the tree's the wind the earth i am the ocean the fish the animals i am the birds i am man i am the sun the moon the stars I am the universe.we live in the body of GOD.GOD is everything from the stars to the planets to man to animals all the way down to atoms.GOD IS EVERYTHING.no matter how hard we try we will never really understand,until we leave this earth.
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Mr.bill, man created god, only to get peace of mind and do some meditation in times of mental confusions. Man tries to safeguard his own creation naturally. When did god said "I am the wind, earth, ocean, fish, animals, birds, sun, moon, earth...." ? We should not link our imaginations in attempting to justify god.. Because some like you go on expanding imaginations, the whole concept of god is denied by a group which you call atheists. Imaginary descriptions help only to create hatred. Let it be just called GOD. That is all.
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  dingdongposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  There you are
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  God created man and not the other way around.
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  If that is so, why does man let god wander in oceans, air, sun, moon, wind, etc. Why doesn't he keep god in his heart and mind.? After creating god, he has attributed some good qualities to god. Then he is distracting himself. Will god not punish him for his sins?
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  God is the oceans,air,sun ,moon and wind.God is also in the heart of man.
  
  The light that shines beyond the stars,
  Is the same in my heart.
  
  God guides us all the time,
  In not paying attention there will be a fine.
  
  Man learns a lot through pain.Its the way God teaches the soul-with love and with pain.
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You keep on saying this for every query ! That god which is everywhere including our hearts, and beyond stars, is not coming before our eyes ! Why ? What is his hesitation to come before his own creations ? Is it indifference ?
  If god fines me, I will pay it from what he has given to me !
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  When does god come?
  When the madness stops, when death becomes.
  
  How do I see god?
  With your eyes closed and with your eyes open.
  
  What have I to do with god?
  You are his creation, you are a part of him.
  
  When do I see, meet god?
  Whenever you really decide to,
  When you want nothing.
  
  Sufi saying- I was looking for myself and I found God,I was looking for God and I found myself.
  I have seen God or found him or myself.
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  More confusing.. !
  Should I close or open my eyes ? One thing only is possible.
  I want to see god.. How can I see him when I want nothing.
  When the Sufi looked for God, he found himself. When he looked himself (how?), he saw god. Is it fair to show something else and deny what we are seeking ?
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  God exists inside and outside of you.Become desireless.God says if you want that have it and not me.When you want nothing only then can you have me.In order to conquer yourself you must allow the universe or god to conquer you.You are God.
  Would suggest with your eyes closed first,then automatically you will see god ,the light in all.
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  daeemominposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  [quote=VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA
  man created god
  
  "God" created man. Man created "gods"
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  dingdongposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well, why does your God allow man to create such copies? Why diversities? Why war, pain and sorrows because of religions?
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  daeemominposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  .
  
  God has given us freedom of choice to see whether we obey Him or not. Those who obey will be rewarded with paradise. And those who disobey Him will be punished.
  War, pain and sorrows are result of man’s deed. Some times religious bias persuades him to do all these things and sometimes he does these things because of other reasons.
  Hatred comes when people don’t want to see what other religions say. They follow their religion because they are by birth Hindu or Muslim or Christian.
  Islam doesn’t demand us to believe. It invites us to believe. It urges on pondering over the realities.
  Quran says:
  To Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth; and Allah hath power over all things. Behold! in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the alternation of night and day,- there are indeed Signs for men of understanding,- Men who celebrate the praises of Allah, standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides, and contemplate the (wonders of) creation in the heavens and the earth, (With the thought): "Our Lord! not for naught Hast Thou created (all) this! Glory to Thee! Give us salvation from the penalty of the Fire. "Our Lord! any whom Thou dost admit to the Fire, Truly Thou coverest with shame, and never will wrong-doers Find any helpers! "Our Lord! we have heard the call of one calling (Us) to Faith, 'Believe ye in the Lord,' and we have believed. Our Lord! Forgive us our sins, blot out from us our iniquities, and take to Thyself our souls in the company of the righteous. "Our Lord! Grant us what Thou didst promise unto us through Thine apostles, and save us from shame on the Day of Judgment: For Thou never breakest Thy promise." (Chapter:3, verse:189,194)
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  God has given us freedom of choice to see whether we obey Him or not-true.
  
