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Why do Christians think everyone else is wrong?

  1. kittythedreamer profile image96
    kittythedreamerposted 5 years ago

    Why is it that Christians believe that Buddhists, Hindus, Pagans, Native Americans, etc. are all wrong in their beliefs and that they'll all go somewhere horrible when they die? Why can't we just accept that other people have different lives and different experiences, and let them believe how they want, as long as they're seeking god in some form?

    1. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      That is the mission of Christians, to spread the Gospels, to accept Jesus.

      But, you'll quickly notice that they themselves will tell each other they're wrong in their beliefs.

      Grab the popcorn.

      1. kittythedreamer profile image96
        kittythedreamerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I've always found that to be the funniest. Some Pentecostals will say (and I've heard this with my own ears many times) that Catholics will go to Hell or that even Baptists will go to Hell, and Baptists are the closest to Pentecostals as far as the Protestant faiths go! Craziness...

    2. kess profile image61
      kessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      The ignorant will always pretend to be knowledge, thus they deceive themselves continually.....
      Plus all they can see in others is themselves......which is Ignorance..thus the war continues.

      1. kittythedreamer profile image96
        kittythedreamerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Great point, Kess. Thanks for sharing and being open minded.

      2. Jerami profile image79
        Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Good to see YA again!
        Been missing your wise words.

    3. MelissaBarrett profile image60
      MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I don't think that.  I am Christian.  Therefore all Christians don't think that.  You are accidentally doing the same thing that the ones you are questioning do. smile

      But to answer the question assuming there was a "some" in there, because they have read the bible and interpreted as such.  Or, more likely, they have had someone tell them that that's what the verses mean.

      1. kittythedreamer profile image96
        kittythedreamerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Okay, excuse me I did in fact generalize a bit. Let me re-phrase my question, "Why do many Christians believe that they are right and everyone else is wrong?" You are one of the few who do not...my mom is one like you, but every other Christian I've met in life believes that everyone else is wrong and they are right.

        1. Bibowen profile image89
          Bibowenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          How strongly do you hold to the view that some Christians think they're right and everyone else is wrong? I suppose if you think you're right, then everyone else is wrong, aren't they?

          Didn't you see this coming before you said it?

          1. autumn18 profile image68
            autumn18posted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I can't speak for Kitty of course but I don't think I read that she thought she was right. When it comes to matters of spirituality there are hundreds of differing views and many within Christianity itself. A lot of people have their beliefs and ideas but have an open mind and don't find it necessary to tell others they are wrong. I don't claim that my way is right and anything else is wrong. I don't think Kitty was implying that either. All of what I've heard about Christianity and from Christians though seems to be consistent that they believe (claim they know) that they are right.

            1. teamrn profile image79
              teamrnposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I'd imagine that every faith has what I call, it's share of Chr-eastors, people who practice their faith on Christmas and Easter, or a combination of 'religious holidays.' Also, I know of people who attend church every week; but you'd never know by their actions!

            2. Bibowen profile image89
              Bibowenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Autumn, is your view that "people who are certain they are right are not open-minded but those that are not certain are open-minded" just an opinion or are you certain about that? If you are certain, then you are not open-minded, by your own definition. You are right and you know it. If you are not certain, and it's just an opinion of yours that people who are certain they are right are not open-minded, then you and Kitty should soften your tone because it sounds accusatory and not charitable. You sound as if you know that Christians are wrong for holding such views. You should be willing to take either side on the matter.

              1. autumn18 profile image68
                autumn18posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Hi Bibowen. It's my opinion that people who close off other points and ideas and claim their way is the only right way, are right are not open-minded. I'm not a black and white person so I don't like to claim I am certain of anything.



                I'm sorry I sound like that is what I'm saying. On the contrary, I think religion/spirituality is something that can't be known and is not right or wrong. So I'll re word it and say that anyone saying that someones else's religion or way of thinking spiritually is wrong, is not cool.

                1. Bibowen profile image89
                  Bibowenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  I've heard this view before (actually several times). It strikes me as a claim that, in matters of spirituality, it's a morally superior position to claim not to know something than to claim to know something. My hangup with this is that yours is equally a claim to knowledge: it's a claim that we cannot know. As I see it, you're criticizing (I'm sure you're doing it kindly) the fundamentalist who claims that Jesus is the only way to God. He's obviously narrow-minded in your view because he's making this absolutist claim that he couldn't possibly know whether or not it's true. But yours is equally a claim to know something. And I don't see how your claim is superior to his.

                  But I have more of a problem with your view than with his because you're criticizing him because you claim that he can't know, a claim that you are making because you think you're right. I know you would like to think you're more open-minded, but I don't see how. Your approach allows you to label him as "narrow-minded" while you appear to be "open-minded" without having to present an argument to defend your position.

                  A more honest and open approach is to make clear your position. Your position is that, when it comes to spiritual matters, it's not possible to know the truth. As someone that holds that position, what's your evidence for such a view?

                  1. autumn18 profile image68
                    autumn18posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    That's understandable. Perhaps I am criticizing that fundamentalist by saying he/she is narrow minded. When it comes to being told I'm wrong, a bad person, lost, sad, etc. I form a certain opinion.



                    True. Most people think their opinions are right. Is it possible I'm wrong and/or a hypocrite? Sure.



                    I would like to think I'm open minded but I know I can falter. I don't want the perception to be that I find all Christians narrow minded. I certainly do not think that. So I can either change my position or admit that I am not as open minded as I'd like to be. My opinion that spirituality can't be a known truth comes from the fact that no one seems to agree on it. This group thinks they are right, that group thinks they are, and so on and so on. If a truth is there then we should all know it right? I'm sure that doesn't qualify as "evidence" but it's how I came to that idea.

    4. AEvans profile image70
      AEvansposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Why is it that Christians believe that Buddhists, Hindus, Pagans, Native Americans, etc. are all wrong in their beliefs and that they'll all go somewhere horrible when they die? Why can't we just accept that other people have different lives and different experiences, and let them believe how they want, as long as they're seeking god in some form?


      I do not believe any of that mumbo-jumbo and believe all people are entitled to there own beliefs. I have friends who are buddhist, muslim, etc. I accept all of them for who they are. So not all Christians judge others for what they believe. I am one of them. smile

    5. IntimatEvolution profile image82
      IntimatEvolutionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      We Christians don't all think like this.  Maybe you should narrow your stereotyping to the evangelists at least.

      1. kittythedreamer profile image96
        kittythedreamerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        That's why I rephrased to "many" christians. Thanks!

    6. livelonger profile image89
      livelongerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Most proselytizing religions use a "carrot and stick" approach to winning new converts. In Christianity, they are, respectively, heaven and hell. You are rewarded with the former by declaring that you believe Christ is your savior.

      However, as many more "evolved" Christians will tell you, they don't believe that. They believe you can be a good person without being a Christian.

      I remember a rabbi saying that you could imagine heaven (or enlightenment, or whatever) metaphorically as the peak of a giant mountain that covers most of the planet, the base of which spreads across various climates around the world. At the base of the mountain, people are dressed very differently, to adapt to very different conditions. As people work their way up the mountain, the climates are more similar, and people dress more and more alike. By the time you reach the top, it doesn't matter what you were wearing when you were at the base.

      1. kittythedreamer profile image96
        kittythedreamerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        How insightful and beautiful. Thanks livelonger!

    7. aka-dj profile image79
      aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Maybe it's a bit like all the Atheists telling Christians they are all wrong. hmm

      It's all about what one believes. big_smile


      Everyone has the "truth" cornered!   cool

      1. 61
        Korky10posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Everyone can think what they want......the truth is still there. That should concern you. So do some thinking for yourself and find that the bible is the most accurate historical writing we have. Over 40 authors wrote the bible over several hundred years with total agreement. 9 of the 10 disciples of Jesus were killed for there belief. Why would so many be willing to die for a lie?  How could these writers plan all this.

        1. Jesus was a hippy profile image62
          Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          There was never a global flood, donkeys cant talk, and men cannot live inside fih for 3 days



          Thats why deuteronomy tells you to kill people and exodus tells you not to kill people.



          People die for their beliefs all the time. That doesnt mean all those beliefs are true. What a ridiculous argument that is.

          1. 61
            Korky10posted 5 years ago in reply to this

            You would have a point, but you can not actually verify your point.  You see the bible is the only book that has stood the Test of time and has never been proven wrong. In fact many bible prophesies have been fulfilled and others are going to be. Actuallyyou might want to consider what you said again.  If the bible is only a book some one made up why would they be willing to die for a lie.  Show me any evidence more compelling than the bible

            1. Jesus was a hippy profile image62
              Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              It has been proven wrong and I told you already what parts of it are wrong.

              I also explained that lots of people die for what they believe in and that does not make their belief true.

              I see you are deliberately ignoring reason and simply repeating yourself.

              Repetition does not make something true either by the way.

              1. 61
                Korky10posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                How has it been proven wrong. Are you the authority?  You told me what parts are wrong?  Are you God?  No one dies for something they made up ! And to find others to die for the same lie?  Get real. Whose authority or where is there any authority that can discredit the bible?  If your asking me,  the bible is it's own authority. If not show me reason, not your opinion

                1. Jesus was a hippy profile image62
                  Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  1.There was never a global flood
                  2.No. Should I be?
                  3.Yes I did. I just did it again
                  4.No. I dont believe there is such a thing
                  5.I never said that they did. I dont understand the purpose of your strawman.
                  6.Joseph smith did pretty well on that front
                  7.Like irony do you?
                  8.Why does it need to come from an authority? There was never a global flood. FACT
                  9.Im not.
                  10.I never showed you my opinion. If you want, my opinion is that the book is a childrens fairytale and any adult who still believes in it is a retarded moron. Everything else I have said is just plain fact.

                  1. 61
                    Korky10posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Okay. A bunch of I's. The book of Mormon was made up by one man. Joseph smith did not die and raise himself up. Is that a God worth following?   If my eternity is at stake or yours?  Are you going to rely on another man?  Forever is a very Long time and we will die.  The bible was written over hundreds of years by some 40 authors.all agreeing.   Countless of phophisies fulfilled. No other religion's god has ever died and raised himself up from the dead. We have many scientific evidence of Jesus having been on this earth. And I want to agree with your I'?

          2. 0
            Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            _________________

            The Old Testament speaks in Metaphors

            1. aka-dj profile image79
              aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              That's too simplistic.
              The ten commandments are certainly not metaphors.
              Book of Leviticus, and Exodus are not metaphors.

              1. 0
                Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                ____________________

                The Ten Commandments are not Metaphors, I agree. I also did not say all of the OT was Metaphors. But there are lots. The two books you mentioned also have metaphors.

                The Metaphors are not simplistic and many don't even understand when they have read something that refers to something else.

        2. aka-dj profile image79
          aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Thanks for your advice!

          Maybe you ought now to read my profile, and find out who I am. smile

          1. 61
            Korky10posted 5 years ago in reply to this

            God bless you. Jesus Christ has nothing to do with religion. By the way I have a friend in Australia   I am from Canada!

    8. Greek One profile image79
      Greek Oneposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Simple...

      because everyone else is wrong

    9. MickeySr profile image87
      MickeySrposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      kittythedreamer,

      You ask "Why do many Christians believe that they are right and everyone else is wrong?" - if Christians are Christians because they follow Christ, if they are Christ-ians, then, there is your answer. Many folks like to hold Christianity in disdain but assert they're fine with Jesus, they hate the exclusivism of Christianity but advance Jesus as loving everyone, etc - but it was Jesus who taught that He is the only way to God, that all others are liars, that no one comes to the Father except through Him, etc.

      Christianity is not a chauvinistic, cultural-based, religion that is saying 'my religion is better than your religion', Christianity is saying 'here is the way God has prepared' . . . Jews are welcomed and called to Jesus, Muslims are welcomed and called to Jesus, Hindus, Buddhists, etc, etc. Christianity doesn't assert that it is right and Muslims are wrong, or that it is right and Hindus are wrong, etc - Christianity asserts that all the ideas men have come-up with are wrong, that God has revealed Himself and revealed His truth and that that alone is the real, right, truth.

      I understand it still seems to come to the same end to many, but I think you are looking at it culturally and Christianity is looking at it eternally . . . it's not about what seems fair or friendly, it's not about every culture getting due respect, it's not about God taking our best effort and being satisfied with our sincerity, etc - it's about the real, actual, eternal truth, and Christianity, authentic Christianity,  is not a religion at all it is merely a recounting of the historic record, it is a pointing to an event that happened 2,000 years ago, it is abandoning all the religious ideas of men and recognizing God's revelation of Himself and His truth.

      MickeySr

      1. 0
        Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        ____________________

        I think you misunderstand the phrase "through Yahshua"

        1. MickeySr profile image87
          MickeySrposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          How so?

        2. MickeySr profile image87
          MickeySrposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          What am I misunderstanding?

    10. 67
      paarsurreyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      One should be tolerant enough to appreciate others also; but there is no harm if one gives reasons and arguments for one believes truthful; one should be open minded.

    11. Jerami profile image79
      Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      the reason christians are doing that is the same reason that everyone else is doing it!

         Cause everyone else is doing the same thing, and we are all doing it if we wanted to be honest with ourselves. We would admit that!


         Everybody is keeping up with what we think the Jonses is doing.

         Problem is; ....   we are wrong ...   cause the Jonse's ain't doing what we think they are "A" doin!    OOPS!   we need to re think it!.  ...  "IF" we are trying to keep up with somebody else??????   We ain't doing it right.


        Edit     ... OOPS   ....   how did I get on this thread ??

    12. 61
      Mohammad Wasimposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Why the religions are considered as a trouble maker in this beautiful World ?

      The founder of every religions convinced and try to identify himself  as a  true massanger of God. Unfortunately God is invisible and I do not know, why God hesitate to appear or scare to talk with us. Due to that invisibility , every religion do get chance to continue his doctrine to deceive us as much as they can. It's a wonder that every religion claim that heaven is for them.
          Every believer of every religion will go to heaven. Please , believe me and
      create no conflict, hate, war any more. Do continue your believe and let to do other to do the same. Escalate love and love can only deflating.

    13. thirdmillenium profile image71
      thirdmilleniumposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Simple. Because they are wrong

  2. knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 5 years ago

    It is Christians, Muslims and think Jews also I think, all coming out of the same place. They are all monotheistic. Having but one god, you get to exploit in all manner of ways, those that have some other.

    1. amanley profile image59
      amanleyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Maybe it is because of the unknown. The religions you list above aren't as strictly structured like Christianity, Islam and Catholicism. Here they pray, go to church or the mosque on certain days. Do their duties to the church and try to bring others to the religion. You don't see Pagans, Buddhists, Hindus, or Native Americans on college campuses handing out the bible like I've seen several different Christian churches do. Having faith isn't found through recruitment.

      1. kittythedreamer profile image96
        kittythedreamerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Very true, but that is because these other folks who don't proselytize don't feel that they need to force their beliefs on others...they feel in many cases that if people find their way to those paths that it is even more worthwhile and enlightening. Thanks, amanley!

    2. livelonger profile image89
      livelongerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Nope. Jews don't. Judaism explicitly states that Judaism works for Jews, but is not for everyone, and that all the world's righteous share a place in the World to Come.

      1. 0
        Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        ________________________
        That's correct

    3. 0
      Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      ___________________

      You are wrong about the Jewish people, as we don't care how you worship.

      We also discourage people converting.

      And we do not think we are the only ones of God.


      ''''

      A lot of Christians believe in God as a trinity

      1. Ann Marie Dwyer profile image79
        Ann Marie Dwyerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Despite the lack of the "Holy Trinity" being mentioned anywhere in their bible.

        1. 0
          Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          ______

          Yes, I agree. There is no Trinity

          1. 61
            Korky10posted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Actually there is. Read your bible

            1. 0
              Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              _____

              No there isn't.

              I know the scriptures in Hebrew, Greek, and English

              1. 61
                Korky10posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                 The Trinity.  When your done I can give you more to read.

                Isaiah 48:16 "Come near to Me, listen to this: from the first I have not spoken in secret, from the time it took place, I was there, and now Adonai-Yehovah has sent Me and His Spirit." [Indication of the Son and the Holy Spirit being a person & the Trinity] (John 18:20, Jesus said this referred to Him; John 13:19, 14:29)

                Matthew 3:16-17 "And after being baptized, Jesus went up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon Him, and behold, a voice out of the heavens, saying, ‘This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.’" (Luke 3:21-22)

                Matthew 28:18-20 "And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, ‘All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you, and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.’"

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                Luke 3:21-22 "Now it came about when all the people were baptized, that Jesus also was baptized, and while He was praying, heaven was opened, and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, ‘You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased.’" (Matt 3:16-17, Isaiah 48:16)

                John 1:32-34 "And John gave testimony saying, ‘I beheld the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven and He remained upon Him. And I did not know Him, but the one who sent me to baptize in water, that One said to me, ‘On whom you see the Spirit coming down upon and remaining, this is the one baptizing in the Holy Spirit.’ And I have seen, and witnessed that this is the Son of God."

                John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you."

                John 15:26 "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness of Me."

                John 16:13-15 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He shall glorify Me; for He shall take of Mine, and shall disclose it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said, that He takes of Mine, and will disclose it to you."

                1 Corinthians 12:4-6 "Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons."

                Galatians 4:6 "And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

                Ephesians 2:18 "For through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father."

                Ephesians 4:4-6 "There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all."

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                Ephesians 5:18-20 "And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit, speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord; always giving thanks for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God, even the Father."

                1 Peter 1:2 "According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in fullest measure."

                1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one."

                Jude 20-21 "But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith; praying in the Holy Spirit; keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life."

                Hebrews 1:8 "But of the Son He says, ‘Your throne, O God [Elohim, !yhiloa>], is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of Your kingdom.’"

