Atheists and agnostics, what will you do What WILL you do?
Lets hope no one is depending on you also. No doubt you would murder your offspring rather than have them be "cowardly" and not die for your principals.
Well said.
How many Christians have converted rather than be burned at the stake? I wonder....... Thanks for reminding us how disgusting religion is.
Well done.Sorry - did you not understand?
Thanks for reminding us how scary and offensive religions are.Not sure I would be daft enough to do that. I would probably do what you are doing - hide my identity or go online and pretend to be bravely defending against a perceived threat, while actually stirring up hatred and ill will like a good Christian should. I would continue to pay my taxes and use the hired killers my government employs to do the dirty work. My, how very brave you are.
Of course I could always shoot them myself - that seems to be the best way to spread an ideology according to you - right? That is how Christianity was spread after all.
Islam = Christianity of 200 years ago. Hopefully we will pull their teeth the same as we pulled yours.
If only you were right.
I see examples such as this that has me worried.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/05/24 … t-convert/
Maybe it's just me.
Sensible and well-balanced reply. Let's see more like this.
My "point" was, though he answered the question, (as you rightly point out), my argument was, why make so much "noise" arguing against religion in these forums, and then jus capitulate by pretending to convert?
Sure, go ahead and (pretend) convert, but, in the same stroke of the proverbial pen, you betray your own worldview. IE, it's not worth dying for.
This ought to illustrate what I mean, if you are truly agains religion.
....while the second mouse escapes the hawk who has a (mouse) mouthful!
A Good day to you, DJ. I hope you are enjoying this weekend. Here is the States, as you know, it is the unofficial start of summer and I look forward to a fire in the barbie on Monday.
I find it interesting that the global growth rate of Islam in the next fifteen years or so is expected to be lower than the past two decades. Naturally, as Muslims migrate to and become citizens of various nations, they will participate more and more in the affairs of their new home countries just as you did, I imagine, in Australia. That is one reason why I am rather surprised to see the OP statement characterize such normal assimilation as “pushing their agenda” or “using the freedom (and laws) in those countries to gain more and more control.” It certainly makes me wonder. If you participate in Australian elections, I doubt that you look upon your right to vote as “pushing your agenda.” Rather, you are just exercising your freedom as well as “more and more control” over your own destiny according to the law. Surely, you can not be suggesting that Muslims should not yearn for the same freedoms you have enjoyed since you arrived. Perhaps I presume too much.
About 60% of the world’s Muslims are concentrated in the nearby Asia-Pacific region, yet in Australia, less than two percent of the population is Muslim and that ratio is not expected to be more than 2.8% by 2030. {1}
In addition, I do not see the Muslim “takeover” in the UK that you speak of. The Muslim population in the UK in 2030 is projected to reach about 5.6 million or about 8.2 % of the total population. That certainly is not a “takeover” to me. {2}
The OP statement grows even more alarming with the claim, “It will be, ‘convert (to Islam) or die’! Or, if you are lucky, pay ‘protection money.’” Such an absurd notion is not even remotely possible but it is a handy device for anyone who is Islamophobic and wishes to sow seeds of fear and distrust instead of a making a Christlike gesture of love and acceptance to our fellow man.
I know that a lot of people have their own reasons for exaggerating their fears of Islam but I notice not one has been shared with us here in this thread.
Enjoy your weekend, DJ, and the onset of winter. I intend to make the best of my summer months while I can.
{1} http://www.pewforum.org/2011/01/27/the- … opulation/
{2} http://www.pewforum.org/2011/01/27/tabl … y-country/Hi Quill.
You are entering summer, but we still have exited ours. We should be huddled around heaters, but we are in all but shorts and t-shirts (still). As I said to my wife last week, "if this is global warming, I want more of it".
Another story that illustrates my OP below. I know it might sound a bit far fetched, but I think it's prudent to expect the worst, and be prepared than to sleep in apathy, and be taken by surprise.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/ … 4Gvl62SxtM
Have a beer on me at your barbie!
Hello again, DJ.