  The free will the choice we have is to align with God.Then I also believe he does what he wants with me ,I really have no choice.
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  daeemominposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No. it is not correct.
  He can do with you what He wants. But He has given you a freedom to do what you want.
  Quran says:
  “He Who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in deed” (Chapter: 67, verse: 2)
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What I want he wants,what he wants I want.
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  daeemominposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What do you want to say? Do you want to say that man has no freedom of choice?
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No all has been destined since the beginning of time.Its what is called giving oneself up to God.Stop fooling yourself as the doer of things which is ego,it was meant to happen through you.
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  dingdongposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So, say someone is attempting to murder you, you are praying for saving your life, he's praying for his plan's success. Who will win?
  
  You said everything was pre-destined. Then, why do you pray god for anything(or everything)?
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ms.ding, if some one plans and attempts to murder Mohitmisra, I will be the first to save him. Killers should not be allowed to win. Mohitmisra will then say that only fate is predestined and not everything. We should work hard to get things instead of relying on God. Because there are more people to ask God for "something." If all of us go and pray god to give us food tonight, how can he give it? Someone (not God) have to cook it.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Like Krishna tells Arjuna the outcome of the battle has allready been decided.God decides everything.
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Battle result already decided. Lord Krishna should not have asked Arjuna to kill Duryodhana or Bhishma. Two lives lost unnecessarily !
  He would have told this, convincing himself that Pandavas' side had the legitimacy. You may cite "Truth alone triumphs / Sathyameva jayathe" theory here.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  http://wsu.edu/~dee/ANCINDIA/GITA2.HTM
  
  He does say righteousness.
  Arjuna How, O destroyer of Madhu, shall I in battle encounter with arrows Bhishma and Drona—both, O destroyer of enemies, entitled to reverence? It is better to live even on alms in this world than to kill my teachers, men of great glory. But killing them, though they are avaricious of worldly goods, I should only enjoy blood-tainted enjoyments. Nor do we know which of the two is better for us—whether that we should vanquish them, or that they should vanquish us.
  
  Even those, whom having killed, we do not wish to live—even those sons of Dhritarashtra stand arrayed against us. With a heart contaminated by the taint of helplessness, with a mind confounded about my duty, 2 I ask you. Tell me what is good for me. I am your disciple; instruct me, who have thrown myself on your mercy. For I do not perceive how to dispel that grief which will dry up my spirit after I have obtained a prosperous kingdom on earth without a foe, or even the sovereignty of the gods.
  
  Sanjaya Having spoken thus to Krishna, O terror of your foes, Arjuna said to Krishna, "I shall not engage in battle," and fell silent. To him thus grieving between the two armies, O descendant of Bharata, Krishna spoke these words with a slight smile.
  
  Krishna You have grieved for those who deserve no grief, and you talk words of wisdom. Learned men grieve not for the living nor the dead. Never did I not exist, nor you, nor these rulers of men; nor will any one of us ever hereafter cease to be. As in this body, infancy and youth and old age come to the embodied self, 3 so does the acquisition of another body; a sensible man is not deceived about that. The contacts of the senses, Arjuna, which produce cold and heat, pleasure and pain, are not permanent, they are ever coming and going. Bear them, O descendant of Bharata! For, chief of men, that sensible man who is not afflicted by pain or heat, he merits immortality.
  
  There is no existence for that which is unreal; there is no non-existence for that which is real. And the correct conclusion about both is perceived by those who perceive the truth. Know that to be indestructible which pervades all this; the destruction of that inexhaustible principle none can bring about. These bodies that pertain to the embodied self which is eternal, indestructible, and indefinable, are said to be perishable; therefore do engage in battle, O descendant of Bharata! He who thinks it to be the killer and he who thinks it to be killed, both know nothing. The self kills not, and the self is not killed. It is not born, nor does it ever die, nor, having existed, does it exist no more. Unborn, everlasting, unchangeable, and primeval, the self is not killed when the body is killed.
  
