Why are SO MANY people threatened by the LBGT community? I say live

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gmwilliamsposted 10 years ago

and let live. These people are NOT bothering anyone, going on with their individual lives, and contributing to the community. They are fine, upstanding people. Again, why the strong animus towards this community?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  We're not threatened by most of them personally.
  We're threatened by those among them who are political activists who are trying to impose wrongful and bigoted laws upon the rest of American society, those who are forcing their way into our schools and telling little kids they have to consider homosexuality as normal, those who aren't content to have the same freedoms as everyone else but have to have special rights based on who they choose to have sex with.
  When I say "we", I mean everyone. Their actions are a threat to all of American society, including themselves.
  
  I personally know people who have homosexual temptations. They deal with those in their own personal way, and they confide in friends and family who love them and understand them, and they don't try to impose upon the rest of society, they don't try to twist laws and they don't attack conservatives and Christians, and they are nice people who often struggle with personal problems just like everyone else does.
  The liberal activists who claim to speak for them, are the ones giving them a bad name.
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  Cody Hodge5posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Uh huh......because there's nothing bigoted about what the conservatives want to pass to ban the extending of equal rights to gays?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Nope.
  Passing a law to defend against an unnecessary bigoted law isn't bigoted; it's an attempt to defend what's right.
  Every person already has had the same equal rights for years now. The liberal movement is attempting to distract and detract from rightful laws that've already been in place for years. AND they're distracting from hearing the people who really do need help and issues that need to be looked into. Like bullying and teen suicide, and even adult suicide! I personally (and who hasn't?) have had friends and acquaintances (teen and adult) who've committed suicide, and they weren't gay. Suicide is an issue that affects everyone's life at some time or other, whether it's family or friends or just another human being who was in confusion and trouble but wouldn't or couldn't get help. Yet the liberal movement has pointed its gnarly finger at only the "gays" and made bullying a crime against gays, totally ignoring the fact that it's a human problem, not even just gays in particular.
  The liberal movement is the most selfish, non-compassionate movement there's ever been. The activists care only for their own selves and their own agenda. If someone or something doesn't fit into their little narrow criteria, then it's invalid to them.
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  Cody Hodge5posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You know....I believe in your right to make outrageous statements and say whatever you want.
  
  What's scary is that you vote and people like you vote. Under no circumstances should government policy be dictated whatsoever by the Bible.
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  mbuggiehposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly...AND allowing the Bible (or whichever version of the Bible is thumped the loudest at any given moment) to be the foundation of our laws is UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
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  mbuggiehposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Please explain: How is legalization of same-sex marriage bigoted?
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  mbuggiehposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Can you define "liberal" for me?
  
  It is important that terms be defined before they are used.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  The pot's really calling the kettle black here. I am neither liberal nor conservative, more moderate with a liberal leaning, but this is nonsensical. You are in denial if you think that conservatives are always on the right side of the issues. I remember the videos of blacks marching for their rights and being hosed down by police, hanged unjustly, having burning crosses thrown on their lawns, and whatever else was done to them by the "conservatives." And you guys are crying because gay people are making a stand for themselves. Do I think they go overboard sometimes? ABSOLUTELY. But you're mental if you think that 1) what conservatives are "suffering" is anything compared to what you people have made various cultures/races suffer through in this country and 2) that they've made bullying only about gays. That's foolish. There are plenty of people who've been in the news, young girls especially, speaking out about their experiences with cyber-bullying, sexual orientation not even mentioned. The reason that gay kids that have committed suicide are being publicized is because teens and young adults are killing themselves because they feel that bigots that think like you are backing them into a corner and that there's no other way to deal with. Don't kid yourself. For all you who think that they choose to be gay, don't you think they would just choose to stop liking the same sex instead of killing themselves? Honestly the nerve if some people.
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  Zelkiiroposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Except gay people don't have the same rights straight people do, so basically you've just made yourself look foolish.
  
  Whoops?
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  MelissaBarrettposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  And now she'll say "Yes they do, they can marry someone of the opposite gender just like everybody else."
  
  She has a book of meaningless cliches that her pastor gave her for such situations.
  
  She thinks they are valid discussion points.
  
  No one has mentioned that a book written by phallic obsessed goat breeders doesn't really score points in debate.
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  Zelkiiroposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, wow, I would have been unprepared for a response that idiotic. Now my head hurts.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Read back over threads... She has about 20 stock answers and cycles through them.
  
