Is politics a religion and which side are you on?

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   Mighty Momposted 10 years ago

   It's occurred to me that the political forums here are beginning to sound a lot like the religion forums.
   My side is so right and your side is so wrong.
   Never the twain shall meet in the middle.
   
   So if you agree there's an analogy here, would you describe yourself as politically on  the Christian team, the atheist team, or another team ... and why?

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      PrettyPantherposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      I don't consider myself to be on a team, although I think others view it that way.  Just because my views more closely coincide with one side doesn't mean I always side with them.
      
      Besides, how loyal to one team can I be if I married a Republican?  lol

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   2. 74

      William F. Torpeyposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      It's not a "my side" vs "your side" contest, Mighty Mom. It's only one side -- right wingers (not necessarily all Republicans) have hijacked the old GOP and are now trying to convert our democracy into a theocracy and corporatocracy controlled by the ultra-rich. If they get their way this country will soon become a nation of the super wealthy and the dirt poor. To achieve their goals they are willing to do everything in their power to block any progress in our efforts to improve the economy to the detriment of our country. They apparently would rather be ruled by the Ten Commandments than the U.S. Constitution.

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         eternals3ptemberposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Thank God someone remembers the Old Grand Old Party, back before all this....

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         Dr Billy Kiddposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         William, I keep thinking how Hitler was VOTED into office and how Hitler was the first billionaire.

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      50 Caliberposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Mom, a pretty interesting question to say the least, I had to stop and think a second on this question. In my thoughts there is a line I have to draw in respect to the words used in the observation that you asked about. I see:
      1. religion = churchianity a system of beliefs that apply to certain strains of buildings that house a gathering of like minded folks of an outline created by the the guy who stands in the pulpit on days of worship.
      2. Politics often = item 1 above the guy who stands in the pulpit often preaches the line of how his "flock" should vote and support.
      So with that said, I believe in a higher power, the creator of all that is. I don't believe that the multitude of religious groups are able to yield their success or prosperity in life to a higher power, I think you and I have some common ground on that aspect of being willing to let loose of our grip of imaginary power to control life while hooked on any mind or mood altering substance, that I extend to words or messages allowed into our ears and received by our brains and cause bursts of adrenalin or other things already in us to be released, like dopamine. So I absolutely think,  from my meandering and reading with out comment the topics in the religion category, and political category, that it is a loud resounding, "YES"
      I left organized religion on that very issue, a big over fed Baptist pastor climbed out of his left sided seat (from his position left) as the congregation saw him it was their right side and his sing along leader set in the other big soft chair on the congregations left but his, right side of the pulpit.
      The best I can remember that seat arrangement has been a constant in the buildings that I entered to watch an hour long presentation that filled the gap of time before beer sales were allowed after 12 noon on Sundays and the suit and tie crowd tossed their bibles in the back seat and raced to the Circle K for a few 12 packs and  dips and chips to go with their afternoon of sports on the TV.
      I wonder if there is some political reason the seating is pretty well a constant in their pecking order?
      So my answer is Yes, and the why is presented by main stream media with many references to support it. Pastors, Jeremiah Wright, Jessie Jackson, Al Sharpton, and the chubby white guy I voted for in 2008 primaries but his name slips my mind at the moment but I seem to remember seeing on a computer video he has a new job, working for Television and what type of show I don't know or who he works for I don't know either, I just know he sold out a congregation for his religion for more money and a television spot, aah "Huckabee" just sparked across my single brain cell that I've not killed yet. They seem to juggle together the two issues and I know that the last sermon I got up and left on was by a fat Baptist preacher who opened with a regular ceremonial prayer while we all looked around to see who was peeking, or like me blatantly looking around and probably thinking about ripping a butt bark on the hard wooden pew that I had discovered as a kid to be a great sounding board at quiet moments, an "Amen" that caused every kid in the place to bust up laughing. I didn't take churchianity seriously as a kid and as a grown up when this sermon erupted into a speech about President Clinton and his sexual preference or was it "Cigar Humidifier" choice? I got up and left and never went back.
      I rarely come here, (to the forums) because the topics in religion get torn into by political branches and the politics seem to become dredged in religious corn flakes before frying a would be contributor, resulting in ire and needless conflicts that are off topic by the range of a cruise missile and it's ability to fly around the world and shoot it's self in the butt.
      I have to say that as of late the three that I've commented in have been quite civil in manner even though there has been a conflict of views, and that is the point and civility should be the rule.
      I have seen or heard of a few getting banned for a few days here and there and was surprised to find an author of HP writing hubs was totally banned from the complete community due to offending the wrong person at the right time, an epic showing of politics vs commenter and the Gavel fell on him with a complete permanent ban.
      I have no idea the circumstances so I have no opinion other than I will miss reading his hubs. It was a conflict of belief that fell to the political system and in my mind, the perfect example of the clash of politics and religious commentaries that struck that day.
      I would prefer to see the names of the mediators of sections revealed, I find it fun to be fooled but sometimes more fun to know. I realize that HP is a business and band width isn't free, I'm a guest here and some times I forget that fact and type responses I should not have that are in print and I rang the bell a few times that can't be un- rang. I reckon that is about all I have to offer right now. I'll hang in here as comments come to see how this topic flows and grows,
      until then,
      Peace and Blessings,
      50