  O son of Pritha, how can that man who knows the self to be indestructible, everlasting, unborn, and inexhaustible, how and whom can he kill, whom can he cause to be killed? As a man, casting off old clothes, puts on others and new ones, so the embodied self, casting off old bodies, goes to others and new ones. Weapons do not divide the self into pieces; fire does not burn it; waters do not moisten it; the wind does not dry it up. It is not divisible; it is not combustible; it is not to be moistened; it is not to be dried up. It is everlasting, all-pervading, stable, firm, and eternal. It is said to be unperceived, to be unthinkable, to be unchangeable. Therefore, knowing it to be such, you ought not to grieve.
  
  But even if you think that the self is constantly born, and constantly dies, still, Arjuna, you ought not to grieve like this. For to one that is born, death is certain; and to one that dies, birth is certain. 4 Therefore, you should not grieve about things that are unavoidable.
  
  The source of things, Arjuna, is unperceived; their middle state is perceived; and their end again is unperceived. Why lament over them? One looks upon it as a wonder; another similarly speaks of it as a wonder; another, too, hears of it as a wonder; and even after having heard of it, no one does really know it .
  
  This embodied self, Arjuna, within every one's body is always indestructible. Therefore you ought not to grieve for any being.
  
  Having regard to your own duty also, you ought not to falter, for there is nothing better for a Kshatriya 5 than a righteous battle. Happy those Kshatriyas, O son of Pritha, who can find such a battle to fight—an open door to heaven! But if you will not fight this righteous battle, then you will have abandoned your own duty and your fame, and you will incur sin. All beings, too, will tell of your everlasting infamy; and to one who has been honored, infamy is a greater evil than death. Warriors who are masters of great chariots will think that you abstained from the battle through fear, and having been highly thought of by them, you will fall down to littleness. Your enemies, too, decrying your power, will speak much about you that should not be spoken. And what, indeed, is more lamentable than that? 6 Killed, you will obtain heaven; victorious, you will enjoy the earth. Therefore arise, O son of Kunti, resolved to engage in battle. Looking alike on pleasure and pain, on gain and loss, on victory and defeat, then prepare for battle, and thus you will not incur sin.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Then you do have divine intervention.
  Krishna is serving food to his guest.Suddenly he wants to depart which is considered rude while serving.Hid guest understanding Krishnas divinity asks him what the problem is.
  Krishna replies one of my devotes is in trouble ,he is about to be attacked by a big cat and he calls my name I must go and help.
  Krishna leaves but returns very fast to which the guest is surprised and again asks what happened why did you come back so fast?To this Krishna replies :"he didnt have enough faith,he picked up a stone."
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Mr.daeemomin, you are again intelligent and objective. Happy to accept that "man created gods". I am taking what is just and rational in your statement.
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  daeemominposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The first part of my statement is equally just and rational. You will accept it, if only you think. There is no rationale in denying one God.
  I always accepted that man created “gods”.
  You don’t believe in God simply because you don’t see Him.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Correct God is all including nature and we can tap into it. True death is the only way to comprehend god perfectly.
  
  Death is our friend,
  Where there is no trend,
  Why fear ,
  It is really near.
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VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years ago
Mr.Mark, Mr.Junkster, Ms.ding: A family is a unified social unit where we share our joy and sorrow together. If there are two different thoughts, how can a family be peaceful? Then where can we get that peace? After letting a wife to have a different thought, and then weeping like "no peace of mind"....? what life is it? It can be avoided, if women does not have a different thinking.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  If there are no different thoughts, how does this family grow and learn?
  
  I do not want a wife I can "let have a different thought." She is entitled to make her own. And maybe I can learn something new also. Albeit at the cost of "peace of mind."
  
  I certainly do not want a family that bases their entire thought processes around mine. What if I am wrong?
  
  You seem stuck in old thoughts and only accept what already fits your pre-conceived notions.
  