                Psalm 45:6 "Your throne, O Elohim, is forever and ever, a scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom." (Jesus is Elohim)

                2 Timothy 1:2  "Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord."  (The Father is God)

                Philippians 2:10-11 "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is aAdonai, to the glory of God the Father." (From Isaiah 45:21-23. Jesus is Yehovah)

                Isaiah 45:21-23 "Declare and set forth your case; indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, Yehovah? And there is no other Elohim besides Me, a righteous El and a Savior; there is none except Me. Turn to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am El, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself, the word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness and will not turn back, that to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance." (Phil 2:10-11, Jesus is Yehovah)

                John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God [qeo;" h\\n oJ logo"]. And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us." (Jesus is God)

                John 1:18  "No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten God, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him."  (This means that the appearances of Yehovah God in the O.T. are not the Father, but Jesus-Yehovah, Genesis 18:1, because no one has ever seen the Father)

                Genesis 18:1 "Now Yehovah appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day."  (Jesus appeared to him, John 1:18)

                Acts 5:3-4 "But Peter said, ‘Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back some of the price of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men, but to God.’" (The Holy Spirit is God)

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                Isaiah 40:13-18 "Who has directed [Spirit-Yehovah, hw:hy]Aj'Wr] Ruach- Yehovah, Or as His counselor has informed Him? With whom did He consult and who gave Him understanding? And who taught Him in the path of justice and taught Him knowledge, and informed Him of the way of understanding?. . . . To whom then will you liken El? Or what likeness will you compare with Him?" (The Holy Spirit is Yehovah)

                Isaiah 64:8 "But now, Yehovah, You are our-Father, we are the clay, and You our potter; and all of us are the work of Your-hand." (The Father is Yehovah)

                John 1:1-3 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. This One was in the beginning with God. All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." (Jesus is God in the flesh)

                Colossians 1:15-18 "And He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created by Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the first-born from the dead; so that He Himself might come to have first place in everything." (Jesus is Yehovah-Creator)

                Hebrews 1:3 "And He is the reflected-brightness of His glory and the exact-image of His essence, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high." (Jesus is God)

                Job 33:4 "Ruach-Elohim has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life." (The Holy Spirit is Elohim)

                Job 26:13 ""By His Spirit [j’Wr] the heavens are made-brightly-beautiful [hr;p]vi]; His hand has pierced the fleeing serpent." (The Holy Spirit is Creator-Yehovah)

                1 Thessalonians 1:10 "and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come." (The Father raises from the dead)

                John 6:44 "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." (Jesus raises from the dead)

                John 11:25-26 "I am the Resurrection and the Life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die." (Jesus raises from the dead)

                Romans 8:11 "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you." (The Holy Spirit raises from the dead)

                1 Kings 8:27 "But will Elohim indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain You, how much less this house which I have built!" (The Father is everywhere)

                Matthew 28:20 "Lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." (Jesus is everywhere)

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                Psalm 139:7 "Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence?" (The Holy Spirit is everywhere)

                2 Corinthians 6:16 "Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I will dwell in them and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." (The Father dwells in us)

                Ephesians 4:6 "One God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all."

                1 John 2:23 "Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also."

                2 John 1:9 "Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son." (Jesus dwells in us)

                Revelation 3:20 "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if any one hears My voice and opens the door, I will come into him, and will dine with him, and he with Me."

                Colossians 1:27 "To whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."

                2 Corinthians 13:5 "Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?"

                John 14:17 "That is the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you, and will be in you." (The Holy Spirit indwells us)

                1 Corinthians 6:19 "Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?"

                1 John 3:20 "God is greater than our heart, and knows all things." (The Father knows all things)

                John 16:30 "Now we know that You know all things." (Jesus knows all things)

                1 Corinthians 2:10-11 "For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man, which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God." (The Holy Spirit knows all things)

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                  Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  ______
                  None of those verses mention a Trinity.
                  None of them imply a trinity

                  1. 61
                    Korky10posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Well we know how you read then.   John 14:7. Is spoken to you. I will pray for you so you find Christ

                2. Ann Marie Dwyer profile image79
                  Ann Marie Dwyerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  The only place I saw "trinity" was in your editorials, which was precisely my point. 90% of the bible is subject to interpretation. I have been to churches who profess one interpretation only to cross the street to a sister church (of the same religion) and have a different interpretation touted as the "Word of God".

                  The fault is with the religion. Religion is manufactured by man. In the Bible, nothing is mentioned of membership drives, only "witnessing", which is far different from the wholesale campaign to increase congregation size.

                  You cannot be a witness to what you have neither seen nor experienced.

                  Further evidence of the lack of trinity (beyond the absence of the word) is John 5:26. Should the doctrine be taken at "face value", one would have to get over the ability of one to create the other, numerous scriptures of God proclaiming his singularity and the game of telephone which brought you the book you read.

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                    Korky10posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Please explain the 189 verses and words of Jesus that say he is God and the tree or one.

              2. 61
                Korky10posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Genesis 1:26

                 

                "Let US make man in OUR image": Three plural pronouns, (We, Us, Our) used 6 different times in four different passages: Gen 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isa 6:8. The unanimous opinion of the apostolic Fathers was that the Father was talking to Jesus.

                1. Disappearinghead profile image90
                  Disappearingheadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  The trinity doctrine was not invented in its present form until the 4th century, was unknown to the Apostles, and therefore is an invalid doctrine of men.

                  Deuteronomy 6:4
                  Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

                  Isaiah 45:6
                  ........ from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting people may know there is none besides me. I am the LORD, and there is no other.

                  Isaiah 42:8
                  “I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not yield my glory to another or my praise to idols.

                  Isaiah 9:6
                  For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

                  John 8:58
                  “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

                  John 10:30
                  I and the Father are one.”

                  If God is omnipresent then the Holy Spirit is a term to describe His presence when manifest upon the Earth.

                  If God is omnipresent then Yahshua (aka Jesus) is a term to describe His presence when manifest upon the Earth in the flesh

                  1. 67
                    paarsurreyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    It is truthful that OT Bible like Jesus never believed the Trinity; it is invention of the church, the anti-christ .

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                    Korky10posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    There was evidence at the time of baptism of Jesus when he heard the voice of God and experienced the spirit of God decend on him.  Not the fourth century. Where do people come up with this nonsense. Read the bible. Realize that the trinity is actually three distinct persons manifested as one. As a mire human we do come fully understand this, this is why we trust his word given to us. People always try to discredit his word with stupid human wisdom like "I" know best. Stop using the old "I think it was like this" reasoning .

  3. 0
    Emile Rposted 5 years ago

    The same reason some atheists do. Ego. Alpha types. Things like that.

    1. kittythedreamer profile image96
      kittythedreamerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Very good point with the ego and alpha types...I'll go with that answer. voted UP, Emile! smile

  4. lone77star profile image90
    lone77starposted 5 years ago

    Kitty, I grew up in a Southern Baptist household (on my Mom's side). My Dad, however was into Eastern philosophy and mysticism and then turned to Scientology in the late 50's. In 1962, we moved to D.C. from West Texas so he could study at the main Scientology center there.

    I wasn't interested, myself, until late in my teens (1967 onwards), but found Scientology quite effective spiritually and otherwise. When my Scientology studies interfered with my senior year high school studies, my near straight "A's" dropped to "D's" in English Lit. class, but some spiritual counseling right before mid-terms found me flying high on my studies. Result: I got the only "A."

    After the 1970's (and a few full-blown miracles), I studied Buddhism. Later, I married a Thai Buddhist and studied with Tibetan Buddhists monks in Los Angeles. The marriage didn't last, but my studies in Buddhism continued.

    In the late 90's, I started studying Judaism, Kabbalah and Taoism, learning a great deal of wisdom.

    After 2005, I returned to Christianity. What a difference a few decades make, especially when receiving so much wisdom from other schools of thought.

    I am finding that with my background in electronic engineering, art, computer science and software engineering, the Bible is starting to make sense. And there are some very interesting things hidden within it, especially in Genesis.

    Some people in any religion (perhaps most) are full of ego (the master of this world), and despite their claim to heaven, they likely will never see it.

    Heaven is a state of spirit. Gautama Siddhartha likely got it. Lao Tsu may have, too. Perhaps even Mohammed. I met a couple from Cambodia while I was living in Los Angeles. We became close friends for awhile, and her mother (who lived in Paris) had reached Buddhist Enlightenment, including a host of psychic abilities. Buddhists monks converged on Paris to interview her. They left convinced she had attained full spiritual wakefulness. But who are they to judge, if they had not yet attained it for themselves? Interesting.

    Those who clamor for proof will never see heaven. They are still clinging to the continuity of physical reality -- their "security blanket."

    Me? I'm still working on my "escape."

    1. kittythedreamer profile image96
      kittythedreamerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Of course we all want to reach enlightenment, although I don't think I'm quite there. I have a few more lives (maybe more) to live (just my belief) before I reach total enlightenment or continue on to Heaven or the Summerland or whatever you want to call it. In my heart of hearts, I believe that god is god, no matter by what name or through whatever religion. As long as the person is striving to connect with god and trying to reach enlightenment so to speak, then I feel that god wouldn't turn them down because they called him/her by a different name. I simply can't believe that only one way is right...just never have been able to believe it. Thanks, you are quite intelligent and I respect your opinions wholeheartedly.

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        Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        ___________________________


        According to the New Testament the name does matter.

        Peter said

        Acts 4:12
        Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

        The name is Yah. The one you call Jesus was really Yahshua.
        Which contains God’s name..and he said he came in the Father’s name.

        John 5:43
        I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

        The word hallelujah in Hebrew means “praise Yah”. Yah is a name and not the word God.

        God in Hebrew is El

        _______
        Just my thoughts

        1. 61
          Korky10posted 5 years ago in reply to this

          We must not get mixed up with what God we try to get close too.  Your right in saying that the name does not matter as long as we pray to the same God.  But wrong in saying it is good enough for each of us to pray to our own version of a God.  Once again you are using verses of the bible with no understanding of the text it was written in. The rulers and elders of the people questioned Peter as to by what power or what name did they perform these miricles.   Peter filled with the Holy Spirit answered the concerns of the rulers and elders in Acts 4, by stating in verse 12 that Salvation is found in no one else,(clear enough) for there is no other name given to mankind by which we must be saved.  This is not even close to a argument your trying to create. Over in John 5 Jesus is challenging the jewish leaders that they were willing to accept the testimony of someone else, but not over his  coming in his fathers name.  (also proving Jesus was God as well).  This says nothing about any name being  good enough.  Jesus was saying Jewish leaders accepted a different name, over his.  So your verses prove one thing and that is Jesus, God and Holy Spirit are one and together make-up the Trinity.  Also that only by Jesus’ name can we be saved. As for believing two different Gods as being O-kay?  Slipery slop to Hell.  You really show no evidence of having read any of the bible other than a few verses that suite your fancy.

          1. Disappearinghead profile image90
            Disappearingheadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Ooh where did I leave that popcorn?

            1. 61
              Korky10posted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Pay attention to verse 20.

              Lu 12:16 And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:
              Lu 12:17 And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?
              18 And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.
              19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
              20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?
              21 So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God. (KJV)

            2. Ann Marie Dwyer profile image79
              Ann Marie Dwyerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Let me pass you a new bowl.

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            Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            ________________________

            I NEVER said it does not matter about the name, and I never said people can pray to their version of God!!!!

            Are you hallucinating?

            You can't understand me and you expect us to believe you understand scripture.

            It is people like you that tarnishes people's reputation, saying they said things they didn't say.

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              Korky10posted 5 years ago in reply to this

              someone who believes part of the word of God, and discards other parts of the bible, have no credibility and their reputation can not get worse. As the Word of God is inspired by God himself I pray for God's mercy on those who think themselves as more wise than the creator hiimself

              1. 0
                Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                _________________

                What has that got to do with you saying I said something I did not say???
                What you said was a lie

                All of the Bible is not the word of God. Paul was a liar too. But the tares were left with the seeds


                Pray for yourself. God is the judge of us.

                1. 61
                  Korky10posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  If the bible has no credibility , then who cares about anything written in the bible.  How do you know the words of Jesus are actually his words?

                  1. 61
                    Korky10posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Jesus proved that He is the Son of God, giving Him the infallible authority to claim the inspiration and inerrancy of the Bible. Jesus taught that the entire Bible, both the Old Testament (Matt 21:13, 26:31, 5:18 and Luke 4:27) and the New Testaments (John 14:24, 16:12-13) is the infallible and inerrant word of God. Since the gospels give an accurate and reliable record of what He taught, it has been established that the entire Bible is really the errorless and authoritative word of God. Not only can we believe everything in it, but it demands our obedience.

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                    Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    _______________

                    I never said the Bible has no credibility

                    Making up stuff again??

  5. earnestshub profile image88
    earnestshubposted 5 years ago

    Why do christians think everyone else is wrong?

    Thousands of religions believe they are the only ones who are right.
    Why?

    Because they are told this by their book of course!

    1. livelonger profile image89
      livelongerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      "Thousands of religions..." lol

      I'm sure you've made a very careful study of this, earnest...and you're not just trying to multiply your hatred of Christianity by, well, thousands.

      1. earnestshub profile image88
        earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        There are thousands of religions, there always will be as long as people try to run other peoples lives there will be some fanatic quoting his or her version of "the only true god"

        Would you like to see a list?
        I don't do hate.... a self defeating emotion.
        Lying for jesus again are we?

        1. livelonger profile image89
          livelongerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Yes, I'd like to call you on your bluff. Provide a list of religions that say they are the only one true religion, and point to their book for support. (Please do so off-site, since littering a forum thread with a list of "thousands" of religions won't be appreciated by most)

          Use all your Jeebuses and Innits you want; I'm not a Christian (even though you seem to imagine that everyone who disagrees with you is).

          And sorry, as much as you say that you're not consumed with hatred and that you simply don't believe in any religion, 90% of your presence is in the forum is to purge your past of being a persistent, proselytizing evangelical Christian (by being a persistent, proselytizing atheist).

          1. 0
            Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            _____________________

            There are 20000-23000 Christian denominations alone. Their book is the Bible alone and they discourage reading other religious books.

            Most, not all, of these Christian religions believe they hold the truth
            and their way is the only way to God

            1. aka-dj profile image79
              aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I doubt there are that many denominations.
              There are that many congregations, and MORE.

              Your assumption of each having their own truth, and others not, is also wrong.
              I think you will find that fundamental doctrine is almost identical in most of these.

              If a church is not founded on the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, they are considered a sect.

              That is about as fundamental as one needs to get. The rest is merely an expression of corporate focus.
              IE, some focus on evangelism, some on teaching, some on worship, some on childrens ministry, some on missions etc. But Jesus Christ is the center if everything

              1. 0
                Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                ___________________________

                This is from the Oxford World Christian Encyclopedia (1982) of which he is the editor. Also, according to the United Nations statistics there were over  23,000  competing and often contradictory denominations worldwide (World Census of Religious Activities [U.N. Information Center, NY, 1989]). This was cited in Frank Schaeffer's book  Dancing Alone (Brookline, MA: Holy Cross Press, 1994), page 4. Schaeffer is Orthodox.

                1. brotheryochanan profile image60
                  brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  no doubt mormon and the thousands of branches of catholicism were wrapped up in that too, as well as scientology and jehovahs witness, kabalists and karate schools smile

                  got a link?
                  I could not find it

                  1. 0
                    Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    ___________________

                    In This count it was only Christians..no Kabbalah or Jews in this Group

                    Better research before commenting. It's in a Book

                    And by the way

                    Kabbalah is not a religion

                    The Kabbalah is the Western world's take on Jewish Mysticism, and I am a JM


                    UPDATE
                    I found a website with excerpts from the World Christian Encyclopedia
                    http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/a106.htm

              2. brotheryochanan profile image60
                brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                beautifully said.. wonderful.
                Its time to put to rest this false belief that every office (church) of a corporation (denomination) is a separate conflicting entity.

                1. 0
                  Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  As long as Christians, themselves, proclaim that other professed Christians are going to hell; I don't consider it far fetched to assume that they are of different sects. They are definitely conflicting entities.

                  1. brotheryochanan profile image60
                    brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    that doesn't make sense
                    more info needed

            2. 61
              Korky10posted 5 years ago in reply to this

              It is the only God inspired book, written over 1600 years by 40 or so authors. All in agreement

            3. 61
              Korky10posted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Because the bible says so

              1. pisean282311 profile image56
                pisean282311posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                that it is god inspired book is mere belief like belief by muslims that quran is god inspired book and like jews believe about their book...

                1. 61
                  Korky10posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  If you actually did some reading you would find almost always you have people from other religions coming to christ, and not the other way around.   You would also find that the bible is the most logical explanation why we are here. I would strongly advise you do some reading before it is to late. For onto us it is appointed for us to die, and after this the judgment

                  1. Cagsil profile image84
                    Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    BS.

                  2. pisean282311 profile image56
                    pisean282311posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    @korky10 it seems u are bit out of touch with world these days....there are more people going out of Christianity than coming in...secondly have u read quran or torah or gita?...if yes then only u can claim that it has most logical explanation...then come how do u justify ur claim...so first question have u read quran or gita or torah?

                  3. A Troubled Man profile image60
                    A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    After an eternity, an invisible fairy waves his magic hand and creates a universe, further creating a human man from dust and a woman from a rib of the dust-made man, later a talking snake, the professor and Mary Anne, here on Gilligan's Island.

                    Yeah, that's a perfectly logical explanation.

              2. 0
                Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                _______

                The Bible says what?

                I was responding to a post on how many Christian Denominations there are

                1. brotheryochanan profile image60
                  brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  123

            4. 67
              paarsurreyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              If their way has been the truthful way; they should have not  split into 20000-23000 Christian denominations . They think that "Jesus was the way" yet they don't believe what Jesus used to believe and they don't do what Jesus did; they don't follow Jesus for sure.

              1. A Troubled Man profile image60
                A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                How many denominations are there of Islam, Paar?

                How many splits does it take to nullify a religion?

                1. DoubleScorpion profile image87
                  DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  There are two major ones that I know of..But the seperation not based on beliefs of the religion, but of who should have taken "Charge" after the death of Muhammed. One branch thought that the the kin of Muhammed should have taken authority, while the other branch felt it should have been those who were the "most wise" in the muslim tradition. (Something to that effect anyways) smile

                  1. brotheryochanan profile image60
                    brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    just speculating here, but would perhaps their, 'kill all those who convert away' philosophy account for lack of splits? Is this not at least equal to the inquisition mindset of catholicism?

                    and i thought i already showed that this huge number of denominations is not accurate.

                2. lone77star profile image90
                  lone77starposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Ego is the enemy, not religion, @Troubled.

                  But do you love your own self-righteousness too much to allow such an idea?

                  Ego nullifies a great deal, and you are so good at it. wink

                  I'm also pretty good with ego, but heck, if you like it so much, you can have mine, too. But then, I wouldn't wish my ego on anyone.

                  1. A Troubled Man profile image60
                    A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Nonsense. There are lots of people with egos who don't believe or go around saying Jesus opened up a boulevard of cars so I could get to where I was going, for example.



                    I wouldn't wish your religion on anyone. smile

                  2. brotheryochanan profile image60
                    brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Ego doesn't even exist, its just another useless name to a useless concept
                    Kinda like ghost.

                    Ego is nothing more than self
                    God wants us to get rid of self
                    any path that endorses self is not of God

                    deal with it.

                  3. couturepopcafe profile image59
                    couturepopcafeposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    So ego does exist as self.  It is tagged as such for the benefit of the seer, the self.

              2. 0
                Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                ______________________

                I agree.

                and

                You can't just believe someone existed, you have to be like him

              3. lone77star profile image90
                lone77starposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                What if there were a separate denomination for each individual? Each would listen to the quiet, still voice within and keep searching for answers rather than thinking they've already arrived because of their chosen sect or denomination.

                Ego would have us cling to one way or another and to holding that way over other's heads as if to say, "I'm better than you."

                Too many feel that they need do nothing else and then lapse into selfish and egotistical ways rather than maintaining humility.

                Me, I'm still searching and continue to learn. Ego needs all the ammunition possible to fight it.

            5. Ann Marie Dwyer profile image79
              Ann Marie Dwyerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              In fact, the Bible is why Christians claim all other religions wrong:
              John 3:5
              John 3:18 (the T-shirts are not big enough)
              John 14:6
              Just to name a few.

