Could America survive without the public school system?
I rent an apartment but still pay school taxes. I don't even have any kids
Oh no- Little Rock was a different time, place and situation. I believe we were talking about the origin of massed schooling. So, fine! You gave me homework to do. I went and looked it up.
"Our form of ocmpulsory schooling is an invention of the State of Massachusetts around 1850. It was resisted - sometimes with guns - by an estimated eighty percent of the Massachusetts population, the last outpost in Barnstable on Cape Cod not surrendering its children until the 1880's, when the area was seized by militia and children marched to school under guard." (John Taylor Gatto, "Dumbing Us Down")
OK, so I got the state wrong
As far as in whose opinion the theories are faulty - that would be assorted sociologists, psychologist, historians, and education activists throughout history. One would assert their theory and put it into play - others who came later would either dispute and replace with a new theory or simply build on top of what came before, leading to the system as we know it.
Yet, some historians looking back on the particular studies and data that originally allowed these theories to be put into practice have found major flaws, if not complete falsehoods, in the information. Ahhh, there's nothin' like good ol' "spin" when building a foundation on which to raise future generations.
Under what assumption are you basing your view on?
The price argument is a legitimate argument, because public education actually does not cost as much as private schools cost the families putting their kids through those schools.
You say that the price would come down? I say you would be wrong, because those who control the wealth, would not let the price of education fall to a point that it is simply given away.
Nope, not buying it.
Rather highway robbery
Good luck Evan, I envy your enthusiasm - but I gave up on these people long ago...
I agree with this post. The public education system in this country is broken, but better a broken public education system than none at all!
My nephew/ward attends a local Catholic school with a good reputation, yet he already knows more about American history and government than any of his classmates, despite only living in this country for three years. He also knows more about Catholic theology than any of them, despite being one of the only non-Catholics in the school, and has read more books in English than all but a couple of his classmates, despite having only spoken it for three years.
This is because my husband and I care about his grades and his education and provide tons of enrichment outside of school, including a personal library of nearly 1000 books and weekly trips to the local public library. If their kids are any basis to judge, very few of the other parents do any more than the bare minimum to keep their kids in the school.
In between this experience and my own experience in public school before my parents started homeschooling us, I frankly don't think the majority of parents give a sh*t about their kids' education, so if school of some sort wasn't compulsory and free public schools weren't an option, I think we'd devolve into a nation of illiterates and morons in very little time. Even many parents who DO care can't afford to send their kids to private school and don't have the capability to homeschool them, thanks to, for example, both having full-time jobs.
I have no interest in living in a third world country ruled by an uneducated mob, so I gladly pay taxes to support public education, even though I don't ever plan to use it for my own kids. For much the same reason, I do not mind my taxes going to welfare programs. Going without food or medical attention does horrible things to children's performance in school, so I don't believe any child should be allowed to drop below a certain standard of living in any country claiming to call itself civilized. Not if we want our country to REMAIN civilized, at any rate. Welfare has its problems, sure, but far, far better to have a few people abusing the system than millions falling through the cracks and ending up living in cardboard boxes and crime- and disease-ridden shantytowns like those that cover the Third World. I'd much rather take a bite out of the 50+% of my tax dollars that go to military spending.I figured that's what you'd say, and that's why I said you were romantic. Churches and private charities are great, but they can only do so much, and the kinds of slums I'm talking about that were common in the past in this country and the Third World today are multi-generational. If your parents, siblings, grandparents, uncles, cousins, friends, neighbors, and children are all making $1 a day just like you, how are they going to help you in any meaningful way?
I'm sorry, but the government is the only entity that is large enough and with a broad enough scope to do the kind of significant social engineering that was required, for example, to stop poor parents from sending their kids to work 16 hour days in dangerous factories and send them to school instead.
I don't like the government sticking its nose in things that are not its business any more than you do, but democracy requires an educated and informed populace to be sustained, so in this case I think it absolutely is government's duty to educate our youth if their parents are unwilling or unable to educate them themselves (or via private means), and I think it's our duty as citizens to demand that the government neither shirk that duty nor do an inadequate job.
