Big Brother Obama

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tksenseiposted 15 years ago
You may be thinking about black market organ transplants. Is that what you are advocating?
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  JonTutorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Good luck being ignorant.... folks like you and Harvey being vain about "superior" American healthcare .... never gonna read or understand anything else.... I'm done talking to ya.
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tksenseiposted 15 years ago
Have a good one!
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SweetiePieposted 15 years ago
I have wonderful discussions with Sufi, earnest, lita, and many other. I have been making contributions to this site for over two years, but only as of recent do we have a group of people trying to tell others what to think. A few months ago there was actually a more diverse exchange of opinions on this forum, but sadly that has been pushed out by people who think their world view is the only correct one. I will leave you alone because even telling me I should go play with the kids is condescending. I have shared the facts, and your insistence that I am not is futile.

I show so much, and that is why you are jealous. Native Americans have achieved more high positions in all Latin American countries then compared to the US. Of course there are those who are in poverty because these countries actually have majorities, whereas the majority of Native Americans in the US were decimated by disease, removal, war, and yes, massacres.

I have a BA in history and a master's degree in education, so I know my facts. I even had a concentration in Latin American history, so get over yourself. Please do not talk to me on this forum ever again as I think you are way out of line. San Creek and Wounded Knee were massacres because there were unarmed people, these were not battles.

One thing I forgot to add is yes there are white people in Latin American countries, the original Spanish settlers. There were even settlers from other European countries, but in Latin cultures people actually intermarried with the Native Americans more than here. I blame no one for anything, but actually have read accounts of Native Americans who saw massacres and killings.

Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee by Dee Brown illustrates the atrocities committed against Native Americans. Of course they tried to fight back, but in many cases unarmed people were shot upon:

http://books.google.com/books?id=02nyRl … mp;f=false

I have an encyclopedic knowledge, so I do not always have to go look up quotes in a book to remember. I remember much of what I have read from a young age, which is mostly my own independent reading.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  ......................
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jiberishposted 15 years ago
SweetiePie: "Please do not speak down to me."

Again, you self rate yourself. I'm not one of them, but there are a lot of intellectuals in Hubs, please don't assume that anyone is below your level.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Jibberish,
  
  You are putting words in my mouth. These men are speaking down to me because they state I do not know my facts, and I am not as informed as they. I just happened to have a different world view, and if they were as big into the first amendment as they claim to be they would not attack it. I have the right to stand up for myself, and your need to intercede on the behalf of someone telling me I do not know anything is a little silly.
  
  I can rate myself and many do, it is called healthy self-esteem and knowing your mind. Anyone telling others how to think is not tolerant. Yes I do consider myself an intellectual, and I do not need anyone to rate me on that. If you notice I never told them they are not intellectual, and I actually think they are intelligent. However, I know they have a different world view than me, and I do not put them down for it.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I would call it something else, but I'll be a "gentleman" and refrain from specifics this time.
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  Leta Sposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'm sorry, but I have to intercede here. What you just related is semantically ridiculous. SP is assuming the OPPOSITE of what you claim her to be. What I take from her statement is that she is asking certain people not to be condescending to her.
  
  Your diction is spelling out very clearly, however, how you may indeed feel about yourself.
  
  I might point out that you are also not SP's mother. I think she is an adult over the age of 21, as well.
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ledefensetechposted 15 years ago
I have only your word for the fact that you have an encyclopedic knowledge. Which based on some of your comments I have reason to question.

You also seem to misunderstand the fact that I consider the last battles of the Indian Wars to be massacres. I have never said they weren't. They were. What I said was that atrocities occur on all sides of a battle. You might have a BA in history, but I have spent the majority of my life studying military history, so I think I know what I'm talking about here.

I also have to wonder why, if you have all this knowledge, why you don't share it with the rest of us. Simply putting the names of authors or titles of books would be a place to start, yet you do neither.

Finally, you may wish me to never contact you in a forum again, but last time I checked this is a forum. Surely you know what the Forum was in Roman times. Also my dear, you only have an MA in education. Only PhD's get to make statements as if they are an expert source and then only in their area of specialty. Neither you nor I can make statement without proof because neither of us have achieved that rank. You can act like a PhD, but those of us in the know, know you for a fraud.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I could have obtained my phd. in history if I wanted, and I actually have had several professors ask me to do so. However, through independent reading I have learned much of what they also teach in graduate programs, so that does not make me a fraud. You are the one who advocates self-education over public schools, and many phd. programs are at public universities. I may go on to get my phd. in history one day, but a few sage people told me unless you enjoy teaching it is really not a good idea.
  
  Honestly I enjoy freelance writing and crafting, and I am working on other projects so I am not pursuing a phd. at this moment. I shared a book above, and my comments are very accurate. You insistence that I do not know my facts is just your opinion, and yours only. I think the fact that I have a liberal ideology makes you biased against me. If I were more conservative in my comments you would not even have these problems with me. By the way, military history only shows the US soldiers view of San Creek and Wounded Knee, and to get the full story you need to read first hand accounts from the native side. Dee Brown's book is a very good one on the subject.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Which I'll be sure to read. As I've said before, wars are breeding grounds of atrocities. Far too often we become what we fight. The reason you don't see things like Wounded Knee earlier in the Indian Wars is because, initially, the Europeans fought using a different set of rules. However, you become what you fight, and by the end of the Wars, US soldiers were deliberately targeting buffalo, corn crops, civilians, total war in other words. I'd be remiss in not pointing out that native raids didn't take into account "civilians" vs military forces. Either way you look at it, it's an atrocity.
  
  However, your education has focused on multiple points of view and getting all sides of the story. Not that I'm exactly opposed to that, but there is a trend in education since the 1960's to emphasize multiculturalism over rationalism. That, at base, is where we diverge in our opinions.
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  Leta Sposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  LDT-- Please remember our little incident months ago and the 'cretin' thing. LOL. You actually earned my respect after that by way of your eloquently worded arguments and responses in the forums, even if we disagreed and we became friends.
  
  Similarly, SP--though she may not be right about everything (and I don't think she claims to be--maybe you just see her eloquence and obvious education and an opposite view from yours well stated and get a little angry) has earned my respect.
  
  I'll just let those statements settle. I don't need to attempt to direct the thoughts of an intelligent person, I don't think...
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think I'll ever forget that one. I'm not even really opposed to some of SP's arguments. What I really have a problem with is how she cuts people off at the knees who don't agree with her and waves her pieces of paper in other people's faces. That's a fatal flaw for any scholar to make as I've demonstrated through word and deed. I suppose I could make my point more eloquently and with less confrontation, but since she doesn't give the same consideration to others, why should I give any to her?
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  JonTutorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  @Ledefensetech How much consideration do you give to others?.... earlier you gonna call all liberals "idiots"... now you call her "fraud".... you're a case of pot calling the kettle black.... if many folks find an issue with you ... time for a little introspection.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Feel free to go back and peruse some of my older posts. Then you might get a better idea of what I'm talking about. I've just said that I took an arrogant stand because that's how she presents herself. I tend to do that. You show yourself to be reasonable, so am I; you show yourself to be arrogant, so am I. It's a pretty simple system.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Your very first comment towards me was slightly arrogant though. Up until that point I had never even spoken to you on this forum. No offense, but I think you only perceive me as arrogant. I actually can be very nice to people who are kind to me. I think you are still having a bias towards me at this point. Also, you are under the impression I am not rational, but the truth is I just do not appreciate unneeded confrontation.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I meant in general, we've always been antagonistic towards one another. I've started out the same way with people and as Lita says, become great friends. Others I've agreed to disagree with. I've also met some great people who are open minded here. And I've also met people who feel about things exactly like I do. Hubpages has the whole spectrum of human thought. That's one of the things I like about it.
  
