Do You Control Your Thoughts?

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marinealways24posted 15 years ago
Do you control your thoughts or do your thoughts control you?

In cases of depression, is this simply a matter of not being able to control thought along with some chemical inbalances?
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  double_frickposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  i think this is SO true!
  is it is a problem of the chicken and the egg though? i mean, is it the chemical imbalance that causes the lack of control of ones thoughts or does losing control of ones thoughts throw off the chemical balance in the brain?
  
  i think it is a very important step in ones soul evolution to be able to master ones thoughts.
  
  there are great stretches of time i am able to. and still great stretches of time, like one i'm in right now, where its a battle and i'm apparently losing.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Great thoughts on what causes the imbalance. Maybe if the individual has control of the thoughts to balance them, there wouldn't be the imbalance. You look pretty young, I think you are ahead of the game if you are already analyzing and learning from your thoughts. I think some live their entire lives never understanding their thoughts.
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  double_frickposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  thank you. i guess my turbulent teen years allowed a lot of experience and introspection from a young age. that is true though, not many people are or will ever step foot on the path i am on. in fact, most scoff at my insanity, or eccentricity at best.
  
  thoughts are very powerful things, much more than most give them credit. though they are never too powerful for one to master, and through mastery of one's thoughts i have found that one can practically gain mastery over almost every aspect of life. but like i said, there are times when there is not enough strength or morale to keep the reigns. but i guess that is balance. lol
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You are welcome, thank you. I think the most important part of understanding thoughts is finding honesty in them. I think a lot of our thoughts lie to us, I think the most important part of understanding them is debate. I think the dabate needs balance also or it could drive the thoughts insane. I agree with what you wrote, great thoughts again.
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  Hauntyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Sometimes I manage to control my thoughts, but that's not always. You won't catch me always being positive and all that. If only you could.
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  de'Arabposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I don't thnk that you can nessessarily control your thoughts but that does not undermind the fact that you can not control your actions.
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  de'Arabposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What I meant to say is that you CAN control your actions.
  Wtih respect to depression same thing appies; you can't control your thoughts.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  My comment was not meant for you, but for the whole thread .
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  _cheryl_posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I can't speak on depression. But what I do believe for most, is that we sometimes let our thoughts take control, it's a natural. We are human. Which is'nt always a bad thing, depending on what our thoughts contain. Overall no matter how strong minded we are, I think it's important to continually, daily be in control of our overall thinking. I feel it makes for a more positive outcome. I also think people need to stop and compare their thoughts in some cases with what they know. Our minds can get the best of us if we let it run off where it wants without holding ground to what is truth.............."Be careful of your thoughts because it can turn into words. Be careful of your words because it can turn into actions. Be careful of your actions because it can turn into habit. Be careful of your habits because it can turn into character."
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  Twenty One Daysposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Both.
  the system of thought is continuous; so safe to say that you are determining which patterns to collect and at the same time, the brain is 'reorganizing' other patterns of thought to connect/ disconnect from the ones you are connecting/organizing. like dna constantly restructuring itself to maintain its form.
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  MikeNVposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I sure hope you do, because when your thoughts control you ... boy you have to seriously start to worry.
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  goldenpathposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Chemical imbalance is real and so is mental dysfunction. However, for us who otherwise function well in society should not take that diagnosis upon our selves. That, would be an excuse.
  
  By and large the vast number of us have the capability and capacity to control our thoughts. It takes years of discipline and focusing of one's life in certain directions but it can be done and should be done.
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sneakorocksolidposted 15 years ago
I listen to the rythmn of the cosmic waves, it's all there you just have to open your mind and let them flow.
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Will Apseposted 15 years ago
The medical model of depression is very useful for drug companies who want to sell their products and also useful for doctors who want a quick fix for their patients.

Another way of looking at depression is that it is a general defense against feelings that are too difficult to deal with, especially angry feelings of a kind that provoke guilt.

So take the drugs or learn to be strong enough to live with who you are.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think taking drugs to cover up issues is a solution to anything. I also don't think it's being honest with yourself. If the depressed thoughts could be turned in to positive thoughts, would depression exist?
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  donotfearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Covering up the issues is not the intention of taking antidepressants. It is a medication used to regulate brain chemicals (serotonin) similar to other medications that regulate levels not related to brain (thyroid, blood pressure). It simply allows the serotonin to remain in the brain longer in order to create a more normal, pleasant thought process. During this time, one may learn to think more rationally through therapy. Once a stable level is sustained for a period of time approved by your doctor, then one may consider the possibility of weaning off the medication. Antidepressants are not addictive, though stopping altogether could create a serotonin crisis! I speak from personal experience and as a mental health clinician. I would remind anyone that therapy is very important in recovery.
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  double_frickposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  however, once most people are not feeling the discomfort of the lack of serotonin they do not have the motivation to make the behavior, thought or life changes. so in that way it IS just a distraction from working on ones real problems.
  i actually read something recently that theorizes that depression is a necessary "evil" as it catalyzes personal growth and evolution. the discomfort or pain of depression is a symptom, a warning, if you will. that something is not operating as it should in ones life, like the CHECK OIL LIGHT.
  now, you could just refill that oil, like you could stuff someone full of drugs. IF it is a temporary problem like the fluid is simply low then this may help.
  however, most people with serious enough depression to seek treatment are not low on fluid, they have a LEAK.
  no amount of refilling will repair the leak, though it may buy the car more time before "breaking down"
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  Will Apseposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It's not the drugs themselves that I object to. It is the medical model of mental illnesses. We all know that bad experiences can have bad psychological consequences and rather than saying when brain chemistry goes wrong it produces mental illness, it is more sensible to say that bad experiences provoke feelings that are difficult to deal with and the struggle to do so changes brain chemistry.
  
  Why is this important? Well one reason is that the 'broken brain' approach doesn't help the sufferer. The evidence is that people who see another as having an abnormal brain are crueler and less helpful than those who believe they are dealing with someone who is struggling to deal with traumatic events.
  
  There is a long but very interesting article here: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/10/magaz … gewanted=1
  
  Another reason I don't like the medical model is that drugs alone don't usually help long term for depression. The drugs can quiet things down but some kind of counselling or therapy and facing the bad stuff is the cure. You describe this eloquently in your hub, donotfear.
  
  The medical model of depression and mental illness is damaging to human dignity as well as truth. We are not sackfuls of chemicals. We think, feel and live complex lives and that is how we should seen.
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  apaceposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Deborah, I agree wholeheartedly with what your are saying about serotonin and it's connection with thought processes more conducive to rational constructive and 'pleasant' thinking (for want of a better word)
  
  I am just a little concerned about the difficulty in establishing with precision 'cause and effect' when it comes to distinguishing endogenous and exogenous depression. I know some disease processes can have an organic basis but it seems that there is no bright line distinction. Does it really matter some mental health clinicians would ask?
  
  Whether or not a person has a pre-disposition to depression and a depressive episode is triggered by a traumatic event, shouldn't we use drugs to correct what could have become a biochemical depression?
  
  I am not so sure I know the answer to that question, and I am not in the mental health field so cannot claim much expertise. However, at the risk of sounding anti-psychiatry and skeptical of big pharmas and the DSM bible of psychiatric disorders, I think medical people have a clear duty of care to patients to gain their informed consent to taking any form of prescription medication, and weigh up the benefits and disadvantages for that individual.
  
  Many clinicians no doubt do that, but I have witnessed some frightening examples where someone who would clearly benefit more from some kind of cognitive or other therapy which isn't tied to a pill, takes these magic pills believing them to be a silver bullet.
  
