Ok... enough is enough. We hate the arbitrary hubber score. It is a phantom's judgement of us and the Q and A section does not give a clear cut way to effectively appease the phantom.
Until you can give us an exact science (i.e. the way capitals and punctuation are used), it is not fair to stamp a number on our foreheads that describe to visitors how we/our work are to be viewed. It is a first impression... it affects how others perceive our hubs which is totally counter productive to our efforts. In other words, you're setting us up to fail before anyone's read a word we've written.
This is a petition.
Get rid of the hubber score or update its usage to make it clear and above all FAIR.
Though they have no hubs, some of them are active participants in forums and in giving comments. It's the same reason why those who have hubs but are not very active on HP get low scores. I think.
Some of the people with the highest scores haven't published new content in years, or commented on other Hubs or posted in the forums. The high scores are mostly reflective of the QAP scores on their Hubs.
But I agree with Sed-me that the Hubber Score should be banned from public view.
What exactly is QAP scores, if I may ask?
You can find out more about how the QAP process works here:
This is the ratings chart for creative writing like poems and short stories:
This is the ratings chart for articles:
Here are examples of Hubs and what ratings they received:
lol, toast, tug, icecream, juice and peter are not active accounts. but they must be doing something better than cheese, who only has a score in the 60s. http://cheese.hubpages.com/
I thought you said 'active nouns' and was baffled but amused. And now that I see that you said 'accounts' I still can't think of many nouns better than cheese. Maybe bacon. Both equally active, as far as nouns go.
You can't put anything above God. Not even bacon.
Haha. Huffpost Celebrity concurs.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/1 … 70357.html
When I was 16, I would have been really excited about that. Im afraid the crunchy kind turns me on a little more at this point.
This time I concur in spades.... http://www.stupid.com/assets/images/bac … ards_2.jpg
These are the kind of jokes I have to avoid in public places. If we were alone though... we'd be giggling right now. lol
I clicked on the links to their pages and see that Pen1s has been banned! What a hard, penetrating plunge that must be for him.
I have the feeling my thread has gone horribly awry.
sorry, only highlighting how stupid the scores are if you automatically get 70 points just for writing your name on the assignment, as it were
You're absolutely right. Ive been complaining about that for at least a year. It causes me great consternation to know that ppl who write published hubs have the same score or close to those who have done nothing but, as you said, written their names. grr.
The world is a hellish place, and bad writing is destroying the quality of our suffering.
- Tom Waits
The road to hell is paved with adverbs.
- Stephen King
Does the new hubscore formula require you to be in the forums a lot then? What if you don't have time?
Sounds good to me. I never cared what mine was to begin with, and they seem to perturb a whole lot of nice folks here. So be done with them!
If you are really mad as heck I know an albino cobra that needs a good yelling at. Maybe it will help to release your anger.
Why would I need an albino cobra? I've already got a red trouser snake waiting for me in bed.
haha. Snakes in a cubicle? Can I get banned for that joke?
I totally agree! Get rid of the darn thing that has been busted for years and only torments good writers. It is nonsense.
Thank you Mr. Awesome. Now let's get serious.
How 'bout some more signatures!
I'm touring Europe at the moment. In Italy I tried to complain that the beer I was served was flat. I could not get the message across. So I used my translation app and rudely showed the result to the waiter.
The translation for Beer Flat was Biere Appartmento. We both laughed!
+1. Just speaking up to show support. If nobody even understands what the hubber score represents, why mess up perfectly good avatars?
I'm all for doing away with it, or at least hiding it from public view.
I think the Huber score should be internal and not visible on our profiles. The Huber score has forever challenged me to write better hubs and I love to see it on my account page. Yet, just like HubPages recently removed the visible Hub Score of on its pages, it should act similarly for the total Hub Score that is aired on our profile page.
In my short time here I have noticed that the score keep changing in relation to the activities your page receive. I agree though, public posting of one's score could work against an article.
It's true. Your hub, from first look, appears to be good, but your score causes one to think, "I'll read a different hub on this topic. With a score like that, it can't be very good." It's not right.
One thing that usually improves my hub score by a point or two within a day or so is Hopping Hubs. I am not sure how they correlate, but hopping 3 usually does the trick.
Ive never done that. I don't think I knew what I was doing and I didn't want to make a mistake that adversely affected someone.
