Why do Christian judge those who are gay and claim to be Christians?

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   Sundaymomentsposted 14 years ago

   Though I know that being homosexual is not accepted still in today's society why is it individual feel it is there moral and civic duty to cast hatred animosity towards those who live within that population?
   
   Does not the bible say Love one another as Christ would love you and did not Christ even show compassion to a prostitute?
   
   Though I have even been guilty of casting a seed of anger and hatred towards such individuals.. why is it our human nature to hate such individuals casting them into the dark place called hell; yet we call our selves Loving Christians?
   
   I have asked many questions in this thread in the attempt of trying to figure why this population has to suffer so much for being who they are......

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      stilljustwonderinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      We as Christians aren't suppose to judge others.  It is true that homosexuality is a sin, however, in the book of James it says that who so ever keepeth the whole law, yet offend in one point he is guilty of all.  When the woman caught in adultry was taken to Jesus, he said, he with no sin cast the first stone.  The Bible also says that none is perfect.  We are suppose to love every one.  Why would we think that God would love us, who aren't perfect, and not love some one who is gay? 
      I think, maybe, those who are homophobic is afraid the gay person might be interested in them??  I don't know.  I do know that I know gay people who are good people, loving people.

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         Sundaymomentsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Well said stilljustwonderin; God wants us to love and accept each with out any condition put on it that is why he has said love one another as Christ first loved us

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         Shadesbreathposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         If you are truly and honestly curious as to why Christians judge those who are gay, I will tell you if you really want to know.  I will show you examples from this thread.  These are examples of assumptions that many Christians begin forming their positions from.  I'll start with one of your own:
         
         
         Two assumptions here that will derail Christians looking for honest understanding of why they are struggling with judgmentalism.
         1) By using this prostitute comparison, you have lumped homosexuality into the same human arena as prostitution.  Prostitution is an economic choice women (and a few men) make, usually out of dire need to survive.  Homosexuality is not a choice made for the sake of providing the things necessary for survival. Using this comparison is a red herring that misdirects the conversation via argument by bad analogy.
         2) Rather than get into an argument about the evidence for or against homosexuality as a trait from birth, let's just say that there are arguments on both sides "proving" both sides.  This means we can, for the sake of civility, agree that there is still a debate about homosexuality being a "choice" or not since we can't get agreement that it is fact from everyone.  That is by definition a debate.  When facts are still under debate, then an argument with tons of evidence can be made for how it is NOT a choice of any kind as easily as otherwise, thus rendering the prostitution thing null based on the fact that the "choice" is not factually proven for homosexuality where in the case of postitution it is a choice (where it is not forced, etc.).
         
         
         By starting from the assumption that "it is true it's a sin" you have already made the judgment.  It's a "sin" and it is "true" that it is a sin.  Game over.  Any conversation that comes after that part compeltely ignores the fact that this final judgment has already been made.  Further conversation is equivocation or some other debate all together.
         
           Here are a few problems with assumptions. The first is the use of the phrase "one thing for sure."  To say something is "for sure" means that you have absolute, irrefutable facts that cannot be argued and no reasonable person can possibly disagree.  That is what "for sure" means.  I know "for sure" that I am writing under the name Shadesbreath on HubPages.  No reasonable person can look at what I have written and say otherwise, and I could bring 99.9999999999% of the humans on the planet to verify it and they would all agree (other examples: the ocean has water in it; most birds fly; the sky is azure blue most days, etc.).  The same cannot be said for that comment above, which means that every conclusion that comes from that statement is also an assumption because it relies on the initial assumption to support it, therefore it is not an actual "for sure" fact no matter how much the speaker may believe it to be.  However, Christians similar to the person quoted here regularly go on to make judgments based what they believe are facts, which is why Christians like her judge gays.  They believe they have facts that are "for sure" when in fact they have assumptions that billions of reasonable people can and do dispute.  It's not a fact, it's an assumption until everyone agrees. 
         
         Another problem with this quote is that, in the first part of this quote it says, "I don't accept sin or judge.  But the judgment has been made by the assignment of "for sure" just discussed.  By putting the term "sin" in the same conversation, the judgment has been made, so what we have is a statement that goes: My assumption is that homosexuality is a choice the making of which is a sin, but I don't judge. When broken down to the logical underpinnings, the statement is obviously flawed.  This flaw is common amongst Christians and explains why they are so mysteriously always judging homosexuals.
         
         This is a big one.  And while I know the poster here intends well, the fact is, this statement reduces people down to their sex acts.  It implies that heterosexuals are really just about boy/girl sex.  Homosexuals are just about sodomy.  Twelve year old boys are only about self gratification.  Etc.  The assumption here is that our existence is defined by our sexual behavior, seemingly almost in totality, but by degrees depending on the given Christian struggling with why they judge.
         
