I thought HP was a wonderful place, I still think it is except, for a few exceptions. I am surprised at some of the activities on the forums. All of us have an opinion to express and I believe it should be respected ( eg. Topics of religion and spirituality, or what a person has to say about HP itself) . I have noticed on the forums a person expresses an opinion, another retaliates with sarcasm, then it becomes a free for all. Correct me if I am wrong? Whatever happened to tolerance and charity? Shouldn't personal attacks be avoided? I am not here moderating HP , just expresing my opinion(or shouldn't I) I am very happy here and I wish it would be so for others. Happy mature hubivity
right on sister. Unfortunately that's just the way it is. There are many here who will express their opinions very hatefully if they don't agree with you. It's as if they believe they have a gun held to their head and being told how to believe.
Instead of just saying, I'm sorry I don't agree with you.
But I suppose the best thing to do is not to participate in those forums, if you do not like the actions of others.
There have been many times when I would like to say something, but I know it will be met with negativity, so I don't bother.
Sofs, if you see someone making a personal attack, report it using the Report button. That's not being a snitch, that's taking responsibility as a member of the community.
I agree, sofs. It changes when we begin to change our own self. It's easy to be triggered into anger and frustration, but when I take a deep breath, I see more often than not it's not me that's hurting, it's the person with the most venom, lashing out, etc.
I'll do my part to try to hold back on the sarcasm and lashing out. Although, I readily admit I have failed at times. But your post is a good reminder. We owe it to ourselves to find, cultivate and develop our best self. It's the only way we'll be at peace with ourselves, others, and the universe (or God, which ever you prefer...).
FOR GODS' SAKE! You two get a room, if you don't die from a sugar fit first! There are so many different types of forums here? Why impose yourself on forums you don't like, then tell people how to act. Speaking just for myself, I don't go the the Political or Religious forums to tip toe around anyone. There is something for everyone here on hubpages. Find forums where everyone is sweet and kind, and nice. Some of us are just here to mix it up! But, I'm not mad at ya! It's fun for me. And, it's as harmless as a pillow fight.
Spirited debate should be encouraged and welcomed! It's a good way for people to understand others and even to re-enforce their own beliefs. Personally I don't mind the personal attacks, it reveals something about the poster and often is an indication of frustration at the lack of ability to defend one's beliefs.
Or, perhaps, revealing about how insecure we might be in those beliefs, and perhaps even in ourselves.
I agree spirited debate can be productive, but attacks are not.
Mystics believe that life is love only. Everything else is a cry for help. I think there is truth in that. Perhaps two people attacking each other are cries for help to each other to not hurt anymore. Maybe they don't know how to walk away from it. Just thoughts...
Hey, who ask ya?
You're absolutely right of course.
A simple solution would be not to go into the forums.
beyond that, try to stick to the facts and remember that this is the internet.
Nothing here is real!
Yes, you are right. It does. If somebody is out there slamming folks & gets a slam bouncing back at them, they should expect it. But when it's just normal people wanting to have a discussion & talk, then they get the jagger....that hurts.
Well, I cannot help that. If you are going to let a person who truly knows nothing about you hurt your feelings then you need to reconsider your thinking. Yo can call me names all you want. You know nothing abot me. I might argue facts with you but I don't care if you call me names because you are stating an opinion on a subject--me--about which you know nothing,
See what I mean? That's the attitude that helps me avoid any hurt feelings.
I don't change when somone insults me. I am exactly the same person after they make their assessment as before.
Are others more likely to change their opinion of me because of what someone else says or because of what I say? Unless they are exposing lies, the answer is plain.
Insecure people worry about what others think. If I did not like myself, I might have reason to feel that others also may not like me. Or, I might believe that opinions of me will be swayed by some vile remark. But again, why would opinions change because of an insult?
Yes, slander can hurt, but only if it is believable and I don't think we get much of that here. We get grade school taunting and bullying at most.
If someone says that I am a fool, I have nothing to fear unless my own words will confirm that.
I think the problem lies where you say:
"a person expresses an opinion, another retaliates with sarcasm"
The person who 'retaliates' with sarcasm is the problem. Or may I say the person who sneers, jeers, & displays any other Junior High behavior like it....that's the problem. But the one who reacts falls right into the trap.
Avoidance is key.
The answer may not be in running away but staying and making this place a better place I guess. I am with Wrylilt "the feelings that get hurt are real', and everyone is here to contribute. so why not make it a fun place to be.?
It IS a fun place to be.
Just realize that anyone who insults you personally really knows nothing abot you so their opinion means little.
Just realize that anyone who says ANYthing to you about ANYthing can usually prove very little.
Also realize that some people here are not here for fun but to give people sh*t in order to get attention or because they think they will get rich or because they have no place else to be.
