Big Brother Obama

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SweetiePieposted 15 years ago
I know people that are still paying off a debt from ER visits years ago. People without jobs or part-time jobs cannot simply snap their fingers and pay for comprehensive health care.
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  nicompposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So what? They also have car payments for years. They have apartment payments for years. Isn't their health more important?
  
  This attitude of entitlement is killing us.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Exaggeration is king I see. Paying a large medical bill for breaking your arm is not like paying for a car. People need adequate health care to meet their needs. If your arm is broken and not set properly your mobility will be limited, but if your car breaks down you can always walk or take the bus.
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  nicompposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Exaggeration is the unsubstantiated belief that we can confiscate a little more money from "the rich" and magically pay for universal free health care. Tragically many people are willing to try it because they don't think it will cost them.
  
  Exaggeration is the urban myth that a government that can't get water bottles to hurricane victims or properly build levies can run 17% of the economy.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Interestingly Katrina was mismanaged under Bush, but I know I am not supposed to talk about him. FEMA was in trouble financially back in 2003, and those of us who went through the Southern California fires already knew this.
  
  Nationalized health care works just fine in many countries that do not have this obsession with people "stealing" their money. We pay taxes now, so it is not as if you keep every penny anyway. The US still ranks 37th in the world when it comes to health care, so there is something we are not doing right. We can learn lessons from countries with higher rankings, and see what they have done differently.
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  nicompposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Wrong wrong wrong. It's bankrupting many countries and it's led to end-of-life rationing. If you want that, fine. I don't.
  
  We have the best health care in the world, the delivery system needs a tweak. Please provide the reference for your statistic, 'cause I'll be happy to interpret it for you.
  
  If our system is so horrible, why does over 80 per cent of the population like their health care?
  
  http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/03/19/ … index.html
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I am not wrong, and I definitely know what I am talking about. The US is ranked 37th in the world, and that is the fact. People on Hubpages living in the UK, Canada, and Australia seem much happier with their health care than many Americans I have spoken to.
  
  http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
  
  The US and other countries are also experiencing financial crisis at the moment, so in and of itself health care is not bankrupting nations overseas.
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  nicompposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  My apologies, but I can't make heads or tails from your rankings. Here's the spreadsheet behind the rankings:
  http://www.photius.com/rankings/world_h … stems.html
  
  I'd appreciate your interpretation.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  This webpage is showing how health care is ranked by quality in the world. It is pretty simple to figure out really.
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  nicompposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'm happy it's simple for you, but I don't get it at all. It references 'goals' which are not explained at all and cause me to be suspicious of whether or not every country is graded on the same standards.
  
  Two columns under the heading "Responsiveness" are labeled "Level" and "distribution". I have no clue what that means.
  
  Please interpret for me.
  
  Under the column "Health expenditure per capita in international dollars", the US has the number "1". Is that good or bad? Switzerland is "2" and Afghanistan is 184.
  
  What does that mean?
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  Earthscribeposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Oh good, then you can shed some light on this below:
  
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I have been explaining my stance all day. Oh well, I know where I stand on the matter, and I know where you stand too. We do not agree on health care reform, that is the point. The World Health Organization study was very comprehensive, and in the other study nicomp stated that a Taiwnese hospital was Chinese. Sorry, but just because I do not agree with you does not mean I am mislead.
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  Earthscribeposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not asking you to explain your stance.
  
  I have not said any of the things you accuse me above -- I merely asked you to qulaify your statememt that the chart is easy to interpret -- because I don't understand the data and apparently you do, so you have simply evaded the point and said "we don't agree". Unless you can substantiate your claim by explaining this:
  
  "Under the column "Health expenditure per capita in international dollars", the US has the number "1". Is that good or bad? Switzerland is "2" and Afghanistan is 184.
  Two columns under the heading "Responsiveness" are labeled "Level" and "distribution". I have no clue what that means."
  
  --then you've only put off the discussion.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  US is good with responsiveness, but other factors lower our ranking. You can have responsive health care, but if it is too expensive for most people then it is causing an economic crisis. I have not put off discussion, simply pointed out what I have been doing. People love to say that to throw someone off, but I do not fall for it. Oh well, you can have your thread. I have been on here way too long today anyway lol.
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  Earthscribeposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thank for your erudite and poignant explanation of the chart's esoterics...
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  nicompposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  We tried!
  
  Figures lie and liars figure. I politely asked her for clarification and she couldn't provide any. People with two brain cells to rub together are suspicious of a ranking that can't be substantiated. Anyone can put up a web site. Any international organization can put up a web site. If you can't interpret it, don't use it to support your argument.
  
  I'll attempt to interpret the data; someone in WHO created a set of goals, which SweetiePie used to support her points, but can't explain. The WHO then ranked countries by their ability to reach those goals. For all I know, the goals may have been related to how close you can park to the outpatient clinic or whether you can smoke in the operating room. No clue.
  
  And if the goals for Afghanistan were the same as the goals for The United States .... whoa.
  
  PS> Mea maxima culpa for misrepresenting the Taiwanese flag on a *completely* different web site in a *completely* separate thread.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Or more likely, how socialist the health care system is.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Actually I have supported my points quite well thank you. Put downs are never cool, but my brain cells are intact. Your response is nationalized health care is too expensive, or takes from the rich, but yet you have provided no better solutions.
  
  Not sure how polite it is to disparage anyone and everyone that realizes the US does rank lower in health care than the UK and many other industrialized nations, and your response is people should not have cell phones so they can afford their emergency room treatment. Okay, I suppose only rich people should enjoy life, and everyone who is poor should have a lower quality of life. Great!
  
  P.S. You misnamed the Taiwanese hospital on this thread, not the other.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Technically, he wasn't wrong.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  People may speak Chinese in Taiwan, but they prefer to be called by their nationality, which is Taiwanese. A hospital in Taiwan is Taiwanese, not Chinese. Just as in the US we are called Americans, but our language is not American.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Do you know what the official name of Taiwan is?
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  nicompposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  See!!! That damn Commie is hidin' in a Joshua tree
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So now you've said "I'm smart!" and "I won't fall for it!" at least half a dozen times so far on this thread alone...
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Taiwan = ROC
  
  The Taiwanese consider themselves Chinese (and of course China agrees).
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  http://hospitals.webometrics.info/top1000.asp
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  nicompposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  How do you rank a Chinese hospital?
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Some of those hospitals on the list were Taiwanese, not Chinese.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I think the main page there had an explanation of how the data was compiled, but I reckon is was much in the same manner as all the others.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It was on this particular thread.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Not everyone. People 'need' lots of things. If you believe that the government should take from others to provide a teat for the rest perhaps a different country would be more to your liking.
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Colebabieposted 15 years ago
The point is that a difference right now between having good, flexible, complete medical care and not is $$. Does it have to be that way?
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes it does.
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Ron Montgomeryposted 15 years ago
It is incredibly unrealistic to think that families who can barely keep themselves fed and sheltered can possibly set aside funds for medical emergencies. I'm far from being a "big government solutions" guy, but this is definitely a broken system. Government has played a part in creating this mess and will certainly have a role in cleaning it up.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So what do we need to do to increase the supply of medical care? More supply = lower prices. Of course that means that doctors will be paid less because there will be more of them, but what is more important, keeping doctor's wages high or lowering the cost of medical care? Why let drug companies keep a monopoly on newly created drugs. If people find they help for a certain disease, they'll ask their doctors about it and be put on it. The only thing a monopoly does is make more money for the drug companies than would otherwise be the case. Increasing the number of doctors and eliminating drug company privileges would go a long way to making healthcare more affordable in this country. Yet nobody is suggesting it.
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Do you mean we should eliminate or reduce the timeline for drug patent rights?
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ideally, we'd eliminate those and eliminate quotas on the numbers of doctors a state licenses per year here in the States. Then the supply of healthcare would increase to meet the demand. That is, after all, what we're arguing about isn't it? Getting enough of a supply of healthcare to meet the demand?
  