Thanks for the link to IsraelNationalNews.Com. It is informative and just like you said “a bit far fetched.”
I do not buy into such fanaticism. First, I look carefully at who is talking. Abu Waleed is not the voice of Islam any more than the Westboro Baptist Church speaks for Christianity. The article is correct in criticizing this divisive message and not all of Islam. Mr. Waleed is an Islamic cult personality whose lectures are refuted by Islamic scholars.
“Who is Abu Waleed? Abu Waleed is someone who is majhool, does not possess Islamic credentials, is not authorized to transmit religious knowledge…May Allah protect Muslims from this man and his likes.” {1}
Looking at the first sentence of the second paragraph of your link, this extremist “cited sources in the hadith (Islamic teachings outside of the Koran).” He is not even quoting from the work of Mohammed. The Qur'an that that guides millions of reasonable Muslims teaches respect for peaceful non-believers and does not condone bullying and humiliation as a tactics to convert Christians and Jews to their religion. I find the entire notion absurd. Being prepared for the worst, as you say, should not include having an exaggerated fear of all Muslims but an understanding that individual extremists like Mr. Waleed exist in the world. In the same fashion, Boko Haram does not represent the Islamic faith no more than the cruelty of Christopher Columbus represented all Italian or Spanish Catholics.
Well, DJ, I am off to prepare for tomorrow. I will definitely tip a few in your honour.
{1}
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3kYYSWoFrA#t=23Bad example, Z. Denim IS cotton.
Yes, and it affects you too.
You either have grace, or you have law.
I live under grace, you, under law. That's why you quote it.
I suppose a call to repentance will be promptly rejected by you!
[Bold font added for emphasis.]
Hi there, DJ. I hope you had a marvelous weekend too.
I guess the one thing that disturbs me the most is the obvious double standard that destroys the premise in your last post. I am scratching my hairless dome wondering how an informed person, especially a Christian, can, in good faith, criticize Islam because the Qu’ran contains violence. The Bible, as we all know, is also filled with verses containing violent directives and images.
Scary stuff when you ask why Jesus needs to wield a sword. “Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but with a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man's foes will be those of his own household.” (Matthew 10:34-36)
Dare I say it is a bit lame to express a fear of Islam and, at the same time, ignore the verses in the Bible that also call “for and justifies atrocities in the name of advancement of the religion.”
One of my favorites goes, "Woe to the world for temptation! ...And if your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life maimed or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire." (Matthew 18:8-10)
Clearly there are plenty of gruesome verses from all religions. One only needs to connect the dots to realize the violent, threatening God of Christians and Jews is the same violent, threatening God worshiped by Muslims and the tomes of all three religions contain merciless violence.
Then you wrote:
“It all comes down to the interpreter presenting the teachings. These same radicals are rarely if ever censored, much less removed from office for preaching such (hate).
Ah ha! This is a very good point, DJ. It will be interesting, I believe, to examine the radical claims preaching hate and fear found in the OP statement, specifically, “The UK is a prime example, where political will is weak (at best) to curb the ‘takeover’ [by Islam.]” This claim is false and incendiary. However, I see no evidence of self censorship. The author makes no effort to correct it, to withdraw it, or to attempt to justify it. Rather, it is left to stand as a false statement about a “takeover” that does not exist and the speaker remains silent. How profound are your words, “radicals are rarely if ever censored,” particularly when they are applied to the groundless and false statements in the OP statement of this thread.
While we both may have a lot of enemies, I do not think religion is one of them. It is reasonable to say your “push” will never come to “shove,” your life will never be on the line and you will never be told to "convert (to Islam) or die." Unfortunately, unfounded fear and distrust of Islam is the only durable message contained in this thread. That said, I respect your right to fear Islam no matter how tenuous and weak the reasons.
Best regards, DJ, I have to run. It seems I may have toasted you too often yesterday and I am paying the price today.
How funny.
Guess you are in the Islamist camp on this one? Hi there, DJ. ^5 It is nice to see your thread is still active after eight days.
In spite of your objection, Melissa is correct when she states, “Islam, Christianity and Judaism all come from the same source. It's the same God. It’s not a political thing or a belief thing, it's a history thing.”