         Again, this is meant to be nice, but it's actually already cast its judgment. The assumption here is that to be gay is to be imperfect.  This statement is saying, if I fill in the assumption required for it to make sense: Why would god love me who is heterosexual--which does not impact my being perfect, although I have other flaws which make me imperfect--and not love a gay person who is rendered imperfect because of his gayness?  That assumption will cause Christians to be in a position of judging homosexuals because, well, the judgment is already made before they start speaking or writing.
         ........
         
         I could pick a few more out of here, but I already know nobody will read all this.  The point, however, is that the reason Christians are "struggling" with judgment and homosexuality is that in pretty much every instance I have ever seen, they have already judged and are actually looking for a reason to make it not feel judgmental, which feels wrong to them.  Some have already decided they have "the Truth," and no longer care to discuss it.  However, if you really, honestly want to know why there are some Christians who can't figure out why there's an issue, it's because they haven't accepted they have already judged and are trying to "decide" how they feel about something they have already decided and just won't say, "I judge thee a sinner" and be done with it.  You either have to accept you have "the Truth" and stop thinking, or you have to accept that it's more complicated than that and there isn't "a" truth at all--only people living in a world.

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            Sundaymomentsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Wow my Hats off to your comment on this thread; what an eye opener you have given!!

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            stilljustwonderinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            We do have to judge what is sin and what isn't.  Other wise we would all be running around doing what ever we might wish to do.  There is a difference between judging an act, and judging a person.   
            We are not suppose to judge a person, unless we want to be judged.  None of us are perfect.  We will not be perfect no matter how hard we may try.  Not while we are in our fleshly bodies.

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               Shadesbreathposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               I understand your point, but from a strictly logical standpoint, your statement is, like the ones I listed above, based on assumptions.  The primary one being that homosexuality is something that should be on the list of things counted as sin.  Which is fine, I understand that different Christians have been arguing about which passage says that or does not say it etc., which happens to be one of the big problems in modern times for non-Christians. The contradictory nature of it all, and so many different Christians "proving" that other Christians have it wrong, by the very nature of the lack of consenus proves that there are no facts to be found.  (I'm sure you can find your favorite passage on this, but that only proves my point, as I can find others to refute yours and so on, which is why there are at least 40 or so denominations of Christianity, all certain they finally have it right.)
               
               You also are doing exactly what I pointed out in the analysis of "perfect" and "imperfect" above.  You say "none of us are perfect" with the implication that a gay guy is rendered imperfect by being gay.  The assumption is that he is rendered imperfect by his gayness, which relies on the assumption above that being gay IS a sin, AND it relies on the assumption that he "chose" to be gay and wasn't born that way or made so by real events in his actual life growing up as a child, etc. By assuming it is a choice you assign sin to him as an unending and permanent condition.  Your statement makes him perpetually sinning by the very nature of his being, unlike you or I who only sin when we make bad choices singularly.  If I go steal something I make a choice to sin.  I am not sinning every single moment of every single day. You and I can commit single sins.  The gay guy, by your statement, is committing one long, unending mega-sin with every gay breath he takes. 
               
               So while your statement appears to make it sound like you are judging the sin and not the person, you are infact imbuing homosexuals with inherant sin that they cannot ever not do unless they stop being themselves and live the life you have decided is a proper one.

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                  stilljustwonderinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  Yes, I can show you scripture that implies to me that a man with a man, or a woman with a woman is a sin.  Fornication is biblically listed as sin.
                  I can also show you scripture that implies that if some one truly believes something is a sin, for them it is.  If some one truly doesn't believe something is sin, to them it isn't.  So, for me it would be a sin.
                  As far as if homosexuality is a choice?  I don't know.  I have met men who had a more feminine spirit than myself.  I have met women who were more masculine than some men.  I had wondered if maybe the wrong spirit entered into the body at birth.  I don't know.
                  To be perfect would be to never commit sin, or make a mistake.  Do you know any one like that?  I don't.

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                     Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     when you are saying "spirit" are you meaning being possessed by an evil spirit or something like that?

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                        stilljustwonderinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        I am referring to the person that we are.  Our bodies are only vessels, a house, for our spirit.

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                     Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     I agree with you stilljustwonderin.

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            Don Wposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Like it.

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            Pyrus Hombreposted 9 years agoin reply to this