              1. 61
                Korky10posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                BINGO!  yOU GOT IT.  The Bible is why all Religion is wrong.

                1. 0
                  Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  ___________
                  Yahshua never spoke of himself, he spoke of God.
                  He was God's voice


                  John 12:49
                  For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.


                  John 14:10
                  Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

                2. Ann Marie Dwyer profile image79
                  Ann Marie Dwyerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Including the Christianity practiced today.

                  1. brotheryochanan profile image60
                    brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    There is little wrong with the Christianity practiced today. Yes it is a long way from the Early Church doctrines, which is not too surprising, considering the smorgasbord of belief systems we have today, it is a murky journey indeed to find the right one.
                    But in the church are people who enjoy and love God even if they have only a faint glimpse of him. And this is what God is looking for.
                    Recall he only asked us to believe in him and the rest of what God is doing in the christians life, is between them and God.
                    Finger pointing or making generalizations or using the church for an excuse is beside the point.
                    We can all accept God and make our own journey. The closer we get to him the more accurate our doctrine will be and the better show our life will be onto others.
                    Doesn't matter how many denominations there are - find one and enjoy it.
                    Doesn't matter how we interpret genesis 3, that will probably not even be a question in the afterlife.
                    Doesn't matter about a lot of things: how many chakras we have opened, how many times we did the rosary, what we thought of mary, If we read all about history, science, psychology, whether we healed people or prophesied.
                    What matters is how close we get to God, through jesus. and everything else will work itself out.

              2. 0
                Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Deleted

                1. aka-dj profile image79
                  aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  He was named Jesus, according to the angel Gabriel.
                  Immanuel is WHO He was/IS. (God with us).

                  1. DoubleScorpion profile image87
                    DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    According to the Book of Matthew verse 23: Gabriel tells Joseph that he would be called Immanuel (God with us), but verse 24: Joseph called him Jesus (God saves).
                    Matt 1:23 which is a word for word quote from Isa 7:24.

                    But in Luke, Gabriel tells Mary to name him Jesus.

            6. 61
              Korky10posted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Yes I have a fearful mind. Do I sound like that. You try in valid to attack truth. Without Christ you will be in hell. the bible says that not me. Christ died on the cross for you and me. Why do you think he died. Don't give me the answer that he had to fulfill what the prophets said. They also said he would be the savior of the world. If you rely on any thing else your insulting him and making his death worthless. About being lesser intelligent .  Give me some facts on what ou believe. How do you know what Jesus said.  How do you know Luke was not a liar.

  6. jay_kumar_07 profile image60
    jay_kumar_07posted 5 years ago

    Most of us are ready to argue in favor of  by-birth religion .  why
    pl

  7. shaktilove profile image61
    shaktiloveposted 5 years ago

    good question smile
    I think it comes from time when early christians disputed about basics of christianity - one is right who offers a more logical arguments. But problem is - there is no a real basis, at all. Whole structure is built on tales. It is why believers are advocating so keen - notwithstanding religion he presents. If Your beliefs dont bring You a full satisfaction [consolation], You need to get them from others, additionally.

    1. kittythedreamer profile image96
      kittythedreamerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Great point, swaktilove. Thank you.

      1. shaktilove profile image61
        shaktiloveposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks for appreciation, Kitty smile
        I was thinking about such thing for years, but still dont have a proper answer... actually there are many reasons for such behavior.
        Now I see, only one we can do - to pray all orthodox institutions disappear as quick as possible. They all are instruments in hands of powerholders.

  8. Jeff Berndt profile image90
    Jeff Berndtposted 5 years ago

    Well, there's this passage in the Bible where Jesus says something like "Nobody comes to the Father but through me."
    And lots of Christians interpret that to mean, "if you're not a Christian (and specifically, my denomination), then you're doomed to Hell."

    Hell is supposed to be really, really awful.

    So some Christians try to save people from Hell out of kindness. If you really believed that a real Hell really, literally existed, wouldn't you try to warn people about it, and show them how to avoid going there? The ones who proselytize out of kindness are kind of like the person who yells, "Look out for that bus!" The problem, though, is that the bus is invisible, and nobody really knows for sure if it's there or not.

    But other Christians seem to get off of on power. You are wrong, but I can set you right if you just do as I tell you. The passage I mentioned above is a convenient excuse for this kind of behavior. But difficulties come when one person who has accepted Jesus Christ as his personal savior disagrees with the scripture interpretation of someone else who has also accepted Jesus Christ etc. If the scripture is perfect and eternal, then there's really only one way to interpret it, right? So somebody has to be wrong, and it's got to be you, because I arrived at my conclusion through study and verified my conclusion through prayer. So did you? Well, obviously, you've been led astray by Satan. Look out for that bus! No, you idiot, it's a taxicab. No, it's a bus! Cast off the shoe, follow the gourd! The Holy Gourd of Jerusalem!

    The way I look at it, when someone shares with me the Good Tidings of Our Savior, I try to assume that they're metaphorically shouting "Look out for that bus!" Never mind that I wasn't going to step into the street, or never mind that the bus isn't in danger of running me over; they genuinely thought I was in danger, and they're trying to be kind to me.

    Sometimes, though, they turn out to be the power-trip kind. I haven't got any time for them. Yeah, yeah, look out for the bus. But you know what? It's stopping to let me on, so, 'bye.

    1. kittythedreamer profile image96
      kittythedreamerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Haha...too funny and too true! I like the bus metaphor, I'm going to have to use that in the future. And you're right, it probably is that they are trying to be kind and save others from the proverbial bus. I should look at it a little more kindly in the future, and I will. But the power-trippers...no thanks.

      1. Jeff Berndt profile image90
        Jeff Berndtposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Indeed, I made a good friend when someone stopped by my house to witness to me once upon a time. We talked (I had some time on my hands and was feeling chatty) and we traded interpretations of a couple passages of scripture, and there was never any "look out or you'll end up in Hell." In fact, our conversations often remind me of stuff that I've forgotten (usually about patience, and being kind even when you don't much feel like it). It may surprise you to know that she's a Jehovah's Witness.

        But if she'd turned out to be the sort who tries to scare you into joining a church, we'd never have gotten along so well. I treat power trippers like telemarketers: politely, but firmly, say goodbye.

  9. sparkster profile image93
    sparksterposted 5 years ago

    Personally I'm agnostic.  However, I am starting to think that religion seems more like memetic propaganda which is designed to spread and could therefore ultimately be used to control the masses.  There does seem to be a lot of scare tactics in the bible.

    The vatican have actually admitted to making 14 changes to the new testament despite the fact that it actually says in there and making changes to the words contained within is against God.

    Here's a few shocking excerpts:

    DEUTERONOMY 22:13-21
    But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:  Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.

    MARK 12:18-27
    “Moses wrote for us that if a man’s brother dies and leaves a wife but no children, the man must marry the widow and raise up offspring for his brother."

    There's also much worse.

    1. livelonger profile image89
      livelongerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      There is plenty in the Bible that is seriously disturbing...as you might imagine a book written 2000+ years ago would be.

      The mistake - made by both religious and non-religious people - is that it was a template for modern behavior. To divorce it from its context is to simultaneously give it too much and too little importance.

      1. couturepopcafe profile image59
        couturepopcafeposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        First comment I can fully agree with.

  10. R.S. Hutchinson profile image86
    R.S. Hutchinsonposted 5 years ago

    All I know is

    RS for President!!

  11. lone77star profile image90
    lone77starposted 5 years ago

    @KittyTheDreamer, why do you sling such generalities?

    I could ask, why is it all Pagans are such _______! Fill in the blank with whatever. The operative word is "all." But do "all" of any group conform to anyone's preconceived notions? Stereotyping is bad. Why perpetuate it? Shame on you!

    I'm a Christian who happens to have been a Buddhist and still have fond feelings for Rinpoche Gyaltsen, my mentor from so many years ago. I have learned one of my biggest spiritual breakthroughs from a Hindu here on HubPages. And I have high regard for the more wise Native Americans and their heightened awareness of nature.

    Unlike some Christians, I try to approach learning with humility. In other words, I don't know everything. Could Gautama Siddhartha have been "following Christ" when he achieved Nirvana (Enlightenment or Buddha-hood)? Perhaps. Who am I to judge?

    And likewise, who are you to judge? Just a thought.

    Different lives and different experiences? Some of those move in dark circles, Kitty. Can you blame a Christian for being concerned about others? What if they're right that others will "burn in hell?"

    Frankly, I think most Christians who belabor that point are full of ego, and all their Bible thumping is grist for their ego mill. But not all of them. Some are humble and sincere.

    As spiritual beings, we're currently trapped in the physical plane of existence. That's all because of ego (Satan, the Devil). How do we get out of the trap? It's not easy. We've been at it for perhaps millions of years, if my biblical calculations are right. Only a handful have made it, including Buddha.

    But if the spirits who are helping us out, plan to leave after the next harvest, then those who are left behind likely will never make it. I'd call that hell, and I don't like the prospect of being left behind.

    I call myself a Christian, but I'm not so arrogant to think that I have it made quite yet. I don't know that I'm doing what would qualify as "following Christ." I could be wrong, then I'd hate to find that out after the train has left the station.

  12. WD Curry 111 profile image61
    WD Curry 111posted 5 years ago

    Personally, I don't think everyone else is wrong. I almost never quote scripture. I use my own words from my own heart. I will make an exception in this case. The setting . . . the author is addressing Jewish Christians in Rome. He is discussing the relationship between the "Law" (we should know what that is) and faith. He is talking about their "my way or the highway" mentality:

    ". . . it is not the hearers of the Law who are justified before God, but the doers of the law will be justified. For the Gentiles (heathens, infidels), not having the Law, do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law are a Law unto themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts either accusing them or else defending them on the day, according to my gospel, that God will judge the secrets of men through Jesus Christ."

    Have you ever noticed how Hindus, Buddhists and Muslims from India seem to make the best Christians?

    Now I have answered the question to satisfy curiosity, not engage in a senseless argument, as is often the case. "Only a fool picks a fight with a stranger . . . he just might just get his ass kicked." Chip Curry

    1. brotheryochanan profile image60
      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I did not quite understand if you were being sarcastic or not about hindus etc.. make the best christians.

      according to the law there are many who seem to be good christians but in reality they are not good christians they are just good. And good is an advantage but not the way.

      The scriptures are a narrative of God's interaction with humankind. If we lose this notion of Gods desire for relationship with human beings, we are in danger of losing the heart of the Christian faith. Doctrines, of course, will flow from that faith, but when the scriptures call us to believe, we are being called to put our trust in someone, not to just agree with a bunch of doctrine.

  13. wwe-wrestlingnews profile image60
    wwe-wrestlingnewsposted 5 years ago

    thats realy bad.

  14. pisean282311 profile image56
    pisean282311posted 5 years ago

    that is another prove that religion is human made phenomena since it is not about christians or muslims but more about how human design works...

    1. Jerami profile image79
      Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I cain't arue with that??

    2. Jerami profile image79
      Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      So If we know that we are doin ing   IT! !!  .....                       Why cain't we quit it?

      1. pisean282311 profile image56
        pisean282311posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        quit what? religion or design?...design is difficult to quit and religions keep coming and going...all these religious heads or gods are not even 2000 or 4000 years back kind of things...we had gods or religion before that too...so religions keep coming , going but design of having religion and god is something which is as old as when humans began to think...which is long long back...

  15. brotheryochanan profile image60
    brotheryochananposted 5 years ago

    Its really nice to hear all the syncretic views of Orthodoxy become flexidology, but... What has occurred is that these people have filled their plate at the smorgasbord of various beliefs, taking a bit from this and from that. Bits and pieces that seem appropriate and leaving behind what they don't like.

    But this is wrong.

    There is so much persuasive information that completely contradicts God allowing people to choose their own mishmash from front cover to back cover, God nor his prophets, nor his Son, nor the apostles and no letters, nowhere in the pentateuch, psalms, ecclesiastics, 1 second kings.. the minor prophets.. you get my point.. is this allowed.

    God made rigid and sundry rules, ordained a sabbath day, ordained the animal sacrifice, made feasts and festivals, put down standards and instructed His people in every way, consequently, this all points to ONE way.

    Before the temple was destroyed in 70AD, which jesus predicted, jesus ushered in a new way and fulfilled scriptures, and then offered himself up for everyone in the world, present and future. Again ONE way.

    There is only one way and its not whether we believe in a literal snake on a tree or what if the body of jesus was found or how long before our sun burns out (4 billion years apparently - talk about eternity huh) or how the complexity of DNA precludes God.. or any other such thing. Its the core beliefs that are most important because they offer hope and joy and inspire faith to move obstacles.

    Just believe on Him is all that is required to get the ball rolling. Its not hard, its not rocket science, there is no path to enlightenment that requires the opening of a third eye, No one has to live on a mountain top, no one has to open all the history books and search for evidence of Jesus, no one has to go to bible school and get a diploma. Believe on him.

    So just skipping around the sacrifice of Jesus is definitely not the way, and if that's not the way then some other way must be right and you'll find it in the bible and your own personal relationship with God merely because you believed.

    1. pisean282311 profile image56
      pisean282311posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      what sacrifice?...did jesus die or is he still there?...if he is still there and god as many claim , then god can never die and knowing well that he cannot die , getting himself on cross is not sacrifice to start with...it can be said sacrifice only if that was the end...normal human beings have made more sacrifices than that...when a fire fighter dies saving people trapped , it is more sacrifice than done by some one who knows he/she cannot die...

      1. aka-dj profile image79
        aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        A firefighter makes a sacrifice to save a few people.
        Jesus died to save ALL HUMANITY.

        Just a "little" different, yes?

        1. pisean282311 profile image56
          pisean282311posted 5 years ago in reply to this

          that is what I am saying...If i know i am not going to die and then hang myself , is it sacrifice?...obviously not , since anyway i am not going to die...sacrifice of fire fighter is much greater than jesus since that is true sacrifice...

          1. aka-dj profile image79
            aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Yes, I know what you are saying, but you are assuming (incorrectly) that Jesus neither died, nor COULD die, when in fact He DID die.
            There's a difference between knowing you have the power to rise from the dead, and not dying in the first place.

            Don't tell me, you are another Muslim? Am I correct?

            1. pisean282311 profile image56
              pisean282311posted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I am not muslim...Now coming to you answer...knowing that in end u wont die or to be precise be raised from death is like having bullet proof jacket and facing bullets...do we call that sacrifice???????...we can call that commitment to safe others or some thing on those line but sacrifice?????....it can be said to be sacrifice only when one knows that it is the end and no one would rise him from death and still going for it...that is sacrifice ...This can be called many things including stunt to woo people knowing well that he would rise back....sacrifice is something which cannot be done by divine or divine agent, it can be done only by normal human beings...Yes if jesus was plain human and rise from death had nothing to do with jesus but more to do with god who sent jesus , it makes sacrifice but for that jesus has to be plain human being and nothing more than that...

              1. WD Curry 111 profile image61
                WD Curry 111posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                We groan with longing to know. Jesus was a normal human being at that point. He died like we will. He was resurrected by the power of The Most High, The Great Spirit who gave us the buffalo. The buffalo is holy, it came from Wankan-Tanka, the one who spoke and made the big bang. The Giver of Life who made all of this earth holy, who is the life in every tree and animal and even every blade of grass. The mono-pole , the force that holds it all together. The Earth and all that is in it is holy. We desecrate it daily with our foul activity. We writhe in anticipation of our fate. We know. We know. No answer will give us peace.  Our abominations against this holy place are a stench in our own nostrils . . . Burning . . . clawing at our sleep. We gorge ourselves with pleasure and luxuries beyond reason. The longing still lingers. . . gnawing at our rest. Nothing can satisfy. We can't drown the knowing. Our rantings are futile , it is too late. We cry out from our pathetic existence, we did not chose this life. Why was it thrust upon us? All is vanity. The wise man and the fool are alike. The earth totters like a shack. The one who flees in terror falls into a trap. The one who escapes the trap is caught in a snare. The love of many will grow cold, men will become scoffers and lovers of themselves.They walk about like drunkards and grope along the wall. The tribes of the earth will mourn and their hearts will melt within them.

                I am looking forward to discarding these rags. I am not righteous. I have gone so far as to deserve death. How will I pass muster on the day when all is revealed. We all know of that day. We know. We will be seen in his clothes, since we ruined ours on the way home. I am sorry! There are not words enough. Explanations fail, but the Love of God never fails.

                Let's sit quietly and watch the sun set over the water. We will not say a word. It looks the same to both of us. I am glad you are here. I like you sitting next to me. We will make a small fire and have a smoke. The day was satisfying, becuse you came along. Let's rest now. Tomorrow we will write a hub and suggest links.

              2. brotheryochanan profile image60
                brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                This is not a sacrifice by definition: it is so important and i am giving it away, it means so much to me it hurts. This is a sacrifice by definition: offering. Something given in homage.
                The point is... that the body died. The body is the sacrifice, just as the animal body was the sacrifice, jesus body was the sacrifice. Its not a question of killing God. A sacrifice was needed and it was given. Its not a question of resurrection, resurrection is a given and another point of the death of the body, there can be no resurrection without a body that has died.
                The crucifixion, Jesus - the lamb of God, sacrificed: Its just plain brilliant!

                1. brotheryochanan profile image60
                  brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  BRILLIANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                  1. brotheryochanan profile image60
                    brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Really, Really, BRILLIANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  16. smzclark profile image60
    smzclarkposted 5 years ago

    what i don't understand is why so many people put so much time and energy into thinking about life after death when they could be putting it into life before death!!!

    i don't see that the question has been answered as much as it has been proven valid.

    and i have to add...let people believe what they want...'as long as they're seeking god in some form.'? is that suggesting that anyone who isn't seeking some god deserves to be told that they are wrong and will suffer at the end of it all...?! that's just as bad in my opinion. nobody deserves to be judged. most of us are just trying to find our way, whether that means believing or not...

    1. 61
      Korky10posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      You will never find your way by your own strength.  You were created for a purpose, and that was to glorify God. You are loved by God and he wants you out of your own free will to choose to serve him.  Afterlife is very important and it should concern you as it lasts forever.  Which religion do we follow?  None!  Religion is human made and out of our works. Faith in Christ is about being accepted by God.

  17. Chaotic Chica profile image84
    Chaotic Chicaposted 5 years ago

    To start I want to state that I only read about maybe a quarter of the responses and those that I read did not reflect my opinion on the matter.  That brings me to point number two, this is my opinion and by no means the end-all be-all on the matter.

    With the 'disclosure' out of the way this is my take on the subject; Many years ago I set out to find my place in the world of religion, I sought to find the religion that best followed the basic beliefs that I had already formed.  During that pursuit I studied many forms of Christianity and I found a LOT of arrogance and ignorance and intolerance, qualities that Christians are not supposed to embody.

    After much reflection I came to realize that most of the arguments stemmed not from an intentional desire to prove superiority but in the strength of belief in their interpretation of what the Bible says.  The Bible itself, which I have studied many times (as a work of literature, as the word of God, solo and in bible studies with others), is riddled with contradictions and it is very easy to see how the book could be skewed by so many.  Additionally, as a book, it has been translated (by mortal humans) and mistakes happen (even intentional ones).  It is not such a stretch of the imagination to believe that someone may have gotten something wrong. 