I wondered about that, too.
Also, although I would like to get my Hubber Score back to an even number (I really liked 94), I like that my followers and Hubber Score are currently the same. So I guess I don't want it to go up just yet.
You won't - but you do get to report the spun articles and some are so heinously incoherent they deserve to be knocked as well.
Seriously, go do it now; it's fun. Hop 3 hubs. The spun articles can be very funny; sometimes I laugh until I cry. If you get to a topic you don't know anything about, for me that would be gaming, just exit out and go back in again. It will give you a new hub to hop.
So what do you do, thumbs down an article that is grammatically incorrect etc?
It seems so judgmental, like I'm going behind their back. I feel like I'd need to sit down with them and explain my actions before I could do something like that. lol
Haha, that's me, too. A bit of why I posted my comment in the feedback survey here. I felt like I'd be two-faced to say something different elsewhere than I was implying here.
No, LOL You score it on three criteria from 1-10 Substance, Organization and Grammar/Mechanics. There is a scale as you pass over each possible score that explains in detail what each number means. Creative writing has a different set of scales.
This does not have to be judgmental, it can also be an opportunity to raise a score on a hub that has been harshly judged by the MTurker. I read many excellent hubs there as well, and score them accordingly. It forces me to look at hubs outside on my natural field of interest.
You do not know who the author is - the hub is anonymous.
One thing I'd like would be the ability to offer suggestions to the author (anonymously of course). For instance I 'hopped' 6 hubs today- 2 were just very poorly written and flagged, 1 was excellent, and the others were good but contained syntax/grammar errors that would be easily fixed. The most common issue was comma splices.
I know I could look up the hub and then contact the writer directly but I'd prefer to remain anonymous. Hubpages could keep track of your comments so if someone is being abusive they can be blocked from further comments without the author ever knowing who it was.
One thing I really like best about HubPages is that you have to stand behind what you say. There is no way of anonymously commenting if you really want to communicate with another site member. People have to own up to their actual words and statements.
I wouldn't recommend anyone hold their breath for HubPages to take action on this complaint.
Recently, there were protests about Scores on another thread. I suggested to the complainants that they should go and revive this thread, so HubPages couldn't pretend their complaints were an isolated case:
At that time, the thread was still open for comment. Mysteriously, after I suggested they add to it, the thread was closed.
I can think of no other reason than that HubPages wanted to bury it - they don't want people to know just how many Hubbers are unhappy with scores.
So let's us band together so they can't make it go away and if this thread is removed, we will just start another............................
So everyone, but the vegetarians agree at this point.
That's a big ole "yes" to Bacon... the meat.
And a big ole "no" to hubber scores!
Since kale is only one measly point behind bacon, this vegetarian can get behind that statement.
I have no idea what a hubber score is for. It seems to change randomly.
Are you vegan? Because cheese and kale are tied.
Did we already know the score of cheese? I'm losing track.
A bacon, kale, and cheese burger sounds pretty good. Except I can't have the cheese. Or the bun. For medical reasons. Which is why I would never give up bacon. For any reasons.
*Edit/disclaimer: that was not the judgement on vegetarianism or veganism that it may have sounded like. Rather an innocent and genuine love for bacon and longing for cheese.
No worries. I'm not one of those Angry Vegans™. Eat the bacon, and the cheese, if that makes you happy. Have mine, too, while you're at it.
Why don't we compromise. I had something a few months ago that was incredible. Bacon wrapped figs. Oh my word. It might have you rethinking the meat thing.
No rethinking. You can have my allotment of bacon. Win/win.
I am with you on that one. I almost lost my cookies when I read about bacon covered figs. (And they are really good cookies.)
I think we have finally come full circle back to Bubblews again and stolen half baked cookies.
I should have binged on bacon these last few days instead of cookies (though they were pretty darned good). I think it would have been better for my cold. And bacon never makes me grumpy. My husband made me some bacon flavored whiskey. Maybe I should switch to that for a day or two.
Oh dear... your too far off the mark now... no offense Dr. Mark.
But no crunch. I guess you could put ice in it.
The candied bacon I make has an exceptional crunch......from the carmelized sugars and spices. It's other-worldly. Perfect combination of crunchy and gooey sweetness. With a bit of a spicy kick.
I bet they use some kind of liquid smoke type flavoring.
