Is it socially illegal for me to truly respect and in a way love Obama, and truly respect Trump?
I have been in some tough scrapes. And I have shaken at least seven leaders(Presidents from foreign countries and our own) Perhaps Valéry Giscard d'Estaing was most memorable as Kissinger was shook my hand next -- and I see him influencing Nixon out of Vietnam. Yes I respect NIxon for saving some brothers. Clinton is and will always be epic and will be Reagan. Roosevelt was handicapped. Salinas down Mexico way was strange as his mom seemed to tell him what to do. Tr?n ??c L??ng of Vietnam was just so brave and yet friendly.
Did someone say that I am equal to any? Can I judge them? I respect.
Eric, I know the thoughtful manner with which you approach controversial issues. All around us right now people are having thoughtless knee-jerk reactions to Trump and to Obama. Trump is either all bad or all good and Obama is the same. The thoughtless ones listen to their favorite commentator and repeat mindlessly the words of love and hate, respect and disrespect.
How about this? I am not a fan of the Affordable Care Act/Obamacare. We were promised three things but received only one. Affordable premiums, affordable care and insurance for many Americans who had none. We got one of those three. BUT, in my way of thinking, Obama did us a great service. Republicans under GWB had every chance to do something regarding healthcare, but they did nothing. It was irresponsible and cowardly. Obama took the bull by the horns and did something. And guess what? Now the Republicans will do something. They will take advantage of all that we learned through the establishment of the ACA. The result will likely be better, but it is only because Obama paved the way. If they blunder this, and they might, they should pay an enormous price.
Back to your question. Thoughtful people, and I consider myself a thoughtful person, and you as well, Eric, are able to look at people with whom they disagree (as I did in the above paragraph regarding Obama and the ACA) and see more than just the negative. They can see the good and the positive as well.
Yes, you can love Obama and you can respect Trump. It is not a contradiction, but an example of a mature mind. The immature minds, the lazy minds, see these men two dimensionally. There is no depth in the perception of lazy minded people. No man is all bad and no man is all good or all right or all wrong. We only have to look inside ourselves to know that is true, and if we see it there, then we should see it in others as well.
Yes, love Reagan, love Clinton, love George Bush, both of them and despise them all at the same time for any corruption or dishonesty or stupidity. Our judgements of an individual should reflect the complexity of that individual. I will not like everything about any one person and neither will I despise everything about him.
Good question, Eric. Thank you for the thoughtful, mature way in which it was asked.
Chris, I got goosebumps reading this. I met a man in Sedona Arizona, who had performed for presidents. He was oft misquoted. But but he said, in that Art Barn, who had seen Lucy, Mae, and John Wayne, that he never met a man (more later)
Only a man with rose colored glasses can look at Obama and walk away with your view. You are forgeting the fact about ACA. It was created with lies and sold to the American people ala Jonathan Gruber. It was designed to fail. Single payer was plan...
Wow. I wish I'd written this comment, but I'm not there yet. Folks like you and Eric need to keep speaking out - to help the rest of us along.
Jack, look at my whole comment. Love them (including Obama) and despise them at the same time. If we dealt with every person as you describe, there would be no love in the world. No one will meet your expectations all the time, except you, possibly.
You can feel any old way you like, even if the basis for these feelings was a single encounter involving a handshake. But I think people have a reasonable expectation that heads of state should be evaluated based on their policies and actions, and whether these policies and actions were morally defensible, honorable, and Constitutional, and whether they were beneficial to the American people.
Different people will have different moral yardsticks. Their value system may make them Statists, populitsts, Socialists, Anarchists, crony-capitalists, free-market advocates, individualists, believers in individual rights (or not).
You seem to be confessing to having no distinct moral standards, along with an disinclination for intellectual rigor.
A very interesting answer. No none has ever told me I seem that way before. I think I would feel very safe having a 100% Black and White understanding of everything. Crony-capitalists is a very interesting concept masquerading as a fact. Thank you.
SV, "heads of state should be evaluated based on their policies and actions." When head of st. comes directly from private sec., he has no record. We must hold this man accountable, but we must also allow him to lead.
"You seem to be confessing to having no distinct moral standards, along with a disinclination for intellectual rigor." This is a point of view. Not every reader of your comments will agree. I don't.
Maybe some folks should examine their moral standards and make adjustments. One who settles into my way and only my way has distinct standards. What if they are wrong. Should one stick to them? Of course some folks are never wrong ;-)
It's your prerogative to feel however you want to feel, for whatever reason. I personally haven't formed a personal opinion of Trump yet. Let the man take office and do his job and check back in a year.