    There is a joke/comic out there that shows a monk weeping loudly at a table with papers strewn all about.  Two other monks come upon him, one whispers a question to the other 'what is wrong with him'?  The other replies 'he was going through the translations and found that 'life of celebacy' was supposed to read 'life of celebration'.'  How easy would it have been for an eager scholar to misread or misinterpret his translation of a dead language?

    In the end I found that my relationship with God is between Him and I and is a personal thing.  I do not feel that He is hung up on 'religion' at all, especially since religion itself was created by man.  Thus I try my best to live by the Golden Rule of 'do unto others as you would have done unto you'.  I give thanks, I pray, I believe in forces unexplainable by any scientific means, and I believe that tolerance is far more important than most anything else and a tolerant person never needs to feel 'right' or necessarily vindicated.

    1. brotheryochanan profile image60
      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      So i guess that means that no books that have ever been translated are trustworthy. Yes there are errors, but this does not mean mistakes, nor does it mean that the doctrines or core beliefs of christianity are compromised, research has shown that the errors are minimal and really of no consequence. A microscope (patent 1955) has been used extensively in studying bible texts and to this day no major rewrite of the bible has occurred meaning the past translators did an excellent job. Paprologists are amazing at what they do. The epiflourescent confocal laser scanner microscope can discern between an intentional pen stroke and an accidental ink blot.  An eager scholar who is translating or copying the word of God and not just an ordinary book about the life of flatworms. As a hallowed and sacred book, this kind of source material ups the bar, so to speak. Greek is not a dead language, at least not back then and certainly not to people who studied for years and received doctorates in linguistics and certainly not to the translators whom were required to know greek language - as u mentioned, scholars.
      If God is not hung up on religion then why the feasts and the sacrifice of animals? If i have your definition of religion correct. The church is like any other dedicated place, its a place of learning, fellowship and growing but you have to find the right one as in the right school, job, house to buy... people need to find the right church. God instituted the church because in the synagogues moses was taught and the christian did not get exposed to christ and neither were allowed to voice their beliefs.
      Tolerance is okay but even with tolerance lines have to be drawn. Am i to be tolerant of my friends sugar addiction and his diabetes? Life is serious, afterlife is serious too. With all the work that God put out to ensure a right way, we ought to respect that and not white wash it.

      Nice post... i know its your opinion and like most people when the going gets rough they pick an easier path, doesn't mean they are right in doing so.
      I enjoyed the part you wrote about "After much reflection I came to realize that most of the arguments stemmed not from an intentional desire to prove superiority but in the strength of belief" Beliefs, no matter what they are will always ostracize those who are outside of that belief. Its a shame but its a fact, whether the belief is right or not, this is a byproduct of believing, the one listening to the belief needs to realize the intention behind the belief, and then, examine the belief.

      Have a great day,i just thought i would add some info not to discredit you or argue, just fYi.

      1. Bharatthapa profile image60
        Bharatthapaposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        First!! It's a really stupid question to ask and second what i feel is, being religious doesn't mean that you are a good person or a bad person.
        What counts here is your behaviour.
        Listen i almost follow what my religion says(yes i said almost =P)
        Religions are meant to maintain law in this world to stop one from doing bad deeds(karma)
        Maybe when there was no law in the prehistoric time they used this method to maintain law and order and it worked also. Later, things they changed and came up with new ideas maybe some of them thought ..still there is some room for improvement and new religions were created.
        It tries to prevent you from all types of social evils for example:- boozing, murdering, stealing, raping, premarital sex blah blah.
        But many of us have already done almost all of these if someone refuses having not done these then i'd say that person is lying. =/

        So my advice to you "Don't fucking talk about religion...these questions are for retarted people".

        I ain't "hyp·o·crite"........so i came up with my honest opinion.

        Entonces dejame salir de aquí......buena suerte.

        1. Bharatthapa profile image60
          Bharatthapaposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          One more thing to add....we all are racist too ..a black man, an asian, etc etc they all shout "we are racially discriminated in that x country and they behave rudely"

          My question is when these white people, black, asian etc etc (whatever your ethnicity is) they come to your country....how many of you don't talk about his features and color????We all do....................................

          very bad extremely bad but ultimately more or less......only white man suffers...weird.. oO?

          mejor me voy de aquí. =P

          1. Bharatthapa profile image60
            Bharatthapaposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Back again....couldn't resist myself..lol.

            I have not encountered many white people in my life(face to face)
            So i can't judge them actually......perhaps it's true or perhaps not.
            When they are here in nuestro país they look pretty decent and soft spoken....next year i am planning to visit south america for 1month..then i'll get to know how exactly real white people they are and to what extent they are racist ... big_smile
            don't know... =P

            1. Bharatthapa profile image60
              Bharatthapaposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Three posts in a row.....(unlucky same like your friday the 13th)

              sorry ....one more post by me....little superstitious .... big_smile

              1. Cagsil profile image84
                Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Are you having fun talking to yourself? roll

                1. Bharatthapa profile image60
                  Bharatthapaposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  jajajajaaa...naaah no es así....maybe big_smile

            2. brotheryochanan profile image60
              brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              then try canada smile theres lots of whites up here, especially in the winter smile it seems not too many want to come up here from warmer climates. I'd go south if i could and forget winter completely.

        2. brotheryochanan profile image60
          brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Its interesting that you chose to vocalize your thoughts, but have you ever considered the real reason there is religion. Its not an opiate to control the masses.
          Lets consider the age of religion. It is ancient and sure its a common thing to say "oh those dumb goat herders", but this is not an answer either, at least not an intelligent answer.
               Egypt and all the nations that existed way back then all had their different beliefs and some things were common but they were each very much different. So how did this all happen? Why were nations, who were at war with each other and not liking each other end up with their own gods? To explain what they did not understand? Hmmm, but this is not an intelligent answer either neither does it adhere well to the 'controlling the masses' theory. The gods that were worshiped, back then, all had significance. The gods were not controlling dictators, in fact, many were fertility gods, gods connected with seasonal change and the afterlife. None of this can be  counted as an opiate to control the masses. The gods were worshiped to control their environment which at that time was very harsh and so was the lifestyle which included defending any land that a nation owned. No gods represented holiness and made people aware of sin as did the Hebrew God which they as a people - for they were not a nation, but slaves to the Egyptians - did not call upon, but rather God came to them out of the blue and ended their term of slavery and took them on a journey that they knew not where they would be going. Again not an opiate to control the masses but rather a concerned God who freed a small people, not rich or powerful or many in number. He did this that all the world might see through those people, the one true God. So we see that God had come to them not to control them - he allowed them to fight for the right to inhabit land and keep their freedom. He then instructed them, in ways contrary to all nations around them about how to live life prosperously. This prosperity came to them first in 10 commandments and then by the Law (which they chose to increase until the Law became their substitute for God.)  As Law is, concerning its nature, sentence is applied upon the verdict of guilt and to us in hindsight this may seem like a method of control, which in part it is, but only in part [as much as laws keep societies under control today, yet people have freedoms] and certainly not in whole, nor of intention. The intention was that they might abide by the law, as it was given, no more and no less, and prosper, materially and toward one another.
          So time went on: Jesus came, preached love, humility and truthfulness  and died, rose again and thereby birthed knowledge of God again, for the people had forgotten that the inner qualities being truth and goodness and obedience to Gods ways are what God is interested in and not just about serving a bunch of rules via reluctance or duty; but sincerity and mercy was very much preferred.
              Then along came Jesus. Who took 10 commandments and whittled them down to two. Love God and your neighbor.
          Only hindsight from a bent perspective could really try to say that all this was created just to keep people in line.

          Now the myths of the greeks and romans are a different story, as a study about 'double doctrine' will tell you concerning Socrates but for brevity i leave that out.

          New religions are created because there are many beliefs in the world today and it is common practice to pick and choose from this smorgasbord of 'ways and paths' and mix n match to accommodate ones designer needs, such as the Presbyterian Buddhist, the christian who believes in reincarnation and karma or the hindu atheist who accepts dargon who lives on alpha centuri, but this is just the nature of people who have a bias toward some religions and do not want the persuasive evidence to tell them what to do, they will choose their own path, which, relentlessly makes more paths.

          Of the things you mentioned: "boozing, murdering, stealing, raping, premarital sex"... perhaps knowing a God that wants to prevent the liver failure and life destroying abilities of alcoholism, the loss of a loved one being taken away before old age, the set backs of robbery, the ruination of psychological damage and bodily harm, and the loss of joy that a couple have experimenting as newbies, their sexual life together as man and wife, would have helped prevent any of these 'unable to undo and unable to get that wasted time back' situation from ever occurring.

          Now, what is really, retarded?

          Also a sidenote about feelings. Feelings are only part of what we are, we are thinkers able to act in responsible ways, to discipline ourselves. Often feelings are used to rationalize all sorts of things and to eliminate a need for thoughtful research before one starts a rant. "I must be true to my feelings" and then commit adultery for example.. or i feel that there is no one way to God and that's my opinion. Feelings can be very tricky and can deceive if only feelings are utilized to make decisions. When people follow ONLY their feelings they are being untrue to themselves as a whole unit and ignoring all of what they can be and what their life could be.

          hope this helped

          1. WD Curry 111 profile image61
            WD Curry 111posted 5 years ago in reply to this

            You need to copy this and make a hub. I'm not even joking. You are on a roll. If you don't, I'll change a couple of things and call it mine.

            1. brotheryochanan profile image60
              brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              lol
              thanks for that!

              Gimme a link when its done :handshake:

              1. 60
                hyperimmunehealthposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                So when is your book being published? This as a great post and sounds like you could have expanded it a great deal but held back because it was a forum post.

                1. brotheryochanan profile image60
                  brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  lol
                  i dislike writing

                  There are too many bases that need to be covered or I know someone will pick an area just for the sake of argument or spurt some redundant comment that i could have eliminated if i had just written a few more lines.

                  much good is destroyed by a little evil
                  truly, I always try to be brief because this is a forum post, yet the necessity to cover the bases weighs heavily upon me. I'd rather one big post, i suppose, than several confuting posts.

    2. WD Curry 111 profile image61
      WD Curry 111posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Translations can be tricky. That was a great joke. I attended a Baptist church for a few years and I learned something there. If you want to invite someone from church to go fishing with you. Invite two . . . then they won't drink your beer.

      Literally, the "Golden Rule" is LOVE your neighbor as you love yourself.

      1. A Troubled Man profile image60
        A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he drinks beer all day long.

        1. WD Curry 111 profile image61
          WD Curry 111posted 5 years ago in reply to this

          We have found common ground. Maybe we can build from here.

  18. knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 5 years ago

    Think the same as the Catholic/Protestant dichotomy; having to through the church or being able to have a self-relationship with God, independent of the church.

    1. brotheryochanan profile image60
      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      In fact - 
        Galatians 5:22   But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
        Galatians 5:23   Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law
      - these require communal living. These are community virtues that need to be cultivated in a way that can't be accomplished in isolation.

      Proverbs 27:17   Iron sharpens iron; so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend.

      Hebrews 10:25   Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

      Luke 22:19   And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

      1. 61
        Korky10posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Well said

  19. 60
    hyperimmunehealthposted 5 years ago

    I was raised as a Presbyterian where nothing more than the bible was studied. We had a great pastor who only taught the bible at his sermons. He was a great speaker, held an audience captive and left his congregation feeling peaceful. I never had any feelings that I was right or other religions were wrong. Most of my relatives were Catholic so I was in a Catholic Church as often as my own.  various life functions afforded me an opportunity to attend other churches.
      If you go back to the origins of Christianity and the Catholic Church you will be highly disappointed to learn how they operated, set rules, fought to convert and contributed to the deaths of many for the sake of religion. We now celebrate some holidays that are really known as Pagan holidays designated by the church for its parishioners. Many religions were spin offs with their own rules and beliefs. People need to feel comfortable there but not shove their beliefs down every ones throat.
       I have an open mind and learned about various religions. I'm glad I went to a church that had no insane rules but just taught us what was in the bible. People are incorrect if they feel they are right and everyone else is wrong. The bible is the basis for all religion. Science has been able to explain many details in the bible with some accuracy but others are still miracles. If you can open your mind look into the sky one night. Stare at the stars and think about this, where does all this begin and is there an end. We are accustomed to knowing everything has a beginning and an end but out there in space the universe has no end.

  20. 0
    Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago

    ____________________________________
    James 2:14
    What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

    James 2:17
    Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

    1 John 2:6
    He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked

    1. 61
      Korky10posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      James 2:19. You believe their is a God?  Good even the demons believe that and they shudder. Your scipture is correct.  No amount of works will save you as we are saved by faith alone. But out of this faith comes works and good deeds that come from our free will. Faith without works is dead. A true believer will show by what he does that he is a Christian. But this work will never save you, only faith in God

      1. 0
        Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        _______________________

        Many people have been derailed by the Pauline doctrine

        1. MickeySr profile image87
          MickeySrposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Paul articulated the true meaning and consequence of the person and work and teaching of Jesus of Nazareth . . . there was no conflict between Jesus' message and Paul's message, and the apostles who Jesus personally chose and trained for a year and a half all understood this and recognized Paul as a teacher sent from God - those since who try to keep the 'Jesus' part of Christianity while rejecting Christianity do so by both fashioning for themselves a 'Jesus' that appeals to them and marking Paul as a conniving religious entrepreneur and so rejecting his teaching . . . this is simply a rewriting of the historic record and self-serving rationale.

          1. 0
            Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            That's a bizarre statement. You set the teachings of Paul above the words of the one the faith was named after. I realize the vast majority of Christians do this, but not many are willing to admit it

            1. MickeySr profile image87
              MickeySrposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I said "Paul articulated the true meaning and consequence of the person and work and teaching of Jesus of Nazareth" - how is that setting Paul's teaching above Jesus'?

              1. 0
                Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Because you also said those since who try to keep the 'Jesus' part of Christianity while rejecting Christianity do so by both fashioning for themselves a 'Jesus' that appeals to them

                What you are basically saying is that Paul, not Jesus, defines Christianity. You follow Paul by those words. What do you think Christianity was meant to be, other than following Christ? The gospels are a stand alone message. Paul's writings aren't.

                1. 0
                  Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  _______________

                  You are very enlightened

                2. MickeySr profile image87
                  MickeySrposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Emile R,

                  I said those who reject Paul's teaching as contrary to Jesus' reaching are "fashioning for themselves a 'Jesus' that appeals to them" - the part of Christianity that they want to keep is a 'Jesus' I marked within apostrophes, as in, not the actual Jesus of history but a notion some call "Jesus" that teaches what they prefer him to teach.

                  I'm saying Paul was called and ordained by Jesus to present His truth, the truth of who He is and what he did . . . Paul's teaching does not at all contradict Jesus teaching. It is specifically and only because I am a disciple of Jesus that I recognize and embrace Paul's teaching of Jesus' message.

                  1. 0
                    Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    So, you explain why you feel Paul is the one who defines and determines Christianity. The Christ did a pretty good job defining himself. If his message needed the help of a Paul, his message wasn't worth the gospels it was documented in.



                    So, what purpose did the gospels serve?



                    No.. You embrace Paul's message by placing more emphasis on it than you do the words of the Christ. Which is certainly your right. I'm simply amazed that you claim to be a disciple of Jesus.

            2. 0
              Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              __________________

              I asked and a few Christian's told me they follow the teachings of Paul over Yahshua. They stated it is because Paul said once Yahshua died, his teachings and laws were no longer in effect

              I'm glad you can see the truth.

              1. 67
                paarsurreyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                A true observation; the Christians only know Paul; neither they know Jesus nor Jesus knows them; complete strangers.

                1. MickeySr profile image87
                  MickeySrposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  I'm a Christian - what do you imagine or assume that I have wrong about Jesus? Because I identify myself to be 'Christian', what comes to your mind that suggests to you that I, who you don't know at all, don't know Jesus and that He doesn't know me?

                  1. 67
                    paarsurreyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Jesus' mission was for the Jews only not for the gentiles; when he told the disciples to go and spread the message to all nations; he meant all the twelve tribes of Israel not others.

                    It is deviant Paul who changed Jesus' teachings for his own self designed motives.

                    If Jesus meets some Christians; he won't recognize them from their beliefs or their deeds.

              2. brotheryochanan profile image60
                brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I do not know who in the world would say such a thing. Nothing could be farther from the truth about Jesus teachings be done once he died... if you know someone who said that i would seriously have to absolutely doubt everything else they say.

                There is no truth whatsoever to this slanderous accusation about Paul being wrong. Paul uses OT scripture often. Paul admits to preaching Christ crucified etc... such baloney.

                1. 0
                  Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  -------------------

                  Paul said it and yes it is not true

                  1. brotheryochanan profile image60
                    brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    That's just crap.
                    Pauls mission is different that jesus.
                    Jesus went to the jews
                    Paul went to the gentiles.
                    the two missions are different BUT the same God that inspired both.
                    So how can they be contrary.
                    The church was birthed because "in the temples Moses is preached" and the christians did not get fed Christ. Christians needed a place to hear the gospel, not go over isaiah again. The church is a natural extension of a place to worship, etc. Jesus set that up and Paul wrote it in his letters. No problem there.
                    Paul said grace by faith and not the law. No problem there. The law died on the cross with Christ and "now cometh grace (gods permissive will) by faith (belief on him who died). Because without the law, what else is there? No law... how about faith.. ahhhhh.
                    Paul wrote of the uncircumcision of the heart
                    Deuteronomy 10:16   Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
                    oh look so did moses
                    Deuteronomy 30:6   And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
                    both jesus and paul knew this one.
                    persuasive evidence if one is not biased
                    Jewish mysticism rules out jesus as messiah and his death on the cross and atonement for sin.. therefore it is a cult and far from the right path. I suggest you drop it. It has already told you mistruths about the bible.

          2. 0
            Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            ______________________

            I'm a self-serving rationale?
            So far from the truth.

            So if someone is not of the Christian religion they are not of God? Is that what you're saying?

            Have you ever compared Yahshua's teachings and Paul's?
            They are totally opposite.

            The Apostles opposed Paul and that is why he always complained about them and ran down the ones who (As he states) claimed to be Apostles who thought they were better than Paul. (He was talking about the twelve real Apostles) He didn't want his followers to follow the twelve.

            1. 61
              Korky10posted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Okay I will jump in. Jesus suffered and died for our sin. There is no other way to be saved but through the work already done by Jesus Christ. Jesus is the only way. Any other way is denying and undermining what Jesus did for us on the cross.  All other religion will lead to eternity in Hell.

            2. MickeySr profile image87
              MickeySrposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Deborah,

              I'm not asserting that you are self-serving or rationalizing - I am talking about ideas, not people . . . I'm certainly not talking about you - I don't even know you.