  How do you learn new things?
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Will different thoughts help family grow and learn? Certainly not.
  If you let your wife to have a different thought, you will be the loser. Not she.
  Dont be wrong. You will then satisfy with a family based on your thought.
  Old thoughts. Yes. My ancestors lived a successful life, and so do I.
  New things are not confined in potholes. Old thoughts never prevent new learnings. Go to
  Japan. Their social discipline make them proud.
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  Junksterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I think you'll be strongly opposed here by a ratio of around 1000:1
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  dingdongposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I hereby want to remind you about Periyar, because I have seen you talking about him in these forum threads. Tell me, don't you know why he wanted Indian women to be well educated? If you are denying the rights of a woman(basically to think on her own), in any family - I'm not pointing to you personally, mind it - many of our men are like that, so what does it actually mean by the family growth? How does it even help the society if every family is being lead by the same male-chauvinistic thought?
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  My dear sister ding, thanks for remembering me with Periyar. I want Indian women as well as men to be well educated. Family growth and women's rights are separate. As soon as marriage takes place, a man and woman become one as per our tradition. Then why do you separate them? Western style is fit for west only and not for India. Our customs, tradition and culture treat a family as one unit. There can be no difference in them as we dream. Man only is protecting women and children. If a man is attacked, the woman or his child cannot save him. But if that woman or child is under attack, the man will certainly save him.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  My wife is half-Japanese.
  
  I once called you ignorant, but I think I may have understated my case.......
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I have ignored it because it is not worth taking. Your rational arguments attract me. That is why I am replying you. But you feel happy to "ignore" others. Keep it... Happy to be called ignorant by people like you.
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Congratulations. She must be disciplined.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  another karate angle
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Friend Mohit, I dont know karate; even if he comes for it, I will follow the Indian way and bow before him. Because he is half way in my line, ie., rationalist thinking.
  Just he is fond of using the word "ignorant" whoever challenges him in an argument. That is all. Let him enjoy ! We shall take him as friend.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  We are debating,not getting physical dont worry about the ignorant bit I know you are not.
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  Junksterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  There's nothing rationalist about saying women should not have their own independant thoughts, oyu've already made that abundantly clear.
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Mr.Junk, no two persons can think alike 100% We differ on women's rights completely. But we somehow are nearer on religion and god.
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  Junksterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  For once I agree with you on some level! No two people can indeed think alike. Well done, but you made that sound like a terrible thing in earlier posts and unfortunately that makes us very different when it comes to gods and religions.
  
  You see I have no religious beliefs, you do. There couldn't be a greater dividie there my friend
  
  I will actually say that I won't bring up the subject of women's rights again since it's not conducive to this religious discussion, as abhorrent as I find it that people still have this archaic belief that women are beneath men in thoughts and opinions.
  
  So no more moaning from me
  
  Back to the latest discussion I find Mohitmisra's reasoning rather interesting, and he may have found another important point over the jesus: was he a man or god? He is revered as the son of god and in my view (being completely unbiased) that would make him a god himself, or at least the god inherit?
  
  I have always wondered when did they decide that the stories of the bible should end, or when to finish off the book and say "right, publish it!" You see I've forgotten my earlier catholic upbringing and often wonder why the bible isn't "still going"...strange I know but I think it's a good discussion point for the catholics/christians out there
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  Junksterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Mr Venugopal,
  
  That statement was stunningly and alarmingly offensive to about 50% of all human beings on the planet.
  
  What kind of backward indoctrination made you believe that a woman having a different thought (and this seems much more general than the discussed topic of religion) causes all manner of disruption.
  
  If my family all thought the smae as myself to be honest that owuld drive me insane, as would be the case with my friends too. You seem to languish in some existance where everyone subscribes to one "thought" and noone dare quesiton or rebel against this.
  
  I'd like to ask oyu in that case do you believe that one family as a "unified social unit" has the same "thought" as another family living next door? And if they don't is that also a bad thing that brings about "terrorism in the home" and "weeping like no peace of mind"?
  
  Apologies about being a Quoteasaurus Rex there, didn't want to misinterpret Mr Venugopal's words
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sandra rinckposted 15 years ago
Really stupid joke...

