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I know this topic has been brought up before, but I recently saw a post on youtube of a young man who claims this is the case and made quite a creative, short video poem/rap to tell why. I've seen it plastered all over facebook walls and other media sites, so thought I'd post it here to see what YOU think! Check it out:
Loved the video!
The invention of man and the infection which the young man spoke of is what John wrote about in Rev. 13, almost 300 years before it came into being.
NOW ... in defence of religion; .... Many people have found God through these last 1600 years because of religion that would not otherwise have found him.
Now this is only my interpretation and estimations, ... about 25% of people in religion are Holy people, and 25% are unholy people, and the rest haven't jumped the fence yet.
Why not love everybody? One does not need religion for that.
Yes--I'm exploring this issue myself. I've seen good come out religion and I've seen bad come out of it. I guess what I'm wondering about, personally, is could a better good, minus the bad, come out of something other than religion--like an alternative that has the best of all things?
True, Seek-n-Find. Jesus is beyond religion, he represents our whole being, created in his image and likeness, all of us created out of his 'Love.'
For everything there is a season.
I think that when the right time comes ..... there will be a better thing come out of it ALL.
Hi Seek, yeah, I saw it and though the video was very good. And I disagree with a lot of his thoughts regarding religion. I'm not sure if he's a Protestant or Catholic but it doesn't really matter.
I agree with him that we all have a personal journey toward God. Given that, I don't think religion replaces that journey, he seems to think it's like a bus that takes you to God, that's my main disagreement. I see religion as a way for Christians to feed themselves spiritually and to remind them of Jesus and God through ritual. We are human and as humans we get caught up in all the material stuff. Religion was established to remind you that there are things other than the material and that the personal journey does not have to be made alone. Jesus himself had companions, he wasn't a loner. Yes, religion being a man made effort is not perfect but that doesn't negate it. Jesus himself established ritual, why else do we have communion? We have communion as a ritual so that we remember Jesus and his life. Jesus also said that Peter was the rock on which he will build his church. A church without religion is just a building.
There were also lots of other things he said, one that stood out was why does religion build churches so grand and leave people hungry. I don't know of any Christian church that doesn't try to help poor people in some fashion. And not all churches are grand, some are quite humble. A beautiful church is also a blessing. It's nice to have service or mass in a beautiful place, and everyone is welcome, you don't have to buy a ticket.
So as to your question, can you love Jesus and hate religion, I would say no.
You make some good points Cassie. I went to a church and I guess it was "religion" I was involved in and it blessed me in many ways. But it also hurt me in many ways, too, because I had programs and friends and teachings and rituals but I didn't find my own, authentic relationship with Jesus until I went to college and left the "religious" aspect of my church and life behind. Rituals can be good if the heart is in it (i.e. communion as per your example) but can be damaging if one is just going through the motions. I guess the question that can be asked is--what is Church? Can you have church without religion--and what's the difference? Defining of terms seems to be crucial. Thanks for your feedback! :-)
To me, the difference between Religion and Church is that religion describes the beliefs and the structure to support it while the Church defines, defends, enforce, and evangelizes the practice of it. So there is the Christian religion with many Churches: Catholic, Protestant, and Eastern Orthodox with all its various sects. And then there is church which is not only the building but also the local spiritual center of the followers, and it is entrusted with the important task of educating the children in the faith.
My experience of church is a mix of blessing and curse. When I was younger the Bible stories seemed so simple but as you get older you get faced with a lot of conflicting interpretation on the little things. But the way I look at it, that's why you undertake the journey because you don't look at things the way a child does any more and you have to find your way to your faith, Jesus, and God.
I would have to agree with the video, most churches to get into the rituals and rules. Even argue with the church down the block because they don't agree. They start wars between churches and nations, because someone else isn't doing things the right way, reading the right bible, books, etc. I've seen this with the local churches in my area, and why I refuse to be part of the war. I have a personal relationship with Jesus, not personal relationship with any religion. I get what the guy is saying, and fortunately being a christian all my life, I've seen to many in my community speak the word, memorize it, but never act it out through their walk. I don't think I can hate religion, but hate the fact that man rather choose man made rituals and rules, and never get the full picture of what Jesus was doing i peoples lives.
religion is an invention of man. I would attest that you cannot love Jesus and love religion since religion perverts the words of God and Jesus
I understand. This has been an interesting topic to think about! Thank you for your answer. :-)
no problem. Have you read my hub "Who's going to hell and for how long"?