  @Colebabie. When you talk about anything tax funded, you're talking about taking from one group of people: i.e. the rich and giving to another, i.e. the poor. The problem with that is our economic health is tied to the wealthy being able to invest their money in new enterprises. Less money for that means less new businesses and less jobs. Everyone suffers in that scenario.
  
  Plus I've worked with people in government and let me tell you they're not always the brightest crayon in the box. Anytime you let politics into the equation, politics drives the actions, not common sense. I'd rather have a capitalist who has to worry about customer satisfaction and controlling costs at the helm rather than some unaccountable bureaucrat running things. At least if the capitalist screws up, he'll soon find himself out of a job. The bureaucrat will still be in that job or shuffled off to push papers around. Hardly a wise use of scarce resources.
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Ron Montgomeryposted 15 years ago
If you eliminate drug patents, why would a drug company do the R&D to develop new drugs? Where is the financial incentive?
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Why does any company do R&D? Profit. That's how our standard of living increases and how we afford more things. We'd see fewer drug companies that's for sure, but those that remained would be the ones who were best able to develop new treatments at the lowest cost. The incentive would be, as usual, profit. The difference would be that companies could no longer rest on their laurels, once they made one breakthrough, they'd have to work on another. Do you think the demand for drugs is going to disappear, just because the drug companies no longer have a monopoly?
  
  Right now we have a lot of drug companies we don't really need. Monopolies are just another form of welfare and everyone pays when you have a situation like that. Not to mention you open government up to corruption and soon enough government starts working for drug companies rather than the people that put them in office.
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  nicompposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  We have precisely the number of drug companies we really need. The free market sets the number. If they can turn a profit, they get to stay in business.
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The necessary profit to recoup the R&D dollars would not exist without the patents, that's why they exist. Analysing and copying drugs is a piece of cake. Without a patent there is zero incentive to be first in the market with any new drug. You make just as much with your generic as the company that develops it at great expense.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes it would. When you subsidize a thing, you allow costs to grow all out of proportion. After all what incentive do you have to control costs if you are assured a certain profit. This lack of cost awareness trickles down the production chain. The companies that make the instruments the drug companies need to do testing, for example, are assured a certain profit so what incentive do they have to control costs. The lack of cost control has a greater impact than just in drug companies or those who support the drug companies. Over time, the entire US economy becomes more and more expensive and less and less competitive. That, in a nutshell, is why we've lost our manufacturing base over the last few decades.
  
  What would happen is that companies would be forced to look at low costs ways to develop new drugs. Those companies that are successful in doing that would survive and prosper. Those that did not would go bankrupt. Why would you want to support a company that wastes time, money and talent on things that are too expensive or that people don't want?
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SweetiePieposted 15 years ago
Americans are not as satisfied with health care as some believe:

http://www.webmd.com/healthy-aging/news … ils-others
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SweetiePieposted 15 years ago
Why even the need to ask this question? I am sorry TK I am sure she is not offended, but I am not sure what you are trying to imply.
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SweetiePieposted 15 years ago
These are top ranked hospitals, not overall quality of health care in each country. The World Health Organization has noted that overall the US ranks 37th in the world, which means we have some really good hospitals, and some that are severely understaffed and unresourced.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Could that be due to the artificial shortage of doctors in this country?
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  Colebabieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What is "artificial" about it? There is a shortage. Now the reasons behind the shortage may vary. But there is in fact a shortage.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It's artificial because medical schools limit the number of slots they allocate to medical students each year. More doctors would be minted every year if that practice would end.
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  Colebabieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Would you prefer an overcrowded medical school with less patient contact and professor interaction?
  My school fits 30 students. I've sat in the classes. As much as I wish it was easier for some of my friends to get in. I understand why it is that way. I've also sat in at UF. And they're ranked way up there. So you can't have both lots of students and amazing education. They just don't have the professors for it.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  If conditions ever got that bad, which they wouldn't unless of some external factor, we'd see more medical schools open up and take on the excess students. Supply will always rise to meet demand. Did you know we haven't had a new medical school open up to train doctors in over a century?
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  Colebabieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Huh?? Where do you live that there is no new medical school?
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You were talking about medical schools not being able to absorb a large influx of students. If that ever happened, you'd see new medical schools open up to take the extra number of students. In this case the supply of medical schools would increase to meet the demand of medical students.
  
  You think the shortage of doctors is not artificial. Don't you think it strange that we haven't seen a new medical school open in this country for over a century? One of the reasons you haven't seen that is because the medical schools limit their supply of slots so that the number of doctors in this country is limited. Since they know for sure how many people they'll allow to become doctors each year, there is no need for new medical schools. It's just another piece of evidence that the supply of doctors is artificially restricted. Because doctors are scarce, they can charge more than would otherwise be the case.
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  Colebabieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What makes you think there aren't new medical schools?
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  Colebabieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Colebabie wrote:
  ledefensetech wrote:
  
  What makes you think there aren't new medical schools? Two opened last year in my state alone.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ooops. My info was bad. Until recently we haven't had a new medical school in 20 years.
  
  http://amsageriatrics.proboards.com/ind … amp;page=1
  
  One thing that did surprise me is that foreign medical schools are starting to open branches in the US. You will note, I hope, that at the top of the post I reference that doctors thought they'd face a glut of doctors if they increased the number of medical schools. Turns out they don't know as much about economics as they think they do.
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  Colebabieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes. One of my friends went to medical school in St. Kitts and is now doing her residency in Chicago. Another will be attending Ross University in the Caribbean. And another in Cayman Islands. Often these schools are attending by students who were unable to get into a US school, or like my friend in St. Kitts her brother went there and she just loved it. Whatever the case, they are still producing quality physicians in the US. So I don't see anything bad there. And yes, while some experts believed the number of healthcare professionals was satisfactory 10 years ago, they were proved wrong today. And as your source states the amount of geriatric and family medicine physicians are at a great need.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  But you miss my point. There should be no need for anyone in the US to go abroad to study unless they want to go to a particular school. They shouldn't have to go to a foreign school just because there aren't any spots open in the US. The only way such a thing can happen is if someone is keeping the market from functioning properly. Supply always rises to meet demand. That should be the first law of economics.
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  Colebabieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You can't just snap your fingers and open a med-school. Should there be more in the US? Of course. But you need the professors, the hospitals, the facility, the money, etc. way before you get the students.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You're right, of course, but in a properly functioning market there would be indicators that new schools needed to be opened based on an increase in demand. Why do you think I'm considering a degree as a Physicians Assistant? The demand is rising and they'll be on the forefront of meeting that demand. The sooner you get in the game the more income you will make. As the current demand is met, salaries will shrink and only those who can still make a profit or those who see it as a calling will remain. Outpacing new medical schools is the development of new PA programs. The demand is there for the PA's and the schools are responding by creating new degree programs. That's how a freely functioning market works. It doesn't take oversight, it doesn't take some self-appointed bureaucracy, a free market is self-regulating.
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  Colebabieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, if the pieces are available. But they aren't right now. Maybe that will change. But since there hasn't been a strong increase in the opening of medical schools, it just shows that while there is the demand, the task of meeting that demand is difficult.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Most of the difficulty can be placed at the feet of the AMA. They've resisted any expansion of medical services since their inception.
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  Colebabieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  They have standards. As they should.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Sure but their standards protect the doctors salaries first not their patients.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  http://worldranking.blogspot.com/2009/0 … rmacy.html
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  Colebabieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, our doctor's are amazing. But the overall access to them is not. UF is 42. Nice
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maven101posted 15 years ago
Doctors are people too...I have found many are relocating to smaller communities and away from big cities...I live in northern Arizona, small towns with small populations ( 12,000 and less )...We have probably the finest resident medical staff for everything from heart surgery to spinal repair as anywhere in the country...They move here because we have less crime, provide a superior educational system, and have a stable population level...