It obviously is doing the latter, but I think that says more about our priorities as a society than the government's genuine ability (or lack thereof) to run a good education system. What the FRAK is wrong with us when we spend hundreds of billions of dollars annually fighting two wars we never even should have CONSIDERED entering into, yet we can't scrape together the money to save the hundreds of teaching jobs being cut this year in my city alone due to budget cuts? If things keep going this way, I guess you'll get your wish soon enough. It will be interesting to see if it's really the libertarian utopia you envision.You're being romantic again. In a perfect world, yes, parents would take responsibility for educating their children well and people would take care of their elderly and sick relatives.
However, it's not a perfect world, people in general mostly suck, and therefore we need to take steps to ensure that the most vulnerable sectors of our society (including children, the elderly, and the sick) have an alternative way of getting their basic needs taken care of. I would be just fine with punishing able-bodied adults who are just too lazy to work, if it wasn't the people who depended on them who ultimately suffered as a result, but it is. Why should we punish children for being born to loser parents who shirk their responsibilities?
Nobody is claiming education should be socialized completely, just that free public education needs to remain an option, and should be improved in quality rather than eviscerated further.
I do, however, feel it's necessary to point out that those horrible social democracies in Europe consistently beat us by miles in every marker of educational achievement except the performance of the very best students (which is comparable), so maybe if you really care more about improving education in this country than attaining some ahistorical vision of libertarian paradise, you should be promoting socialism instead of making ignorant comments about it. Or at least studying it to figure out what they're doing right, so we can try to duplicate it. Ideological purity is only justifiable when it WORKS.
Kerry, here I think is where we diverge. I don't think that illiteracy (or lack of formal education in any other form) begets moronity.
I understand. I actually have a daughter who fits the bill you laid out.
She dropped out at the age of 18 - when the law would allow it. (at least she kept me from going to jail due to truancy - lol)
It seems to me we are heading backward into the era before public education was was considered a privilege.
Don't make assumptions about me, okay?? I was forced to quit my job due to a b!ich of a manager throwing me under the bus. Thank you, I enjoyed it tremendously for the 4 months after she was fired.
Bashing an entire group of people based on the actions of 1 is considered Discrimination. Next time, bash the single person, not all who might fit the profile.
Let me get this straight...you're saying the source of a persons poverty is due to the government providing a free education?
Sorry, but that really is hilarious. Education has been proven to improve a persons life, not destroy it.
BTW - a lower wage wasn't an option for me to remain employed. Nope. The only option was to 'admit' my b!tch of a manager was telling the truth.
The schools inside each State should be funded by State and other Private Organizations.
The "Federal" Government should not have anything to do with it. And, the fact that Federal Government strangles States(suggesting the loss of federal funding for services in order to get bills passed is ridiculous) should be down-right illegal.
It's a sad fact that the politicians in each State refuse to take responsibility, as they are suppose to, then the Schools system wouldn't be in trouble or seen as a bad thing.
Just a thought.That is quite a lot you've said, but I am pretty sure it goes deeper than just what you said. Government has been broke for years, but as far as printing money? It's actually illegal for the government to print it's own money. Thinking that they can just print money and it not have an effect is absolutely foolish.
The Federal Reserve Bank, which is NOT owned or operated by the Government(that goes for the entire world, in case you did not know).
Just a thought. Thanks for your thought!
Printing money has had an effect: inflation, which is what we're experiencing now. The paper money we have now can not be backed in gold or silver from the Federal Reserve because that much hard money doesn't exist in the Fed's Bank.
If the government (or Fed Reserve) doesn't print more money, then where did the money for the stimulus package come from? What's mysterious to me is that the requests to audit the Fed (a simple request) have been shushed and refused.
- I wonder which private school would have accepted my children when I couldn't afford to pay the tuition & all scholarship money was already used? Then again, I wonder which private school would have been able to provide the physical therapy, occupational therapy for the first few years and the speech and language therapy my son needed throughout his school years? NONE!! They would have sent him to the public schools for these services thereby sacrificing more of his education due to transporation times. Because, let me tell you, Insurance wouldn't pay for it. Treatment for Autism isn't covered by insurance.
America's debt is deep, but it's not that deep yet. But, you do raise a valid point. However, should America go bankrupt, a child's education is going to be the least of many people's worries.
Because, said bankruptcy will break every person in the country. Pricing structures will crumble, the federal notes will become worthless(not that they had any value to begin with) and life is going to become more uncivilized than you could ever imagine.
