Calling all Homosexuals!

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Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years ago
Do you think homosexuality should be advocated to the youth?
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  PrettyPantherposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I think freedom to love who you want, as long as it is between two consenting adults, should be advocated to our youth. Is that what you mean?
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  Hollie Thomasposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Kathryn, you make it sound like a choice. My son is gay. He's been beaten, spat at, abused, discriminated against, because of who and what he is. Do you honestly believe that gay men and women are gay because someone 'advocated' for gay rights?
  
  Absolutely I believe in gay marriage, relationships and if those men/women are reasonable and responsible adults who want to become parents, then they should have the same rights as hetro couples/singles.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  What age did he figure out this orientation?
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I think tolerance, self-esteem and love should be advocated to youth.
  
  Amazingly, when you find those three things in a person, they tend to believe in equality all on their own.
  
  Go figure.
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  Hollie Thomasposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  +1
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  Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Of course I am old and low in testosterone, than goodness. And I am no saint. But advocating any sexual preference, hinkiness, style or anything about it is weird. Rights for all is cool. Civil partnerships cool. But advocating sexual desires is not right. Just think how perverted that can make a society.
  A right based on a sexual preference is absurd. Is a 5 thousand year old tradition of man and woman sacrosanct -- hell no. But does it so far work the best -- yes.
  But advocating either style is as weird as advocating celibacy or bestiality.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  
  How do you equate persons loving each other, and sharing their lives together, with "kinkiness?" You have a weird outlook on life!
  
  Is the society in which you live so insecure that it is open to "perversion?" What makes you think two homosexual persons want to impart their particular loving life onto others?
  
  That's funny and ridiculous at the same time! Only 5000 years old? Sorry, I thought that sex and reproduction had been happening for many millions of years more than 5000! In that time, across numerous species, homosexual acts have take place, yet such acts have not caused any species to become extinct.
  There are many species now becoming extinct or severely threatened. Since the majority of people in the world are heterosexual, do you think we should blame it mostly on heterosexuals?
  
  You regard celibacy as weird? !!!!!!! I can see you have no intention of giving up your fun! Are you like some other preachers who have been caught out playing hypocrisy?
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  Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Buddy, you totally missed my point! I am a preacher of Love. I Love Love. I like puppy dogs that love and frosty snowflakes that love you when they fall on your face. I think the only God is LOVE and that love is God.
  
  Did you know male buffalo hump each other? Did you know that a child normally does not understand sex until at least eight? Did you know I thought dogs were boys and cats were girls until ten?
  
  My point is that sexual orientation is about as relevant as a favorite color. Legally who gives a damn. Good folks will prevail with government and taxes and insurance. Christians are backing off. The military is becoming not only color blind but sex blind.
  Buddy lighten your load. Love the one you are with. And most importantly love yourself.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Ok. Thanks. I was mistaken as to your motive there.... Load Lightened!
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Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years ago
What I am wondering is this:
The more being gay is accepted and the more prevalent it becomes as an accepted choice, will the percentage of homosexuals in general increase?

I was at a party over the weekend. It was held by a very well to do gay man. He had invited everyone he could think of to his house warming party. There were families, neighbors, his gay male friends, older people, younger people... a real hodgepodge of people! He had hired a band and there were hula hoops, glow sticks and a catered taco bar. Families were in the pool and dancing in front of the band. Suddenly his gay friends, males, started dancing very strangely with the hula hoops! I observed the effect on the kids... they watched, they copied and it all became a bit surreal. What were the kids absorbing as far as what men are like?
Childhood (0-6yrs.) is a time when everything in the environment is strongly absorbed into the psyche of the child.
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  Hollie Thomasposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Before going any further, I can't get over the fact that you still think it is a choice.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I am quite sure it sometimes is. quite sure. I witnessed a girl who professed to be lesbian, totally change her preference. Yep, she was a co-worker who would kiss her girlfriend in the halls where we worked. A couple years later I observed her... down in hollywood... with a guy, hanging on to him for dear life! I asked her if it was her boyfriend and she laughed and said, yes! (In her case, (according to her,) she had learned to be a lesbian in the army reserves.)
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  That would be bi-sexual. That's not a choice either.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  A friend of mine in high school had been quite the ladies man. Years later he called me up and invited me to his wedding... to a guy. We all knew what had influenced his change of preference... something bad had happened to him at a party during his college days. The incident totally affected his psyche.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Or he was a closeted gay in high school or he was BI.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Kathryn, all your presumptions are grounded in ignorance.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe it was the particular women in his life who badly affected his psyche. It takes two to tango!
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  Cody Hodge5posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I can't get past the fact that people think that gays will influence others to become gay...
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Iv'e seen it happen. Sex leads to love.
  If you do a little experimenting (like maybe because you were raised by two mommies or two daddies) and have sex with the same sex... oops, now your'e in love. This is because the sex center and the love center in the brain are right next to each other. It was designed that way by nature... why ? So that a couple would stay together to raise their offspring. Technically, If one has sex with a llama, one could fall in love with the llama. Sex is like a love potion! So, if you don't want to become gay... don't have sex with the same sex!
  Listen, I am just surmising here, (but, based on the true fact that the love center and the sex center are situated right next to each other in the brain.)
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  Jeff Berndtposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  It's an incidence of projection.
  
  The folks most afraid of gay people "recruiting" young folks into the gay lifestyle are the same folks who advocate so-called conversion "therapy" and "pray away the gay;" basically, brainwashing homosexuals into thinking they're straight.
  
  Of course, it doesn't really work, but that doesn't stop them from thinking that the gays will be able to convert straight people (just by being all sexy and fabulous, I guess?).
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  This reminds me of a public forum on TV some years back. A particular religiously emphatic man on the panel stated he wished people would stop trying to convey the idea that gay sex was better than straight sex.
  
  Another person on the panel asked him, "Would you like to explain to us how you have come to this understanding?"
  
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  EmpressFelicityposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, what *is* that "choice" thing about? "I know what - I think I'll be gay! I'll move to Brighton and indulge a new-found taste in home decor!" /sarcasm
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  If it is something that the parent finds inappropriate, then they should, I don't know, parent.
  
  It was their choice to have the children there. If they didn't have a problem with it, then it's quite frankly none of your business.
  
  However, you shouldn't expect other people to change how they act because someone else doesn't have a problem with their child being "exposed" to it.
  
  I, personally, wouldn't have brought my children to an adult party. Gay or straight. Adult things happen at adult parties.
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  Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Odd that he chose a taco bar.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Well, he had two hispanic gentlemen tending a very large wok. They were stir frying fish, beef and chicken and there was a table of with all the taco trimmings. Delicious!
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  Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  lol... sorry.. it was a bad joke... I couldn't help it.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  But, if people accept homosexuality across the board, then it will be hard to discriminate ever! The party was very fun for all and it was a daytime, afternoon into the night party. The adults were actually just fine with everything! If homosexuality is not a choice.. why should they worry? I just wonder if it really is a choice ... in the end...in many cases!
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  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Given that there are heterosexuals.
  
  Given that there are those, as you and Melissa both point out, that are BI and can go either way.
  
  Why so hard to understand that there are those that can only go one way - but not the way you go?
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Could you choose to be attracted to a woman?
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  well, the girl I worked with, (who you say was probably BI) seemed, on a level, to like freaking people out. She loved putting on a show.
  
  I actually had a dream (with all this talk of homosexuality, lately) about a girl coming on to me, but she had a u no what. I was so freaked out! ...and not to mention grossed out.
  I think I am becoming asexual!
  plus, I never know if guys are gay or not. I am starting to think of all of them as gay.
  Plus, many I am attracted to are gay! I love their clean houses and their creativity. I always think... what a waste of a good man!
  LOL.
  Sorry if this is TMI. It is therapeutic in a way. Thanks for your inputs... uh viewpoints.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  So that's a no?
  
  Yeah, I'm bi-sexual and can't control who I'm attracted to either. I guess no one can.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  There are many ways to express oneself and there's always the option of experimenting! Like Katy Perry was singing about! She kissed a girl and she liked it, remember?
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  "I think I am becoming asexual! " Oh wow! You are about to make a choice!
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Kathryn, what were you doing at that party? Are there some juicy bits of the BBQ that we should know about?
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Jonny: My friend and I were there because we know the band members and they invited us.
  Eric: The gentleman who put on the party was definitely Gay.
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  R Creighton Gposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  HA!
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  Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I probably should have just let it go eh?
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Kathryn, you don't "make" a homosexual person in that way. The children, if they get good, down-to-earth, factual information from adults, will learn to appreciate and respect differences among people.
  
  It's adults who can't handle the truth. If you can't talk with children honestly about the facts of life, without building heaps of guilt and shame in their minds, then you will be building the bad-ly adjusted child, regardless of their sexuality.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  If seeing men dancing with men at one party can turn a straight person gay, how come seeing men dancing with women pretty much everywhere else in the known universe doesn't turn gay people straight and keep them there?
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  And by that logic, almost every woman in America should be a lesbian.
  
  Girls dance with girls all the time. It's kind of a girl thing.
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  habeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  OMG, Mel - you have opened my eyes! I often dance with my girlfriends, so I must be gay. I'm not sure how my hubby is going to feel about this new revelation.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  And by that logic, almost every woman in America should be a lesbian.
  
  Girls dance with girls all the time. It's kind of a girl thing.
  
  Aha! So sexual orientation is a choice! It's all about who you're dancing with at the moment!
  
  Reminds me of an old joke.
  
  Q: Why are {insert repressed religious group here} against shagging while standing up?
  A: They fear it might lead to dancing.
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  Soul Man Dancingposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Ah yes! A classic. The original version, "Why are Baptists . . . "
  
  It came right after this one, " If you want to take a Baptist fishing, take two. Then they won't drink your beer."
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  Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Kathryn, How do you know the man was gay? How do you know I am hetero even though married with children. It just is wierd to go around classifying people by their preconceived sexual preference this week.
  
  I just met a Gay man with two male wives. They are all cared for along with about 20 cats, some snakes and a full pack of dogs, some birds and some fish. I swear he did not gay declare.
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  R Creighton Gposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  IF they were being sexually suggestive (you don't make it plain), then they shouldn't have been so in the presence of children, or adults who would object to it in those circumstances. I would say the same had they been a hetero couple, however. Being inappropriate is the issue there, not sexual orientation.
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  mythbusterposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  It might be that the kids were absorbing that hula hoops are fun at parties and that men as well as woman and children like hula hoops?
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  Uninvited Writerposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  That is too logical
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Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years ago
Has any one seen the movie "Quill?"
How about the movie, "The Red Guitar?"
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Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years ago
Also why is homosexuality on the increase? Way up (in the US) from the 70's!
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  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Is it up, or are just more coming "out of the closet"?
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  No, it's up! I see it here in So cal... its everywhere and way up from the 70's and 80's!!!
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  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  With the vast majority in the 70's hiding it, how can you tell?
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  They were hiding?! I refuse to believe that! Times have changed!
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  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Indeed they have. People aren't so willing to hide it anymore. More willing to demand acknowledgement that they are people too.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  -but, what if it does affect the youth??? You are telling me it won't? Should I call all those who have chosen homosexuality? Just kidding. If that is the truth... Good. That's all I 'm saying.
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  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  What if it does? Is there actual harm, outside of a minute decrease in the rate of overpopulation?
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  if you decide you are gay... it is no fun. It is agony.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yep. and that's why nobody decides to be gay.
  
  Duh.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  They have to deal with a lot of misunderstanding etc.
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  psycheskinnerposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Why do you think it is? I mean more people are out, but I bet the same proportion are gay.
  
  Just replace "homosexual" with "left handed" and the bizarreness of the questions this thread started with should be more obvious.
  
  Of course that used to be considered evil and forbidden too.
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Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years ago
I think I will stop calling for certain types of people. When I called for socialists, less than five answered. When I called for baby boomers, under twenty answered. Now, I have I called for homosexuals. None have answered! How come?
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Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years ago
Any way, we need statistics and research on this matter. I will look on the internet. Good Night.
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motricioposted 11 years ago
3. How will your life improve if you're allowed to be married?
- In my Country, homosexual partners are not allowed to have the same rights in a legal contract to extend benefits from health insurance or any other just because is not recognized as a legal union.