Some good advice here I think, just ignore would be good. That's holds good for passive voice, Poetic Elements , whats the advice for the active voice
The active voice can still recognize the truth and logic in my advice. The active voice can simply point out the lack of logic in insulting someone about which you know little or nothing. The active voice can stick to the facts and suggest his/her "attackers" do the same.
For people that never joined the high school debate team; your comments are very much appreciated. Thanks for the tips.
Well done sofs you have noticed in two weeks something that it takes others months to notice.
There is advice about entering a forum written by a member of HubPages staff or one of the elite however I am not sure who wrote it or where I read it.
To sum up my take now is 'look before you leap' into a forum, especially a debate and if you do tread carefully. It is probably a good idea to be prepared to exit if you do not like the way things are heating up. As in the real world sometimes it pays to tell yourself that it says more about them than you.
or you can always not participate in forums completely. besides, nobody here ever gets paid for posting in forums anyway, so it's not like it's a necessity. thats one of the reasons why i stopped caring so much about forums, as most of the people i used to talk to a lot are rarely on. and everyone else ignores me, so i don't really consider forums as big of a deal as before. sure, i'll participate in a topic that interests me, but that's it.
You've got a point.. And, you know what ? There are lots of people whose idea of 'fun' is to mock at and ridicule others. Not just HP, most of the other forums are also like that. When there is a clash of views, discussions do turn nasty. Rarely do we see a debate that doesn't get awkward, more so because nobody knows the other person personally.
If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. That easy.
yeah, this coming from the man that could make an onion cry just by looking at it.
How could Misha make an onion cry?? Misha is way cool!
Misha said it.
Plus think about it, why you're here ? It's because of money ? getting published on HP ? or for forums ?
I still think HP is a good place and I stay away from forums where heated debates are happening
'Sticks and stones can break my bones, but names can never hurt me'. I think a lot of folks forgot this old saying
I've written a hub about just this issue, the mud-slinging, etc mostly in the religious and political forums, but I'm sure it occurs in other forums as well, just not as heated as far as I can tell.
I don't hang out here in the forums, but I do visit and comment.
Hey sofs, I had to realize that is just the way it is. Forums are going to be like that either way it goes. There are just different personalities and different opinions and most people like myself will say what needs to be said. I try not to hurt people's feelings but I am honest though. Others may not give a care, but oh well.
Welcome to HP
Thank you Liljen. I just brought up this issue because I felt that we need to act mature, and name calling isn't. Not that I'm involved, i keep myself away from somethings if I dont like it. Just as a matter of concern. Thanx once again for people like you who make us feel welcome. I go out of my way to say so to others too!! Have a great day!
Well, all people are born alike, except christians and atheists, republicans and democrats.
... rich and poor, black and white, short and tall...
Misha should I say All are welcome to the HP family ( without exceptions)
Have a greay day everyone!!
Nice to meet you too sofs, and I agree with you, it's best not to participate in the forums discussion over politics or religion, I don't even open this threads. I love HP too!
I think if people want to be on forums (here or anywhere else) they need to know they're going to see remarks they don't like. I'm not talking about out-and-out personal attacks, which (for the purposes of the forum) are against the rules. There's a lot of "negative" remarks, though, when someone comes on here and posts whatever opinion he's got to post. That's the price of feeling the need post one own's opinion on a forum.
If someone wants to go into the religious (or politics) forum and have a go a it, they're free to do so. How peaceful a discussion does anyone think there's ever going to between different people, with different beliefs, who think their beliefs are the ONLY beliefs and who base their beliefs on what someone else told them (long enough and often enough) what they should believe (or on books someone else wrote ages ago, which they happen to believe are "special" books of one sort or another)?
I don't go to the religious forum because I don't feel like hearing about other people's beliefs. Other people's beliefs irk me. So, what you get on the religious forum is people who go there to spout and push their own beliefs (because most people aren't interested in anyone else's beliefs). Then, when it gets unpleasant (as it always does), people start complaining about how unpleasant it all is. I know of (or least once knew of) another site that keeps everyone of different beliefs in their own "categories". It seems ridiculous to me because it pretty much eliminates all debate and turns into little sections of everyone-all-believing-the-same-thing (but apparently everyone is happy spouting their beliefs to others who believe the same thing) - but then again, there's that thing the people of a lot of beliefs think it's their job to spout and push the beliefs to those who don't believe what they do.
So, it amounts to this: The religion forum is what it is. People need to decide if they want to go there or not, and if they do they shouldn't expect "all nice" when they get there. They can't get their feelings hurt and they have to let unpleasant remarks roll of their back. Grown-ups on the Internet can't allow their feelings to be hurt when they're insulted. There is no making something like the religious free-for-all that's open to "the whole world" better. It is what is.
I have found HubPages to be a wonderful place. Nothing more to say.