Bottom line is this; anything derogatory said, done or blamed in the name of one's religion is a contradiction in terms…period. As far as Jesus goes, I suppose he is so intertwined into the Christian religion that it may be difficult for some to separate the two. If you believe in a higher power that represents the greater good, than have at it and worship away. But please don’t use your god as an excuse to belittle anyone, verbally barrage non-believers, knock on my door, or blow up ANYTHING. The Golden Rule should be the very first line in every ‘Good Book’ published. If its connotations are not intertwined into the very fiber of a religion’s fundamental teachings, why then, we have a red flag.
Some important points made! A message of love should be not so much preached as it is lived out! I love a quote I once heard: "Always preach the Gospel, and occasionally use words." Actions show the true message and unfortunately sometimes the messengers of the one who is the Message get it all mixed up. Thanks for your comment!
I'm not as pretty and eloquent as my Brother in the video; but I been saying the same thing in the religious forums all the time I'v been on hub pages. Cults are evil and dangerous. God is love.
I think one can definitely love Jesus and hate religion. I know quite a few Christians who do not belong to a particular church.
Each religion interprets Jesus's teachings in its own way, and over the years each has developed an overlay of traditions and prejudices, and a hierarchy. It can be hard to find a religion that accords in every way with one's own interpretation of His teachings.
The only religion I know which allows you freedom to interpret the Bible in your own way is the Quakers (Society of Friends).
You might consider the necessity of religion as lined out in the Bible and study these words; "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:"
One would think that the way he set it all up, necessitates organization, however it does not mean that the organization is always the right one. Might I suggest to keep searching rather than throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Thanks for your comment--I'm searching. :-) I'm trying to determine the difference between the Church and church and Religion and religion and Faith and faith and Relationship and relationship. Labels can be so messy and tricky but we use words to communicate ideas so I'm trying to wade my way through the various ideas that use the same words--you know what I mean? What one thinks when they hear religion can be very different than what another thinks when hearing the very same word. I'm working on my--"spiritual dictionary" if you will. Thanks for the comment!
Religion has caused more problems in our World than any other thing. We should all try to follow the teachings of Jesus to the Letter. This cannot be done through a book or a building.
Jesus Himself wants teach each one of us personally, the only way this can be done is to first ask. Knock on his door and he will open it, second find a quiet place where you cannot be disturbed, I find four o'clock in the morning works for me.
Empty your mind of any other thoughts, this is very difficult proccess to do and takes a lot of practice. The results will shock you, don't take my word for it, try it for yourself, not just for a couple of minutes at least two hours to start.
The more time you put into getting quiet without thinking of anything else at all, except Jesus, the faster your progress will become. Think about it, any other thoughts are just distractions, keeping us all away from the real truth.
This is why there are so many other belief systems and faiths, keeping us occupied, arguing over who is right or who is wrong, a diversion tactic dreamed up by Men to keep us away from the real truth.
The latter was the cause of the former.
Yes, thinking does distract from believing, in fact, it is decimated altogether by believing.
No, there are many other belief systems and faiths because of geography, and they all say theirs is the real truth, just like you say about your faith.
That would be a very good indication that all belief systems and faiths are wrong.
I don't actually hate religion, but I don't have much use for most organized religions. I do love Jesus, however.
I totally think you can. Because religion is organized and in many cases says people have to do things to please God or Gods, but loving Jesus and truly accepting him as Savior is totally different. The church is a place for Christians to gather and learn about Jesus. I found the video to be very good and have to say, good job to the guy.
The guy on the video expressed it well, kind of like my mystic feeling about Jesus too, religion carries wrong translation
Even organizations that start with one person's vision can misinterpret and twist the message over time. It's interesting to study the history of organizations and see the beliefs of the founder and compare to how the organization runs current day. This is a bit of a wandering off the point--but your comment made me think of this. Thanks!
This is, indeed, one aspect of the church. I think there is a difference between religion and The Church and a church (as in the building). Thanks for your comment. :-)
The points expressed in the video make sense to an increasing number of people. It is obvious that there is a wide gap between the teachings of Jesus and the actions of those who claim to believe in him. Jesus taught not to judge, yet Christians are often the most judgemental of people. Christ believed in helping the poor and the sick, yet these are the last people conservative Christians, who believe being Rupublican is the same as being Christian seem to have time for. And the wealth of religion, would seem to go against everything Jesus stood for. So, yes, I would say it is possible to believe in the teachings of Christ, whilst rejecting religion.