That is such a shame, you could lost your love one just because by law you can't provide him/her a decent health covering in a crisis or emergency. Is that fear to you?
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  It is all about the adults in this world isn't it? Never mind the negative effect it will have on children. Just never mind. Ask any child if they think two people of the same sex even just kissing is okay, they will instinctively say,
  " yuck."
  And like the tale of the Emperor's New Clothes ... it was a child who called out..."He's not wearing anything at all!"
  And I have worked with children my entire life. I have never seen a gay child.
  Ever.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Where on earth do you get your ideas from, Kathryn?
  You say you have never seen a gay child. Have you seen heterosexual children having heterosexual sex with other children?
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I have seen a three year old acting seductively toward other males other than her father... (probably absorbed it her mother! )
  There have been reports on the News about preschoolers having oral sex during nap time!... (Probably learned it from the movies their parents watch.)
  I know a boy who watched some gay guys getting it on at the park where he lived..( Santa Monica.)..
  and then tried out on my son!
  (they were both four years old and step cousins.)
  We caught them at it in the den during a family function!
  We did not make a big deal about it. Just quickly broke it up! ( I didn't know what to do or think... but it shows that Children do what they see.)
  Luckily, (for me,) my son had an attraction to girls!
  So did his step cousin who is married with his own little one now.
  I only report these things to show that children are indeed influenced by what is in their environment.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  And from that, is it not a problem for you in addressing sexuality however it arises? Is your religious background giving you a distorted fear of anything to do with sex? So much so that if you had to discuss matters of sex with your children, that would produce a great stress in your mind?
  
  Like you, I am just asking to aid my understanding
  
  Sorry, Kathryn, this should be addressed to Mark. Forgive my muddled old mind, lol.
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  "...a California preschool is shutting down as allegations surface that two 5-year-old girls were performing fellatio on fellow classmates while teachers turned a blind eye.
  
  On Tuesday, attorney Greg Owen filed a legal complaint against the First Lutheran Church of Carson School on behalf of one of six children involved in the disturbing alleged incidents."
  
  So, your sons sexual preferences are all about you, not him.
  
  Religious indoctrination is the environment of the preschoolers. lol
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  They will say that about anyone kissing.
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  Soul Man Dancingposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Like I said, "You have a good sense of humor."
  
  Touche'!
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  Jeff Berndtposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  "Ask any child if they think two people of the same sex even just kissing is okay, they will instinctively say,
  " yuck." "
  
  Yeah, and ask any child if they think two people of the opposite sex kissing is okay, and they will also instinctively say "yuck."
  
  Kids of a certain age think kissing is yucky, no matter who is kissing.
  
  In fact, I remember one of my preschool classmates telling us that he'd rather marry a boy, because girls are gross. We lost touch over the years, so I have no idea if he was actually gay or just thought girls were gross because he was four.
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jlparkposted 11 years ago
Kathryn, you called?

We may have come, but then your question was possibly mildly offensive, so we may not have answered straight away.

Advocating? Makes it sound like we had some choice in the matter. No one chooses to be spat on, beaten, raped, murdered, bullied, disowned, abandoned, or hated just for being gay. Who would choose that? Because that is the reality for many gay people - they live with (or die) every day.

Me, thankfully, I have accepting family, friends, in-laws, and co-workers. Did I choose to be gay? Nope. It's something I've never had a choice in - the choice comes in being PROUD of who I am, and REFUSING to let anyone get at that. I am who I was intended to be (by God or whoever) - I am as I was made.

Now, advocating homosexuality? Merely by being themselves???? Yet, you (being anyone..not you Kath) have NO PROBLEM with straight people practically having tongue sex in public, or at such parties, but suddenly several men start having fun with hula hoops and the kids follow them (cause...you know, hula hoops are fun!)...and it's advocating gayness??

Honey, it's not catching. Never has been, never will be. There are no more of us now than there was before - we're just prouder of our differences now, prouder to be who we are. There has been gay people since Roman times...though, I think they were more 'out' about it!! (and you think times have changed now!)

What we need to advocate is loving who you are. Regardless of sexual orientation, or what people think of said orientation - too many gay youth are dying by their own hand, because we as a society teach them that they are bad, awful, nasty people that should be ashamed to be thinking about the hot celebrity of their own gender. We need to advocate tolerance, and acceptance of difference. No one is going to become gay by hanging around with gay people (hell, if that were true, Kathryn, you'd be gay - I've watched these forums for a while - you like the LGBT topics! - And honey, even if you aren't - we accept you anyway).

Sorry this is long - I'm tired. And I get a little worked up when the so-called "bad" part of this was several homosexual men having fun with hula hoops (hell, who doesn't like a hula hoop?). When the part that you should be worked up about is that fact that it is STILL considered a bad thing, and THE ONLY thing that was focused on - not people having fun, but GAYS having fun in front of the children.

We need to accept and advocate self pride. Not loathing.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  How can boys grow up to be men if they don't have real men for role models?
  You think real men want their boys dancing around to the Grateful Dead (cover band) looped inside hoola hoops with each other?
  I do not like gayness. I wish it would stop, But Its fine for those who are gay and wish to marry each other. It is better for everyone for them to marry each other and be loyal... for many reasons.
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You may want to start lobbying the religious schools as they appear to be the ones creating 'gayness' lol
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  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  How do they grow up to be men? Without massive surgical intervention they don't have a choice - it will most definitely happen.
  
  But what is this "Real' men thing. As in real men don't eat quiche? You will now define what it means to be a "real" man based on your personal prejudices and history?
  
  When you begin to define sex based roles like that, using the past as a guide, you might want to think back to the old saying "barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen" - isn't that what a "real" woman is? Sounds very much like the pot/kettle thing to me.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  How can boys grow up to be men if they don't have real men for role models?
  
  You have a pretty twisted idea of what makes a "real man" if all it takes to be one is never dancing with another man at a party.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Dear ljpark:
  What age did you find an attraction to boys? I am not attracted to women. Is that how gays feel? Just not attracted to women? Or was it a definite attraction to males. Thanks for responding. I know it is not easy to be attracted to the same sex in our world. Don't you think it would be easier for you in this life if you were attracted to women?
  What happened?
  And I have heard of many women who went gay after years of being married to the same man! Don't tell me she was BI all along.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Kathryn, please help me to understand what your motive is here. Why are you putting these questions?
  
  Are you simply trying to educate yourself, and there advance your understanding/acceptance of homosexuality? If this is the case, I am quite happy to continue the dialogue with great respect to your enquiry. Mutual understanding is the key to a brighter, more loving future. (You will have seen my misunderstanding of Erik..... simply because I worked on presumption... my fault.)
  
  However, if it is your intention to bring us homosexual people to a point of wanting to change? If this is so, you will find no let up from me.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Gosh no! I just really wonder if the youth should be sheilded from the concept of homosexuality. I am concerned for the youth.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Shielding will not alter a person's sexual orientation, my dear Kathryn. You are only messing with a person's basic nature. In so doing you can drive a person to guilt and suicide. PLEASE don't do it.
  
  If there was one act which could be considered contrary to all that the man Jesus stood for, it is that.... meddling in another person's life because of your own belief system. You seem to think you are acting out of love... but nothing could be further from the truth.
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  That will never happen. The youth will find out one way or another and it's usually best if they find out from their parents who can explain things to them (not from the bible) reasonably and rationally.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Well, considering that the hetero norm is heavily enforced throughout popular culture, most of the movies have straight couples getting together, all the relationship tips in the women's magazines are about "How to please your man" or "What men really want" and the ones in the men's magazines are about "Understanding women" or "What women want in bed," and even the earliest tales we tell our kids are about handsome knights and beautiful princesses getting married and living happily ever after, and most adult couples are heterosexual, how the heck do you reach the conclusion that merely acknowledging that some people are gay will somehow influence kids to become gay themselves?
  
  Seriously, how can just telling a kid "Gay people exist. There aren't many of them, but they exist, and it's not okay to be mean to them." overcome the overwhelming cultural affirmation of the hetero norm that we get bombarded with from the minute we're born?
  
  Hell, if your theory about "influence" making people turn gay had a shred of validity to it, there would be no gay people, because the overwhelming influence in our society is in favor of heterosexuality, not the other way 'round.
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  jlparkposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Kathryn - the thing is, I'm a gay WOMAN. So, I'm not attracted to men AT ALL.
  
  I have never been attracted to men, never will be, and nor do I want to sleep with one. I don't remember ever choosing it, it just was. All my friends were attracted to boys and I could not see what the big deal was. Though, to be honest, at the time, I wasn't attracted to anyone. I've since figured out that when a good looking woman is straight, I don't see her in any other light than a friend and at a public all-girls school, I had a lot of straight friends!
  
  I cannot comment on what it is like for gay men, as I am not one.
  I can also not comment on what it is for women who have left men to be with women, as this is not my experience. For me to comment on this, would be like you assuming that your heterosexual experience was the SAME experience for every single heterosexual woman.
  
  If it was about influence, I would be straight. My parents are, my 7 female siblings are. I'm not. I'm pretty much a poster child for the "Born this Way" side of things.
  
  WHat happened? Nothing. Nothing at all. I was made this way. By God, or Allah, or Buddha, or the Goddess or The Great Spaghetti Monster - which ever God or Goddess one believes in (or doesn't). I just am.
  
  A real man would love his child REGARDLESS of who he loved. A real man would support his child in all he wanted to be. A real man would dance in a hoola hoop if it made his kid happy, not caring what the rest of the world thought. Unfortunately, you don't get to see many real men - because the 'real' men of this world seem to be the ones who would disown, beat, threaten to kill their child if their child DARED to be gay. At least they like to say that they're "real" men. They're nothing but bullies and weaklings to me.
  
  A couple of men having fun with a hoola hoop is not going to make children gay. What if those men were ACTUALLY straight? Would you have an issue with two men having fun then?
  If you say no - it is YOU with the problem, not them.
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Mark Ewbieposted 11 years ago
I have a friend who I think is gay. He sometimes puts on Grateful Dead music and invites me to join him in his hoola hoop. Up till recently I have resisted, saying I don't really like that sort of thing.

The other day he was insistent and got his hoola hoop out again.

"I am not going in there" I said.

"Oh come on" he said, "We can do the Grateful Dead dance together"

Well. At first I wasn't sure but once we started swaying in time to the hairy music I started to relax. As he held me in his hoola hoop I felt comforted. It was like a circle of trust - with me on the inside.

I am not a homosexual by trade. It is something which I find distasteful and shocking - an outrage against decent family values. As I drove home that night, listening to the Grateful Dead and toying with the hoola hoop he had lent me, I wondered if I had got it all wrong.

I haven't told my wife about this. She prefers the Eagles.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Surely it's coercion that you are talking about..... not homosexuality. Sexual coercion is unwanted sexual advance. It tries to control you for that other person's ulterior purposes.
  
  You have a the right to say a firm NO.
  
  Don't be afraid of the homosexuality.
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  Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Haha, does no one get Marks humor?
  It's ok, no one got my joke either.
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  habeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, I got your joke, Beth. You naughty girl!
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  Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  lol... sadly I feel better now.
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  JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I think I remember that one, and yes I got it. Just didn't want to bring it to anyone's attention that might not get it and then be offended.
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  Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Ppl are easily offended.
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  JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I'm offended when people talk about babies like they are psychopaths...
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  Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I love the babies so much.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Babies are psychopaths. They lack empathy, they are completely self-absorbed, they lack responsible behavior, they show no remorse for the pain they cause their parents, they live a parasitic lifestyle, have superficial charm and are impulsive.
  
  Pretty much text-book psychopaths.
  