Thank you Disturbia. It's great to see you again. How are you today?
sofs, there will always be people who, for whatever reason, will try to get under your skin. It's just a fact of life.
If you spend enough time here in the forums, you begin to understand that there are certain groups of people here who just like to argue with each other. Doesn't matter what the subject or topic, it's just the way they interact and I guess for the most part, they all have some history with each other.
There have been a few times when I've been attacked by defensive people for nothing more than saying "I don't agree with you." or something I've said might have been misunderstood by someone. That can happen. But I will never let anybody bait me into an argument. I say, everyone should feel free to express themselves, just understand that not everybody is going to agree with you and leave it at that.
I think it is important to point out that in the religion threads there is often a response which is not sarcastic before things disintegrate. The majority of people in the western world do NOT have any religious tendencies.
So when they argue it is often not sarcastic, it is merely contradicting the initial argument or statement.
Yes there is just as much in the way of heated debate here as in anywhere else, but in a lot of the religious threads the OP gets all defensive and victimized simply because nearly everybody else disagrees with them.
They don't seem to realize that their point of view is not accepted by the majority of people, and seem genuinely shocked when people disagree with that fact.
"They don't seem to realize that their point of view is not accepted by the majority of people, and seem genuinely shocked when people disagree with that fact."
As an American I would have to disagree with that statement, a majority of American identify them selves as christian.
I would say that a majority of the worlds population believes in a deity.
Even on this site I think the majority believe in a deity.
There just happens to be a very vocal minority differing with the believers.
Most recent surveys in Western Europe have hit less than 1 in 10 people viewing themselves as actively religious, less than 1 in 7 having any religious feelings.
In America my overall impression is that religion is prevailent in small enclosed towns, however in cities I have been hard pressed to find much evidence of religion in the 5 cities I have visited so far.
Infact the most worrying thing I have seen in America is that there is still a 'fear' among many atheists and agnostics to show their lack of religious belief openly due to the views of people back in the smaller towns. I have had fully grown 50 year old friends over here talk openly about their ridicule of religion in person, but also mention not to put it on facebook because of people 'back home'.
I think it is safe to say that while religion is still highly prevailent with it's stranglehold on America, it is more of a facade than a lot of people would like to admit.
Just to put things in perspective, of my college with over 5000 pupils back in England there was an entire one person who was actually religious. There was no one in my high school (Around 2500 students) and one person in my primary school (about 200 students).
In the office I worked in there were 2 religious people, one a woman who was disabled, the other an older woman who had lost her family.
Christianity has very much diminished as a religion, even to the point that chrches are being sold off with alarming regularity (three churches in York for instance had been sold off, one as a restaurant the other as a bar/nightclub, not entirely sure what the other became).
Islam still has a relatively strong hold on it's people, and I have only visited a few Muslim countries, so do not feel I can talk succinctly about religious strengths in these countries. However the little I have seen has supported that they are very openly religious, compared to in America or the european countries I have visited.
The term religious means to me someone practicing in religion. I don't think everybody who believes in God is an active member of a church or whatever.
I could be completely wrong about my previous statements but I still believe them to be true. My experience in the few countries I have visited Mexico,Italy,etc have all been very religious.
What 5 US cities have you visited?
I dunno. I have to agree with Jim - people may not belong to a church, but most of them say they believe in some sort of deity and still will say they are not religious.
I might wish it were otherwise, but in the US, I don't find many atheists. The rest of the world is apparently much different. Could that other person be in Sweden maybe? Said to be 85% atheist.. Must be very refreshing.
Not necessarily atheist, just not religious. I don't think it really delved in to other spiritual areas!
When it comes to people not going to church but still believing, what about the people who go to church but don't believe?
The cities I have been to so far are all in Texas, although in a few weeks I will be heading over to California for 10 days to see some more of the US!
Religion is definitely more prevailent in the United States, but I definitely don't think it is practiced by the majority.
Well, what matters to me is the depth. I don't mind someone with a soft belief system. It can be comforting for them and doesn't usually affect the rest of us. It is the rabid fundamentalists who worry me and that figure is said to be around 30%. That is too much for comfort.
In Catholic countries like the ones you've mentioned, the Catholic church has a very high profile and there is social pressure to be part of the Catholic community. In countries which are predominantly Protestant (which, by definition, have a long tradition of questioning religion), you'll find people are much less "religious".
I'm not sure how many dyed-in-the-wool atheists you'll find, but I know a heck of a lot of people who would call themselves Christian on a census, because that's how they were brought up, but they never go near a church and aren't really sure whether God exists or not.
My impression of America is that there is social pressure to be religious, but you wonder what people are thinking privately.