The traditions and beliefs of Muslims, Christians, and Jews all lead back to the Biblical Prophet Abraham. All three religions worship the God of Abraham and Abraham worshiped only one God!
Not having a sound intellectual reply is usually the reason for attacking and ridiculing others just because they see life from a different angle. In a discussion among adults, it should not be necessary to use inane personal attacks. Particularly, one devoid of logic, reason, and critical thinking such as this:
“I see you are either ignorant of the differences, or you have fallen for the maedia [sic] hype/propaganda.
Either way, you have negated the claim (if you ever made it, like most atheists here) of reason and critical thinking!
Believing that anyone who disagrees with me is ignorant may give me a false sense of superiority but it is actually a rather ignorant belief.
Melissa’s statement is widely accepted by historians and biblical scholars including Miroslav Volf, professor of theology at Yale Divinity School. In an interview published in Christianity Today he said,
“If somebody postulates the existence of more than one god, I would have to say we don't worship the same god. If somebody says that God is basically one with the world, I would also have to say we don't worship the same god. What binds Muslims and Christians, and what is central to my argument, is that God is one, that God is distinct from the world, and that the one God has created everything that is not God. There is a radical divide between creature and creator. This is a fundamental monotheistic belief. Muslims, Christians, and Jews share that belief. Therefore, they believe in the same God.” {1}
It is sad to see this thread deteriorate from attacking Muslims to attacking anyone who disagrees with the OP’s fears and beliefs. I would rather see the OP elevate the thread to a reasonable exchange of ideas between adults.
I am wondering, DJ, if it can be done.
{1} http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/201 … paging=off
- Emile Rposted 11 years ago
0Hi there, Ms. Emile R.,
Over half of French citizens are NOT Muslim. Your source intentionally misled you. In 2010, Muslims comprised only 7.5% of the population of France. Projections by the Pew Research Center put this ratio at about 10.3% in 2030. {1}
In the next fifteen years, the Muslim population in all of Europe is NOT expected to exceed 8%. .
I honestly do not see where this is scary. Most Muslims are loving, caring, and family-centric people. The only problem I see is that their food is too spicy.
{1} http://www.pewforum.org/2011/01/27/tabl … -country/#Hello, Oztinato. Welcome to the discussion, Thank you so much for directing your comment to me.
Atheists, more so than those with strong religious beliefs, tend to rely on facts when reaching conclusion. To be honest with you, comparing atheists to terrorists does not sound like a position based on any facts at all.
Nor are atheists known to support legalizing bestiality so this too seems void of any factual understanding of reality.
Thanks for commenting, Oztinato.
Tell us how terrible Islam has been to YOU today aka.
Odd that you hate the Islamists so much in that case. Why is that? Because their religion might be correct and they say you are burning in hell for following a false religion?
You are such a legend in your own mind!
Don't you tire of copy & pasting the same ole same ole?
I guess not, it's all you got.
Still in fact I'm just about ROFL.Don't see an answer to my question, but I seem to have hit a nerve. This is why you hate them? Because you fear their version of The Nonsense may be the correct one and you will be burning in hell for choosing the wrong version? How scary for you.
A sermon in lieu of an answer.
She made a very logical argument. Perhaps you should try addressing the facts and logical conclusion instead of rhetoric designed to inflame. Little wonder your religion causes so many conflicts.
Hello, Oz. It is nice to see your most recent posts. However, they lead me to make a simple request.
It was certainly appropriate for Johnny to ask, “who is killing children.” Within the realm of intelligent adult discussions, it is customary for the person making claims to cite sources when requested, particularly when the claims are not widely accepted by the audience. A response like “read the newspapers” not only violates discussion etiquette but implies the claim lacks a credible source.
Therefore, for my benefit, please indicate a valid source that reveals putting unwanted infants into washing machines is a factual “fad” among atheists. Without such a source, there is no reason for me or anyone else to believe it is true.
I thank you, Mr. Oztinato, for your input. I am looking forward to learning more from you on this topic.