              Jesus' and Paul's teaching are not at all "totally opposite" and the 12, who Jesus personally called to carry-on His work, did not oppose Paul - you are confusing parties refereed to in Scripture. Paul didn't want believers, followers of Jesus, to be seduced by the teaching of the false brothers . . . the Judaizers. At the time of Jesus Judaism had become corrupted, it was not promoting the coming of the Messiah as our hope but was promoting man's own efforts to keep the law of Moses as our hope . . . Jesus had regular confrontations with the pharisees over this very matter. This circumstance didn't end with the death of Jesus or the Pentecostal start of the NT church.

              There were many who accented to Jesus as the promised Messiah, but who still misunderstood that salvation was accomplished by Jesus' atonement and not by our own righteousness. Within the young church some were teaching that you came to God through Jesus but that you could only remain under God's favor through obedience. They were teaching Gentile converts to Christianity that they could only be true Christians if they first became good Jews . . . these men were called Judaizers.

              It is these men and their false teaching that Paul rejected not the 12, and it was these Judaizers and not the 12 who stood against Paul and His teaching. Paul met with James and Peter and others and they gave him the right hand of faith . . . Peter even urges Christian readers of his NT letter, in Scripture, to heed Paul's teaching.

              Deborah, I have compared Jesus' teaching with Paul's, I was not raised a Christian I came to it exactly through my own private study of the Scripture . . . I'm not following what I was raised to believe, I'm not following what some church teaches me, I'm not following any man - I understand the Scripture as I read it and God revealed His truth to me.

              I understand the confusion, many who identify themselves as Christians are confused on this as well - there are passages that do seem to suggest contradictions and teaching that seems to conflict to other teaching, and the easiest solution may appear to be to simply take Jesus and reject Paul. However, this is no real solution at all. If you consider the history, the culture of the time, the false teachings prominent, etc, the actual true solution to the seeming difficulty is not so hard to understand. I mean, look, even Jesus' 12, the apostles that He chose and trained, were themselves still fully confused after all they witnesses - after His death, just as Jesus was ascending, His 12 asked "Will you now restore the kingdom to Israel?" . . . it took the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost and the special call and teaching of Paul, by God, to set forth the truth . . . it's not about the kingdom of Israel, it';s not about keeping the law, it's not about our own righteousness - it's about the sacrifice of Jesus, His atonement, and God's grace.

              1. brotheryochanan profile image60
                brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                exactly bro

                There was contention about Jesus brings salvation but to be truly saved you must obey the LAW of Moses.
                Paul fought against this his whole life.
                There is no mixing the Mosaic law with christianity. The law is done away with in Christ. Christianity is Jesus - God incarnate.

            3. 61
              Korky10posted 5 years ago in reply to this

              John very clearly indicates that Peter was to shepherd Jesus' sheep. In addition, Jesus indicated that Peter was to glorify God by being crucified. If one rejects Peter, one must also reject the apostle John and his gospel.

              In the Acts of the apostles, Luke proclaims that Paul was chosen directly by Jesus Christ as an apostle. By rejecting Paul, one must also reject Luke's book of Acts and the gospel of Luke. Therefore, by logic, one would have to reject all four gospels of Jesus Christ, as written by the apostles. In addition, by rejecting the grace of God, one must reject the entire Old and New Testament, since there are hundreds of examples of the unmerited grace of God.

              If one rejects the doctrine of grace, he must be able to answer the following questions from Paul:

              Why did Messiah Jesus die? As Paul said, "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly." (Galatians 2:21)
              The next question is likewise from Paul. "This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?" (Galatians 3:2)
              Paul had a knack for getting to the point of the gospel. The third question is also from Paul. "Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" (Galatians 3:3)
              Many who reject the gospel of grace do so because they think that they can please God on the basis of their own works of the flesh. This amounts to simple pride, which God abhors. Included below are some of the things the Lord has led me to, that all might accept His grace and trust Him with our sanctification.

              1. brotheryochanan profile image60
                brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Nicely done!
                rated up!

        2. brotheryochanan profile image60
          brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Gimme one good example of a false doctrine by Brother Paul please

          1. 0
            Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            __________________

            I have already written a hub on the differences of Yahshua and Paul's teaching. You even tried to post an insult on my hub.

            1. 61
              Korky10posted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Acts 26:9
              I (Paul) verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth.
              Paul did think about it often and acted on that desire to destroy Yahshua's influence and become a stumbling block to those who sought God.

              Paul was obviously referring to his life prior to his conversion.  Get a grip, of reality. There is no other source of authority than the full infallible word of God. All other attempts to understand life is made up with no substance. A life void of God will land you in Hell.  God loves you, and your free will is the only human part of you that can keep you out.

              1. 0
                Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                ________________

                You do not have permission to copy and use my material.

                You get a grip and study. He opposed all the teachings of Yahshua and the Apostles.

                He even admitted he lied

                Instead of arguing, why don't you read what Paul taught

              2. 61
                Korky10posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Not arguing. Just pointing out the stupid idea using that verse completely out of text.

                1. 0
                  Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  ____________

                  I didn't use it out of context. And be careful who you call stupid

                  1. 61
                    Korky10posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Paul was saying how the Jews were opposing Jesus and how he had done the same before his conversion. This is hardly saying he was contemplating going against Jesus   Yes a stupid misuse of scipture

              3. brotheryochanan profile image60
                brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Acts 26:9   I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth.
                  Acts 26:10   Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.
                  Acts 26:11   And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.

                Obviously Paul was talking about his time PRIOR to his conversion. Paul did not have this kind of power after his conversion, matter of fact, he was jobless from the damascus experience onward - except to preach the gospel.

                1 Corinthians 15:1   Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

                  1 Corinthians 15:2   By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
                  1 Corinthians 15:3   For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
                  1 Corinthians 15:4   And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

                  1 Corinthians 15:5   And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
                  1 Corinthians 15:6   After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
                  1 Corinthians 15:7   After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
                  1 Corinthians 15:8   And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one BORN OUT OF DUE TIME.
                  1 Corinthians 15:9  FOR I AM THE LEAST OF THE APOSTLES, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
                  1 Corinthians 15:10   But by the grace of God I am what I am

                Dig Paul for what he is
                Respect

            2. brotheryochanan profile image60
              brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              didn't do much good did it

              1. 0
                Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                ____________
                Yes many saw where he was false after they read my hub.

                Those who do not have eyes to see, or ears to hear, are reprobates
                and not of God.

                1. 61
                  Korky10posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  I am glad you understand yourself

                2. brotheryochanan profile image60
                  brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  those who are weak in knowledge might accept your false claims that are so totally out of context.

            3. Jerami profile image79
              Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Do you mind giving the mame of that hub, to make it easier to find?        I would be interested in reading it.

              1. 0
                Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                ________________________

                Not all the differences are noted but a lot are.

                Apostle Paul Vs Yahshua Messiah's Teaching

  21. Jerami profile image79
    Jeramiposted 5 years ago

    Why do people say that the NT church began in the first century?
      The NT church didn't exist until the New Testament (Bible) was constructed in 326 AD.
       All opposition to this church and its doctrine was eliminated one way or another.
       
       To the victor go the spoils.

       A person can believe in God and Jesus and NOT agree with everything that this church said was TRUTH. 
       I'm sure all of those other churches which were destroyed, taught some truths that this one rejected.

       Kinda like today, there were many different denominations until the Roman Empire constructed one, and eliminated the rest.

       If the same thing were to happen today; everyone would say that no one but the devil would do such of a thing.

        Think about it; ....... 
     


    Why do people say that the NT church began in the first century?
      The NT church didn't exist until the New Testament (Bible) was constructed in 326 AD.
       All opposition to this church and its doctrin was eleminated one way or another.
       
       To the victor go the spoils.

       A person can believe in God and Jesus and NOT agree with everything that this church said was TRUTH. 
       I'm sure all of those other churches which were destroyed, taught some truths that this one rejected.

       Kinda like today, there were many different denominations until the Roman Empire constructed one, and eleminated the rest.

       If the same thing were to happen today; everyone would say that no one but the devil would do such of a thing.

        Think about it; .......

    1. brotheryochanan profile image60
      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Many many many people have

      and you are just completely and totally and utterly wrong

      1. Jerami profile image79
        Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        What exactly in my statement is utterly wrong?

        1. brotheryochanan profile image60
          brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Hi jerami.
          sorry for the delay.
          I thought i should research some more just to be sure.

          Why do people say that the NT church began in the first century?

          Because it did and it continued until the 5th century however it was a small number by then. The ephesus church did have its candlestick removed as per Rev 1 and eventually all of them did.

          You see a church, like a company, or a country or nation is only as strong as its leader. This is why i have said that after adam fell all the inhabitants of the garden were kicked out... because this is what happened to the early church.. the good leaders died and the not so good ones followed and eventually false doctrine became their bane.

          All opposition to this church and its doctrine was eliminated one way or another.
          It was false doctrine that brought the demise. Much of Gnosticism ruined the pure path. It was not so much persecution, persecution spread the word to, eventually, the british isles.
          God tried so hard to eliminate all the false ways that people thought would bring them to him or him to them. In the OT he had them killed and since my research i wish it had been this way again.
          False doctrine.
          And so many people could care about the narrow way.

          I offer you an apology. My harshness was unfounded. You are not utterly wrong. So Sorry!

  22. Samuel Songungou profile image61
    Samuel Songungouposted 5 years ago

    Im a christian so i know what christianity is all about. I know the fact that Jesus Christ is the only and only true God...other religions are not real. One day you will see.

    But, as a responsible person we should not discriminate others based on religion.we shold tolerate all religions.

    1. Bharatthapa profile image60
      Bharatthapaposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Okay fine, i'll wait.. =P

      (My sincere apologies to you all but that sounds weird when we just talk about ourselves ...are you guys some sort of missionary or working for them??)

      I don't respect them who convert their religion because they lose faith from their own religion, someday he/she may lose it again.
      If you can't respect or favor the religion you're born with then i don't think you can respect any other, though i am not a religious person but i personally feel this. =/

      1. Bharatthapa profile image60
        Bharatthapaposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        ..and PEACE.

        I have read little bit bible (not much) but i did see "passion of the christ" (i am not sure how close to the reality that movie is, but i did cry(maybe i was too young at that time when i was released) when i saw "Lord Christ" suffering and felt bad for whatever had happened with him but again i'd stick with my words "RESPECT YOUR OWN RELIGION, IF YOU REALLY WANNA RESPECT OTHER."

        1. Bharatthapa profile image60
          Bharatthapaposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          typo-" when it was released"***

    2. Chaotic Chica profile image84
      Chaotic Chicaposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Actually, Samuel, if you want to get techinical regarding the word of God as stated in the Bible, God's name has been hotly debated for generations upon generations but Jesus was not God, Jesus was his son, born to the virgin Mary to be the sole human living to be pure, free of sin, so that he may sacrifice his life for ours to balance the evil which Eve and Adam partook of.  Jesus Christ, being the son of God, is not God Himself, nor is he the holy ghost.  Proof of this is where Jesus first follows his Father's will to be baptised by the Holy Ghost in the river.  If Jesus was God he would not need baptising and if he were the Holy Ghost he would not be baptising himself.

      1. aka-dj profile image79
        aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Interesting twist.

        However, this contradicts the scriptures, VERY clearly.

        Jesus was sentenced to death by the Sanhedrin for the VERY claim you deny!

        Hebrews 1;1 Long ago God spoke many times and in many ways to our ancestors through the prophets. 2And now in these final days, he has spoken to us through his Son. God promised everything to the Son as an inheritance, and through the Son he created the universe. 3The Son radiates God’s own glory and expresses the very character of God, and he sustains everything by the mighty power of his command. When he had cleansed us from our sins, he sat down in the place of honor at the right hand of the majestic God in heaven. 4This shows that the Son is far greater than the angels, just as the name God gave him is greater than their names.
        Also confirms WHO Jesus IS.

        1. Chaotic Chica profile image84
          Chaotic Chicaposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Um, "...he sat down in the place of honor at the right hand of the majestic God in heaven..".  That actually proves my point that his son, Jesus Christ is NOT, read NOT GOD HIMSELF.  Is he powerful? Yes.  Is he great? Yes.  Is there anything, anywhere that says that God HIMSELF has actually died therefore enacting his inheritance upon his son? NO.  I

          I try to be fairly neutral about things but if you are going to argue with me, at least make sure that you don't prove my point further {debating 101}.  I have been studying the {VERY contradictory Bible since I was a little girl. I have studied under the Catholics, the Protestants, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Baptists, the Assembly of God, the Lutherans, the Mormans, and even with several of the Jewish persuasion as well as highly educated scholars.  I do not need to 'quote the scriptures' to prove my points, anybody could grab a Bible and spit out a psalm or a scripture, but the trick is understanding it in every conceivable way. 

          It was said that Christians should gather (it does not give a specific day but Sunday was chosen as the last day of the world's creation was His day of rest) and wherever two or more are gathered in His name, He shall be there.  Along those lines I have also found it amusing to note that among the ten commandments (which are basically just common sense guidelines), he states that 'thou shalt not worship false idols' and yet the Catholics, among others, have insisted on doing just that by their creation of Saints and even the Pope himself.  How greatly do people worship him and others! 

          The bottom line is that people have read the Bible, interpreted it to their liking and called it religion.  Other religions that do not 'jive' as it were with their own are often labled as cults.  If people would simply learn to be tolerant and humble a huge portion of the problems of this world would be solved.  In realtiy, though the bible strongly advocates for such virtues, a non-religious person can exhibit such behavior and still be good.

          1. aka-dj profile image79
            aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            One more scripture for you.
            John 1;1 In the beginning [b] God was the Word, and the Word became flesh".

            God Himself took upon Himself flesh, and dwelt among (us) men.

            Plain enough?

            1. Chaotic Chica profile image84
              Chaotic Chicaposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Actually, no.  Not when you consider that in Genesis it shows that He lived among men, it was Him who told Cain that he shall be marked so that he should not be harmed while he was to roam for his sin of murder.  That was not Jesus, he would not walk among us for many, many years to come.

              1. brotheryochanan profile image60
                brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                sitting means: the job is finished and now its time for rest. What do we do after we finish a job, we sit down. It means to stop working the job is done.
                Jesus job is done.
                on the right hand: obviously God is spirit and very huge so where would this right hand be? God has no hands. Hands are what takes and gives. Hands have power: the right hand is the prominent hand. It takes and gives with authority.
                Jesus rested from his work with power and authority.
                Now consider that jesus, raised in earthly body
                1 Corinthians 15:53   For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
                then put on incorruption, immortality
                and rested from work with power and authority

                There is much persuasive evidence in the bible, especially the gospel of john as to God in jesus.
                Paul said the fullness of the godhead bodily
                Jesus when he rebuked the sea and wind did not pray to God, Jesus just said 'stop' this is different from the OT when they offered on an altar or prayed that God would do whatever. But jesus just did it on his own.
                thats deity.
                the many references of I am.
                Jesus forgiving sin, only God can do that.
                Jesus often says there is no difference between him and God.
                Jesus was sinless, only god can do that.. there have been many holy men of God, but each had their own sin(s)
                Jesus said he came down from heaven, but that is because God dwelt in him fully.
                Jesus used Abba to speak of God, in jewish terms this denotes intimacy between father and son and that had never been heard of before in relation to God and it wasn't the point of the OT either. God is a majestic being, full of awe and fear but jesus is saying something altogether different, God is his father, that he is intimate with God. Okay you might think well as his Son he should have intimacy, BUT, who can institute a new covenant with God? This is jesus rising above the father and negotiating legal contract with Israel. That's unprecedented.
                Jesus used Amen before his sentence. Which is saying I am verifying that what i am saying is true. In judaic times the testimony of two or three witnesses verified something. Jesus is saying, i speak of myself. Something again that raises himself above his father. The Son is always obedient to the the father and never usurps him.
                Jesus accepted worship, which is a big jewish no no. Not even angels are to be worshiped. One told Daniel to stand up the angel did not want worship. Jesus is lifting himself above the angels now.

                There is so much more stuff that persuasively evidences Jesus deity that this post could get hugely long.

                At the end of that list i would go as far to purport to you that since the jews lost the name of God and basically did not have one for Him, besides the superstitious belief that no one can pronounce the name of God, God gave them a new name to call him by and that name is Jesus.

          2. brotheryochanan profile image60
            brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            "Is there anything, anywhere that says that God HIMSELF has actually died therefore enacting his inheritance upon his son? NO."
                 YES
            3 things are necessary for a transaction of inheritance:
            1) there must be a will = bible
            2) there must be a recipient = Jesus
            3) there must be a death = cross

            "If people would simply learn to be tolerant and humble a huge portion of the problems of this world would be solved"
                 Tolerance is often not effective in this world. Ghandi for example. Protesting has often shaken governments and saved wild species of animals.
            Tolerance in the bible is rare and when it is applied all hell has broken out. You see, people by habit rely on their own understanding to interpret the bible and this is evident most prominently by catholicism, as you well stated they do things that are non scriptural. Now how did you come to notice that these things were not according to scripture, by reading scripture. Kudos. People who read the bible and pray for understanding or really want the bible to convince them of what is right and wrong get this sort of revelation, but those who have bias or agendas and have not this desire for biblical truths, end up making their own conclusions and purporting wrongness. The purpose of the spirit is to reveal the word of God but that is not even a blanket situation, the person has to need to want to be taught by that spirit, which is God, and not be about their own criteria.
                  The reading of scripture is paramount in being able to know what is acceptable and what is not. As per, tolerance, we look to the book of Joshua and we see that upon entering the promised land there were battles aplenty and God told them not to be tolerant but to wipe them out, which they did not do, and thus, those same nations are a thorn in the side of Israel unto this very day. Harsh truth, but the ends sometimes does justify the means.
            Christians are to be tolerant in loving ways, which needs definition. The amount of love a person can show can only be given by the amount of love a person is able to give. Some people are not loving by nature, they are just nice and kind. Love wears many hats, sometimes being strict and enforcing, even disciplinary and sometimes looking the other way or turning the other cheek. Each person loves as each person is capable and that is between them and their relationship with God.
            So to be tolerant is fine but to be overly tolerant is not fine in fact it can be damaging. For instance someone walks toward a cliffs edge and we are tolerant of that persons path so much we say nothing, well the outcome is obvious. IF God were overly tolerant, Jesus would not have been here, israel may probably still be slaves in Egypt, i think you get my point.

            1. 0
              Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              _________________________

              So everyone but you are wrong? You cannot be taught because you know everything?

              The New Covenant says we will not need a teacher because those of God will have God’s words, laws etc written in their heart.

              We are to rely on our own walk with God.

              As we get closer to him, we understand his word more and more.

              If we never grow in truth, we’re not his.

              Please show me where it says the new covenant is that we are saved by grace.

              You’re adding to and taking away from the word.

              1. brotheryochanan profile image60
                brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                the laws written in our hearts refers to our conscience. God did not write the Mosaic laws on our hearts.

                saved by grace refers to repentance, jesus on the cross, what God will do to bless, his permission, his mercy. Grace refers to a lot of things but not the law of moses or the talmud.
                Gods entire whole complete work is full of grace.