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      gmwilliamsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Definitely,  one side(the side a person believes in) is the good "God", logical, intelligent, and sane side while the opposing side is insane, stupid, satanic, illogical, communisitc side.    Americans love their politics even more so than religion.   In fact, to many Americans, POLITICS is RELIGION.

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      1. 80

         Mighty Momposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         That's the conclusion I've drawn, too.
         Although I find people even more zealotry in political discussions (at least the last several months).
         
         I know many Christians consider it their duty to spread the word and try to convert others.
         I would not try to argue or strongarm someone into converting to my faith.
         But I for some crazy reason feel differently about politics.
         If I can just convert one Independent... just one.
         

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         1. 94

            habeeposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            You know, I actually think of elections more as sporting events. There are cheerleaders, diehard fans, interested spectators, and lukewarm spectators who just enjoy the entertainment aspect and don't really care which team wins.
            
            "Barack Obama, he's our man!
            If he can't save us, no one can!"
            
            "Romney, Romney, has our back!
            Send Obama home to pack!"

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            1. 80

               Mighty Momposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               That's exactly how I've been thinking of it, too.
               The Super Bowl of FANTASY Football.
               
               
               We could find some diversion in writing cheers.
               Maybe tomorrow.
               After we send Hollie Thomas some broccoli.
               

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                  habeeposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  Cool! Bet you'll come up with some great cheers!

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      Dr Billy Kiddposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Foreigners tell me Americans have one religion: Money
      Foreigners tell me Americans have two political parties: they fight over their religion--money. The fight is so intense that middle class Americans have been trained to hate each other.

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         Mighty Momposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Working backwards from your last sentence:
         1. Yes. We have. Not sure who engineered this, but rank and file Americans have become gladiators. Pitted against each other to the death.  And what do we get out of it? Poorer!
         2. That is probably true. Underneath the guise of freedom and rights and all that, it really is about money, isn't it? So sad.
         3. This one makes me really sad. I must be an atheist and didn't know it!
         

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2. 95

   Jean Bakulaposted 10 years ago

   Politics shouldn't be a religion, that's the whole reason behind the separation of Church and State. I believe that these men (most of them are men, even in these times) are clueless as how to solve the problems in this country, so make it about women's issues and religion, to deflect their lack of intelligence or experience. I used to describe myself as an agnostic, but now am more of a seeker. The two "teams" are way out of whack, and don't give a hoot about our country or the American people.
   The Dems are actually becoming more the way the R's were in the 1950's and 1960's. We need to rebuild our bridges and roads. We can cut the military budget and stop bullying other countries. People have to stop voting these clowns into office, because it's only the rich who can play the game. The so called religious ones are the biggest hypocrites of all, with their holier than thou attitudes and scriptures for every occasion. I guess I'd be on the Buddhist team, just living life in the moment, and treating people as well as I could as the situations arise.