  I know that you aren't advocating that they are. I am just a little suspicious about big pharma and how they conceal the adverse effects of these drugs from patients and sometimes the regulatory authorities. I had better not get on my soapbox as I will start prattling on about privatised health and kickbacks and go way off topic.
  
  However I think it is important to bear in mind that these are psychotropic drugs and the mechanism of action and effect varies greatly from one individual to another. I think psychiatry has had some breakthroughs in the areas of developing drugs to control or alleviate the symptoms of manic depression and schizophrenia but not the root cause. There are some promising technologies, prohibitively expensive, on the horizon though in the area of 3D brain imaging.
  
  In the area of depression, a lot of people benefit from simply re-orienting their thought processes. I still fall victim to negative ruminations and it takes a conscious effort to break that cycle and go for a run, get the endorphins flowing and I snap out of it. Before the advent of the newer SSRIs there were the old mono oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs) which as you would recall had some pretty dangerous interactions and withdrawal symptoms. Every year you read of the 'new' anti-depressant, anti-anxiolytic that comes out, the one with 'no side effects', the breakthrough safety drug of the century.
  
  However all are discovered to have some serious side effects.
  
  Anti-depressants can and do save lives and I am sure there are many people who have benefited greatly from them. We learn from scientific advances through mistakes. However I think it is a joint responsibility of pharmas and Practitioners to be responsible in the way that they market the benefits of these drugs. Doctors in particular need to be judicious in the way they hand them out, some reflexively, and in ensuring that the patient understand all of the implications, including side effects, interactions and alternative options. Some Doctors are great whereas others can be very paternalistic when lauding the benefits of these tablets which are after all altering the chemistry of our brains.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  First, you are replying to someone else not to me and I never mentioned the serotonin. But brain chemicals such as serotonin and norepinephrine (Neurotransmitters), are released at the end of a nerve fiber once an impulse has been sent to the brain and a lack of those chemicals keep the nerves from talking to each other. Once the reuptake inhibitors are prescribed it can take up to about 8 weeks to see any difference. Since there aren't any blood tests to know if someone is depressed, the doctor is trained to assess the symptoms. It may take trying different meds to get the one that is right for any given person. So yes, it can be hard to find the one that will help.
  
  Some people think if they aren't sad anymore they have overcome the problem. Sadness is only one indicator of depression. There are many others. Not sleeping is one. Anger another etc.
  
  Encouraging someone not to take their meds would be a big mistake.
  Doctors don't give patients meds to make a lot of money. No conspiracy theory here. Oh and suspicion can also be a sign of depression. Magical pill??
  You guys do know that in order for the nerves in the brain to talk to each other, it has to send out a chemical, right? An impulse is sent to the brain, the brain sends it to where it is suppose to go by sending a chemical from the tip of the nerve fiber because the nerves aren't connected. No chemicals, no way for nerves to talk.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  YES it would exist. It's not the thoughts that brings depression, it's the depression that brings the thoughts.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Clinical Depression is a Chemical imbalance which can not be controlled. Obviously you've never been depressed. Hopefully none of your family members will become depressed because if you believe what you said, you wouldn't encourage them to get help..CHIN UP, it'll get better...
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  mega1posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I just want to say that not taking the drugs is not necessarily a bad thing - the drugs never helped me or anyone else in my family, really. I feel they may calm you for temporary results but over time all sorts of side effects happen. The ONLY thing that helps in the long-term is really examining yourself (with the help of a professional, of course) in order to find out how you got into this really addictive habit of depression. It is indeed a kind of self-indulgent behavior involving narcissism, low self-esteem, and actual bad life experiences that sometimes cause the PTSD that often goes along with depression. So I don't pay too much attention to terms like "clinical depression" because I know that the psychiatric community changes it's words for things very often - it takes actions to help solve this problem of depression. Too often those who only take the drugs just get into more psychological difficulties and don't really change their lives in positive ways.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'm a registered nurse and I have met many depressed people. If someone can overcome without meds, it's not clinical depression.
  Treatment is sometimes hard to establish. The right meds or combination of meds needs to be found.
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  mega1posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  listen, I am not going to go on and on here about this, but I hope you will just re-examine the subject with others who do not always use prescriptives - maybe you'll see what I mean, obviously you are taking a text-book approach and I won't convince you - all I have is my own lengthy experience and the experiences of others I have known. I'm not claiming to be a professional, and I'm not putting down your knowledge, I'm just saying, look a little further.
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  Sara Tonynposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  THANK YOU!
  
  It REALLY ticks me off when people who haven't personally experienced clinical depression say that it's curable by thinking differently.
  
  IT IS NOT. I know this firsthand.
  
  DAMN, I'm pissed!
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  double_frickposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  this is the reason why i disagree with medication.
  if people used it to lessen some of the pain associated with depression so that one CAN have the motivation and energy to change then more power to them. but i would insist that they be careful the medication does not exacerbate an already unstable brain environment.
  
  THOUGHTS can change brain chemistry.
  it is only an illusion that the thoughts are CAUSED by brain chemistry.
  emotions are the symptom of the quality of our thoughts.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  OK
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  mega1posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You say it very well - it is my own thoughts that get me into trouble with depression, and my own thought that bring me through it and back into the sunshine!
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  double_frickposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  yes, i can be in the deepest depression and with good old handy self-responsibility that i've acquired through introspection i can know for certain that it was my own thoughts that brought it on. i can usually pin point the exact moment that the change "for the worse" occurs. does it make it any less of a chemical imbalance? no, i have clear sight enough to understand that science does not fully understand the mechanics of something that i deal with every day. something that ONLY my SELF and my own understanding and hard work has been able to remedy, not completely. i still suffer from my monster, my evil twin, that i call bipolar depression (i dont mind the 'mania too much, even if others may lol) medication only made it harder for me to make the progress i have.
  
  i guess the point is not all are strong enough or on the path to soul growth and evolution and so a band aid or a way to just get through life as painlessly as possible may be a good solution for them, even if it does result in near zombification.
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SandyMcCollumposted 15 years ago
I don't think so. Sometimes my thoughts may control my actions, but for the most part I try to keep a handle on the thoughts. It can make the diff between a good day and a bad one. When one lets it fly, so to speak, crazy things can happen... Some depression is a chemical imbalance, that is easily fixed by drugs. True emotional sadness cannot be removed, just pacified by drugs until one can learn to handle the thoughts better, or is strong enough to handle them.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  When you say "crazy things can happen", are you talking about acting on impulsive thoughts rather than rational thinking? I don't know if I would say some sadness can't be removed, maybe it can when it's understood why it's caused.
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Ivorwenposted 15 years ago
While I may not always control my thoughts, I do work at 'taking every thought captive' and evaluating it according to what I know. In this manner, I am able to keep my feelings and actions in check. When I do not take charge of my thoughts they are all over the place, and lead to all sorts of emotions and behavior, both good and bad.
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tobey100posted 15 years ago
I think so.
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Bard of Elyposted 15 years ago
I would say yes, when I am awake but when I am asleep that is a different matter and my dreams are always very weird.
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mega1posted 15 years ago
I have suffered from severe depression(s) in my life and have recently gotten some relief through an intense process of self-examination, using techniques taught to me by a therapist and inventing my own methods that suit me. Control is a big issue, not only self-control, but also the control one can exert on the world outside oneself. Everyone needs to feel that they have adequate control of both self and their world, and for everyone this amount of control and the way it is weilded varies. Different people need more or less control. I came to find that depression (for me) is an addiction, it doesn't seem right that I would want to make myself feel bad and then keep feeling bad with thought patterns that always led into deep, dark ruts of low self-esteem (well, this is turning into a hub, huh) but anyway what I do is try to recognize when I first start to feel down whether it is these thoughts, diet, lack of exercise, or a certain event or events that are causing it. Then I can take the control back and do what I need to do to feel better. I will have to write in more detail for you about the mental and physical exercises I use.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Then you were not clinically depressed due to Chemical Imbalance.
  Which is not true depression.
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  mega1posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You are making a diagnosis of me based on a paragraph I wrote here? I hope you are not a "clinical" therapist, psychiatrist or otherwise in a position to tell people what you think about them!! Because I know you are absolutely wrong to say this, and wrong in your definition of "true depression"
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Deborah Sextonposted 15 years ago
Clinical depression which is experienced by a person diagnosed with a Chemical imbalance causes severe despondency and dejection,felt over a period of time and accompanied by feelings of hopelessness and inadequacy. This many, many times leads to suicide.
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  double_frickposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  i'm very familiar with this depression you speak of, and then some. i'm in the absolute depths of it right now...well...being on these forums and hubbing does help, a bit. but as soon as i go back to "my life" its back to simultaneously taking the roles of beauty AND the beast.
  