Most are GP's interested in improving the health and well being of their patients...more personal contact and connectivity...more involved in the community like Walk for Life, and free seminars on diet and life style opportunities... I have a dentist that allows patients to pay what they can, when they can...The system may be broke, but it works just fine in Small Town USA...I wonder why that is...Larry
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The economics of small towns make it essential that doctors treat their patients like customers, rather than assembly line fashion like you see in larger populations.
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tksenseiposted 15 years ago
More than half of all medical patents in the world each year are filed in the US.
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fortunerepposted 15 years ago
In my little nutshell, Obama is someone you will only learn of when it is too late. He is trying and will succeed to run the whole globe. All you have to do is watch and listen and look yourself. Pay attention to whatis going on. It is rumored that he is trying to de-populate the society because economically we in the us are over populated. He wants to keep everyone else out. He wants it to be his nation and why Americans have stood back and wacth thinking he is going to change to the world is crazier than I. Just look at my Swine Flu reports, look at the map, if you are good at math and know statisics and econmonics you will see that people are dying every day from a possible man made virus. Yet, DC has very very little cases. His universal Healthcare plan is designed for the govenerment to make money, not to provide care to all. If we make it through 4 years without major crisis over and over it will only be becuase he failed. Don't be fooled, and this is just not an opinion, do the research, do the math. and for God's sake don't drink the Kool-aid. and DO NOT take a vaccinne for the flu. It was given to soldiers and although the number is hazy, their experiment caused deaths of our american soldiers fighting for our country. They say it is going to get worse, ofcouse it is, the vaccine is a placebo or the flu itself and they can't find the source becuase it was man made.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Swine flu kills the elderly, children and people who have underlying health conditions, just like the regular flu. Now if it mutates and begins causing a cytokine storm in its victims, you'll start to see healthy people die. There's no way this can be a man made virus, we're at the "ding go the fries" stage in genetic manipulation.
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  fortunerepposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  well then ignore me, I hve contacts in DC, not just peope who live there but well that all i can say about that, don't pay attention you will see for yourself, then you will believe me. Sorry posted this under the wrong subject. I also work at a med school, and thier numbers are way way down.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Every group has their own propaganda and kool-aid so to speak. With all respect you are welcome not to like Obama, but his plans to depopulate the world is one of the most bizarre conspiracy theories out there. There are a lot of these actually ranging from the birth certificate to depopulation. I would not fall for that propaganda.
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  fortunerepposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  you already have
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It is one thing to say you do not like Obama for his policies, but these conspiracy theories are just plain wrong. As far as I am concerned you have fallen for you own propaganda too . However, in a few years people can laugh about the birth certificate and depopulation theories, and I know they will.
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tksenseiposted 15 years ago
So our doctors, hospitals, and medical innovation is the best in the world. Maybe we need to make improvements in access without destroying all those positives.
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  Colebabieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed.
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Colebabieposted 15 years ago
<---Raises hand
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Um, yes, you in the back
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  Colebabieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Mr. tksensei... is it... umm... The Republic of China?
  
  (but they do see themselves as a completely independent nation do they not?)
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well done! The independent country thing is a bit of a complicated subject though.
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  Colebabieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes it is. But it is my understanding that the majority want to be seen as an independent nation and even want the official name changed.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Er, even that is complicated. Most people understand the relationship with the PRC is delicate and crucial on several levels. And except for people who trace their ancestry to the indigenous people of the island everyone identifies themselves as 'Chinese' as an ethnic, racial, cultural, and historical matter.
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  Colebabieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Really? Didn't know that. I thought they were pretty independent and didn't associate with anything "china" very much. But I understand.
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  Milla Mahnoposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, I know one "Taiwanese" girl, and this is pretty much what she says. They want to be together, just don't want to be under commies.
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tksenseiposted 15 years ago
And who would?
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  Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Americans do
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Not yet
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  Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Umm, aren't we hanging out on the same forum? Look around
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yup, filled with Commies. Good thing most of us are packin' heat so we can deal with the red menace.
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tksenseiposted 15 years ago
Have you spotted some Commies 'round these parts?
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  Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I did not say the forum is full of commies, while there are a few probably, like Coldwarbaby. But everybody who supports current administration supports commies.
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SweetiePieposted 15 years ago
Well I am certainly not a Communist, although I am sure some of you think that lol. The UK, Canada, France, and many other countries have socialized health care, so do you really believe these countries are communistic? Social support systems do not make a country Communist .
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  Good morning Sweetie Pie.
  Don't you know that Communists are very sneaky? They could be hiding anywhere, even in your breakfast!!
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SweetiePieposted 15 years ago
The idea of nationalized health care has been around since Truman, so it is hardly full on raging Communism. Well I think anyone looking for Communists in America should be looking for UFO's in the sky. We have a group that goes to Joshua Tree and actually has stake outs for those. A country that takes care of their people is humanistic, not Communistic. Obama is not a Communist, just to clear that up. He is a Democrat lol.

Obama is actually an admirable person that has overcome a lot in his life and achieved the American dream. He is not the boogy man people make him out to be. Some just want a villain. For some Bush was the villain and for others Obama is. Neither of them are villains, you either like their policies or you do not.
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  They camp out in Joshua Tree looking for commies?
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Commies grow on trees?
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No, they hide in them. Joshua trees grow in thick groves and can reach heights of over 1,000 feet making them great places to hide. By coincidence, they were named after Joshua Socialyski, a famous Communist agitator from the 1920's.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  With the UFOs?
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Tom Cornettposted 15 years ago
Boy George is a commie..."commie, commie, commie chameleon"
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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SweetiePieposted 15 years ago
Actually Boy George sang that song about the drummer he was having an affair with. His lover hid his true feelings in front of others, and that is what the song is about. Boy George said so himself.
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  Tom Cornettposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  There goes my conspiracy theory!
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The drummer says Boy George is making it up, but the band mates said they had really big fights all the time. So we could either believe Boy George or the drummer. I guess you can decide.
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  Tom Cornettposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I guess he won't be Obama's Fashion Czar then?
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SweetiePieposted 15 years ago
Okay some people back in the 70's used to go out to Joshua Tree and look for UFO's. Some still do it today, but it was really popular back in the day lol. Joshua Tree National Monument is very beautiful by the way, if you have never been.