  Isn't it interesting that we all start like that?
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  R Creighton Gposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Well-said, couldn't agree more. Adorable little savages. Embrace them, love them, don't turn your back for a second!
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  Soul Man Dancingposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You mean sociopaths.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  hilarious!
  Peace.
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  PaulGoodman67posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Mark - You have excelled beyond your own, already high, standards of humour with this!
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  Mark Ewbieposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks Paul! It was the earlier inspiration in this thread - Grateful Dead and hula hoops!? - that got me thinking.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  
  Did you know: a lot of powerful people throughout history have actually been mice?
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  R Creighton Gposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  He'd have had me at "Truckin'"
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peeplesposted 11 years ago
Some of these statements are just crazy. Can someone choose to be Gay? Well of course they can. But lets think about this for a minute. If someone does "choose" to be gay and they aren't really gay they will be miserable after a short time. Someone can love someone all they want but if they are not being sexually satisfied they WILL end up miserable. There also seems to be some misconception that people can't be bisexual. So a guy is a ladies man in school and ends up marrying a man. If he was sexually attracted to both he was bisexual or he did the ladies man thing to keep from getting picked on and mistreated.
From my youngest memories I was "attracted" (read little kid crushes) to both sexes. I never turned anyone gay. I also have a family member who's son is gay and has been since a very young age. I have taught my children that it is okay no matter what they like. Aside from answering questions when they ask they are not at the age to fully explain things to them, but when they are of age to fully explain I will tell them that we are to be kind to everyone, love everyone, and treat others how we would like to be treated. I will teach my boys that it is no ones business what others do. We are all human and really need a lesson or two about how to treat others.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  ++++ Beautiful words.
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  Soul Man Dancingposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  To beautiful people . . . every one.
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psycheskinnerposted 11 years ago
I am resisting the urge to make an echo thread saying all the crap on here but about Christians. I can;t 'do it because I know a lot of nice Christians and a recent poll showed US Catholics are more supportive of gay marriage than non-Catholics. So it can't be the religion making some people bigots. Maybe they are just born that way.
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  Soul Man Dancingposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Just because someone is opposed to unnatural acts does not make them bigots. It makes them wise.
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  psycheskinnerposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Unless someone is making them take part in the activities, it makes them bigots.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Good one! ^
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psycheskinnerposted 11 years ago
I think it is sad feel feel free to condemn fellow hubbers in this way.
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  Soul Man Dancingposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  No one is condemning anyone by sating the natural truth about life in general, never mind specifically Hubbers.
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  LOL. Is that what you think you're doing?
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  Soul Man Dancingposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  No creature in nature mates with a member of the same sex. It is contrary to what is natural. That is the truth.
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  JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Wrong. Very wrong. Not only do other species engage in homosexual intercourse, other species also form life-long homosexual partnerships, and some even adopt and raise offspring.
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  Soul Man Dancingposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Name one.
  
  Don't say Dolphins, I know them well. That is not homosexual activity, it is a display of male prowess and a "relationship" does not ensue outside of a pod partnership to collect females and allies.
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  JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  How about... 100ish?
  
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_an … l_behavior
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Nice link that, thank you. Even in the first few lines it talks about "Observer Bias."
  
  Soul Man, please note.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Mallard ducks, dolphins, female wolves... those are off the top of my head.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  In addition, there are several species of animals spontaneously change sex to reproduce...
  
  So, either evolution created transexual animals (which means God didn't) or God created transexual animals (therefore deciding it was perfectly "natural")
  
  So that pretty much wraps it up, the animal kingdom is all about GLBT.
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  Soul Man Dancingposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  There is a lot of that going around.
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  Soul Man Dancingposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  1. Not
  
  2. Not
  
  3. Not (as previously stated)
  
  Look, you can try to interpret these animal behaviors as equivalent to human sexuality, but you will just be wandering around in fog trying to justify the unnatural.
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Ah yes, the denial begins.
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  Soul Man Dancingposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Look, you can try to interpret these animal behaviors as equivalent to human sexuality, but you will just be wandering around in a fog trying to justify the unnatural.
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  We can all see who is wandering around in a fog, trying to justify their claims.
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  Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Covering your ears and shouting, "NOPE NOPE NOPE YOU'RE WRONG NOPE NOPE NOPE," is not how you refute a fact. You refute facts with scholarly evidence, not wanton denial.
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  Soul Man Dancingposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  The fact is that no creature mates with members of the same sex. You are the one in extreme denial of natural law. Ask any Native American who has not lost their touch. It just isn't right.
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  Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Ah, yes. Ask the people who were nearly wiped out because of white Christians. I'm sure they'll have a glowing appraisal of Christian doctrine.
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  JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Bison have been observed with full anal penetration, if that's what you care about so much. So have dolphins. So have many others. Many of these species I referenced stay together for life.
  
  So, what do you call it if two males have homosexual intercourse, stay together for life, and raise offspring together?
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  Soul Man Dancingposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Anal penetration is not something that I care so much about. Who is it that observed this behavior? Dophins . . . .I already addressed that. Many others? I swear, City folks believe anything.
  
  I'll meet you in the "Hollow Earth" for lunch. Hold a table until I get there.
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Then, what is your point?
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  JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You don't care about anal penetration, but you claim that no animals mate with the same sex? What exactly do you mean by mate then?
  
  These acts have been observed by dozens or hundreds of researchers over the last hundred years.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Anal penetration is not my "thing," either, and I am gay. So, what is your problem Soul Man?
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  Soul Man Dancingposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Anal penetration? Problem? The problem is that homosexuality is not natural. The animal behaviors mentioned here do not equate with human sexual deviance. Female wolves do not have sex with each other. They live in a pack together. Male Bison, and other bovine species will hump a male. A dog may do the same, but it is not for sexual gratification. It communicates dominance.
  
  Now, I know that many have been given over to act out of their unnatural desire for members of the same sex. Of course, it will be hard for them to penetrate denial and break the chains of their bondage.
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Or, more precisely, you've been indoctrinated by your religion to believe such things.
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  JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Why are you ignoring me?
  
  What do you call two male or two female animals who have sex with only each other, live together for life, and raise offspring together?
  
  You're willfully ignorant, or dishonest. Those are the only two possibilities.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Well then, can't argue with that logic.
  
  I'll just go ahead and ignore you now until you are banned again.
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  JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  2: "Sexual encounters between females take the shape of "beak-genital propulsion", where one female inserts her beak in the genital opening of the other while swimming gently forward.[71] Between males, homosexual behaviour includes rubbing of genitals against each other, which sometimes leads to the males swimming belly to belly, inserting the penis in the others genital slit and sometimes anus."
  
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual … e_dolphins
  
  I guess we should just say that when humans do stuff like that, it's just 'bond formation' right?
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I would call that "Jet Propulsion" if it happened to me!
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Soul Man Dancing, the thing that makes me human is that I can enjoy something and talk about it to others. I will choose, in partnership with another person if, when and where we have some fun together. I suspect the same choice is made by "other animals," but they can't talk to you and me about it.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Melissa, if they were over your head, you had better watch out !!!!
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  In THIS house... TODAY? Could happen.
  
  I have a purple cat, red hardwood floors and a child missing most of the front portion of her hair.
  
  It's been that kind of day.
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  Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  lol. Im so sorry.
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  Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Bison, brown bears, caribou, house cats, elephants, foxes, koalas, orcas, emus, king penguins, ravens, bluegill sunfish, salmon, bearded dragons, broad-headed skinks, desert tortoises, blowflies, digger bees...shall I keep going?
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  Jeff Berndtposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Well, there's these two gay flamingos who have adopted a baby together.
  
  From the article: "Gay flamingos are not particularly rare and enjoy an elevated status with their choice of partner."
  
  I wonder if flamingos are more or less likely to be gay than other birds?
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  No, that is an argument from incredulity.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You mean it's a lie.
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Careful Jeff, we are being accused of personal attacks when we point out obvious lies.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  That wasn't a personal attack.
  
  "That's a lie." attacks the post.
  
  "You're a liar." attacks the poster.
  
  It's entirely possible for someone to post a lie without being a liar:
  He could just be mistaken.
  He could be repeating something a liar told him, because he believed the liar to be telling the truth for whatever reason.
  He could genuinely believe that the false statement he just made is really a true statement.
  
  There's all kinds of reasons someone could post untrue things without being a deliberate liar.
  Just because someone's not a deliberate liar, however, doesn't mean it's okay for them to post things that aren't true, or that they should expect people not to call them on their false statements.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  No, not truth.... just your perception (which you are entitled to have, but not to be presented as truth).
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  psycheskinnerposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  http://www.amazon.com/Biological-Exuber … im_sbs_b_1
  
  Might be edifying reading for someone who thinks animals are never homosexual.
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JaxsonRaineposted 11 years ago
In before he comes back and says none of those are 'really' homosexual activity.

Lol, on another forum, I had two different people say that unless someone has close-up shots of actual penetration, it's not gay. Just made me wonder why they were so concerned with seeing close-up, detailed photographs of gay animal sex
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  Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Not to mention how "male animal routinely humps other male animal" could be construed as anything but homosexual intercourse.
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JaxsonRaineposted 11 years ago
And why should we ask a Native American? When did they become the source of scientific knowledge?
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  Soul Man Dancingposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Do not advertise ignorance.
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  JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  So, Native Americans have done more study on dolphins that live around Madagascar than anybody else?
  
  And more study on Penguins at the South Pole than anybody else?
  
  See where I'm going with this? How are Native Americans supposed to know more about nature than anybody else?
  
  Also, why won't you address any of my other points?
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  Soul Man Dancingposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Penguins! That's a stretch.
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  Soul Man Dancingposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Native Americans know the "Ways of the Animals" beyond the reach of modern scientific study.
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  That is one of the funniest things I've read today. Thanks for the laugh.
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  JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Lol. I see, so you just know about animals, even if you have never seen them.
  
  So, when two male dolphins have intercourse(genitalia in anus), that's not sex(even though it is by definition)... so what is it?
  
  What about when two bison do it?
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  JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Soul Man Dancing
  
  What do you call it when two male animals spend their life together, raise offspring together, engage in sexual acts with each other and nobody else, and build a home together?
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  - where did those offspring come from?
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  JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Sometimes they adopt a young one who loses its parents. Sometimes they actually have a surrogate mother, or in the case of females, one of the females will have intercourse with a male then go back to her mate.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Her MATE??? what species are you referring to???
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  JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, her mate. Lifelong, same-sex mate. It happens in mammals, birds, fish, I haven't read up on all of them but there is a great resource that lists over 500 species you could probably find at any large library.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks for not much, J.R.
  And I still hope they keep the penny.
  LOL.
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  JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I posted a listing of over 100 species earlier. If that's not good enough for you, go to Google and search for homosexual behavior animals. Search for homosexual mates animals. Go learn, I can't do it for you.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  So anyway...
  
  What kind of beer do you like?
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  JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  
  I'm not really a big fan of alcohol, was raised 100% without it, but I'm starting to like wine and cheese
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I have a friend who is a wine connoisseur, he spoiled this country girl.
  
  I'll never drink Boone's strawberry hill again.
  
  But a nice Blackberry Merlot? I'm mush.
  
  I drink maybe once a year. Since I won't drink in front of the kids or have it in the house while they are here... and I get babysitters only when I give birth to another kid, obviously my opportunities are limited.
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  JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Lol, time for you to get pregnant again... just make sure you find a hospital with wine on the menu.
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  JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/14479670
  
  Here's one for you, since you can't be bothered to do your own research. Zebra finches mate for life with the same sex.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Really? Cool. Then you can relax, because lots of Native Americans are cool with same-sex partnerships.
  
  I love the sound of a bigoted argument falling to pieces, don't you?
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  @ Jeff! This is very revealing.. One can understand the concept of "two spirited people".. that makes a lot of sense. After all, in reality, we are both male and female. One is usually more dominant. In Some men the feminine attributes/expressions/manifestations are more dominant. In Some women the male attributes/ expressions/manifestations are more dominant.
  So homosexuality IS actually a myth!
  ...as in opposites ultimately attract.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  In Some men the feminine attributes/expressions/manifestations are more dominant. In Some women the male attributes/ expressions/manifestations are more dominant.
  So far so good, but you haven't yet explained why a man in which the feminine manifestation is more dominant would be attractive to (or attracted to, take your pick) another man in which the masculine manifestation is more dominant.
  