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3. 61

   Jonathan Jancoposted 10 years ago

   No MM, religion is politics.
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBnI40SHxV0

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4. 61

   Lisa HWposted 10 years ago

   My post turned so long (as my posts tend to do sometimes) that I was thinking about turning it into a Hub.  Then, though, I decided I couldn't really be bothered; so I'm posting it here (which makes sense, since the thread-question is what got me going with the long reply  ).  Anyway...   I'm posting the long reply here.  It's part vent, part-rant,but mostly just my aim to contribute to fueling this particular discussion.  Jean Bakula has said something very similar to what I say below.    Needless to say, people can skip over my long post if they don't want to read it.
   
   Just as I've created and/or selected my own, individual, set of isolated beliefs with regard to religion, I'm the same with politics.  There are things about both sides that I disagree with and/or think are out-and-out misguided (at best).  I keep thinking I'm going to write a Hub about the ways in which both sides are wrong about one thing or another, or about the ways in which people from both sides are often clueless when it comes to the realities of life and what would be most useful in solving some of the problems.  OR, I may write a book, because I've been in situations that have helped me see how or why some solutions to some problems aren't really solutions.
   
   I'm registered as Republican because, back when I signed up, I was opposed to too much government intervention into too many things.  I overlooked some of the more extreme/misguided/ignorant thinking/policies associated with the Republican party because the "main idea" was closer to my thinking than the "main idea" behind the Democratic party.  Things have gone on, and some of things that have come out of the Republican party have irked me more and more, because some of the thinking is just downright clueless.   Still, there's no way that I could just do a switch, because I've seen for myself how destructive some policies/beliefs are that come out of the Democrat side of things.   Things have also gone on in my personal life that have made me pretty horrified at the way things are done and designed when some types of Liberal thinking/attitude make their way into policies/ laws.
   
   Before I experienced all that "first-hand experience" with the ways in which government fails people who need their rights protected and most deserve their rights be protected,  I used to think of myself as a just-over-the-border Republican - never in any deeper than that.  After I've seen the ways in which any number of government agencies and/or the court system/legal system damage and/or destroy the lives of people who would have been perfectly fine without the marauding and overbearing intrusion of government into personal business (when it wasn't otherwise called for), I'm beyond disgusted and shocked.  I'm horrified.  What's worse is that whether it's Republicans or Democrats, people in The System/government all tend to look at citizens as the cause of problems; rather than looking at what I see as major causes of/contributors to a whole lot of serious problems - the government and how it does things and "thinks", itself.  Without going into the whole story/situation/facts, one simple example I have is that my Constitutional rights have been disregarded.  I've come to see that The Constitution can be a matter of nice words on paper that don't really apply in real life, or at least in some situations.
   
   I used to have some foundation of a sense of Patriotism there.  After what has gone on in my life (and in the lives of those involved, as well as the lives of others not in my life but in similar situations), that's gone.  I had this thing that my mother lost her first young husband in WWII,and that my father was a WWII veteran; but that when their American-born daughter, for the one and only time in her life, needed something from the court system; not only did the court system fail, but it dragged in people to make a mess that I never would have had in my life if the court system had done its job the way it is supposed to (and honestly- what I'm saying isn't a matter of hearing "only one side of the story",and it's not a matter of someone proclaiming innocence of one thing or another when she's really not as innocent as she claims). 
   
   I was raised hearing the old thing about how middle-of-the-road people "don't stand for anything".  That's not true.  Middle-of-the-road people often stand for something (maybe a whole  lot of things) and are not willing to compromise the important things for which they stand in order to align themselves with a party beyond just choosing a ballot during the primaries.
   