Just responding to another preacher huh?
At what point does an ordinary troll become a stalker?Never heard of him myself. Guess you are easily astounded huh? Most believers seem to be.
1) Do you really think it would be that simple? You'd have to adapt to their way of life. You think there would be no follow up? Just "say yes and we'll get out of your hair"? You would be expected to follow a Muslims way of life. It's not like America where when you get away from the bad guy, you run to the nearest police station and your life is restored.
2) I just remembered this was a thread for Atheists so I will not continue on my with my points... sorry for intruding.
Seems rather insignificant, actually. But, it certainly does reflect quite brilliantly on the myriad of philosophical worldviews people wish to follow. But, that's what has happened over the centuries, people have followed various worldviews, all 'snapshots' of the way they lived back then. There were more primitive religions and gods whom were widely worshiped with devout loyalty long before the creation of Yeshua.
I'm sure those folks found their ways to their perdition, as well.
Why would that even be a concern? It matters not. What matters is that you believe in your philosophy and what is held as truth within it, you hold. What other people choose to follow and hold as truth is their concern, not ours.
You see, they aren't really rejecting a relationship with Yeshua, they are embracing a relationship with their god as you are with yours. All would be good with the world if we simply kept it that way and not demand people share our truths when they already have their own. That's what causes fights and division, the very thing those world philosophies are supposed to deter.
And, they are perfectly free not to understand your God's concepts, in the same way you are free not to understand their God's concepts. Seems fair.
Those could very easily be seen as fighting words considering you are now invoking a clause of superiority, in that it is superior to believe in your God and inferior to believe in others. Their God is nor your enemy and they are not losing to an enemy, they are gaining from their own gods as you are from yours.
Their gods seek similar relationships. If however, you wish to "extend His Kingdom", then be prepared for a fight, because what you are considering would be looked upon as an invasion of their philosophical worldview and they would see you as a conqueror, not a friend.
Why not instead, just work together with them in "feeding the hungry, healing the sick, setting the captives free and releasing the bonded" and not worry about whose god is superior. Wouldn't that be better for everyone?
That should be no problem for you at all, it does not affect in the least. Why worry about it, you're going to His Kingdom, aren't you? No worries, then.
This is hilarious given the OP of this thread.
I suggest doing some reading on how these irrational beliefs were and still are being spread by violence and coercion.
Love the "McDonalds Argument" though. Lots of people eat it therefore it is good.
Yeah! Jesus taught His disciples to behead unbelievers!
The foolish ignorance of some is astounding, but, hey, what else is new around here!As opposed to atheists, who can't help but be true, right?
No need to answer, I got it.
Maybe you ought to publish a hub or two! I'd like to read it/them.
There is no extrapolation, christians claim the jewish god as the same as their own.
Haven't you report almost every comment by an atheist in this thread?
"Calm Zombie" reporting here. Can someone please provide me with some hot air, so I can remain alive for the duration of this discussion?
For once JM I totally agree with you, several times I have tried to unsubscribe from this thread, it appears impossible to escape it's repetitive nonsense, and I have never seen such banality in a forum post as seen in this.
He has a point to make, far better he attempted to make it in a few Hubs than to continue to beat his head against the solid wall of indifference he meets here.
It's well known I am no supporter of atheism, but I do commend you guys for having the perseverance to keep batting the ball back across the table.
Don't any of you have lives to lead?I have put out an olive branch but that was trodden under foot. I have retracted an accusation of Trolling, without any replies forthcoming. There was the impression that we have been dealing with someone who is frightfully lonely, but that is apparently a false impression. If I were a professional in one of the counseling professions, maybe the problem would be more obvious.... but I cannot see it.
Over to you, Oztinato....do you wish to redeem yourself? Or is this a total waste of time?
ATTENTION
I have overcome my flu and need to attend to a large professional freelance work load tomorrow. Please organise your insults and attacks and take a number.
My only error in this debate is having compassion on hubbers who make personal attacks. Compassionate theists are often seen as targets but I enjoy the pace.
I will be online for hours yet so feel free to cut loose)
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