If Christians can't even agree... how could anyone else?

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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
I'd like to see either of you live without it!
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  why would I have to? Religion is not attempting to destroy science, they are the two hands of the same thing???
  
  they are not opposites...
  they are not contrary to each other...
  they are not at war...
  they do not have to destroy each other to be...
  they are complimentary...
  one strengthens the other...
  
  I don't know how else to say it to get it through to you Earnie...
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  They are opposites. Religion denies science
  No, science has no interest in religion other than religionist scientists
  Religion does nothing to strengthening anything, it is simply a belief in impossible fairy tales.
  I don't know how elst to say it to you.
  You can quit the covert hostlity of trying to abbreviate my name, I do not appreciate it, and the only people who do that are all believers like you. Funny that!
  
  Your left hemisphere not letting your right hemisphere see what it is doing?
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Earny, no both hemispheres of my brain work well together as do both of my hands. Much like Science and my Religionist beliefs.
  
  Impossibility suggests proof... got any? I didn't think so...
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well Michael G wiz, I already know you listen to and learn nothing from these posts. You just insist that an outrageous hate filled invisible entity controls our lives.
  I do not need to prove anything. You are the one who believes this crud not me!
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Earny,
  If I were trying to convince you to change your beliefs I would be required to offer proof. Since I'm not trying to change your beliefs I don't. I'm not trying to change your beliefs because I believe that there is a 50/50 chance that what you believe is true. But I firmly reside in the 50 that says your wrong. Therefore calling you stupid and irrational (because you believe in something that you cannot prove)... Calling what you believe absurd, unprovable(therefore wrong) and silly again and again and again would simply be childish.
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  As childish as mis-using another persons name?
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You reap what you sew, Earny.
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You are a slimey one, I will give you that much!
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So - you do not actually believe in a 50/50 chance. Because if you did - you would not reside on either side.
  
  I also agree. there is a 50/50 chance of a god. I can go with that.
  
  And an infinite number of possible gods.
  
  Therefore - you have infinitely less chance of being "right," than I do.......
  
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Ok, yes there is a 1 in infinity chance that any exact description of God is 100% accurate.
  
  there is a 1 in 50 chance that a God exists at all.(1-50)
  and there is a 1 in 50 chance that a God doesn't exist at all.(51-100)
  
  Amongst the 50 chances that some type of God exists, reside my beliefs. Being a part of the 50% chance that a God of some type exists, does not make me a person that therefore believes that the other 50% chance (that there is no God), no longer exists.
  
  Choosing to believe that one of this half of the horses racing will win does not mean that the other horses racing in the race cease to exist.
  
  As far as your math 'proving' that you are more likely to be correct than I, is comparing apples to oranges. There is a 50/50 chance of the existence of a God, therefore I am as likely to be correct as you are.
  
  That what you claim is 100% exactly accurate is a 1 in infinity chance.
  That what I claim is 100% exactly accurate is a 1 in infinity chance.
  
  Therefore our odds are the same in both cases.
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Jeramiposted 14 years ago
SEO IT!says...

When I say "presets", I refer to the belief already set in the mind. Most of us have a tendency to set out to prove according to what we already believe, rather than keep an open mind. While I try to keep an open mind, I am aware that there are times I allow what I have "preset" to cloud my judgment. I personally know people who don't look an inch beyond the end of their own nose and "learn" from within that limited scope. Christians can fall to that as easily as anyone -- being only human.

I would agree entirely with your statement above; except for the use of the word "tendency". I see this practice as being more like an automatic reflex witch works hand in hand with our survival instincts. This is not a tendency but a 24 hour a day operational procedure that our mind uses in an attempts to protect its current perception of reality as "IT" sees it.
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Jeramiposted 14 years ago
I am sure that most everyone has received e-mails that show this to be true.
A story in which every word is misspelled and some words replaced with other words and yet you can read that e mail as quickly as when it is written correctly.

Our preconceived ideas concerning what we are reading does in fact determine our understanding of what we have just read.