   My "religion" (political ideas) is that neither party understands citizens, and neither party respects them enough to aim for laws/policies that are geared to the "OK-ness" of people, and to the fact that most people are the same when it comes to being willing to work hard, wanting their kids to have an education, wanting their family members to have good health care, and being smart and capable enough to build a nice life if a) the government stays out of the way (or more importantly, doesn't come into whole and healthy lives and mess them up), and b) there were some good laws that stopped some big businesses (but also government) from mucking up "the works" and lives.
   
   My "religion" is that people shouldn't vote from their own self-interest.  They need to vote for what's good for the country.  It's that there isn't enough value of/respect for citizens coming from too many people in government (regardless of side), and that nobody (not even a lot of citizens themselves) recognizes how capable, intelligent, whole, and responsible most people really are (regardless of whether or not they have an impressive education or whether or not they live in a third-floor apartment that they can't always afford to heat).
   
   I actually worked for a government agency for awhile a few years ago.  They have new employees take the same oath that Presidents take.  I realized that I didn't need to take that oath because swearing "to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic" (if I have the wording correct) was something I'd always been ready to do.  I'd lived my life believing that the founding principles were things to live by and aim to defend any time it appeared something was contrary to those principles.  I wasn't a big flag-waving kind of Patriotic person.  It was just there - kind of deep and quiet, but always there.  Like a lot of people, I had the luxury of innocently believing that my rights would be protected, and that the court system would be there for me if/when I needed it to be.
   
   The one and only time I really needed any kind of individual protection of rights from the government/court system, I was completely disregarded; and so was justice, truth, and accountability.  After a lifetime of naively believing that "The Flag" would always be there if/when I needed my freedoms and rights protected (as well as my children's and other family members'), I discovered that it was all a big sham - nothing but words, because my whole case was handled behind closed doors; and in a way so bizarre I feel like I'm living in The Twilight Zone (or else Bizarro World) to this day.
   
   As far as voting goes, I vote if there's someone I happen to respect more than the one opposing him/her; and I'll vote if it's a matter of two equally acceptable/unacceptable people but I want to vote against a party.  Other than that, I'm not above not voting if I find both candidates equally unappealing.  Romney was governor of Massachusetts for years.  He either didn't notice, or overlooked, some of atrocious policies that go on in this state.   There are things I've heard and seen him do that don't make me think he truly sees women as equals.  Condescending behavior toward women is one of those things.  As for the other one, I'm not about to vote for him either.  So I'll vote for people running for other offices but sit out the Presidential election.  As a just-over-the-border/middle-of-the-road-type person, I do stand for something; and that is that my vote isn't going to go to anyone that I think isn't particularly good for the country and/or doesn't see equality in fellow citizens the way s/he ought to.
   
   Religion-wise, I'd say I tend not to believe there's a God; but since I won't allow myself to make that jump (mostly because, underneath, I not only need to think there might be, but am afraid there might be lessons if there is and I give up that low-level-but-ingrained belief that there is).  As far as politics and the nation go, it's kind of the same thing for me:  Way down deep I do care about the country and the principles on which it was founded, and do believe that they "work" a good part of the time; BUT, when I think of how this country and its courts/laws/programs are so often there for people other than I; but how when I needed those things to work for me (when I was born here, born the daughter of a WWII vet, raised around Boston and immersed in the importance and significance of its history, have always been ready to try to defend - in one way or another - this country's principles and/or other citizens; and pretty much did everything a person is supposed to do (including being honest in court) ) there was nobody and nothing to stand up for or protect my rights, my children's rights and overall well-being, or the well-being of some other family members.
   
   So, I don't mean to sound self-righteous or self-aggrandizing, but as a middle-of-the-road-type person who has discovered what I've discovered about how things work in this country, I like to think that I stand for the rights of me, my family, and other Americans who may not know how bad things really are (but may one day find their own lives raped, damaged and/or destroyed at the hands of a government full of law-makers who, at best, don't have a clue about the real lives, real capabilities, and real potential of citizens).
   