The paranoia over Communists is similar to looking for UFO's in the sky. Some people are Communist, but they usually belong to the Communist party.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Except that we know that Communists actually exist.
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  jiberishposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Not only do Communist exist, they are living in the White House.
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No!!!!!!!!!!!!1They're hiding in the thick forests of 1,000 ft Joshua trees. Try to keep up.
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  jiberishposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry. The UFO that landed in my back yard, blinded me for a minute.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Blinded you with science?
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That is a far fetched assertion. I guess you did not even read my post about how the hard core liberals and real Communists consider Obama to be way too moderate. People that have real Communistic or Socialistic aspirations in the US vote for the own candidates of their parties. Yes there are actually small US parties that nominate their own candidates for president, but you usually do not hear about them because we are primarily a two party system in this country.
  
  Honestly accusing anyone of being a Communist is what McCarthyism was about, and I think people should have more respect for their fellow Americans. You do not have to like everyone, but at least do some research and find out who the real Communists are in the US. I do not support Communism personally, but under our Constitution the Communist party is allowed to function and operate like any other party. Many loath the Communist party, but they will never be large enough or solid enough to pose a real threat for the White House. The US remains primarily a two party system with Democrats and Republicans vying over the White House, and with the other parties actually casting their votes on candidates that will probably never be voted into office. In 1992 Ross Perot was the last Independent candidate that had a change at the presidential race, but his withdrawal has helped to confirm that the majority of voting Americans are more comfortable with the two party system.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  And he was mostly right.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  If you think McCarthy was right then you really need to read up on his term in office. He destroyed the careers of many people that posed no real threat to the US government. Ironically McCarthyism started the trend of Americans being much more critical of their politicians.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Records from the Soviet Union only recently released point to most of the most high-profile individuals he accused of being Communists having actually been just what he suspected.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The majority either participated in the arts that were not sanctioned by his narrow world view or participated in political parties that went against his paranoid ideology. By the way he even accused Lucille Ball of being a red because her dad had been a member of a socialistic party in 1912, which was actually before the Russian revolution. Neither of them were Communists. This is an example of how far fetched her antics really were. McCarthyism is nothing to be proud of.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Or because in 1936 she registered to vote as a member of the Communist Party.
  
  Everyone remembers what some slacker former hippy History teacher told them ages ago, and few bother to study history.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I study history and know my facts, and just did not happen to know Lucy registered for the Communist party in 1936. You do know under the US Constitution people are allowed to do that, right? I have a degree in the subject by the way. Do you know the two official languages of Pitcairn Island? Do you know the main food crop of the Serrano Indians. I am like a walking encyclopedia when it comes to facts, with a very good memory.
  
  Hippies are not such bad people as you make them out to be and many are not slackers. Some very successful business people are hippies.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  LOL! You don't see a teeny-weeny contradiction there?
  
  LOL!!! Is this some kind of comedy act?
  
  Oh, clearly.
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SweetiePieposted 15 years ago
Yes Communists do exist, but you would be surprised how moderate and bland actual liberals consider Obama. The real left wing liberals are mad that Obama has not been more aggressive on nationalized health care, banning assault weapons, or legalizing marijuana. Obama has actually toned down much of his agenda and gone a much more moderate path. Compromise is an art in Washington, but he is simply not the raging Communist some people believe. Besides most people have grown tired of hard core Communism, and membership in the actually Communist party is not all that high.

Here is an article by a man that does not exactly support universal health care, but he points out some of the hypocrisy on the side of a few Republicans going up against it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co … id=topnews
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That's a great point. Obama has certainly not taken a far left stance on any significant issue.
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SweetiePieposted 15 years ago
I actually have done some research and have listened to what both sides are saying about Obama. Hard cord liberals like him better than Bush, but they are not exactly supporting him either. Bush had a lot of unfounded hatred too, but to me if I do not like a politician it is because of their policies, and that is all it should be. Back during the Clinton administration people on our campus talked about how there was a list of people around him that mysteriously died. That was the controversy of that day, and the birth certificate and depopulation theories are the rumors people love to spread today.
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Plus Communism.
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Mishaposted 15 years ago
The cornerstone of communism is state ownership of means of production, and with bailouts and such Obama did a good job in seizing the opportunity to acquire a big chunk of countrie's means of production. State owned healthcare is the next opportunity.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The bailouts started with Bush and the banks. European countries have also had similar bailouts, and jobs would have been lost without these. Obama simply continued what Bush was doing, so if you think he is a Communist by that narrow definition, so is Bush. By the way the UK is not a Communist country and they have nationalized health care. Countries cannot fit in our neat little boxes just because we want them too.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  And jobs were lost with them.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Quite a few jobs were saved as well.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  LOL! That is the funniest 'math' of this administration so far! Jobs "saved"! Some fancy accounting there.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Your math is not so accurate either. All you said is jobs were lost as well. Please make a detailed chart for us along with a hub on this subject since you love statistics so.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  When did I say I loved statistics? Please try to be more accurate in your comments.
  
  Now then, until just today unemployment has only gone UP since all these 'stimuli' were passed.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Our city was so far in debt they were going to shut down the library several days a week, cut the police force, and the senior center. Stimulus money and the city council standing up for the community has helped to keep a few things functioning.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks for the heart warming anecdote, but that completely ignores what I just said.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The city is a major employer in our community, so that is hardly a heart warming antidote. The stimulus package is doing some good with road repair and job retention in certain sectors. Every job kept is one less family that is on the brink of poverty. Those are simply the facts.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That's part of the problem right there, but the fact that you are trying to reduce the discussion to your town is exactly what makes it an anecdote.
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  nicompposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You are missing two salient points:
  
  1. Your stimulus money was confiscated from another city, so their police force, library and senior center suffered. There's no way around that. The federal government is not a profit center; all they can do is redistribute wealth. If you think your city is more important than other cities, then keep doing what you're doing.
  
  I am sorry if your city is hurting, however I don't think you should be pleased that some other city suffers so you don't have to.
  
  2. The federal government is in no way shape or form mandated to fund your library, police force, and senior center. It's not what they are chartered to do. Even if they are swimming in cash, they are not in the business of maintaining city services. Those facilities are the responsibility of your city and in some cases your state.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, you have no data or statistics to back up your assertions. State, county, and city governments all across the country are suffering in this economy, and many have been given stimulus funds. I do not think my city is the only important one, so it is odd you got that out of my post. I only used it as an example of how stimulus funds are being put to good use in many sectors, but I have noticed people miscontrue many a thing on these forums lol. Keeping people employed in cities and counties across the nation is of vital importance especially since the police force portects communities, libraries support education at all levels, and senior centers provide activities for the elderly people in our communities. Those were just a few examples I shared, but often people miss the forest for the trees. Job retention is also a plus side to stimulus funds because believe it or not there is a ripple effect with each job lost.
  
  Also, a police force is a vital component to any city, and without them crime escalates and spreads. Political ideology can be blinding when it comes to the reality of the economic suffering happening across this country.
  