  i guess i cannot speak for everyone suffering with mental illness.
  but for myself and the people in my life that i have seen suffering similar ills medication only exacerbated the situation or completely snuffed out their light completely. i miss my mom, when i look into her eyes she is absolutely not there, its terrifying. thanks to medication.
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  mega1posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  my experiences are like yours - and I totally understand - it is like training for a marathon that never happens fighting depression! Even talking about it in this way and having to defend what I know is right for myself triggers a kind of crappiness I don't want to feel! It never stops, does it? I know you and I aren't the only ones on HP who deal with depression on a daily basis - there are many others! And it is very positive affirmation to talk with you all!
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  mega1posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  Are you quoting a psych book?
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  Deborah Sextonposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Uhh NO.
  To become a RN you have to take many different areas of study.
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  Maximus591posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  For someone who claims to be a nurse your understanding of what causes clinical depression is woefully inadequate. Are you quoting big pharma here? Multi million dollar pharmaceutical companies would have you believe that chemical imbalances are at the root of depression. Afterall, they have a lot of $$$$$ riding on the fact neurotansmitters such as serotonin and the way they are regulated in the brain controls your mood. This is drivel.
  
  People are becoming more miserable / depressed / sad / suicidal etc not because their brain chemicals are imbalanced. Before 1945 people suffered with depression. Post 1945 you are up to (depending on which survey you choose to believe) TEN TIMES more likely to suffer with depression. The brain cannot undergo such a staggering evolution in just 60 years that it produces more or less of certain chemicals that it influences one's mood so radically. No, the serotonin theory is a myth. Totally unsupported by any empirical evidence. Don't let big pharma do a number on you.
  
  Brutal tho this may seem, I suspect some people 'choose' their depression and wear it as a badge of honour. It allows them to play the role of victim and not change by blaming their condition on something they believe they have no control over.
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  mega1posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You may be very right, but I would take this theory just a little further - I believe some of this is within their control but much of it is behavior modeled by parents and others close to them that creates their low self-esteem and belief that they are victims - when one thinks of oneself as a victim then bad experiences follows and the depression becomes deep - thinking patterns can be changed - but drugs don't really help to change your thinking.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Clinical depression is caused by the inability of the nerve fibers to send the impulses where they are to go. Chemicals are the neurotransmitters. Being a nurse I understand how human brains and minds work. Serotonin is not a myth. What medical credentials do you hold? There is depression without it being clinical.
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  Maximus591posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Being a nurse you seem to understand very little, which is quite alarming.
  
  Currently no-one knows what causes depression (clinical or otherwise). In fact, I think I might need to repeat that statement for the hard of hearing... No-one knows what causes depression.
  
  There are theories. Many in fact. But a theory is not the same as hard empirical data which clearly shows what causes depression.
  The serotonion argument is also theory. It's NOT fact. Large pharmaceutical companies would have you believe it's fact, but that's not surprising given the investment they have made in ramming the serotonin theory down Doctors throats.
  
  In fact, your argument.... altho argument is not strictly true, but your theory, seems 10 years out of date. Remind me again, did you say you were a nurse?
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  Deborah Sextonposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It's not out of date. Yes I am a nurse and I've been one for many years.
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B.C. BOUTIQUEposted 15 years ago
It is possible, in certain circumstances to control your thoughts, many people like that are in a trauma situation or have mental issues..

I always thought that your thoughts controlled you subconciously..
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Deborah Sextonposted 15 years ago
Text book approach? No actually after my sister became clinically depressed and sought therapy, she finally in November 2007 put a gun in her mouth and blew her brains out. She was never given meds.

My brother in law in 2006 after being married to my sweet younger sister for just one year,left her a suicide note and killed himself by drinking poison.

Both were deeply depressed and were not given meds. My brother in law was highly spiritual (not religious, he was Metaphysical very strong mind at one time)

Plus all those people who go into the ER at the hospital.

The cases you guys speak of are not the norm.
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  mega1posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Oh crap - I'm really sorry about your relatives - several of my relatives commited suicide too - I just don't think we'll ever agree on this so I'm not going into the details here - It may very well be that you just make decisions for yourself - if YOU ever feel depressed and think drugs is the way to go, you are welcome to em! I just know it doesn't work with me, and I don't appreciate being told that I did not have "clinical depression" - its very condescending the way you talk, but I'm sure you didn't intend to sound like that - again, sorry you suffered those suicides in your life - I know your pain.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I've been through a lot but I've never been depressed.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not saying we don't need to talk to others or try to change our thoughts but usually several avenues are prescribed for a patient who is depressed. Medication, Psychotherapy, exercise, diet etc. One type of therapy rarely helps. For someone spiritual depression doesn't take hold as firmly, but not everyone is spiritual. You can tell someone who feels hopeless, a thousand times a day to think positive and they won't. A person has to believe something, take it as fact, before they can allow it to affect them. Positive thinking is not faith. Telling someone they can get better if they think positive will only make them see how hopeless it is if they don't believe it. Even with a brain that has no imbalance, faith or feeling something is fact is the only way to change thought patterns.
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  apaceposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  This is a very sensitive area. We all have our sad stories to tell.
  
  MEGA1 - I think you make a very valid point. As with Deborah, there is a commonality and you have both had some horrific experiences.
  
  However as you point out the key is decision making capacity. I think we should all jealously guard our ability to make autonomous decisions when it comes to our healths and our lives. Psychiatry and allied mental health experts are sometimes loathe to recognise that. You would have to have an extremely compelling argument to deprive someone of the ability to make decisions for themselves. Psychiatric treatment is inherently unpredictable. It is foolish to think you have all the answers when it comes to what is happening or likely to happen to a person suffering depression, let alone what kind of treatment modality is best for them.
  
  Even those with recognised expertise in a given area should remain open minded. Being a true professional means being open to criticism and new ideas. The greatest innovators in society have often been the ones to step outside the established dogma and were often persecuted for it. Galileo was persecuted because he didn't believe the stars were some immutable imprint in the sky, and commented on the way they were behaving. The Church had astronomers and they knew the truth, but that didn't stop them from ostracising him.
  
  I was a Lawyer by profession (contemplating whether to be a born again Lawyer) and the firm I worked for was involved in representing a victim of the horrific Ward 10B case in Northern Queensland. Although this was an extreme case, it opened my eyes, heart and mind to the potential abuses of psychiatry, even those who are well intentioned. I am still open to ideas and alternate viewpoints, whether in law, or basket weaving. I have seen some psychiatrists who are incredibly paternalistic and I think have less efficacy than your local GP, social worker, or pet.
  