He infuses different alcohols with flavors, usually over the course of months (ginger vodka was one of the first he tried). I think his first attempt used bacon grease (which I know sounds horrid and doesn't make my case). Now that I'm trying to remember....I can't. It did work, though. I made spiced, candied bacon twists for a party, which went great with whiskey. But the sugar made me grumpy, so he tried the bacon whiskey. (All these references to food and grumpiness probably sound pretty high maintenance, but it's all Lyme disease related, so it's not really my fault.)
My friend had Lymes disease, and every spring she would have a flair-up that lasted 3 weeks or so. She started making Kefir at home, which is quite easy, and she drinks it in a smoothy every morning. She has not had a flair-up in 3 years.
I can't do kefir because I can't have dairy (I had to see that one on paper through blood work, because I wasn't giving up cheese without a fight), but I do have meds/herbals that work similarly. And I bought kambucha yesterday to help recover from my little sugar binge.
How does sugar affect Lyme's disease?
Is it cause bacteria likes sugar?
Does the bacteria never completely leave your system?
As for Lyme---treated right away, most people recover fully. Antibodies stay, at the very least, in those cases. If it goes untreated it is very hard to ever fully get rid of (I was misdiagnosed for 3.5 years because my state says we don't have lyme here). It lives as spirochetes, cysts, and biofilms, each of which is resistent to different types of treatments and can 'hide' in different body systems at different times. But flares, as solaras mentioned, can be one of thse forms reproducing quickly all of a sudden and increasing symptoms. I was mostly recovered for many, many months working full time and living mostly normally, until last spring's relapse.
I've read that spirochetes crave sugar. I feel like they do. I'm like a walking ant farm. And sugar, like some of the other foods I can't tolerate, increases inflammatory responses that can cause pain and fogginess and problems (and grumpiness). Yeast that builds up in your gut (especially after antibiotics) feeds on sugar, and dies off when deprived of sugar (which feels horrible). The kefir that solaris mentioned would help lyme patients by holding back yeast (its a probiotic that would help populate the gut with good flora) and by foster good gut chemistry that would help with nutrient absorption and immune fuction (both of which are significantly suppressed with lyme infection).
It may not go away, but patients do best when they can get the numbers of spirochetes, cysts, biofilms down. But there are also coinfections from the same ticks that are also hard to treat.
Things I can'g have (despite my best efforts) at all include dairy, gluten, casein (a dairy protein that goes back into everything non-dairy). Sugar isn't good, but I've already given up too much, I can do some if I'm moderate. Which I wasn't the cookies (that I'm trying not to sound like I'm blaming on someone in this thread because it's not his fault and they were very good, and met my objectives at the time).
Another good hub. I wonder if there are a lot of hubs on this...
There is a category now, as of a few days ago, which I am very happy about. They got back to me almost instantaneously when I requested it. My first hub on this is kind of the basics of the horrible politics around it. I'm trying to do one on my state's reasons for denying lyme....rebutting an editorial, but it is a little bit overwhelming to get it all down.
Also, there is a bill before the house today, and a national letter campaign, so lyme folks are in a bit of a busy tizzy trying to spread the word.
I may also be able to go to a vigil in New York next week. So there are at least a few more new hubs coming on this in the short term, with lots more in the future.
Sugar has a similar affect to falling hub scores. I will probably eat the last three cookies anyway, for the same reasons I will probably check my scores today.
Have you tried astragalus? It helps puppies' immune systems with mange.
I would never stop eating cheese. I would rather explode.
No, but I will look into it. I have to be careful what I try because I have to take so many things already. But if I can get just a bit better, it may be a good time to try a few things out while I can track what's doing what.
I know. "What kind of life would there be without cheese" is part of the summary of one of my hubs for that reason. That's why I had to see it in writing.
Beer and wine I also can't tolerate. No bloodwork needed on those. I kept trying over time and my system couldn't handle it. But does fine with hard alcohol. Seriously! Hence my appreciation for whiskey (covered in the hub with cheese, actually).
How do you like bourbon? I can make a hub for you on tasty bourbon cocktails. Used to be a bartender in another lifetime.
I LOVE bourbon. Of the few things I gained from Lyme disease that I am happy about, bourbon is one of the top things. I never would have drank straight bourbon before, but I had no idea what I was missing (not that I do it all the time, but you know what I mean). I would LOVE YOU if you did!!!!