   Right now, the problem (as I see it) is that (at least the most visible/powerful) people in government are not capable of truly understanding the real lives/needs/potential of citizens; and because of that, I don't see anyone running who represents me, what I stand for, or something I think of as worthy of my vote.
   
   I don't want to come across as some anti-government/anti-America crazy, because I care deeply about the principles on which this nation was founded and care very much about the rights of fellow citizens.  I also believe that change can be made peacefully, with votes (or lack of them), words, and people finding all those things they have in common with other civilized, caring, peace-loving, people who want their country stronger - not turned upside down, torn down, or torn apart.
   
   The following link is NOT intended to imply or suggest that I AT ALL think there should be the kind of revolution that took place when this nation was founded.  Today is a different time,and things can be differently.  Besides, a new nation doesn't need to be formed.  Something just has to be done to get back the core principles of the old nation.
   
   The reason I'm posting the link is that there are so many things said that hit very close to home for a lot of people today (I know it hits disturbingly and horrifyingly close to home for me), if, instead of a King and another country, the words referred to things that go on within our own, present-day, government.  I know there are people who will think I'm "being dramatic" or "being melodramatic" here, but - really - if what has gone on in my life could have gone on, it could happen to pretty much anyone.
   
   http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/
   
   For all the talk about how people "in the middle" "don't stand for anything", I really think - whether it's with religion OR politics - it's the more balanced, reasonable, people who hovered at that border between Left and Right who a) stand for things we most often all have in common, and b) have the best and most reasonable understanding of the real issues in real lives.  Why anyone would even consider voting for someone too far beyond that dividing line is beyond me.  We all know how it all works with getting votes from people from one group or another, but - I can't help it - I think "how it all works" doesn't particularly work if/when the true aim is to get to the root of the problems to be solved by truly understanding them and doing something about them.
   
   In any case, I have enough in common with both sides that pretty much feel mainstream and "core America", but little enough in common with both sides that I also feel very much like an outsider in the country in which I once felt I could trust when it came to believing that I'd have freedom to live my life, protect my own children from unnecessary harm/damage to their lives and be able to do the whole "pursuit of happiness" thing that I've been robbed of for a full twenty years of my life now.

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      carol3sanposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      I believe in government for the people and by the people.  As I see it, the problem is the disagreement of both major parties in how to advance this cause.
      
      I grew up in the christian faith, but now I lean towards no longer believing in organized religion.  Umfortunately, religion itself has become too political and some churches even encourages their congregation to vote for one party over another.
      
      I understand that both parties has its faults but since I have to choose one of them,  I will identify myself as a  a proud democrat.
      
      What I most admire about the democratic party is that they seem to get it.  Despite all of the shenanigans that goes on (in both parties), I believe that the democratic party is most represenative of the people in general.
      
      The republicans on the other hand, are more concerned about big business and corporations.  They favor the rich and limit their tax obligations by putting more of the tax burden on the backs of the poor.

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         Lisa HWposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         There's a difference between "The Republicans" (as in platform in general) and "registered Republicans".  As a registered Republican I don't favor big business because over "the poor".  I've been "The Poor", and the only reason I have has to do with how things are done in The System that essentially leave people who have plenty of work experience and background (even several different types of skills/background) who may need temporary help and/or protection of some sort  without either.
         
         "Help" is available for anyone who is willing to "go with the program" (any "program" associated with the court system and/or system in general, including Welfare-type programs); but it's only available to people willing to do things the government's way.  That may seem fair and reasonable enough, in view of the need to reduce fraud (etc.), but for a perfectly capable and healthy person whose only needs are a) some temporary protection of some sort, and/or b) something like a one-time, short-term, need for money; that's not there. 
         
         People who won't pretend they need the advice/instruction of state-workers (who may not be as educated or run their lives/raise their children anywhere near as well as the person seeking help) will obviously be without help.  There's no such thing in government programs (at least in  Massachusetts) as, "No thanks.  I don't need your job training.  All I need is a one-time loan to get myself an apartment, and maybe a couple of months to find some halfway decent paying job."
         