  According to your "Opposites Attract" model, a gay man and a lesbian would be ideally suited to each other. But that ain't the case in real life.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Take your own advice.
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peeplesposted 11 years ago
UnNATURAL things heterosexuals do every day that wild animals don't. Get breast implants, have anal sex; male's sucking their female partner's nipples, toe fetish, foot fetish, butt fetish, leg fetish, (every fetish) dildos, dying hair, shaving, having sex just for fun, oral sex, using fingers to pleasure partner, porn, and the list could go on and on!
I suppose that all you people against homosexuality are against all things that are done very little or not at all in the animal kingdom that heterosexuals do. I'm just sure that you have done nothing on that list and have led a very boring life.
Now I can hope I don't get my first ban for this but some of you are just plain out hypocrites!!! Yell "it's not natural" all you want, but remember the next time you want oral or the next time you want some fun time with your straight partner that you are no damn different!!!
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  R Creighton Gposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Godz, now I'm all hot.
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  peeplesposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I know. Hard to write all that without having at least one dirty thought!
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I do not get yer point at all. Human homosexuality has has nothing to do the animal kingdom. Some want to go there... why?
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  peeplesposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  "Some want to go there... why" Did I miss the part where you asked the person who brought it up in this thread this? I have no idea why people against homosexuality want to compare to animals. This is a common issue among those who can't figure out how to live and let live.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  They want to say homosexuality is "unnatural" because animals don't do it.
  
  Which is funny because animals do.
  
  Then they want to say that it's a sign of aggression in animals.
  
  Which sometimes it is, just like sometimes it is in humans (rape) but sometimes is used for status gain (like with humans) and sometimes is used just for enjoyment (like humans).
  
  They are going back on the "God didn't want it to happen, that's why animals don't do it"
  
  (See point ones and two)
  
  And seem to think that by proving that animals don't procreate by homosexual sex that means it is against the natural order... which assumes that all sex in nature is for procreation (which it isn't) and only humans have sex for other reasons.
  
  They seem to lack even the slightest knowledge of human sexual behavior (which would explain why they have giant sticks up their arse) and are applying their ignorance to animal sexual behavior in general.
  
  It's fun to watch.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  It's fun to watch.
  It would be a lot more fun to watch if the same people weren't trying to enforce their bigoted attitudes on the rest of society.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  True enough.
  
  But they are going to be ignorant whether we laugh at them or not. So why not laugh?
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Why? Because humans ARE animals.
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Beth37posted 11 years ago
I think we can all agree that most of these animals are quite tasty.
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You eat dolphins?
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  Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  for breakfast.
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I eat newborn babies, roasted on a spit. I wonder if they taste similar to dolphins/
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  Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You're such a d*ck.
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  No, I'm not a duck, or a deck, or a dock.
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  Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  keep trying.
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I know you're calling me a dick.
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  Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Doh!
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  JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  GTFO
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  habeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Nah...like chicken!
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  Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  lol. I have eaten Emu, giraffe, and a few other weird ones... I cant remember. It was at a restaurant in Africa called the Carnivore. Oddly enough, the chicken tasted the best.
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  habeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  The worst flesh I've ever tasted is bear. Ugh.
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  Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Better them than you.
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  habeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed. Most southerners will *taste* just about anything if the *item* is slathered in ranch dressing...or so I hear.
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  Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I think it's gravy not ranch... and don't forget to slap a biscuit on the side.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Must have been an ostrich, unless you were in Ozzyland by mistake, then it could have been Emu. (The female form of Email.)
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  JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  really habee?
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  habeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not actually sure. I don't think Jonathan Swift addressed the flavor in his famous satire.
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  JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not actually sure, that just seems to be a disgusting topic whether it is satire or not.
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jenniferrpoveyposted 11 years ago
I'm bad. I did not read this entire thread before replying, but I wanted to address one thing Kathryn said.

She said she knew a woman who "went gay" after being married to a man for 16 years followed by "don't tell me she was bi all along."

I get very tired of people who do not understand what it means to be bisexual.

I am a bisexual woman. I am 39 years old. I have been married to a man for...oh, interesting coincidence there...almost 16 years.

I did not "become" straight because I chose a male life partner. If he died or we split up and my next partner was a woman I would not "become" gay.

Bisexual people, male or female, experience sexual attraction to both sexes. We are capable of forming pair bonds with both sexes (like ALL people, we vary in the strength and lasting nature of the pair bonds we form).

There's a common...and annoying...myth that being bisexual means that we can't be content with one partner. There are bisexual men and women who are not content with one partner - just as there are heterosexuals and homosexuals who can't settle down either. We don't have some kind of special "need" for sexual contact with both sexes.

It is not a choice - although bisexuals do have the advantage of being able to "choose" to be straight or gay by seeking mates of one sex or the other. Doing so does not make us not bisexual any more. Being married to a man does not stop me from appreciating an attractive woman (often, for some reason, the same attractive women my husband is simultaneously appreciating - there's probably some psychological thing in there, but...)

So, yes, the person you knew probably was bisexual all long - just somebody well wired for long-term, exclusive relationships. Somebody like me.

Jeff Berndt - I'm going to briefly address the flamingo thing.

Constitutional homosexuality (choosing a mate of the same sex) among males is seen in all pair bonding species of birds, but seems to be more common in water birds. The highest rates are seen in certain species of geese. Amongst these geese, it is common for a pair to form a male bond, and then for one of them to have sex with an unpaired female, who provides the eggs for them to raise! (Yup. Birds practicing homosexual marriage and surrogacy).

Situational homosexuality - having sex with a member of the same sex because you're just that horny and there isn't a member of the opposite sex available - has been observed in pretty much all animals...including humans. Cultural situational homosexuality - having sex with the same sex because your society expects it - has been observed in some human cultures and amongst chimps and bonobos.

...gah. That wasn't briefly, was it.
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  R Creighton Gposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Brief or not, it was well worth the read.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Jennifer,
  Why did you suffer through 16 years with a man, I wonder. You are probably very creative and imaginative. You can express the hidden side of the dual nature of the soul. You are in touch with "both spirits."
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jenniferrpoveyposted 11 years ago
I've eaten emu in the United States, so it's not impossible...emu is a bit fattier and tastes a bit more like duck. And that's SO off topic.
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Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years ago
God led me to this quote by Henry Miller: (I had asked for understanding regarding this matter.)

"The world is not to be put in order. The world is order. It is for us to put ourselves in unison with this order."

I thought it was very appropriate: A message to me in particular, perhaps. I believe Soul Man Dancing, for one, will understand it in its true light and accept it in that light.
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  And, how exactly did God lead you to that quote? Please explain.
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Brenda Durhamposted 11 years ago
Two male animals or two female animals are what they are--------animals.
Humans aren't animals.
That's a basic biological fact that one would think every human would know........
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  BTW If two same sex animals are raising their offspring, how was their offspring conceived????
  One of them snuck off and had a good time with another of the opposite sex. Gasp!
  Unless they know how to artificially inseminate.
  Do They?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  
  Good argument for straight relations.
  I guess animals can behave like humans sometimes too.
  'Tis a shame the poor creatures have been painted as total heathens by the Left!
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yes... and they love each other during the mating process. LOVE between animals? Is there proof?
  My dogs are very loving creatures.
  of course, they are also, jealous, possessive and greedy.
  They are also protective and enthusiastic.
  They have joy of life.
  
  Like children do.
  That is what must be protected in animals and children.
  I think homosexuality is a burden on the soul of children. Even the new Pope has declared that homosexuals should not raise children.
  Anyway that's my view point.
  Each to their own.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  There's no proof there's love between humans.
  
  And your viewpoint is wrong.
  
  Bigots are a burden on children. Homosexuality? Not a chance.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not Catholic, but I do highly respect that Church's stance on two issues-------the right to Life, and the defense of traditional marriage.
  But there are a lot of Catholics who defy those basic laws.
  Go figure.
  
  You said that well------homosexuality is a burden on the souls of children. I've never heard it put quite that way before, and you're totally correct!
  
  As far as the animals........I think they do have a certain capacity for love. Animal love, that is, and a certain capacity to bond with humans in a form of affection. But I think mainly the mating process is just that----an instinctive process for survival of their species. I mean, really, it ain't a purty sight if you've ever happened to see it...........haha
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Do you follow everything the Pope declares, or cherry pick just what you personally believe based on your religious indoctrination?
  
  Perhaps, when the Pope begins to look in his own backyard as to how his organization treats children, especially young boys, then we can give his declarations a bit of notice and possibly some credibility.
  
  The Pope is definitely one of the last people on earth to comment on how to raise children.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Nope. Just those who have never read a science book...ever...would know humans aren't animals.
  
  Those of us that were educated above the third grade level know we are primates.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Humans aren't animals.
  That's a basic biological fact that one would think every human would know.....
  
  Do you get paid to post incorrect information? Or do you genuinely believe the ignorant twaddle you've been spouting?
  
  Humans are animals. Our species is Homo Sapiens. We're in the order Primate, in the class Mammal.
  
  Anybody with the most basic grasp of biology understands this.
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  Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Quick! Which branch of the animal kingdom is characterized by high intelligence, complex social structures, and opposable digits?
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Oh look, Brenda, here's a site for children, who ask if humans are animals...
  
  "Scientists describe virtually everything that is alive as animal or plant. So, if you're not a plant then you are an animal! In fact, you are a specific kind of animal called a mammal. Know what you all have in common? Your mothers have breast milk that can feed young; you have hair or fur; and you are born live instead of inside an egg or case! In fact, human mammals are born not only alive -- but kicking and screaming!"
  
  http://kids.discovery.com/tell-me/anima … ed-animals
  
  By your logic, Brenda, we are all plants.
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Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years ago
My dogs will occasionally hump anything... stuffed animals (as puppies,) each other, other dogs of the same sex at the dog park... it doesn't matter to them... they are just having fun and they don't seem to know any better... maybe cuz they're neutered. I don't know.
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Well done, admitting you don't know how that works is the first step to recovery.
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  Soul Man Boogieposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You should follow suit.
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Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years ago
So, then... are there recorded cases of homosexuality in primates??? Jane?
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Obviously.
  
  Do try to keep up.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  links?
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Well, every gay person in this thread is a primate.
  
  Oh you mean non-human primates?
  
  Google it yourself. Start with the bonobo.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks for this info, Melissa!
  But, I read that sex with the dominant female is for the purpose of elevating status and is associated with aggression for that purpose.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  No you didn't.
  
  If you read any of the first 100 articles that come up on google for homosexuality in the bonobo, then you read that it's anything but aggressive.
  
  Nice try though.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I certainly did!
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  That's interesting, that you read the exact opposite of what every article I can find says.
  
  How neat.
  
  Your google skills must be Godly.
  
  This is what I read
  
  "The entire species is bisexual. Sex plays an conspicuous roll in all their activities and takes the focus away from violence, which is the most typical method of solving conflicts among primates and many other animals."
  
  Which would be the OPPOSITE of aggression.
  
  I just did opposite and same activities with my 4 year old... would you like the worksheets?
  
  Edit: Here's another one:
  
  "Sex functions in conflict appeasement, affection, social status, excitement, and stress reduction. It occurs in virtually all partner combinations and in a variety of positions. This is a factor in the lower levels of aggression seen in the bonobo when compared to the common chimpanzee and other apes."
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Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years ago
And I have heard of parrots when cooped up in the same cage... same sex... one will take the role of the opposite sex.
Isn't that what humans do?

Inside the relationship of the homosexual... one of them p r e t e n d s to be the feminine one, with gays... or the masculine one, with lesbians...
R I G H T ?

Maybe true homosexuality is a MYTH !!!
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe heterosexuality is a myth...
  
  It is quite possible that all humans are bi-sexual and those who claim not to be are in denial.
  
  Once again, see bonobo. The entire bonobo sub-species is bi-sexual. They are one of our closest relatives.
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  jlparkposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  COMPLETE Myth - Gay couples do NOT have to conform to the "masculine/feminine" stereotype.
  
  I know of plenty of fem/fem lesbian couples, butch/butch lesbian couples, and a few fem/butch couples.
  
  Asking a gay couple who is the man, and who is the woman is like asking which chopstick is the fork.....it doesn't work like that. AND it doesn't need to.
  