The Bible is like junk mail. You keep throwing it out, but still there is more. So you go to the United States Post Office and ask them to stop sending you junk mail, and they tell you...Too bad! lol

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VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years ago
My dear friend Mohit, I was thrilled to read a portion of Mahabharatha in your last comment here. When I was young, 50 years ago, I used to go and sit a whole night hearing Mahabharatha story, told by revered religious spokesmen. I, at that time got a resolve in myself not to err anywhere and do my duty perfectly. I completed my service with that resolve.
Now I am living peacefully with my family, telling old stories to my children, (who are software engineers and management professional). Mahabharatha is worth a thousand religious books..... the longest story yet in the whole world. The whole of India is bound as a single nation, (whoever comes to rule us), by the power of the two epics, Mahabharatha and Ramayana. They are the real binding force on our society.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Dear Venugopal.I love the Ramayana and Mahabharata.They are masterpieces which defy time.I love Krishna and his sayings. Each has a part or job to do and must do it the best he or she can
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  dingdongposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Nothing but great interesting STORIES
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Are they stories for you? I dont think so. They are our souls, our life, our culture, our civilisation. The Hindus' holy book "Bagavatgita" derives from Mahabaratha. Dont belittle them. If they do not fit your tastes, please leave it.
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  weblogposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Why are you getting disturbed?
  
  As far as there is no historical evidence, we can only consider them as stories. Please note that pushing your points on someone else won't work here. I see the moral in those epics, even though I don't get deep into the religious/spritual viewpoints. You see them in different way, DD sees as stories. Don't make it complicated. Everyone is not the same
  
  BTW, see the hangout forum.
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Historical evidence: Indraprasth is Delhi. Gurukshetra is in Haryana. Ayodhya in UP is Ayodhya where Rama was king. What more? Every religion has a book and a holy place. We also have them. Why should it be denied?
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  weblogposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Not so valid. I know those places are still there, still we have no proof that shows Ramayanam and Mahabharatham were inspired on real incidents. Moreover, have you not heard of Lankan people calling Ravana, the Lankeswar? Ravana is their hero, they will argue he was right. What to do? We still have controversies.
  
  I barely care for the evidences, to be more frank I don't care at all. As told already, I just accept the morals, I think it's enough to me
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ravana was a great Shiva bhakt who had undergone a lot of meditation and penance .He became very powerfull and started misusing his power.This is why Rama came to earth to restore this situation.
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  My father named me Ravana. My mother named me Sivagnanam. I remained in the former name in my early years and changed to the later, not to be engulfed in controversies. No one has the patience to understand both names are closely connected.
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  weblogposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Mohit, again it's not historical evidence, you get them from religious books. Exaggerations and imaginary additions are highly possible. Valmiki wrote the Ramayana, Kambar translated the same in tamil which was different story that consists some modifications. Apart from these, tamil poet Kannadasan wrote a book named Ravana Kaviyam(Venu might know) in which Ravana is the hero. So, where does it take to? Simply, I don't want any confusions because of such controversies - I repeat it, I see the morals, I'm not ready to analyse whether the books teach them in right way or not
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The morals are what is important.I have read these books and come to the conclusion that this is
  a Masters work,an enlightened ones work.Like the literary pundits say a poetry book on god or spiritual poetry is possible and carried out only by the enlightened ones.It takes years of work something a normal human will not do,rather cannot do.
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Accepting the morals is enough.. that is why Mahabharatha and Ramayana were written.
  But web, you have proved a true Indian. Indians never accept the truth around them till they reach their old age. I wont complicate further.
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  weblogposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks. Atheism and patriotism are entirely different. I have no confusion. Although the great Indian epics give us some good morals, however I can't say they are acceptable word by word. That's my stand about them
  
  Adding a side note, they are hindu religious books. Hinduism is not sole property of India, thus there would be no link to patriotism in following those books!
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Industan- living by the river Indus-Hindustan-Hindus.=India
  These are spiritual masterpieces ,how can they have a boundry? this is God and like I said before God is not restricted to any country or religion.
  
  Your country and Religion is part of your ego,
  For God even these one must let go.
  just wrote these line
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  dingdongposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Definitely not a good example of our culture. Can our current society accept such a Paanchaali and some men who have many wives(like Krishna)..?
  
  I don't see Rama was 100% perfect, if he was so Sita wouldn't have walked on fire to prove her chastity.
  