Muldania, I acknowledge this as a true problem. Some Christians follow in the footsteps of Jesus, while others claim to do so but do not. It is my hope that all who claim to believe in something and follow someone live their lives accordingly to the best of their ability. Hypocrisy is, indeed, a very harmful thing. Thanks for your comment!
The teachings alleged to be those of the alleged preacher allegedly named Jesus.. but, hey, sure: if you tear away all the religious malarkey, its a great philosophy.
Valentine Smith has a great philosophy in ""Stranger in a Strange Land" too. I'd think you a bit odd if you told me you "loved" him.
You can easily love Jesus and hate religion, but religion is important by means of discovery. By this I mean, there are multiple people that would not love Jesus if it was not for religion introducing Him.
I tend to agree with PDXKaraokeGuy.... here is why:
Religion is what you do on a day to day basis.
With repect to Theism Religion is the Works type systems that Paul called Dead works.
James said Faith without works is dead.. rightly so...
Because Works of the right type.. will follow when True Faith is combined with Belief resulting in Salvation and a Changed life...
The right works... the right type of Religion that is pure before God is what follows... Charity... Love for others etc.
Yeah, works come as a fruit/result of right relationship with God, not from trying to earn. We first receive so that we can then give out of that place of overflowing abundance. It doesn't work too well the other way around. Thanks for your viewpoint!
I saw this video last week and couldn't agree more with this young man. All we need to do is take a look at what religion has caused in our world to see that he has a very valid point. The opposite of "religion" is war... Jesus would not agree with all the fighting happening presently I'm certain.
Let's not forget also all the religious leaders who are constantly molesting young boys, judging others, and cheating on their wives. If that's what religion is all about I'll pass and continue to love Jesus without subscribing to any religion! When I finally meet him if I'm wrong for thinking this way then JESUS/GOD can be the judge and deal with me accordingly.
Unfortunately, there are people in all religions and non-religions alike committing such crimes and sins. Jesus was opposed to the religious teachers of his day, not because they were "religious" I don't think--but because he knew their hearts and what they made themselves look to be on the outside and who they were on the inside did not match. I think it is okay to judge actions as just or unjust, it's just not our role to judge people. Thanks for your comment!
Jesus wasn't a christian. If asked, I'm sure he said he was a Hebrew, and so, was of the Judaic faith. I think he believed in Judaism. "I come, not to change the law, but to fulfill it!"
Indeed--Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi. Those that followed Jesus became the first "Christians" (meaning little Christ). If I recall correctly, I think they referred to themselves as the followers of "The Way." I heard that somewhere--I better revisit that. Jesus created a way for both the Jews and the Gentiles to be 'united into the new man' and thus what is referred to as Christianity was born. That term has meant (and still does) different things throughout history! Labels can be so tricky. Thanks for your comment.
Everybody should watch this response:
Caution: some vulgarity. But it's spot on and very entertaining (especially the part on Coke and soda).
Christians can rebrand their religion as a "relationship" or whatever they want, but it is simply rhetoric and poetic phrasiology. On a substantive level, it is still a religion.
This all stems from Christians' desire to distinguish their belief system from other belief systems that they (of course) consider to be wrong.
Funny story: Muslims say the same thing. Jews say the same thing. Everybody thinks "I have the truth, but everyone else is wrong."
I agree with much of Bo7Z is saying also. That's why I only feeling mystic about Jesus for the positive thing Jesus said, yet weeded out all the wrong translation text. Jesus must have been a very intelligent and spiritual man for his time, lets not forget more importantly living for today with great people or today, we have it much better than the hardship of pass centuries
I like what the guy has to say, but I can't see myself darkening the doors of Church again for some time yet. My experience of them is the religion he talks about merged with a horrible nicey nicey pleasantville apple pie.
Haha...I'm not sure if laughing is the right response...but I've never heard church described the way you just did, so I just had to laugh. I thank you for your comment and may you find truth on your journey outside the confines of the religious establishments, of which it seems you were hindered more than helped.
I saw the video. His points are true. His conclusion is wrong. The hypocrisy he is rebelling against is within individuals that participate in churches. Jesus did not preach against the church, though (Do as they say, not as they do). He instituted one church which fulfilled the scriptures and continued the old covenant which now included the Jews and beyond. He chose Peter and addressed him as the leader and a few breathes later called him Satan. Individuals choose to follow God or not. One moment Peter chose to see Jesus as the truth and the next he was persuading Jesus away from pain and His mission. He cried bitterly later and maintained his choice with Jesus till death.