So, with that said- let me give you an example of what I mean- I'm not sure how old you are and it could play a factor- but do you or have you ever seen or heard of the TV Show Little House on The Prairie? If so, good- times like that will come.
The cities will become empty. Everything of value each person owns, is already been accounted for, in the debt of the nation. To clear the books, every citizen would have to walk away from everything they own, and start completely fresh.
Ugly picture, but very possible.Hey Rose, I recently answered a question posed by another Hubber, with regards to "quality of life" versus "standard of living".
I think you might like it. It might even show you something different. I'm not self-promoting, but to get my point across, I ask that you read it. You do not have to leave a comment, unless you want to. It's only for spreading what is common knowledge to most, but unseen by many. Don't forget, the Little House books have a political agenda as well. They just happen to have one that agrees with your own.
They were heavily edited before publication by LIW's daughter, one of the founders of the modern libertarian movement.
The reality was a good deal less romantic:
"The Wilders' life on a shrinking frontier was considerably bleaker than even the Ingallses' had been. The first decade of their marriage, as Laura later recalled, was a period of almost unrelieved calamity and failure. Their infant son died. Drought and hail destroyed their crops, and they struggled to pay the interest on their heavily mortgaged house and equipment. Then the house burned down. Almanzo had a stroke, brought on by diphtheria, and he never fully recovered from the paralysis. Virtually destitute, they embarked on a series of futile peregrinations, by train and wagon, across the Midwest, with a wretched interlude on the Florida Panhandle. In 1894, they were uprooted by one of the worst depressions in American history, and headed for the Ozarks, which had been touted by promoters as yet another promised land. They struggled for years to eke out a living from the rocky soil."
The books also conveniently neglect to mention that the Ingalls spent some years as illegal squatters on Osage reservation land. So much for respect for private property.
http://jezebel.com/5329088/little-house … untainhead
http://www.oyate.org/index.php?option=c … d=35:avoid
Absolutely Rose, I do think that America would have been in much better shape now if there was no such thing as public education (read brainwashing the public) and corresponding departments, both on federal and state levels.
Who did this before government monopolized education and charity? Some would say the church, I would say the people.
In fact the people are still paying for this, just the lion share of what we are paying goes to support the army of government clerks and their inefficient projects...
- Brenda Durhamposted 13 years ago
0 Evan - no, I ask every tax-time, but there is nothing for homeschoolers in the state of California and we do pay taxes for our schools.
Thanks for the encouragement. There are certainly days when I REALLY need it.
P.S. I'm a girl I know it's hard to tell with the feathers and all 
And, who are you to say that it shouldn't exist? Just because it run foolishly, doesn't mean it shouldn't exist. It requires more responsible people at the helm, than ignorant.
What gives you the right to say that other families should not have access to an education? If it cannot be provided at home, because the parent are unable to, then they have a secondary choice.
You choose to home school your children. Fine. No problem. Don't be surprised when they grow isolated from interacting with others that comes from the differences in people and spurs growth.
You want to argue about those who run it? Fine. But, that is where you stop.
Otherwise, you are infringing upon the rights of others. The State and Federal government have public schools so people can get a education and America can grow.Education is not an entitlement.
Everyone has a right to learn. Where they learn is not for you to decide.
I don't understand this 'whole language reading instruction' you're talking about. Does it refer to 'Phonics'?
I don't think compulsory education seriously has a negative effect on literacy. I think the issues are more demographic related. More along the lines of adjusted statistics for an inflated population.
Thoughts and perspectives, I think, are more highly influenced by family than schooling. At least among those families that communicate with each other.
Incredible advances....where would the world be today if - the incredible minds of the past weren't nurtured or didn't exist? I don't agree with you. Would Einstein still have come up with the Theory of Relativity had he not been educated?
Yes, education has changed - and I believe its a good thing.Why the h@ll would they replace Phonics? lol It worked, didn't it? Stupidity if you ask me. (seems to me my kids learned with Phonics...)
The early years are when kids learn the most & fastest. Thoughts and Perspectives of the family are internalized during that time. When kids get older they challenge them and then choose for themselves whether or not to keep or change them. It's healthy. Sure, sometimes negative experiences will occur but it's basically a risk of life. Can't raise kids in a plastic bubble, ya know.