  Maybe the answer is to put cats and dogs on the medicare roll.
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mega1posted 15 years ago
You're fortunate Deborah - I hope you never do get depression, of any kind, clinical or otherwise - it is a real bitch!
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lyricsingrayposted 15 years ago
I try not to.
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hinckles komaposted 15 years ago
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Mishaposted 15 years ago
LOL
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constancemaryposted 15 years ago
I am a Christian, a pastoral counsellor, a family therapist and a depressive. I have been suicidal. Not all my faith, nor all my training could prevent my spiralling down into the abyss. At my most despairing, I could not stop my brain from thinking over and over again a hundred or a thousand times a day: "I want to die. I want to die."

What worked:
1.) proper medication to deal with both anxiety and depression
2.) good psychotherapy which respected my faith and helped me to think in a more balanced way.
3.) major changes in lifestyle...including a move from doing psychotherapy with children and families with a high level of dysfunction and abuse
4. cognitive behavioural therapy...literally working to change lifelong negative thoughts to more balanced thoughts
5.) a faith base which is stronger on grace and less mired in rules
6.) structured times for reflection and focused gratitude
7.) non-judgmental support from family and a good husband
8.) the passage of time

God bless all those who struggle with this difficult and dangerous disease.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You are so correct. It takes more than one type of treatment.
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  Sara Tonynposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  There you go. Straight from a therapist. All the positive thinking, etc, in the world cannot stop a physical disorder (the chemical imbalance).
  
  People who haven't suffered from clinical depression have no idea what's involved.
  
  An excellent combination of treatments. I'm so glad you're feeling better!
  
  Amen.
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lyricsingrayposted 15 years ago
I'm still thinking about it.
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mega1posted 15 years ago
Deborah - once again you speak in such a condescending way! Do you realize that you are speaking with adults here, some of whom are suffering from ongoing depression, some have tried just about every therapy and medication and still suffer. We KNOW about chemicals and receptors and how messages get around in our bodies - so don't be condescending ok? I don't know what you're trying to say - it sounds like you're thinking someone here has tried to discourage people from taking their medications! NOT SO! no one has said that! a couple of us have said that medications don't work for them, only for them - NO ONE else is trying to diagnose or prescribe any kind of treatment for anyone else, except maybe you! so please get over it!
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  Deborah Sextonposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You can't speak for everyone and obviously not everyone understands this. I will say to you also, don't speak to me that way. Yes there are some who have said they should not take meds. Don't come jumping on me because I haven't jumped on anyone especially not you. You are doing what you accuse me of and you don't even know who I am. I was saying it's not a good idea to just try to change your thoughts. Changing our thoughts or stopping the minds chatter is the hardest thing to do.
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Uvaposted 15 years ago
Whoa.. great discussion everybody. I find it very entertaining how much everyone knows on this subject. Really, I just read about 20 pages I think. So the original question was ?

Do you control your thoughts ? I had always felt that it was a battle, between chemicals, hunger, hormones, and will power. If I got something done, painted a painting, won a race, or even something simple like making a pot of good soup. Doing something, or work against the chemicals in my body and brain. So, in other words, I controlled the reins on the wild horse that was my human animal. To that extent, I controlled my own thoughts, yes.

Then I got seriously wounded. After multiple surgeries and ( for what ever reason I dislike pain pills, so, after alternating between as much pain as I could stand and pain pills that I didn't like).

I went completely emotionally numb. Not, sad, not angry really, not happy, not anything. It was for a few months there, long enough so that it was really weird starting to feel the pull of emotions again.

Now, I consider that question. Do I control my thoughts ? and my answer is, when a person shuts down emotionally , no.

So to contrast the two extremes. As a normal healthy person, versus an injured person. There is a definite simultaneous contrary here with a minimum of three answers.

shut down not functioning / healthy emotional being / stop start manic chemicals that are drowning or electrocuting the brain or whatever is the opposite of shut down.

I think there is an art to the hard work to be about to control our thoughts.

I think that there are patters or cycles that greatly effect the range of what is possible.

And I think for some people, sometimes they may benefit from chemicals, but the dependancy and the depletion of the natural brain function cycle scares me. I don't think it's so much a line as it is in functioning versus not. hm.. did that even make any sense at all ? sorry if not.

I want a beer.
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tantrumposted 15 years ago
Do You Control Your Thoughts?

Yes !
I'm controlling my thoughts right now. I'm avoiding thinking what a lot of nonsense I'm reading !

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Justine76posted 15 years ago
ive given up on controlling my thoughts, im going to work on controlling everyone elses....
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  mega1posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  YES, MASTER!
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DaniellaWoodposted 15 years ago
Yes, you can always control your own thoughts. I've studied a lot about the brain and am not claiming to be an expert, but here's my take on it...

Even when you're depressed, you can control your thoughts. You just lose the power to think you can. The brain is such a powerful organ, humans only use 10% of their ability - the brain has apporximately 100 billion neurons! So based on the fact that your brain is emmensly powerful, if you think, "I'm depressed," "I can't think," "I hate my life," then you WILL be depressed, WON'T be able to think and WILL hate your life.

The hardest part of it is being able to say the words "I am in control". But if you can do that - TELL your brain who's in control - your brain will believe you, just like it believed you when you said "I hate my life" etc, and you can once again regain the knowledge that you are actually in control of your thoughts. No one else. YOU. It is difficult, I know. Your brain is amazing if it's on your side. But if it 'turns against' you, it can be hell. But you are always capable to rise above it. Always.

~ [From the Bible] The Lord asked a Great warrior, "Dare you take on the greatest and most dangerous foe that you could ever face?"
"Yes," replied the warrior.
"So be it," said the Lord. "You shall face yourself." ~
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  Deborah Sextonposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  First the 10% of the brain stuff is untrue. The brain is physical. No one can control the Mind chatter if they have not worked hard to train their minds. It is a very rare thing and only Adepts can do it and only once in a while. Not everyone who is clinically depressed reads the Bible.
  Clinical depression is a disease.
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  Maximus591posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Most depressed people still have cognitive awareness. Even the most severely depressed individual who finds himself in a catatonic depression is still likely to have some sense of cognitive awareness. Having cognitive awareness means you have the ability to think and consequently, have some degree of control over what you think (Your thoughts)
  
  However, the individual who finds themselves experiencing an extreme psychotic episode may have no cognitive awareness at all. Their mind may be hallucinating, they may have 'thought's' but those thoughts may not be rooted in reality. Does this then mean they lack control of their thoughts because an implied mental illness is in control of their thoughts? Hmmm.
  
  So, I guess you need to define what you mean by 'Do you control your thoughts'?
  
  To add even a little more spice and mystery, some modern thinkers on mental illness, in particular psychosis, have suggested that psychosis is just a very extreme form of human consciousness that falls outside of conventional consciousness... or a consciousness that is perceived to be normal, as it were.
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  Sara Tonynposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You're doing so much harm to people who suffer from clinical depression. Please stop.
  
  You are clueless as to what it feels like. You are clueless as to what it is. Your knowledge is obviously so limited you shouldn't be offering anything more than an opinion -- if that.
  
  Mental illness has enough stigmas to fight. It doesn't help when people who are not trained medical professionals speak as if they are.
  
  I understand why people put guns to their heads and pull the triggers. And it's NOT because they're just not trying hard enough to be happy!
  