            Shadesbreath...you are so pedantic in letting everyone know what you think you know.  I'll tell you this...if according to you that I have chosen to be homosexual...then you must have chosen to be heterosexual.  You must have felt the desire or attraction for the same sex but chose to be heterosexual because the Bible tells you this is right.  Well...I can already hear your argument..."no , I did not choose...I was born this way and you are not at all attracted to the same sex.".  WELL, GUESS WHAT...IT WORKS EXACTLY THE SAME WAY FOR HOMOSEXUALS.  AND, BEING THAT I AM ONE I CAN TELL YOU IT'S NOT AN ASSUMPTION OF ANY KIND.  IT IS THE TRUTH.  AND, FRANKLY...I DON'T BELIEVE THE BIBLE IS THE WORD OF GOD.   I BELIEVE IT'S THE WORDS OF BIASED, IGNORANT PEOPLE.  AND, IF YOU'RE MAKING THE ASSUMPTION THAT HETEROSEXUALS AREN'T CAPABLE OF MOLESTING YOUR CHILDREN....THEN YOU'RE ALSO WRONG.  WHY WOULD IT BE ANY DIFFERENT TO WONDER IF A HETEROSEXUAL MALE WOULD NOT HAVE EYES FOR A YOUNG FEMALE RELATIVE OR THAT A HETEROSEXUAL FEMALE RELATIVE WOULD NOT HAVE EYES FOR A YOUNGER MALE.  IF YOU WERE THINKING LOGICALLY THEN IT WOULDN'T BE ANY DIFFERENT...AND, YOU WOULDN'T LET ANY ADULT THAT YOU DID NOT TRUST IN YOUR HOUSE.   AS FAR AS RELIGION GOES...BELIEFS ARE JUST THAT...BELIEFS.  IF YOU'RE CAPABLE OF BEING HONEST...YOU WOULD ADMIT YOU NO NO MORE ABOUT GOD THAN I OR ANYONE KNOWS ABOUT GOD.

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               Live to Learnposted 9 years agoin reply to this

               As a Christian, I agree with your comments. We all do the best we can and can only be happy and emotionally healthy if we are true to ourselves. Many times people use the Bible in order to feel better about their own prejudices. The word Christian should mean follower of Christ and Christ was very clear by his actions that he did not sit in judgement. He was able to do this while still being said to fulfill the law. I think that speaks volumes against those who attempt to sit on the high horse of self righteousness.

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                  Pyrus Hombreposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                  Thank you...I was brought up to be honest...and, that means being who I am...a HOMOSEXUAL...WELL, THAT'S JUST A PART OF WHO I AM.  I COULD NOT BE WITH A WOMAN BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE HERE THINK IT'S WHAT I SHOULD BE DOING.  I'M FULLY PREPARED TO FACE MY CREATOR IF THAT IS IN FACT WHAT WE DO WHEN WE DIE.  PERHAPS WE DIE AND SIMPLY RETURN TO DUST AND THAT'S THAT...PERHAPS WE ARE BORN AGAIN AS SOME BELIEVE....WHAT I CAN HONESTLY SAY IS THIS...I DO NOT KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN.  THOUGH I'VE READ "THE SHACK," AND I HAVE TO SAY THE GOD OF THE SHACK APPEALS WAY MORE TO ME THAN THE GOD OF THE BIBLE.

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      Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Hi Sundaymoments, You are right, The bible does say that. Speaking for me as a christian. I love everyone whether they are a homosexual or not. I don't accept sin, nor judge them. One thing for sure, no homosexual were born a homosexual. Do you believe they were born that way?

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         Sundaymomentsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Woman of Courage again we go back to the part where it says cast not a seed of Judgment; because I am not gay I do not know! However to answer the question in a biblical sense God's word speaks down on homosexuality so therefore I am very prone to agree with you that no one is born gay:)~

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            DevLinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Everyone is either or? Where do you catogorize hermaphrodites? They chose to be that way? And who are those in between? It's not a black/white world. Don't make the assumption birth is, just because a book says so. Tell it to the three hundred species' bisexual animals in the world. What God said in the bible, he created. Isaiah 47-7

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         Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Thanks for replying Sundaymoments, I was reading the last sentence in your title about homosexuals suffering for being who they are. I have heard others say - that's who they are, they are born a homosexual. That's the reason I ask you that question to be sure of your meaning. Yes God 's word speaks against it. This is a good thread topic.

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            Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            LOL God's word speaks against women preachers and hypocrites. Doesn't seem to stop you does it? Oh well - seeing as god does not exist - no matter. Dear me. Tell us how self righteous you are instead.
            
            Great thread! RAmen !!!!!!

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               Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Yikes!! I just got attacked by the enemy again. Mark, I never told you I was a preacher, and I am not. You came to that conclusion on your own.

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               Sundaymomentsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Who ever RAmen however thanks Mark for stopping By!! Your words posted on Christian threads are always interesting at least!

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            Sundaymomentsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Thanks Woman of Courage and I am sorry it has taken me so long to reply I was busy working on my book deadline!

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               Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               You are welcome Sundaymoments, I understand

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      IntimatEvolutionposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I find it to be a weakness, and flat out failure on the part of the Christians, who chastise homosexuals. However, to lump all Christians as haters- is irresponsible.
      
      I for one could careless about whether or not two guys are going at it, or two girls, five guys, or a whole group of people......  That's their business, and as a Christian it is not my place to judge somebody. 
      
      However, some people are nosey and hateful people period.  Most don't realize it, but, they are actually acting aggressively for fearing the unknown.  Being Christian really has nothing to do with it, and spouting verses is their way of covering up the fact that they are afraid.  I don't think it even occurs to most people that they are being judgmental. 
      