  Being called a myth is a little insulting. We've been answering your questions, not insulting you. We aren't going anywhere.
  
  Re: homosexuality in animals:
  http://www.amazon.com/Biological-Exuber … 031225377X
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Anyway... what ever the case... it is all in the mind of the individuals involved. It is their business... just keep it discreet around the kids.
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psycheskinnerposted 11 years ago
Telling gay people they are a myth... well, that's kind of presumptuous. But knock yourself out. I don;t think they can be wished away just because some people would find the world tidier that way.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  If one takes on a submissive or feminine position... it is not truly homosexual!
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  - Its all in the mind... just like heaven!
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  JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Really? So two gay men, one who plays the role of a 'wife', aren't really gay?
  
  So what, one guy says 'I'm the woman' and he morphs into a woman?
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  Jeff Berndtposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, it's like those frogs that can spontaneously change sex in a single-sex environment, and then they used their gay-frog genes to clone those dinosaurs and they engineered them all female, but their gay-frog genes let them get gay-dinosaur-married and reproduce anyway and then they gay-ate all those people on that gay island.
  
  Clearly, gay people will eat everyone if we let them get married.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  To the powerful, go the spoils.
  but, note to the powerful...
  
  We are all in this together.
  (Here in America, anyway.)
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  Soul Man Dancingposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Right.
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  JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Goodness, the ignorance is astonishing.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  its all in the mind isn't it?
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  - at the heart of the matter we are all asexual! or maybe neutral: a combination of male and female...
  I know Leonardo Da Vinci played around a lot with this truth....
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  "Don't play what's there... Play what's not there."
  Miles Davis
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  "Attention comes from nowhere. It has no cause. It belongs to no one. When it functions effortlessly, there is no duality."
  Toni Packer
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  "The need is not to amputate the ego, but to transcend it."
  Norman Cousins.
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  JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Lol, what are you spouting?
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  Soul Man Dancingposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Hold on now, not so fast. Forget the DaVinci myths. We are not asexual.
  
  Look, I have had my days of exploratory pondering and embracing what-ifs, but at the end of the day, it all becomes reality based, like it or not. You are either male or female, genetic anomaly (freak of nature) notwithstanding.
  
  Gender confusion in our society is due to the fact that we are confined to captivity in a prison of concrete, steel and glass. We are not in tune with the natural world. It is very sad. It is too dark to see. We grope along the wall and implore others to follow.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  - no, it is quite true that our souls are a combination of male and female. In the typical male, male traits are dominant. In the typical female, feminine traits are manifesting. But, Soul Man... what about the atypical? They wake up day after day and they cannot change their sexual orientation. Perhaps they were the opposite sex in their last life?
  Some say that Mona Lisa was a self-portrait.
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  Soul Man Dancingposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  No, no. Our souls are neither male nor female. Save it for the tourists.
  
  Obviously, you do not know your way around the astral plane as well as I do.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Of course they are! It is beyond reason, to say the soul is neither. On the causal level we become one...or neutral.
  And that of course, is our ultimate goal.
  
  Children are growing their psyches from birth to six and should not be bombarded with concepts regarding sexuality at all. They are from the astral realms and have very high levels of consciousness and are developing (through a process of incarnation) their bodies and minds (along with nature). As far as I have understood.
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  Soul Man Dancingposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Casual? Neutral? You are guessing about something that I already know . . . the exact opposite of neutral.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Causal
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  That wouldn't be an understanding, that would be an embraced fantasy.
  
  Rather than worry about those children being "bombarded with concepts regarding sexuality", we should be far more worried about children being bombarded with religious beliefs that cause people to believe such ridiculous nonsense.
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  Ralph Deedsposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  +++
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  JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I've heard that you can view reality through the astral plane, is that true?
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  What is true is that on the astral plane there is no sex! LOL! enjoy it now while you can! What ever gets you through your life... Just keep it discreet around the kids... OK?
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  Soul Man Dancingposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  There is no astral plane. I was testing you.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  - of course there is... The astral realm is what Jesus was referring to when He talked about the " many mansions" in His "Fathers house!" (-where souls of similar natures hang out in between lifetimes.)
  TWISI
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  JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  No, the astral plane is a frequency that all intelligence can tap into. It's like a dream that can be shared and have real effects. If you can connect with another intelligence in the Astral Plane, you can share all information instantly.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  That too.
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  PrettyPantherposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  JaxsonRaine wrote: No, the astral plane is a frequency that all intelligence can tap into. It's like a dream that can be shared and have real effects. If you can connect with another intelligence in the Astral Plane, you can share all information instantly.
  
  Kathryn L Hill wrote: That too.
  
  I think someone needs to do some more tapping.
  
  But, on a more serious note, what are people who spend a lot of time praying, but are filled with hate and bigotry, tapping into? (I'm thinking Westboro Baptist Church, for example)
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  Jeff Berndtposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You're all wrong: the Astral PLane is what Richard Branson uses to travel back and forth from his subterranean lair under the volcano to his orbiting mind control satellite.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Ok..... but where's the Virgin?
  
  Sorry to butt in again, I have been doing other things over Easter and have only just returned to the Forum.
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  That is a state on which I'm only too happy to accommodate.
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Funny how you can claim to know the gender of thin air.
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Brenda Durhamposted 11 years ago
hu·man
/ˈ(h)yo͞omən/
Adjective
Of, relating to, or characteristic of people or human beings.
Noun
A human being, esp. a person as distinguished from an animal or (in science fiction) an alien.
Synonyms
adjective. humane
noun. man - person - human being - individual - soul - mortal

Darn. I reckon liberal primates should band together and get that definition taken off the internet. We simply cannot have people thinking they're different from animals. No sirreee!
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  Jeff Berndtposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Kingdom: Animalia
  Phylum: Chordata
  Subphylum: Vertebrata
  Class: Mammalia
  Subclass: Theria
  Infraclass: Eutheria
  Order: Primates
  Suborder: Anthropoidea
  Superfamily: Hominoidea
  Family: Hominidae
  Genus: Homo
  Species: sapiens
  
  Face it, Brenda: you are no different from animals.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Face it Jeff, I am different from animals.
  All humans are.
  Some of them just like to use the subject of animal mating habits as an excuse for their own bad behavior.
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  JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, it's usually the anti-gays who bring it up.
  
  "It's not natural, it never happens in nature"
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  jlparkposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Brenda - did you skip biology? Homo sapiens is well within the Animalia kingdom.
  
  Or are you not a mammal? You don't carry your young until their birth? You do? That means one is a mammal. Otherwise you'd be a bird (also an animal) who lays eggs, repitilian (yes, an animal) who also lay eggs.
  
  Brushing it off cause you don't like it, doesn't make it untrue. Genetically, primates and humans are VERY close - we just evolved further is all. OHHHHH...I sense the issue here.
  
  Nevermind.
  
  God created all in his image - which means just that - ALL of us.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Or we could travel all the way back to third grade science...
  
  Animal, vegetable or mineral?
  
  If she's not an animal... that leaves vegetable or rock.
  
  Hey... maybe she has a point.
  
  I am now willing to concede that it's entirely possible that Brenda is not an animal... I agree with her self-assessment.
  
  Me though? I'm an animal.
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  jlparkposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Lol.
  
  I too an an animal.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Face it Jeff, I am different from [other species of] animals.
  All humans are.
  
  There, fixed it for you.
  
  Humans are different from [other, non-human] animals in the same way that squirrels are different from [other, non-squirrel] animals.
  
  You must have gotten terrible grades in Biology class.
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  Soul Man Dancingposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  It didn't need fixing.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  It really did.
  
  Brenda has a habit of posting inaccurate information to the forums.
  
  I'm sure she genuinely believes the nonsense she posts, so, she's not technically lying.
  
  Draw your own conclusions about why she continually posts falsehoods.
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Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years ago
"...for the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written, will come true: Death has been swallowed up in victory."
This (in Corinthians 15 ) is only true for mankind.
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Beth37posted 11 years ago
so the astral plane is Facebook?
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  JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Lol.
  
  If so, I hate the Astral Plane. Stupid facebook, social websites have so many problems.
  
  That's just one example of why I hate Facebook.
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  Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  but thats kinda funny.
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  JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  The really funny part is how someone can get huge amounts of your personal information without you having any idea, including your name, DoB, address, home price, buying date, square footage, house plans, phone number, relatives names and numbers, etc etc etc.
  
  It's funny, except for the fact that it's scary. In my case I'm prepared, even the admins of the sites I visit have no idea where I really am, they see the wrong information.
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  Mighty Momposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  So, if I manage to connect with you on the Astral Plane, will you be in your real location or a fakeout location?
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  Soul Man Dancingposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Close. We wish to project ourselves beyond the confines of the physical realm. Just as the desire to fly led to flying machines, so we have devised machines to project ourselves around the globe into a random planophrasia of thoughts, ideas and stimulation.
  
  The internet is a man-made astral plane. The crypto language programs are an attempt reverse the confounding of the languages at Babel.
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  Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  The story of the Tower of Babel is an allegory, not history. If a single language existed among every human everywhere, it would have originated in Africa 200k years ago, not Mesopotamia 194k years afterwards.
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  Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  ic
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Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years ago
in the final analysis, we should not advocate homosexuality to the youth. End of story.
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  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Advocate? No, of course not - homosexuality doesn't fit everyone.
  
  So...neither should we "advocate" heterosexuality as it doesn't fit everyone. Present both as a possibility, maybe depending on age, but not advocate either one.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  homosexuality is atypical. We accept the atypical, but not act like it is typical or t h e standard.
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  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I do believe that's what I said. Accept that it is there, atypical or not, and do not push either one.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I guess *pushing* was never really the issue. Maybe *advocate* was too strong of a word. Maybe *reveal* or *expose* or *share* would be better choices.
  Jeff gave us a link on how certain indian tribes dealt with incidences homosexuality. They just dealt with it calmly and compassionately without making it a full blown exaggerated issue like we are starting to do! We do not need to share it with our youth. They will find out as they get older... like in Jr. High. Keep an open dialogue about it. And let it go.
  Actually, If homosexuals marry it would elevate the status homosexuality.
  I think Jeff's contribution helped me the most.
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  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I was going to comment that that was our biggest disagreement was age, but realized that elementary includes 12 year old kids. That is not too early to introduce the concept of homosexuality - that some people like the same sex and want to marry them.
  
  Even prior to that age it may be reasonable in a very light manner - gays in movies perhaps. No description, no definition, just that gays exist without making a point of it. If the kids pick it up, OK - if they don't that's OK too. And if they are questioning their own sexuality they would hopefully ask at that point.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Sounds reasonable to me.
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  R Creighton Gposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Never has that phrase "have to accept" sounded so limiting and judgmental.
  
  Pay attention. It is typical, and it is the standard, for those to whom it is.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  For the hetrosexual, they accept the atypical, (fixed it for you) but it is not as common as hetrosexuality.
  For the homosexual, they accept the typical and it is more common than homosexuality.
  Pay attention: See it objectively would you?
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  And yet, the analysis here only shows an individuals belief system over-ruling reality.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  (individual's)
  Yay for freedom of speech through keyboarding through the forums!
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, even when it's little more than bigotry.
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  jlparkposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  And, the respect I had gained for you Kathryn, you have just lost.
  You don't ask a question of people if you have already decided your answer before you start. We respected you in answering it, but you had your mind made up from the beginning. What was the point? Or were you trying to annoy us?
  
  (EDIT - this was in answer to something Kathryn has since removed...however if I removed this, then the following would not make any sense!)
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I do not know. I am sorry. I deleted what I shouldn't have put up. Which I assume is what you, jlpark, are referring to.
  Grumpy I guess. Lack of faith in human nature.
  cynical... mostly annoyed with thinking about ulterior motives on the part of anyone who is really just using the government for selfish ends.
  
  But, since Ghandi said to believe a man... what else can I do.
  
  - no, anyone who marries should have the same rights and benefits
  and if they end up getting divorced...
  more work for the lawyers.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Kathryn, I acknowledge your desire to know about these aspects of homosexuality, and at least your willingness to listen to answers.
  