  What ignorance!
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mega1posted 15 years ago
still at it I see - why don't you just agree to disagree and give it a rest?!
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motricioposted 15 years ago
They control me
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Sue Adamsposted 15 years ago
Depressing to read depressed people depressing each other with depressing arguments. I'm outahere
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logic,commonsenseposted 15 years ago
Actually I have 'people' who do it for me!
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defenestratethisposted 15 years ago
Lol..well about 3 years ago, during my final rehab stint ( to once and for all escape the perils of heroin addiction) I learned the simple formula that has given me enduring peace of mind..and it goes like this 1.) Think 2.) Feel 3.) Act. And thats it! Yes. WE control our thoughts, which cause us to feel emotion, and that emotion leads to the behavior. No one is in charge of the thoughts that enter my mind, but me. Once I mastered my thinking, my life became more or less sane, and I no longer felt at the mercy of the world.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Addiction to Opiates/Heroin is not clinical depression. PERIOD!
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pylos26posted 15 years ago
Yeah...one may control their thoughts...but...not their feelings.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I think the thoughts lead to the feelings. If a person controls their thoughts, they should be able to control their feelings.
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marinealways24posted 15 years ago
Deborah: I'm not saying we don't need to talk to others or try to change our thoughts but usually several avenues are prescribed for a patient who is depressed. Medication, Psychotherapy, exercise, diet etc. One type of therapy rarely helps. For someone spiritual depression doesn't take hold as firmly, but not everyone is spiritual. You can tell someone who feels hopeless, a thousand times a day to think positive and they won't. A person has to believe something, take it as fact, before they can allow it to affect them. Positive thinking is not faith. Telling someone they can get better if they think positive will only make them see how hopeless it is if they don't believe it. Even with a brain that has no imbalance, faith or feeling something is fact is the only way to change thought patterns

I think you are partly right. I think many tell people to have positive thoughts without explaination on how to find and create positive thought. I don't think the majority of people know how to create positive thought and get rid of the negative thoughts.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  In one of my prior posts I said Meds, diet, and talk.
  Anyone who can overcome by getting hold of and changing their thoughts is not clinically depressed..depressed maybe but not clinically. We can't say that because we were able to do it everyone should be able to. That would be cruel to those who can't. Doctors don't work with the Pharmacies either as some have implied. The Conspiracy theory. LOL
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Define "clinically depressed" compared to "depressed".
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  Deborah Sextonposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You must have misunderstood. I agree with everything you've said. It is a few of the others saying different.
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marinealways24posted 15 years ago
B.C. BOUTIQUEposted 3 days ago
It is possible, in certain circumstances to control your thoughts, many people like that are in a trauma situation or have mental issues..

I always thought that your thoughts controlled you subconciously..

-Explain this please. Some think that the subconscious can consciously be controlled. I think it is proven through marketing, many have used subconscious marketing techniques to sell their products. If a company selling products can manipulate and control their conscious thoughts and impulse, the individual should be able to control the subconscious when it is understood.
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marinealways24posted 15 years ago
89Sara Tonynposted 5 hours ago
THANK YOU!

It REALLY ticks me off when people who haven't personally experienced clinical depression say that it's curable by thinking differently.

IT IS NOT. I know this firsthand.

DAMN, I'm pissed!

-Was it her that pissed you off or was it yourself that pissed you off? Serious question. Did you control your thought to get mad from what she said or did you give her control to make you mad? I believe you gave her control.
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  rebekahELLEposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  when we say that someone made us mad or angry, we have placed them in charge of us otherwise we could control our reaction.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I agree. I think when we let someone make us angry, we are sometimes looking for a reason and wanting something to be angry about.
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  rebekahELLEposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  very true. it's 'human' nature to blame others. it doesn't happen in nature. generally, we're usually not angry at what we think we are. something triggered the anger and we blame outside of ourselves. someone here in the forums recently gave very good advice to another poster who was very angry. he told the poster to look deeper at what triggered the angry response. anger management takes place on the inside.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed. I think an important part of anger management is analyzing thought and debating it for a rational response rather than acting on impulsive thoughts which often lie to us proving by assumptions that we often make or have made before.
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  Sara Tonynposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You misread what I said. I wasn't pissed off at Deborah at all.
  
  I thanked her for setting the record straight about clinical depression.
  
  What upsets me is when people who have no medical background or personal experience try to diagnose people or explain medical problems. That's an extremely dangerous thing to do and yet there are several people here doing exactly that. That's what pisses me off.
  
  They're doing very serious damage to people who suffer from clinical depression and they're helping to fortify the stigma attached to mental illness. They need to stop that immediately if they truly care about people's welfare.
  
  As for getting upset, of course it's me that allows me to get upset. Didn't we all learn that in 3rd grade?
  
  When I say "that's what pisses me off" of course I'm saying "that's what I allow myself to get pissed off about".
  
  Everybody knows that.
  
  All human beings do it at times and there's actually some benefit to it. You can either suppress emotions or express them. It's healthier to express them most times, unless it leads to violence.
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L. Andrew Marrposted 15 years ago
I think it's a mixture of the two.

We can control our every day thoughs - but, if I say don't think of a pink elephant dancing then that is the first thing which pops into your head.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  lol Good example and point. I have to admit, I did see a pink elephant dancing in my thoughts. You make a good point that outside influences contribute on individual thoughts, however, I think we sometimes let the outside influences define our thoughts. I think there is difference in thoughts being influenced and those being defined.
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mega1posted 15 years ago
A pink elephant just showed up here! Can I keep him? Please?
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  He is all yours. I don't like him jumping around in my head. Thanks a lot Andrew.
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rebekahELLEposted 15 years ago
very much agree. thoughts come and go, and at times we need to step back and observe them and either let them go or analyze them for what they mean. a thought is not who we are, who we are is deeper. I want to read your latest hub, will bookmark it for later. time to walk the dog before the rain.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks rebekah, I hope you like it.
  I have read and researched on thought, I can't give credit all to myself on the ideas. I read a book by Dr. Amen who does brain scans to put a more accurate view of science into psychology. He has some interesting ideas on thoughts and understanding how they work.
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Deborah Sextonposted 15 years ago
marinealways24
Define "clinically depressed" compared to "depressed".

I have already but will do so again. Clinical depression means the Chemicals are out of balance or not being produced in order for the brain impulses to be carried to the correct part of the brain. The nerve fibers send the messages (impulses) by producing a Chemical (Neurotransmitter) at the ends of the fibers therefore reaching the next nerve fiber end. (When I said this earlier someone came in and bashed me for it; she said she was doing so because everyone already knows this stuff). When someone is clinically depressed (Above Definition), they need meds to at least jump start the Chemicals or suppress them. The doctor prescribes the meds, talk sessions and tells the patient what not to eat (rather than what to eat) He/She also tells them to exercise (aerobic type) to help produce Hormones/Chemicals etc. Any person can experience this depression, regardless of the life circumstances (like my sister)

Non-clinical depression is usually caused by life circumstances.ie A person loses their job and can't find another then maybe his wife dies. He is sad feels hopeless etc.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So if the meds can jumpstart the chemicals, so should natural solutions and controlled thinking. The thoughts can produce the chemicals within themselves. The doc says to exercise because this naturally releases serotonin, same as meds. Non clinical depression you described is negative thinking same as clinical. Both are depression, just with different philosophies. Even the smartest psychologist will say that psychology is educated guessing.
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  Sara Tonynposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Wrong. Please stop playing doctor, okay?
  
  Medication doesn't release serotonin. It inhibits its (re)absorption. Exercise can't do that.
  
  Also -- The serotonin level has to remain steady/constant to effectively treat clinical depression. Medication can do that; exercise cannot.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  lol Who said I was a doctor and who have I diagnosed. Why do you assume so much? Explain the effects of exercise and how it helps depression since you are so certain that it doesn't work the same way as meds.
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  Sara Tonynposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You really don't read well, do you? Over and over again people are correcting you because you've misread what they said.
  