      Fear is the root that causes emotional changes that involve uneasiness, hate, aggression, anger, etc.... Fear.  Usually Those who are afraid of something like homosexuality, are also the same people who have to be in everybody's business, while only offering criticism and backlash.  That is just who they are as people, and not necessarily because they are "Christians."
      
      This is my opinion anyways.

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      Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      It's isn't human nature at all, it is the teachings of religions.

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         Sundaymomentsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Beelzedad you have spoken something that many people refuse to hear and if they hear these words then they are quick to deny them great input!!

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      chatpilotposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Christians particularly those of the fundamentalist persuasion tend to judge gays on the basis that the bible quite frankly condemns homosexual activity as abominable it was under the mosaic law punishable by death. Now they also state that God loves the sinner but not the sin so that in a way is their justification for what they do. We hate what you do but we love you in Christ and want to save you from eternal damnation.
      
      Leviticus 20:13
      13. "The man who has intercourse with a man in the same way as with a woman: they have done a hateful thing together; they will be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.  (New Jerusalem Bible)
      
      Sodom and Gomorrah were both destroyed by God for the sins of vice and homosexuality. The bible is full of references to homosexuality as being sinful and abominable to God. And so Christians in general look down upon those that are gay and live a homosexual life style. Don't blame the believers blame it on the bible and the mythical homophobic God it depicts.

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      mythbusterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Not all Christians view controversial issues this way.

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   Jeramiposted 14 years ago

   We are not supposed to judge anyone. And yet we are not supposed to help anyone in their sins either.
   
      I thinking about a neighbor who ask for a ride over to a friends house. They weren't home (supposedly) lets see if they are around the corner he asks. 
   
     Let me just run in here and see if they are here.
   
     I later found out that He only went there for drugs.
   
   Am I "Judging" him wrongly when I refuse to do him this favor again?  Am I judging him when I refuse to associate with that behavior?  I guess I am in a way?  It is all that I can do to keep it to a minimum. 
      I won't judge what you have for supper as long as it isn't at my table.
      I may not like the smell of it; whatever it is???
   
      I have enough problems of my own, I don't need to share other peoples problems.

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      stilljustwonderinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Am I "Judging" him wrongly when I refuse to do him this favor again?
      
      No, you are keeping yourself out of trouble.  I think, drug use is a sin, or wrong, because it is against man's law.  We are suppose to follow man's law too as long as it doesn't conflict with God's law.
      
      I think there is a difference in judging some one and not condoning their behaviour.  We can't say something is ok when the Bible clearly states it isn't.

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         Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I agree

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         Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I guess then that would be the right way of looking at it from many prospectives covering many issues.
         
            To be true to your own feelings however we derive them?
         
            This is the best answer that we can give concerning the OP.
         
           At least I think so,

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         Sundaymomentsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Stilljustwondering If I helped someone with transportation and they caused a sin to cast within my path I would therefore pray for them but I would do as the bible tells me and use wisdom in all that I do! I would not sit and cast my net near one who only sits to destroy!

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            stilljustwonderinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            I agree.  In Jeremi's case.  There could have been drugs found in his car.
            He could have found his self in a violent situation.
            What did I say to make you think I felt other wise?

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      Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I agree Jerami, I will not help anyone to do sin either.

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      srwnsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Lets explore this Judge not lest ye be judged a little farther Jerimi,
      
      Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged The explination follows and in verse 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother'e ey
      
      To me verse 5 seems to be self explanitory. So if we look into our own hearts and cast, admit, ask forgiveness for the sins we see there, then we can see the sin in others. Online it is quite another thing, we cannot see the person, nor tell by their deeds what truly lies in their hearts. Therefore we can only go by what they say with their words, agreed?
      
      I think Judge and Condemn from Judgement are two seperate issues.

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         Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I think that if we can truly remove the beam from our own eye, It would no longer be possible to see the mote in the other persons eye.
            
         
            We would however, recognize it happening when someone tries to place the beam back into our eye.
         
            When we are not careful in our acceptance of another's sin; we will soon be wearing it ourselves.
         
            There is a narrow line between wrongly judging another for their actions and taking on their sin ourselves by being overly accepting.
         
            So narrow in fact; that I don't think that anyone can maintain their balance all the time.

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   srwnsonposted 14 years ago

   I think that if we can truly remove the beam from our own eye, It would no longer be possible to see the mote in the other persons eye.
   
   I disagree, many throughout history have been called by the Lord as his representatives on earth. If they could not see the mote in other's eye, what would be the wisdom of teaching the word to them? LUKE 17:3: "Take heed... If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him."
   
   We wear sin as a consiquence of being Human. But condeming someone for that sin is to judge their heart. Actually I believe it is possible to retain ones balance most of the time it is those who try to shove you off the beam that we must be wary of.