We are all unknowing victims of our own preconceptions that effect every aspect of our life and beliefs.
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Twenty One Daysposted 14 years ago
Q,

???

did you read all my posts to come to that conclusion or just popped in for a quick bash-n-go?
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Beth100posted 14 years ago
Hey Earnest! We have to stop bumping into each other like this! lol Have fun!!!
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hey Beth! Good morning!
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  Beth100posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  How's your week starting? I'm heading out to catch some salmon for dinner. You have fun!!! I'll catch ya later!
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That sounds like great fun!Salmon is one of my favourite foods.
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  Beth100posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  i'll send you some...fresh or smoked? okay, gotta run..sun's gonna set in about an hour and a half...it'll be too dark then! kisses for you (early valentine's for you!) xxx
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks Beth! I love salmon any way at all!
  Happy fishin!
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Colebabieposted 14 years ago
The more I learn about religion the more confused I get...
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You and me both.
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  Webmatronposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe I can help.
  
  Religion is, simply put, the way that people attempt to get out of having to face the truth and accept nature.
  
  Nobody knows whether or not there is a God. It isn't really relevant. Everyone could concede to agnosticism, and the primitive would still always be looking for a way out of nature.
  
  Look around. Perfectly secular atheists do it all the time with ideas like feminism and animal rights, as opposed to general respect for all life.
  
  Balance and the pursuit of truth are just not enough for most people. They have to have some sort of ideology that offers them an escape from this. The persistent belief that some Santa Claus in the sky or pseudo scientific social theory can save them from nature is popular because it makes people think that they have some control over their lives, but at the same time can blame some external being (God) or internal albeit impersonal molecule (DNA) for their failings.
  
  There's a lot of money in such things, but I think that's a side benefit that profiteers kind of scavenge from the overall human condition. Until humanity evolves past that, there will always be people willing to pay preachers and other social engineers to lead them every way except forward.
  
  So yes, be confused and baffled. It's a sign that you are evolved enough to walk with your eyes open, that you can't see how people would be so silly. It's cute in a way.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  What do you mean by your use of the word 'nature'?
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  Webmatronposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  What is, despite human perspective.
  
  Few people, at the moment, are capable of embracing what is, rather than what we, with our limited knowledge, perspective, and even ability to perceive or observe, think is likely so.
  
  We can't just roll with it and try to max out our potential without either Sky Santa or perceived science holding the stick.
  
  Religious people pray rather than hoping, professing intent, and acting like the supposed children of God they believe they are.
  
  Non religious people seek loopholes and insist upon the promotion and enforcement of ideals that are just as objectively unnatural but evolutionarily natural and yet primitive as Sky Santa.
  
  Acceptance of nature has to include the acceptance of human nature. One must accept it in order to surpass it.
  
  Easier said than done though, since none of us is sure exactly what that is, except by looking at human history in indivdual, honest detail.
  
  So really, as far as what I mean when I say "nature"...I can only kind of vouch for what I think I know/have learned thusfar, but I know "somewhere out there" is a truth that even I am not and may never be privy to in this lifetime or any as a 3 dimensional creature.
  
  That truth is what nature is, and none of us is smarter than it. The world would be a much cooler place, I think, if more people got that idea.
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  drej2522posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I say become ignorant and stay that way...it seems like the way to go these days.
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lyricsingrayposted 14 years ago
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The Paulposted 14 years ago
If it's true that given a universe exists there is a 50/50 chance it has a creator god (not that that makes any sense) that doesn't leave us with a 50% chance of god.

Of the trillions of gods we could imagine, many of them are observable and from observation we know they don't exist.

If we've got a universe and some sort of hyper-cosmic die toss is determining whether or not it has a god... well even if we can't see what numbers came up on the dice we can see which ones didn't. There's a bunch of god numbers we know didn't come up.

There are fewer possible god numbers than non-god numbers.

So it's not at 50/50 even if we assent to such a bold assumption.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  There is a 1 in infinity chance that any exact description of God is 100% accurate.
  
  there is a 1 in 50 chance that a God exists at all.(1-50) [50 chances]
  and there is a 1 in 50 chance that a God doesn't exist at all.(51-100) [50 chances]
  50=50 50 is not geater than 50 nor is it less than 50 therefore they are the same hence = . therefore the equation is a 50/50 proposition.
  