  I never said you claimed to be a doctor. It's obvious you're not. You're clearly not intelligent enough nor do you know much about how the brain works. How apropos.
  
  I asked you to stop playing doctor which is what you are trying to do when you talk about clinical depression. Ask someone else to explain that to you if you still can't grasp it.
  
  You've already been told the difference between the effects of medication and exercise. I don't know why it is too difficult for you to understand but I suppose your reading problem complicates simple comprehension.
  
  So one more time, because I now pity you, here is the difference; this is the most simple way I can find to explain it. Hopefully even you will be able to understand this time.
  
  Exercise helps to increase the levels of serotonin and dopamine in the brain, or so it is believed, during exercise. That increase is temporary; levels drop back down soon after the exercise has ended. Plus, there is a limited amount of increase in neurotransmitters. It's not nearly enough to lift a person out of depression nor is it nearly the level found in medication.
  
  Think of exercise as a temporary patch to lessen some of the symptoms of depression. When combined with medication, cognitive therapy, etc, exercise may help relieve some symptoms of clinical depression better. But again, its effects are temporary and limited in strength.
  
  On the other hand medication (SSRIs and SNRIs) increase the level of serotonin in the brain 24 hours a day; it is constant, not temporary. The level can be increased by raising the dosage or changing to a more powerful serotonin re-uptake inhibitor.
  
  Medication increases the amount of serotonin by delaying its re-absorption into the body; it keeps serotonin in the brain longer than it normally would stay and that steady increase helps to relieve depression.
  
  Note: Medication does not help produce serotonin, it helps build up the level by inhibiting its re-uptake 24 hours per day.
  
  Exercise helps increase the production of serotonin, but the increase isn't a large and only lasts while the exercise is going on; it continues for a short time afterwards as the serotonin level drops back down to pre-exercise level again.
  
  Now I'm asking you once more to please end this discussion of clinical depression as you are doing harm, not good. Thank you.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What are you talking about. You just admitted that exercise and meds do the same thing, just that meds are stronger and constant while exercise is not. Where am I being corrected all of these times?
  
  Answer this since you know everything. Do thoughts produce chemicals in the brain such as serotonin?
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  Sara Tonynposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  OMG, you still don't understand the difference? Seriously?
  
  I'm sorry, but you are beyond hope.
  
  And the answer to your thoughts/chemicals question is no.
  
  I truly pity you. You really need help -- with your ego.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  lol Now you are answering things you don't know. More assumptions from you. I think you need to do more research to learn that thoughts release chemicals.
  
  "Countless research studies have focused on genetics and the chemistry of the brain to decipher the disease of addiction theorizing that a poly-genetic pre-disposition (history of addiction in a family) may be 25% to over 50% responsible for an addicts' physical and, thus, emotional compulsive need. When pleasure centers in the human brain are stimulated, chemicals called endorphins (a natural opiate, this neurotransmitter is similar to morphine. It is produced in the pituitary gland. It protects against excessive pain, and is released with ACTH into the brain) are released into the blood stream. Endorphins and related chemical compounds / hormones released naturally are believed to be associated with the mood changes that follow sexual release. Any chemical that causes mood changes can be addictive, with repeated exposure altering brain chemistry to the point that more of the chemical is "required" in order to feel "normal." Viewed from a physiological or bio-chemical standpoint, the constant compulsion to achieve an endorphin "high" may be no different than opiates to a heroin addict or alcohol to an alcoholic and, as time goes by, the body requires ever increasing amounts of the chemical to feel "normal." The addict's brain can eventually become permanently damaged so that the brain's receptors are "tuned-in" only to the chemicals to which (s)he's addicted."
  http://www.treatment-centers.net/sex-addiction.html
  
  You still want to make things up when you don't know something? There goes your credibility. Thoughts don't release chemicals in the brain?
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  Sara Tonynposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  How desperate are you? Quit changing the wording to suit your needs.
  
  Here is your original question, verbatim: "Do thoughts produce chemicals in the brain such as serotonin?"
  
  Once again, the answer is no. Thoughts do not produce chemicals in the brain such as serotonin.
  
  The article you quoted states exactly what produces chemicals; how could you have missed that?
  
  Further evidence of your inability to comprehend, I guess. Poor guy.
  
  Chemicals are produced when (not by!) the "pleasure centers in the brain" are stimulated. Those chemicals are produced by glands, (such as the pituitary) not thoughts.
  
  It's not "magic". Thoughts aren't tangible. Glands are. Chemicals are tangible and must be produced by a tangible source: GLANDS.
  
  Your ignorance grows.
  
  Please, take a reading and comprehension class or two.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  lol Changing the wording? You are hysterical.
  
  Emotions are from thoughts. Do you not understand this? The thoughts lead to the emotions which release chemicals in the brain. I'm sorry you do not comprehend.
  
  You first say that thoughts don't produce chemicals now you change your story.
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  Sara Tonynposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes. You asked "Do thoughts produce chemicals in the brain such as serotonin?"
  
  I answered no.
  
  Then you changed it to, "Thoughts don't release chemicals in the brain?"
  
  Again, I answered no.
  
  Not at all.
  
  My answer was no to begin with and it is still no.
  
  Get your eyes checked.
  
  Thoughts creating emotions is altogether different. Thoughts may trigger some emotions but thoughts do not produce chemicals.
  
  And emotions do not produce chemicals either.
  
  Glands produce chemicals. Period.
  
  The reasons glands produce chemicals are more complex than what you seem to believe. The best you can do is produce selective quotes that you clearly don't fully understand.
  
  You're wasting my time -- everyone's time, actually. Sorry, but there's no point in encouraging your nonsense any longer.
  
  You cannot merely have thoughts about serotonin and expect it to magically appear, nor can thoughts produce serotonin. That's so over-simplified, it's laughable.
  
  Have a good evening and... see ya!
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The thoughts trigger the emotions that trigger the glands. You are a genius.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  NO thoughts do not.
  As far as exercise, it has to be to the point that the growth hormones kick in. No it can't produce the chemicals in any valuable amount in some people, though it may help others. It is not always Serotonin, there are more neurotransmitters than that one though Serotonin does help the brain produce the others. BUT do you really care or do you just want to bug the other person?
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  Maximus591posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Here are some additional thoughts to further enhance your education.
  
  Since you seem so big on the Serotonin myth, are you able to answer why the depressed sufferer has to wait up to 6/8 weeks before they start feeling better when taking an SSRI?
  
  Why the delay?
  
  The supposed 'serotonin imbalance' is corrected almost immediately as soon as you start taking an SSRI. So, why don't you start feeling better immediately like you would if you had taken a headache pill?
  
  Secondly, your need to believe so aggresively in the serotonin myth might actually block your recovery. By becoming fixated on what is essentially a theory - the serotonin imbalance - you essentially block off other paths you could pursue in order to achieve good mental health.
  
  So, I do believe it's you who is spreading erroneous information, no-one else.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Me?
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  Sara Tonynposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Since you are so ignorant about serotonin, I'll explain why there's a delay.
  
  Serotonin re-uptake inhibitors delay the re-absorption and dissipation of serotonin. They do not hold it in your brain forever nor does the serotonin remain intact forever.
  
  The delay in getting the full effect from medication is because it takes time for enough "remaining" serotonin to reach peak levels.
  
  Because the production-inhibition-re-uptake cycle is ongoing and dissipation also occurs (naturally) the amount of serotonin "build-up" is gradual; the concentration increases slowly.
  
  After approximately 6-8 weeks there is high enough concentration of serotonin built up so that the "delayed" re-absorption still allows for an effective amount of serotonin to remain in the brain at all times.
  