         I was offered health insurance I didn't want or need at the time, food stamps (when I was fine eating what I was eating), job training (when I had more than one decent and marketable skill), and even the "opportunity" to play up "depression" (quotes are for my case, because I didn't have depression) or "PTSD" (quotes are for my case, because even if I did have a case of it, it was extremely mild and didn't really affect my functioning and/or ability to work).
         
         There's just no, "No thanks.  I'm fine.  All I need is a couple of thousand dollars to get started with a new life, now that I've done what a lot of women are afraid to do - leave my marriage."    Oh - and did I mention that the government doesn't allow the person who leaves a marriage to say, "..and by the way, even though my husband happens to claim to think I'm crazy; I'm not - so please don't make up your reports with additional information from him or anyone he's convinced to "worry about" me."
         
         There's a whole book's worth of stuff that a person would have to have experienced in order to see how it all works.
         
         Then, though, big business isn't any better for the person who leaves his/her home and has no money.  A bank like Bank of America (let's just say, "for example") has nothing in place that would allow the person whose income is less than x000 a month to have even something like reserve credit on a checking account.  Then, there are the big fees and a whole world of goings-on (with regard to how banks process things and assess fees).  Yes, some things are in the checking account information people get when they open the account, but people in SOME situations can't even concentrate sometimes.  Calling banks (or the like) can result in getting different answers from different people.  So, without details on that part of the problem, let's just say banks and The System (government system) somehow (even if not planned this way) work together against the people most in need of, and deserving of, help.
         
         I've also been at the higher end of "middle income" and know what it liked for people to work hard, get their education, do what they're supposed to do, and be taxed down to "middle of middle income" (which can be struggling more than the person would otherwise ever have had to do).    So, for me, high end of middle income or no-income; nothing that's associated with the Democratic party has been good for, useful to, or helpful to me.    Of course, Republicans are known for the old "bootstrap line", and that's where people who have never experienced a situation of essentially having his hands tied in one way or another cluelessly see themselves as "having pulled themselves up by the bootstraps and overcome."  By virtue of having overcome challenges, it's obviously clear that these sometimes arrogant/egotistical individuals (who may well have overcome a lot but who think they're "big cheeses" because of it) are absolutely clueless about the reality that a) some people have no bootstraps, and b) some people have them but have the government come in and destroy them.
         
         Honestly...   As someone with solid background, skills, ambition, and ability; I've more than once kind of put together "something out of nothing" (no bootstraps involved); only to have it a) destroyed by something related to how the government/System does things, or b) not be destroyed, but not be nearly enough.  And do you know what would have gotten me and my kids on our way when I had to leave the marriage?  Truth within the legal/court system, a few admissions of relatively minor mistakes made within The System,and a lawyer's letter or visit to the court (or else a few hundred dollars to clear up an inspection-sticker issue).

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   knolyourselfposted 10 years ago

   Personally I enjoyed the last two posts as great.
   
   Where is the money?
   http://www.opednews.com/articles/1/Tril … 25-86.html

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   Mighty Momposted 10 years ago

   I must say, I am enjoying the creative and broad interpretations of this question.
   Thanks all for sharing your experience and thoughts!
   And videos!
   MM

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   1. 0

      JaxsonRaineposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      MM
      
      I'm center-right fiscally, and fairly center socially.
      
      There is no single candidate that I can say 'Wow, he's awesome!'. I can only pick the best candidate for the situation we are in. Right now, I think it's the economy and jobs, and I think Romney has the right idea where Obama simply doesn't.
      
      I know Romney panders to the far right, but I'm so glad he's moderate, and I think he'll try to govern that way if elected.

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   Draxposted 10 years ago

   I saw that a verbose person called Lisa something posted a big long reply that I did not read since I have a life to lead (& it screwed up my scrolling ;-) ) but yes of course, like WTF... we are all tribes... we are raised in the farms so we will respond to the other tribes in a predictable fashion.. what do you expect ? that the outcome will be different... what has changed, did I miss something major in human evolution...