Thank you for asking the question as it led me on a most wonderful journey. I reflected, explored, and arrived at some Hub Ideas.
Shooting from the hip there is no moral consequence, of least for me.
Note: I hear the inauguration on TV. Am I boycotting? Just kidding about.
But, socially depends on circles traveled and they have cultures and sub-cultures. Some of those circles there may be mild criticism to disdain by those who disagree. But, most certainly there is not severity of legal penalty.
Now . . . TMI . . . meant to share some of my exploring seeking an answer. The question I know is of a personal nature. When I seek an answer with respect to that I pose the question of self to arrive at an answer. It presented to me what psychology names as cognitive dissonance and I kinda’ think for you too? That is a natural occurrence when a decision ‘must’ be made between two or more competing values. For ‘me’ those competing values were:
Social vs. me
Respect vs. love
Trump vs. Obama
Respect Trump vs. Respect Obama
Love Trump vs. Love Obama
Realizing those my journey began with reflecting and then exploring for a few hours, even though I had made my decision. Anyway as a result of that adventure I arrived at some Hub ideas that may come to fruition in the future. I dun’no . . . Those Hub ideas with summaries are:
** Beliefs, Believing, Cognitive Dissonance, and Changing Beliefs
Summary: We all have beliefs and believe those beliefs. But, what happens when choosing between competing values means altering a belief? This article explores that.
** Cognitive Dissonance with Competing Political and Religious Values.
Summary: Is the environment a religious or political value? Does conflict exist when deciding to vote for a representative on such an issue? That is cognitive dissonance.
** Ethical / Moral Dilemmas and Political Divide.
Summary: A dilemma has two or more undesirable choices. Does moral dilemmas cause political divide? This article explores with historical examples.
** Absolutism and Relativism in Politics. Does Cognitive Dissonance Lead Compromise?
Summary: When faced with arriving at solutions there will be competing absolutist values. Does resolving that cognitive dissonance result with compromise through relativism?
** Sociology, Society(s), and Cultures / Sub-Cultures
Summary: This article explores the basics of sociology, society(s), and cultures. Later sociology will explain formation and traits of social circles with a culture and sub-cultures.
Tim that is a very cool answer. We have this notion in my Christian social circle. It is about loving one's enemy. This causes some muddying of the water. But for sure we can dislike the idea and like the man. Cognitive dissonance shifts truth here.
So, are you gon'na watch the inauguration today or boycott giggle + giggle. I think I will peek and maybe watch. I have never witnessed the event before. I guess I should make a nice cup'pa tea or two!
Tim, my eldest daughter lives and works within a 5 minute walk from the event. She is now in a cabin in Ohio that has no TV or Internet. I think I will catch a little. I must admit I see it more as a show, than real tradition.
I will let his deeds speak. Right now, let's say I'm skeptical and scared. He does not seem to like federal employees, and I am one of them. If, on the other hand, he turns out to do positive things for the country I will not pretend he did not.
True Story - Mel. I read this and immediately felt a little uneasy that you take such a rational clear thinking approach. I reckon I have just come to expect vitriolic nastiness these days. Could you have to many supervisors? Just saying.
A good point of view, Mel. I hope I get there. (My daughter is also a federal employee. She's DOD, so maybe she is safe.)
If you are liberal and say you respect Trump, you risk at best shunning and at worst violence by a hypocritical left. Death threats against Scott Adams of Dilbert fame are only the most public example, threats against liberal performers who wanted to perform at Trump's inauguration are another.
If you are moderate and say you respect Trump, conservatives around you welcome you and they've always tolerated you, while the leftists may reject you. It is evidence that the right is more tolerant than the modern left.
Many on the left engage in the strict black/white morality attributed to the religious right. And they've adopted the strong in-group/out-group morality while ironically saying "don't other / exclude people". Thus they shun conservatives and demonize them, something that has escalated to unfriending people and attacking people who express politically incorrect opinions.
I wonder Tamara if we are called at all to even try to fathom the words of some people. Somehow in so many there seems to be a disconnect between thought and speech. If one does not listen how does one here. And so should we listen to those who don't
Conservatives get the liberal perspective from educational institutions, mainstream media, pop culture. Liberals get to live in an echo chamber - and have to learn that others have valid concerns instead of namecalling them as evil bigots.