  That what you claim is 100% exactly accurate is a 1 in infinity chance.
  That what I claim is 100% exactly accurate is a 1 in infinity chance.
  Therefore again our odds are the same in both cases 50/50 .
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  The Paulposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'll explain with dice.
  
  If I throw an ordinary, fair, six-sided die, the probability the numbers come up in the upper half of possible results is 3/6 or 1/2 or 0.5 or however you care to express it. Pretty simple, I'm sure you understand it that far.
  
  If I attach an electronic device that die so that it emits a loud electric beep if it comes up 4 or 5 (and the die remains fair) and then I throw the die the odds are exactly the same, 50/50 that the result is in the upper half of possible results.
  
  But if I am blindfolded, and the die is modified as I have described, and I have already thrown it, and I have heard no beep, what are the odds it has come up in the upper half of possible results?
  
  It might be tempting for some people to say it's still 50/50, but if the die is in the upper half, it is showing a six. The odds of a six showing are not 50/50. The odds the die has come up six is 1/4, and so the odds the number showing is in the upper half of possible results is also 1/4.
  
  That might seem counter-intuitive, so consider 6 trillion trials of the die toss. The die is fair, so each possible result should have come up 1 trillion-ish times. A trillion 1's, a trillion 2's, and so on, a trillion 6's.
  
  When we are considering a scenario where I have heard no beep, we know the die is not showing 4 or 5. When we discard all 4 and 5 results we're left with a trillion each of 1, 2, 3, and 6 on about 4 trillion total trials, which roughly expresses the probability in this situation.
  
  Of 4 trillion total results, only 1 trillion sit in the upper half of all possible results of a die toss. 1/4. If you don't want to take my word for it, look up the Monty Hall problem, it's similar in concept and less abstract.
  
  Now of the gods that could be suggested, infinity gods if we allow for infinity detail of description, a significant portion are detectable. The metaphorical die beeps on certain results. If we started with a 50% chance that some god, any god, exists, we're now down to somewhere under 50% because we know many of the possible gods do not exist.
  
  A god who will appear before me and deliver to me a donut if I type, "slcuga'" for instance, I know does not exist.
  
  Now, it's true that infinity - 1 is still infinity, but we've only got infinite possible gods with infinite detail of description.
  
  We know an omnipotent, omniscient god who shares our moral sense does not exist because we would easily detect it if it did. Some goes for an omnipotent, omniscient god who shares our moral sense and has blue hair, an omnipotent, omniscient god who shares our moral sense and likes Iron Maiden, an omnipotent, omniscient god who shares our our sense except for it thinks hangnails are pretty cool, and so on.
  
  A powerful god that communicates it's will plainly is similarly ruled out no matter how many details are added. We can knock down whole swaths of gods here.
  
  And furthermore, most of the undetectable gods we can imagine are pointless.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  again your unfounded opinion.
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  The Paulposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Come now, if you're going to hold an irrational belief, just tell me "I believe I am right and everyone who says I'm wrong is wrong."
  
  Then I'll know not to bother trying to have a rational discussion with you.
  
  You tease.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Ok, if you say so...
  
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  The Paulposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  See. Couldn't you just have done that from the start?
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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
I't dead simple really. There are flowers in the bottom of my garden. OK possible, even likely.

There are fairies at the bottom of my garden. Nonsense!

50 50?
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Crazdwriterposted 14 years ago
Hey earnest, hey Mikel, hey Jerami...wanted to stop by and say hey
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hiya crazd!
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  Crazdwriterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  How have you been earnest?
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Crazdwriterposted 14 years ago
Drej! love the new pic...is that a cheetah?
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  drej2522posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Crazzzzzzzzzd!...leopard...sleeping leopard. It was a nickname of mine years ago.
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  Crazdwriterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Of course! leopard. cheetahs and leopards look a like when far away. He is soooo cute though! Can I go sleep with him? as long as he keeps me in the tree what was a nickname of yours? Leopard or Sleeping leopard?
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  drej2522posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  ha, sure sleep with the leopard!
  