                John 1:17   For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
                Acts 15:11   But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they
                Romans 3:24   Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
                Romans 5:2   By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
                Romans 5:17   For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ
                Romans 6:14   For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

                Romans 11:6   And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: 

                Its all Gods grace, we get nowhere except He allow it.
                Righteousness by the law is over. Righteousness by works is over.
                So what is left?
                Grace: the divine influence upon the heart
                We can't do the works, our own efforts won't make us sin      less
                Jesus said "without me you can do nothing" and he meant, on a daily basis. Jesus also said, remain "connected to the vine". Our connection to the vine is what merits Gods grace.
                Grace: permission to go forward
                We lean on Him to fulfill his will, its that relationship thing again, and His spirit in us enables us to do all things. Not our own good deeds which are called 'works', but him in us and through us.
                Remember Jeremiah how God said to Jeremiah, I have formed you from the womb. That's Gods grace. We think how could jeremiah have continued under the duress and pressure and personal loss. Gods grace.
                Recall, God chose his people not because they were many or great or the best people on the planet. This is Gods grace.

                Grace is not a new concept, but since people do not conform to the Mosaic law or the talmud laws or any written laws,

                [b] what else is there? [b]

                Jesus christ died for all human beings that whosoever should believe shall be saved.
                Its all Gods grace, which we believe by faith that we shall be saved and not perish.

                Galatians 2:21   I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

                I take nothing away from the word, you don't add enough

                1. 0
                  Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  _______

                  Again, Please show me where it says Grace is the new covenant.

                  Show me where Yahshua taught that faith saves us

                  Do not quote Paul Only Yahshua
                  This is a simple request

                  1. 61
                    Korky10posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Luke 18:10-14. How bout Luke 23:40-43. Oh and mathew 7:23. Jesus himself said in John 6:28-29 to a crowd that had gathered. They had asked him what work must they do that God requires. Jesus said "the work is this, to believe in the one he has sent".
                    The teaching is not just one verse that gives an understanding but many,and in combination of understanding scripture as a whole rather than just one verse.  To understand this, scripture says salvation is by grace alone least any man boast, and faith with out works is dead.  But put the two together along with you are a new person in Christ and then we have a understanding

                2. 0
                  Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  _______________

                  But where did Yahshua say it. You're quoting Paul and Luke again.

                  You can't find it can you.

                  Grace means mercy and God has always had mercy on us

                  1. brotheryochanan profile image60
                    brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    I'm gonna let you answer your own question

                    Without the Law, what remains?

      2. brotheryochanan profile image60
        brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        "If Jesus was God he would not need baptizing and if he were the Holy Ghost he would not be baptizing himself."

        Matthew 3:15   And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becomes us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

        Jesus, until his death was under the Law, which was abolished at his death on the cross.
        This new covenant, as prophesied: 
        Malachi 4:5   Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
           Matthew 11:12   And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.
          Matthew 11:13   For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
          Matthew 11:14   And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

        So john the baptist was part of this new covenant, he prepared the way. It is not unseemly that Jesus would adhere to Johns mission to "fulfill all righteousness".

        As flesh and blood, Jesus did need to be baptized. This is part of God humbling himself, God in Jesus and Jesus being sinless of course did not need to be baptized except that this baptism was part of the way that God instituted - even God does not sidestep his principles.

  23. Prblmchild31 profile image60
    Prblmchild31posted 5 years ago

    Rather then poke at religion no matter which kind it is. Why would you ask a question like that? It is such a stereo type. Like Melissa Barrett I am a christian also and do not agree either. In my opinion someone gave you a bad impression or missinformation to think we are that way. There are different types of people and beliefs. just because one church associated with that or act that way does not mean they are all that way.Im sorry if someone led you to believe that or hurt you in some way. I have friends of variety of religions including your anti- christ but I dont point fingers. Everyone is entitled to what they believe and how they interpret. Not "all" of them of that religion.

  24. Jerami profile image79
    Jeramiposted 5 years ago

    Micku St. wrote
    . . the trouble is Jesus didn't say spread the message "to all nations", He specifically identified that they were to go to "Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and the ends of the earth";

    ========= 
    me

    The problem is with translation ? The word that was translated as earth had a number of meanings. I don't think that it was ever (origionaly) intended to mean "the planet earth".

       For one example, Ezra 1:2   King Cyrus was given all the kingdoms of the EARTH. Did he really have dominion over the entire planet Earth?

    1. Bharatthapa profile image60
      Bharatthapaposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I have had enough of my part of share, i am outta here. Man this is a never ending topic. =/ and nothing productive.

  25. Jerami profile image79
    Jeramiposted 5 years ago

    The best that I can understand about what happened at the council of Nicea was that they argued about a lot of the little stuff.......   while  somebody was getting away with some bigger stuff.

       If ya know what I mean?

  26. Jerami profile image79
    Jeramiposted 5 years ago

    I do believe in the God of Abraham, and that Jesus was the Messiah as prophesied;  but I do have doubts as to whether or not there was some schanigans going on in 326 AD.

        After all, the Emperor was ultimate authority over the church for almost a century.

        I'm pretty sure that the Emperor got something out of the deal.

       Just saying it like it was.
       Every body gets to figure out-of- that what they want to.

  27. amazonrus profile image68
    amazonrusposted 5 years ago

    Is the Bible really the word of God? if so, why are there so many editions of it? Did Man edit it and improve the original word of God?

    Unlike the Holy Quran, it has never been changed for the past 1400 years. Thus making it a miracle.

    1. brotheryochanan profile image60
      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      An unchanged book does not constitute a miracle.

      Many books are unchanged. Snow white and the 7 dwarves. Harry potter etc.

      What makes the bible unique this way is either
      man has striven for more accuracy
      or man has striven to make it more untrue

      Both are correct

      as for the quran not being changed there probably is a death penalty for those that do attached somewhere.

  28. TheMagician profile image91
    TheMagicianposted 5 years ago

    I'm a Christian Agnostic myself (a bit oxymoronic, I know) and I certainly don't think that everyone else is wrong. I do wonder why most Christians (especially hardcore Catholics) feel that everyone else is wrong too, but I figure it's just what they've been brought up to believe. It still does amaze me how closed minded they can be, and not just even them though... anyone of any religion.

    A lot of Christians tell me that I'm going to hell because I'm "Christian Agnostic". The reason I claim C/A is because while I follow the Christian faith and the belief in the Christian god blindly, I know that I might very well be wrong and that there very well might not be a God. Nobody knows the answer for sure. I do not know what is real, but I believe. I'm also a huge fan of Buddhism, really.

    But of course, that is my opinion and my beliefs. I am not right, although in some ways I can imagine them being justifiable. What matters to me as a Christian, and just as a good human being, is to love everyone, respect everyone's thoughts and beliefs (although I have a hard time with this when it comes to hatefulness), and advocate human rights.

    Everyone is different though smile

    1. brotheryochanan profile image60
      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Then you will get what you expect.

      Mixing and matching to create a self styled God doesn't work in nuclear reactors either.
      One does not sit down and put together a nuclear reactor and expect it to work. The same for many other things to.
      God has gone through a lot of work to make his path known.
      We need to let the bible convince us and then come to God by the way the bible says too. ( as in the OT there was one way, and the NT is jesus christ)
      As to many people saying there is one way, there is and it is narrow not wide, man made or imagined.

      1. TheMagician profile image91
        TheMagicianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Are you saying that it's bad then? I can't quite understand where you're coming from. As for the bible, I don't let it dictate me and my choices. I've read it, I've taken the good parts out of it (love thy neighbor, accept everyone, etc.) and have applied them to life, but there's certainly quite a lot of stuff in there that I don't believe in or follow (mainly the whole gay thing being wrong, but again it's my opinion). I look at it as a basic life-guide. For starters, somewhat.

        1. brotheryochanan profile image60
          brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          The bible gives good advice for living this life in the flesh, but Jesus is the central character, not tony robbins. Its good to pick and choose what one can do today, in other words, what one aspires to retain and practice, but Jesus points a way to God, not just a way to live this life.
          If we only do part of what the good news proclaims and leave out God as the central focus point, we drop the ball or strike out, even, miss the point.
          There may have been other mystics roaming around, but Jesus consistently denied his own ability and made straightforward mention that God was responsible for everything he did, unlike the others who made themselves to be something great.

  29. Jerami profile image79
    Jeramiposted 5 years ago

    My feeble old mind can't remember all those Chapter # & verses #s, that I do still remember the context of...  sorry.  But I do remember a number of places in the OT where God promises that when the person turns away from their sins that they are forgiven.

       Makes me wonder??  Did Jesus die for those that didn't repent?

       Was I not forgiven, way back around 30 AD for sins that I committed in 1967?

       I was forgiven before I even did the dastardly deed (?);  and before I repented (?).

       Does that mean that it is OK for me to do it some more? Heaven forbid, NO!

       Don't we remember how much those things distracted us from the path that we should have traveled?  How much hurt they caused ourselves and others?  We just don’t know what we don’t know concerning where we would be today had we not done those things. We have already punished ourselves in ways that we know not.

       The point I was making is that repentance has always been a way to obtain salvation.
       Jesus didn't invent it.
       Which brings up the question; (again)  why did Jesus die on the cross;  If not to save the non-repentant also?
      Just a question.

        I have not bought into this idea, and I haven't shot it down out of the tree either.  I’m just looking at it.

        Is it not also a sin to judge harshly, someone else for doing that which I used to do?
    And if I keep on doing just that, did Jesus die on the cross for this sin of which I may not know that I do?

       I don't know?  I guess I'm just rambling on.

       By;  gotta go off doing something else for a while.
    .

    1. brotheryochanan profile image60
      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Jesus died for those that repent.
      It was john the baptists message
      and jesus followed up on it.

      christians are in a different category. We have repented of our past sins. We do repent of our daily sins and if we do not repent for sins then we are backsliding - that means we are not caring enough to notice our sins and deal with them and eventually we can be fully backslidin, which means unrepentant.
      But we do not lose our reward unless we become atheist.

      Once repentant we enter into the kingdom and by sincere effort we become more christian and deeper into the kingdom.
      30 fold, 60 fold and 100 fold.

      Jesus died for all... who believe in him... not for those who don't.
      There is no universal salvation except by way of the cross of christ. Those who ignore the cross, well lets say its the same as offering strange fire on an altar in the OT.

      1. Jerami profile image79
        Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks for your earlier reply.
        I could be wrong  (sure I am somewhat)  but I think that there are but a few misunderstandings in the overall philosophy held by religion..

          One, I believe, is that "The Kingdom" of God is a different level than that of heaven and they each have different requirements for maintaining a position in them.
           Such as the 144000 sinless followers of Christ which is said to be Ruptured.
        Never a foul word came out of their mouths.
        Never have they been with a woman (sexually) etc. etc.

        I think that these 144000 will attain a higher level than I or anyone else who have to be cleansed of our sins.

           Kinda like a brand New shirt in my closet hangs on a different rack than those others which have been worn and washed. Sometimes I wear a new shirt only once before I throw it away ... IF I got too much grease on it!
           Good thing I'm not God ...  or a shirt.

          I know this sounds crazy  (cause I very well may be)  I'm going to post it anyway.

        1. TheMagician profile image91
          TheMagicianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I've never thought about it like that. Very good thought! Gives you something to really think about, doesn't it?

        2. DoubleScorpion profile image87
          DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          The 144,000 in Revelation are the 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. It is the multitude(so many that can't be counted) in White Robes that would be the rest of us.

          1. TheMagician profile image91
            TheMagicianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            White was never my color. Shame.

          2. Jerami profile image79
            Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            DoubleScorpion  ....

            The 144,000 in Revelation are the 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. It is the multitude(so many that can't be counted) in White Robes that would be the rest of us.

            =============

              I could be wrong? But this is my opinion and it makes perfect sense to me.   I have been trying to prove this concept wrong for over a decade and am unable to do it.

              This has always been a major issue for me, that those that are seen under the alter; and are given white robes and told to wait yet a "Little Season" are told this when the fifth seal was opened. and before the seventh.
              Before the trumpets and the bowls.
              I have to believe that these that are seen under the alter are the same as the Children of Daniels people, discussed in Daniel 12:1.

              However; through out the book of Daniel, he has visions of there only being four kingdoms to be given dominion over that Hebrew peoples.

              When Daniel chapter eleven begins,  the second kingdom currently has control over Israel and Judea.
              The eleventh chapter describes how Persia loses power to Greece, and then how Greece loses this power to the fourth kingdom (the Roman Empire).

               And THEN, the little horn, the king that rises up to power, after the first ten kings, replacing three kings (three kings after the first ten)

              When the 14th emperor of the Roman Empire  (fourth beast) comes to his end ; Daniel 11:45  and 12:1   AT  THAT time Michael stands up for the children of Daniels people and some are redeemed from among men and many from the graves.

               I do not believe that this is the first resurrection, but it is the first offering. It was common to give the first fruits unto the Lord, and then the Harvest, and then gleening of the fields. 
             
              I feel that chapter 11 and 12:1 are absolutely TIME specific.

               This does not reveal beforehand; the year month or day that this is to happen.
               
              But it does describe an event that is to happen, as a sign that; at some time in THEIR  future,(536 AD)  when this happens, the time has come.

              Hadrian was the 14 Emperor, and he died in 138 AD. 
              Hadrian was the "Little Horn"
              At this time there was no longer a nation of Israel.  Those prophesy which were given to these people were fulfilled at that time.
             
              The Nation of Israel had come to "Their" end of days as Jesus said that they would. The Hebrew people was carried away into the wilderness where she shall be feed there, hiding from the face of the Serpent for 1260 days.              These are prophetic days which are different than our days.
             
               But then again, this is just my opinion as to what I read when I read what is written.
               I don't think that I have interpreted anything in any way which disagrees with anything that Gabriel or Jesus is said to have said.
               Jesus did say "This generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled.  So in my mind everything fits inline with what Jesus and Gabriel said.

               No one wants to discard all of those interpretations of scripture which they have learned, which after much time passes; (many centuries)   ... somehow seems to have turned to stone.                                         As If these interpretations were written on stone tablets.   AS  IF ?
               
              I don't mean to be argumentative,  I just feel SSOooo  strongly about this.  And have many, many issues such as this.

            1. DoubleScorpion profile image87
              DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I am not going to dispute your thoughts or theories. I agree the Book of Revelations is taken from or quite simular to the vision talked about in the Book of Daniel.

              I was just pointing out what is mentioned in the book of revelations.
              Rev 7:4-8 the 144,000 of the 12 tribes.
              And Rev 7:9-17 explains those in white.

  30. 67
    paarsurreyposted 5 years ago

    You are a nice person; and a friend.

    Well, I never felt that one ever gave me any hard time; all are friends here and like one hub-family and we share our information with one another in a very friendly atmosphere.

    I like everybody; even the man in trouble; I mean "A Troubled Man"

  31. SpanStar profile image60
    SpanStarposted 5 years ago

    The idea of "live and let live" is a noble idea however for the Christian believer they have a purpose for spreading that message.  In the end only one religion will be right and if that religion winds up being the Christian faith then how bad it will have been if people didn't get the word that this was and is the only way to eternal life.

    Having said that it's still a matter of choice as to whether one wants to believe or not.

  32. indian cooking profile image50
    indian cookingposted 5 years ago

    It is not only Christians... but people belonging to all religions think that they are only one's who are right... The preachers and heads of those religions have spread such messages. Why can't people just leave the religion aside and be just good human beings?

  33. sharonchristy profile image80
    sharonchristyposted 5 years ago

    You say Christians accuse others and what  are you doing  yourself. It is all very well  to find faults with people. In my view, my Lord and yours whether you beleive it or not, in all  glory, laud and honor gave up all and bore excruciatinng pain, sorrow and betrayal all for his love of you and me. How can such love not make us vibrant, passionate and desperate to make you own it too. Christians have undergone crucification, been thrown to lions, borne every form of predjudice, punishment, persucution and massacres. What makes us so strong, all we all not the same human kind, its not us, its our Lord, Christ. We possess atleast a small degree greater than yours of other religions or myths, or whatever you want to call them and we want to show you the only true faith so you may be loved, cared for and heard as long as you live. God bless you and show you the true path soon. Amen.

  34. Jaime Brewise profile image61
    Jaime Brewiseposted 5 years ago

    Why is it that all you have to do to get 350 replies on a thread is post something with "Christian" in the title?

  35. Retrohawaii profile image59
    Retrohawaiiposted 5 years ago via iphone

    I think that is common among all religions and their perceptions of each other eg: Mormon v. Christians or JW v.Catholisisum

    1. Jerami profile image79
      Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I kinda think that that is common among people in general

  36. MickeySr profile image87
    MickeySrposted 5 years ago

    Personally, I think there are a couple of ideas all who participate in such a discussion would be wise to consider; first, what is my own disposition, what prompts me and informs, not my conclusion or arrived at view, but what informs my approach to investigation . . . what do I start with as I come to consider this matter? And secondly, am I objectively sure I am not practicing what I am quick, and even belligerent, to fault others for?

    On the first point; the charge is commonly aimed at Christians that they are either too unimaginative, lack the critical thinking required, or are too emotionally frail to escape the religion they were born into. That is the starting point for many who engage in his debate, basically, many begin their argument from the already established in their own head position that they are smarter and more bold, etc, then any Christian specifically because they themselves are not Christian. Before any evidence, argument, or reason is considered the Christian is addressed as a buffoon because he actually believes all the foolishness the non-believer is smart and bold enough to have escaped.

    Yet, while the non-believer faults the Christian for merely believing whatever he's been taught to believe, while the picture is painted of an emotionally weak intellectual incompetent based solely on the conclusion he's come to, no corresponding argument is set forth from the Christian that the unbeliever is merely acting-out his departure from the authority of his parents home, that he is seeking to define his individual persona by a knee-jerk rebellion of whatever ideas defined the home and culture he is trying to escape from. The unbeliever too often starts out, before any evidence, argument, or reason is considered, with the assumption that his view is the view that results from critical reasoning and the Christian view is arrived at specifically because of the lack of critical thinking - he assumes from the concluded idea (not any actual deliberation over argument and reason) that he is the smart one, the emotionally sound one, the one who has honestly and objectively thought about all this . . . while the Christian is the guy who just believes whatever he's told, because he's dumb and scared.

    And this leads to the second point, faulting others for the very thing you are doing; the title of this forum is "Why do Christians think everyone else is wrong"? . . . the title suggests that Christians have too unyielding a confidence that they are right and others are wrong - this very same assertion can just as reasonably be made for many unbelievers, read over many of the posts here, many unbelievers approach is simply that they are right and they know the Christian is wrong. Often the unbeliever is demeaning and dismissive toward the Christian - something he would declare to be offensive were the Christian to be aiming such conduct at a Hindu or Muslim, etc.

    As much as many Christians, unbelievers too engage in a debate along the lines that they just know they're right and the Christian is obviously wrong, and that the Christian is wrong because he's not as smart and bold and emotionally stable, etc, as the unbeliever imagines himself to be. The unbeliever regularly faults the Christian for the very kind of conduct that he seems to deem legitimate for himself - why . . ? . . because he starts out with the premise that the conclusion, that the other fellow is a Christian, indicates that he himself is the smart and bold one and the other fellow is just stupid to see things differently - as in "Why do unbelievers assume Christians are just wrong"?