  Over the last hundred years the Federal government has stepped in to help people on the local level. What do you think FEMA is for? Republicans tend to have this belief that states right are being infringed upon any time the federal government intervenes, but it has been over a hundred years since the Republicans have practiced what they preached. Republican administrations big government as any of the Democratic administrations, but the former is under the allusion their parties original principals have remained intact.
  
  Here are a few articles about how stimulus funds are being dispersed to many counties and cities through out the country:
  
  http://www.bizjournals.com/sanantonio/s … ily39.html
  
  http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2009/0 … benef.html
  
  http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/news/ci_13016661
  
  http://www.sbsun.com/news/ci_12932154
  
  http://www.pe.com/business/local/storie … fd7da.html
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  Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, absolutely, Bush was doing the same job of preparing the country to state ownership. And McCain would have continued it no less then Obama. However, in this case I would have been talking about fascism, not communism.
  
  And yes, European countries run fast towards communism IMO.
  
  On a side note, I do notice with pleasure that you became much more fun to converse with, congratulations on your good job of changing yourself.
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  IntimatEvolutionposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, but like you said, "State"; not Federal. There is a difference here in America. A big difference. But I do understand what you are saying. But this healthcare is beyond my knowledge and capabilities of understanding. Seriously though, are ANY of us TRULY qualified to fix the system? Obama was voted in by a landslide, with his healthcare plans voiced openly to the public. So the one thing I can say about this President, is that I appreciate him looking into how successful and conservative clinics and hospital are being run. I like the fact that Obama is having open forums, gathering Doctors around him- to voice their opinions and wise direction on the matter; instead of just throwing this to the greedy dragon's den we call congress. This I do appreciate.
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  Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think there is a big difference. Formally USSR was a federation, too.
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  IntimatEvolutionposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  A Federation of forced countries, conquered under a dictatorship. Is that right?
  
  If you need reference points to the difference between the two, just look into the history books of FEMA, Federal Assistance, Federal Aid, Federal Taxes, Federal Grants for state run programs, etc........ just to name a few. There is a BIG difference. Though, I'm sure to non-American citizens it appears differently. Are you a US citizen? I think I read in one of your posts that your wife is maybe? But you are not? Is that correct? Anyhow- comparing us to the USSR, is a little far fetch. Or, that is my opinion.
  
  Fellow American Hubbers, are we just like that of the Eastern block or I mean Federation?
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  Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I will leave American history to LDT or TMG, if they would chime in. Just would remind you about civil war, wasn't it sort of north conquering south?
  
  As for the USSR, you seem to have a few misconceptions about it. Eastern block was way bigger then USSR, and USSR territory was mostly conquered during monarchy period, starting hundreds of years before communists. In fact it was even smaller, some territories as Poland or Finland were lost during revolution.
  
  And no, I am not American citizen, neither my wife is. But we've been living here for about 10 years already.
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  IntimatEvolutionposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  North CONQUERING the South? My, my yeah.... leaving your American history to whomever might be a good idea. Like I'll leave the Russian history to yourself. You know what I mean? Thanks for the lesson, I really had no idea. (Note, the question marks.) I graduated in 1989, when the Berlin Wall fell. Those faces, sure looked happy to see the free world.
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SweetiePieposted 15 years ago
Joshua Trees are smaller than that tree, and very poky. I need to find a picture. They are called Joshua Trees because the Mormon migrants to California thought they looked like Joshua raising his hand to the heavens.
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SweetiePieposted 15 years ago
Obama may not be perfect, but he actually seems more open to what people have to say. In interviews Bush said he always knew best. At least the latter is trying to work with the people, and even if you do not like him you can respect him for that.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  How so? This administration has been as partisan, stubborn, and arrogant as any other (or all the others if you like).
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Obama and Clinton were more bipartisan than Bush Jr. ever was. Also, the bipartisan thing goes both ways, so the member of Congress can often slow down the process.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Nope.
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  IntimatEvolutionposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed! It goes back to the whole timeline thing, and unrealistic expectations. I'm curious as to why so many American citizens, and citizens of the world don't recognize that Congress truly has the power to get things done. And without them working, as they should- NOTHING can get passed.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  They are more interested in passing Constitutional amendments to give themselves raises. Congress is a big time waster, and it always will be.
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SweetiePieposted 15 years ago
Well you do know wiretapping began back in the eighties, it just was more widespread under the Patriot Act. Bush also trampled on the Constitution, and many other presidents. Obama is not as bad as people make him out to be, and yes I am saying it out loud.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Why is it note worthy that you are saying it out loud?
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Because I can phrase things anyway I like. You can be a little snippy at times. Go drink some coffee or something .
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Um, ok. Did anyone tell you that you couldn't? (why do I get the feeling you are soon going to defend your 'dignity' and tell us how smart you are again?)
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You do know that you are being a little too incessant, right? If you do not like my responses to you, just ignore me.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No thank you.
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IntimatEvolutionposted 15 years ago
Oh and one more thing, WE ALL have to work around Congress's schedule. It's not like they are working for us 365 days a year anymore. I think they worked something like 180 days last year, and the year before. And of course they took all major holidays, and Federal holidays off as well. So that number is actually lower than that. I'd like to see us working harder to keep our Congressmen on a better timeline. So who ever is in office, could get things done in a timely manner. I wish I made over $200,000 a year, and only worked about five months out of the year.

And oh, not pay taxes like everyone else has too.... Congress is out of control.
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SweetiePieposted 15 years ago
Okay thanks I think lol .
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  Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  LOL Yes, it was a compliment
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I know, I was being silly .
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  Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  LOL
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tksenseiposted 15 years ago
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/08 … itics-say/
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tksenseiposted 15 years ago
And now reports of intimidation to keep protesters out of these 'town hall meetings' so busloads of union workers (SEIU) and plants could fill the seats so Senators and Reps won't have to hear from citizens who don't support this unhealth plan being pushed. A program to "drown out opposition" (from the SEIU website).

Just saw a video of some guy getting a beating by a bunch of thick-necked fellas wearing SEIU t-shirts outside the front door of a 'townhall' meeting site in Missouri while a bunch more a ushered into the hall via a side door.

Wow, and I thought the Republicans blew it when they had majorities...
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  jiberishposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  But will the Messiah listen?
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Leta Sposted 15 years ago
OMG. Yeah, it figures.

I'm watching the 'protesters' on TV just screaming raw obliterate phrases at these town hall meetings....no "feedom of speech," just emoting and screaming. The wingnuts have been stirred up with a lot of hate mongering propaganda and are showing their true colors with the blessings and incitement of Limbaugh and Glen Beck.

I have to say it--we need to say what it is in an open democracy. They are out there, a bit crazy--I do fear for the country. The 'birther' thing, the 'government is going to control you through your computer via this bill' thing, the obfuscated information on the health care reform, urging violence--it is all polarizing and a bit insane.

A few things tonight have convinced me to get behind a group like MoveOn.org, which is trying to combat this. These right wing extremists are dangerous, I believe.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That darn freedom of speech is so troublesome when exercised by those you disagree with.
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  Leta Sposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Screaming so that there can be no discussion and inciting violence is NOT the political freedom of freedom of speech.
  
  I support your right to say that McCarthyism was right on target, but I will fight that kind of thinking at every point of the way. I believe it, ie, to be insane.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Funny how it becomes "screaming" when the message is one you disagree with, and violence is "incited" by whomever you decide regardless of who is on the recieving end of it.
  