  Like I said before, you have a habit of cutting people off at the knees when they say something you don't agree with. Also I'm not so sure you're used to debating with people who are just as educated as you are, but hold different views. I know that's why some of your comments get under my skin and I'm sure the same thing happens with you. That's an assumption on my part, but a pretty close one I think.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  To be honest I just do not seek out debates quite often, and I never claim to be good at these. Maybe that is what you are getting from my posts.
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  JonTutorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I once complained to my step dad.... "my grandpa is short tempered" ... my step dad admonished me "what about you".... I learned...... maybe I'm short tempered.... thats why I gotta find others short tempered.... think it over.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  If some people perceive me a certain way I cannot change it. They too have been confrontational towards me at times, but in their world view they just do not see it. I am not worried too much about it though because either people like me, or they do not like me. I will always be the kind person that I am, and others can choose to treat me how they like.
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  JonTutorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Talking to a woman that way.... not how my momma raised me.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Your mom sounds like a very nice person .
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  JonTutorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  She is nice .... in some ways.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  @Jon, I've been down that road many times, I know what my flaws are. I've admitted to them many times before. Thanks for pointing that out though.
  
  @Sweetie, Your sentiment is one I have enormous respect for. Again the only real beef I have is that you don't seem to question your premises. The below articles were written by Robert Ringer, a man for whom I have a great deal of respect. I imagine you might not agree with him at first, but give him a chance. His ideas will have you think about things from a radically different perspective. Surely that's worth a look in order to make your multicultural worldview a little clearer, isn't it?
  
  http://www.robertringer.com/abc-news-nightline.html
  http://www.robertringer.com/play-games.html
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  JonTutorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Cool Dude.... You're smart... no doubt... just don't consider us (liberals) as "Idiots".... we can enjoy debates... without unnecessary name calling/personal attacks.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Perhaps not, but when I see the hypocrisy out of the left about things like supporting "our" president no matter what and they way they treated the office when "their" guy wasn't in office, well if anything the leadership of the left might consider people stupid if they think that there won't be people who don't notice the hypocrisy.
  
  If I disparage the liberal mindset, it's because nobody on the left seems to study economics. Economically speaking the plans of the left are going to destroy us. That's not a matter of hyperbole or opinion, it's fact. If you think I'm to snotty or arrogant to listen to, ask Misha, he lived through it in the USSR. I treat anything he has to say with the utmost respect because he's been there and done that. I place much more weight on what people experience as opposed to what they read. In my historical hubs, I talk about this dichotomy in early modern history, you may want to check it out.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  When it comes to economics I do not think any school of thought is 100% accurate. Money is a man made invention, so it will never be one hundred percent sound. Of course our current debt is way too high, but I am willing to give it a couple of years and see how things go. Bush started us on that road, so all the blame cannot be placed on Obama.
  
  Also, talking to people who experience things, just look at the hubbers who live in the UK and Australia that have experience with nationalized health care. Once again I know you do not agree with nationalized health care, but their experiences with it are actually much more satisfactorily ranked than us Americans who pay high deductibles. Yes, I have lived through paying quite a lot for health care procedures, so that is something I can speak of with experience.
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  JonTutorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  @ledefensetech Taking an extreme example of Soviets.... very convenient.... just ignore W.Europe ... Does your view give you the right... to call all liberals as "Idiots".
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SweetiePieposted 15 years ago
Multicultural education has been around longer than the 1960's, it is only at the time it was more in the spot light with the Civil Rights movement. You may be a rationalist, but that does not discredit the cogent points found in multiculturalism. Actually, if anything, it takes into account more view points.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  True, but then all you have are a wide variety of points of view. How do you discriminate between them? In other words, how do you know a particular point of view is valid? That's where rationalism comes in.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Every situation is different, and I do not try to see one side as being better than the other. The way I look at history is that many bad things have happened in the past, and each side is passionate about their cause. I actually do not think one side has to be right over the other, but at times one side can be more brutal than the other. Rationalism is probably more important to you than I, to be quite frank. It does not mean I do not see certain events rationally, I just do not subscribe to this school of thought.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Isn't the whole point of scholarship a quest for truth? If so, then what tools do we have to discover truth? Rationalism is the only school of thought which has had a massive material impact on the largest number of people. In short, the scientific method has been the reason we've advanced so far in so short a period. Modern education ignores that fact.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That is your opinion of modern education, and you are free to have it. I on the other hand prefer multicultural education and perspectives. When it comes to studying the Middle East I have even read texts written by Queen Noor, who was an American that married King Hussein. As an American citizen I do not agree with all of her view points, but I have come to see why some people resent American intervention in different parts of the world. This does not mean I agree with their point of view, but by reading things from various view points we learn that everyone has a different one. History is will never be an exact science because of the various world views and schools of thought. That is my take on the subject.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I resent American intervention around the world. If you go back and look at some of my posts, you'll see that I am a hardcore isolationist. Nothing good will ever come out of our meddling in other people's affairs. But that doesn't mean that I subscribe to the "colonization and imperialism are unmitigated evils" school either. Like any human action, imperialism and colonialism had their good points and bad points. What we need to concern ourselves with as scholars is the school of thought that produces the most good for the largest number of people.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Being an isolationist can be good and bad. I think we could be less involved in certain areas of the world, but I do not advocate complete isolation. I am glad you enjoy being a rationalist, but that is not completely for me either.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The problem with incomplete isolation is that sooner or later excuses will be found to intervene in the world. Those interventions have little to do with the safety and security of the US. It's usually a ploy by someone who got caught doing business in a foreign land and those foreigners decide to take over that guys property. It's sad, but that's part of the risk of doing business abroad. Militarism creeps. Before you know it we're garrisoning countries and have bases all over the world.
  
  Out of curiosity, what do you see as the weaknesses of being a rationalist as opposed to a multiculturalist?
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No I see no weakness in it, but because of my ethnicity I suppose I am more of a multiculturalist. I am reading the link you gave me, so thank you for sharing. Isolationists are a very valid school of thought, and actually have many good points. I am not opposed to a country defending itself when it has too, but the number of bases and involvements we have in foreign countries is mind boggling. I do see the need for the US to participate in certain joint efforts though, so long as we are not making bad decisions that go against the advice of our allies. I was never in favor of the Iraq was for instance.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Not even the Chinese can successfully invade and garrison the US. Can you imagine them trying to control someplace like Texas or West Virginia, or any of Appalachia for that matter? Vietnam would look like a schoolyard fight in comparison. Let the world go its own way. At the very least we'll stop being blamed for just about everything that goes on in the world. "With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right". I may disagree with a lot of what Lincoln did to this country but that sentiment says it all right there.
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SweetiePieposted 15 years ago
ledefensetech

You first ever comment towards me was slightly confrontational. You told me I was the worst example of what today's educational system produces. It was with that first comment that things took a negative road. I appreciate Lita for trying to smooth things over though. She makes some really good points actually.
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Mishaposted 15 years ago
Listen to Jon, he just admitted to being my alter ego
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  JonTutorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I would love to be the Big Bull.... who knows how to get all the young "cows"
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Mishaposted 15 years ago
LOL There is more to life than just that, Jon
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  JonTutorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I know.... but that was the first real conversation.... and I still remember.... you're a wise man..... like my step dad.
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  Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you Jon
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  JonTutorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Welcome "Big Bull"...
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Mishaposted 15 years ago
May be it's good that they don't study economics? My older son has masters in economics, and he only heard about Austrian school, and don't know any details
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  JonTutorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You've a son that old.... you really are a "Big Bull".
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  Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  LOL yeah, he just turned 26
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  JonTutorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You gotta be a great dad.... you're a wise man.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well there's economics and economics. Most mainstream economists are government economists and we know where that leads don't we Misha?
  