I think the parents ought to be blamed if they're not communicating with their kids. It's called Accountability & Responsibility. (not saying there should be anything other than natural or logical consequences...I mean, nothing legally enforced in that way)
May I suggest you read my hub "How to Raise a Moronic Genius"? Then we can discuss Einstein issues further. (what would have happened had he not been educated - or, what if public education hadn't existed)
Trying to bring humor to a serious discussion about Education?
In case you hadn't noticed- it's a BIG and GROWING problem.
But, I can see you wanting to lighten the discussion. However, that diminishes the subject, because the subject is not funny.
Just a thought.
- I'm sorry, but who do you think supports the Church?? Isn't it more fair to tax all citizens and provide the education to all children rather than only those who attend that particular church?
- Doodlebirdposted 13 years ago0
People are generally chosen for leadership because of their use of "good judgement" in ever-changing situations
Presidents are voted into office by POPULARITY & whoever has a more engaging SMEAR CAMPAIGN.Okay, you're talking about a personal situation. I'm talking about a larger arena. Personal, maybe....I've seen too many times where the loudmouth obnoxious manipulator was accepted as the leader rather than the one who actually understood the consequences of decisions made. I've noticed this in larger arenas too.
- Chasukposted 13 years ago0
lol You're funny!
Okay, in the past education wasn't considered a right and most likely was not even considered a privilege by those who received it (much like students today who don't enjoy learning) But does that change the fact that today a publicly funded education is a right? No. The only thing that changed is the attitude of society regarding education.
I get your point but you missed mine. (re: Marginal Utility) My not knowing what it means tells me it doesn't have anything to do with Public Education. I could be wrong. I am only asking you to give me a reason to look into it other than because you told me to.
As for education being a right even though it has to be given or taught, I refer you to the Declaration of Independence and the birth of the USA. An entire nation was born upon the concepts of certain God-Given inalienable rights. The right to the freedom of speech had to be given to the people. The right to bear arms was given to the people. These rights were given after a change of attitudes within the society that became the US.
How many children do you know who demand an education? I believe the parents might, but children? Be serious, okay? Nobody is forced to be a teacher in the public school system and I don't believe anyone is forced to be a teacher anywhere else in the US either.
-----If education is a right, it doesn't matter how it comes about.------
That is exactly my point!! It's all about choices and being able to choose for your own family / children.
(maybe you're misunderstanding me? I can't agree with home-schooling being the best and only option. Give me choices!!)
Actually, public schools can vary within the same city.
(ex: my daughter went to more than 1 high school. Due to moving she didn't have enough credits to be a senior and was placed back in with the juniors & would have had to complete a 5th year of high school had she not dropped out)
Public schools were organized according to what 'experts' felt the majority of children 'should' know by certain ages. A little behind or a little ahead - the students help each other (one way or another - similar to the ideas of global Interdependence rather than strictly independent countries) (ex: my son was the 'classroom tutor' throughout elementary school - helping others with their math after he finished his)
Special Education students receive what is called an IEP. (Individualized Education Program) I personally would like to see something like this for all students as I don't believe all students should have to suffer through all 'enlightenment opportunities' (meaning sports, music, art, etc. - after a certain age, unless interested or has the talent)
ps - glad your son finally took to reading. He must have found something he really enjoyed!----But, like I said, I don't see this degree of change happening in the schools----
I don't know...revolutions can happen pretty quickly if there's enough stamina. And I'd say the stamina has been building for a while now.
Maybe this recession will do us some good in this area? lol With less money to spend on the latest technology maybe someone will get the idea to make other societal improvements...It definitely will. You likely will not have any money at all neither for public education nor public health nor wars.
- Baileybearposted 13 years ago0
- Doodlebirdposted 13 years ago0
Me thinks a lot of us should be writing some hubs about all of this.
- Baileybearposted 13 years ago0
Hey everybody... I guess I've missed out on some of the action on here... When I posted this topic, I didn't realize that it would spark so many conversations. I'm glad I did though, and it's been interesting to read everyone's opinions, even though I have cause to disagree with some. Obviously, the education of children is something that we are all passionate about, and that is a good thing. So, I just wanted to say thanks and hi and I'm not dead, just been busy
ROTF!
What?? 
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