  It seems like you have a religious background and some precepts gained from that background. You are, as I have stated several times previously, 100% entitled to your beliefs and to live your life according to those beliefs.
  
  My worry is that those beliefs, when fostered upon others who are having doubts and worries about their own lives, can confuse, misinform and damage the lives whom you presumably want to help and encourage.
  
  So, I would ask you, and encourage you, to keep your mind open to learn more and more about us gay people, without judging us. Just, if you can, accept us; join with us as friends; share your worries and your experience; generally warm to us as bona fide members of the community. I have known women (and men, but women in particular) who have become loving and loved surrogate grandmothers (grandfathers!) to the gay community, opening up a beautiful life for everyone concerned.
  
  There is absolutely nothing for you to fear on a personal level or that anyone will try to change your philosophies or moral stand-point. Friendships are much more important. You will be free to change your opinions if and when you wish to.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I didn't know you were gay, jonnycomelately.
  Have you seen Gladiator with Russle Crowe? I am in the middle of it.
  Maximus was an evil character and understood nothing of his father's greatness, wise teachings or good will for the people of Rome. (He ends up killing his own father.) Perhaps I had a lifetime fighting evil in Rome.
  
  I am definitely afraid of evil people whose intents are to usurp goodness. I do not trust everyone like most people here seem to.
  I suspect evil and degradation.
  My impulse is to expose it and prevent it from getting a foothold in society, if it will end up harming us. If it will end up corrupting the youth.
  Is this what makes me a bigot?
  and hated in return... by you?
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  That is certainly the bigotry your religion has indoctrinated you to believe. No one is hating you for it, but it certainly gives good reason to criticize the religious beliefs that have been indoctrinated into you, because that's where all the hatred originates..
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  oops no, Maximus was the general favored by Marcus Aurelius, the philosopher king of Rome 161-180 BCE. Maximus became a fierce gladiator who believed in the the ideals of the murdered king. His son wanted to take away the power of the people (and have it for himself,) once he became king, through the removal of the senate.
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  jlparkposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I also second this, to you Kathryn. Jonny speaks well - and I agree with what he's saying.
  
  I must apologise - I got annoyed because as you are aware it appeared that you had already decided before you asked us. Yet, we had taken the time to respectfully reply to you and answer your question. But, I do understand where you are coming from in your answer to me - thanks for that (have had news that I could consider bad...so was in a grumpy mood myself!)
  
  I applaud you in your quest to learn more, and if you have any questions, please feel free to ask us - even if there is a way to message privately if you want to - I'm happy to do so - to learn from you, and you from us.
  
  Again, my apologies, and listen to jonny - he's clever!
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  thanks and ok.
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Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years ago
The reality is that we are evolving as far as this issue. I am thankful for everyone's insights.
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page1articlesposted 11 years ago
You attempt to apply a group setting to what is an individual issue. Marriage by far is not a group affair it is a committment between two people. Why not ask the question, how to heterosexual people uphold the values of marriage? or Should couples who "swing" be allowed to be married?

I am currious how you define married when populations of the world all have different "types" of marriages. Here in the United States, you have Indian weddings, etc. how do those fit into the christian idea of marriage? What about historical issues like poligamy......... Can a man be married to more than one woman? Arn't there referrences to that in the bible?
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  A reasonable stance would be this:
  Marriage should be between two adults, no matter what sexual preference/orientation, who want to commit to each other for the rest of their lives...
  (and not for ulterior motives of just obtaining benefits) ...with sincerity and true devotion to one another, no matter what religion.
  Of course.
  
  Now, even the Pope agreed that they should not raise children,
  - but, there will be no stopping them.
  And most people here seem to think that everything will work out okay if they do raise them.
  The people of this forum are kind and have a lot of faith in human nature.
  They have faith that everything will be fine.
  
  "Why would it not be?" is their unasked question.
  
  What does the Pope think? How would he answer this question?
  I know most here do not care what the Pope thinks.
  (I am curious.)
  
  My hope is, in time, since there is no stopping this crusade for marriage equality, that the goodness of human nature will fully manifest and cause me to feel ashamed for making legal homosexual marriage (and the subsequent raising of children) an issue at all.
  ( Please cut me some slack! We are after all, just now going into the higher ages. Certainly not there yet!)
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  jlparkposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I believe that what the Pope thinks is what he thinks. By nature of being a Catholic Priest prior to being a Cardinal and then the Pope, he has NOT raised children himself, therefore whilst he can have an opinion - he has not undertaken this himself, so it is merely that - an opinion.
  
  Given the paedophilia scandal in the Catholic church - why are we asking what the Pope thinks anyway? The heads of his faith prior to himself were all about sweeping it under the carpet - HARMING children, but protecting the kiddy-fiddling priests. I think the Pope should be the LAST Person we ask who should raise or have anything to do with children.
  
  You can look it up - scientific research has proven that children raised by same-sex parents develop normally - just like their peers raised by straight parents - if not better - they often have more empathy and a keener sense of social awareness, particularly for inequalities in the treatment of others. Heck, I even wrote a hub on this - reviewing scientific studies of this exact thing.
  
  Before you say "Oh, but the New Family Structures Study says differently" - please research it - this particular study has been debunked - seen Huffington Post for the full article.. It was funded by the Witherspoon Institute (notoriously anti-gay), the data analyst was a long time FELLOW of said Institute, and the question that the how same-sex piece was based on was inaccurate (has a parent EVER had a same sex relationship......this could be anything, one night stand, or long term...most answers were re: one offs).
  
  Gay people are different in child rearing to straight people in one IMPORTANT way - Gay people NEVER EVER have children by ACCIDENT. Any child conceived or adopted by a gay couple is through careful consideration and thought, and a whole lot of struggle. These children are loved BEFORE they even conceived in a way - so much thought and preparation has gone into just getting there.
  (Note - NOT saying that ALL straight people have accidents - I meant to say that every pregnancy/child for gay couple is planned....it's not always the case for straight people)
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I have to have faith in the decency and goodness of human nature, no matter what the sexual orientation. This is the battle for gays in society: the misunderstanding of the prejudiced who jump to conclusions.
  I think we need better terms other than "gay," and "straight" "lesbian", and "bi sexual" ... maybe just transgender... and non-transgender... any suggestions?
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  jlparkposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Thats it in a nutshell, Kathryn (+100 in respect.. *smiles*). Thats usually the battle - the misunderstanding of the usually un-informed rather than prejudiced (tho there are a fair few of those!!!) who jump to conclusions. I do not count you as one of those - you are TRYING to learn. Whilst it may not change your views, and it would be rude of us to try and force that on you, you will have the knowledge needed to make an informed decision on where you stand...which is all anyone can ask for.
  
  Terms - how about Human? That includes the all the letters from the LGBTQIAS - Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans, Questioning, Intersex, Asexual and Straight. *grins*.
  I don't know - how about Queer? It's the one I prefer - lesbian sounds....odd.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Uh oh... I goofed again. According to wikipedia, the term "transgender" should only be used as an adjective and never a noun. One is to use he or she according to whatever the individual has specified. However, I think we need to stop using any of those terms! And none of them should be used as nouns!
  
  Okay, I can put this forum to rest now. Good Night.
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  jlparkposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Nope.
  Trans and non-trans doesn't make it possible to discuss sexuality - you have those who were born in the body they identify with, and those who don't (pre or post op).
  
  If you want to talk sexuality - you have to use the word sexual. IT's in HETEROSEXUAL as well, yet did doesn't confuse me and isn't hard to understand either.
  
  What makes it easier for you is - stop thinking it's all about SEX. IT's not!. The only people who think that all gay people do is think about and have sex are those who are usually against us - funny how those who hate us are the ones who think about gay sex more than we do!.
  
  Sexuality is not all about sex. For ANY sexual orientation. Is it all about sex for you as a straight person? No? Then why would it be any different for us?
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  (Okay, I'll stay up a little longer.)
  
  Well, you have blown up two ideas that I thought were true.
  1.) That homosexually oriented people are attracted to the masculine or feminine in each other, in the same way heterosexually oriented people are.
  2. That homosexually oriented people get together for the sake of expressing their romantic love for each other in a sexual manner.
  Are you saying neither of these statements are necessarily true?
  I'll take my answer off the air.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Point 1: As many variations amongst homosexual people as amongst heterosexual people.
  Speaking personally, I am not attracted by the sexually feminine, period. Yet I still regard myself as homosexual.
  I do not, and have never wished to, act or dress "effeminate." I am simply a man! I am attracted by the masculine in a man. I admire heterosexual men for what they are and what they represent in the human family. I admire and respect the heterosexual woman for what she represents in the human family. I still regard myself as homosexual.
  
  Point 2: Some homosexual people "get together for the sake of...." as you put it, of course.... only natural, and healthy if they do. But not ALL..... of course. Some just get together because a) they want to be friends. b) because they love each other c) because they are bonded and committed to each other in a relationship. ---- or they are business people, or they are sports people, or like to share poetry together, or sing or play music....... Oh! you know all this anyway......
  
  All this shows clearly why labels are useless when you are trying to define human nature.
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  jlparkposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Point 1 - Nope. Myth. Just like heterosexuals may be attracted to a person of the opposite gender because of characteristics they find attracted, homosexuals are also attracted to characteristics.
  Are these necessarily masculine or feminine in nature and opposite to themselves? No, not necessarily. For some people, yes, this is the case. For many however it's not.
  Personally - My partner and I are neither feminine nor masculine in a huge way. We are a fine mixture of both - being female we are possibly a little more feminine than masculine, but I'm def not FEM (nor am I butch!). MY partner likes skirts on occasion, and wears make up. But neither of us identify as butch or fem. But still identify as gay women.
  I admire the femininity in women, but I also admire a woman who isn't afraid to get her hands dirty. Much like me - fem when I feel like it, not so when I feel like it.
  I admire men who are big and burly and masculine, and i admire men who are able to get in touch with their 'softer' side.
  I am still a gay woman.
  
  Point 2 - LIke Jonny said - some people get together for the sake of it - MUCH like some heterosexuals do - in fact many young women I grew up with were very good at this with men they had just met! (grins).
  Sex is a natural and healthy part of sexuality - regardless of what you identify as (aside from asexual - they don't have sex....which is fine too!).
  My partner is one of my best friends - we had a friendship before we had a romantic relationship. However I cannot see my life WITHOUT her - much like your and your husband (if you have one), or jonny and his partner (assuming you have one Jonny - i hate assuming!).
  
  Are your statements true? not completely.
  Are they true for homosexuals? Some - yes. Many - not necessarily
  Are they true for heterosexuals? Some - yes. Many - not necessarily.
  
  We, as gay people, are just like you as a heterosexual person - we are attracted to what we are attracted to - this is not necessarily the same as the next person - regardless of sexual orientation.
  
  Thank you for being brave enough to put your beliefs around homosexuality out there for us to provide information on. It must have taken some courage to do so - as it puts it out there to be ridiculed. I hope that we have not done that, as I do not wish to do that. I wish to help you in your quest to have the correct information, and thank you for being brave enough to trust us.
  Also - note please - Jonny and I do not speak for EVERY homosexual out there, just as you do not speak for every heterosexual. There are differences within us all.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Pity in some ways that this Forum is so world-wide. If we were all living in one locality, I reckon you, Kathryn, Me, ATM maybe, and so many others would have a really great party one night at a really salubrious (don't know what that means, but it sounds intelligent, lol) joint. Would we have to keep the party clean? Nah, just natural! Better be careful what I say here, my words tend to get misunderstood.... but I mean naturally friendly, respectful, caring, supportive and relaxed.
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  jlparkposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Sounds like a plan - if I'm ever in the States again - I'll see what happens! Otherwise, if you're in New Zealand - it's on!
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I checked out that word... in www.vocabulary.com...
  
  Salubrious is a fancy way to describe something that’s good for you or is generally favorable to mind or body, but it need not be limited to describing healthy foods or liquids.
  