  @Jon, the USSR is not an extreme example, that's the end result of socialism.
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  Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yep, sure, and that's exactly my point - if government oriented guys learn economics, it is government mainstream economics, which would not help our point a tiny bit...
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  But because they've had some training in classical economics, it's easier to explain to them why the Austrian model is a better predictor of economic performance than someone who has to be taught from the beginning.
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  Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  IDK, I always thought it is easier to teach from scratch, then to change the views.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I suppose I get tired of going over the basics over and over again. Until you have a basic command of that, you really can't get to the meat of the problem.
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  JonTutorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  In 50 years I will get back to you.... when the health care systems in Canada/Australia/UK/France.... exist/collapse... till then.... can we liberals... not be considered as "idiots" by you.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It'll happen quicker than that. We don't have a production based economy anymore, that's the only reason we were able to implement things like the New Deal and Great Society programs. Adding universal health care to the mix is only going to make things collapse that much sooner. It's not the cost of healthcare that's the problem anyway, it's the supply of healthcare that's the problem.
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  Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I think you don't need to wait that long. Iceland already gone, it was the flagship...
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  JonTutorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  @Misha Is he justified.... calling all liberals as "idiots"
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  Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  LOL Not ALL of course. I thought he apologized long ago.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So what should I call people who call for the same course of action despite the fact that it has been shown to lead to ruin? You can't do the same thing over and over and expect a different outcome. That is one definition of insanity, but that's not really fair to people who don't know any better.
  
  Now you've obviously accepted the label liberal and have taken offense at my assertion that liberals are idiots. What you haven't considered is that I may not consider you a liberal and therefore not an idiot. Liberals seem to be stuck in the mantra of universal healthcare now! Yet we've seen that it leads to longer waits, restricted care, etc. The liberal leadership is lying when it says that won't happen here. But everyone is focused on the word free, they don't ask themselves what it will cost. Because it will cost. Not only will it cost us in material terms but it will cost us in ways we can never know.
  
  Medical advancements only come through risk. Bureaucracies hate risks. Enact universal healthcare and you'll see R&D drop through the floor. I'd really like them to find a cure for diabetes before that happens.
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  JonTutorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  @ ledefensetech But if I'm a liberal then you gonna define us as insane and Idiot.
  
  @Misha Nowhere close to being "apologetic" for his blanket statement earlier... that all liberals are "idiots".
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  If that's how you see yourself then I'm sorry. Given what I've seen so far, I'd not class you as a liberal, at least not yet. You have potential. What remains to be seen is if you can distinguish fantasy from reality.
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  JonTutorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  But if I'm gonna be liberal then your opinion applies to everyone of us.
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Mishaposted 15 years ago
LOL Thank you Jon, but i was not always wise, you know. Whatever you call wise comes with age, and I was much younger and sillier when he was growing up. Besides, I divorced his mom when he was 15, and moved out to another country a year later. So no, I was not that great of a dad.
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  JonTutorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You admit... goes a long way in healing relationships.... my dad... no such luck.
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  Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You don't know if he is not doing just that this very moment somewhere on another forum
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  JonTutorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I wanna make peace.... just wanna move on.
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SweetiePieposted 15 years ago
However, we must also take into the account of European, Canadian, and Australian experiences with nationalized health care. I will anyway, but a little bit of socialism that these countries experience is not completely evil. I do see it as extreme to state all countries are going the way of the USSR because if anything history has taught us that Communism is on the way out. When Raoul and Fidel pass away Cuba will probably embrace a more democratic government, so it is just a matter of time.

Even China has pretty much a market economy, but they use Communism to suppress their people's thoughts and ideas. Other dictatorships as Iran and Saudi Arabia do the same thing, so that is more about dictatorship than political ideology. I talked to a Chinese man online who said no one in China could be a Christian because they are Chinese, and he immediately signed off when I pointed out there is some religion in China. Also, they do not like any type of demonstration against the government, and Western European democracies allow their people to protest just as much as Americans.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Tell that to Venezuela. The basic problem I have with socialized anything is that you have to take from someone to give to someone else. I don't care the reason, you cannot take the property of someone else and give it to another without destroying the very foundation of society. It inevitably leads to what we have today. A mindset that thinks anytime we have a problem we can go to the government for a handout. Ever ask yourself where that handout comes from?
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The UK and France hardly have the economic and social systems of Venezuela, and their experience with nationalized health care is much better. I am not asking for the government hand out personally because when it comes to my health I am serious about it. Even when I am in extreme debt I will eat the most boring things in the world, and I would never apply for food stamps. However, that is how I live my life, and I feel these social safety nets should be in place for those who are in need.
  
  I am walking four to five miles a day, and have cut soda out of my diet completely. My health is my priority, and honestly I do not even go to the doctor unless I have to. However, all humanistic countries should take care of their people, and too me that is not a hand out. I am not saying that the current health care bill is the answer, but it might actually work better than the system we now have in place. With that being said I probably should sign off and go for my daily walk .
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The Venezuela shot was about your assertion that Communism was on it's way out, not a comment on socialized healthcare.
  
  The main place we disagree is that you tend to see people as groups of people, I see them as individuals. That's a fine but important distinction. While people tend to cluster in groups, they do so according to their own individual value systems. No bureaucracy in the world can understand all the myriad reasons a person might choose one course of action over another. Bureaucracy by its very nature tries to impose a one size fits all solution on things. When talking about something as important as health care, one size fits all isn't good enough.
  
  Besides there are economic principles that are being ignored here. The high cost of healthcare is due to the restricted supply of healthcare not because people are greedy or capitalists or what have you. Medical schools limit the number of students they allow to enter medical school each year. That has an effect on the number of doctors that graduate each year and that affects the amount people will pay for healthcare. Increase the number of doctors, the cost goes down and more people can afford healthcare. Ever wonder why that argument is never put forth?
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  There are demonstrations in China everyday.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Looks like you did not read my post. I said the Chinese do not like demonstrations, not that there are no demonstrations. Tienanmen Square in 1989 is one of the most famous demonstrations ever, but look how the Chinese government dealt with the protesters.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No government 'likes' them, but they happen anyway.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  In countries like China and Iran you are much more likely to be arrested for participating. Of course people in Western countries are often arrested too, but Iran and China have horrible human rights records when it comes to political activists. If you want to go protest in China be my guest, but I would not take that risk.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I have been to protests in China. I was not shot or arrested.
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  JonTutorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Funny logic... Some of the Tibetan Monks still survive... no such thing as Genocide happened in China...
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Genocide? No, not really. Lots and lots of monks still survive. The CCP sucks and its history is one of terrible waste, destruction, death, and stupidity, but genocide? Not really.
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  JonTutorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I took a meditation course in a tibetan temple in Seattle... have seen pictures and read about it.... do you have any idea... what those monks went through... in fact still going through.... Why're you defending China?.... open secret... religion/human rights abuses common in Communist Chinese regime.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I have spent time in Tibet visiting monks in temples THERE and hearing directly from them and the lay people of Tibet. I also know the CCP 'version' of the same history and what the average Han Chinese thinks about it. I have worked with Tibetan refugees in the US, helping them learn English, acclimate to their new home, and develop marketable skills. They shared some harrowing tales of oppression and escape. I know how bad the CCP is and has been in regard to Tibet and in general. I am not "defending" the CCP by taking issue with your use of hyperbole.
  