  And it was just Leopard. I experimented with my hair and bleached portions of it...And when I had it cut again, it left a checkered pattern of yellow and black...so, leopard.
  
  and sorry for getting off topic, religious thread...although, I find this conversation just as...educational.
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  Crazdwriterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  okay goodie lol
  
  and interesting hair experiment. have any pics?
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Jeramiposted 14 years ago
@ crazdwriter Hay back atcha. Just got outa hot tub. When ya get old that will call for a power nap.
But wanted to say HAY .. first. back in a bit.
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  Crazdwriterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  ooo hot tub sounds nice. Have sweet dreams during your nap
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Poor choice of words on my part... Hot Bath, I shudda said. now off to lay down and fall tosleep watching UFC. Back in a bit.
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drej2522posted 14 years ago
crazd...hmmm, that was over a decade ago...hmm, I would have to really dig for those pics!
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  Crazdwriterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Dig boy dig! lol just kidding it's okay if you don't do it
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Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years ago
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
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  Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Mikel, how do i make those avatars?
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  When you reply the text is all there, all you have to do is copy and paste it into your reply... here it is again----->
  
  that's is all there is to it.
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thevoiceposted 14 years ago
holy human birth right with God Jesus the holy spirit you are the living DNA of God.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I think your in the wrong thread... that was the cagsil grail thread...
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  Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  finally a clearer 'voice'. thank you, thank you thank you!
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die(go)posted 14 years ago
Religion is the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power. We all have one. What is it to you?
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  Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  a religion is classified as that, but in fact is not.
  a religion is a system of beliefs based on theoretical ideologies/proofs/documents that lead one to accept certain things as truth. Whether or not you add 'superhuman' to it.
  
  religion:
  
  A collection of practices, based on beliefs and teachings that are highly valued or sacred.
  
  -Any practice that someone or some group is seriously devoted to.
  -Any ongoing practice one engages in, in order to shape their character or improve traits of their personality.
  -Our ideological and traditional heritage.
  
  hmm, sounds the same as science, social networking, etc.
  again, the point: all 'religions' are impractical, illogical -be them under the guise of super-natural or scientific method.
  
  ( New Age: the wedding of the millennium a critique of the relationship between science & theology )
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Haven't yet read that definition? You should.
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  Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Q, read it and whatev'z.
  Fact is fact.
  
  Science is just another guise of control, same as any theology.
  It is a belief system, having a set of specific methods/practices/rituals based on logic/information to determine some outcome/proof.
  
  it is an all respect a form of enlightenment/discovery.
  
  I posted the definition in another forum thread just yesterday:
  "is everyone a scientist"
  
  Cheers.
  and hey, thanks for speaking up
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Nope, that's not it. Let me help you. Science is a method of understanding how our world works through observation and experimentation.
  