  We salute each other with the cheer, "To your health!" as we chug down something that probably isn’t that good for us. But if it were salubrious, it would be. The two words, salute and salubrious stem from the same salus, meaning "welfare, health.” Maybe next time, raise a glass of wheatgrass instead of vino!
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  Jeff Berndtposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  +1
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  This is where I get a bit serious again.... no, I don't have a partner. Never had one. It's a long story, and too deep to get into right now, but you can see what misunderstanding and ignorance can do to a life, when there is either no guidance, or very little guidance, or empathy with a young person's needs from a very early age? I blame no one now for my lack of companionship throughout my childhood now. No one talked about it, because sex and sexuality was embarrassing and it was assumed you would pick up all you needed to know behind the bicycle shed during school lunch time.
  
  Please parents, don't let your kids down because of your own hangups. Drop any questions about your kid's orientation, just accept him or her just as they are without judgment.... but LISTEN ! HELP them. Help him/her into a satisfying adult life. This is your responsibility. If you feel inadequate, share that with your kid as well. The honesty will be infectious and you will learn from each other.
  
  Even here I must edit and add something I have just been watching on TV....
  
  http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b013ywz4
  
  It's about the Theory of Dr. David Barker and further research done in India. It seems that each of us is individually influenced by that nine months in our mother's womb and the early life nourishment we receive. In other words, no one is to blame.... each of us must learn to accept "myself as myself," unique in person and purpose. And there are influences in our lives over which we have absolutely no control.... just accept "I am," period.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Have a good night's rest. Kathryn, but please, just sleep on this: I do not want another label put on me by anyone, thanks.
  
  Repeating what jlpark has just said.... I am human! Just like you. I have all, repeat ALL, the feelings, desires, fears, joys, sadness, confusion, etc., etc., like you and anyone else. Human through and through.
  
  You do not know what my desires are. I don't know what your desires are. For each of us it is private business, and should not be guessed at by anyone else.
  
  However, I can assure you that my desires are way, way beyond the narrow (sometimes boring) matters of sex. I am much more concerned with genuine loving friendship and learning all the intricacies of making such friendships happen.
  
  Bon nuit.
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  jlparkposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  What you said!
  
  Labels are for boxes, not people.
  
  Good night Jonny
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, totally reject what the Church and the Pope have to say about it because that's the place from which all the bigotry and hatred stem. Trust your "human" nature, instead.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Very good advice in my opinion.... for what it's worth.
  
  Also, if you want to hang onto beliefs in your life, you be in control of them. Don't pass control to any other human, or to any mythical, magical, imaginary, spirit being. The chances are that such beings you take on have been planted in your mind by other humans for their own ulterior motives.
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks Jonny. It certainly is the height of bigotry and intolerance for believers to create threads "Calling" out homosexuals only to denounce and alienate them, and then call it freedom of speech...
  
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I did not mean to denounce and alienate them. You are like a HPF police man aren't you. A rather mean police man, if you ask me. We are discussing a pertinent topic which has been in the news and is bringing forth all sorts of consciousness raising questions. I am just trying to raise my own consciousness regarding the matter of legalizing homosexual marriage (and the consciousness of others as well. We're not all already enlightened, as you obviously are. Of course it is due to your unbiased views which are free of religious indoctrination. Are we all like you? Obviously not. Again I ask...please cut me a little slack.)
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I, of all people do not want to abuse freedom of speech.
  Would you, ATM, agree with my stated conclusion?
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  But, you are.
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, you did, that is blatantly obvious.
  
  Nonsense, you have every right to exhibit bigotry and intolerance towards homosexuals, which you have accomplished here.
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Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years ago
Now I am really confused. I thought we were discussing human nature. There has to be a constant about human nature.
Anyway... what they do not want to admit is that my two statements are probably quite TRUE. Don't do any sort of labeling, though.
We have certainly learned a lot about homosex u a... I mean
humans.
Thank you again.
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jenniferrpoveyposted 11 years ago
On the attracted to masculine or feminine.

It's a lot more complicated than that. I have known homosexual couples where there was a definite "butch" and "femme", and ones where there was not. Heck, it doesn't always work out that way for hetero couples. If there's a femme in my marriage - it's not me. Ahem.

Homosexual and bisexual people, just like heterosexuals, have a type they tend to be attracted to, have things they go for, things that turn them on. I prefer long hair - on both men and women. When I go for men they tend to be pretty boys - my husband used to be one, but he's kind of aged out of it in his forties, but still. The women I go for also tend to be on the feminine side. I'd rather have a redhead or a brunette than a blonde. I'm greatly attracted to Asian women - but not Asian men (which I've always found strange, but what can I say).

Chemistry isn't logical, and "type" is affected by sexual orientation, of course it is, but it's not always what you'd expect.
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Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years ago
But, we could agree that sex leads to...
and ends up equalling...

< LOVE >

- which is the true justification, reason and purpose for marriage in the human population...
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  R Creighton Gposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I would say no. Sex will only ever be a side-benefit of love. Sex is to love what pie is to meatloaf, and those who choose to eat only desserts will find themselves in trouble sooner or later.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  ...so, love leads to sex? well, lets just say it happens bilaterally and at the same time. (lol)
  ...we must agree that sex / love are behind the impulse for marriage.
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Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years ago
...and, in conclusion, love in a marriage between two homosexually oriented individuals, (just as it is for heterosexually oriented couples,) is the basis for a healthy and decent environment for raising a family.
This would have to be true.

What is there to argue, now?
Why didn't they proclaim this years ago? Then I wouldn't have had to call homosexually oriented people to explain weather or not they should raise children... which, in the final analysis, was my real question.

These things have been made evident through this long forum discussion:

*All words used to describe an individual's "sexual" orientation refer to "gender" orientation.

* All words used to describe gender orientation should not be used as nouns.

* Marriage in any relationship is understood to be a union of love and is to be regarded as such.

* Any type of discrimination as far as marriage equality should be eradicated
weather the parents are heterosexually oriented or homosexually oriented.

* Children prosper in a family established by the legal marriage two homosexually oriented adults because they too are committed to loving, understanding, and properly guiding their children, as all loving adults are.

* In the typical household, children should be answered honestly with sensitivity regarding questions concerning the phenomenon of homosexuality observed in their world.

* Pronouns of he and she will be respected, according to the stated/proclaimed gender identity of the individual.
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  R Creighton Gposted 11 years agoin reply to this
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  And yet, it isn't true at all, considering the divorce rates (especially amongst Christians), spousal abuse and dysfunctional families everywhere.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  So, what is your conclusion in all of this, A Troubled Man? What exactly are you arguing?
  That no one should marry and raise children?
  
  BAH! lets just do art and make music and create robots and travel space and figure out how to live to be 300 years old! We do not need children!
  or couples
  or love.
  At least give us the leeway to try for the ideal!
  (And if you don't, I know Someone who will.
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Simple really. Your religious beliefs are intolerant and bigoted towards homosexuals, hence your conclusions are not valid.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  O. K. , A Troubled Man. I should not have put up this forum discussion. it was a total waste of time. But it was not to denounce or alienate. If it came across that way, I am sorry. My badness.
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Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years ago
Never Mind
Please take this Forum Discussion down, HubPages.
I do not have the power to do so or I would take it down myself.
I will be more careful in the future. I will post things like.........
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  Soul Man Boogieposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Don't worry. Homosexuality is not a good or healthy thing for anyone. It is a hard fact for some to face.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  It will be legal and it must be accepted.
  I am finished with this discussion.
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  Soul Man Boogieposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  The law can't make anything right or wrong, only legal. I refuse to participate. I can not condone deviant behavior just to be popular.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I doubt anybody wants you to participate in homosexual behavior with them. Actually, after reading your posts here, I'd be mildly surprised if anyone wants you to participate in heterosexual behavior with them.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Do you have personal experience which confirms this in your own life, Soul Man Boogie?
  
  Hypocritical Troll!
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  Soul Man Boogieposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I don't see how it is hypocritical to hold a belief that I adhere to.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  When you belief is centred on your own ignorance you do not have a right to judge others.
  
  True and fair judgment can only come when you are in possession of all the facts.... I can see from your pseudo-judgment that you do NOT have all the facts... because you need to base everything upon your beliefs. Logical.
  
  If you have a particular abhorence towards homosexuality, it might be that you have some deeper desires which you have tried to satisfy, then you got guilty feelings and withdrew from it. Then you turn upon anyone else who has similar desires and you call them very bad and deviant.
  
  So..... look into your own life, decide whether any of what I have said is true and sort out your own life first.
  
  Personal honesty! And hopefully the courage to tell us exactly who you are in your profile, instead of hiding behind anonymity.
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  peeplesposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  "Don't worry. Homosexuality is not a good or healthy thing for anyone. It is a hard fact for some to face."
  I think there might be 32,571 adopted children who may feel differently since gay couples saved them from a life of jumping through the foster care system or growing up in a home unwanted.
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  R Creighton Gposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you!
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Cheeky Girlposted 11 years ago
Questions:
1. Are there any of you who would rather not be homosexual... Who regret your decision... Who wish you were not?
ANS: Being Bi is who I am. I got over it a very long time ago. In my teens, and I even made hubs here about it.

2. If not, what percentage of the population do you and other homosexuals believe you are?
ANS: No one has done a survey that can answer that question. Some gay women and guys are afraid to stand up and be counted. Being counted equals being judged, which they hate.

3. How will your life improve if your'e allowed to be married?
ANS: it gives bi or gay folks the exact same rights as straight married people, such as tax, inheritance and other legal issues around having families.

4. Do you think homosexuality will increase if condoned by the government through promoting legal marriage.
ANS: No Govt is dumb enough to go against bi or gay marriage. (Some western and more than a few non-western Govts are exceptions.) But politicians have to renew their jobs every few years and so they turned the issue into a football and kick it round a lot.

It is not down to Govts to decide how gay you are. It's not a choice to be gay or bi. It's a circumstance.

5. Do you truly want to be legally married when it gets down to it?
ANS: Yes.

6. Do you agree with the Pope that you should not raise children in this life style?
ANS: Govts don't decide how gay any of us are, and neither does his Holiness the Pope, with due respect to him. Lots of straight people already can't raise kids properly. So bi or gay people can give it a decent try. Scaremongering doesn't work any more. The more "out of touch" authority figures are perceived to be, the more people will turn their back on them. Sorry, but it's true.

7. Do you think this lifestyle should be advocated to our youth?
ANS: freedom of choice, more education and awareness of choices that teens and young people have should be employed to teach young people, so they are not so conflicted by different opposing views. Suicide is high among the gay community. So is depression. I don't want to see those imposed through shallow arguments on young people. Love is love, no matter what the gender or orientation.

Nice questions. Interesting forum thread.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Nice hub, Cheeky Girl.... thank you. There are really positive benefits for our society in accepting and welcoming same-gender relationships, whether to the extent of marriage or not.
  
  A happy couple sharing life, with all its ups and downs, trials, achievements and celebrations, is recognised as a very stable and desirable way to live. There are many same-gender couples around the world who can and do enjoy a wonderfully close and committed partnership for many years. They are supportive of their local community. They can indulge in all manner of careers and interests. Their partnership has come about usually through careful and considerate planning.
  
  How can such a situation ever be regarded as undesirable by any section of society? It does not have to be promoted by Government or anyone else. It simply needs to be allowed. without any fuss or special treatment. This is where that word "choice" comes in. Freely given, freely received. The sexual orientation is not the choice, just the fact of what is.
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  Soul Man Boogieposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Not a choice? No one is born a homosexual, that is the fact.
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  Uninvited Writerposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Prove it...
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  Jeff Berndtposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  [Citation needed]
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  Soul Man Boogieposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  It is not natural.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  [Citation needed]
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  jenb0128posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Define "natural."
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Wearing clothes. Smoking tobacco. Riding on a bus. Worrying about politics. The Internet. Believing in what the mind cooks up. Taking photographs. Surgical operations.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  It's not natural for him, and since he can't see past himself, he thinks it's unnatural for everyone. I see this kind of thing all the time.
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I found at least 15 various definitions, none of them support SMB.
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  jenb0128posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I believe it!
  