  Principles can be such malleable things...
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  Leta Sposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No. CNN is actually having some journalistic backbone and reporting what is really happening for once.
  
  People are screaming so much and creating violent situations that the town hall meetings are being closed down. They are literally screaming so much that nobody can have a discussion--nobody.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  But if you agreed with them they would be crying out for justice, be the victims of violence, and be demanding that the will of the people be heard...
  
  Always the same old same old...
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  Leta Sposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  If I was agreeing with them, of course I would be protesting in long and eloquent paragraphs...speeches. That is the point. And I would not be inciting violence. That is also the point.
  
  And the bottom of this 'movement' is not the truth. It is intellectual dishonesty promulgated by certain money-oriented interests--and this has played on some people's most base fears. This is my belief.
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SweetiePieposted 15 years ago
I echo your sentiments Lita. As you can see several people have already jumped to the conclusion that Obama is a Communist, and that McCarthy is a national hero. Interestingly even Eisenhower and his Republicans colleagues considered him to be an blithering paranoid towards the end of his term in office. I will definitely check out the website you posted.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Who said either of those things?
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It always surprises me that some people do not bother with the truth, just their prejudices. Putting people in categories like McCarthy did is the worst form of political shorthand. It does not teach or educate anyone about the political system.
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SweetiePieposted 15 years ago
It looks McCarthy has somewhat of a cult following posthumously lol.
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  Leta Sposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah. Wow, is all I can say. But it doesn't surprise me. Now I've heard that, ie, Palin thinks Obama has some sort of 'death panel' focusing on special needs children (?)
  
  It just gets weirder and weirder. And when are people with common sense going to stop 'giving equal time' to this kind of stuff in a politically correct way and start calling this what it is? Crazy. I'm calling it crazy.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It is crazy, I agree with that. I think maybe I am too politically correct sometimes.
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  Leta Sposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about us all, and our sense of 'fair play.' And the media...how it reports the news. Which I don't support--balanced reporting is NOT 4-5 different versions of spin.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well I feel that I have been too politically correct to be honest .
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I doubt that.
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SweetiePieposted 15 years ago
I know my history and no contradiction there . Of course you did not answer my questions and only tried to speak down to me lol. You never seem to appreciate the knowledge other people have. If they were parroting your ideology maybe, but that is about it. One thing I can say about a few others on here is they are very respectful towards me. As I said McCarthyism is considered The Salem Witch Trial of the day, and if you cannot see this I feel sorry for you.

Lucille Ball may have voted for the Communist party at one time, but she was no threat to the US government of any kind. McCarthy is considered a nut and a coward, and your trying to defend him pointless.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No, she did not.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You just said she did lol. What are the two official languages of Pitcairn Island by the way? What is the main crop of the Serrano Indians? You never did answer my questions.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No I did not. Reading, reading...
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I read very well thank you. I appreciate your compliment . That is the nicest thing you have said. Thank you so much .
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Come again? I'm sorry but there was no compliment there (and no insult either).
  
  ????????????????
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I take it as a true compliment. No need to explain .
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well, ok. Are you sure you don't need me to explain the difference between registering to vote and actually voting?
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I know the difference, but I was playing around with you here. You are so serious sometimes I just have to lighten the mood. Try it once and awhile. You never did answer my questions above.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You sure are lightening the mood
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  jiberishposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Please explain how your question is relevant to this discussion?
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Many posters ask off topic questions on this forum, so I can do so too. Basically I was just curious how much people know about various aspects of world history because on several occasions I have been told I am intellectually lazy or a lazy hippie. You did not say these things, but I just am trying to show a few posters here that there are many various ways of viewing the world and history, and their slant on it is not the only one.
  
  Implying that hippies are lazy or weird is also very biased and had nothing to do with the discussion.
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What is the main crop of serrano indians? Anything to do with serrano peppers?
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  Leta Sposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  How did the Sinagua Indians get their name? What is the "Meeting of Pai" in Havasuipai Falls every year? . Ron. This is close at hand.
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I wonder what the "Sinagua" actually called themselves.
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  Leta Sposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I actually used to know that...but its been a couple days since I visited one of those ruins around here. You live right by the university. You should know!
  
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Why, is the knowledge tranferred by osmosis due to my proximity to it?
  
  There is a sign posted by Montezuma's well that explains it, but I haven't been there in a couple of years. There are actual irrigation canals still flowing that were dug by these people centuries ago.
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  Leta Sposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'm just teasing you. Wondering when you will produce the cupcakes...
  
  Yeah--many of the canals they use around Phoenix were actually situated upon old canal systems of the Sinagua. They once were Empire.
  
  I did used to know their real name for themselves...but now it escapes me....but I believe they were the ancestors of the "Pai" peoples which means 'people.' The modern Yavapai, Havasupai, and a few other 'Pais' have this big family reunion once a year...
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  In honor of this discussion, I will produce some blue corn muffins sweetened with agave nectar
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tksenseiposted 15 years ago
That's how it always is with the 'other guys.'
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  Leta Sposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You know, that's quite post-modern of you, TK. Some sort of belief system that there are no universals and no truths out there. I would posit the opposite opinion. And actually, on the over-hackneyed conservative/liberal scale, with 'other guys,' et al, that's quite a conservative thought coming from me, you understand.
  
  You actually stand with the moral relativists...generally characterized (or portrayed) as liberals.
  
  Interesting, that.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No, just pointing out hypocrisy.
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  Leta Sposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  And how do you know that isn't a simplistic answer? Or that it absolutely has to be a simplistic answer, based on interests which actually are other than your best interests, or are actually your own?
  
  That's existential, I realize. And probably, posted here and in this company, perhaps more insane than crazy old people with medicare screaming at town hall meetings about socialized health care.
  
  I literally need a drink.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Seems like you need to stop drinking.
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  Leta Sposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I literally do not drink. Nothing for maybe 3 months...
  
  Glass of Merlot is tasting good, though, tonight.
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SweetiePieposted 15 years ago
Every group has hypocrisy, so there is nothing new there. What I do not understand is why you think McCarthyism was a good thing when it ruined the political, artistic and acting careers of many. The first amendment gives people the right of freedom of speech, and McCarthy went so far of the deep end he started accusing way too many people of plotting to overthrow the US government. Do you really see I Love Lucy as a threat to America? I love that show by the way!
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Did I say that? Pay attention.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I do pay attention and my detailed posts, hubs, and links show it. If you ever bother to read some of my hubs you would notice the amount of time and care I put into these. Yes you did imply that McCarthyism was a good thing because as of yet I have not heard you say one bad thing about it. Also, someone wanting a drink does not mean they drink too much. I think you owe Lita an apology.
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  Leta Sposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Don't bother, SP. I understand the..uh..parameters. lol
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You are right about that .
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  .................................................. hopeless...
  
  ...logic has been abandoned....
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tksenseiposted 15 years ago
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/electio … -strategy/
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SweetiePieposted 15 years ago
tksensei,

It is not logical for you to ask me questions, and never to answer mine. You have very little respect for the fact I am an educated woman.

Fox news is not very balanced. You might want to read this article:

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1067

As a history major I learned it is good to read widely and not be narrow in your research. I definitely consider myself a good historian, and find it amusing that several men have put me down. Of course they refuse to apologize, how typical lol. I am definitely beginning to see I have been singled out because a couple actually told other hubbers that did not agree with them that they were smart in their own ways, but I have been accused of being intellectually lazy, uninformed, and a hippie slacker. Interestingly it was all men that said those things to me, and but I never poke fun at them.