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      exorterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      many times a christian can not see the beam that is in their own eyes, that is the reason the Bible tells us to admonish, exhort, or rebuke one another. usually if they can not see the beam, there is another problem.  But if you try to admonish, rebuke or exhort some one it causes problems.  Even if a Deacon tries to do so there are conflicts arising

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         aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         1 Corinthians 6
         
         DOES ANY of you dare, when he has a matter of complaint against another [brother], to go to law before unrighteous men [men neither upright nor right with God, laying it before them] instead of before the saints (the people of God)?
         
         Do you not know that the saints (the believers) will [one day] judge and govern the world? And if the world [itself] is to be judged and ruled by you, are you unworthy and incompetent to try [such petty matters] of the smallest courts of justice?
         
         Do you not know also that we [Christians] are to judge the [very] angels and pronounce opinion between right and wrong [for them]? How much more then [as to] matters pertaining to this world and of this life only!

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            earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            You wrote:
            "Do you not know also that we [Christians] are to judge the [very] angels and pronounce opinion between right and wrong [for them]? How much more then [as to] matters pertaining to this world and of this life only!"
            
            
            
            Any wonder you have authority over all those little unbelievers. You're almost a god yourself! Wow!

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         Sundaymomentsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Well said exorter often times in in the Christian religion you will see Power struggles that only creates division within the fellowship of the order. This is why God's word says we are to be intimate with Christ. I believe this would mean that we all have an individual relationship with Christ and never should we involve ourselves in political religious laws!~

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   galleryofgraceposted 14 years ago

   They're not "Christians"- they are commercial church attendees who believe they can go to church on Sunday and get forgiven for any awful act they comitted during the previous week.

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      exorterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      The word says Judge not, even if they are going to church and giving you a hard time because of your belief, even then you treat then the same as you would anyone else

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         Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         It is those outside the church that expect every member of the church to be perfect.  I see more condemnation directed at the church than is coming out of it.
            
            If people had to be perfect in order to be a member of a church; the pews would be empty.
         
            If we had to be well to be in a hospital  why would we be going there??

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            exorterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            That is good Jerami

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               Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Don't know how long I get to be up on computer.  Having power surges.
               
                  There is another thread about pastors not living up to the standards of the congregation.
               
               I guess the congregation isn't living up to the expectations of those outside of the church.
               
               Our politicians are not living up to our expectations.
               
                 Is anyone living up to the expectations of anyone out side that group?
               
                 I don't think so.

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   Lady_Eposted 14 years ago

   Why do "some Christians" Judge.....

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      Sundaymomentsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Lady_E Thanks

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      BRANDONHEATHTARTposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      yes - an "S" was indeed necessary.   should i capitalize my palindrome or should i palindrome i?????

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   SilentReedposted 14 years ago

   Being gay is a way of life. Religion is just a part of that life. Why should "Christians" tell me how to live my life. If I am not welcome in their church,life goes on. No big deal.

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      Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I once had a part time employee who developed into a good friend who was lesbian. Her family was all into the Church big time. Her Aunt is a famous TV evangelist   And she was not treated well by her family. Always preaching at her.  She didn't go around them unless she had to.
      
         As far as I am concerned it was their loss, not hers.
      
      
         I did have to tell her once to quit making out with her girlfriend on the hood of my car.
         I would have told my heterosexual friends  the same thing.
         If they were coming over here to see me, quit doing that or lets all go to my room.  Just kidding ... Maybe?
      
        It was a long time ago.

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      aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      You should be welcome in any church, however, like any other believer you have no right to expect that the church ignores the sins you do, nor that they 'wink' at your 'predisposition'.
      
      I had a predisposition to fornication and murder (if truth be known) am I to expect that I should be allowed to continue sinning?

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   SilentReedposted 14 years ago

   I use the first person but my comment is not about myself but gays in general. I am heterosexual and I have no problem with gay friends. I think those who are most vocal against gays have sexual issues that they have to face and resolve. My advice to them is "COME OUT OR SHUT UP".

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      Sundaymomentsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Why must you make a determination that is only supported by your personal belief? Are you not guilty of passing judgment yourself?

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   A la carteposted 14 years ago

   I know lots of gays....like hetros some I like some I don't. I really do not care what their sexual preference is. How they act towards me is of far more importance and since a lot of religions have dirty hands I think as individuals we have a duty to accept or not as individuals but not be guided by rhetoric and homophobia, wherever it is coming from.