  Got it?
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  JonTutorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The only reason I used that word... to make you see futility of your logic.... I wasn't hurt.. therefore no such thing could have happened.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  When did I say that? If you are going to mention "logic" you might want to employ it.
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  JonTutorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  @Tksensei You said it here. You were lucky not to be hurt... that doesn't mean Iran/China its safe for everyone to protest.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I didn't say I was lucky not to be hurt OR that my being there means no one is shot or arrested at protests in China (and everywhere else). Keep up.
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SweetiePieposted 15 years ago
Venezuela is another isolated case, and I definitely do not see the US going down the road of Communism. At the end of the day we cannot change anyone's political system, but ours will remain in tact even if we do get nationalized health care. However, many people are opposed to it, so it might not even pass at this point.

Yes we should admit more people to medical schools, I do agree with you there. My friend was rejected from medical school, which was surprising because she had completed a pre-med program in Vietnam, and was then required to go through it when she came to the US. She ended up applying for dental school instead, so I am not discounting your ideas about improving the system. Just wanted to share that.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I hope you're right, but I've read about Mendelev's betrayal by the Bolsheviks, the Polish government in exile by the Soviets and other Communist revolutions around the world. All it takes is a ruthless group of conspirators and a population that doesn't understand the value of liberty. I see that all around us today.
  
  Ever ask yourself why we don't mint more doctors in the US? There's obviously a need for them.
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SweetiePieposted 15 years ago
They want to control the supply and demand of doctors in this country perhaps. Maybe I could ask my friend because she is studying to be a PA.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Got it in one! It's the supply more than the demand, demand for doctors is pretty inelastic. That means that no matter the cost of healthcare people will still pay it. As an aside I've recently decided to become a PA myself. At least then, if things collapse, I'll have skills that will be in high demand.
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SweetiePieposted 15 years ago
I think becoming a PA is a good move! My friend is very happy she entered the program.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'll have to do a bit of preliminary work as I've not studied biology or healthcare in any depth before. My current plan is to get licensed as an RN, get a BSN then advance to PA. I figure I'll get a lot of hands on experience that only make my labor more valuable to a potential employer. It'll take about four years though. Thank God I have most of the prerequisites out of the way. No going back through English comp for me.
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SweetiePieposted 15 years ago
My friend had a master's degree in IO psychology, and none of the pre-requisites in science needed for the program. She spent 2005-2007 going to community colleges in her area to simply take all the science and bio classes she needed. It seems like PA's have more flexibility about where they want to work than doctors, but I could be wrong. This is just the impression I get from talking to my friend.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well they have to be supervised by a doctor, but other than that they can do anything else a GP can do. There are actually bills in several states that will allow them to write prescriptions similar to what an MD can do. I'm sure there will be limits, no psychotropics, narcotics, etc. but that's more than they can do right now. I see PA's and NP's gaining more and more power as the number of GP's dwindle.
  
  One thing I do see is a broader acceptance of foreign degrees like those from the Caribbean, so when it's all said and done maybe I'll go practice in a tropical location while I work on my MD. That's about a decade in the future though. My BSN will require I take 12 hours of biology. I loaded up on chemistry my last time through school. Ooops. Oh well, at least I have scientific training, that'll help.
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  Colebabieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  PAs can already write scripts. At least in Florida anyway. PA schools ( in Florida) require 4-6 hours bio, microbiology, 8 hours chem, medical terminology, genetics (some), social and behavioral science courses, some organic chem or biochem, A&P, some stats, etc. Lots of courses that a lot of people have to go back to school to obtain. Hence my major in biology But I also chose to be a bio major way before I decided to be a PA. Your BSN will definitely help in PA school, just make sure you fit in the other prereqs.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  PA's writing scripts varies by state. MO might be allowing that soon. I hope to get into St. Louis University. If I can do that after getting a BSN, I'll have no trouble with the prerequisites. If not, I'll shop around. I'm sure there are plenty of programs that will accept someone with a BSN.
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ledefensetechposted 15 years ago
Heck I'm against Sotomayor and I'm Hispanic. But then again I'm also against Obamacare, so there you go.
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Mishaposted 15 years ago
Well, that's between you guys, I can't be held responsible for other's behavior
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Colebabieposted 15 years ago
What are your criteria for being classified as a liberal?
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  JonTutorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Is this question for me?
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  Colebabieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No Jon, ledefensetech, he is the one doing the classing.
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  JonTutorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Never mind ... I also try to size up others..... but don't consider blanket statements appropriate.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Anyone who follows a Progressive agenda. In short, anyone who thinks that more government intervention in anything is a good thing.
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  JonTutorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That is a narrow view of liberals... refer to my earlier statement.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Like I said, I don't consider you a liberal...yet. You, however do and take my disparagement of liberals personally. Not my problem.
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  JonTutorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So you see nothing wrong in blanket statements?
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not interested in discussing semantics with you.
  
  http://www.mises.org
  
  Do some reading, then we'll talk.
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  JonTutorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I see... Not really "apologetic"... I'm gonna read... what I wanna read... thanks but no thanks.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I still fail to see what I need to apologize for. If you're unwilling to learn a little, then we really do have little to talk about.
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  JonTutorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Refer to Misha... you were "apologetic" for calling all liberals "Idiots".... which even now... clearly you're not.... Are you willing to learn too?... Don't give me your attitude.... I'm done talking to you.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'd say don't take offense, but you will, I would have back in the day. You're a kid and you think you know everything. I don't like talking to kids who think they know everything. If you're willing to bend, so am I, but if you're not why waste our time. The only thing I can learn from you is how kids these days think. In return, I can help you avoid the pitfalls I made when I was your age and thought I was so smart. I get a little, you get a lot. But if you're not interested, why bother?
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  Colebabieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Why are you playing the age card?
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Because I'm not interested in talking to a kid who doesn't want to learn. It's a waste of both of our times. If he doesn't want to hear what I have to say I can't force him. Likewise, I don't have to play his semantics games either. That was old when I was his age. Is there a reason why I shouldn't play the age card?
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  Colebabieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Because not everything can be attributed to age. He's not a kid. He asked you a question. He is just trying to understand where you're coming from. He's been listening to what you have to say.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Quite a bit, however, can. He wanted to engage in a contest of "what the definition of is is". That's the kinds of arguments parents have with their kids these days. I outgrew that long ago. He'll either have the stones to confront me and open a dialog or he won't. Personally I hope he does, he seems like he has great potential, but that's not enough. It's what you do with that potential that counts.
  
  I've done this plenty of times with kids that have "mental health problems". Actually it's easier working with them because they at least start out with the idea that something is wrong. Often times they think it's them, but usually it's the way they look at things and them mimicking the role models they've had in their life up to that time. Just like here, with those kids it was up to them if they wanted to learn and grow and become something better than what they started. It was hard and it was difficult but what surprised me was the number of kids who made it.
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  Colebabieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  But he is an adult. I'm not sure what you're getting at with your analogy. Seems to me he was questioning your definition because it was a generalization and didn't make much sense. He was looking for an explanation.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Age doesn't make someone an adult. I have a dear friend who just turned 40 and in many ways her personal life reminds me of high school drama. It's what you do that determines if you are an adult or not. We have yet to see with Jon if he is an adult or can learn to be one.
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  Colebabieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed, maturity doesn't necessarily correspond to age.
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  JonTutorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'm gonna be 21 in Nov... so really not a kid.... and for the record... I never engaged in discussing definitions/semantics... Colebabie called out Ledefensetech earlier.... I thought the question was for me and then I gave my view... from the beginning... I have been saying.. I don't like everybody as a group to be generalized.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Off topic, but one day you will likely see 20 as very much a 'kid.'
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  Colebabieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Depends on the person.
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  JonTutorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I may or may not... a hypothetical question really.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Man, do I wish I were 20 again. For the record I'm going to turn 34 in a couple of months.
  