  Interesting stories...get it?
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Lord Krishna did have 2 wives only, Rukmani and Sathyabama. His childhood mischiefs were
  not repeated in his adulthood. Those mischiefs happen everywhere.
  Panchali had to live like that only because of tongue-slip.
  
  You doubt even Rama....? Great sin ! How many percent was he perfect.. please evaluate. My dear child, Sita's chastity has nothing to do with Rama's perfection. She had to prove her chastity before her countrymen. So they both became gods. You would have said otherwise if she refused to walk into the fire.
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  dingdongposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hmmm call me a 'sinner'...throw me in hell, fry me in oil pans...Religious jokes, right?
  
  Panchali married 5 men because of a tongue-slip and she happily slept with them for that sole reason...Great
  
  Ok, I'm not sure what can make a man perfect when he lets his wife prove her chastity before his countrymen just because she was abducted by a monster, it's a wonder that Ram was not even capable of convincing his countrymen instead of hurting his wife!
  
  Why all the fuzz? I'm not ready for anymore arguements based on those funny story books. Do you have something else?
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I have many things to argue..in this case... but not for you.
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  dingdongposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'm always ready, being these forums are open, you can't restrict me coming anytime into the discussion even if you don't want me to. Thanks
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Because you are "always correct", I did not want to disturb you ! But you seem not to give up. Let us pass some more time.
  In Mahabaratha, I did not see a word which mentioned "happily slept with 5 husbands". That epic was written by VedVyas to enlighten people about Karma. He would have forgotten to mention your worries. If you are interested to write a book on the left out portions in Mahabaratha, I would suggest a few names.
  In the whole epic, the only divine element is Lord Krishna and his "Bagawat Gita". We need not focus our attention on other things.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA insulting is easy appreciating spiritual scriptures require intelligence and effort-let it be
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  dingdongposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, why should I give up? I'm not focusing on you or your messages alone, I said I'm ready to leave a message wherever and whenever it's appropriate in forum threads
  
  How did she live then? Unhappy? As a Sex Slave?
  
  Just like a commercial cinema has 99% of violence(in the name of action block) and finally ends with a moral insisting non-violence?
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Please dont elaborate further. I have also criticised these things.
  Mahabharath has also come as cinema, which a dream world. Even there, your imaginations are missing. Without eradicating violence, how will peace prevail?. That is shown as cinema.
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  dingdongposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  There lies the point - too much of imagination and exaggerations, don't argue that those story books(epics?) are true incidents narrated near perfectly like truth. Get it?
  
  If we go on arguing about cinemas, that will be an interested topic to me...But, this forum is not for that. However, I clearly see that you are twisting my point whereas I took cinema for example, main point is the vulgarity in the story books.
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You are twisting religious books as vulgar. Why not take good things?
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I agree vulgar is a a poor word to describe such holy books.
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  dingdongposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Simple, the worst things look prominent. And, there is never a need for taking those RARE good things from those joke books, we learn something new everyday in life.
  
  Gandhi lived and proved his principles, we have evidences and lot of good people are there in our history for us to adore and follow. We don't actually need religious morals. I don't have to follow Ram or Krishna blindly on reading the story books that you believe on.
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No one insist you to believe "joke" books. Enough if morals only are taken.
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  dingdongposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I know, nobody did and nobody can. It all started with your twisting attitude, anyway we had a nice arguement I believe
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  weblogposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Mr.Venu -
  
  The way the violence is shown does matter. We do have proper censor board for movies, but what do you think was the reason for them to write such Panchali like stories in the midst of religious preachings? Do you think those ancient writers didn't know it was controversial?
  
  Gita could have come straight with no such mess!!!
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I also do not subscribe to the Panchali theory. Perhaps may have been popular in those days, in those places. I did hate the silence of 5 husbands of Panchali when she was unrobed. They say they could not do anything as she was already lost in the game. Though she was lost to Gauravas, Pandavas should have acted on humanitarian grounds. There are 100s of controversies in both epics.
  But we have to respect our forefathers.. who wrote them
  Krishna's Gita is the only useful thing in that whole epic.
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  weblogposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Mostly correct
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thre is a big difference between an interesting story and a masterpiece which shows one how to live life correctly and gain liberation.
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