It always amazes me how your opinions about liberals R generally the same liberals have for conservatives. GOP twisted things 'opposite' like that over years. Good thing the majority in this country don't fall under either left or right extreme.
Misfit Chick - will you consider the possibility is that liberals redefined terms to alter their meaning to exclude themselves when bad and only cover their rivals?
I don't know how old you are, but I've been listening to the GOP take Dem arguments and twist them to make it look like they have the same perspective (so people will like them better) over the past few decades. It works well on their people.
If you do not mind Tamara and Catherine - may I point out that in all that back and forth not one issue was addressed -- it was all about my side is good and your's bad. Can a lib be right about recycling and a con right about trade agreements?
In this era of political polarization you will gain little love or respect by positing such a question. I say this with all due respect.
It would be more interesting to read in a Hub why you "in a way" love and respect Mr. Obama and respect President Trump - handshakes notwithstanding.
One thing is sure, anyone who believes the left is tolerant on such issues should reconsider their political alliances.
Larry I find the intolerance of the "other" side's intolerance to be a favorite of mine. It is interesting that you feel the need to throw a right jab at the end of your answer. Just interesting.
The right jab comes from months of watching the left slouch toward anarchy while building a rabid wall of bigotry, racism and intolerance to hide behind - media included.
You're entitled to your own feelings. I am not a fan of Trump or Obama but I respect them both as a fellow humans going through life. At the end of the day I hope we can all look at the similarities and focus on them. Each and every one of us knows pain. Regardless of our differences I always try to remember that when it comes to people I dislike. We can't forget that even if we disagree with a person we can not dehumanize them. If we do that we start to lose our humanity and see them as not real or inhuman.
Socially illegal? I think it depends on who you talk to. Obama has a lot of 'lovers' & haters for a lot of silly reasons; and so does Trump - except most of his haters are people he has directly & personally alienated, insulted or offended in some way. The rolled-back age of being able to be politically incorrect & say any hateful thing you want about anyone is the norm that has been re-administered into our society.
If you can still respect Trump for that, and for not even sort of caring about uniting the people of this country - more power to you. He's already proven what kind of president he will be during the weeks leading up to the inauguration. I personally carry a raging torch of indifference toward him. Four years isn't that long of a wait. I'm simply going to attempt to ignore him for that long, which is going to be dern near impossible with his twitter disposition, LoL! If he would just shut up, it would be so much easier.
Well MC, U might not need 2 ENDURE the most Unfit, Unhinged DANGEROUS Meglomaniac in U.S. HISTORY named Donald Drumpf 4 much longer ~ VEGAS Odds ?? 4-1 he Lasts 6 MONTHs ~ Growing MASSIVE Protests & LAW Suits Against him have just begun
Thank you Catherine. I always get something from your positions and the talented way you relate them. If you pay attention at all to electronic connected things you will not be able to ignore him. But good luck in that endeavor.
No, why would it be illegal? And why am I or billions more running around all 'free' then?
Political barney—brutal I know. Everyone wants to be correct.
Just think of it as any other argument. Specifically, a time someone tried to get you to change something about yourself. They might have explained how they don’t like how you act & that you should change it & reasons. You, however, happen to like yourself just how you are thankyouverymuch! The more they confronted, the more you tuned out, thought of something else, resolved to be more the same than ever before!
Likewise 'freedom of speech' is really only tolerated by people when they hear what they want to hear. But the freedom of speech inside your mind is tolerated by noone except you. & only you (unless you've symptoms of schizophrenia) It's really easy to somehow offend someone, no matter how rational or truthful it is that you speak. But it's easier to become obsessed with the thought of being liked by everyone, or at least not disliked, which might lead to this conformity in expressed opinions, while repressing what one truly thinks/feels.
Obama is now said to feel liberated, in the sense that he can finally say what, and do as, he pleases — without much worry any more over political ramifications. Trump was always a celebrity, who now tweets & phones his praise/insults to fellow politicians, athletes, & media kingpins. But Obama entered & enjoys the celebrity world too. He's comfortable with Jay Z/Beyoncé, reads mean tweets, picks the Sweet 16 on live tv & has reminded that he’s the LeBron of the Teleprompter, who doesn’t choke under the spotlights. Both see PopCulture+Presidency as a fitting together perfectly. You might think that the formulas that won Trump & Obama’s presidential campaigns would be diametrically opposed. Plenty, but not that much. Obama’s team presented a collective message, while Trump’s team often watched as their candidate went off-message. Obama’s calm, measured sentiments resembled the ones voiced by the civil rights movement of the 1960s; Trump cast himself as an underdog squaring up to a greater evil, an approach that seemed akin to the Reagan campaigns of the 80s.