  I get so annoyed with the "But... but... it's not natural!" argument (if you can really call it an argument).
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  Soul Man Dancerposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  No "buts" about it. It is contrary to the natural function of male and female humans . . . deviant behavior.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  If it wasn't natural for them then they wouldn't be doing it. What's natural for one my not be for another.
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  Soul Man Dancerposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Give me a break. Human sexual organs are designed for procreation, not perverted recreation.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  So no masturbation mutual or solo, no protected intercourse between male and female, no foreplay!
  
  Ugh, I don't want to live by your rules.
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  jenb0128posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  So, you personally only engage in any sort of sexual behavior if you want to procreate, and you remain celibate otherwise?
  
  Right.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Soul Man, they were made to be enjoyable and fun, otherwise no procreation would have taken place.
  
  Do you have any enjoyment in your life? Or does you God prohibit enjoyment because it's of the Devil?
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  Soul Man Dancerposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  1. Right, and if humans just used them on members of the same sex, no procreation would have taken place.
  
  2. I have a better time than you do.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  If you believe that you are free to keep on doing it. I am, likewise, free to carry on my life as I see fit.
  
  You do not know what my life is like, what I do, etc. I don't know what you do. However, I have opened myself to discussion so that people can have a clear idea of me and my principles. People have criticized me and when at fault I have owned up to it. When will you have the courage and courtesy to do the same? Are you afraid of something? All we know of you so far is that you have a narrow-minded belief system.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Who are you to say what is deviant?
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  psycheskinnerposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Nature disagrees.
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  Soul Man Dancerposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  How do you figure? Humans, like otters, mate for a lifetime. Humans can not mate with a member of the same sex since there would be no productive result from such miscreant use of sexual organs.
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  Ralph Deedsposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  They can, and they do.
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  jenb0128posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I can't have kids. So, since no baby-making can result, should my husband and I remain celibate?
  
  What about elderly couples? Or women who aren't that old but have gone through menopause? Or couples who simply don't want kids? Or those who are done having kids? Are they all being "miscreant" when they have sex?
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  Cletus Jonesposted 11 years agoin reply to this
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  None of your business!
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  Soul Man Dancerposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Well, he doesn't come on time! We know that for sure.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  ....5, 6, 7 o'clock, 8 o'clock, Rock......get into the swing Man, you only live once!
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  Soul Man Dancerposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  What? Are you Dr. Pepper?
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  No, I was born in the 1940s, not the 1880s.
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  Soul Man Dancerposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  No coke and you choke? How about amyl?
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Don't need any of those, and never will. Coke is an abomination..... no value as a food or a drink, and made by people who (presumably) call themselves christian....... Amyl is explosive, so why would you?
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  Soul Man Dancerposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Me? I don't do drugs, or homosexual behavior. I am a natural man!
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  A natural, self-righteous, self-made man, who worships his creator, no less!
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  Uninvited Writerposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Most humans do not mate for life... have you checked the divorce statistics lately?
  
  Everyone is never going to be gay the same as every straight person is not going to reproduce. How do you not know if you believe in God that that is the way he wanted it, to avoid over population?
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  Soul Man Dancerposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  1. That is just another indication of how captive, urbanized humans have strayed from their natural existence outside of captivity.
  
  2. That would be natural.
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  Soul Man Dancerposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Please!
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  Ralph Deedsposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  That's a minority view held mostly by a small minority of social conservative Christian evangelicals.
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  Soul Man Boogieposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  It is not a minority point of view outside of the gay community and Hollywood.
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  Ralph Deedsposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Here's a balanced article from Huffington Post and Scientific American on this subject:
  
  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/2 … 03361.html
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  Jeff Berndtposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You can keep repeating things that aren't true, but contrary to what you might think, repeating a falsehood over and over again won't make it magically become true.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I live in Canada and we've had same sex marriage for a while now, and it hasn't affected me at all. Seems to me to be a win win thing.
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  Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I always forget you're Canadian.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  So go to Hollywood and enjoy yourself for a change. Your Lord won't mind!
  
  I suspect you have a secret guilt.
  
  Or you could try Holy-wood. You won't know the Woulds from the Frees.
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  jlparkposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Soul Man Boogie - proof please.
  
  If you are saying it's a choice, the ONLY way you'd know that for sure is if you had had to make that choice yourself. So, tell me, when did you decide to stop being gay, and be straight??? Because if being gay is a choice, so then is being straight....and because you seem to be an authority on the fact that it's definately a choice, you must have made it for yourself then.
  
  If you haven't made the choice yourself, then you cannot categorically state that it is a choice.
  
  Me, being one of the 'gays' - I have been this way for as LONG as I remember. If you believe no one is born gay - explain to me why in a family of STRAIGHT people - both parents, both step parents, all SEVEN siblings, why I am the only gay? You'd think - growing up with all the straightness, I'd be straight if things like that could be CHANGED.
  
  I was born this way. I've ALWAYS been different to my siblings, and straight friends. Could I change it? No. Should I? No. Did I make a choice to be this way? NO...who would choose to be persecuted by people who have NO IDEA what they are on about?
  
  So, tell me, Soul Man - when did you choose?
  I've even posed this as a question on the answers page, and you know - even though I've left it for the 'choice' people to come and explain themselves - all 19 answers state "i didn't choose to tbe straight"
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  If Soul Man has a face, he or she is afraid to show it. Tells us a lot, doesn't it?
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  jlparkposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  That it does, Jonny, that it does.
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  jlparkposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I can't reply to Soul Man on the actual part of this he said it - but, I have to laugh - he's a NATURAL man???? Only does things that are 'natural'? Yet he's using the internet??? The internet is MOST CERTAINLY not Natural!
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Ralph Deedsposted 11 years ago
When I was in high school I had the good fortune to have a sex ed course that was quite complete. It was a pilot program in my high school. The teacher assembled a variety of teaching aids, for example, the U.S. Army V.D. training film which was designed to scare the crap out of young G.I.s. Another resource was a thick tome entitled, as I recall, "Encyclopedia of Sexual Anomalies." It was one of the most popular items with the class because it covered everything from voyeurism, to fetishism to bestiality to necrophilia. At that time homosexuality was considered a psychological anomaly, so a section on it was included in the encyclopedia. The conclusion I drew from perusing the book at some length was that sexual attraction like Heinz soup comes in many varieties some innate and others which may result from experience. Since then I have known several gay people all of whom believe that they were born with their orientation and did not acquire it from anyone or any experience. My impression is that this is by far the majority situation. However, I can accept the fact that a minority have acquired their same sex attraction through experience and still others are bi-sexual. Last weekend I saw a movie made from Jack Kerouac's book "On the Road" in which one of the characters was the gay poet, Alan Ginzburg, and another was Dean Moriarity (Neal Cassady) who, according to the movie, had an active sex life with several women and several men. What I have seen and read confirms what I learned from the book many years ago--sexual attraction comes in a great variety flavors, some innate and others acquired. My impression is that the vast majority, if not all, gays and lesbians as well as the psychiatric profession believe that homosexuality is innate, not acquired, and that gay conversion therapy is rarely if ever effective.
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  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  On the contrary, gay "therapy" can be quite successful. Torture a person enough, physically or mentally, make the results of being gay bad enough, and few people will profess to be gay or be willing to accept a homosexual partner. Society has done that for years, from electroshock "therapy" to condemnation of gays, and the result was that gays hid in the closet.
  
  You may not convert them to heterosexuality, but you can certainly make them unwilling to come out of the closet and that seems to be what counts to many that think mistreating gays is helpful somehow.
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  Ralph Deedsposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  True. But that is rapidly becoming history for the majority in this country.
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Astra Nomikposted 11 years ago
What Cassy (Cheeky Girl) said is very true. Being lesbian or gay is a circumstance, not a choice. I am glad there are decent and understanding people in Hub Pages forums who understand this. Thank you.
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  Cheeky Girlposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Cheers Cathy! You're a babe! LOL!
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Ralph Deedsposted 11 years ago
Here's a thoughtful opinion piece on same-sex marriage from today's Wall Street Journal, of all places!

A Conservative Case for Gay Marriage

"As conservatives debate the subject of gay marriage, maybe they should pause to consider their view about the other kind of gay marriage.

"You know the one: He works mind-boggling hours and only comes home once his wife is sure to be asleep. He beams at the sight of an old college buddy. Two years into the marriage, she starts murmuring to her closest friend that he just isn't very interested in her, that way. Five years later he starts acting out in odd ways when he drinks. And he drinks a lot.

"The correct term for this kind of thing is "mixed-orientation marriage." Human needs and desires and conveniences being what they are, sometimes these marriages serve some mutually agreed purpose. So it was between Cole Porter and Linda Lee Thomas, Harold Nicolson and Vita Sackville-West. The heart has its reasons which reason knows nothing of, as someone once said.

"Still, I'll go out on a limb and wager that, nine times out of 10, we're talking about a human tragedy, or rather two tragedies, his and hers. That is what happens when deceit and self-deception are the foundation of any relationship, marriage most of all. Now and again, the private tragedy becomes a full-blown public catastrophe. As in: Larry Craig, Jim McGreevey, Ted Haggard, you know the list.

"So—are conservatives for this kind of marriage? Would they, for themselves, choose to share their life, and their bed, with someone toward whom they never had and never will feel a physical attraction?

"I'm sure there are a few readers out there who will write me to say that a dishonest straight marriage is better than an honest gay one. For the children. So they can grow up to see one parent lead a miserable life, and the other a humiliating one.

"Other readers will protest that just because the first kind of marriage is wrong doesn't make the second one right. It's an argument that seems to be made without much thought as to why any sane person with a same-sex orientation would choose to marry someone of the opposite sex.

"I have a crazy theory; see if you agree. It's that gay people generally want to lead lives of conventional respectability. So much so, in fact, that many are prepared to suppress their sexual nature to lead such lives. The desire for respectability is commendable; the deception it involves is not. To avoid deception, you can try to change the person's nature. Good luck with that. Or you can modify a social institution so that gay people can have what the rest of us take for granted: The chance to find love and respectability in the same person.

"But wait, don't civil unions provide all of that? And if gay marriage, why not polygamous marriage? Where does it all end?

"To the first question: How odd that the same people who argue that the distinction between "marriage" and "civil unions" has no practical difference should also insist on maintaining the distinction. If all they are doing is taking a bold stand on behalf of semantic purity, what's the point? And if they are trying to preserve a privileged status for traditional marriage, won't that encourage gay people to continue to seek straight marriages?

"Is the triumph of an invidious distinction worth the price in unfulfilled or misdirected lives?"

Now we get to the après gay marriage, le déluge argument. It's true that to tinker with tradition is to risk destroying it. But what tradition? Old-fashioned marriage—the kind that usually lasted a lifetime; the kind that didn't come with a pre-nup—has spent the past 50 years being shredded by a culture of Las Vegas marriages, Murphy Brown households, Deadbeat Dads and No-Fault divorces. If straight America wants more traditional marriage, it should practice more traditional marriage. As for that allegedly looming threat of polygamy, you may as well argue that hunting should be forbidden because it could lead to gun violence. The slippery slope argument usually winds up being on the side of mindless repression.

"American conservatives should understand this better than anyone. Unlike European conservatives, we have always believed that it is better to channel passions than to dam them, better to have them disinfected by sunlight than to let them fester in shade. That's true of the lust for wealth, the lust for power, and for lust itself. The American bias has always favored openness, pragmatism, and the acknowledgment of reality as we find it.

"On the matter of gay marriage, the reality we find is millions of Americans who want to participate in all the institutions of American life, from politics to the military to marriage. What is there not to like? Conservatives spent the 90s worrying about the Balkanization of U.S. politics by every group that wanted to emphasize its differences. Here you have exactly the opposite trend.

"Finally, take a look at the photograph that goes with this column. It's a picture of happiness, respectability and pride. Does that look like the end of Western Civilization? Or does it look like the fulfillment of America's basic promise, the pursuit of happiness, honest, unembarrassed, at nobody else's expense? Don't you prefer it to a picture of the other kind of gay marriage—you know, the one of the groom with the faraway gaze, the bride with that look of anxious foreboding?

Write to bstephens@wsj.com

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 … DDLESecond
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