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      BRANDONHEATHTARTposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      i'm not sure that judgement is the word you are looking for.  nature has produced what does appear clear - gametes go with gametes...not with peanuts and corn.  It's a matter of deduction that takes place naturally.
      
      life feeds on life....  that old chestnut..
      
      their activities are not what some would call "life affirming".   that does not imply that their lives are not socially successful - it plainly means to these "judges" you are referring to that their is no 1+1=2...more mathematically accurate...there is no multiplicative product.  Life is not perpetuated by their actions.
      
      its just conceivably unreasonable....but that is a good point to start with!!!!!!!  you are on the right track - people that are in the community which you started the forum about are in God's hands alone to judge...not man's... in fact, Paul said that he does not even judge himself...that is to bring Christ up from the grave or down from above.
      
      in the end, real judgement harms the judge eternally and hurts the judged temporarily.  I SAY LOVE THE HOMOSEXUAL!!!!!  But is it right???  I don't want to say myself.
      
      i will say that it was supposed to feel good taking a crap - a relief of bodily waste, but not to deceive ourselves with the notion that we can crap over and over and over and over and over and over and over...
      
      understood?  maybe its lying to one's self....
      
      no matter how "good" of a person one is, should they do that? 
      
      as for the lesbian homosexuals - i have far fewer remarks...BUT, some of the above applies, but i will add that if you have to bye a fake Phallus then you should consider the costs...1
      
      2, if men are so repugnant, who will help perpetuate your cause...women and their sperm?
      
      3, you are far more tempting, but that can lead to being judged too, so - i will just end my diatribe.

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         BRANDONHEATHTARTposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         and yes - we have all passed judgement....but we have not all learned to just let it wait until "that great day"

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9. 59

   hanijaneposted 14 years ago

   Christians have a right to believe what we believe. However, if you are going to claim your title as a practicing Christian, like stated above we must not judge others because we too will be judged accordingly. Before some commits a sin, there is the temptation to sin, if we do not act upon the temptation, then it is not a sin. Therefor, if a woman is thinking of commiting adultry with a man, but refrains and controls herself, she has not sinned. And the same for a woman who wants to commit adultry with another woman but refrains, she too has not sinned. We can't help what we feel, but we can control how we respond to those feelings. Homosexuality is considered a sin in the Bible,that is why Christians believe it is wrong. Having homosexual feelings is not wrong, just a temptation, acting upon the feelings is wrong. I know several people who love and honor God, but also have feelings for the people of the same sex as themselves, therefore they do not act upon the homosexual feelings they have because they know that as a Christian it is a sin and we are supposed to refrain from sin as much as humanly possible. They also, do not consider themselves "Gay Christians" because that is an oximoron. It's the same as giving myself the title " Lying, jealous Christian". Yes, these are sins I commit, but nothing that I am proud of, so I would not lable myself with these sins, I would instead, try to change my sinful ways. Although Christains believe this whole heartedly, I still wouldn't dislike or put anyone down for being gay, but I wouldn't condone it ether.

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      Shadesbreathposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Ok, so let's have a hypothetical gay guy, we'll call him Gabe.
      
      So Gabe is gay, he's been that way since his earliest memories and both his partents will tell you they knew he wasn't acting like the "normal" boys his entire childhood. 
      
      Gabe grows to adulthood and is attracted to other guys.  He can't help it, he just is.  His Christian friends tell him, "Gabe, don't act on that.  It is a sin.  You need to be with chicks."
      
      Gabe says, "But I don't like chicks."
      
      His friends say, "It doesn't matter what you like.  Your inclinations are sinful.  You must either be with a woman anyway, or live a life without love."
      
      His friends then all go and meet chicks who they are attracted to and fall in love and have lots of sex and enjoy the physicality of their humanity along with their intellectual lives and spiritual lives.
      
      Gabe, being a good Christian resists his urges and now must make a choice.  Should he:
      
      A) Pretend he is not who he is and marry a chick anyway and try to force himself past the gag reflex every time she wants intimacy, while he deceives her for their entire lives about how he really feels and makes a lie of both their experiences of intimacy on this singular trip on Earth we get?
      
      B) Live a life without love and just suck it up in the name of Jesus, watch everyone else enjoying being with someone and just eat his heart out and shut his gay face about how he feels because he lost the dice roll of fate and got stuck with a mind filled with sinful thoughts that he has no way of making go away?
      
      C) Find another gay guy that he loves and move in with him but NEVER touch sexually since that's the most important thing when it comes to personal worth and value is that sex thing, and just try to salvage some vestage of the loving lives that his friends all get to have because God liked them better and gave them "normal" and "proper" sexal orientation?
      
      D) Accept reality and be who he is and just assume that his Christian friends have completely butchered what Jesus meant and what God is all about?
      
      E) Start his own religion and make heterosexual behavior a sin, wage some crusades in the name of his religion, take some territory and then ostracize the crap out of all the guys who like looking at boobs while pretending to be compassionate in the name of his religion's god?

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         hanijaneposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         OK. Sorry for offending you. I truly didn't want to do that at all. I just want to clarify something.....
         Sex is still a sin for " straight" people until they are married. Married through the church of God, anything thing else, is still considered adultry. So even for people who are straight, they are commiting a sin if having sexual relations prior to marriage.
         God doesn't like certain people more than others and place unfair sexual orientaions on them to make them suffer through out their lives.... come one.
         Let us remember that sex, since apparently this is what it all comes down to, was made to pro-create. If you read the Bible, you will see that it is intended for that reason alone. How can two men or two women pro-create?  It is the human race that has made sex SOOOO important. AND, on top of that, even for married couples, it is a sin to have sex with out welcoming the chance of life. Which means that contraceptives are a sin. Because it goes back to sex is for pro-creation. It doesn't mean you have to have twenty kids, but you have to be open to the reality of having a child. It is Biblical. I actually am putting together a hub about it if you wanna check it out in a couple days.....
         