  I'd go ahead and familiarize yourself with them. It saves time.
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  mbuggiehposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I think you need to enumerate a SPECIFIC and detailed list of exactly which "bigoted laws" gays and lesbians are imposing/attempting to impose on the "rest of society" and enumerate a SPECIFIC and detailed list of exactly which "special rights" based on whom we "chose to have sex with".
  
  After all, isn't heterosexual marriage and all the benefits that come with it giving "special rights" based on whom someone has sex with?
  
  All of this said, I have a sincere question---100% sincere, and one which has been rattling around in my head now for some time: Why do conservatives and Christians who on a daily basis break many Biblical laws and defy Biblical prohibitions about conduct focus on homosexuality?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I'll be 100% sincere in return-------
  Because gay activists and many gays and gay proponents are MAKING it an issue. They bring the subject up, point it out like it's a valid issue, force it into other people's private lives and into public life, and are literally forcing it into our political and legal system. Conservatives wouldn't talk about the subject nearly as much if it wasn't flashed around everywhere we look; the liberal agenda is to put it at the forefront of every issue.
  
  Another reason is because Christians know we're all imperfect and subject to sin, and we ADMIT that we may sin, and we admit that we need to repent in order to get forgiveness. I don't know about sin being on a "daily basis" as you put it, because that implies a deliberate lifestyle of constant sin (in which case, that's a problem), but Christians believe in repentance and forgiveness.
  Most homosexuals (at least the ones who speak out and cry it from the platforms and rooftops all around) are exactly the opposite, not only in sexual behavior but also in their agenda--------they refuse to ADMIT that homosexuality is even a sin, and they refuse to apply the tools of repentance and forgiveness to themselves and to others. They want their entire lifestyle condoned. While Christians, as I said, know not to make sin a "lifestyle".
  Those are some reasons why. This controversy is not caused by conservatives and Christians; it's caused by liberals.
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  Quilligrapherposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Good Evening, Ms. Durham. Please forgive me if I point out a few realities.
  
  First, gay activists have a legal right to advocate for any and all issues that they deem important. You, on the other hand, have a right to complain about gay proponents MAKING issues but you do not have a right to obstruct them. In our republic, they are free to raise any social issue they wish, bring it to the public’s attention, make it a part of public life, and to use all of their political capital to make these issues part of our political and legal system. That is the American way.
  
  Brenda Durham wrote:
  “Most homosexuals (at least the ones who speak out and cry it from the platforms and rooftops all around) are exactly the opposite, not only in sexual behavior but also in their agenda--------they refuse to ADMIT that homosexuality is even a sin”
  
  For any act to offend God, i.e. to be called a “sin,” it must be intentionally evil. According to the teachings of Jesus, sin is based as much on intent as on any particular action. Sin must first begin in the heart. Every sinful action must be backed by sinful intent. No one can offend God accidentally or out of ignorance. No one can sin without consciously intending his or her actions to be an affront to God. A child can not commit sin nor can the mentally ill. One must first sin in his or her heart before their acts can be called sinful. For this reason, two people can perform an identical act and one can be guiltless before God while the other stands before God as a sinner. {1}
  
  It therefore follows, a person, who does not intentionally set out to act in a fashion that offends God or His laws, can not possibly commit a sin be it due to ignorance or innocence. God’s reaction, according to Jesus, is no offense intended then no offense is taken. In your case, because of your core beliefs, homosexual behavior would indeed be a sin. However, such is not case for a gay couple that does not believe in God or does not believe their commitment to each other is an offence against God. They are free to express their love without shame or guilt.
  
  Brenda Durham wrote:
  “Those are some reasons why. This controversy is not caused by conservatives and Christians; it's caused by liberals.”
  
  I am sorry, Ms. Durham, wrong again. Both conservatives and Christians are delighted to join in this controversy. This is not just a liberal issue as you claim. The 2012 Republican Party platform supported a ban on same-sex marriage through a federal constitutional amendment. {2}
  
  Q. Why, Ms. Durham, is there a need for a constitutional amendment?
  A. Because the right to same-sex marriages is now and always has been protected by the Constitution.
  
  Those who would like to deprive their fellow Americans of this right should examine their own consciences, both political and religious.
  