  That's 100% incorrect as I just explained. There is no immediate correction.
  
  Untrue. Nothing but uneducated speculation on your part.
  
  No, it's you and others who think they know about something they've never experienced and have no training in.
  
  Not only have I experienced clinical depression, I've also spent 15 years working in the mental health field.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think you have taken your "happy pill" tonight.
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  Sara Tonynposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Gosh that's clever.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe I am right.
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  Maximus591posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Oh dear. You have clearly become very confused. You have taken onboard the Serontoni Myth to such an extent that intelligent reason is now beyond you.
  
  "Currently, no clear evidence links abnormal serotonin receptor activity in the brain to depression. ... the data currently available do not provide consistent evidence either for altered neurotransmitter levels or for disruption of normal receptor activity" -- this conclusion was formulated by a panel of leading mental health experts / U.S. Congress Office of Technology.
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  Sara Tonynposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Nope. Sorry. That would be you.
  
  You being an authority and all, eh? 'Fraid not.
  
  How many snippets from reports saying the opposite would you like me to provide? Or would you prefer to Google them yourself? (I really don't want to waste my time providing the obvious to you.)
  
  And you do know that your snippet really only points out that the evidence isn't clear-cut, not that there is no evidence, right?
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  Maximus591posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, and that is why you need to qualify EVERY statement you make is based purely on theory and NOT on empirical data. But you haven't done that.
  
  So, given the fact you have mere theory to go on, then it's you who is being damaging. Spreading ill informed nonsense as if you were a world authority. You're not.
  
  Lets see now.... a panel of leading mental health professionals discrediting the serotonin argument or some crazed female on an internet forum peddling her message?
  
  Just who would you believe?
  
  Hmm... tough one isn't it?
  
  ho ho ho
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  Sara Tonynposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Don't have to because it's not based entirely on theory.
  
  As I just stated, it's not just theory, thus there is no damage being done. Plus I do have 15 years experience working in the mental health field so I'm very familiar with how clinical depression and its treatments work. Also, I've experienced clinical depression firsthand and it's tough to top that kind of experience.
  
  What credentials or experience do you have?
  
  Oops. Now you insulted me.
  
  And let me remind you, they didn't discredit the argument. That one particular excerpt did nothing more than indicate the proof they were discussing is limited. Did you bother to read other reports that reach different conclusions? Didn't think so.
  
  Btw, you're fodder for some great jokes on a number of forums, so thank you for that. But while that's entertaining, I wonder why so many people laugh at you?
  
  Hmm... tough one isn't it?
  
  ho ho ho
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  Max, go home !
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  Deborah Sextonposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Whatever you think I said I didn't. Why are you stating all this stuff. Are you wanting to upset others?
  
  If someone needs meds there is no way they will do the rest because they will feel completely hopeless. The meds are re-uptake inhibitors. Not producers.
  
  Chemical imbalance can be too much or too little or something wrong with the way they are or are not produced.
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marinealways24posted 15 years ago
If you "think" about something sad, this may lead to the emotions of crying Dr. Sara. The sad thoughts lead to the sad emotions. Crying releases chemicals as well.

"Studies have shown that emotional tears contain more manganese, an element that affects temperament, and more prolactin, a hormone that regulates milk production. Sobbing out manganese and prolactin is thought to relieve tension by balancing the body’s stress levels and eliminating build ups of the chemicals, making the crier feel better"
http://www.scienceline.org/2006/10/23/a … oll-tears/
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marinealways24posted 15 years ago
"An emotion is a mental and physiological state associated with a wide variety of feelings, thoughts, and behavior. Emotions are subjective experiences, or experienced from an individual point of view. Emotion is often associated with mood, temperament, personality, and disposition. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotion"

Do you understand now? The thoughts create the emotions. Comprende?
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  Maximus591posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Do remember that thoughts are the manifestation of electrical activity inside the brain.
  
  To have true mastery of ones thoughts then a method would need to be found that could intercept firing neurons. In a sense, a 'thought' in itself can affect a neuron just like neurons affect thoughts. A thought is the realisation of a complex network of electrical activity.
  
  Chemicals can affect the electrical processes of the brain, which in turn affect the thoughts, which in turn then effects the chemical process and electrical activity. There is a cyclic effect at work.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not disagreeing, i'm just not clear. Do you think the thoughts create the chemicals or the chemicals create the thoughts?
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  Sara Tonynposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Please, you've been disagreeing for two days.
  
  Neither of your statements are correct. You can't reduce the entire process into the simple form you'd like. It's completely misleading to do so.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  They are connected. Thoughts, emotions, glands, all related and connected. You are misleading to claim somthing is wrong that you can't disprove. Disprove that thoughts don't lead to emotions that release chemicals in the brain.
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  Sara Tonynposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  "You are misleading to claim somthing is wrong that you can't disprove." That's complete gibberish.
  
  Good grief, take a class in English composition along with your remedial reading and comprehension classes. You're embarrassing yourself.
  
  "Disprove that thoughts don't lead to emotions that release chemicals in the brain." Now you're asking me to prove a negative? Everyone knows that's the oldest trick in the book used when someone is losing an argument.
  
  Sorry, not biting.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What is the trick intelligent one? You are the one that lies that thought and emotions aren't connected which releases chemicals in the brain.
  
  Your trick when losing is to tell the person to go back to school and call everyone that you disagree with ignorant.
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  Sara Tonynposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  It's impossible to prove a negative such as you are asking me to do. That's the trick.
  
  I never said thoughts and emotions aren't connected. I said the entire process (not just thoughts and emotions) is more complex than you seem to believe and therefore it's misleading to put it into the simple words you'd like to use.
  
  Please learn to read. I'm getting tired of asking you that.
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marinealways24posted 15 years ago
Sara, maybe if you controlled your thoughts rather than acting on impulses, you wouldn't believe everyone is ignorant.
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  Sara Tonynposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I don't believe everyone is ignorant. But I believe you are because you've proven it time and time again. Even as far back as your religion forum posts. You've been consistent in your ignorance, I'll give you that.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  lol Is that your favorite word? I think your negative thoughts control you and you are addicted to impulses. I think you should learn self control.
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  Sara Tonynposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Gee, is "negative' your favorite word?
  
  I think your negative thoughts control you and you are addicted to impulses. I think you should learn self control. Oh, you are funny!
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You are a negative thinker no? This is why you have a history of meds and are defending anti depressants. Think positive and take your happy pills and stop insulting everyone.
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  Sara Tonynposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Aren't you ashamed to make such a comment?
  
  You know nothing about me and making fun of any medical discussion is something shameful.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Who said I haven't taken anti depressants before and that I am not speaking from personal experience? Did you think about that in all of your "negative" assumptions before calling me ignorant?
  
  Your namecalling is shameful.
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  Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Actually we all are quite ignorant. Some, like Marine, try to educate themselves though...
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thank You Misha, I appreciate that. I agree, we are all ignorant in one thing or another, I think it is only being content with ignorance that truly makes a person ignorant. I may never be content.
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  Sara Tonynposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  If you think the word ignorant us an insult, didn't you just insult yourself along with everyone else?
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You are seeing what you want to see. I separated it. Just because I think a person can be ignorant in one thing doesn't mean I think they are absoluely ignorant. I think it's only the content with ignorance that makes a person ignorant. Does that not make sense?
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  Sara Tonynposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It doesn't make sense according to what I believe the word ignorance to mean. But if you think it does, that's fine, I'll just disagree. I don't want to go off on a tangent anymore than we already have.
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  Sara Tonynposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  And I wish him well. It must be so frustrating for him to make no progress.
  