  As for generalizations, well get used to it. Everyone does it. It's a sort of mental shorthand people use so they don't get overwhelmed with information overload. I think I read about it on livescience or something. If you're really interested I can track down the link.
  
  What matters is what you do as an individual and the choices you make. Ever see Crips and Bloods: Made in America? Great documentary. There were some things I found puzzling about it, but one of the things I noticed near the end was a mural in South Central that said something like "Only we can stop this war". After 20 years of being in what amounts to a war zone and waiting for someone else to do something, these people are now doing it themselves. Powerful stuff.
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  JonTutorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks for talking to me nicely.... I appreciate it... I'm gonna checkout our local public library for that documentary.... Gotta go now.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Have a good one. Just so you know, respect is earned. You're making a good start.
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  JonTutorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks Dude.. this place is really addictive.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Not me.
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  JonTutorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Is it really a game of semantics... Insanity/Idiot for the entire group? My grandpa is 70 ... still has some gaps... I'm not saying I'm smart.. I'm cool debating ... I have friends who're from a broad spectrum... but my folks in Idaho... staunch conservatives... nothing wrong in having different views... but I'm not gonna stand for stereotypes/blanket statements from strangers online about our supposed lack of "intelligence".
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, your comment about blanket definitions was an attempt at semantics. It sounds like you hold a lot of your views in opposition to your parents. Lord knows I had a us or them view of things when I was younger. I could kick myself now over how long I held that view. Just so you know I held the conservative vs liberal views until year 2 or so of the Iraq War. The reason I gave you that link was that was the site that really got me to questioning the whole right vs left thing and why it has to be one party vs another.
  
  As for intelligence, that's often times measured by your willingness to do things that others aren't. I get a lot of flack for telling people they're intellectually lazy. When they don't attempt to read and experience something new, they are. Another thing you'll notice is that I'm very un-PC. Sometime I might tell some stories about the kids I worked with and how PC set them up to fail.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It is not accurate to tell people they are intellectual lazy because often people do read, but it is an assumption that they do not. Also, they may read books you consider not to be of your world view, but that does not discredit their learning. I actually must say we need to stop telling people how to be, and start looking for the beauty in who people are as individuals. I know you say you are individualistic, but as an introvert who does not expect people to change much I feel maybe I actually am more individualistic than you in some ways. Do you see what I mean?
  
  Being a introvert I never had this desire to be so control freaky over people by telling people to do something, because requesting that people change is actually commanding. Maybe you might find people are more willing to listen to you if you share rather than command. That is what I take from that.
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  Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That's a good stuff to read, I agree.
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JonTutorposted 15 years ago
@Colebabie IMO....there're folks who are socially liberal on issues like Gay marriage, Gun control, Abortion... but fiscally conservative.... two folks in this category... Misha and Onthewriteside.

I'm liberal socially... but neutral fiscally.
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  Colebabieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah that's what I said. No one is completely anything on all topics. If you are, then you aren't thinking for yourself.
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  Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well, to the best of my knowledge my position on gun control is conservative, just for the record
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  JonTutorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Still haven't finished my analysis.... but what do you think so far... anyway gotta go now ... can't spend any more time online.
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  Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Come back Jon, when you can.
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SweetiePieposted 15 years ago
At the end of the day it really does not matter how anyone classifies another person. I have seen people on all sides of the political spectrum call their opposition "idiots," and to me the term is quite trite.
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Colebabieposted 15 years ago
Well if ledefensetech's standards of a liberal happen to include me, then I suppose he now labels me as an idiot. Which he knows I'm not Showing the fault in his accusations.
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  Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I am starting to think that behind your back may be not the safest place around
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  JonTutorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You're always safe... "Big Bull" is... friends with.... liberals on social issues... conservatives on fiscal issues.
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  Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  LOL Lord, save me from friends, enemies I can handle myself.
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  JonTutorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  True... there're some "friends"... if we have them... we don't need enemies.
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  Colebabieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  But you like the view, so you're stayin there right?
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  Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Actually I like the feel, too - but you don't let me
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  Colebabieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Once is cool, twice alright, three times I'll look the other way. But just keeping them there, no thanks, I can't concentrate
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  JonTutorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Borrowing Misha's line... guys get a room.
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  Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Allright, I'll try to keep them down to two-three. Per minute?
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  Colebabieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That's better. Now I have to go, I'll be back later. Behave yourself.
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  JonTutorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Good deals on hotels.com
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  Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  LOL
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  Colebabieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Haha. Bye guys.
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  Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I will. Come back soon.
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  JonTutorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I dunno... IMO some folks consider personal attack... only when it is personally addressed... but blanket statements ... gonna be blanket personal attack... which I do take issue with.
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  Colebabieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No personal attack to me. I find it difficult to call words from someone I don't know a "personal attack"
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Mighty Momposted 15 years ago
*Enters holding a safety pin and a label* "Can someone help me pin this on my back? I can't read what it says, but I am sure I should be wearing it!

At the risk of inciting a riot, I would like to say that recently I have enjoyed reading viewpoints on different sides of issues here on HP. As long as the writer has a reasoned approach and is not regurgitating rhetoric without the slightest understanding of what they're talking about, it's good to see how the "other side" thinks.

The key word is THINKING.
And there are some very clear thinkers here. Along with some emotional zealots...
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  Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Did I already tell you "I love you" today?
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  JonTutorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  She is very smart and balanced.... I love you too
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Colebabieposted 15 years ago
The label says "Amazing woman" MM, sure I'll pin it on you...
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SweetiePieposted 15 years ago
Well I have been called worse on this site personally, and some how I do not even think he means it when he calls people "idiots". Honestly I think people only use this term when they want to elicit an emotional reaction, and not a fact based one.
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  Colebabieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well no emotional reaction outta me. Sure I've been called stupid little girl, silly, dumb, abercrombie cheerleader... lots of stuff. But I've also been called good things, even great things. The point is, it doesn't matter what someone calls me. People make assumptions all the time. But so far, for every person who has called me one thing, there is someone else on this site to dispute it and back me up
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I think the people who use the term are attempting to elicit that reaction, but you are very good not too fall for their tactics .
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SweetiePieposted 15 years ago
Basically I just do not care if someone thinks liberal voters are "idiots" or "gods" because I am still going to vote how I am going to vote.
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Liberal Proudposted 15 years ago
Lying,Cheating out and out Stealing, Mis appropriattion of Funds, this is embraced by the Right. A president that LIED us into a war, a VP that is Spineless, Gutless and a TRAITOR. The suspenion of Civil liberties the Trashing of the US Constitution. the Writer of this page wants to Trash a PRESIDENT that is trying to straighten out a INCOMPETENT , president, vp, congress and senate, a pass president that vacationed while thousands drowned then rewarded the Incompetent fool, a Administration that misused the CIA and did illegal WIRE TAPS, that forgave the tabacco Industry of %0 miilion dollars in fines.This is just the tip of the iceberg, lets not forget our loss of sttuer in the International community, the ILLEGAL tortures where the COWARDS on the right blamed innocent troops who were following orders. Please inform me how bad PRESIDENT OBAMA is when compared to a Anal retentive president that not only almost sank the US economy but the World economy as well. I forgot he is a BLACK MAN and that is what it is REALLY all about a bunch of wacko right wing boys who can't stand to have a BLACKMAN, once that is addressed and acknowledged most of the problems will go away.
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Colebabieposted 15 years ago
Sorry defensetech, I just don't understand.
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Colebabieposted 15 years ago
Agreed Jon, I don't either.
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blangrehrposted 15 years ago
Somebody, anybody, give me a country that has only government ran healthcare and has anywhere near our population. The lie about other countries and better healthcare is just that. We have the best doctors and the best healthcare. The numbers and rankings being talked about are put together by the United Nations, that's the same people selling the world on the man made climate change. This debate is not and has never been about "fixing healthcare" or "reeducing cost" it's about power...government control. So believe what you want, pat yourself on the back because you are sharp and learned; the future will not change. Congress will pass this freedom ending bill and America will be the worst for it...remember you helped.
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Mishaposted 15 years ago
I think I am. Noticeably happier than many people around.
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  Army Infantry Momposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yea,..Look your always smiling in your pic,..LOL
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well I am pretty happy too .
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  Army Infantry Momposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Me Tooooo !!!!! (High Five)
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I know you are happy. I like your attitude. Sorry if I am getting silly in my answers to mr. sensei, but he questions me about everything, but never answers some of my questions lol. I actually have a bit of fun posting here because I know he is going to ask me more questions lol.
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SweetiePieposted 15 years ago
I write very well thank you. Also, when people are typing fast they make errors from time to time, so get over it! I do not need any correction from you because I love my writing style. If I were writing this as a paper I would go back and smooth it over, and you are being vapid not to realize that. I am in love with myself. I feel more confident around people like you. People like you never build anyone up.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well, which one is it?
  