  {1} http://www.actseighteen.com/articles/standards.htm
  {2} http://www.gop.com/2012-republican-platform_Renewing/
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  MelissaBarrettposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  That was beautiful Quilligrapher. Thank you for posting.
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  Mighty Momposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed.
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  Quilligrapherposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  ty
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  gmwilliamsposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Totally agree Quill. Your statements are always profoundly intelligent and spot on!
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  Quilligrapherposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  ty u r 2 kind!
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  gmwilliamsposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I am your avid fan.
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  Quilligrapherposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  yvw
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  mbuggiehposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you...well said!
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  Quilligrapherposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  yw
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  LauraGTposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  When I first read this I thought it was tongue and cheek! I'm just thankful that our "wrongful and bigoted" laws are now in place, so people who love each other can get married and have those marriages recognized. I'm so thankful that I'm raising children in an time when they will look back and say, "Mom, you were alive when DOMA was implemented? What a strange world you were living in!" It's so great to see history in the making, especially when it will make the world a better place for my children, whatever their sexual orientation. Bye-bye hatefulness! You are soooo 20th century.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  It's more likely that kids will be asking if you were alive during the time when people were mocked and bullied just because they believed in good moral values, and when kids were taught that it's okay to engage in sodomy and other homosexual practices. Soooooo B.C.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  LoL. That's funny. As if any of that so called "mocking and bullying" compares to denying people's rights. As IF the struggle for Christians is at all existent in this country (hardly).
  
  It is rare if not non-existent that Christians in America are being beaten up after leaving a church because they are Christian. Or being denied the right to marry the person who they most love because they are Christian. Or being unable to be open about being a Christian in the military. Or being ostracized completely by not just family but sometimes even small communities because you're openly Christian. Utter foolishness. Replace everywhere where I put "Christians" with "gays," and "church" with "gay bar" or any random place, and guess what? That actually DOES happen here. Get real. The actual Christian struggle exists outside of the US. We supposedly live in the land of the free and a place of equal opportunity, but I guess if you had had it your way, it would've only been equal and free for the straight white Christians.
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  mbuggiehposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  There you go again with the obsession with sodomy and homosexual sex.
  
  When I think about marriage I think about love and commitment; companionship and friendship; caring and nurturing; support and help. I think about someone to share my dreams with; about someone who I can always count on.
  
  When I think about marriage I think about family; about holidays and birthdays.
  
  Unlike you, my first reaction to marriage is not to debase the institution by claiming that it is essentially about sex and sexual acts.
  
  Unlike you, my first reaction in terms of what I would teach my children and grandchildren about sex (and I have children and grandchildren) is not to tell them about what sexual practices are "good" or "moral" in a marriage, but to try to teach them about the love and commitment and caring that are the good and the moral in any marriage.
  
  As I have posted previously, I am appalled by the debased and sexualized notion of marriage that seems to be the "Christian" view of marriage so often expressed by the opponents of same-sex marriage.
  
  And I really hope that at the end of the day, and despite your comments about what constitutes marriage that your marriage---if you are married, like mine, is based on love and commitment and caring.
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  LauraGTposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Well said. ++
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  Josakposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Nothing better to do but concern themselves with the sex lives of others.
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  LauraGTposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "homosexual acts" (other than two people of the same sex doing all the same stuff that people of opposite sexes do - kissing, touching, vaginal/anal penetration, oral sex - yes healthy, "normal," straight couples do all this stuff too). I will be giving my children age-appropriate messages that expressing themselves sexually is a natural part of life and is nothing to be ashamed of. I will do my best to give them the tools to protect themselves emotionally and physically (including encouraging them to wait to have sex and then to only have sex within the bounds of a loving relationship). I also will encourage them to not judge others in their personal and private decisions.
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  Josakposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  +100000000000000000000000000000000000000
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Well said.
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  KEPitz1005posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  LauraGT - my sentiments EXACTLY! I wouldn't want to raise my kid to fear or hate same-sex couples or any other group of people. I tried to instill in my son that nobody's better than anybody else, and every single person is different from every other single person... and THAT is what's normal! I wouldn't want him to go through the emotional turmoil if he questioned his sexuality and was taught that it was something that was to be hidden and hated - that it was not "normal".
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  MelissaBarrettposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Poe's law.
  