Bacon flavored whiskey? What sacrilege (sorry Beth, didnt mean to get into one of the religious forums).
Sign the petition! No more hubber score!
Fight the power!
(Put your fist in the air when you're typing as a show of solidarity, please.)
We tried that.
Here's the petition:
I can't type one handed, but it is funny to picture everyone trying to.
Oh my gosh. What a chatty group we are. No matter how many threads we start on this subject, no one just signs their names. Probably 'cause none of us are using actual names. <sigh>
Like herding chickens in Montana (or guinea hens in Brazil).
OK...Here is my Name Luis E Gonzalez (that'st my real name, just in case anyone is wondering)........lol
Oh shoot... I don't want to put my last name. lol
Ill just do my other real name.
Sir, you have an enormous---er, male chicken. In your post.
You know, when I said we were like herding chickens, I wasn't even thinking of the obvious interpretation of that.
My chickens have been escaping, so I was thinking they were hard to herd. But if they think I have food, they are not hard to round up at all. So this makes much more sense. They love bacon scraps. And chicken scraps. They will follow me anywhere for food.
This chicken should look a bit more carnivorous.
I'm using my actual name. Names. Mushed together. I really am Lisa Vollrath, here, and everywhere.
I think the World is judgmental. My real name could make or break my interactions.
It's time to take them down.
They're disheartening and worthless all in the same breath.
One person actually started a thread saying that it made him want to take his own life, it made him feel so low.
Are we writers or human experiments?
It's like asking someone to come to your home and cook for your dinner party, then mocking their effort.
(I can come up with a million of those... I'm an amazing writer... not that you'd know by my score. lol)
Agreed with hubscores. I usually have high ones, but there's nothing more disappointing than having a high one go wonky from time to time....you get lulled into a false sense of security, then WHAM it puts you in your real place. I think they should go as they psychologically upset Hubbers.
I've completely given up caring about hub score. My shortest and most banal hub now has a score of 98 since the recent adjustments. Hubs that I've put a lot of effort into and that do very well traffic-wise (popularity) now languish in the 60s and 70s.
Indeed - and any edits continue to devastate hub scores. My account page is churning with scores rising and then being punched back down again by a simple product change on an Amazon ad or typo correction.
I have to ignore the scores, or I would never make another correction again.
She says from her mansion in the sky.
My hubs are all published, I obviously chat it up here.
I even answer questions and leave comments on other hubber's hubs.
For this, I have a 77.
When I had 80 plus published hubs, I had a score in the 80s.
I think the feeling is just that it is NOT black and white.
I just saw a post in another forum by what is either a bot, or someone for whom English is a barely known language. Their score is 60.
Ah, but the score IS in black and white. Rather like a mug shot.
LOL - Honestly Beth - I don't understand why you get shafted in the Hubber Score department. When you left before, I considered starting a petition to give you a permanent 100 Hubber Score to lure you back again.
Aardvark scores a handsome 70 while snow leopard gets only 67. Kitten manages 68 but then so does skunk, while 'dog bad breath' ties with snow leopard.
All of these 'hubbers' (like the others already mentioned)have never put pen to paper.
It makes no sense. I'm convinced. lets get rid of Hub Scores!
While we are at it, these penless slackers actually get accolades for being here for so many years. What utter nonsense!
Incidentally, magnificent Bubbl*ws (a site for sore eyes?) does not have any scores at all which proves the point. (Bubblews also has an innovative lottery-style payment system but lets not go there!)
I thought you were going to tell a story... I was totally into it. How does it end for the kitty and the snow leopard?
Is there nothing you can't find on the internet?
Now do an elephant and a camel.
http://4kingfunny.com/wp-content/upload … ephant.jpg
( In memory of Joan Rivers. She always liked that one.)
You've already got 12 pts on me. My gift to you. Don't ask how I do it. You're welcome.
Uh...Oh wait I like this one better
Deep down I'm a really pussycat (except on the forums)
He should have been tested for Lyme disease....
How do we know Arachnea is talking about Anthony Perkins and not one of us? Hurtful.
I know about that one and am surprised by the low quality it spews. I am not a master, but the post there are...you guess.
Where do I sign?
Does anyone know how to photoshop a score of 100 onto my Profile Score?