The poet says Jesus is within him. Yes. Jesus forgave. Is there forgiveness in the poet towards the hypocrites? It's hard. It's Jesus' way.
Ahhhh...interesting response and yes, I see what you are saying. Wheat and tares will remain side by side until the appointed time--both within and outside of the church and within and outside of religion. Good points! Although I do think there is a difference between "The Church" and "Religion." Would you say there is a difference? Thanks for your comment. :-)
There is a difference. Jesus, by His own definition is Truth. Religion is the structured participation of individuals in a relationship with God (and each other). Once you believe that Jesus is God you need to define how to relate with Him.
Each Christian church focuses on a different way to relate with Jesus, thru His resurrection, life or passion. The individual should look at the basis, the formation and tenets of each church in order to belong or not - not necessarily on the people within the church since as people we all are fallible.
Ah, but we don't have one church now, we have many different religions. And the church founded by Peter was hugely changed by Paul and all those who came later.
If you see religion that turns people to slaves and bigotry then you have to oppose the concept of religion. It really depends on how you understand the word religion...
Re: The Title of the OP.
That's like asking if you love bowling but hate rolling a large ball down a narrow passageway to knock down wooden pins.
Disagree. One can love learning and hate a corrupt institution of education. One can love justice and hate a corrupt police building. One can love a candidate in an election and hate the corruption of politics. One can love a leader and hate some of its followers. I'm not encouraging others to hate. I'm just trying to discern what is the difference between Jesus, relationship with God, religion, and the Church and church. Thanks!
Excellent analogies, all! You know, I think the most simplistic answer to your question is a resounding yes. Simplistic because in the most elementary description, Jesus was a kind, giving, altruistic, philanthropic, healing, non-judgmental man, correct? Who wouldn't love him? He needn't have been labeled the Son of God to have anyone follow him...which takes religion out of the equation, does it not? Hence, you could love Jesus and know nothing of the entity that religion has become. If it has to be a choice between knowing, loving, and hating religion, it will all boil down to each individual's experiences. I do not hate any religion...though I also do not follow any religion...I just try to be the best person I can be and wish the same for everyone else. For the record, I do pray every night, and I address Him as God.
Church is a man made establishment, as are all religions and sacraments, so they will be flawed because man is involved. It is when the masses begin to assign omnipotent power to anyone or anything that causes the problems.
As part of the masses, you just accomplished what you said causes the problems.
Please elaborate on how, exactly, I have caused a problem with my post.
You pray to an invisible sky fairy that you call God, hence you have "assigned omnipotent power" which YOU claim causes problems. See?
No, apparently I am blind. I have not erected a monument for people to come and worship, nor do I preach to anyone about my thoughts on the subject. If I choose to speak to my ‘invisible sky fairy’, it has no bearing whatsoever on ‘the masses’. Also, I have not assigned said fairy as having omnipotent powers. I believe there is a higher power, which is my right, of course, though I conduct my life in a manner that pleases me which is that of doing unto others as I would have them do unto me, pure and simple. If there is a person, place, mantra, prayer, sitcom, etc., that gives a person peace, then I am all for it. You, on the other hand, seem only to be interested in disharmony. I will pray to my sky fairy for you.
Of course, it is your right to assign omnipotent power to whatever it is you believe exists.
Perfect. Tell your sky fairy to come pay me a visit so we can chat and have tea and cucumber sandwiches.
Ribbit, ribbit, ribbit. I hear a forum frog ambushing the unsuspecting with its sticky tongue.
Posts like that would make one assume that is actually you in your avatar considering how childish your responses are.
At least I'm a nice person. Yes I hop forums, at least most of my coments are constructive. What can you say for yourselve's? "I like pointing fingers and judging people unfairly". Is that about right? Grow up and judge yourselve's for a while, when you can be constructive and kind, then answer posts. If not, I'll just ignore you and hopefuly others will follow in suit.
What'sup with you today? I'm not calling you a forum frog. You are crossing a busy street. Look both ways.
There's my man! That "Troubled Man" (really a woman) started up with me a while back. I think she is a dying remnant of Marxist sponsored pie holes who want to remove religion (Marx : religion is the opiate of the people) from public life and replace it with a repressive government that never comes within a universe of reaching true communism (as if that is possible). I recognize the jargon from the day. I am trying to give her directions to I95. She wants to stay in town and complain about the pizza.
Your kind of anti-religion is probably healthy.
Your not anti religion..... or are you?
That's not what the title says and yes you are encouraging others to hate.
There is no difference between religion and your beliefs in Jesus, but there is a difference between religion, your beliefs in religion and the church.