         Everyone has temptations, everyone. Sexual orientation isn't the only one or the worse. Let's face it, some people are gonna do what they wanna do and there is no stopping them. But some people choose to offer their lives to God, and give up the things of this world that might come between them and God. It's a personal decision.
         Again, I am sorry if I offended anyone, I am very traditional and have a very focused point of view when it comes to this stuff, that is how I choose to live my life.

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            Shadesbreathposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            I'm not offended at all.  I think the rhetorical choices I made in making my point illustrate what it is that the attitude you hold does to people.  It paints them into an impossible corner and is used by some to justify violence and by many to promote legislation that dictates how they live their lives and even what words they can use to describe it.
            
               So then it is a sin for a man and woman to have sex if one of them is infertile and they know it?  And I also assume this means that once you have as many kids as you intend to have, you have to stop having sex. No offense, but I'm really, really glad I'm not Christian. That would suck.  My wife is beautiful and we couldn't afford to have any more kids, plus she got increasingly more violently ill with each pregnancy, having to be nearly hospitalized for the last tri-mester of the third one.  We were still in our twenties.  I can't imagine being married to such a kind, loving, beautiful woman and never being able to make love to her again after our third child lest I be labeled a sinner.  What a cruel and torturous thing your religion seems to me, although I'm sure the sixty or so years of abstinence while sleeping side by side would be rewarded in heaven and all that, right?
            
              Here is that assumption you folks keep acting like fact.  Remember our pal Gabe in the story up there?  He was like that his entire life.  He didn't choose it.  It wasn't a temptation, it was just how he is. It doesn't matter if he was born that way or became that way due to disease or genetic mutation or because his mommy didn't treat him right.  The fact is he is who he is.  It's not temptation any more than the fact that he grew to five foot ten is.  I realize you probably don't care about that, as Christians have already decided this "fact" despite there being hundreds of thousands if not millions of living, articulate people trying to explain how it is not like that at all.
            
            
            It is a personal decision to decide the truth of someone else's life, I agree and understand.  I wouldn't apologize for it though, if I were you.  I mean why apologize?  You have a divine being telling you through a book that it is perfectly alright to marginalize all these people like you do.  Why apologize?  You have your "focused" view which narrowly stares into the pages of book that is a couple of thousand years old and that's all you need.  Be happy you have all the answers right there.  Don't apologize.  Just don't be surprised when people are indignant at how you talk about them as if they had something wrong with them or were too blind to see the truth of their sexual stupidity.

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            Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            this reminds me...
            ..of someone my sister knows that had an affair, and insisted that God meant for them to be together
            
            and
            ...a friend that used a sperm donor to conceive and people in her church said it was adultery
            
            So, you're saying also that people aren't supposed to have fun when having sex?

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10. 72

    earnestshubposted 14 years ago

    None of the homophobic god botherers are game enough to go against the homophobic rantings they got from "the good book."
    
    Many religions are homo-phobic.
    
    It's the usual problem of fear and hate of anything not understood that religion encourages.
    
    Goddunnit.

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11. 57

    Jeramiposted 14 years ago

    Why do Christian judge those who are gay and claim to be Christians?
    
    
        I would say that it is for the same reason that all Caucasians have blue eyes.

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       Shadesbreathposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Huh?

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       earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       One major difference Jerami.
       Religion teaches homophobia. My eyes are brown.

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          Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          I knew that they were brown.  And I knew that you were going to say so.
          
             The bible that I read speak much more about theft, adultery fortification and gluttony that it does by sexuality.
          
          
             I'm sure that you know exactly how many times homosexuality was mentioned. 
             Would you like to share with us? 
             Cause I am curious, Have I been missing something?

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             hanijaneposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Here's 2 that I know off the top of my head
             Leviticus 18:22
             "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman, that is detestable."
             
             Leviticus 20:13
             "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman both have done what is detestable..."
             
             Not to mention the story of Sodom and others.
             
             There are tons of quotes about how sexuality and marriage are centered on "mulitiplication".
             Onan was struck down by God for having sexual relationswith the delibrate intent to unnaturally prevent procreation. That proves that SEX is for procreation. Again, how can two males or two females procreate?
             Is that not in your Bible either?

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                Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                so you would only have sex to try to conceive?  Once had enough children, no more sex?

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12. 72

    earnestshubposted 14 years ago

    Apparently.
    
    Genesis 19 Condemns all homosexual behavior.
    