  No doubt about that!
  
  .............................
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Actually I do love myself very much. Sorry, but you assume some really untrue things. I think you are insecure because you question people so much.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, I'm sure you do.
  
  ................................
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  Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What's wrong with this TK?
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It's a long story.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  BS 'affirmations' in place of honesty never builds anyone up. It just sets them up.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Being snarky and incessant never makes anyone consider you a true friend. Of course I do not think you are interested in being my friend, just my grand inquisitor .
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not interested in being either one. YOU seem very interested in jumping from topic to topic.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well if you are not interested in being my grand inquisitor then stop asking so many questions. We already know what everyone thinks about health care, Obama, and the whole nine yards.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  If you aren't interested in discussion maybe the forum isn't the place for you.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Why would you need to go back and smooth it over if you love your writing style?
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jiberishposted 15 years ago
I've been gone a while, but can't help notice that Sweetie Pie still has to have the last word.
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Eaglekiwiposted 15 years ago
Im sure they like each other really

hell sounds like our family of nine kids when I was growing up

'tit for tat'

seriously I think if SP and TK were hanging out at the beach ,they would chat n spat up a storm.

Communication is good dont ya think jiberish?
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  jiberishposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It's what makes the world go round.
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Ron Montgomeryposted 15 years ago
These right wing thugs are not acting in the traditions or spirit of American political debate. They are organized and sent to attack and kill the discussions, not promote an alternative viewpoint. Their childish actions are the town hall meetings' version of the religious fanatics who like to shut down HubPages forums. No logical debate, just angry fear tactics with words supplied by Fox News.

We had a town hall meeting in Flagstaff where these wackos were put on notice that they would be booted out for unruly behavior. Both sides expressed their opinions like adults and guess what. Each side came away with an appreciation of the other's concerns. Future discussions should begin under the same rules: Act like animals, expect to be caged.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So how do you feel about the tactics of groups like the Black Panthers or the Nation of Islam?
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Haven't seen them in any local town hall meetings, but they're welcome to attend under the same rules. If they can't behave, we have comfy cages for them.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  "Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security."
  
  I suppose those words mean nothing to you.
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Au contraire mon fraire. They mean so much to me that I refuse to toss them wrecklessly about; over issues where they don't apply. We are not going to kill each other over health insurance reform as you seem to be implying with your constant references to revolution and anarchy. We don't need Tea parties and theatrics, we need reasoned discourse.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The fox doesn't reason with the hare before having lunch. Have you ever studied the philosophy behind Progressivism? In reality it's an update of the old Hamilton-Jefferson rivalry. We've always had those who have championed centralized government over decentralized government in this country. The problem is that if you centralize power, you cannot allow any dissent. People get testy when you don't allow them to disagree and especially when you force them on a course they don't want to go.
  
  I've mentioned the war protesters before and I do so again to illustrate how again a large portion of the population was not being heard when the government unilaterally decided to declare war and send our kids to die on foreign shores. There was no decorum there. There was no reasoned argument there. Yet because it was a situation with which you agree, I see no condemnation of it. Since you agree with universal healthcare, you now condemn the protesters being without decorum.
  
  Many of these protesters see universal healthcare as the ultimate violation of their right to live. We all have the right to choose how we live and, in the end, how we die. Of course, sometimes circumstances choose you, but part of wisdom is knowing what you can choose and what you can't. Personally speaking I've worked in government bureaucracies before and am horrified at the thought of letting the types of people who not only work there, but thrive there, the ability to make healthcare choices for anyone, much less everyone. That is the part of the argument the government is ignoring.
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Where in the world did you get the ridiculous idea that I am for Universal Healthcare? I have advocated civility and cast doubt on your theory that we are at the edge of a revolutionary tsunami, which of course is upsetting to you, but I have never stated that I was for universal (single payer) national health insurance.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I noticed you used single payer as an example. That's only one type of healthcare. Going by that it can be assumed that you are for some sort of universal healthcare. Like I said, it's a question of supply, not a question of cost.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Of course they are. Political debate historically has been much more 'lively' than it generally is today.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What color is your shirt?
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What color is your collar?
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No collar.
  
  What color is your shirt?
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No shirt. Why do you care Doggie Troll?
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I just thought maybe it was brown, what with all your talk of putting the "animals" who dare talk back to their political masters in cages.
  
  But if you don't have a shirt I'm afraid I'll have to ask you to leave this thread. No shirt, no shoes, no service.
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Did you hire LDT as your consultant? You're starting to sound like him. Expression from all sides is desirable. Behaving like an adult, (human, not doggie) is necessary if ideas are to be exchanged. Everybody has a chance to talk at these meetings, but the Glen Beck driven zombies aren't there to talk or listen, just to kill the meeting. Free your mind, your tail will follow.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I rather think my comebacks are wittier. Sigh. Nobody appreciates genius. Funny how you consider people who don't agree with you to be Glen Beck "zombies". But then again I like a lot of what he says, so by your lights I'm a zombie too. Still there is a bit of pot calling kettle in your statement.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Perish the thought.
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry, that was below the belt even for me.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Sir, yes sir! Forgive me sir!
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Ron Montgomeryposted 15 years ago
Decorum is certainly a relevant issue here. Why should only the thugs be heard? There are some things you can force people to do against their will, behaving properly in public meetings is one of them.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It isn't thugs that are being heard. Funny how I don't hear you saying that war protesters should be locked up. Many of them pushed decorum way over the limit. You might be content as criminals strip your rights away, but many others are not. That is exactly why our government was to be limited in scope. The founders knew enough to know that a government that tried to be all things would not do anything right. We knew that once, now it looks like it is time to remember why they set things up the way they did.
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Criminals aren't taking any rights away from me; if they try they go to the same cages as the thugs. Protest is legitimate, prologed disruption of public forums is not. Carry your signs on the street, let the adults have a conversation.
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SweetiePieposted 15 years ago
I never supported the war, but honestly I did not agree with the war protesters that were disruptive either. If they wanted to stand on the street and protest peacefully that is one thing, but when they started disrupting the flow of traffic, or crossing police lines I have no sympathy. I have never protested with signs, I simply share my thoughts in writing or with my friends. However, I do support those who protest peacefully, as long as they are not breaking public laws, screaming, or being disrespectful to the police. On a side note I saw just as many disruptive protesters in favor and against prop eight in California, and these people were from both the right and left wing sides.
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Colebabieposted 15 years ago
Ledefensetech, where do you get your information from regarding a deliberate doctor shortage? Why do you think it is deliberate?
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  In 1900 there were about 500,000 licensed allopathic doctors in the US. In 2000 there were about 600,000 licensed allopathic doctors in the US. In that time we have gone from a population of 100 million to 300 million. Ever ask yourself why doctors no longer make house calls?
  