I know you do not like to hear me stand up for myself, so I decided to do it once again. It is illogical to use a computer to put someone down by the way. Would you question people in public the way you do on the forum?
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  .............here we go again...
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earnestshubposted 15 years ago
SweetiePie, I have noticed that the smart women like you and Lita get an amazing amount of unwarranted put downs, not-so-smart comments, and downright abuse.
I would like to point out that I hold both of you in high regard, which is very easy, as you both hold your own in any company intellectually, you are modest about your knowledge and always decent even when attacked.
I expect you will not get any apologies, so I wanted to let you know that you are more highly regarded generally than your antagonists.
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SweetiePieposted 15 years ago
I appreciate at that earnest . I think Lita definitely deserves an apology, but I will not hold my breath.
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world of the wiseposted 15 years ago
Money caused the economic crisis, bse of money some one was chased out of her home, another from her land and anothers car has been confiscated by creditors. If money wasnt herem all of would have been happy with batter trade
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tksenseiposted 15 years ago
According to the most recent Quinnipiac poll 52 percent disapprove of Obama's handling of the issue of health care while 39 percent approve.
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tksenseiposted 15 years ago
http://www.gallup.com/video/121940/No-G … eform.aspx

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1295.xml?ReleaseID=1357
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Earthscribeposted 15 years ago
Hi everyone,

I've been doing a lot of thinking about the Health bill, the actual role of government in private affairs, and how a forum conversation had been going...

I don't recall where it is now, but a few of us had been talking about the merits (or demerits!) or government run healthcare.

I made a statement that I didn't want my taxes being used to pay for mass-healthcare. However, upon thinking it over that statement needs modification.

As a libertarian, my personal political leaning is based on governemntal non-interference with the individual. This does not come from a paranoid abjuration, but from economy of energy; I think it is more effective to teach a person to fish rather than give them a fish.

Hence I think welfare programs are less effective than job training and subsidized education; low-income housing/section 8 is less effective than HUD programs or low-downpayment leasing.

Rather than paying out the nose through a monster of bureaucracy to care for the masses, energy might be better spent assisting others to raise their own quality of living -- health education, preventative medicine, and job training/education to raise salaries. This is a longer term focus -- healing the wound instead of putting a band aide on a bleeding gash.

Those in the Liberal pole of dichotomies may see me as conservative, since I do not wish to eek out monies blindly to bureaucracy in a wide-cast net of general healthcare. Those in the conservative pole see me as a bleeding heart liberal because I do have social concerns and I want to see mechanisms in place to assist my fellow-citizens. But the truth lies somewhere above these, as if liberal and conservative were the base of a triangle -- I stand in a floating point above these --- for they are bothe needed.

Which is more essential on a steering wheel -- the left grip or the right grip? Neither...both... it depends on the direction you are willing the vehicle to travel.

Mistake this not for relativism -- for the road of social development is an absolute! I just think that today's complexities demand a higher resolution of direction.

In the end, I would note that I think children should be covered completely for medical needs. They are not developed citizens able to shape their own destinies yet -- so I feel a social responsibility to contribute to their welfare, even if they aren't "mine"; all too often parents are neglectful or unable to provide.

However conservation kicks in when I think of adults. Once they are 18, I say sink or swim -- as far as free hand outs go. Train them? yes. Educate them? Assist them to begin, yes. But across the board care? Nay.

I could have written a hub, I know. But then I couldn't come here to share my thoughts ("Look guys, I just wrote a hub inspired by our conversation"... I don't think so.)
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not so sure I agree about the kids thing. Having kids is a personal decision from a couple and as part of that decision, they have to assess the costs of raising a kid, which includes their healthcare. When you make exceptions for groups, you start on a slippery slide that ends us up where we are today.
  
  For instance, why make the age 18? Why not 16 or 21? Isn't 18 just an arbitrary age picked so that we could send kids to fight a war when we still have enforced military slavery? Don't some people mature faster than others? What about people who never mature? You know, the 40-somethings that still act like they're still in high school?
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  Earthscribeposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Excellent points. I'll have to consider them.
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  Leta Sposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What ever you guys tend to talk about... I just want you to know that I always appreciate your well considered and intelligent ideas. We shouldn't fool ourselves! We need you smart conservative-leaning types in any ongoing political discourse. We need more of you.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you Lita. It's not so much conservatism as it is accepting individualism, liberty and working out how that works in society.
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Randy Godwinposted 15 years ago
Just wondering, did anyone see the list of congressmen receiving millions from pharmaceutical companies, dental associations, insurance companies, etc lobbying for the plan to not pass? Most are republicans of course, but surprise, surprise, the others are the "bluedog" democrats. The pharmaceutical industries by themselves are spending over a million dollars a day in lobbying efforts. It's all about the money people, the right and wrong of the plan is just a minor detail. The worst politicians money can buy.
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  Earthscribeposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Quite right Randy. That's what worries me about any public mechanism having the major leverage -- it can be bought by special interests. If we could just circumvent the political apparatus -- ie, keeping healthcare in the priovate sector -- we'd at least have a shot at quality control.
  
  My my, what would pharmo companies do if people learned to heal themselves? Pipedream, yes, but the implications stagger me. Much like what gaining zero-point energy would do to utility companies.
  
  The behemoths of business may eventually be withered away by starving them of capital, by instituting decentralized solutions. Now that's another pipedream... but shoot for the stars, you might get the mountain.
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  Randy Godwinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Big business seems in no danger of losing their hold on the government. How can we ordinary citizens compete with companies able to spend millions to have their way with congress? I can get my meds from Canada for less than my insurance will pay even though they are produced in this country. Pay insurance premiums and then pay co-pays too when visiting the doctor or buying drugs. Go to the hospital and pay $10.00 per aspirin. Blatant thievery! I do not think private companies should be able to lobby government officials. Just another name for a bribe.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That's why we the people need to enforce a strict interpretation of the Constitution. That alone would doom big business and get the government out of the economy entirely and bribing officials would not benefit businesses anymore.
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SweetiePieposted 15 years ago
Very good guess. Actually the main crop of the Serrano Indians is ground up acorn meal. The word Serrano comes from the Spanish meaning someone who lives in the higlands or mountains. The serrano pepper is from the Mexican state of Hidalgo, and the Serrano Indians are named so because they lived in the Morongo mountain range, which is here in Southern Californa. The Serrano Indians also had camps up in the San Bernardino Mountains during the fall time. During the fall they often came up to the mountains to grind their corn meal on the metatees.
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SweetiePieposted 15 years ago
Sinagua means without water in Spanish, but it would be interesting to know their actual name. I still do admire the Spanish names though, but I have always been fascinated with the language. Just need to learn to speak it better .
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The Spanish names are interesting, but they also can be seen as the remnants of their cultural destruction. Many of the gaps in our knowledge of indiginous peoples are there because the information was destroyed by the conquistadors and their priests.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  All Europeans that colonized the New World definitely destroyed the native cultures and traditions. However, the Spaniards were actually less destructive than the English, and even the
  French. Even though Catholic missionaries attempted to convert the native populations, many actually kept remnants of their traditional religions and mixed these with Catholicism.
  