    Condemns raping of strangers for the purpose of humiliation.
    Leviticus 18:22    
    Condemns all homosexual behavior.    
    Condemns gay ritual sex in a Pagan temple and/or males having sex in a woman's bed.
    Leviticus 20:13    
    Condemns all homosexual behavior.    
    Condemns gay ritual sex in a temple and/or males having sex in a woman's bed.
    Romans 1:26-27    
    
    Condemns all homosexual behavior as unnatural.     Describes a group of heterosexuals who, against their basic nature, engage in same-sex behavior during ritual orgies.
    1 Corinthians 6:9-10    
    Sexually active homosexuals will go to Hell, not Heaven, at death. Once truly saved, homosexuals will become heterosexuals.    
    Male child molesters and the children they molest will go to Hell, not Heaven, at death.*
    1 Timothy 1:9-10    
    Condemns all homosexual behavior     Refers to child molesters and the children they molest.
    Jude 1:7     Sexually active homosexuals will go to Hell, not Heaven, at death.     Humans who have sex with other species will go to Hell, not Heaven, at death.

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    hanijaneposted 14 years ago

    By the way,, I am not a homo-phob. My little sister is a lesbian, and even though I don't approve AT ALL. I still love her dearly, we have a great relationship as I do with several gay people. But thanks for judging!

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       Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       I can tell a similar story and wasn't aware that I was judging. but thank you or bringng that to my attention

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       Pyrus Hombreposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       I'm gay and if you were my sibling and did not approve of me then I would not believe that you love me.  How do you not approve of someone being true to themselves, of living an authentic life.  That's not love...IT'S HATE.  SHOULD YOUR SISTER BE LIVING HER LIFE TO SUIT YOU...TO MAKE YOH HAPPY?  IS THAT HOW YOU LIVE YOUR LIFE?

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14. 0

    klarawieckposted 14 years ago

    I think that the Romans and Greeks were so promiscuous and flamboyant that the followers of Christ made it a point to ban homosexuality as it was being practiced by the nonbelievers. Over the years, people have used the bible to justify their homophobia. Anyone that uses the bible as the ultimate guide on how to live life is blind to reason. It was written by men who lived in a society and culture that has absolutely nothing to do with ours.

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15. 72

    earnestshubposted 14 years ago

    I hope I live to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we won't have any public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them. What a happy day that will be!
    -- Rev. Jerry Falwell
    
    Secular schools can never be tolerated because such a school has no religious instruction and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith.... We need believing people.
    -- Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933

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       earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Silence as usual.

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16. 57

    Jeramiposted 14 years ago

    As I have said before...  I see some truth coming from most people that post in the forums.
    
       Sometimes it is hard to express  "correctly" exactly what I am agreeing with.
    
      I still say that there is a difference between believing in "The Higher power" and believing in religion.
    
       And I don't think that "RELIGION" bashes homosexuals any more than they do all of the other "sinners"
       Bashing Homosexuality is just getting all of the attention.
    And, non religious are doing it just as much as the religious.
    At least that is what I have seen.

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17. 58

    Liberateposted 14 years ago

    †Neither Death, Nor Life, Nor Angels, Nor Principalities, Nor Powers, Nor Things Present, Nor Things To Come, Nor Height, Nor Depth, Nor Any Other Creature, Shall Be Able to Separate us from the Love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord†

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    Mighty Momposted 14 years ago

    If you went into a church in this day and age and took a poll of all the people there and asked if any of them had had sex before they got married do you really, really think you'd find 100% wedding night virgins?
    The '60s really happened and this is 2010.

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19. 70

    Cagsilposted 14 years ago

    Why do Christians judge those who are gay and claim to be Christians?
    
    Because they have nothing better to do.

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       schoolgirlforrealposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       I agree. (some)

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20. 76

    schoolgirlforrealposted 14 years ago

    I don't think it's nice to do that. I myself don't know everything about being gay, my brother is.
    
    When I was young I was taught to have disdain for others of all sorts of things.
    
    Fortunately I have a different outlook now.
    
    I like honesty and respect it.
    
    So...My opinion on gay as a Christian is it's not my business to judge. I have bi and gay friends.

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    bayouladyposted 14 years ago

    Not all of us are like that,though. We are not all acting like self righteous Pharisees. It is not my place to judge anyone..unless you mess with my younguns!Mess with my children and you'll se me judge!lol!!!

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    peter565posted 9 years ago

    The treatment of gays, in according to real Christian value is even worse, then what these Christians are doing right now
    
    An example of a passage from the bible
    
    If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable.  They must be put to death, their blood will be on their own heads
    Leviticius 20:13
    
    A lot of people think Muslim is a bloody religion, but Christianity is even worse.  The version of Christianity we follow today, is call "New Christianity", it is a reimagine of Christianity, base on what we believe to be good and turn a blind eye to the existence of problematic passage.  There are more disturbing passage in the bible for example
    
    "And they entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and with all their soul, but that whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman."
    2 Chronicles 15:12-13
    
    Muslim god and Christian god is the same god and despite Muhammad have gotten rid of this passage, when he turn the old testimate, into the karan, this is exactly what the Taliban and  doing right now.

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