  In that time we've seen a limit to the number of students that are allowed to study in medical schools. The only reason you do that is to control the supply of graduates, in this case doctors. So there has been a...not conspiracy, but tendency of groups like the AMA to feather their nests at the expense of everyone else.
  
  The main reason this was not noticeable before was due to the rising standard of living in the West over the last century. Money is not a measure of the wealth of nations, but production. I can go into that if you'd like, but the explanation is lengthy. Today, mainly due to the effects of inflation, we no longer have a rising standard of living. So as costs continue to increase, we devote less and less money to those costs. We get squeezed in other words. It's just now gotten to the point where we are feeling the pain from being squeezed. Unless you understand how we got here in the first place, you really can't devise a sustainable plan to get us out of this mess. None of the politicians in Washington, or elsewhere, have shown that they understand the economic fundamentals behind our problems, so any remedy they suggest will, sooner or later, fail.
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SweetiePieposted 15 years ago
Well I can say I would support Ron Paul over any Republican candidate, I do agree with you there. Some Libertarians are liberal like Bill Maher, and I actually find myself agreeing with much of what he says. I am not completely opposed to the Libertarian principles, I just do not see Washington bending to all of their ideas.

As for Clinton being an adulterer, so were many of the other presidents. Ronald Regan and Bush Sr. had affairs, FDR, Kennedy, and many other presidents. I thought it was a ridiculous waste of money to try him for having a bj, and not even full on sex. I could care less if a president has sex in the White House as long as he is doing his job. Who care, I do not because I know many men have done it. The whole thing was ridiculous. Only Hillary has the right to punish him, and in many ways I think she has since lol.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly. That's where the protests come in. By centralizing power, government is taking choices away from people. This is what the protests are really about. It's like that Aesop's fable story about trying to please everyone. You can't do it. The best the government can do is please the people who put them into power, but then you have the people who are de facto locked out of power left to their own devices. That always means revolution. The only real question is how long it will take to get to that point.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You are welcome to keep trying to fight for less government, but I just do not see it happening. However, maybe think about running for office where you can make some real change. If you have the ideas maybe people would listen, you know what I mean?
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Unlike Ron Paul, I see politics as a job for scumbags. I'm much more content trying to change things one person at a time. You know individual-like. Like a Libertarian, come to think of it. Incidentally you might be interested in reading more about the Old Right. Just type that in the search box at this site: http://www.mises.org
  
  You really learn a lot when you study the political history of the US. You may come to find out, much like I did, that often times you don't know what you think you know.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I saw that site last night and read a couple of articles. I do not agree with all of what it said, but it was interesting. Like I said keep trying to change America one individual at a time, there is nothing wrong with that. As a PA you can be an advocate for patients rights, so I am sure you can do a lot of good.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  As a PA my concern will be getting the best information to my patients as possible. The one good thing I can say about my tenure working for the state is that my BS detection skills are pretty much stellar. I can spot a PC or biased report from miles away now.
  
  By trying to affect things beyond an individual level, you start to get into the Law of Unintended Consequences territory. That's why you can start out with great intentions and still majorly screw things up. i.e. Politics.
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  Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah I just read the article titled 'What Is Free Trade?' on that site too. But I do not agree with it at all. It smacks of US self centeredness. But other countries are involved with free trade agreements too.
  
  Before Mulroney shoved it down Canadian throats by signing the Free Trade Agreement (US and Canada) then NAFTA (US, Mexico and Canada) every Prime Minister before him, back to John A MacDonald said there can not be reciprocity (free trade) with the US because of the disproportionate economy of scale. Before the free trade agreements US companies were supplying goods and services to 10 times the amount of people in the US than Canadian companies were supplying to Canadians. Now after the free trade agreements US companies are controlling some markets in Canada. Mulroney is the most hated Prime Minister in Canadian history. He got away with it because his party held a majority at the time. The list of Canadian companies that have gone tits up since the signing of the free trade agreements is endless.
  
  The World Trade Organization element in NAFTA was suppose to eliminate subsidies. But while Canada was eliminating subsidies to farmers the US was increasing subsidies to US farmers that grew genetically modified food produce. And if you have never heard of the soft wood lumber disputes, well Canada has always won at the WTO but the disputes stopped the sales until the long WTO adjudication process was finished.
  
  It's the same in Mexico too. Mexican farmers have gone out of business because US produce exported to Mexico is less expensive. Not better, just less expensive. In fact not as good because of the shipping time. This has brought about Mexican illegal aliens crossing the US border to find work. Drugs from South America used to be smuggled through the Caribbean, now they are smuggled through Mexico thanks to NAFTA. All the crap in Mexico lately with the drug lords is about who controls the drug smuggling.
  
  NAFTA won't be good for people in the US either because it is making multi-national monopolies in certain business sectors which will eventually drive the price of goods and services up. Plus increasing illegal aliens and the threat of very violent drug wars crossing the Rio Grande. Only multi-national corporations will gain with these free trade agreements.
  
  Besides NAFTA will not stop protectionist measures anyway because states, provinces and municipalities are not members of NAFTA. Just yesterday at the "Three Amigos" summit in Mexico Obama had to respond to Canadian and Mexican complaints about the "Buy American Clause" in the stimulus package.
  Stimulus Package's Buy American Clause In The News
  'Buying American' Puts Strain on U.S. Trade With Canada
  Canada, U.S. business groups unite against Buy American
  
  Here's a quote from the last report above. CME is the Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters.
  
  “The clock is ticking. That is a very credible threat of retaliation,” said the CME’s Mr. Myers. “What is at stake here is over $15-billion in business for American companies in the (Canadian) municipal procurement market itself.”
  
  I have been wanting NAFTA appealed since it was signed. NAFTA is no good for the people of the US, Mexico or Canada. And the North American Union will be even worse for the people of all three countries.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Your definition and my definition of free trade are not anything alike. I real free trade agreement would say "We wont attach tariffs to your goods if you don't attach tariffs to ours." Anything else is protectionism and not free trade.
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  Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That is what both the Free Trade Agreement and NAFTA were suppose to be about as well, reducing tariffs. The US argument to the WTO with the soft wood lumber disputes was that Canadian lumber companies were being subsidized which the US claimed were akin to a tariff because US lumber companies were not being subsidized. Canada continually proved to the WTO that Canadian lumber companies were not being subsidized, yet Canadian lumber companies still lost out because sales stopped during the long WTO adjudication process. Getting rid of tariffs also eventually got rid of many US company's Canadian competition for the Canadian market. That is exactly what every Prime Minister before Mulroney feared. Read my previous post to see where protectionism is coming from. And there goes NAFTA. I can hear the papers ripping already.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No it wasn't. Anything other than "eliminate tariffs on my goods and I'll reciprocate" is not free trade no matter what it says in the title. Have you ever noticed that whatever some governmental law, treaty or plan says in the title, it usually has the opposite effect. We were as lied to in the US as you were in Canada or my family was in Mexico. You have to love the wonderful world of PC.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Look, free trade is going to hurt some domestic producers. There's no getting around that. The benefit is that costs go down for Canadians as cheaper goods become available. This raises the standard of living for everyone in the free trade zone. In addition, Canadian firms that are at the top of their fields benefit because their costs, too, go down, making them even more competitive and more likely to expand operations which leads to rising employment.
  