  Especially while the rest of us try to educate ourselves and succeed.
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  Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Reported as personal attack
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks, I reported her as well. Maybe if she learns self control to stop insulting people, she won't get suspended.
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  Sara Tonynposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I must admit you made me laugh with this.
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  Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Glad you liked it. When I see one, I call one
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  Sara Tonynposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You are educating yourself by calling people ignorant and throwing out insults? I think it shows lack of control of your thoughts along with exposing your depression.
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  Sara Tonynposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You insulted me and everyone else who suffers from depression. And you're known for insulting people all the time. Yet because I've proven you wrong, you say I attacked you.
  
  Do you know the definition of ignorant? That's a serious question, btw.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I made an apology for lying to the religious people. Get over it. Stop hanging on the "negative" to discredit me. Where and what did you prove me wrong on, if you point it out and explain, I will gladly accept being wrong.
  
  You write some of your definitions then I will explain. You will probably disagree with my definition since you disagree with everything else just to get stimulation of disagreeing with something.
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Sara Tonynposted 15 years ago
Please list the insults you're accusing me of. EXACTLY, WORD-FOR-WORD, not rephrased in your own words.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  How many times have you written and called me ignorant? Now you are in denial.
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  Sara Tonynposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'm simply asking you to make a list.
  
  I didn't confirm or deny anything.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Why do I have to make a list? That is the problem, you don't confirm or deny anything. Kinda hard to have an honest conversation of controlled thoughts when the other person doesn't have control to confirm or deny their thoughts.
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  Sara Tonynposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I didn't say you had to. I simply asked you to.
  
  I've confirmed plenty of information. And I've denied the accusations you made of me.
  
  So now you're saying I don't or can't control my thoughts?
  
  Isn't that either an insult or proving your theory wrong or both?
  
  If you'd like me to stop, please just ask. Unlike you and some others, when someone asks me to stop for a legitimate reason, I will.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think you like controlling them. I think you get stimulation on impulsive thoughts from arguments. I think you can control your thoughts, possibly you don't understand how, thats maybe why you put so much importance on anti depressants. I'm not asking you to stop commenting, just asking that you use some reserve to stop slinging insults. What accusations did you deny that I made about you?
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  Sara Tonynposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  And I find that quite insulting.
  
  That's definitely insulting. Incredibly insulting. And completely untrue to boot.
  
  And I've ask you to list what you believe are insults. But you haven't. So what's to stop slinging?
  
  Pick a spot in the "thought" nonsense.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You asked "So you're saying I do or don't control my thoughts" I simply answered the question. How is what I wrote insulting or are you just saying it's insulting to justify you calling people ignorant? Which parts of what I wrote are untrue?
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Sara Tonynposted 15 years ago
I'll be back in a few. I have some reading to catch up on in another forum before I call it a night.
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marinealways24posted 15 years ago
My main question is, does the thoughts produce the chemicals or do the chemicals produce the thoughts or both? Please explain the answer if you answer.
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  rebekahELLEposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  from what I understand about brain chemistry, thoughts can change the neurotransmitters by sending a message and it affects the levels kind, of like the oil in a car. if you walk into a room and someone points a gun at you, your brain receives a message and releases a chemical that helps cause us to be alert, tense..
  or you're with your partner who just brought you beautiful flowers and your brain receives a message that causes a flood of endorphins that make you feel happy and loved.
  the level can drop to low or rise to high according to our thoughts. those levels affect our moods.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Excellent thoughts, thank you for writing that. So in theory, do you believe depression can be learned or cured possibly through controlled thought?
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  rebekahELLEposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  well, I have no medical credentials nor do I fully understand clinical depression,so I can't answer on that but from my studies, mild depression can be helped by changing thoughts. the brain is like a computer and pulls the most recent files if we're just operating on automatic, you know, going through our day without really consciously thinking. if we can be in more control, where we consciously decide what to think, the chemistry in our brains can change.
  the brain doesn't care what we think, it's just working according to what it's being fed. if the levels are low, it's not going to work properly. that's why it seems to help to change the 'scenery' so to speak.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So someone agreed with you??!!
  
  Here read this:
  
  http://uhs.berkeley.edu/lookforthesigns … sion.shtml
  
  This is a report by the Berkeley Univ. It'll answer your question as to the ability to will your depression away..which is a big NO.
  
  Then read the part about getting help..But don't stop when you see something that agrees with what you believe, read it all:
  http://uhs.berkeley.edu/lookforthesigns … help.shtml
  
  Here the Mayo clinic speaks of some peoples need of ECT
  http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/clinic … on/an01057
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  Maximus591posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Oooh... don't be so sure. Never underestimate the willpower of a human being!
  
  You do appear to have a rather one dimensional view of depression. I truly hope your comments here are not indicative of your approach to those who suffer with mental health. If they are... my heart goes out to the poor suckers.
  
  Depression is not as 'fixed' by chemical imbalances as you suggest.
  
  I trust you are aware of spontaneous remission. I trust you are also aware of the numerous studies which have shown just by being on a 'wait list' to see a psychotherapist have led either to a full recovery of depressive symptoms, or a marked improvement.
  
  Isn't that remarkable? You don't even see a therapist or take anti-depressant medication yet you get better! How is this possible? It must surely be a miracle, right?
  
  Or. might willpower have something to do with it?
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  Deborah Sextonposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Than it wasn't clinical depression. I am a Kabbalist and know the power of the mind. However, a person has to want to get better. Those with CLINICAL depression feel hopeless and most often feel death will be best. You are most certainly missing the point. The meds help to give a lift to want to go on. To leave a person alone and tell them to heal themselves is wrong and certainly would result in all kinds of problems. I see depressed people all the time. Why don't you read the Berkeley and Mayo articles. Funny, they seem to agree with me. Tell me, what medical credentials do you have? None, right? Then stop telling people how to treat the depressed. Depression caused by life circumstances can be overcome so this must be what you saw or know about. It is not the norm. A deeply depressed person has no will power.
  I doubt YOU can change things with your mind and you're not depressed, how much less then someone who is.
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  Maximus591posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  This question has already been answered. You do need to pay attention.
  
  Neurotransmitters are chemical messengers. They relay information between neurons in the brain.
  
  Thoughts are the realisation of electrical activity in the brain. Is it possible to have a 'thought' without electrical activity? No. Chemicals, in particular neurotransmitters, also play a role in generating thoughts. They help pass the information generated by electrcial activity (firing neurons) to other areas of the brain.
  
  The point you're attempting to establish is : can I use my thoughts to affect chemicals in my brain which in turn will affect my mood?
  
  You won't get an easy answer. And, here's why : Strong marketing from large pharmaceutical companies approximately 15-20 years ago led everyone to believe low serotonin was at the root of all depression. Prozac, the ultimate happy pill was designed! Good times could be had by all, just pop a pill. The Prozac nation was born.
  
  However, later studies started to question the theory that low serotonin equated to low mood. The evidence that had first been produced by big pharma started to seen quite flimsy when studies started to emerge showing Prozac (and it's SSRI siblings) were not much better than placebo. This did not make sense. Was serotonin and other neurotransmitters like norepinephrine the sole arbiters on ones mood? Or was the situation just that bit more complex than big pharma would want you to believe?
  
  So, back to your question. Yes, thoughts can influence mood, either positively or negatively. But what role thoughts play in relation to chemicals and the way those chemicals in turn affect your thoughts isn't really known. There is probably a relationship, even a very powerful relationship, but the exact mechanism at work between thought > chemical > outcome and vice versa isn't understood.
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Deborah Sextonposted 15 years ago
I won't be back to this thread, so arguing with me will be a waste of time.
Just know that when we judge something we usually have to experience it as a result.
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