  The modern day descendants of the Incas in Peru are a good example. The English on the other hand and later the Americans were more a about purposely eliminating entire populations, whereas Native Americans could be citizens and landholders under Spanish law. When it comes to English and later American settlers respect for native culture, there was little of it in the early years.
  
  It would not be until the Massacre at Wounded Knee in 1890 that a large number of Americans began to realize how decimating and assimilating other cultures is often brutal and barbaric.
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Natives could hold land and had similar lives to Americans in the early years. I was stunned to learn that Cherokees owned plantations in Georgia and Tennessee complete with African slaves.
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  Leta Sposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yep. Round here, next to "Skull Valley," where there was a brutal Indian massacre, they celebrate, "Exodus Day," commemoration of forced march of a couple Indian tribes through the Sonoran desert in the summer heat, with hopes that they would all be killed off.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Speak for yourself. People in the US don't know anything about being second class citizens. Just ask any Mexican Indios how much equality they find back home.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Today there is a lot of economic inequality in Mexico, which is why people have left en masse. Back during the 1800's Mexican Indios were being treated far more decently than Native American tribes here in the US. We had a policy of Indian removal and extermination. The percentage of people with full Native American ancestry in Mexico far outranks that of the US, which illustrates how disease, removal, and extermination blotted out large numbers of people.
  
  Presidents in Mexico have been full blooded Native Americans, and the US has only elected our first ethnically mixed person recently. There were many rich land owners of full Native American blood in Mexico and Latin American countries, and that has not been the same in the US up until recent years with Indian casinos. The research in these fields confirms that. Please do not speak down to me.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  ..........................
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  jiberishposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Your arrogance is a little unflattering, Sweet.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  And it doesn't get any better through constant repetition.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Lady, I don't know who you think you are, but I have family down there. In fact, there are parts of my family that won't speak to other parts of my family because they're not blue blooded enough. Now I don't care what studies you've read or what you think you know, but I've been there and I've experienced it. Have you? If not, then all you're doing is speaking out of your rear end. You claim to be educated but all you show is an unfounded arrogance in you so-called knowledge. Perhaps you should be a little less "American's are the devil" and do some real research and reading in history. All you've shown is that your teachers are biased and rather than teaching you to think, have indoctrinated you with a particular world view. Sorry you don't like what I say, but if you can refute me with facts then do so.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Your first sentence tells me I should have no self-respect of confidence, but I am not going to go away just because you think I am not worthy. I never said Americans are the devil, but if you do not realize what happened to Native Americans at the Battle of San Creek and Wounded Knee then you are misinformed. I share the real facts in my post and I am chuckling that you even can stand there are refute me! Women and men had their body parts cut off their dead bodies at the Battle of San Creek, which was actually a massacre. Unarmed elderly men, women, and children were fired upon at the Battle of Wounded Knee, and you can read this for yourself in the first hand documents of the time. Any man who tells a woman she is arrogant is no gentleman.
  
  I have read scholarly books on the subject and done my research. Your language is way out of line for this forum, and you do not even know how to speak to a lady. You are full of venom and hate. Glad not to be you! I know scholars who studied and worked at Mexican universities for ten years. Stop disparaging people and find a real hobby. Your words are way out of line.
  
  Mexico has had land owners and presidents that were full blooded Native American, which goes to show you do not know your research. Mexico has more full blooded Native Americans percentage wise than the US, which is a fact you can gather from census research. You were not alive during the events I described in the 1800's, so the reality from which you speak is your modern one. Some see only what they want to see. As for arrogance, I think you have enough to go around.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Nice, no facts again. It's sad how you don't name any of these so called scholars or any of their works. That's proof, that's providing facts. That's intellectual exchange. None of that is what you do. I'm sorry you can't effectively make points in a discussion and have to resort to hackneyed lines like "you're not a real gentleman". If you can't play with the big boys, maybe you need to go back to the playground with the little kids.
  
  Do atrocities happen in war? Of course they do. Try studying the French and Indian War or the War of 1812. Of course then you'd find that the evil white people were the ones being butchered and that just doesn't fit into your world view, does it? If you knew anything about how natives are treated south of the border in all Latin American countries, you'd know that they are second class citizens. Things there are worse than they were here during the Jim Crow years. Yet there are no evil white people to blame, so you gloss over all of that. You keep saying how intelligent you are, but you do little to show it.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What, ever? So, no women are ever arrogant, or what?
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think I saw anyone deny those events.
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Ron Montgomeryposted 15 years ago
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  Leta Sposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  For real! And those desert foods are so healthy, too.
  
  That's why they've found AZ Indians have such a high diabetes rate--the desert food sources have like, 300% the nutritional values of the stuff we Anglos eat.
  
  Cool, thanks!
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Unfortunately their indigenous foods were replaced with sugar, refined flour, and hydrogenated lard giving them an incredibly high rate of diabetes.
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SweetiePieposted 15 years ago
The Cherokees were a few of the exceptions. I am talking of the US policy of removal and widespread destruction, which eventually happened to the Cherokee too. Through out the Spanish colonies there were many Native American land holders, and they had the same right as white Spaniards. No one forced them to leave as with the Cherokees. When English and Americans came in they forced the Native Americans to migrate farther and farther West, until they were finally asked to move onto reservations. I do not consider missionary schools and the forced assimilation in the US to be as benign as the Spanish Catholicism. Both are bad, but what the Americans did was far worse.
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  countrywomenposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  SweetiePie- My husband and his office friends together went to a Casino in Native Indian reservation near Seattle. My husband/his friends spoke to an old man who told him that the government benefits of having only them have Casinos and other business has harmed them a lot. I will ask my husband more details later.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The casinos have been of benefit to many Native American tribes here in California. There are good and bad aspects, but it has brought in much need money and job for tribes such the Morongo community. The Morongos actual give money back to many of the surrounding communities, which shows their commitment to community spirit.
  
  Back in the 90's and again last year Las Vegas backed lobbies have tried to block the expansion of casinos of Native American tribes. I find Vegas to be a little of the greedy side, which is why I never really enjoy it there. If I go to a casino I would rather support our local Morongo Indians personally because they do many things to help our community.
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  countrywomenposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I just asked my husband and he briefly told me. Based on his feedback if somebody is a silent partner and it is actually being run by somebody else then the native Indians are getting used to an unhealthy "easy" life. Btw I rarely go to casinos. My husbands friends play poker and sometimes go to Casino near Seattle.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That is one take on the issue. It may be that way for the reservation he visited, but the Morongos are certainly not becoming dependent on an unhealthy lifestyle. People love gambling and gaming, and while there are unhealthy addictions to it, not everyone goes to that extreme. The Indian Casinos actually have brought more positive things into the community such as jobs, and money for educational programs. Many tribes even use this money to teach the upcoming generations about what is still left of their languages and cultures. If anyone is going to get the money for casinos I would rather see it go to tribes such as the Morongo than to Las Vegas. I actually do not even like to gamble all the much and mostly go for the great buffet.
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Leta Sposted 15 years ago
Jealousy is a very unflattering trait.

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Leta Sposted 15 years ago
Life would be so much more easy pleasy, lemon squeezy, if some just listened to their elders and accepted so-called slavery, damn.

:0) >80)
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Personally I will continue to speak out, but I know this often meets criticism .
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