    Of course, many unbelievers will say they have gone all over this before, they will frequently assert that they themselves were Christians but now know better, and they will often recast some popular but poor scholarship they have scanned or have some cursory familiarity with (the Bible's been altered so many times, that nasty Constantine, etc), but the end result is, they don't think they need to actually consider anything the Christian presents to them, their mind is made up, they know they're right . . . but again, that is the shortcoming the title of this forum aims at Christians.

    I was not raised a Christian, I do not follow along with whatever I'm told, I have a good working mind, I don't want to believe anything but what is the truth, I have examined the evidence and with critical reasoning come to the understanding that I have . . . I don't think I'm right and everyone else is wrong, I think we are all wrong in different ways and to varying degrees and I am always eager to better my understand o objective truth and easily and happily believe I can learn from anybody. That is why I tend to back out of these discussions - it becomes grievous and dull to try to talk with someone who isn't honestly listening because he's already made-up his mind and knows that he is right and you are not only wrong but are wrong because your too dumb to see things just the way he does all the while he is blind to the reality that he is practicing the very anti-reason approach he faults others for.

    1. Druid Dude profile image60
      Druid Dudeposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      The implication is: That Christians think every one else is wrong. Even separate denominations think all others are barkin' at the moon. Atheists think everyone else is wrong. Hindus think everyone else is wrong, Buddhists think everyone else is wrong, as do Democrats and Republicans. Personally, The truth has yet to be determined. Agnosticism is at the very least, honest.

      1. TheMagician profile image91
        TheMagicianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        This is incredibly true.

      2. MickeySr profile image87
        MickeySrposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I sort of agree - everyone, even agnostics, think everyone else is wrong . . . however, I cannot ignore the course these discussions almost always seem to go; everyone thinks they are right and others are wrong (or else they would drop their view and take-up the one they did think was right) . . . but we all really know that the Christians really are wrong and that they are especially ugly to think they are right, and that they're wrong because they're dumb and fearful and willing to believe whatever they're told, etc.

        For many folks, anything could and might possibly be right, except orthodox, historic, boring old Christianity - that's the one thing that cannot be tolerated. Hinduism, Islam, Voodoo, anything should be respected and recognized as of cultural significant . . . even some mutilated form of Christianity is ok, Christianity with only part of the Bible, Christianity but not any church, Jesus but no Paul, Christianity but with the gnostic texts included, etc, etc.

        The West has, admittedly, turned Christianity into yet another corrupt man-made religion largely void of the spiritual reality authentic Christianity is defined by, but the answer isn't to puff yourself (whoever) up with an arrogance that you're smart and bold enough to escape that false Amerivangleism and then aim your contempt at anyone who identifies themselves a Christian - there are Christians who are Christians, not because they're not smart enough or too weak to consider other ideas, but are Christians because they have gone to the texts and studied the historic record and have examined all ideas honestly and thoroughly. Yet they are talked to, often by boobs, who think the mere fact that they are Christians indicates that they are simply not as smart and bold and free-thinking and honest with the facts, etc, as themselves.

        I enjoy vigorous debate and the consideration of ideas - but it gets a bit tiring to hear the same repeated lame arguments presented to you like a brilliant guy has just blown your frail little mind because you've never considered any of this before - and all the while you know you're talking to someone whose argument is against a 'Christianity' that have done more vigorous and passionate battle with than they ever will and that they don't even know what authentic Christianity is . . . as they talk to you like they're the critical thinking smart one and you're too dumb to know that nobody believes that anymore.

        1. TheMagician profile image91
          TheMagicianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Well agnostics don't really think everyone else is "wrong", per say... it's just they (and I) are able to admit that they don't know the truth, and that anything is possible.

          1. MickeySr profile image87
            MickeySrposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I understand that - however, that means agnostics, at least passively if not actively, think those who believe you can know the truth and that they know it are wrong.

            1. TheMagician profile image91
              TheMagicianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Good point. As a Christian Agnostic myself, I do not believe those who think they CAN know the truth are wrong, but I do think those who think they DO know the truth are.

              1. MickeySr profile image87
                MickeySrposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                May I ask, is that based on personal experience? I mean, if you think one can know the truth but say that those who assert they do know the truth you think do not, are you saying that you've yet to meet anyone who you think might know the truth - or are you saying man owns the capacity to know the truth but circumstances (or whatever) make his calling upon that capacity impossible? Like, do you think there could be some out there who do know the truth and you've just not come across them yet, or are you just saying that theoretically our minds can apprehend the truth but circumstances disable or make unusable that capacity?

                1. TheMagician profile image91
                  TheMagicianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Part of me believes that, hey, there just might be one person who really does know the truth, but I'm not sure. I also do wonder if we could possibly know the truth, but maybe our minds just cannot handle it? Who knows.

                  1. MickeySr profile image87
                    MickeySrposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Personally, I take this puzzle as favorable toward Christianity . . . the starting point for Christianity is revelation - Christianity advances that man cannot know God, that man is a material creature existing in time and space while God is the infinite spirit existing in eternity, so that if man is to know anything about God then God is going to have to condescend to reveal Himself because man could not own a capacity to discover or figure Him out. And of course, that is what Christianity asserts itself to be, it is God's own revelation of His truth to man.

                  2. brotheryochanan profile image60
                    brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Being Christian is actually not based on how much truth we know or who knows it all, indeed much knowledge can actually be a snare to the Christian with pride being the trap.
                    Christianity is based upon Peoples Personal Relationship with God through Jesus Christ. As the Christian seeks God, God will be found and upon finding God certain requirements will be asked by God that the Christian adhere too. (no its not a check list of the OT Law - This is why Paul said, "let every person be convinced in their own mind what is right and wrong" - I may despise TV and another Christian watches it, who am i to demand he toss the TV or make him feel guilty for watching it - its everyones personal relationship, walk with God. God knows what He wants to do with each Christian life and He is in charge).
                    Along the 'time well spent', in 'The Way', the Christian will learn things, unlearn things, make errors and repent, grow and mature - this may take an entire lifetime. Abraham, for example, was 87 when promised his seed will be as the stars and 100 yrs old when isaac was born. Did Abraham 'ace' this span of 13yrs. No he did not, but OVERALL, he did and since Abraham remained in 'The Way' he received the promise of God when mans carnal logic dictated otherwise.
                    So looking for one person with the truth can be a stumbling block as each Christian has their own truths according to their ability to handle such truths. So as people may be exposed to a variety of Christian 'truths', these truths should not be seen as a negative thing if they are contrary because truth is individually perceived and class is always open in the Christian school of life.

              2. brotheryochanan profile image60
                brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                And this is the problem when God is removed from the equation.
                There is this NOT knowing.
                My God is not so small that he does not make himself known.

        2. 61
          Korky10posted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Fact of the matter is that someone is right and all others will pay the consequences.  You see it does not matter what you think or what I think for that matter.  There is no other logical answer to why we are here but in the bible.  The only book having stood the test of time for hundreds of years. There is not even a book that comes close to being a best seller after hundreds of years. Think about it?  Written by 40 authors over 1600 years. All agreeing!  The old testament all about law. Kind of like law today. You do the crime, you do the time. Then Jesus was born and being fully God, loved us so much he provided a way of salvation so we all could be saved. Not by works (all religion is man made "works" a paved road to Hell). But by grace he saved all who place their trust in him alone.  Please do not make ridicules statements that everyone can be right in what they believe.  There is no other source of any authority that can discredit the bible

  37. 59
    LORD ENKIposted 5 years ago

    The reason Cristians or anyone else for that matter would think there right and everyone else is wrong is NARROWMINDEDNESS and ARROGANCE.Most Christians have been thumped over the head with a bible(severly corrupted doctrine)so many times and from such a young age that is all they know.They dance on the celing with JESUS and forget that there are BILLIONS of others lots of them good people that have just as important belief systems as them!Myself I'm an existcenelist so i don't let them bother me!

    1. MickeySr profile image87
      MickeySrposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      . . . so, should I actually say  'I rest my case' . . ?

    2. 61
      Korky10posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Since we are all right, and I can believe what I want. Your also not so intelligent. Please so not respond or you will look like you think your right

  38. Jerami profile image79
    Jeramiposted 5 years ago

    does anyone undestand that we can intelectulize the life right out of a bird?    open it  up; looking for life, and not finding it cause, with the first insision; the quest was lost!

       If you are looking for the proof of life ;(?), you must look within. 
       Or, we will never find it.     Cause  over there is too far away.          God would not have hidden it way over there! where we could not find it?

      It is within our reach, no matter where we are.
      No matter where we think that will be; at some time in the future? ...  right or wrond? ...  that is where we are going to be!   Just wait and see???

       No matter what your problems are????   No matter how fast you travel; when you get there.  there you are! and your baggage follows soon after,

       Some day we are going to have to fess up!  Some day we are going to have to admitt to the truth.

        That is the way it is no matter what we think!

  39. LookingForWalden profile image60
    LookingForWaldenposted 5 years ago

    I skipped over a lot of the pages. Did anyone bring up that the bible we know was written over 200 years after the fact or the whole council of Nicea making Jesus divine?

    1. MickeySr profile image87
      MickeySrposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      You are stumbling over what many folks seem to stumble over regarding our apprehension of the reliability of what we find presented in the Bible . . . the complaint is, basically, the old telephone game. The oft repeated argument of so many is, 'how can we trust the Bible, certainly over the many centuries and the many revisions it has been altered again and again, and some men surely must have deliberately inserted or removed portions to support their own doctrines so as to control the people?', etc, etc. If you find the message of the Bible speaking to your heart as you read it, if you personally come to believe that it is God's own inspired word, that is a private acknowledgment of spiritual evidence - however, it can generally and publicly be demonstrated archaeologically, historically, and textually that the Bible we have today is virtually the same Bible that Christians originally had.

      Just briefly, to suggest the kind of documentation that exists:

      The earliest copies we have of any writings attributed to Aristotle are from over 1,400 years after Aristotle died - and we have 5 copies of copies of copies of texts. The earliest copies we have of any writings attributed to Pliny (a Roman historian) are from over 750 years after he died - and we have 7 copies of copies of copies of texts. The earliest copies we have of any writings attributed to Caesar are from over 1,000 years after he died - and we have 10 copies of copies of copies of texts.

      This theme continues all the way to Shakespeare, etc. Much of what we accept and teach as fact, based on historic evidence, is not nearly so overwhelmingly supported by the historic evidence as the textual reliability of the Bible. We have extant over 5,300 ancient Greek manuscripts and over 10,000 Latin Vulgates of the Bible, many within a mere 40 years after the originals were authored. In addition, we have extant letters, sermons, commentaries, etc, from 1st century men, men who were intimate students and companions of Peter and John, etc, and these various letters, sermons, commentaries, etc, contain enough quoted passages of Scripture to construct the entire New testament and nearly all of the Old Testament - and it is the same Bible text we have today. There is more solid evidence that the shepherd David became king of Israel, that Jesus rose from His grave alive, and that Paul wrote to the church at Rome exactly what our modern English translations say he wrote to the church at Rome, more solid evidence of these Biblical accounts than there is evidence that there even was an English playwright named 'Shakespeare'.

      1. LookingForWalden profile image60
        LookingForWaldenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        While I respect your opinions and beliefs I find nothing that supports your argument for the new testament. I am familiar with the dead sea scrolls and the Nag Hammadi Library. Neither validate your statement for the new testament. I can be incorrect as I am not an authority on the matter so I respectfully ask for your source on this information from a credible institution.

        1. brotheryochanan profile image60
          brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Bruce M Metzger: phd. New testament book author, in all 50 books either authored or edited. The New testament: Its background, growth and content; the Text of the New testament; The Canon of the New Testament; Manuscripts of the Greek Bible; Textual Commentary on the Greek NT; The Oxford Companion of the Bible; co-editor of The New Oxford Annotated Bible and general editor of the more than 25 volumes in the New Testament Tools and Studies. Masters degree from Princeton Theological Seminary and both a masters degree and a doctorate from Princeton University. Resident scholar at Tyndale House, cambridge. Currently professor emeritus at Princeton Theological Seninary after a 46yr career teaching the New Testament. Chairman of the New Revised Standard Version Bible Committee, a corresponding fellow of the British Academy, and serves on the Kuratorium of the Betus Latina Institute at the Monastery of Beuron, Germany. Past president of the Society of Biblical Literature, the International Society for New Testament Studies, and the North American Patristic Society.
          (begin quote)
          we have unical manuscripts, written in all capital Greek letters, about 306 of these as early as the third century. Codex Sinaiticus, which is the only complete New Testament in unical letters, Codex Vaticanus, not quite complete dating to about 350ad. Minuscule, roughly 800ad, 2,856 of these. Lectionaries, New testament Scripture in the sequence it was to be read in the Early Churches - 2,403 of these have been cataloged. Total of Greek manuscripts at 5,664.
          In addition to Greek manuscripts, 8,000 to 10,000 Latin Vulgate manuscripts, 8,000 in Ethiopian, Slavic and Armenian.
          In all about 24,000 manuscripts of the New Testament.
          "There is no body of ancient literature in the world which enjoys such a wealth of good textual attestation as the New Testament.
          (end quote)
          Sir Frederic Kenyon, former British Museum director and author of The Palaeography of Greek Papyri. Kenyon said "in no other case is the interval of time between the composition of the book and the date of the earliest manuscripts so short as in that of the New Testament".

          1. LookingForWalden profile image60
            LookingForWaldenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I'm sorry you did three days of research for no reason. If you read my post I was arguing about the books that were left out of the new testament.

            Here's a little gem for you while you go back to the drawing board.

            (31:17) "Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him."
            God sounds awesome in this.

            You should research Horus as well and find out why Jesus stole his whole story.

            1. 61
              Korky10posted 5 years ago in reply to this
              1. LookingForWalden profile image60
                LookingForWaldenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Again, I will not open a bible.creation.scienceandhistoryarewrong.com  website
                However I noticed you went three places down in your google search.

            2. brotheryochanan profile image60
              brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Dunno what your talking about
              31:17 means nothing with a book name

              You just wanted to know a source for New testament reliability and you got it. These are the kind of people i choose to obtain information from rather than some insipid atheist site.

              Why the big side step of topic, instead of just a thank you.

              I liked what MickeySr said and there's other and more corroborative facts about New Testament documentation and Early Church canon that very persuasively lead everyone to the summation that these documents are very well preserved and accurate.

              1. LookingForWalden profile image60
                LookingForWaldenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Again I don't know if it's done by a selfserving coincidence or a reading comprehension problem but you keep avoiding my argument and arguing against something I agree with.

  40. LookingForWalden profile image60
    LookingForWaldenposted 5 years ago

    I should also state that I agree the bible we see now is more or less unchanged for the past 2000 years.( I mean the slavery still there I would imagine they would have taken that out by now if they could have) It's more on the non canon scriptures that exist from the council.

    1. MickeySr profile image87
      MickeySrposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      What you replied to with "I respect your opinions and beliefs" were not by opinions or beliefs, they are the historic record . . . my opinion is that it is dishonest to discount the textual evidence and my belief is that the Bible is God's revelation of truth, but that the English Bible that we have today is a reliable version of what the original Christians had.

      However, I'm confused as to your position; first you say "I find nothing that supports your argument for the new testament" but then you say "I agree the bible we see now is more or less unchanged for the past 2000 years" . . . those are contradictory statements - what exactly do you find fault with, only and specifically that (as you suggest) The Council of Nicaea manufactured a new doctrine making Jesus divine?

      1. LookingForWalden profile image60
        LookingForWaldenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I'm sorry allow me to clarify my position further. I believe the text in the king James bible that form the new testament are, by and large unchanged from whenever they were written. When they were written I take issue with. Also the plethora of other scriptures not in the king James bible that exist I take issue with. Finally Jesus divinity from the council I take issue with.

        1. MickeySr profile image87
          MickeySrposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          LFW > When they were written I take issue with <

          Are you saying you don't believe the NT scriptures were authored by and when they assert themselves to be authored by and when - are you saying you count them to be counterfeit documents falsely ascribed to the apostles of Jesus? Or are you saying that the actual authorship of the apostles in the 1st century makes them incvalid as Scripture?

          LFW > the plethora of other scriptures not in the king James bible that exist I take issue with <

          Are you saying you disagree with the content of the gnostic texts and other ancient false 'Christian' writings as not divine revelation? I agree. Or are you saying you do not count other religious texts, like the Koran & Bhagavad Gita, to be authoritative Scripture? I agree. Or are you questioning what should and should not be included in the Christian Bible as Scripture?

          LFW > Jesus divinity from the council I take issue with <

          If you are here asserting that the Christian teaching that Jesus is God incarnate is a manufactured doctrine concocted at and by The Council of Nicaea, that is simply a poor, but, commonly poor reading of history. Imagine this scenario; say people on HubPages more and more began using the word "bullshit" and more and more some began to complain about it. Then suppose HubPages decided to have a big meeting to address the matter, and suppose they determined that the word "bullshit" is sometimes the only word that can properly express what it's intended to express and so they issue a formal notice that using the word "bullshit" is permissible on HubPages.

          If you would read their formal notice would you think HubPages just invented a new word and was now directing everyone to use it? The ancient church councils did not invent the ideas of Jesus' divinity or what books make-up the Bible, etc, etc - the ancient councils were called and tended to well established and commonly practiced teaching that some were regularly fussing about . . . the church had always taught the truth that Jesus is the God of all creation, the councils work was not to concoct a doctrine that was already commonly taught, their work was to denounce as heresy those who taught otherwise.

          The problem today is people starting out with an opinion, and an agenda, and then skimming through the historic record looking for items they can snatch-up to 'prove' what they already thought was right - for those who actually want to learn and to know what the real truth is, for those who read without an agenda, the conclusion of history is completely different, and undeniable.

          LFW > If you would like to address slavery in the bible as gods truth <

          The fact of slavery, the fact that it has existed throughout history is accurately recorded in the Bible - it is not "God's truth" that some men should be slaves to another in any sense that God approves of slavery . . . I'm not sure what you're asking here?

          1. LookingForWalden profile image60
            LookingForWaldenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            How do you explain the Nag Hammadi Library? More specifically the gnostic gospel of st Thomas.
            Even the discovery of the book of Mary.

            You completely skipped over the Arian debate. Which I guess is convenient, however, I can produce credible institutions where I get my facts from.

            I guess it's my turn to be confused.  What is the word of god?  Is it everything in the bible verbatim? Or are you picking and choosing?
            There are a lot more scriptures which can be quoted that show the bibles stance on slavery. 

            If you are to argue that slavery was mans idea or only accepted by man and not god, then you are admitting all of the bible is not gods word and is open for interpretation.

            1. MickeySr profile image87
              MickeySrposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I'm not sure what exactly to tell you about the gnostic or Arian or any other ancient literature - there are tons upon tons of texts that are not included as Scripture in the Christian Bible, ancient and contemporary. The Mormons claim that the angel Moroni provided Joseph Smith with a whole new set of Scriptures - are you suggesting that any and all texts that speak of God or address the life and teachings of Jesus should be counted as divinely inspired Scripture and included in the Bible?