There has got tot be someone out there who can tell me how to do it.
Calculus-geometry figured out one way to do it:
Nice one - I wonder if he would write a 'How To' change your profile score with Photoshop for us. Trust a mathematician to find a way around the problem.
That's funny. Perhaps just a well placed "1" with a white background with the correct opacity. You could have a score of 191!
I am going to fall into decline if anyone mentions my score - even with another hundred in front of it.
How about if we just paint our own hubber scores.Heck if we are being "branded" why not just add our own.....lol
I vote for water soluble paint...just in case.
I remember a hubber a few years ago who managed to photoshop his avatar in such away that a '1' appeared before his hubber score. If you did that, you'd currently have a score of 184.
That is funny - are you sure white is your color!
How long does it take for an avatar to update in the forums?
I don't know, but I see it on your profile page. Nice work.
Perhaps they're on to me. I modified my profile 30 min ago, and while it does show up if you go to my profile page, the avatar showing in the forums has not updated.
Oh... hahaha... 173, your mother always said you were an over-achiever.
I stayed purposefully vague until now (and brief--you're welcome) to spare you all. But in the interest of not being a chicken, and as atonement to Sed-me for repeatedly helping to make her thread go awry, I am posting my full and complete opinion rather than a signature.
There was a satisfaction survey on my statistics page just now, with a box for comments.This is what poured forth in the tiny box (with a tiny bit of formatting and typo editing). If you are not in the mood for wandering or overly-personal thoroughness, skip the rest of this post.
We joked earlier about being chicken....and I hadn't "signed" yet. Since that survey box came up when I was about to, I posted my response here, since it was addressing this issue.
If you mean the early-on statement about brevity, that was me acknowledging that I was about to take up a lot of space.
Solaras, if you are in "threaded" view, instead of "chronological" view, you are missing quite a bit and that post would make no sense. If so, you can change it in the upper right corner of the page.
Im starting another petition tomorrow that the "threaded" option be removed.
It's like a book being printed with the chapters all mixed up and you only know by word of mouth that you can buy a version where all the chapters are in order.
Hi bBerean thanks for the tip - that sure changed things a lot! It also made this thread 5 pages instead of one.
I just came from a thread of former Squids who are all stoked to have any sort of feedback and who are excited to be able to achieve equal levels in rank after being on a system that gave rally generalized abstracted feedback and which ranked every page regardless of topic on one huge numerical list.
tl;dr they love HubScores
I've had a pretty good attitude, but today's drop in just about all of my scores is not acceptable. My energies are officially moving elsewhere for now. If a given hub pertains directly to Lyme efforts, it may show up here in the short term. But likely not.
I no longer have a single hub in the 90's. Not one. I don't think any of my previously awarded hubs (EC, HotD, RS) are any higher than the 70's. Maybe they need to frustrate enough people to get down to manageable writer numbers.
So that's it. Proof for me that I do care about the numbers. Because they're there....for that reason....and when they fall, it bothers me. And because I don't have the "as long as we're making money" net to comfort me.
I do like the community here. You guys are hilarious. There aren't many places to go for smart funny. And I'm a sucker for a pun.
But I guess this is a good kick in the butt to get back to higher priorities.
So consider me a signatory.
Any time I edit a hub, the score drops, sometimes 10 points. So if RMM did some editing, that could account for the drop in her scores across the board.
This has been the case in other instances ( especially prior to August). And it helped me get things back up above 70 after things dropped in august (from 90s in several cases). But not all hubs recovered from editing, or they recovered very slowly or inconsistently, so that the changes in August have been mostly in pretty direct opposition to learning pages/ best practices, etc.
Nope. The only thing I did was link to two Lyme related hubs in a Lyme related blog. And I got a legislation post seen by almost 3,000 people on my Lyme Facebook page (a small page where 1 Lyme hub is also linked to, so that link may have been more visible to visitors yesterday). I mention this because I have consistently seen falls in scores just about any time I promote hubs in any way.
I mention this because prior to the recent changes, drops in score usually had to do with the typical patterns ( new hub = lower Hubber score; improved hub= lower hub score and Hubber score) usually with recovery. Since the drops/changes in August, my drops have been steady and random, except for the promotion pattern.
I know it doesn't make sense, but I feel like the coincidence ship has sailed.