  I have no idea what you're referring.
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GreatContentposted 14 years ago
The attitude is that one should not care initially about why the majority of Christianity disagrees with each other. The individual person should personally investigate to their own conclusions..... working hard to keep what they believe in line with the word.
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Jeramiposted 14 years ago
If Christians can not agree what they need to do is to find their commonalities and pitch the rest,
And then build something from there.
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mel22posted 14 years ago
I think the answer to why so many divisions and splits ,were when the next translation was made slightly different words made slightly different interpretations and rather than always translating from an original to a new language out in hub to spoke fashion it was sometimes done in series , further confusing the interpreted text and obscuring the meaning to make different fragmented views from what was supposed to be the same content... Kinda like the reason why robots.txt/block are added to translated articles on google so whenever a translation is done it always gets the translation from the original to keep the chance of obscuring the document from happening. if you translate from the already translated document every time the text becomes slightly blurred and obscured from the original. - DISCLAIMER - the poster does not reflect the views of Christianity or Atheism so all posters should consult a physician or medical doctor b4 beleiving these statements.
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  What you said is true;... But that is no excuse for us. Why do we not go back and read The book of Daniel as if we have never heard any interpretations at all. Read this chapter as if we were a Lawyer or an English professor to see what these verses really say instead of CLAIMING TO BELIEVE THOSE THINGS THAT SOMEONE ELSE HAS READ THE SCRIPTURES AND THEN TELL US WHAT THEY HAVE SAID.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I think the point is 'christians' try to lend weight to their opinion by calling themselves 'christians' and making the statement 'christians' believe something rather than saying 'I' an individual believes something...
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  I'm talking before I think here as I sometimes do. Here I go.
  Sometimes people want to hide in a croud so they can say WE believe THIS, when in fact "WE" do not believe that. Depending upon the croud that "WE" are standing in, None of us know what we are standing up for.
  When people do not know what they realy believe but build a following upon that... Shame on US.
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Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years ago
I agree, and think we just said the same thing using different words....
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  yea I guess we did. Sometimes people can hear something a hundred times and then someone words it a little diffrent and then... OH yea that is what "He" meant when he said that?? GOLL...LEE ... now I see.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  lol
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Marliza Gunterposted 14 years ago
JESUS SAID HE CAME TO BRING THE SWORD, 2 WILL BE AGAINST 3 AND 3 AGAINST 2. YOUR ENEMIES WILL FIRSTLY BE OF YOUR OWN HOUSEHOLD... YOU GOTTA THINK LIKE JESUS DO... HE'S THE BEST POLITICIAN AND BUSINESS MAN ALIVE!!
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brotheryochananposted 14 years ago
Its actually not about agreeing. Who believes what and which doctrine. The spiritual road to God is through jesus christ and it's a personal walk. Indeed we could forget about what's happening in revelations and when the rapture will be (not that there will be one lol). We can forget about who discerns genesis 3 properly or who can memorize the most verses. Jesus says you can get to the father via me for we are the same in mind, spirit and philosophy. So really all we need to agree on is what jesus preached. The good news, salvation and redemption by way of the cross, all else is irrelevant. Agreeing or disagreeing is a fleshly thing, like competition. Its all about jesus and what he did on the cross to save mankind. Like i said, It is a personal walk, loving god.
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Just thinking out loud here after reading this post.
  
  Jesus said that he and the father are one and that he is the only way to the father..
  Did he also say that we have to call him by the correct name??? NO ! But if he did ?? how can we be sure what the correct name is ??
  If we had to call him by the "CORRECT" name... that would make it too easy for the deciever to cause us to fall.
  
  I agree with the statement that; all that is revelant is that we follow those things that Jesus taught.
  And question all of the interpretations that man has inflicted upon his teachings.
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blake4dposted 14 years ago
Wow, it is too bad that Religion and Spiritual beliefs inevitably bring about the kind of disorder, disrespect, and chaotic thinking that has been expressed in abundance if you have read through this entire forum post.

As far as the topic of Chrisitanity goes, historically the major division of thought does come from the edicts and decision to eliminate much of the written works in favor of keeping other texts in the modern Biblical translation, coming down from the Council at Nicea.

Also I don't think anyone mentioned that there have been new text that are still in debate/ The Dead Sea Scrolls around 1945, and the Nag Hammadi (Q texts) in 1972...and other points of reference might be looked at with the opening of the Egyptian pharonic tombs, and pyramid text and wall writings (yes most don't see these as Chrisitan but they were writings from that era).

Even more importantly much of the Jewish Toran (old Testament for gentiles) traces its roots and some actual stories to Zoroastrian & Hinduism (ie, Noah and the Flood, prophecies of Daniel etc.)and also that most Christian beliefs concerning Satan and the war in heaven come from Dante, Shakespeare, Francis Bacon, and H.C. Aggrippa (except for the Nephilum reference, Job, and some Apocryphal writingsalmost none of the Luciferian doctrine is Biblical).

And I will not even waste more time defending the arguements that make poor Jesus (be he a myth or a man is irrelevant). Like Buddha, Krishna, and all the good leaders before his time. His words is so twisted by the modern followers of Christianity, that most do more harm with their beliefs than anything else.

But more importantly, Look at what a bad example most of this discussion has been for someone truly seeking help, healing or guidance. It is shameful...that humans are still basically animals, myself the first to admit I am one of the herd.
Blessed Be...
An eternal non-believer...
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SirDentposted 14 years ago
Psa 133:1 Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  ... and with staunch and diametrically opposed religious beliefs.
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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
So it is your devil that makes people disagree with your religion?
That is so funny! Outside religion their is no devil!
What a pointless thing to say!

Satan, the fairies fairy!
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If Christians can't even agree... how could anyone else?

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