  The fly in the ointment are the lobbyists of those industries that will get hurt. Rather than looking at the overall picture, the treaty gets bogged down as each negotiator tries to limit the damage to as many of their domestic producers as they can. What you wind up with is not free trade, but more protectionism.
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  Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry you self proclaimed genius but that is total BS. Do you even realize what economy of scale means? Do you actually think that every market sector should be taken down to one monopolizing company, a US one no doubt? Do you see how your laissez-faire capitalism and free trade agreements can lead to communism?
  
  When you quoted my post you missed this part "Read my previous post to see where protectionism is coming from. And there goes NAFTA. I can hear the papers ripping already."
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Do you realize that in a free market no company can afford to start a monopoly just so they can jack up rates. Where do you get this stuff. Unless there are some artificial barriers to entry, some start up is going to come along and put your mythical monopolist out of business. Why do you think the US has been shedding industrial jobs over the last few decades? Competing in business means controlling your costs. If you can't do that you go out of business. That is what Standard Oil was all about. If Rockefeller had gotten his monopoly and then jacked up rates, some smart competitor would have come in at a lower price and cleaned his clock.
  
  Besides business shifts so much yesterdays golden boy is today's tragedy. Look at IBM. They used to rule the computer industry. Before Dell, Gateway and others. Those guys and cheaper labor from the East are what have gotten a computer into most households in advanced nations. Free markets equal competition. It's only through control type economies that you get the kind of stuff you talk about when you think monopoly. Think about it. Drugs are, in part, so expensive because in the US, they have a government mandated monopoly on the sale. Do you really thing drugs would be that expensive if there were no monopoly?
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  Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Good I'm glad you agree that NAFTA was a bad idea and that it should be repealed too. Not renegotiated, tossed out. I can hardly wait.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'd have no problem with it as long as it were renegotiated to eliminate all tariffs. Canada would benefit because it would do what it is good at as well as the US and Mexico. This would lower costs, increase the standard of living and make everyone better off in the free trade zone. NAFTA is not a free trade agreement by any stretch of the imagination.
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  Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The Canadian people have not benefited from NAFTA.
  The Mexican people have not benefited from NAFTA.
  And the people in the US have not benefited from NAFTA.
  
  And we never will, whether it is renegotiated or not.
  
  Only large multi-national corporations benefit from free trade agreements. If the people of a country can grow or manufacture goods or services then they should be grown or manufactured in that country. Not imported from some wantabe monopolist.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Economics in One lesson by Harry Hazlitt. Or ask yourself this. Why did it take until after the Crusades for Europe to climb out of the Dark Ages?
  
  "The protectionists, in advocating their system, always spend a great deal of effort and eloquence on appeals to patriotism, and to international jealousies. These are all entirely aside from the point. The protective system is a domestic system, for domestic purposes, and it is sought by domestic means. The one who pays, and the one who gets, are both Americans. The victim and the beneficiary are amongst ourselves. It is just as unpatriotic to oppress one American as it is patriotic to favor another. If we make one American pay taxes to another American, it will neither vex nor please any foreign nation.
  
  The protectionists speak of trade with the contempt of feudal nobles, but on examination it appears that they have something to sell, and that they mean to denounce trade with their rivals. They denounce cheapness, and it appears that they do so because they want to sell dear. When they buy, they buy as cheaply as they can. They say that they want to raise wages, but they never pay anything but the lowest market rate. They denounce selfishness, while pursuing a scheme for their own selfish aggrandizement, and they bewail the dominion of self-interest over men who want to enjoy their own earnings, and object to surrendering the same to them. They attribute to government, or to "the state," the power and right to decide what industrial enterprises each of us shall subscribe to support."
  
  That's as true now as it was when it was penned over a century ago.
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  Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Okay seeing you do not want to go back to my previous post to see where the protectionist measures are coming from I'll copy it here. Guess what pal, if Obama does not make an immediate 'change' and the US municipalities don't follow suit then we can basically kiss NAFTA good by. And I will be the first one to say good riddins.
  
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Again, NAFTA as it is written sucks. It's not a free trade document. I'd support NAFTA if it were a real free trade document, but it isn't. Hence my lack of support. The only thing that can be called a free trade document would consist of one sentence. "No tariffs on our products, no tariffs on your products". Very easy, very simple. If you want Canada to be self sufficient, good luck, it's impossible. I don't care how many natural resources you have, you still need trade.
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  nicompposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  yawn. Valid sources please. And I won't hold my breath.
  
  For the gazillionth time, he was impeached because he lied to a grand jury, not for his unfaithfulness. You probably already know that.
  
  Your opinion doesn't really matter; the rule of law held sway.
  
  She should have divorced him. That would have zinged his career and made her look like more of a victim in the eyes of the radical feminists.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Any one who watches the news or has read history knows that many presidents have had affairs. Unlike you I can search the Internet and do not need to list a whole bunch of sites every single moment of the day. I am a valid source, and people who condescend to imply someone does not know what they are talking about really should get over it!
  
  Yes Clinton may have lied about the bj, but it was the self righteous, bureaucratic, money spending Republicans who pursued that agenda of impeaching him. I have little respect for self-righteous people, and anyone who was upset about the Clinton and Monica thing really needs to focus on their own life. You can chop up my posts, but I noticed that usually control freaks do so. So what if Hillary did not divorce Bill, you are not her mommy. I could care less about the sexual lives of politicians, and Americans are very puritanical in their caring about this.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Oh brother...
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  nicompposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  sigh.
  
  True. Guilty as charged.
  
  You say "puritanical" as if it's a bad thing.
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SweetiePieposted 15 years ago
I am reading the article on free trade from that site, which is very interesting.
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ledefensetechposted 15 years ago
Most of them are. Wait till you get into the literature section. Just as an aside, that site was the one which turned me against the Iraq war. I'm curious if you can figure out why.
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Make Moneyposted 15 years ago
Ledefensetech you are talking in circles. If the US claims a fictional subsidy is akin to a tariff then "No tariffs on our products, no tariffs on your products" will not work. If Canada finally realizes that it does not have a partner that it can trust in a trade agreement without it trying to continually manipulate the agreement then Canada will find other trading partners, bottom line. You still haven't seemed to realize that the protectionist measures are coming from Obama's "Buy American Clause" in the stimulus package. Yap on all you want, I've said what I wanted to.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hey they have a point. Yet the US is just as guilty. A subsidy is a de jure protectionist method. By subsidizing a crop you make it more affordable, thus you can compete with inexpensive imports. All governments do it and all governments are guilty of it. It's otherwise known as wealth redistribution.
  
  Buy American, too is a de jure protectionist measure. I don't agree with much Obama does.
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tksenseiposted 15 years ago
SOMEBODY got "de jure" on their word-a-day calendar...
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tksenseiposted 15 years ago
And now word that folks are starting to get unsolicited emails from the White House pushing this health care 'plan'?
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webstageposted 15 years ago
All this talk of money and 'the Second Revolution' is interesting.

Darryle Robert Schoon, author of “How to Survive the Crisis and Prosper in the Process” said…

“The American Revolution has run its course. Unless resuscitated and given new life, the American dream and the dreams of America’s founding fathers will soon be only a memory.”

He tells how what happened in 1776 has been subverted by the passage of time and the inconsistency of later generations. The very policies we revolted against are again being imposed. Tyranny and government excesses are again upon America, but this time it is by America’s own hand.

I am trying to keep religion and conspiracy out of this but just look at Adam and Eve. It was the first sin. Greed. They wanted more than they had, even though what they had was good. But then take a look at some North American Indian cultures...they worked to prepare for up to 8 generations ahead of themselves.

It’s said that every year 20% of the people of the world consume 80% of the resources and the other 80% are left with 20% to get by on…and nobody’s saving much for our great grand children.
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