How was traffic on those two that you linked to the blog?
Hub on Lyme disease: increased traffic prior to yesterday from Facebook link. Not much change yesterday from blog link. Score dropped a little.
Food intolerances hub: no change in traffic. Drop from 93 to 87 or 89 in score. It was the only one that stayed in the 90s through all these weeks of drops. That was the first time I linked to it, other than maybe g+ or twitter when first published.
Most others just sunk lower overnight along with them. Lots dropped below 80 or further below 80. They had been staying the same.
Recent examples that led me to fret in other forums about correlations:
Mentioned and linked to a hub in a forum: Huber score suddenly dropped, hub score dropped.
Indirectly mentioned another hub in same forum: hub went from top slot on first page of "all hubs" to completely out of sight. Went from top slot on health category to out of sight. Went from top slot on diseases to bottom of page. I know those jump around and don't stay up top forever, but that was so shortly after that's it's hard to ignore.
Tweeted a hub with a stable score. Score dropped.
Just keeps happening over and over. Still sounds coincidental as I type this, but the timing of these things and how many times it's happened now are just too frustrating.
*Its frustrating whether related or unrelated. Because if there's no pattern, there's no purpose for numbers. And if there's a pattern, it's not what they've repeatedly indicated it to be. Leaving these stupid correlations or similar ones as the only visible possibilities for the user, leading to ridiculous guess work and eventually employing undesirable solutions for both the site and the user.
*Scores are changing still as fast as I post these comments ( not saying related, just stating they are still in flux. Both Lyme hubs continue to fall).
One thing I notice is that 12 hubs have been published in the last 7 weeks on Lyme Disease. I don't know if that is hurting your subject matter. Maybe the algo does not know how to deal with the influx of new articles and it is just slamming them all. I would expect more to be importing from Squidoo shortly.
Sorry if that is the case. Someone who knows this site better than I do may be able to weigh in on whether that could hurt a topic. If that is the case, it may straighten itself out in a month or two.
I did notice that I recently wrote two articles on the same topic and published them within 2 weeks of each other. The first article was getting 30 views a day, then with publishing the second, the first article dropped down to 12 views a day. The new article is DOA.
That (potentially) really stinks. My article on food intolerances has now fallen ten points since last night, so maybe that category got hit hard, too.
Still, heck of a coincidence for it to start falling within hours (or possibly less) of linking to it in a blog post.
Nearly every fall in scores, especially the last week or two, has a potential solution that needs to have 'just happened' to have occurred within a very short time frame (hours or less) of directly promoting or indirectly promoting a hub to negate this relationship.
I stopped promoting in any way shape or form about five days ago, after obsessing over correlations in a thread, and being inspired therein to make cookies and take a break.
In the last 24 hours or so, I decided that was silly and did fairly minor linking and sharing, in addition to mentioning some of my topics in this thread.
So, for this to have happened more than five or six times by coincidence is pretty improbable. For it to happen that many times, with virtually no major score changes during the days I took a break is more than I can accept without un-taking statistics and study design courses I've had in the past.
If only I could undo that A in graduate level non-parametric statistics......then I could keep writing hubs.
by Missing Link 18 months ago
I'm thinking the answer is probably yes?If you have hubs that have been deemed "not featured", for one reason or another, will that factor into lowering your overall score/rating as a HubPages member? Example--let's say your overall rating is 75. If 10 non featured hubs become...
by M. Toni 4 years ago
I've been on here for a few years, and I guess I never really understood the point of these scores. They don't seem to provide any real value to the user and I can't convince myself that they add value because they fluctuate so much.What's the point? Am I supposed to use these scores to tell me...
by LindaSmith1 5 years ago
I took a hiatus for awhile from Hub Pages! However, in the past week or so, I have added new hubs participated in forums, asked a question or two, participated with the Hub Hopper, have read some Hubs, yet my Hubber Score is lower than it was when I was doing nothing. I don't get it!
by Lincoln Armstrong 11 years ago
http://hubpages.com/hub/Why_is_my_Computer_so_SlowBeen in the mid-90s for oh, 2-3 months. Now at 88 and dropping like a rock. This is my #1 traffic hub almost every day.http://hubpages.com/hub/How_much_RAM_sh … puter_havehas half the traffic and a score of 86...
by Audrey Hunt 5 years ago
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