But they're all respectfully elected Presidents.
I've preferred Trump over Hillary from the beginning. Sure, I've ridiculed Trump on twitter just like the rest of you (he had it coming!) but never thought/said he was an evil man. An Idiot often but never as Bad as they say. And Obama was/is a good man, sadly.
Thank you. I wonder if the notion that "my guy can do no wrong" and "your guy can not do anything right" came from teachers. What I can recall is that in our history classes -- one guy was a hero and the other guy a villain. ? Cochise?
You're welcome. : )
Yes, exactly. The hero/villain, right/wrong folklore has been effective since the kindergarten and still works as an unofficial life assignment.
Haven't we learned enough?
For me, respect has nothing to do with position. Respect is a double sided coin. If someone respect others he/she will be easier respected by others.
That's why I can not respect Trump. Because he does not respect others. This is clear if you look at his tweets, no media bias.
I do have respect for Obama, but also reservations on a lot of points.
Anyway, if someone is a president it does not mean automatically that you have to respect him/her.
I respect Trump for his determination to fight Terrorists.
Yes you can. Why not? You can like and respect every President.
BTW, look into the history of how Richard Nixon conspired in 1968 to end the Johnson Admin peace talks to end the Viet Nam war. This not conspiracy stuff anymore, it has been confirmed by one of Nixon's highest aides. Nixon used Kissinger to get vital information from the Johnson Admin and backchannels to the Diem regime in S. Viet Nam to get them to hold off on making a peace deal until he was President (which they did, and then there was no peace and the war dragged on for many more years). I don't see this as saving anyone's lives in the U.S. or in the Viet Nam region. Nixon is responsible for the deaths of perhaps millions, as the Viet Nam war dragged on, including many US servicemen.
John you must read The Lost Mandate of Heaven. It is about the betrayal of Diem. Of course this is an area of great interest in my home with a Vietnamese immigrant mom and wife.The area of study takes time and effort. Father in law jumped with Ranger
No. I don't like trump but I do Respect SOME of his decision. But I would choose obama any day. To each is own
That is really a good course to follow. I tend to like men of power who succeed. Maybe it is a daddy complex thing. All these folks saying they like him as a man is interesting. Hmm I seem to like men of action even if I do not like the action.
Personally I have no respect For trump but then I always disliked the man. I do not hate him but I am not a fan. i like and respect "Obama". But it is the prerogative of the individual to like and respect and their decision on whom they place that like and respect on has no bearing on the individual. I am reserving my judgement on Trump as President. I do not see him having Mexico pay for him to build a Wall. I do see him because of his stated policies causing a lot of greif for The U S of A. Let us wait and see. Ask yourselves how could Hilary get more votes than him and still lose the election.
Thanks for your comment John. I am not a good one to ask about popular verses states rights. I come from a non-populated state. And I don't want New Yorkers telling me what is right on my ranch. I am a fan of the electoral college and rural rights.
Eric, you basically reject an democratic system. A system where every vote is the same.
Yes that is accurate. The US is not and probably will never be a direct democracy where the majority completely dictates to the minority. We would have no civil rights. Democratic Republics work better. Like ours since about 1778 or so. Federalism?
So you prefer it that a minority tells a majority what to do. To me that's an unjust system. Like everybody is equal, but some are more equal then others..
Well Peter we basically have that with things like, Black Civil Rights, Gay rights, Children's Rights, Senior Rights. So sure Peter in our constitutional government the minorities are dictating certain things.
Eric I don't buy that kind of reasoning. This 'minority' was chosen by a majority.A government is a selected group of professionals. And if correctly,it is a representation of the majority
If the government is only reperesenting 10% you have a prob.
Then we have a problem in this country. Way less than 10% of us are; LGBT, handicapped, only speak a foreign language, are injured Vets,or pregnant mothers. Folks who are in the minority are protected in this country. Only population matters?
Eric your reasoning is false. The LGBT movement does not rule your country, neither disabled people. All the minority's together makes the population. And together you make rules for everybody. That's how it should be.
Peter, you make great points. There must be a balance of all 3 branches of Gov. It has worked and still does "If the government is only reperesenting 10% you have a prob." Yes if the gov. was then we may have a prob.
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