  Brenda is actually an absolutely brilliant liberal winning over all but the strongest conservative to the liberal side. It's amazing.
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  LauraGTposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Awesome!
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  Brenda Durhamposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You wish.
  Hey "Dorothy", tapping your heels together and wishing it so, doesn't make it so.
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  Josakposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  That is the effect you have. Thanks for your service.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  No thanks for yours.
  You should worry about the effect you have, instead of trying to re-label me.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  His image: Caring, intelligent and vaguely anti-establishment (sorry Josak)
  
  Your image: You.
  
  Once again, thank you for your great work recruiting members for the liberal mindset.
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  Ivan Todposted 6 years agoin reply to this
  Because their gods say to be. For millennia man has been told by their gods, through the various "holy books" that hetero is the way to go and gay is definately not the way! The animus you describe is an intensely ingrained mindset pressed upon the human race by the so-called gods to suit their ulterior motives. I will explain further if open minds wish to hear. If not, so be it. But, in short, the reason behind mans dislike, distrust, animosity and outright hateful mindset towards all orientations other than hetero is god. Had the so-called "gods" not introduced the idea that homosexuality was an abomination we would never had thought anything of it. Unfortunately they did and so it has been so deeply inbedded in our psyche that it will take a very long time and much understanding to rid humanity of it.
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  Live to Learnposted 6 years agoin reply to this
  Grabbing a dead thread won't get you much of an argument. I would be curious why societies (such as Soviet Russia) with a clear statement of atheism would have treated homosexuals so heinously.
  
  So, no. Religion doesn't cause it. It fans the flames of what already exists within some people and seeks to legitimize it.
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  Ivan Todposted 6 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe not, but you replied, no? And thanks for doing that. Anyway, Russia was actually Orthodox Christian for quite some time up until the Bolshevic revolution of 1917, 100 years ago, at which time atheism was state sponsored or "forced" upon the people by the government. The change, however, didn't rid Russia of the christian religion fueled hate of homosexuality but it did allow the powers that be to use the christian ideology of "do what you are told, or else" to subdue not only the homosexual population but the Russian population at large. So you see, even the atheist soviet government recognized the viability of state sponsored fear in efforts to control the population. However, I will agree with your point of it already existing in some people as some people just hate for the sake of being hateful and homosexuals are an excellent target for such people.
  And let's not forget that god was on scene with his deadly demands long before organized religion took a foothold. So, the tenets have been around for millennia.
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  Live to Learnposted 6 years agoin reply to this
  God was on the scene prior to organized religion? Really? That's interesting. So, the individuals who were not members of organized religion were being told by God to be hateful toward homosexuals.
  
  That's rich.
  
  Either way, back to Soviet Russia. Since homosexuals were not the only targets of that regime so I would have to disagree with your assessment.
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  Ivan Todposted 6 years agoin reply to this
  "God was on the scene prior to organized religion? Really?"
  
  haven't you ever read the old testament? Or do you just think that what you believe is actually how it went?
  
  "So, the individuals who were not members of organized religion were being told by God to be hateful toward homosexuals."
  
  The "organization of religion" you mention didn't come into affect until later. Initially it was just people doing what god told them to do. Then came the commandments, which did say "A man who lays with another man as with a women shall be put to death". So, yes they were, as no reasonable person would comprehend "put to death" as anything but hateful.
  
  "That's rich."
  
  Maybe, but it's true as well, whether you wish to believe it or not.
  
  "Either way, back to Soviet Russia. Since homosexuals were not the only targets of that regime I would have to disagree with your assessment."
  
  You are within your rights to disagree. But you missed the point of "control". Any one not falling in line was disposed of, be they homosexual, dissident or naysayer. Homosexuals had the negative distinction of being anti-god abominations before, during and still yet after the socialist regime thereby making them targets for elimination from start to finish.
  More importantly, god was telling people to kill homosexuals long before "Mother Russia" even existed.
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  Live to Learnposted 6 years agoin reply to this
  I will say that I wonder what those of you who believe all that is ill in the world is due to religion will do when the day comes when there is no religion and you are proven wrong.
  
  We are so much more complex than that.
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  Ivan Todposted 6 years agoin reply to this
  Never said every problem was due to religion, so I'm not exactly sure where you get that from but, If it turns out I'm wrong then where will be the hurt in trying it that way. Afterall, with all the godly faithful today the world is still in turmoil so obviously THAT is not working.
  And no, we're not that complex. If we were we wouldn't have been so easily fooled by the idea of "kill for god and you get to go to heaven".
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  Live to Learnposted 6 years agoin reply to this
  Well to attribute being against the LBGT community solely to a problem with religion is simplistic. I wonder, with such a large percentage of America claiming to be Christian how have laws been passed (through a general vote in many states) to allow gay marriage and such?
  