...and, a lot of people just take offense to ever hearing an opinion that doesn't happen to be the same as theirs. One person's "debate" or "discussion" can be another person's "disagreement". Sometimes it's good to hang around for a while and get a reading on who's just trying to have what they think is a real discussion and who's out to "just attack people for the fun of it". As with everything new (and two weeks is pretty new), it can take a little while to settle in comfortably. I just signed up with another site, took a look at their forums, and decided I won't be doing anything on there for a good, long, time. I was on here for about a year before I did more than ask about two technical questions related to doing things on HubPages. I'm not, of course, recommending people wait a year before participating; but the point is going with a first, early, impression isn't always the best thing to do.
so, sofs, you have met a few of the forum "thugs" eh? I agree that these people who post often and furiously (usually at each other, so all you have to do is not get in between them) are a pain in the u know what! But nothing to do about it. I think from now on (since I am just back from being baited into some mouthing off) I will just bore them too death with positive jolly silliness, which just causes those guys to shrivel and disappear.
I advise you to do the same and also stay out of any threads that ask leading questions like "Why does God hate people who sleep on the right side of the bed?" and "How can you stand to have a president who . . ." and "Who was the oaf who put overalls in Mistress Murphy's Chowder? and how can we get to him/her?" (that last one could be spy code, for all I know!!) oh, I know those aren't actual forum thread titles - but they're not much sillier than some of the real ones!
mega1, I like your idea of boring people to death with "positive jolly silliness."
My thought was more on these lines .... if I don't like a topic I don't get into a debate over it. Live and let live.
I always thought if you wanted to preach , you could do it by the life you lead.
No I am not just talking about religious threads... even other discussions disintegrate into a war of words.
I don't see this now as much as I did many years ago. there are certainly sections of the US more 'religious' than others, but I don't see it as a social pressure.
There are plenty of non-religious Americans and many different religions here. Also there seems to be more of a distinction now between being spiritual but not religious.
I don't feel pressured, personally, to be religious. But I used to, when I was a lot younger. I often thought then in my church-going days that people in my community were huge hypocrits about religion and they only put on a religious display because it was socially correct - they didn't really live by the principals of the religion. Nowadays I think the media keeps religion of all kinds alive, as well as some of the dispute between different fervent religions.
I'm beginning to realize that true freedom is not worrying about other's gender preference, religious preference, skin color, or the car they drive. If I confuse myself with opinions about what is right or wrong on those fronts, I'm just limiting my own freedom, since I won't be able to really participate in a diverse community if I can't see what's really there.
I think for the most part the majority of the people behave very nicely and use decorum on the forums.
It is also good to consider the source and stay out of heated forums such as political debates and religious debates.
I do, however, agree with you sef.
Now where I have an issue................ is where some people are down right mean and discouraging. This is on just normal forum posts which are not political or religious. They are sarcastic and perpetually bad behaving. There is a fine line between someone attacking a person or either baiting and just being down right nasty.
Debate is going to happen on many forum topics. People have different opinions. I just think that people should exercise some restraint when making comments.
With that said, most people do. People can ignore most of the bad behavior and stay off of the hot topics. However, I would have to say there are a few bad spirited people who just want to make people feel bad and they are exercising a right. This right is detrimental to the overall community and it also makes the forums a mess of few malcontents who are disjointed from the rest of the community. While we can ignore them, it certainly ruins the experience and quite frankly that is too bad.
The reason why I thought I will bring this up for discussion was becuase I know HP is a great place. Why muddy it... especially when we can choose to be different and a trail blazer..... too ambitious..???? HP has the potential. We can do it... I believe
You are correct and there are many good people here also. I think maybe a few good people can make even that much better. I am on board.
I find that I am often persecuted from both sides on the Forums due to my the my hedonistic lifestyle and religious affiliation.
I persevere, however.
Sofs-this is a very good observation and topic of discussion. When I got involved in one of the 'hot' topics recently, I ended up being blasted for my remarks by another member, in a very personal way. It did sting and I almost pulled out of forum discussions completely. But, I did not want to withdraw from something that I really enjoy participating in. So, now I am more select with where I go.
And, like you, I did not know there was a 'report' button. I am aware of the 'flag' but still am not sure if this is one and the same. I'm not sure I would have reported the other persons activity anyway. I figured it was just that person's problem in what I perceived as an overreaction to my comments. It wasn't a pleasant experience, but not everything in life is, and besides, it gives me room to explore my part in it.
"Call me a pot, just don't put me into the oven". That's a Russian proverb.
We all are different here and that's the beauty of it. Without heated discussions, there will be no forums. Some people just have absolute intolerance towards agressive stupidity and social miopia and blow up right away, on the contact. Scared, hurt - stay away from forums,true.
I am on the same page as you Denise, I basically believe we don't need to have an opinion on every subject or on what doesn't concern us. I personally would not get into a war of words if I didn't subscribe to that opinion. You can disagree, but respect the other person. no personal attacks would be great!
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