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   agilitymachposted 10 years ago

   I do not believe the current political situation is a Christian vs. others issue.  Except for a few non-thinking, kneejerk folks out there, political views should be exceedingly individualized - like fingerprints.
   
   As a Christian, I am on neither "side."  I stand my own ground with my own set of beliefs as I interpret God's word.  I would expect others to stand their own ground with their own set of beliefs based on their own world paradigms/faith systems. 
   
   I would NOT expect any thinking person to take a kneejerk reaction to one "side" or the other because that's where all the other people of their religion, non-religion, race, age group, sex or any of the other silly things that we divide ourselves into are standing.
   
   In short as a Christian, I think for myself, thank you.

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      Draxposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      alas not, sorry to burst your bubble... since if you are a christian then you have already been conditioned to think like that.. so you are unable to think for yourself, that is clear from your statement so think again... ;-)

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         Mighty Momposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Thank you, you captured the essence of my question perfectly, even though the question itself brought out a host of alternate interpretations and discussions (a good thing!).
         
         Many of us who refuse to get into the "Christian/atheist" polemic in the religion forums actually bring the same "blind faith" and/or lack of critical thinking to the politics forums.
         We believe 100% in the rightness (goodness) of "our" side and the wrongness (evilness) of the opposition.
         To me, it's a fascinating phenomenon.

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            Draxposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            my pleasure MM... religious discussion here in North Ireland has always been problematic so it is always interesting to see it discussed in semi civilised fashion (without guns)... lol

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         agilitymachposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         I'm sorry you don't get it Drax.  That's clear from your statement as well.

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            Draxposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            No Aagilitymach...  your name does not do you justice in this respect.. ;-)
            do not be an idiot and expect to say "as a Christian, I think for myself... " since those two things are incompatible and contradictory .. now if you want to delude yourself that is fine.. good...well.. good luck with that but do not attempt to delude us as well... have nice day :-)

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               agilitymachposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               Yep.  You've proven you don't get it.  I'm very sorry for you. Just because someone believes differently than you does not make them "deluded."  I know it makes you feel better, but...
               
               Second, you've also proven you don't know what my name means.
               
               Two wrongs don't make a right.
               
               I'm bowing out now.  I've heard that HubPages forums - especially on politics and religion - are worthless.  Too bad.  A good, intellectual conversation would have been nice.  But once again - it's an "I'm right - so you're an idiot" discussion.  Before lowering myself anymore to that level, I'm out.
               
               Peace.

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                  Draxposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  there is no room for an intellectual discussion on religion since on one hand it is intellect and on the other is is blind faith...  I no not really have a position on feeling better or not, it is largely irrelevant how I feel..  But since I attended a lot of funerals of friends who were killed because of their religious beliefs I feel that I have the right to state my position and again I would reiterate it...
                  
                  you cannot simply say I am a christian and think for myself... one presupposes the other... it is like awareness of skin colour, (which is also totally irrelevant) if you know you are yellow or white or black then you have already prejudiced anything that you will say, this is simply a fact... now if you wish to withdraw all hurt then so be it... there is no future for any christian mumbo jumbo in any event... this story has no relevance in the world in which we inhabit...

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               JaxsonRaineposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               Are you seriously that small minded that you think all Christians are brain-washed?

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                  Draxposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  who are you talking to... ?  how does one become a christian... you woke one day you were about 19 and said oh great I must go and look at this christ stuff and lo... then a few weeks months later you were convinced it was true...  :-)

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                     JaxsonRaineposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                     Ah, so you think you have the story of every Christian figured out?
                     
                     I bet you can't even list the doctrine of all Christian faiths, so how do you think you know anything about them?