  We are complex. I realize from an atheist point of view none of it makes sense and on some levels I'd agree. I just read an article where a guy was sentenced to death for insulting the prophet Mohammed. Insanity, by our standards. Even devout Christians chuckle at a Jesus joke. However, faith is not the root of our problems, imho. Personally, many of the troubles of the world boil down to simple greed. You don't have to be religious to be greedy.
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  Ivan Todposted 6 years agoin reply to this
  "Well to attribute being against the LBGT community solely to a problem with religion is simplistic."
  
  Its simplicity is what makes it so effective and difficult for many to believe. It's like electricity, with all the things it has done for humanity it is the epitomy of simplicity in where it comes from and how it works. The average person, however, would be hard pressed to tell you where it comes from or how it works even though they use it constantly and couldn't imagine life without it. Similarly, concerning how the average person having a problem with the LGBT community goes, knowledge of the source has been superceded over time by its application therefore we erroneously no longer associate such hate with god and current religion.
  That being said, then to what, would you say, in addition to certain religious tenets, would be the cause of the worlds negative aggression towards the LGBT community? As apparently it was not an issue until the gods made it one.
  While you think about that, I offer you this; Look at the message from Jesus from a purely human point of view. By that I mean take what he said and remove the "god" and "promise of heaven" aspects, and tell me what you find. I think you will be surprised at just how little "faith" in any god has to do with it.
  
  " I just read an article where a guy was sentenced to death for insulting the prophet Mohammed. Insanity, by our standards."
  
  Yes it is insanity by our standards...Today. It wasn't always that way. Not more than a few hundred years ago those who refused to convert to christianity were tortured and killed in some of the most heinous of ways. I would attribute our modern mindset of finding such things unacceptable to the fact humanity CAN manage itself without war mongering, spitefully jealous gods.
  
  "However, faith is not the root of our problems, imho. Personally, many of the troubles of the world boil down to simple greed. You don't have to be religious to be greedy."
  
  I would totally agree with that, as I have stated in the past that "faith" in and of itself is not the problem. The problem is that the greediest are in control and many of them use god and religion to exact their programs of greed. The reason it works is that 99% of religions make the same promise of a perfect afterlife as long as you follow its rules and the one single common denominator amongst those rules is that adherents should not concern themselves with the condition of the world, that they should "go out from" the world and concentrate on their godly devotion. Sounds a bit counter-productive when the world is all we have.
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  Live to Learnposted 6 years agoin reply to this
  I'm a little confused by your Jesus comments although I will say if you take God out of it and thin it down to only one commandment he said would fulfill all the rest we'd still have a pretty cool place to live; if we all abided by it.
  
  You say LGBT etc was not an issue prior to God. Really? Could you explain to me how you know this? Are you saying it wasn't a problem prior to Moses on the Mt. or prior to Abraham? Prior to Noah? Since I assume your comments are mostly toward Judeo Christian beliefs I'd like to know at what point in history, prior to God, you are looking at to make this claim. I ask because most atheists I've conversed with make odd claims as if the world was all roses and sunshine prior to religion. I don't know that the world has ever been without some type of organized religion since man started congregating together in one place.
  
  And, your 'not more than a few hundred years ago' comment must be tempered with the acceptance that it was the religious who are the most responsible for the freedoms we now enjoy. It was the religious who fought vehemently in America for separation of church and state. A quote here, from a Baptist minister of that time, in Virginia.
  
  '"The notion of a Christian commonwealth should be exploded forever. ... Government should protect every man in thinking and speaking freely, and see that one does not abuse another. The liberty I contend for is more than toleration. The very idea of toleration is despicable; it supposes that some have a pre-eminence above the rest to grant indulgence, whereas all should be equally free, Jews, Turks, Pagans and Christians." John Leland, "A Chronicle of His Time in Virginia," The Writings of the Later Elder John Leland, published in 1845.
  
  Those humans who worship what you classify as a war mongering god fought to ensure the many of the freedoms we enjoy today came to be.
  