What you don't seem to understand is that if not for the church you wouldn't have religion or your beliefs.
So, to say you like one thing and not the other is sheer hypocrisy.
No, you shall continue to make false statements and they shall be exposed as such.
I have no desire or need to categorize myself or others, nor do I wish to be inflammatory or confrontational. All of that nonsense is counterproductive to an otherwise peaceful and harmonic exchange of ideas forum.
Yet, you felt compelled to be inflammatory and confrontational. Seems your actions and your wishes are not in "harmonic exchange"
True that when feeling confronted, I have a tendency to stand up for myself...I am just silly like that. So happy to see you smile, though.
I thought the video was brilliant! I did not agree with everything he said but most was not only true in my mind but also creatively spoken and it got my attention.
I am the perfect example of a 'recovering catholic', most of my life abiding by the churche's rules, all the while being preached down to, being threatened of eternal damnation if I didn't follow all the man made rules.
About 20 years ago, I realized that I don't need a formal religion or to go to a specific building each week to be a Christian. Christianity is a state of being which comes from within. I love my fellow man and try to do the next right thing. I love my family and know that as I would never want to curse or punish my children, either would my God or Jesus.
think to the history of jesus and teachings never change, but churches do, and people do. The way church and religion was at that point in time, and today is two different things.
I know a loaded question when I see it. Jesus himself was anti-religion and all Love!
Thanks for your comment. Do you think Jesus was anti-religion in terms of the establishment of his day or anti-religion altogether? Do you think the errors of religion then are the same errors now? Thanks!
I don't think Jesus is against organization, he is against man made hierarchies, misplaced priorities, and self righteousness. I played on the "Worship Team" of a renewal fueled, Charismatic, semi-mega church. There was a lot of bull. I also worked at a mental health facility for adolescents, and was involved in some community development projects with a Christian based, multi-church community development group and some other do-gooder operations.
It was a trip. We could never make progress for all of the what if's, we'll have to get approval from so and so, I'm sorry you can't get there from here (I am in the way), and put that on paper . . . we'll discuss it later spirits plaguing the effort. There were power trips, and committees to deal with. We met monthly for over a year to do a one week project.
The people who were in leadership were clueless in the hood, but were reluctant to let the gifted carry the ball. The committee meetings were so weird, that I had to seek the Lord about it. You know haw everyone always says,"If it is the Lord's will it will happen." Wanna bet? Anyway, while I was frustrated and confused by the pace of the committees (mainly made up of church leaders) I read about how they sent twelve to spy out the promised land. It hit me, "They did it by committee! Only two came back with a good report."
So, yes. Modern religion is of a different flavor, but it is still hard to swallow. "My burden is easy and my yoke is light." Jesus is the root, the head, the all in all. When we are not walking in his Spirit, we are practicing a dead religion.
Now, I am not comfortable discussing these things with the likes of A Troubled Man laying in wait. That lady never gives up.
Well-said! I don't think I could have worded that any better. I agree.
How frustrating! I can relate. I've worked in many organizations, including churches, where this was the case, as well. That's what happens when man tries to lead instead of trusting God to lead. Their intentions seem to be good--but they end up getting in the way of the very goals they wish to accomplish!
Yes--I've experienced that. I finally found a ministry that is different from any church or ministry I've ever been a part of before. They are the first I've met that really empower and train and equip each person to function within the God-given gifts and calling that is on each life. Its like they look at how God made you, come alongside you to help you find your destiny, and then support you as you take initiative to partner with God and each other to walk it out. It's messy in other ways because there is not as much oversight because they are not seeking to control. Accountability is there, but there is room to "learn and grow" and we are all doing it together. I could say more, but I guess I want to encourage you that these kinds of communities do exist. We all came out of what we saw wasn't working and said, "God--you lead us" and we are learning together as we go.
Thanks for sharing--I can relate to a lot of what you have said--and I really appreciate your comment. :-)
found this, and it is pretty good http://huiothesian.wordpress.com/2012/0 … tomies/-it mentions some things that were mentioned in the other video, but it does point out Jesus's religious affiliation and his relation to the church and it's importance. Another good and interesting video
I love that guy! I just made a hub about him too. But to answer your question based on the way Rob puts it in his poem, Yes you can.
I also read recently about a well known pastor (Francis?) who left his very wealthy church he built to go out into the world to spread this same message. I plan to research more about him too.
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Hi friendsJesus did not die on the Cross. He survived.I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.Thanks
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