              The OT prepared the way for the promised Messiah, in the fullness of time Jesus came, He called to Himself a small band of apostles to document and proclaim the truth of His coming and work . . . after His death and resurrection the Holy Spirit was given, the apostles were inspired by God to depose His revealed truth, these writings were kept and collected and bound together as the Bible, God's word. I count all and only the Bible to be God's own revelation of His truth, and so, the only authoritative Scripture.

              As I say, there are tons of extra-Biblical texts, I have many, many of them - what Polycarp wrote was not inspired Scripture, what Ignatius wrote was not inspired Scripture, what gnostics wrote was not inspired Scripture, what Arius and his followers wrote was not inspired Scripture, what Charles dickens wrote was not inspired Scripture, what a lot of other writing is isn't inspired Scripture.

              How do you come to assert that slavery is approved of by God, and how do you conclude that if I (or whoever) believes slavery was not approved of by God that we are denying the Bible to be God's word? I don't see your argument - the Bible talks about adultery, monarchy rather than democracy, riding on donkeys rather than driving cars, etc, etc - I'm not trying to be a wise guy, I don't see how the fact of slavery being mentioned in the Bible indicates that God approves of slavery? Do you know of some passage where God declares His approval of slavery?

              1. LookingForWalden profile image60
                LookingForWaldenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                This sounds like a rule to me.

                    When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.  If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again.  But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her.  And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter.  If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife.  If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.  (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

                Either that's the word of god or the word of man. Respond directly to this question without a long winded preamble please.

                And

                The bible we see today is made from the council of Nicea. There they decided what books went into the new testament. Where and when Jesus was born, and his divinity. I present these as facts as this is what is taught by institutions of education.

                Again, I am willing to admit my error if you bring about evidence from a credible source but you still provide nothing.

                1. MickeySr profile image87
                  MickeySrposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  LFW > Respond directly to this question without a long winded preamble please <

                  I'm not too good at avoiding long-winded anything, preamble, body, postlude, whatever . . . I will do my best to be direct, but, you're not required to engage me, this is a voluntary discussion - and, let me be clear; I'm not trying to 'prove' you wrong, I'm not trying to convince you that my view is right - I am merely sharing with you my own understanding of these things. And, I must add, your interest to avoid any 'preamble' does cause me to wonder if a cursory skimming over the historic record is the root of your flawed information (I'll get to The Council of Nicaea in a bit). 

                  As to the issue of slavery; you first must understand what it is you are talking about, what you are objecting to - the slavery in question (the OT culture of servitude) was not at all what we think of as our own antebellum slavery of the south. I don't think any manner of involuntary service is good, and I don't believe God approves of any manner of involuntary, forced servitude - however, what this passage is talking about simply is not what we think of as slavery.

                  This ancient world form of bond-servant existed before God called Abraham and before He gave us His law through Moses, this was part of the ancient working economy well before and long after the state of Israel . . . it was already an established practice. What these laws were doing was providing protections for those sold into service. Just as God, in His word, sets forth legal boundaries and proceedings and consequences for adultery and theft, etc, He is here not condoning or approving of slavery (just as He doesn't of adultery or theft) but is making actionable by law the violations men cannot exceed.

                  God does eventually move men to end slavery completely, just as he does multiple wives, animal sacrifice, etc - but He's not going to reach down and make everything just as it should be in one instant. and we would all bitch about if He did . . . He is moving in history and in His people to overcome sin. To use that reality to assert that the Bible is then not legitimately His word is a ludicrous argument - God doesn't stop us from practicing slavery so we don't think He wrote the Bible?

                  As to The Council of Nicaea; someone must have published a book on The Council of Nicaea of very poor scholarship, but a very big seller, because the false notion you assert is a very popular, very common false assertion . . . I didn't see it but someone told me the notion that The Council of Nicaea 'invented' the Bible was advanced in the movie "The Da Vinci Code", perhaps that's were all you guys get your flawed history from.

                  The Council of Nicaea did not attend to the issue of the canon of Scripture at all - it dealt with Arian controversy and declared the deity of Jesus to remain as the orthodox Christian view. It wasn't until The Council of Carthage, not quit 100 years later, that the issue of the canon was dealt with . . . and they didn't 'invent' what the canon was or should be - they 'officially' substantiated what the Christian church had long held to be the Bible in response to false teachers seeking to remove and insert books that were never counted as Scripture.

                  Again, try to follow the way this would reasonably work; if people on HubPages more and more began using the word "bullshit" and more and more some began to complain about it, so that HubPages decided to have a big meeting to address the matter, and they determined that the word "bullshit" is sometimes the only word that can properly express what it's intended to express and so they issue a formal notice that using the word "bullshit" is permissible on HubPages, would you read their formal notice and think HubPages just invented a new word and was now directing everyone to use it?

                  Actually, I've never understood why you guys so commonly get it wrong about the Bible and The Council of Nicaea - even if you're going to misread history and conclude that these councils manufactured ideas rather than 'officially' recognizing the truth of ideas already held, The Council of Carthage which actually set forth the canon of Scripture adds nearly 100 years from the time the texts were written to the official announcement of the canon . . . I would thin that extra 100 year distance would appeal to you guys - but, you have to do honest, thorough, real investigation rather than merely read the popular slander of someone else's flawed research.

                  I honestly don't mean to sound snotty, but it's not at all difficult to discover what these councils gave their attention to, and so many of you guys so regularly assert that The Council of Nicaea invented the Bible and that's just so observably not the case - seriously, look it up (not on your favorite 'down with the Bible' website, but in actual history books), The Council of Nicaea, The Council of Carthage, the canon of Scripture, etc . . .

                  1. LookingForWalden profile image60
                    LookingForWaldenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    I'll end my part in this with a we agree to disagree. My goal is not to try persuade you from your faith. If that seemed like my. Intention to you I apologize. I only want to gather knowledge i dont have from people in the never ending quest to form my own opinion. However, I still don't know where you get  your facts on Constantine and what Nicea was, as I am using college databases for mine. I will say since nobody I know was alive and present there that's why I am trying to keep an open mind. I appreciate your responses as they are well thought out and presented. My only gripe was being generalized into a category of people. But I don't feel like you were using it detrimental towards me, you've probably just been through this discussion a lot. Lol

                    Thank you for discussing your take on slavery in the bible. I enjoyed reading your take on them.
                    Now I must leave these religous forums before my head explodes.

                  2. brotheryochanan profile image60
                    brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    I prefer to use the Early Church canon of scriptures, which flowed through to those councils mentioned. The Early Church did not dispute that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John (the disciple John, son of Zebedee) wrote the gospels and neither did they dispute Pauls writings. The fact we have copies of copies (not rewrites containing different information but the same information which is what a copy actually is) shows the reliability and acceptance of all these scriptures which today comprise the New Testament. The veracity of these scriptures could not be refused by the Carthage council and were in essence, unstoppable.
                    The fact that apocrypha was added by the Catholic church is understandable as they used these books to compile their doctrines which as time has shown are conflicting with the Early Church doctrines and beliefs of the first century church which is why the protestant church booted them out - to loosely sum that scenario up.
                    The OT canon has never been in dispute, even Christ himself quoted often and in a parable "they have Moses and the prophets and if they will not beleive them, they will not believe even if visited by a dead relative".

  41. LookingForWalden profile image60
    LookingForWaldenposted 5 years ago

    If you would like to address slavery in the bible as gods truth I'm open for that. 
    I'm always open to a debate on talking snakes too.

    1. brotheryochanan profile image60
      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      People became slaves for the following reasons:

      1) poverty, the inability to sustain oneself and family. A
      person could sell the right to his labor in return for provision
      of sustenance for himself and family. (lev 25:39, 47) As i have
      said before this is quite like being hired as a maid or butler
      or groundskeeper, etc because a bill is being paid therefore
      equal to some sort of a wage.
          Exorbitant interest rates on loans, forbidden under the
      statutes regulating usury, (God aware of some wanting to profit
      by interest rates regulated interest rates) demanded that people
      become slaves to resolve insolvency. Some of Davids followers we
      defaulting debtors who had fled their creditors (1 sam 22:2)

      2) Restitution for theft.  Restitution by law required the
      return of double the amount stolen. (God decided that if a
      person steal and be caught they should pay double the amount) If
      the thief were unable to comply he was sold and his work made
      restitution. (ex 22:1-4) That'll teach him smile

      3) Birth. Children of hebrew slaves became slaves by birth (ex
      2:14) although this situation would not have been permanent
      except that the slave had chosen to become a permanent slave.
      (ex: 21:6; Deu 15:17). God instilled a fair treatment policy
      toward slaves paying off debts while living their lives with the
      blessings of family.
          Children of a defaulting debtor could be sold to pay the debt or
      where claimed along with their father as slaves till the next
      year of jubilee (ex:21:7; Lev 25:39-41, 47, 54; 2 kings 4:1; Neh
      5:5; Isa 50:1)

      4)Abduction. Josephs brother essentially stole him and sold him
      as a slave.(Gen 37:27,28) To reduce a kidnapped person to
      slavery was punishable by death (ex 21:16; Deu 24:7), showing
      God recognition of this possibility and fervent distaste toward
      such action.

      there were limits to slave service under the Mosaic law. Besides
      freedom granted in the jubilee year - God decreed that all
      slaves were set free regardless of any issue, this was done so
      that the person in slavery did not lose inherited family land
      and that continuity would prevail along family lineages - a
      relative may pay the price owing or redeem the slave (lev 25:48
      -49) If not redeemed, a person would receive freedom after six
      years service together with gifts (ex 21:2). A mans wife and
      children were freed with him. (ex 21:3).

      In his seventh year, an Israelite servant could choose to
      become a permanent slave instead of accepting freedom. ( ex
      21:6; Deu 15:17) Again, under Gods laws slaves were treated
      fairly and because of  hard times, whatever reason, could opt
      for a permanent position.

      Protection was provided for the slave in the Mosaic law. Loss of
      an eye or a tooth entitled the slave to freedom (ex 21:6,7;Lev
      24:22)

      During NT times, roman society was dependent upon slavery and
      held a large number of the population. Jesus never criticized
      the institution of slavery. Many slaves at that time were well-
      educated men who had been captured or had fallen upon lean
      days; capable of managing large estates and business affairs
      (matt 25: 14-23) Unlike classical Greece or imperial Rome, the
      economy of Israel never became dependent upon slave labor. The
      benevolent requirements (instituted by God) prevented profitable
      large-scale dealing in slaves.

      1. A Troubled Man profile image60
        A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        It sure is funny when believers try to justify slavery in their holy books.

        Sad, but funny. lol

        1. brotheryochanan profile image60
          brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          whats sadder is when people deliberately remain ignorant of what is going on and they just type words because their fingers work and it doesn't even matter if their brain is on pause. I hope you find something worthwhile within yourself to cause you to up your game and maybe someday you will actually post something that benefits the discussion instead of just peeing around the place and then patting yourself on the back for being an intelligent person.
          have a nice day

  42. 0
    Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago

    First of all He was never called Jesus he was Yahshua so as to come in the name of God. Jesus is a Latin name pronounced Hey-sous.
    In Hebrew, names, titles, and life purposes were the same. He was born Immanuel and later went in God’s name Yahshua


    God told Ahaz about Immanuel
    Isaiah 7:14. Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

    In Matthew 1
    Joseph had a dream  and an Angel appeared and  told him to name him Yahshua *yes your Bible says Jesus but the angel did not  Latin (a  roman language) to Joseph)
    Immanuel is a Hebrew name and so is Yahshua.
    In verses 22-23 it explains it was done because of the prophecy of Ahaz that he would be born and his name would be called Emmanuel.
    Of course Joseph didn’t name him, Mary did.

    Immanuel and Yahshua were his names

    1. brotheryochanan profile image60
      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      yes but we english people do not speak those languages. This is why translations occurred. yahshuah is speculative because the vowels might be wrong, same with yahweh. ywhw is unpronounceable, so vowel points were added as the masoretics thought necessary. Jesus is english for yahshua. It used to be Iesus, the I at that time having a J sound as in jump. The letter J:
      J
      the letter is a late modification of Roman -i-, originally a scribal creation in continental M.L. to distinguish small -i- in cursive writing from the strokes of other letters, especially in the final positions of words. But in Eng., -y- was used for this, and -j- was introduced c.1600-1640 to take up
      the consonantal sound that had evolved from -i- since L.L. times. This usage first was attested in Sp., where it was in place before 1600. Eng. dictionaries continued to lump together words beginning in -i- and -j- until 19c.

      1. 0
        Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        _________

        This English girl does speak those languages. Names are not translated, just words.

        There is no such Yahweh.

        The YHVH is said Yod-Hey-Vav-Hey, not Jehovah, not Yahweh.

        The Yod was taken from Hebrew not the English Y.

        No the vowels could not have been any vowel. I know you've read that but it's untrue

        He3brews letters aren't just letters, they are words too and what letters placed where gives much info about what it's saying

  43. Joy56 profile image60
    Joy56posted 5 years ago

    Because they are ..... wrong

    1. Cagsil profile image84
      Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      lol

  44. Joy56 profile image60
    Joy56posted 5 years ago

    glad you saw the funny side of that, thought i would land myself in hot water for that

  45. 0
    Virgil Newsomeposted 5 years ago

    Matthew 5:17  Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

    1. 0
      Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      _______

      Is this suppose to say he did away with the law?

      1. 0
        Virgil Newsomeposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Make of it what you want, I just posted the scripture.  But since you asked about it, why not explain it?

      2. brotheryochanan profile image60
        brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Its pretty obvious the Mosaic law is done away with.

        Jeremiah 31:31   Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a NEW covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

          Jeremiah 31:32   Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

          Jeremiah 31:33   But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

          Jeremiah 31:34   And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

        1. 0
          Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          ******************

          Yes, Israel. Are you a Hebrew (Jew)?

  46. LookingForWalden profile image60
    LookingForWaldenposted 5 years ago

    Does anyone think Horus gets mad at Jesus for stealing his entire story?

    I'd like korky or brotheryochanan to google Horus and give me a real response to that.

    1. IzzyM profile image87
      IzzyMposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Have you not found Walden yet?

      1. LookingForWalden profile image60
        LookingForWaldenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Last I heard it was in Mass. It's like a 4 week trip from where I live.

    2. 61
      Korky10posted 5 years ago in reply to this
      1. LookingForWalden profile image60
        LookingForWaldenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I will never open a link for a scientific or historical argument if it does not end in edu.
        Don't try to link propaganda nonsense as evidence.
        Sigh.
        You might as well link Wikipedia pages...

        I gather you didn't know about Horus lol.
        The bane of fundamentalism.

        Well, that and dinosaurs.

        1. 61
          Korky10posted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Laugh out loud!  Ignorance is bliss. Anyone with such stupid nonsense as Jesus stealing Horus life?????you have to wonder. I am guessing your not the type to rely on ignorance.  You already have read the link.

          1. LookingForWalden profile image60
            LookingForWaldenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Dionysius much?

    3. brotheryochanan profile image60
      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      actually I see little comparison between the two at all.
      First i would like to make a point of the 10 plagues against Egypt at the time of Yahwehs bringing His people out of that slavery.
        Exodus 10:21   And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.
        Exodus 10:22   And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days:
          Horus was the sun, moon and stars god, but here we see that this decree of God mops up the floor with Horus as with the other gods that Egypt worshiped. Every plague that God caused to happen was against a main god of Egypt.
      Of course mankind, at that time worshiped what they saw. This is the way the human mind works - mans imagination conjures up all sorts of things, in this case theories, but we see that in the bible, a recollection of Hebraic/jewish history, God defeated important Egyptian gods and persuasively showed they were nothing more than made up imagery.

      There is no virgin birth and no resurrection that equal the Christian perspective.

      Too me, this horus superstition carries no weight at all and i do not see it as a predecessor to Christianity but as an evil imagination that took god a millennia to eradicate from His people.

      If we look to the book of Leviticus we see that God goes to great lengths to set up and create a completely different set of standards, way of life and process of worship for His people that are also, completely different from every other humanistic god worship of the nations around during that time.

      The idea of sUn and sOn being connected is ludicrous! Of course the egyptians were going to worship the sUn, its what they saw and i dare say the amount of sunshine and quality of that sunshine was definitely awe inspiring ( I see the sun in the summer and it still wows me ) but sOn in Hebrew/Jewish culture was important for entirely different reasons, having to do with family values and definitely is not linked with vegetative cycles.

      So since horus does not exist the answer to the question is NO.

  47. IzzyM profile image87
    IzzyMposted 5 years ago

    Can neither of you guys even be bothered putting up an avatar? One here 5 days, the other 2 weeks. Why am I even bothering?

    1. LookingForWalden profile image60
      LookingForWaldenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Sorry, ive been lazy. I like yours though.
      I'll get one tomorrow.

  48. Jerami profile image79
    Jeramiposted 5 years ago

    brotheryochanan wrote:
    Its pretty obvious the Mosaic law is done away with.

    Jeremiah 31:31   Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a NEW covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

      Jeremiah 31:32   Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
    ============================================================
    me

      And this is what Daniel 8th chapter is all about!
    " which my covenant they brake"
      NIT the Lord was govong them a warning that they had 70 weeks to bring their actions back inot harmony with the origional covenant .. Or Else they shall come to the end of THEIR Days.

       Not only that; but, they are going to kill the Messiah in 62 weeks making it imposible to avert my declaration thar THEY broke our covenant, and all of Gods promises were fulfilled anyway, at least till there wasn't  hebrew Nation any longer in which to have a covenant with!  They shall be scattered to the ends of the earth or a time, times and an half.

      During the first half of the 1800s, Millions of Hebrew peoples migrated hack to the promised land bring an end to this prophesy, And 50 t0 1000 years Israel oficially became a Nation again. 
      Would this not be when God makes another covenant with the Hebrew People?

      We keep forgetting;  God can make as many diferent covenants with as many diferent peoples as he chooses.

      We are not talking about them other covenants;  we are talking about those which are written in the bible, To those Hebrew people that were alive under that covenant.
      That Nation came to the end of their days when they were scattered to the four winds and the Roman Empire attempted to erase all memory of them, ever having existing, off the face of the earth.

       So, of course we are under a new covenant....   too bad, no one knows exactly what "all" the terms are? 

       A lot of people say that they/we do,  but do we?
       


         

    This verse does not say anything about the Mosaic law. 
    This speaks of the covenant with Abraham, does it not?   All of the Mosaic law came after the covenant was entered into; did it not?  two different things.
      Jeremiah 31:33   But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

      Jeremiah 31:34   And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

  49. adamwillss profile image60
    adamwillssposted 4 years ago

    All the people must go to hell except only those who follows last messenger faithfully.

  50. waynet profile image47
    waynetposted 4 years ago

    I believed that Jesus was a prostitute and I still worshipped him the same!

    1. adamwillss profile image60
      adamwillssposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Oh! My Brother you are in dark now plz wake up The Prophet Jesus is the second last messenger, the Last messenger from GOD is MUHAMMAD. Accept his region as early as possible and I share with you my good news is I have accept ISLAM.

      Plz be fast.

      1. kittythedreamer profile image96
        kittythedreamerposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Whoa...maybe I should've asked why do Christians and Muslims believe everyone else is wrong?

 
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