  I don't see a lot of ads for Pepsi, Coke, Monsanto, United etc arguing that God told them to do it. You and I and everyone else bought into this system by participating in it. We can't blame anything other than ourselves for where we stand today. Pointing the finger makes no sense.
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  Ivan Todposted 6 years agoin reply to this
  "I'm a little confused by your Jesus comments although I will say if you take God out of it and thin it down to only one commandment he said would fulfill all the rest we'd still have a pretty cool place to live; if we all abided by it."
  
  Well, all of what Jesus preached, if you remove the god aspect, was how people should live and treat one another. Nothing more needs be said on that. The big "IF" is the problem. You see, for some reason people don't seem to want to abide by it unless there is some kind of eternal reward for their efforts, hence, god and heaven. I do believe, however, that if god were removed from the equation and people realized this life is all there really is then they would at some point abide.
  
  "You say LGBT etc was not an issue prior to God. Really? Could you explain to me how you know this?"
  
  I shortchanged that comment for time reasons, sorry, a better more complete answer would have been that LGBT orientation was not an issue until after Man was sent out of the Garden of Eden by god and procreation became an issue. At any rate, the way to know anything that has no "proof" per se, is through extrapolation. That is to say you take the empirical, or what we do know through experience (that of our own and/or that of others), and correllate it with information found elsewhere to come to a conclusion. With that: In the days of the first Adam, yes there were others as per the book of Genesis, the man was free to do whatever he so pleased as long as he did his "chores" in the garden, other than eat of the tree of knowledge. Jewish mysticism, (Kabballa, which contains information that the jewish religious leaders deemed too undesirable for human consumption), tells us his first created mate, Lilith, refused to have sex with him, implying that perhaps she was not attracted to the opposite sex. God did nothing about it other than create a second more willing mate for the man. She is called "Eve". Now, if homosexuality was considered by god to be such a terrible thing why "create" a woman who wanted no sex with a man? Especially when he had already claimed all of his creations to be good? Further along; When Man was finally kicked out of the garden god burdened Eve with childbirth and said "Go forth and multiply", apparently still not concerned with Liliths non-desire for men. Now, we know from the bible that Man was created simply to serve the gods by "tilling" the garden, or in modern terms; do the dirty work so that the powers that be can live well. So, we can perfectly assume that in order to til the larger garden of the entirety of Mesopotamia a larger "tilling" force would be needed...A practical logistical matter. As such, what would be the one thing that would hamper such an operation? Well, if procreation was the cog, a non-procreative aspect of Man, or homosexuality, was the wrench that was thrown in. So, it wasn't a problem until the need for a larger workforce developed. Obviously, people of the time before homosexuality was decreed bad were engaging in it as much as heterosexuality and we see evidence of it in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, to which the commandment making man on man sex an abomination came after the destruction of the cities. When the homosexual aspect outgrew the hetero god aparently felt it was time to do something about it and so destroyed the cities and damned the orientation through the commandments.
  The Sumerians of Mesopotamia have many of the same stories in their documentation of the creation of Man. Mainly the one pertaining to god creating several "versions" of Man to do the "heavy lifting" as it were.
  
  " I ask because most atheists I've conversed with make odd claims as if the world was all roses and sunshine prior to religion."
  
  Maybe they do, but I wouldn't be able to say one way or the other for sure. I would say though, that if pre god humans did get together and form some kind of pseudo-religion in an attempt to make themselves feel safe in the world, that it in no way included a god as the people of that time had no idea or understanding of such a thing and would therefore never even contemplate it. Whether or not life at the time was all roses and sunshine would be, just like today, a matter of personal perspective.
  
  "And, your 'not more than a few hundred years ago' comment must be tempered with the acceptance that it was the religious who are the most responsible for the freedoms we now enjoy."
  
  Actually, it was the founding fathers, of which many were Freemasons. Here is an excerpt on Freemasonry from: https://www.compellingtruth.org/Freemas … asons.html
  
  "Masonic teachings deny and contradict the clear teachings of Scripture on numerous essential teachings. Masons also require people to engage in activities that the Bible condemns. As a result, a Christian who desires to live by the teachings of the Bible should not be a member of any society or organization connected with Freemasonry."
  
  "Those humans who worship what you classify as a war mongering god fought to ensure the many of the freedoms we enjoy today came to be."
  
  Perhaps, but at the time the freedoms fought for were for a select group. Time has shown the madness of such a warmongering faith and as such the adherence to such has softened, which begs the question of why would the faithful themselves make changes to the tenets if they were so good? Isn't gods word as acceptable in its entirety today as it was back then? How does the end really justify the means if the means themselves are eventually deemed unacceptable?
  