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                        Mighty Momposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                        Hey Jaxson.
                        Now that's an interesting accusation.
                        It appears you are expecting an intellectual grasp of not only one's own chosen (or learned by rote) Christian faith, but of ALL Christian faiths (?)
                        I'm not even sure a theology or religion studies major could provide that.
                        Are you saying that Drax should be able to cite the doctrine of
                        Roman Catholics
                        Esiscopalians
                        Baptists
                        Methodists
                        Presbytarians
                        Congregationalists
                        Dutch Reformed
                        Greek Orthodox
                        Russian Orthodox
                        Pentacostals
                        Evangelicals
                        LDS
                        7th Day Adventists
                        
                        I'm sure I'm leaving out a ton more Christian sects.
                        
                        Just asking for clarification of what you said.
                        NOT arguing with you or suggesting anything.
                        It's actually a very interesting concept -- assuming I've interpreted you correctly.
                        In fact, made me think that I should dust off my trusty catechism, as I'm certain I would not pass the pop quiz.
                        

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                           JaxsonRaineposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                           Yup, that's exactly what I'm saying. If he understands ALL Christians so well to know that they ALL are brainwashed.. it shouldn't be a problem.
                           
                           Oh, and you listed LDS as Christians... didn't you know that they aren't?

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                              Mighty Momposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                              That argument is definitely above my pay grade.
                              
                              But my pal Joel Osteen of Lakewood Church says they ARE Christians, so they are.
                              Besides, show me where in Bible where it says you can't have BOTH Jesus and an American prophet on your masthead?
                              See? I rest my case!

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                              PrettyPantherposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                              The word "brainwashed" conjures up all sorts of nasty images so I prefer to use the word "indoctrinated." 
                              
                              People once believed the world was flat because that is what they were taught, even though no real evidence existed.  You must realize that, to an nonbeliever, Christians appear to be brainwashed, er, I mean, indoctrinated.

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                                 JaxsonRaineposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                 Even if you don't agree with their beliefs, to say that they are incapable of thinking is just so...
                                 
                                 ugh, oh well

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                                    PrettyPantherposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                    Now, Jaxson, believing someone to be "indoctrinated" is not the same of accusing them of being incapable of thinking.  Come on, now, don't you want a serious discussion? 

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                                       JaxsonRaineposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                       I'm talking about drax...
                                       
                                       "do not be an idiot and expect to say "as a Christian, I think for myself... " since those two things are incompatible and contradictory .."

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   knolyourselfposted 10 years ago

   Maybe got to have sidewalks or else you are walking the mud. Me I prefer walk ways.

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      Mighty Momposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Not me. I prefer mud.
      Wanna rastle?
      

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         Draxposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         yep... :-)

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    knolyourselfposted 10 years ago

    I'll  rastle if you win, or is that no fun?

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    chatroomsposted 10 years ago

    I do believe politics is a lot like religion. The good side, the bad side, and there is lots of faith by people. I am in no ones side to be honest. Im in God's side and my vote is for God not men.

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    JaxsonRaineposted 10 years ago

    I'm on team Romney, and serious discussion is obviously a waste of time...
    
    So... that being said...
    
    

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       Mighty Momposted 10 years agoin reply to this

       ... as opposed to, let the good times roll. Let ths foreclosures happen. Let Detroit go bankrupt.
       The market will take care of itself.
       Want a job?
       It's going to take some time for me to cut all those pesky federal regulations.
       If you're in a hurry (like your unemployment benefits ran out)
       here's some cheery news: I just bought another factory in China. Perhaps you could apply there. It's not exactly what we Americans call "living wage" but room and board (you'll share with 11 other girls) included.
       

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          JaxsonRaineposted 10 years agoin reply to this

          Yeah, as opposed to... dump over 75 billion in un-returned taxpayer dollars into one company alone, and then let it go bankrupt.
          
          Lol, honestly, that's my favorite line from Romney critics... Romney + bankrupcty = bad. Obama + bankruptcy = good.

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    JaxsonRaineposted 10 years ago

    
    "Things were supposed to be better..."

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