  "I don't see a lot of ads for Pepsi, Coke, Monsanto, United etc arguing that God told them to do it."
  
  You also don't see those companies engaging in suicide attacks in the name of bad dietary habits that kill thousands of people.
  
  " You and I and everyone else bought into this system by participating in it. We can't blame anything other than ourselves for where we stand today. Pointing the finger makes no sense."
  
  I personally have never chosen to participate in any system that allows for murder at the request of religious leadership and I don't think you did either. I was made to go to sunday school and church by my father, who ironically, never went himself. The time spent there and the things I was taught from the bible are what caused me to completely rid myself of my association with the church. Moving forward to today, I'm glad I did.
  And pointing a finger at what one deems wrong or complicit in the worlds ills is not wrong as bad things need to be pointed out. How else would anyone even give consideration to it on a conscious level if it's not pointed out?
  Anyway, I do appreciate your non-vitriolic replies. It confirms the fact that not all people in opposition to the beliefs of others is an arogant pinhead but rather some are in fact good sensible people who argue their point with intelligence. Thanks for that.
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  Live to Learnposted 6 years agoin reply to this
  Wow. That's a long comment. I'll keep mine short. As a person who believes that Jesus Christ was the son of God I must point out that Jesus spent an awful lot of time talking about that. So, you can't separate God from Jesus but, I agree with you. So many turn away from his teachings to search the text for validation of their prejudices and hatreds. If you simply look to the example and words of Christ there is nothing to support any of it. The LBGT thing, in particular. The guy never had a conversation on the subject. Now, it can be argued that he didn't because everyone agreed it was sin but I don't agree with that. Every Christian claims they are sinners. But, the kicker there is 'but God forgives me'. If that is true, he forgives all their sins; whatever they are and sin varies from individual to individual; within themselves. Externally, sin only exists because we perceive it as such. It is a choice we make. Which is how the religious resolve the dilemma of sin within and sin without. They are forgiven so their past sin exists no more. They see others as not forgiven so they live in sin. It's crazy really. If God exists and God loves you why would he not love me also? If God exists then hell can't be real because none of us could transgress so heinously in this tiny space of time (compared to all of eternity) to warrant eternal torment. Not if there is an ounce of love in God.
  
  Your Lilith story is simply that. I love the story of Lilith but it is Jewish midrrash. Fitting for a patriarchal society.
  
  But, I would disagree with you on pre god man. Pre god man would be very, very concerned with survival. Procreation was always an issue for hunter gathers. There would be safety in numbers. I would think that pre god man would frown very very harshly on members of that community not doing their part to ensure continuity and survival. LBGT rights can only be pondered and seen as fair in a society which is established, not concerned with high mortality rates of children which would endanger the continuation of said community. So, I would think pre god man would already be inclined to treat homosexuality harshly.
  
  Yes, the free masons were very concerned about separation of church and state. My point was that they were not the only ones. Plus, free masonry does not imply atheism. Only to the atheist it does. And theism vs atheism is not the point. It did not separate people on their desire to ensure a secular government. Nor, should a secular government bother any modern Christian. Jesus never spoke of Rome, overthrowing the government to make a theocracy or anything of the sort. The point of his message had nothing to do with subjugating others. Nor, did God ever ask the Israelites to go out and forcefully convert.
  
  And, no. Corporations don't use their advertising budget for suicide attacks. I'll be honest. I have seen companies use their Christian stance to enhance sales. Chick-fil-A, Hobby Lobby, etc. Not many do that. Most are well known for amoral decisions which factor only profit in when deciding yay or nay to a course of action. Blaming religion on corporate greed is as ridiculous as claiming the Spaghetti Monster would move us all into socialism. God has nothing to do with a company's standing on the NYSE.
  
  My experience with childhood religion was similar to yours, although my parents both attended while we were young. Oddly, they could have cared less what ultimate conclusions we came to. Well, maybe my mother would have objected to my current conclusions on the cosmos. But, it would not effect my stand.
  
  I think the primary thing that bothers me most is that I have no problem with atheism. It is a natural evolution of thought, considering the vast strides we have made in our understanding of the natural world. I consider it short sighted and too quick to draw conclusions but, as I said, it is a natural thing. The fact that atheists appear to possess such a distaste for any thoughts spiritual is the problem. I will not be badgered into agreeing with a shallow interpretation of our world nor will I join in a bash fest of the collective thoughts of humanity throughout recorded history.
  
  We have a long way to go to understand the universe. All doors of thought should remain open.
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Zelkiiroposted 10 years ago
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1. 67
  A Thousand Wordsposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Where is the "like" button?
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  MelissaBarrettposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I personally want a section for "America will be turned into a pile of salt" and "You will be forced to have sex with a member of the same gender"
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  wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I'm wondering more just what happened to the pedophilia and bestiality sections? Surely they should be at least half of it...
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  MelissaBarrettposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Good point!
  
  There should be a section for "I will burn in hell eternally because someone else did something that I think my kind and just God didn't like" as well.
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  mbuggiehposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I think Dante in his INFERNO created a special section of hell for those folks...
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  mbuggiehposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Hmmm...are we bringing Roman Catholic clergy into the conversation now?
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  mbuggiehposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly....we need a "like" button!
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  Sooner28posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Lol that's what I was thinking.
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2. 78
  Mighty Momposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  That would be an outstanding graphic if they took off the bottom one.
  The icecaps really are melting. It has nothing to do with LGBT.
  But it does have to do with people.
  Although that is a subject for another thread.
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mbuggiehposted 10 years ago
thanks..I love the chart...
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Mighty Momposted 10 years ago
From a USA Today article posted three hours ago. Apparently even some Republicans are in favor of gay marriage. Otherwise there would not be 55% support...

The poll by Princeton Survey Research Associates questioned 1,003 adults from Thursday through Sunday. It has a margin of error of +/-3.6 percentage points.

Gay rights activists react outside the Supreme Court on June 26.(Photo: Mladen Antonov, AFP/Getty Images)

Among the findings:

• By an unprecedented 55%-40%, Americans say marriages between same-sex couples should be recognized by law as valid, with the same rights of traditional marriage. That's the highest level of support since Gallup began asking the question in 1996. Then, fewer than half that number, 27%, backed the idea.
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Mighty Momposted 10 years ago
I had visited this thread earlier and simply couldn't summon the energy to comment beyond my suggested edit on the graphic.

Just saw this Huff Post article posted on Facebook. It is powerful.
Talk about bullying -- making your own 12-year-old child "choose" Jesus over his
budding sexuality. That is NOT what Jesus taught.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/linda-rob … r=Politics
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jenniferrpoveyposted 10 years ago
Here is why conservatives feel threatened by same sex marriage. Many are genuinely concerned that their churches will be pressured to perform same sex ceremonies. Our society is putting a lot of pressure on religious organisations to abandon their traditional values and "get into the 21st century."

Which is wrong.

I will be blunt: I am a marriage equality activist.

But I also believe in religious freedom, which includes the freedom to believe homosexuality is a sin and the freedom for a church (or mosque, synagogue, temple, coven, kindred, etc...) to decide what marriages they will recognize and what they will not.

I do, however, understand and appreciate their concern and feel it's important to address it moving forward.

The second reason I've come across in discussion is that some people find it hard to separate their personal morality and religious beliefs from the law of the land. I.e., these people believe that if same sex marriage becomes legal they are somehow forced to start approving of it. This tendency is seen more in conservatives than liberals. I personally find it ridiculous, but that is really how some of these people feel.

The third reason is that they are afraid that their children will become confused when they are taught that homosexuality is wrong at home and okay in school. I can see this concern too, I suppose, but I think we have *all* had to deal with the disconnect between family and church beliefs and wider society at some point - it's part of growing up.

The fourth reason is that they are afraid that gay and lesbian couples raising children will somehow screw them up (there's no evidence of this, in fact there's even some small evidence to the contrary) or make them gay (all the gay people I know have straight parents, guys).

These are reasons I've collated from extensive online discussion on the matter and are not a scientific poll.
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  wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  The first amendment prohibits the state from forcing any religion to do anything they don't want to. It would require a massive majority vote to change that.
  
  The first argument is thus null and void, and the far right KNOWS that. The argument is nothing more than a red herring, causing fear in those unable to read the constitution and think for themselves.
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jenniferrpoveyposted 10 years ago
It's not the state they're afraid of.

It's people bringing anti-discrimination lawsuits against them. Which, even if they WIN, is expensive and annoying.
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Why are SO MANY people threatened by the LBGT community? I say live

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